Basically, riots have begun in Bulgaria following the murder of a teenage boy by a nephew of a gypsy clan leader. The murder and the accident were intentional. the same thing happened in Romania in 1993 following gypsy criminality in a small village, and the Romanians were forced y the European Court of justice to give compensations to the gypsies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hădăreni_riots Is Europe being hypocritical in the gypsy problem? Because France, Italy and other countries started deporting them, but when Romania and Bulgaria deported gypsies back in 1943 it was considered a "war crime". What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general?
With government's positive discrimination and lifestyle+attitude of majority of gypsies, it's inevitable. Riots going on in Czech republic also, not as big as in Bulgaria yet though.
Sorry, did you just compare the deportation of Rom from France, Europe, Bulgaria et al to the Nazi extermination of groups they deemed undesirable? ...
That aside.. I don't know much about this. Are the people being deported tax payers or legally French/German/Bulgarian citizens?
Edit:
From the Pravda article: Three people were killed in the riots, several others were injured. Up to 800 people took direct participation in the pogroms; approximately 120 were arrested.
Several others were injured and three were murdered. A tragedy without question but calling it a pogrom is inflammatory and sensational.
I'll read more about this once the GSL ends from a more objective news source.
I havnt heard of these riots at all. Has this beeing going on for a longer time or is it recent ?
I know there are large minorities of roma people and that theyre not appreciated there since many hundreds of years back but I didnt realise the opposition it was widespread enough to cause riots.
Can anyone give a reason exactly to why people hate them ? Is there any proof they commit more crimes than any other people of their social standing ? Isnt this likely the result of how people have treated them for 400 years ?
"The people had only one requirement. They wanted all gypsies to leave the village immediately."
That's not really normal, is it? One member of a minority community causes an accident ("...ran over a 19-year-old Bulgarian man.") and they all must leave?
The source seems rather dodgy in general, making statements such as "In Europe, gypsies live in France, Germany and many other countries of Western Europe. They live separately from the society and make their living on drugs, swindling and robbery."
On September 27 2011 21:10 Probe1 wrote: Sorry, did you just compare the deportation of Roma peoples from France, Europe, Bulgaria et al to the Nazi extermination of groups they deemed undesirable? ...
Why do you deem this comparison so far fetched? The step from deportation to extermination isn't THAT huge. It both starts with the idea that these people don't have the right to live (here).
Gypsys have always been a problem in Romania, i didn't know they had been moved or had moved along to Bulgaria.
But the European Union only care about themselves and not about others you should know this by now, its the biggest farce of a system you will ever encounter EVER.
They think the way to solve debt crisis is to through Millions and Millions of EUROs into it and it will sort itself out. And that the big Economys in Europe like Germany and UK should put more money into it because they should do so.....?
If the article is any judge of why then they are thieves, drug peddlers and tricksters.
The ill fame of Bulgarian gypsies spreads far beyond the borders of the poorest country of the European Union. In Europe, gypsies live in France, Germany and many other countries of Western Europe. They live separately from the society and make their living on drugs, swindling and robbery.
Doesn't sound prejudiced at all..
I believe negative stereotypes enforced by what all stereotypes originate from: The worst of the worst representing an entire group, has led to the distrust of gypsies or "The Rom".
The murders happened on the 24th and the protests started on the day after, and there have been protest in most of the big cities in the country happening every day in which a lot of people got arrested.
The ill fame of Bulgarian gypsies spreads far beyond the borders of the poorest country of the European Union. In Europe, gypsies live in France, Germany and many other countries of Western Europe. They live separately from the society and make their living on drugs, swindling and robbery.
Doesn't sound prejudiced at all..
I believe negative stereotypes enforced by what all stereotypes originate from: The worst of the worst representing an entire group, has led to the distrust of gypsies or "The Rom".
Have you ever encountered them? There are THOUSANDS of gypsis from romania who come over to England ILLEGALLY to pick pocket us and to enduce sex slavery. Was a huge documentary on ITV on it about 1-2 years ago.
tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
Lol I lived in Sheffield. Don't go there, we have Roma in America as well even if they are much more obscure among the melting pot. Yes I remember the time when a old gypsy woman tried to snatch my wallet in Paris. I also remember the time I met a really cool Roma girl who was completely normal and didn't fit the stereotype I continually read back on my side of the pond.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
I know there are HUGE problems in Italy with this and it's also made it here but really there are better ways to voice your opinion, calling a group of people a plague, really? That terrorist stuff isn't even funny.
On September 27 2011 21:18 Passion wrote: "The people had only one requirement. They wanted all gypsies to leave the village immediately."
That's not really normal, is it? One member of a minority community causes an accident ("...ran over a 19-year-old Bulgarian man.") and they all must leave?
Dude, it's not about this one "accident", that was just a detonator. The whole village has been terorized by the gypsy clan leader and his familly for LONG time, he's been acting like he's above the law, living from illegal money. By the way, after they ran over the kid, they didn't help him and just ran away.
I don't think it's worth discussing here anyway, people who don't live in countries/areas affected by gypsy problems won't understand the shit rest of us has to go through.
dude you have no idea how wicked gypsies are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask bulgarians, romanians, french or italian people they will all tell you the same.
On September 27 2011 21:18 Passion wrote: "The people had only one requirement. They wanted all gypsies to leave the village immediately."
That's not really normal, is it? One member of a minority community causes an accident ("...ran over a 19-year-old Bulgarian man.") and they all must leave?
I don't think it's worth discussing here anyway, people who don't live in countries/areas affected by gypsy problems won't understand the shit rest of us has to go through.
This is exactly why I feel Finland and Netherlands prevented Bulgaria And Romania from joining the Shengen area (which would allow them to move around most of Europe without any border checks) even if they use reasons like the Gypsies are not treated equal etc.
There are enough bad examples of what having gypsies causes (we've already had plenty of those robbing people at ATM's and such) that I don't think many people really want them to have 'free reign' in Europe.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked jews are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask german, american, english or italian people they will all tell you the same.
Sorry for Godwinning this. I feel the comparison is scarily accurate though.
While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human.
We have the same problem here in Slovenia. I'm from the coast and whenever a group of gypsies come to a local camp wallets and cellphones go missing, it's even worse inland. The biggest problem with them is their neglect for their children. They don't take them to school, insted they drive around during times of communal waste disposal and rummage through trash looking for metal. It's a vicious cycle and they don't want to end it. That's what makes them unfit members of any society.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked jews are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask german, american, english or italian people they will all tell you the same.
Sorry for Godwinning this. I feel the comparison is scarily accurate though.
While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human.
