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On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote:
Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d0/Gipsy_Kings_Album.jpeg)
I guess they should rename themselves to "Romani Kings" then, eh?
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On September 28 2011 10:02 Bigpet wrote:
I am not saying that there isn't a problem with the culture that some (or most, I really don't know) of them practice but using their ethnicity as a direct causation of them being criminal is wrong and alienates them as a whole.
I haven't read every post in the thread, but I'd be surprised if a significant portion of the posts did something like this. The ethnicity has a culture attached to it and that culture is the issue. It is not because of what they are, as any reasonable person would admit, but because of how they live or choose to live. This is a problem closely associated with their ethnicity because their culture is closely associated with their ethnicity. There isn't really any crossover between that culture and the rest of the society.
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote:
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
I understand where you are coming from with this comment, but you have to understand that this is what they are commonly called outside of their own community. At least in a casual setting. It is a word that people will use first and not merely a slur people reach for in anger. I am well acquainted with the name Romani but if I use that word when speaking to an international community such as this, it will often need explaining.
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On September 28 2011 09:28 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:23 askTeivospy wrote:
I'm from canada and everything that I've read from european people regarding gypsies over the past few years is all bad news so I'm inclined to believe its less racism and more realism. :\ i could be wrong (i hope im wrong), but im inclined to agree as well... for all the people bringing up Hitler, he believed that Germany was winning WW1 and that Jews at home backstabbed the German nation by surrendering. people here talking about gypsies are bringing up reports of crime. They are in no way comparable in terms of measurability
Just FYI, what you are talking about is the so called Dolchstosslegende (loosely translates to Stab-in-the-back-legend ), which was widely believed by right wing people in Germany after WW1. It didnt say the jews had backstabbed germany, but rather the german social democrats did, thats one of the reasons why the weimar republic, which was a democratic system that was in place inbetween both worldwars, failed. just look it up on wikipedia.
And gypsies are a problem here too. They fake injuries like them being deaf or smth just to beg for even more money. When i drive to work there are gypsies trying to wash my front shield and if you say you dont want it they just dont care, do it anyways and want money. Like really aggressively asking for money, banging on your car roof and stuff. There are also young boys, maybe 14/15 driving with the subway all day and selling hard drugs on the ride, everyone knows that, but you cant stop it because they got nothing to lose.
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On September 28 2011 00:26 vanhio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 00:05 drdreggor wrote:On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote:
But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT ! Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends. You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are. Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes. Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
Actually its very possible that you've lived in a country for 25 years and have no clue about what's going on in your society. As demonstrated by your made up statistics you base your information on rumors that you and your friends percieve to be true only becuase they can't be proven wrong without looking into the matter seriously.
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe you percieve 90% of the romani population to be discraceful criminals because the are the visible minority? The romani are a people that live mostly outside of society. Obviously you wouldn't come in contact with peaceful families as much as the bad ones becasue they don't cross your path.You only hear about the bad ones in the paper or from rumors other people tell (that are sometimes pure bullshit). If they were as bad as you say. You would have witnessed hundreds of robberies in your lifetime done by romani. I doubt you even witnessed one.
Also you should be old enough to understand that your own hatred is fueling the criminal people to keep doign what they're doing and feeding their recruitment of other romani.
Sure its fine to critisize a culture for what you don't like about it. But you don't start painting the people as if they were animals of lesser importance than the rest of humanity. Please realise that you have prejudice in your society that clouds your mind.
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On September 28 2011 09:06 Nakata wrote:You should see this. http://vbox7.com/play:72f9da41This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
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On September 28 2011 10:34 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:06 Nakata wrote:You should see this. http://vbox7.com/play:72f9da41This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies. Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it. Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
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On September 28 2011 10:34 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:06 Nakata wrote:You should see this. http://vbox7.com/play:72f9da41This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies. Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it. Just saying.
Visited Berlin for 2 days, had to deal with Gypses bothering me both days several times.... Just saying.
I believe this to be a very real issue. Even if the problems are only so bad as ours (which i highly doubt), ethnicity in general may not mix as well in Europe as they do in America. We are supposed to be a country comprised of several foreign peoples. Europe is not the same.
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On September 28 2011 10:39 probob wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:34 Medrea wrote:On September 28 2011 09:06 Nakata wrote:You should see this. http://vbox7.com/play:72f9da41This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies. Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it. Just saying. Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
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On September 28 2011 10:34 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:06 Nakata wrote:You should see this. http://vbox7.com/play:72f9da41This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies. Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it. Just saying.
Uh no..no they don't do that in America and I work in really bad shitholes.
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On September 28 2011 10:25 Koobecaf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:02 Bigpet wrote:
I am not saying that there isn't a problem with the culture that some (or most, I really don't know) of them practice but using their ethnicity as a direct causation of them being criminal is wrong and alienates them as a whole.
I haven't read every post in the thread, but I'd be surprised if a significant portion of the posts did something like this. The ethnicity has a culture attached to it and that culture is the issue. It is not because of what they are, as any reasonable person would admit, but because of how they live or choose to live. This is a problem closely associated with their ethnicity because their culture is closely associated with their ethnicity. There isn't really any crossover between that culture and the rest of the society. Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote:
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred. I understand where you are coming from with this comment, but you have to understand that this is what they are commonly called outside of their own community. At least in a casual setting. It is a word that people will use first and not merely a slur people reach for in anger. I am well acquainted with the name Romani but if I use that word when speaking to an international community such as this, it will often need explaining.
Black people used to be called niggers. Not just as a slur but used by people in a casual setting. Bear in mind that the uncomfortable feeling you got when you read my words is no different from what I get when I read the word gypsy.
I also APOLOGISE for using the N word to anyone that may be offended by it. I don't want to promote use of that word and only used it to show how extreme it is and how extreme the it's counterpart will probably seem in 50 years.
I also want to note that I'm not romani myself but still feel disguisted by the use of derogatory words as if they were acceptable for public use.
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On September 28 2011 10:42 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:34 Medrea wrote:On September 28 2011 09:06 Nakata wrote:You should see this. http://vbox7.com/play:72f9da41This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies. Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it. Just saying. Uh no..no they don't do that in America and I work in really bad shitholes.
Thats just the same shit different day then. Why is it a shit hole? United Way is all over the damn place with these projects.
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On September 28 2011 10:02 Bigpet wrote:
So here's the problem with the whole "it's not racist, it's true" thing:
Gypsy is a synonym for an ethnic group called the Romani people. If you don't see labeling a whole ethnic group as criminals as racist then I don't know what is.
I am not saying that there isn't a problem with the culture that some (or most, I really don't know) of them practice but using their ethnicity as a direct causation of them being criminal is wrong and alienates them as a whole.
You may not use the term Gypsy as a description of their ethnicity but that's how that term is defined. It may be petty semantics but it's important.
Lots of comments in this thread seem borderline racist with some being obviously racist. However, having lived in Bulgaria for a long time and still visiting multiple times every year, I simply struggle to remember anything even remotely positive I have seen or heard about gypsies. People claiming that all gypsies are scum are probably prejudiced, but all the comments stating incidents involving gypsies (stealing, robbing, refusing to let their kids being educated, selling their kids, marrying their kids at ages lower than 10, destroying homes given to them by the government and a plethora of other things) are unfortunately not fictive. It also seems like those problems occur among a significant majority of the gypsies...
Their ethnicity is not a cause for being criminal, but it seems like it gives one an exorbitantly high chance of becoming a criminal
That being said, I want to remind you again that the protests in Bulgaria are not targeting gypsies in general. They aim at the corrupt authorities and a single mafia boss, who happens to be gypsy. That scumbag has been doing whatever he feels like doing, terrorizing many people over a long period of time until a few days ago when he decided to organize the killing of a boy close to a person he hated.
To understant why people are outraged, I translated the comment of the killed boy's father, who witnessed the murder:
"That guy, when he saw us, accelerated from all the way to the other end of the street, drove over the grass overthere and stopped right in front of us. My son was standing in front of the bus and shouted: "Stop, where are you going?". And that guy started the bus and hit my son, and then slowly, slowly drove over him. I saw that he squashed him and started screaming, I was hitting the driver's cabin: " STOP, STOP! STOP!! You are crushing my kid!!!" That guy got my child under the bus and dragged him for 20 metres. I ran and held him in my arms: "Get up my son. Get up, son!" And he died...
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On September 28 2011 10:42 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:34 Medrea wrote:On September 28 2011 09:06 Nakata wrote:You should see this. http://vbox7.com/play:72f9da41This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies. Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it. Just saying. Uh no..no they don't do that in America and I work in really bad shitholes.