Who said it's the scavenging people have a problem with? It's the stealing, assaulting and even sometimes killing that makes them a problem. Jews were assaulted in Nazi Germany because they were jews. I don't see the least bit of correlation here.
Saying that all gypsies are bad or are happy with the way they live is an ignorant statement, but the majority of the gypsy population just doesn't want to be integrated into society. They are better off living on the back of hard working Bulgarian people. This conflict is just a direct result of the government's lack of effort to find a solution to the gypsy problem.
They don't pay bills, some of them claim benefits and in my home town they even got new apartments, which are now in ruins, "surprisingly". It is natural for Bulgarians to become hostile towards them, I mean it is hard enough for the working class, it is even harder when someone is living at your expense and is not contributing in any way to the nation's welfare. Bulgaria isn't a strong economy and cannot support these people. This it is becoming a growing problem, but the government has neglected this growing divide between the general population and the minorities for too long. I just hope this doesn't grow into a more serious conflict. Bulgaria has enough problems as it is.
On September 27 2011 21:21 Probe1 wrote: If the article is any judge of why then they are thieves, drug peddlers and tricksters.
The ill fame of Bulgarian gypsies spreads far beyond the borders of the poorest country of the European Union. In Europe, gypsies live in France, Germany and many other countries of Western Europe. They live separately from the society and make their living on drugs, swindling and robbery.
Doesn't sound prejudiced at all..
I believe negative stereotypes enforced by what all stereotypes originate from: The worst of the worst representing an entire group, has led to the distrust of gypsies or "The Rom".
Have you ever encountered them? There are THOUSANDS of gypsis from romania who come over to England ILLEGALLY to pick pocket us and to enduce sex slavery. Was a huge documentary on ITV on it about 1-2 years ago.
They are known for trickery and thievery. You obviously havent encountered them or heard about them before.
ROFL He quotes the Daily Mail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most gypsies in the UK are Irish travellers, there are in comparison few Romanies. The Romanies get so much shit that they don't deserve. What is wrong with respecting other cultural traditions? Oh yeah I kind of forgot that it's our duty as Western Europeans to civilise everybody.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked gypsies are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask bulgarians, romanians, french or italian people they will all tell you the same.
It's sad that I actually agree with this about a HUGE group of people.....I know a lot of people probably will not belive it is this bad but it really is.
On September 27 2011 21:46 Inex wrote: Saying that all gypsies are bad or are happy with the way they live is an ignorant statement, but the majority of the gypsy population just doesn't want to be integrated into society. They are better off living on the back of hard working Bulgarian people. This conflict is just a direct result of the government's lack of effort to find a solution to the gypsy problem.
They don't pay bills, some of them claim benefits and in my home town they even got new apartments, which are now in ruins, "surprisingly". It is natural for Bulgarians to become hostile towards them, I mean it is hard enough for the working class, it is even harder when someone is living at your expense and is not contributing in any way to the nation's welfare. Bulgaria isn't a strong economy and cannot support these people. This it is becoming a growing problem, but the government has neglected this growing divide between the general population and the minorities for too long. I just hope this doesn't grow into a more serious conflict. Bulgaria has enough problems as it is.
Exactely, supporting disenfrachised minorities that have no choice in their situation is one thing. Giving money and living quarters to people who don't send their childern to school, don't work/pay taxes and survive off rummaging through trash and stealing is just wrong, no wonder people are getting agressive.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked jews are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask german, american, english or italian people they will all tell you the same.
Sorry for Godwinning this. I feel the comparison is scarily accurate though.
While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human.
that's a stupid comparison and you're stupid for coming up with it. "While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human." LOL. look i know that you're living up there so you're a subject to fuckload of multiculturalist and leftist bullshit, but seriously, you shouldn't be brainwashed like that. cloud is indeed right, 90% of gypsies are scum, living out of state support and crime, while basically turning any place they come to into a ghetto. and i'm not even being racist here, i'm just telling you what the reality in the eastern europe is.
On September 27 2011 21:46 Inex wrote: Saying that all gypsies are bad or are happy with the way they live is an ignorant statement, but the majority of the gypsy population just doesn't want to be integrated into society. They are better off living on the back of hard working Bulgarian people. This conflict is just a direct result of the government's lack of effort to find a solution to the gypsy problem.
They don't pay bills, some of them claim benefits and in my home town they even got new apartments, which are now in ruins, "surprisingly". It is natural for Bulgarians to become hostile towards them, I mean it is hard enough for the working class, it is even harder when someone is living at your expense and is not contributing in any way to the nation's welfare. Bulgaria isn't a strong economy and cannot support these people. This it is becoming a growing problem, but the government has neglected this growing divide between the general population and the minorities for too long. I just hope this doesn't grow into a more serious conflict. Bulgaria has enough problems as it is.
This is very well said and isn't right only for Bulgaria, but for many other countries. Everyone please read it before posting ignorant comments about racism and discrimination.
They do not have any work habits, and we do have second generation here, which simple do not have to work, because social welfare financial support is high enough for them..
Cloud, you are very right. The gypsies are not people who can live in a normal society, they don't like education, they don't like work and will do absolutely anything to gain money. Most of them steal, beg on the streets and at crossroads and teach their children to do the same. I'm pretty sure they cannot be helped as a whole. literally there is no solution to integrate them into society.
The french gave them 300 EUR to get on the first plane back to romania. Great solution sarkozy. they came back and found another way to smuggle themselves back into france or other countries.
i would be in charge of law making i would make squatting a crime punishable by community service. if you don't want to do anything beneficial to society you should be forced to do it
i realize i'm pretty extremist but i am so sickened by the current situation and the authorities failure to do anything useful to help the ones that want to be helped
I am amazed at how stupid people can pull out the nazi card whenever they feel like. Like it or not the gypsy problem is there and it can't be solved through conventional methods cause they refuse integration more than anyone else. They litteraly live off criminality and that's pretty much all they can do.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked gypsies are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask bulgarians, romanians, french or italian people they will all tell you the same.
It's sad that I actually agree with this about a HUGE group of people.....I know a lot of people probably will not belive it is this bad but it really is.
Yea i feel the same way.
You dont want to hate a group of people and you know it's wrong, but gypsies make it pretty hard not to hate them.
That being said i'm sure there are many gypsies who dont fit this stereotype, but so many do. I remember watching a documentary on this not too long ago, their lifestyle was so disgusting. Teaching their children to steal and worse.
On September 27 2011 21:21 Probe1 wrote: If the article is any judge of why then they are thieves, drug peddlers and tricksters.
The ill fame of Bulgarian gypsies spreads far beyond the borders of the poorest country of the European Union. In Europe, gypsies live in France, Germany and many other countries of Western Europe. They live separately from the society and make their living on drugs, swindling and robbery.
Doesn't sound prejudiced at all..
I believe negative stereotypes enforced by what all stereotypes originate from: The worst of the worst representing an entire group, has led to the distrust of gypsies or "The Rom".
Have you ever encountered them? There are THOUSANDS of gypsis from romania who come over to England ILLEGALLY to pick pocket us and to enduce sex slavery. Was a huge documentary on ITV on it about 1-2 years ago.
They are known for trickery and thievery. You obviously havent encountered them or heard about them before.
ROFL He quotes the Daily Mail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most gypsies in the UK are Irish travellers, there are in comparison few Romanies. The Romanies get so much shit that they don't deserve. What is wrong with respecting other cultural traditions? Oh yeah I kind of forgot that it's our duty as Western Europeans to civilise everybody.
i QUOTED the newspaper link detailing the source of my argument, Gypsies are NOT Travellers. I did not quote TRAVELLERS in the UK i quoted about the Gypsies who came over from Romania to pick pocket us which was a huge underground black market buisness set up by the ROMANIAN Gypsies not the Irish Travellers which dont pay council tax -_-.
If you read the paper or even google it you will see my point. A huge documentary in london underground stations showing the amount of romanian gypsy children who are pick pocketing people in subways.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked jews are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask german, american, english or italian people they will all tell you the same.
Sorry for Godwinning this. I feel the comparison is scarily accurate though.
While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human.
that's a stupid comparison and you're stupid for coming up with it. "While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human." LOL. look i know that you're living up there so you're a subject to fuckload of multiculturalist and leftist bullshit, but seriously, you shouldn't be brainwashed like that. cloud is indeed right, 90% of gypsies are scum, living out of state support and crime, while basically turning any place they come to into a ghetto. and i'm not even being racist here, i'm just telling you what the reality in the eastern europe is.
I have to bold this part, for a few years now small groups of Gypsies have been coming to Finland during the summer and they actually built ghetto-like 'villages' into the middle of the capital here.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked jews are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask german, american, english or italian people they will all tell you the same.
Sorry for Godwinning this. I feel the comparison is scarily accurate though.
While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human.
that's a stupid comparison and you're stupid for coming up with it. "While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human." LOL. look i know that you're living up there so you're a subject to fuckload of multiculturalist and leftist bullshit, but seriously, you shouldn't be brainwashed like that. cloud is indeed right, 90% of gypsies are scum, living out of state support and crime, while basically turning any place they come to into a ghetto. and i'm not even being racist here, i'm just telling you what the reality in the eastern europe is.
See my post at the end of page 1. Persecution based on race/belief is wrong. Persecution because you break the law... isn't that the definition of persecution? Just to be clear, I'm agreeing with you.
I just want to clarify, when you talk about how gypsies should "integrate into society", what exactly do you mean by that? You basically mean stop being gypsies, don't you?
On September 27 2011 21:43 m00nchile wrote: We have the same problem here in Slovenia. I'm from the coast and whenever a group of gypsies come to a local camp wallets and cellphones go missing, it's even worse inland. The biggest problem with them is their neglect for their children. They don't take them to school, insted they drive around during times of communal waste disposal and rummage through trash looking for metal. It's a vicious cycle and they don't want to end it. That's what makes them unfit members of any society.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked jews are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask german, american, english or italian people they will all tell you the same.
Sorry for Godwinning this. I feel the comparison is scarily accurate though.
While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human.
Who said it's the scavenging people have a problem with? It's the stealing, assaulting and even sometimes killing that makes them a problem. Jews were assaulted in Nazi Germany because they were jews. I don't see the least bit of correlation here.
Stealing, scavenging - meh, they're both pretty much the same. As for assault and murder - do you honestly believe that every gypsy takes part in this, that there's some genetic gypsy-only murder-and-assault-gene? Of course there isn't. Stop acting like it's some inherent flaw with the people as a whole.
If their culture fosters such impulses though, then that's a serious problem which must be dealt with, but it has nothing to do with race. Claiming it to be is ignorant, insulting and bigoted.
As for jews, they were very disliked before the second world war in pretty much the entire developed world. Had not the Holocaust been so specifically targetted and caused so unfathomably many deaths, the jewish people would not have earned any of the sympathy they got post-war, and would still be regarded as a "plague to humanity" by large numbers.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked jews are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask german, american, english or italian people they will all tell you the same.
Sorry for Godwinning this. I feel the comparison is scarily accurate though.
While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human.
that's a stupid comparison and you're stupid for coming up with it. "While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human." LOL. look i know that you're living up there so you're a subject to fuckload of multiculturalist and leftist bullshit, but seriously, you shouldn't be brainwashed like that. cloud is indeed right, 90% of gypsies are scum, living out of state support and crime, while basically turning any place they come to into a ghetto. and i'm not even being racist here, i'm just telling you what the reality in the eastern europe is.
If they're able to live off of state support and not return anything to society (through taxes or work), then it sounds like it's your ruleset that's the problem. Attack the root of the problem (a system allowing abuse) instead of the consequences (a people abusing the system) of it.
And sure, I'll agree that 90% of gypsies are scum, probably. That said, 90% of the entire human population is scum, though.
On September 27 2011 21:52 aTnClouD wrote: I am amazed at how stupid people can pull out the nazi card whenever they feel like. Like it or not the gypsy problem is there and it can't be solved through conventional methods cause they refuse integration more than anyone else. They litteraly live off criminality and that's pretty much all they can do.
So you propose to kill them? If ever a Nazi comparison was justified, then in answer to your bullshit.
On September 27 2011 21:52 3Form wrote: I just want to clarify, when you talk about how gypsies should "integrate into society", what exactly do you mean by that? You basically mean stop being gypsies, don't you?
WE mean stop living on welfare, stop robbing, start working and send their children to school. There are no problems or hate towards black minority or asian minority here (and I'm sure it's the case for most countries), yet almost everyone has problems with gypsy minority. How can you explain that?
in my entire worldview the only people whose way of life i cannot support are the roma gypsies, and thats simply because of how they treat their children, as commodities, cheap source of labor and so on those children do NOT go to school, even when local communities and the government encourage and even try to enforce some level of education
crime and all the rest are a natural by-product of this neglect, for how else is a person to survive after having received zero tools to work with, and then the cycle is repeated
On September 27 2011 21:43 m00nchile wrote: We have the same problem here in Slovenia. I'm from the coast and whenever a group of gypsies come to a local camp wallets and cellphones go missing, it's even worse inland. The biggest problem with them is their neglect for their children. They don't take them to school, insted they drive around during times of communal waste disposal and rummage through trash looking for metal. It's a vicious cycle and they don't want to end it. That's what makes them unfit members of any society.
edit:
On September 27 2011 21:42 plated.rawr wrote:
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked jews are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask german, american, english or italian people they will all tell you the same.