I assume he's talking about places like Queensbridge.
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1) Gypsies are an ethnic group.
2) Not many cares about that ethnic group, positively or negatively, if you live your life like a normal person.
3) Most nations in Europe have trouble with Gypsies because they don't really, as a whole, respect the law or have common courtesy - at all. They can also be found in pretty much every city as beggars. Not that a majority of them are beggars - simply that it seems like a large part (significant minority) of the beggars are foreign gypsies.
4) They, as a whole, are extremely focused on family & extended family, to the point that they don't seem care about anyone else. Therefore it's rare that they form close personal relationships with whoever live where they are, and so they don't integrate much into normal society. They don't, as a rule, put down roots anywhere. That's sort of the thing.
5) Child marriage, child thieves, fake children to get government funded child support, etc, are all true stories, that regularly pops up in the news, and reinforce the popular image of gypsies as negative, overall.
6) Children are normally taken out of school to be put to 'work' very young.
7) Government have a hard time knowing how to deal with them, because ... they don't want to take away all the children to be raised by the government or put up for adoption, even though if 'normal' people treated their children that way, they would lose them. They can't be easily deported, because no nation really wants to admit that they are 'theirs' - nor do gypsies normally claim to belong to any nation. You can't just put the entire population in jail either ... this have led to historically bad shit, like forced sterilization, to combat 'the problem' ...
Now here's the kicker though ...
Because they are so universally disliked, they also suffer from a fair bit of hate crime, they are treated like shit, they have historically been persecuted ... about as much as Jews, actually, but without the benefit of being associated with a major religious figure.
But they aren't doing much to be treated like everyone else either ...
It's like ... well ... 'racism' ... you can make a case for it. A really good one actually. But it's mainly about a culture that brings just about nothing positive to society, and just drains it of resources, and the dislike of that culture grows as the general economic outlook gets worse.
You can see the same, general negative outlook, on poor people, in the US, from republican media. They are just careful not to mention race - even though poor are, dominantly, black. Because 'race' is dangerous in the US.
But really, the reality is that Gypsies are treated badly, because they are poor, a drain on society's resources, and the reason for why they are that, is that they have been historically treated like shit, been poor, persecuted, etc ...
Poverty is actually something you inherit to a large degree, much like everything else ...
More info:
http://worldhaveyoursay.wordpress.com/2008/10/08/on-air-do-we-have-a-gypsy-problem-or-just-a-problem-with-gypsies/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3611584/Im-Irish-I-know-about-the-gipsy-problem.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southeast/series8/week_three.shtml
http://www.signandsight.com/features/1624.html
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2007-06/21/content_898984.htm
http://www.tnr.com/article/environment-energy/89377/poverty-escape-psychology-self-control <- poverty and decision making, extremely interesting.
In a lot of ways, the 'gypsy problem' is the 'inherited poverty' problem of the US ... just, worse, because it's been going on longer, and also - the nations that have to deal with it, are poorer overall, so they have less to spend on trying to fix the problem.
Also, nationalism have been growing stronger in eastern Europe (and parts of western Europe), which leads to a very small minority of people being racists against everyone that aren't 'straight up 10th generation native' - and if you are then Asian black gypsy whatever, that small minority I am sure will be visible to you.
... which leads to the whole, every time something shitty happens, just cry racism, problem ... it might not be racism this time, but it certainly was in some other scenario at some point some other time ...
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On September 28 2011 10:49 Skullflower wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:42 Jayme wrote:On September 28 2011 10:34 Medrea wrote:On September 28 2011 09:06 Nakata wrote:You should see this. http://vbox7.com/play:72f9da41This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies. Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it. Just saying. Uh no..no they don't do that in America and I work in really bad shitholes. I assume he's talking about places like Queensbridge.
A fine example, perhaps the finest in fact. But this takes place all over the country.
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On September 28 2011 10:41 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:39 probob wrote:On September 28 2011 10:34 Medrea wrote:On September 28 2011 09:06 Nakata wrote:You should see this. http://vbox7.com/play:72f9da41This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies. Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it. Just saying. Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ? All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing. We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome. Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
Well federal housing just means housing payed by the government, we have that here too. Its just on another level, gypsies are doing it favela style they dont even have housing just some cardboards put together in the middle inbetween two train stations.