Sorry for Godwinning this. I feel the comparison is scarily accurate though.
While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human.
Who said it's the scavenging people have a problem with? It's the stealing, assaulting and even sometimes killing that makes them a problem. Jews were assaulted in Nazi Germany because they were jews. I don't see the least bit of correlation here.
Stealing, scavenging - meh, they're both pretty much the same. As for assault and murder - do you honestly believe that every gypsy takes part in this, that there's some genetic gypsy-only murder-and-assault-gene? Of course there isn't. Stop acting like it's some inherent flaw with the people as a whole.
If their culture fosters such impulses though, then that's a serious problem which must be dealt with, but it has nothing to do with race. Claiming it to be is ignorant, insulting and bigoted.
As for jews, they were very disliked before the second world war in pretty much the entire developed world. Had not the Holocaust been so specifically targetted and caused so unfathomably many deaths, the jewish people would not have earned any of the sympathy they got post-war, and would still be regarded as a "plague to humanity" by large numbers.
Their culture is based on doing whatever the hell they want with complete disregard for the law or anybody else. In a culture like that, assault and murder come by much quicker. It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with lifestyle. I'm repeating my self, but hey. Whenever we have communal waste disposal, gypsies come rummaging through trash looking for metal and they bring their kids (as young as 6 or 7) with them. Why send your kids to school when you can theach them such wonderfull things like stealing and trash picking.
On September 27 2011 21:51 Manimal_pro wrote: Cloud, you are very right. The gypsies are not people who can live in a normal society, they don't like education, they don't like work and will do absolutely anything to gain money. Most of them steal, beg on the streets and at crossroads and teach their children to do the same. I'm pretty sure they cannot be helped as a whole. literally there is no solution to integrate them into society.
The french gave them 300 EUR to get on the first plane back to romania. Great solution sarkozy. they came back and found another way to smuggle themselves back into france or other countries.
i would be in charge of law making i would make squatting a crime punishable by community service. if you don't want to do anything beneficial to society you should be forced to do it
i realize i'm pretty extremist but i am so sickened by the current situation and the authorities failure to do anything useful to help the ones that want to be helped
Is it correct that the situation was better during the communist times? If so, what has changed?
On September 27 2011 21:52 3Form wrote: I just want to clarify, when you talk about how gypsies should "integrate into society", what exactly do you mean by that? You basically mean stop being gypsies, don't you?
Yea, because "being a gypsy" basically means: 1) not having a job 2) living off state support 3) having a fuckload of kids to get more money from 2) 4) not sending your kids to school and instead preparing them to live just like you do 5) occasionally partake on criminal activities because it's just another way to get money I don't see how you can justify that and say that we shouldn't be so hard on them since it's jsut their culture.. lol.
I have a question from someone from the UK, have you ever seen the movie "Snatch" they have these people who live in caravans called "pikies" are those like UK gypsies?
WTF is wrong with this thread, it's fucking 1933 all over again.
People will never learn.
Some gypsies steal things. Others don't. Most indulge in shady activities, because they're outcasts, and that's what outcasts do in general.
Some jews were rich. Others were poor. Most were involved in small businesses or the financial world, because they were not allowed to posess land, and landless people must climb the social ladder through other means as banks and trade.
I'm so sad that coming to TL today made me understand the growth of nazism a little better.
On September 27 2011 21:58 ondik wrote: WE mean stop living on welfare, stop robbing, start working and send their children to school. There are no problems or hate towards black minority or asian minority here (and I'm sure it's the case for most countries), yet almost everyone has problems with gypsy minority. How can you explain that?
You don't have a big amount of Africans and Asians. With 10 000 000 of foreigners, France has, and trust me, the hate is just the same. You're just trying to justify your primitive reaction and make it look like a logical, reasonable opinion.
On September 27 2011 21:51 Manimal_pro wrote: Cloud, you are very right. The gypsies are not people who can live in a normal society, they don't like education, they don't like work and will do absolutely anything to gain money. Most of them steal, beg on the streets and at crossroads and teach their children to do the same. I'm pretty sure they cannot be helped as a whole. literally there is no solution to integrate them into society.
The french gave them 300 EUR to get on the first plane back to romania. Great solution sarkozy. they came back and found another way to smuggle themselves back into france or other countries.
i would be in charge of law making i would make squatting a crime punishable by community service. if you don't want to do anything beneficial to society you should be forced to do it
i realize i'm pretty extremist but i am so sickened by the current situation and the authorities failure to do anything useful to help the ones that want to be helped
Is it correct that the situation was better during the communist times? If so, what has changed?
It was simply better because everyone had to work during the communist times - you didn't work, you went to jail. Thus, gypsies were forced to work and they were integrated into the society, less or more. There was also a lot less of them here back then. Not justifying communism in any way. Fuck communism.
On September 27 2011 21:18 Passion wrote: That's not really normal, is it? One member of a minority community causes an accident ("...ran over a 19-year-old Bulgarian man.") and they all must leave?
Well, there was a lot of tension and problems even before, this is not the reason for these riots and demands, this is only the occasion (hell, I'm not sure I'm translating my thoughts correctly).
The gypsis are a constant problem in Bulgaria and in the concrete area where the .. hm ... 'accident' happened, there were a lot of conflicts with them, the gypsis are united in a sort of a criminal clan and are terrorising the locals (AFAIK, I live in a other area, I may be wrong). The relatives of the killed boy claim that there were death threats from the said clan before his demise. And the head of the clan was insolent enough to respond to the riots with "Dont push us". What, really?
So, you see, this isnt your usual ran-over-by-a-car accident.
On September 27 2011 22:04 Kukaracha wrote: WTF is wrong with this thread, it's fucking 1933 all over again.
People will never learn.
Some gypsies steal things. Others don't. Most indulge in shady activities, because they're outcasts, and that's what outcasts do in general.
Some jews were rich. Others were poor. Most were involved in small businesses or the financial world, because they were not allowed to posess land, and landless people must climb the social ladder through other means as banks and trade.
I'm so sad that coming to TL today made me understand the growth of nazism a little better.
Disliking groups of people who steal, abuse their children and live off of welfare and whatever their children can steal or sell themselves for = Nazism.
What?
Again, not saying all gypsies do this, but there is a huge correlation, and denying it is just hiding from the truth. I really feel for many of the gypsy children.
Ugh, I had no idea so many countries have this problem. It's present in Croatia too, altho I'd say they're pretty peaceful here; I can't really remember a real incident. They do beg for money on crossroads etc, treat their kids poorly, always look for metals etc, but they never did anything bad to me, and I actually play basketball with some of them on the local playground.
However, responding to the problems that do occur, the only solution would be to end the mentality that their culture seems to have no matter which country they live in. One realistic way to do it would be to make them a country. Then they'll realize that they don't have anyone to leech from and they will possibly grow into fully functional human beings.
The other, cruel way would be to take away their kids, based on the poor treatment, and give them for adoption to normal couples. Then the gypsie 'culture' dies, but no human is killed.
On September 27 2011 22:04 Kukaracha wrote: WTF is wrong with this thread, it's fucking 1933 all over again.
People will never learn.
Some gypsies steal things. Others don't. Most indulge in shady activities, because they're outcasts, and that's what outcasts do in general.
Some jews were rich. Others were poor. Most were involved in small businesses or the financial world, because they were not allowed to posess land, and landless people must climb the social ladder through other means as banks and trade.
I'm so sad that coming to TL today made me understand the growth of nazism a little better.
Just fuck off if you don't see the difference between the situations. Are you retarded or what? "Some gypsies steal things. Others don't" - Most do, minority does not. Living off state support without a will to ever have a job is stealing. "Most indulge in shady activities, because they're outcasts, and that's what outcasts do in general. " - so when you're an outcast, you steal instead of trying to integrate, and it's okay? LOL. Jews didn't hurt anybody and their persecution was based on racism. Not the case with most of the gypsies here.
OK, first off, this problem doesn't have any sort of racial hatred to it. It's an act vs. crime and corruption in Bulgaria, rather then vs. gypsies. But sadly it has created a lot of tension in the wrong direction, mainly ticked off by Rupert Murdock's bTV media outlet in here, who are just after cheap sensations. The main protests were vs. Kiril Rashkov and his family, who plagued the area of over a decade now. The police and the authorities have done nothing to prevent it and the people from that area has risen up to ask for their expulsion from the area. The murder of the 19 years old boy was the spark that caused that flame to burst out. In the following protests, another young man died due to heart failure (he was reported to have an artificial clamp or w/e on his heart). In the early stages of the protests, a member of the Rashkov family got in a car and drove thru a crowd of people, injuring quite a few. I'm sure about at least 4 police officers who have limbs broken, but I'm sure there are other civilians hurt as well. After in the initial protests the house and few of the cars of the Rashkov family caught fire, Kiril Rashkov came on television, threatening that he'll "cut the throats" of those responsible and that he'll "call in reinforcements from other gypsy tribes". In the aftermath, the gypsy head court of justice, known as "The Meshkere", sentenced Kiril Rashkov to death by hanging, but since that court has no real value, the sentence can't be performed and has absolutely no jurisdictial value. The actions of the court mean that pretty much no other gypsy clan would aid the Rashkov family, so there's no ground for racial hatred. Of course, we have the usual nationalistic parties, trying to "ride the protest", but the people from the area are pretty much neglecting the political side of things. The only political aspect of the whole deal is that all the authorities haven't done their job already and that had to happen. Gypsies from all over the country are scared to let their kids to school and refuse to go to work themselves, due to random, unorganized, shady activities by nationalistic bikers, but the main line is that this protest isn't targeting the gypsies.
i have no clue with how it was in the communist era, because i'm born in 87, but ever since my childhood i clearly remember gypsies being the dirty, lazy, double-crossing components of society. it's how they how they have always been.
IMO there is no solution for them, only for their children. in romania the first 10 grades in school are mandatory for any child but who cares about that. They gypsy parents get fined because their children are abandoning school at a young age. Do they care? No, because they don't pay fines, ever
On September 27 2011 22:07 niteReloaded wrote: The other, cruel way would be to take away their kids, based on the poor treatment, and give them for adoption to normal couples. Then the gypsie 'culture' dies, but no human is killed.
We did this with the Native Americans, it worked pretty well.
On September 27 2011 22:07 niteReloaded wrote: Ugh, I had no idea so many countries have this problem. It's present in Croatia too, altho I'd say they're pretty peaceful here; I can't really remember a real incident. They do beg for money on crossroads etc, treat their kids poorly, always look for metals etc, but they never did anything bad to me, and I actually play basketball with some of them on the local playground.
However, responding to the problems that do occur, the only solution would be to end the mentality that their culture seems to have no matter which country they live in. The only somewhat realistic way to do it would be to make them a country. Then they'll realize that they don't have anyone to leech from and they will possibly grow into fully functional human beings.
The other, cruel way would be to take away their kids, based on the poor treatment, and give them for adoption to normal couples. Then the gypsie 'culture' dies, but no human is killed.
Yea, you cant really make them a country, that's just not possible. You need to take their children away when they're being abused, and send them to jail/institutions when they treat people like that. Need to just enforce the law basically.
On September 27 2011 22:04 Kukaracha wrote: WTF is wrong with this thread, it's fucking 1933 all over again.
People will never learn.
Some gypsies steal things. Others don't. Most indulge in shady activities, because they're outcasts, and that's what outcasts do in general.
Some jews were rich. Others were poor. Most were involved in small businesses or the financial world, because they were not allowed to posess land, and landless people must climb the social ladder through other means as banks and trade.
I'm so sad that coming to TL today made me understand the growth of nazism a little better.
In my country, schools exist solely for gypsy children. Before you ask, it's not illegal for gypsy children to attent regular school, these schools are set up in areas with prevalent gypsy population and teachers go door to door to encourage parents to enroll their children (for free ofc). These kinds of programs have the capacity to fix the gypsy problem in a generation or 2, but won't. Because gypsy parents still keep their children out of school and teach them begging, stealing and trash picking. These kinds of programs have existed for many years, not to mention welfare and free housing, but the prevailing problem is that these people don't want to change for the better and drag their kids along. How exactely are you equating this situation to piling people into cattle carts and taking them to death camps?
On September 27 2011 22:06 Deadlyfish wrote: Disliking groups of people who steal, abuse their children and live off of welfare and whatever their children can steal or sell themselves for = Nazism.
What?
Again, not saying all gypsies do this, but there is a huge correlation, and denying it is just hiding from the truth. I really feel for many of the gypsy children.
Do you actually know people from the gipsy community? Or are you simply conveying rumours and general statements?
Exactly.
Oh look at me, I think BLACK PEOPLE like chicken, and they're thieves too, but I'm not racist, noooo.