Have you ever seen a gypsy in your life?Edit:Calling out a group of people that leeches off our welfare state so audaciously is not racism.
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On September 28 2011 10:46 ggrrg wrote:
Their ethnicity is not a cause for being criminal, but it seems like it gives one an exorbitantly high chance of becoming a criminal
Their ethnicity gives them a high chance of being born into a family that has a culture that practices and/or tolerates criminal/unethical behavior. Might be a pedantic distinction but an important one in my eyes.
Also I'd like to reiterate what has already been stated. Romani mostly live in isolation and the only ones people usually have encounters with are those that expressly go out to commit crime. Again, I don't have the numbers, so I can't speak to what percentage we are talking about here.
edit: but it seems to be a significant high number considering all the instances throughout history of different regents trying to assimilate them and/or get rid of them. Even the US denied them citizenship based on their ethnicity at one point
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On September 28 2011 11:10 zawk9 wrote:We did the same to several other ethnic groups. Its very misleading to use this as evidence of anything having to do with the natural tendencies of gypsies..
I didn't know that, also it was not intended as a comment on "natural tendencies" but rather on the spread of a certain culture among them.
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Because they are so universally disliked, they also suffer from a fair bit of hate crime, they are treated like shit, they have historically been persecuted ... about as much as Jews, actually, but without the benefit of being associated with a major religious figure.
This also poses an interesting social problem; you've acknowledged that there is definite truth to the cheating and stealing stories. Normally the way society deals with this is through a trial(when they break the law as in the described cases), but how could you reasonably expect a gypsy to receive a fair trial?
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On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote:
Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
It is my opinion that if you don't know whats going on you should not talk about certain things.
There is no "Romani" People. The term "Roma-" is tied up to "the Roman Empire" that saw its fall more than 1700 years ago while Gipsies who are of Indian decent only moved in Eastern Europe in the last 2-300 years.
The name of my country, "Romania" was chosen by Romanians because our language is a latin language in a sea of slavonic languages proving that we are descendants of the mixture of Dacians and Romans after the Roman Empire conquered Dacia.
The "RRoma" fiasco started in the 90's when western countries (France especially) forced our governments hand at integrating gipsies into society being somewhat ignorant if that was possible or not.
In order to forcefully integrate these people into society a ploy was created. At first they announced to the world that they want to be called "RRoma" with double "R"; this was announced only by a few organisations and is still not accepted by the vast gipsy majority. I'm fairily certain you have never met or spoke to a gipsy to at least understand that they call themselves "gipsy" and they want to be called gipsy even though the term is different in different languages.
Then, suddenly after a few years the government and the national media, and the european media, dropped the first "R" silently without people noticing so now they were being called "Roma", after a few more years they have now moved to "Romani" which is the last step in their whole plan.
Why ? Simply because we romanians, in romanian, call ourselves Români while the governments call the gipsies "Romani". Do you see the difference ? Its a minor change that doesn't even exist in the english language, only in Romanian.
So in all international affairs gipsies would now become indistinguishable from Romanians if we condeede and call them "Romani"; a term which the gipsy minority itself rejects.
To give you a comparison; if gipsies moved to your country and suddently your government under pressure from western governments and the EU decided to call them ssvens, after 3 years call them svens and after 5 more years just call them svenskar that would be a 100% representation of what has happened here.
Then, suddenly you start every day with newspaper news about svenskar crimes in Paris, London, Amsterdam, Helsinki and so on and slowly begin to see how all western people now say that they want the svenskar deported from their country and that the svenskar immigrants commit too many crimes and are very dirty.
Then you start to ask yourself WHY are they deporting the svenskar back to sweden ?!!?! Even if the svenskar are now EU citizens and they HAVE THE RIGHT to move to any EU country they wish. If integrating svenskar into society was SO EASY to begin with, and if it CAN be done, WHY are the French, British, Dutch people and so on not integrating the svenskar into their society?
Why has FRANCE decided that it will pay billions to integrate african, muslim asian and so on immigrants into its society but not svenskar ?
Why does modern France DEPORT the svenskar forcefully? How can a EUROPEAN CITIZEN be deported in 2011 by the country that prides itself on having invented democracy and freedom ?
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Oh, John Locke, what hath thou wrought?
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EPT