On September 27 2011 22:07 niteReloaded wrote: Ugh, I had no idea so many countries have this problem. It's present in Croatia too, altho I'd say they're pretty peaceful here; I can't really remember a real incident. They do beg for money on crossroads etc, treat their kids poorly, always look for metals etc, but they never did anything bad to me, and I actually play basketball with some of them on the local playground.
However, responding to the problems that do occur, the only solution would be to end the mentality that their culture seems to have no matter which country they live in. The only somewhat realistic way to do it would be to make them a country. Then they'll realize that they don't have anyone to leech from and they will possibly grow into fully functional human beings.
The other, cruel way would be to take away their kids, based on the poor treatment, and give them for adoption to normal couples. Then the gypsie 'culture' dies, but no human is killed.
Yea, you cant really make them a country, that's just not possible. You need to take their children away when they're being abused, and send them to jail/institutions when they treat people like that. Need to just enforce the law basically.
But they cant do any of that to them due to "Human Rights" crappy laws the EU make. You send 1 to jail you have a civil war erupt in your country. They defend themselves to the extreme thats why they are left alone and left to grow.
European Union is the problem and forever will be in my eyes.
Actually I'm glad that when Romania was added in the European Union, many gypsies stopped "plaguing Romania" and they decided to go and plague other European countries.
I see no solution for gypsies, since their numbers is rapidly increasing. Since the economical situation is going worse, it's way harder for a normal family to decide to have many kids. But for gypsies that's not a problem even if they don't have food or shelter, they have like 10+ kids. And those kids will do the same, their numbers are growing exponentially.
In 300 years, I bet there will be way more Gypsies then Romanians in Romania at least. The last statistics was made in 2002 Ethnic groups in Romania: 89.5% Romanians, 6.6% Hungarians, 2.5% Gypsies, 2% Others
I bet that now in 2011, there are at least 5% Gypsies, because they are breeding like rats, and only very very very very VERY VERY VERY very very very few will even attend schools.
The vast majority continues they gypsies legally, pick pocketing/robbing/begging.
On September 27 2011 22:06 Deadlyfish wrote: Disliking groups of people who steal, abuse their children and live off of welfare and whatever their children can steal or sell themselves for = Nazism.
What?
Again, not saying all gypsies do this, but there is a huge correlation, and denying it is just hiding from the truth. I really feel for many of the gypsy children.
Do you actually know people from the gipsy community? Or are you simply conveying rumours and general statements?
Exactly.
Oh look at me, I think BLACK PEOPLE like chicken, and they're thieves too, but I'm not racist, noooo.
Wait, are you saying disliking black people is the same as disliking gypsies? Again, it's more their culture. I dont dislike them because of their name or race, but because of their culture. Comparing this to actual racism is just beyond stupid.
By your definition you cant dislike any group of people because then you're a racist.
I bet that now in 2011, there are at least 5% Gypsies, because they are breeding like rats, and only very very very very VERY VERY VERY very very very few will even attend schools.
The vast majority continues they gypsies legally, pick pocketing/robbing/begging.
FFS are the mods serious? I'm off TL. Bye all. Bye humanity.
On September 27 2011 22:06 Deadlyfish wrote: Disliking groups of people who steal, abuse their children and live off of welfare and whatever their children can steal or sell themselves for = Nazism.
What?
Again, not saying all gypsies do this, but there is a huge correlation, and denying it is just hiding from the truth. I really feel for many of the gypsy children.
Do you actually know people from the gipsy community? Or are you simply conveying rumours and general statements?
Exactly.
Oh look at me, I think BLACK PEOPLE like chicken, and they're thieves too, but I'm not racist, noooo.
Yea, I know them. I've faced their ignorance and lack of manners and understanding of basical societal norms countless times and I've been damn close to getting robbed/beaten up. Everyone I know has similar experiences with them, especially the few gypsies who are actually trying not to be like the rest. Just. Fuck. Off. This. Thread.
I bet that now in 2011, there are at least 5% Gypsies, because they are breeding like rats, and only very very very very VERY VERY VERY very very very few will even attend schools.
The vast majority continues they gypsies legally, pick pocketing/robbing/begging.
FFS are the mods serious? I'm off TL. Bye all. Bye humanity.
But they are, duh. I've got the feeling that it's you who's the one without any real experience with the bad majority of these people.
noave uses brutal words but it's true. they all have 3+ children to get welfare from the state
anw this is starting to be reallly offtopic. the problem is with the bulgarian cops who are in cahoots with the bulgarian gypsy mobsters and tolerate all their criminal activities
On September 27 2011 22:12 Technique wrote: Any1 watched big fat gypsy wedding? Can see lots and lots of racism towards them in that series (this is in UK and Ireland tho i believe).
Completely different culture my friend. Romanian Gypsies are not the same as TRAVELLERS in the UK. They are irish bred and different.
On September 27 2011 22:04 Kukaracha wrote: WTF is wrong with this thread, it's fucking 1933 all over again.
People will never learn.
Some gypsies steal things. Others don't. Most indulge in shady activities, because they're outcasts, and that's what outcasts do in general.
Some jews were rich. Others were poor. Most were involved in small businesses or the financial world, because they were not allowed to posess land, and landless people must climb the social ladder through other means as banks and trade.
I'm so sad that coming to TL today made me understand the growth of nazism a little better.
Do you even make a difference between Nazism and Hitler's own idealogical views? We are not talking about racism here, gypsies are a social problem, which people, especially government officials, avoid talking about. According to you all problems in society just "happen", because that's how the world works. Just close your eyes and hope that in time it all goes away. Well, it doesn't work like that. We have to find a solution for all of our problems, including the lack of gypsy integration in our society. Saying that gypsies are gypsies is not a way of thinking, it is lack of such.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
The only way of dealing with narrow minded rasists who plauge our society with their ignorance and non exisiting sympathy is to grab a gun and KILL THEM ALL!!
See how your statement is provoking and not so thought out? I can recognize that you have a problem with gypsies in your country but how can you not see the relation between your hatred for a specific group of people with previously done human cleansing etc.
You think that gypsies are murderers and thieves, I think that most other races have that too, but that doesn't mean we should murder them.
I was homeless when I came to France for the first time. So yes, I've been in contact with those people. And yes, they're human beings. Not rats.
You don't know what it is to be an outcast until you're one. Period. "But you should integrate society", this is a stupid as telling a poor man to "just be rich instead".
I remember back in February this year when I changed my ID, there were many gypsies sitting at the line to get their ID, and were like 15 persons with the same "adress", and they were fingerprinted by the local police, because they didn't knew to write/read.
I know that this isn't for TL, but I just saw the gypsies thread... so yeah.
I don't hate them, but they just don't belong, and will never get integrated into a normal society because they don't want to, and you can't force anyone in a democracy.
On September 27 2011 22:19 Kukaracha wrote: I was homeless when I came to France for the first time. So yes, I've been in contact with those people. And yes, they're human beings. Not rats.
You don't know what it is to be an outcast until you're one. Period. "But you should integrate society", this is a stupid as telling a poor man to "just be rich instead".
A poor man is not poor by choice. Not sending your children to school and living off stealing is.
On September 27 2011 22:12 Technique wrote: Any1 watched big fat gypsy wedding? Can see lots and lots of racism towards them in that series (this is in UK and Ireland tho i believe).
Completely different culture my friend. Romanian Gypsies are not the same as TRAVELLERS in the UK. They are irish bred and different.
The only negative stereotype i know of Irish gypsies is the semi-humourous "i'll paint your house but look out, i might steal the ladder" kind of thing. They would often do odd jobs for a bit of cash-in-hand if you "treated them right" but could be trouble if you didn't. My grandad (who was Irish) used to have no qualms about travellers (which is another important difference; english/irish ones tend to move around afaik) stopping off on his land for a week or two. It's a very different situation.
Kukaracha, I think you're the one who doesn't know who gypsies are and how they function. If you knew the facts, you wouldn't be talking the way you're talking.
90% of them DO fit the stereotype.
On the other hand, most of us here would probably be perfectly happy living alongside a NORMAL gypsy.
On September 27 2011 22:19 Kukaracha wrote: I was homeless when I came to France for the first time. So yes, I've been in contact with those people. And yes, they're human beings. Not rats.
You don't know what it is to be an outcast until you're one. Period. "But you should integrate society", this is a stupid as telling a poor man to "just be rich instead".
There are ways to go about the world, there are ways not to go about the world.
Life is tough not easy no one said it was easy. First of all you get an education, then you get a job. Without education you fail to land a reasonable/good job. But there is still jobs out there that pay with limited education needed.
You came to France and were without a home, now you clearly have a home or access to the internet and a computer. This tells me you either got a job from the education you had or you used the goverment who helped u get education and a job.
Gypsies live off themselves and by themselves not accepting help and making there own rules. There is nothing FAIR about that. Why should they be able to do what they want now because no one will stand up to them. That is called Terrorism (Terrorising people to get your own way)
On September 27 2011 22:19 Kukaracha wrote: I was homeless when I came to France for the first time. So yes, I've been in contact with those people. And yes, they're human beings. Not rats.
You don't know what it is to be an outcast until you're one. Period. "But you should integrate society", this is a stupid as telling a poor man to "just be rich instead".
If you're a criminal, thus hurt people, I'm not gonna treat you like a respectable human being. Your outcast point is true, but it doesn't justify being a criminal in any way AND the gypsies we're talking about actually have huge possibilities to get jobs, education and change their lives here - but they don't want to. Go figure.
On September 27 2011 22:19 n0ave wrote: I remember back in February this year when I changed my ID, there were many gypsies sitting at the line to get their ID, and were like 15 persons with the same "adress", and they were fingerprinted by the local police, because they didn't knew to read or write, and they didn't had a signature.
I know that this isn't for TL, but I just saw the gypsies thread... so yeah.
I don't hate them, but they just don't belong, and will never get integrated into a normal society because they don't want to, and you can't force anyone in a democracy.
The state can force people to send their children to school in a democracy, freedom isn't limitless. If those gypsies allegedly live off welfare they are dependent on the state.
On September 27 2011 22:22 niteReloaded wrote: Kukaracha, I think you're the one who doesn't know who gypsies are and how they function. If you knew the facts, you wouldn't be talking the way you're talking.
90% of them DO fit the stereotype.
On the other hand, most of us here would probably be perfectly happy living alongside a NORMAL gypsy.
Yeah show us those numbers!
You're making wild assumptions out of your own experience I guess? Why should we believe that YOU know that 90% of them fit the stereotype, have you made some sort of study we others are unaware of? Please enlighten us.
Most countries in Europe got this same problem. Here in my town there are some gypsies and i must say most are stealing stuff and doing illegal stuff.
They are always crying that they dont got the same rights as everyone but at the same time they steal stuff from our homes and get away with stuff that any other person wouldnt dare to do. They are poor and barely make a enough money to to feed themselfs but they spawn a horde of 10 kids to use them for stealing, begging and living on welfare.
I live on the outskirts of my town and there is quite a nice forest close by but the gypsies started cutting down the trees which is illegal and started building houses in a middle of a fucking forest. Now instead of a forest i see some stupid shacks on the hill and their number is increasing. If anyone else tried to do the same he would get demolished right away but not gypsies because yea they need to get treated differently because you've guessed it "they dont got human rights yo ".
On September 27 2011 22:22 niteReloaded wrote: Kukaracha, I think you're the one who doesn't know who gypsies are and how they function. If you knew the facts, you wouldn't be talking the way you're talking.
90% of them DO fit the stereotype.
On the other hand, most of us here would probably be perfectly happy living alongside a NORMAL gypsy.
Also, noone is saying we should round up every gypsy and give them a kick in the behind. It's about the slum villages they create, not the people who contribute to society and educate their children. And to the people calling our reactions primitive, we have done loads to help the gypsy minority get on their feet, their response is no thanks. That's the reason people are aggravated.
On September 27 2011 21:21 Probe1 wrote: If the article is any judge of why then they are thieves, drug peddlers and tricksters.
The ill fame of Bulgarian gypsies spreads far beyond the borders of the poorest country of the European Union. In Europe, gypsies live in France, Germany and many other countries of Western Europe. They live separately from the society and make their living on drugs, swindling and robbery.
Doesn't sound prejudiced at all..
I believe negative stereotypes enforced by what all stereotypes originate from: The worst of the worst representing an entire group, has led to the distrust of gypsies or "The Rom".
Have you ever encountered them? There are THOUSANDS of gypsis from romania who come over to England ILLEGALLY to pick pocket us and to enduce sex slavery. Was a huge documentary on ITV on it about 1-2 years ago.
They are known for trickery and thievery. You obviously havent encountered them or heard about them before.
ROFL He quotes the Daily Mail!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Most gypsies in the UK are Irish travellers, there are in comparison few Romanies. The Romanies get so much shit that they don't deserve. What is wrong with respecting other cultural traditions? Oh yeah I kind of forgot that it's our duty as Western Europeans to civilise everybody.
I know the Daily Mail isn't the best source but it is true that these travellers are a problem, you've got that whole Dale Farm thing going on at the moment and did you not see the thing about many of them using slave labour a couple weeks ago? Going round homeless shelters offering vulnerable people a "job" and a place to sleep and they end up having to do back breaking work all day, for no pay and virtually no food, they end up malnutrioned and some had been doing it for like 15 years.
On September 27 2011 22:02 LedFarmer wrote: I have a question from someone from the UK, have you ever seen the movie "Snatch" they have these people who live in caravans called "pikies" are those like UK gypsies?
Yeah they're the Irish travellers, they're not quite like they're depicted in that film but that's the gist of it.
On September 27 2011 22:26 Zechs wrote: Incidentally, it didn't take long for Godwin's Law to come into effect in this thread did it?
Probably because "happenings" in 1943 in Bulgaria were mentioned in the OP itself.
On September 27 2011 22:19 Kukaracha wrote: I was homeless when I came to France for the first time. So yes, I've been in contact with those people. And yes, they're human beings. Not rats.
You don't know what it is to be an outcast until you're one. Period. "But you should integrate society", this is a stupid as telling a poor man to "just be rich instead".
A poor man is not poor by choice. Not sending your children to school and living off stealing is.
Of course, because you can magically land a job and have successful children even though you're homeless and have no legal income whatsoever.
"Hey, I'm Paul, I can't write and I have the reputation to pickpocket people, do you have a job for me?"
"Hi, I'm John, Paul's son, I can't write neither and also have the same reputation, can I become an engineer?"
What would you answer, huh? My family never stole anything but we had plenty of people who helped us. If no one had helped us, I wouldn't be here today.
Things just don't "happen" when you want them to. Welcome to the real world.
Oh, and you know, that democracy thing... doesn't exist. Sorry to burst the bubble.
On September 27 2011 22:26 SkelA wrote: They are always crying that they dont got the same rights as everyone but at the same time they steal stuff from our homes and get away with stuff that any other person wouldnt dare to do. They are poor and barely make a enough money to to feed themselfs but they spawn a horde of 10 kids to use them for stealing, begging and living on welfare.
Totally agree. People that don't live in countries with many gypsies will never understand this.
On September 27 2011 22:23 AcuWill wrote: Just curious how a similar thread made by a US citizen about black people would go?
You could simply exchange black for gypsy in the majority of statements in this thread and you wouldn't miss a beat.
Having said that, marginalizing an entire group of people based on the actions of a few (or even a majority) is always wrong.
How many black people are gangbangers, thieves and criminals? How many are well adjusted people that do no harm to their surroundings? If you'd look at the statistics, I'd wager they are no better or worse than white people, or most minorities. A gypsy living in an apartment he bought/pays rent for, goes to work and send his children to school is an exception. That's the difference. As we said, it's not about race, it's the lifestyle they choose and drag their children along with them.
On September 27 2011 22:19 Kukaracha wrote: I was homeless when I came to France for the first time. So yes, I've been in contact with those people. And yes, they're human beings. Not rats.
You don't know what it is to be an outcast until you're one. Period. "But you should integrate society", this is a stupid as telling a poor man to "just be rich instead".
A poor man is not poor by choice. Not sending your children to school and living off stealing is.
Of course, because you can magically land a job and have successful children even though you're homeless and have no legal income whatsoever.
"Hey, I'm Paul, I can't write and I have the reputation to pickpocket people, do you have a job for me?"
"Hi, I'm John, Paul's son, I can't write neither and also have the same reputation, can I become an engineer?"
What would you answer, huh? My family never stole anything but we had plenty of people who helped us. If no one had helped us, I wouldn't be here today.
Things just don't "happen" when you want them to. Welcome to the real world.
Oh, and you know, that democracy thing... doesn't exist. Sorry to burst the bubble.
LOL dude, your views are so narrow minded it is UNREAL. Do you think to be successful you have to work as a bloody engineer? Jesus! You could work as a manager of McDonalds or something for like £20,000 a year whats wrong with that? Its better than begging for money on a street corner with no home!!
There is LOADS of jobs out there in this "economic crisis" right now people just DONT want to clean the streets or work at a fast food resturant or in a pub because they think its "not good enough" for them, with that attitude there becomes more people on benefits and the economy slowly halts. Stop looking at some forms of work better than others, they all pay some form of money and some money is better than NO money.
On September 27 2011 22:22 niteReloaded wrote: Kukaracha, I think you're the one who doesn't know who gypsies are and how they function. If you knew the facts, you wouldn't be talking the way you're talking.
90% of them DO fit the stereotype.
On the other hand, most of us here would probably be perfectly happy living alongside a NORMAL gypsy.
Yeah show us those numbers!
You're making wild assumptions out of your own experience I guess? Why should we believe that YOU know that 90% of them fit the stereotype, have you made some sort of study we others are unaware of? Please enlighten us.
90% is my assumption, based on: - I can name around 15 gypsies by their first name. Only 1 finished elementary school
I don't have more numbers, but you pretty much just have to open your eyes in this case. You don't need math to spot an elephant.
But yeah, it was my mistake to say it that way. It's not even important how much of them fit the stereotype, because those who are normal citizens don't remedy those who are not, so percentages don't play a role, only absolute values of 'bad' citizens do.
On September 27 2011 22:33 Pandemona wrote: LOL dude, your views are so narrow minded it is UNREAL. Do you think to be successful you have to work as a bloody engineer? Jesus! You could work as a manager of McDonalds or something for like £20,000 a year whats wrong with that? Its better than begging for money on a street corner with no home!!
There is LOADS of jobs out there in this "economic crisis" right now people just DONT want to clean the streets or work at a fast food resturant or in a pub because they think its "not good enough" for them, with that attitude there becomes more people on benefits and the economy slowly halts. Stop looking at some forms of work better than others, they all pay some form of money and some money is better than NO money.
Not everybody gets accepted at McDonalds. You usually don't when you look like you could kill people.
It's funny that you call me narrow-minded. As I said before, I've been homeless with my mom when I was a kid, so I witnessed how it's not easy to fit in.
But maybe you know better, and should write a book and teach all of those outcasts who just LOVE to be chased by police all day how to be a good citizen.
On September 27 2011 22:19 Kukaracha wrote: I was homeless when I came to France for the first time. So yes, I've been in contact with those people. And yes, they're human beings. Not rats.
You don't know what it is to be an outcast until you're one. Period. "But you should integrate society", this is a stupid as telling a poor man to "just be rich instead".
A poor man is not poor by choice. Not sending your children to school and living off stealing is.
Of course, because you can magically land a job and have successful children even though you're homeless and have no legal income whatsoever.
"Hey, I'm Paul, I can't write and I have the reputation to pickpocket people, do you have a job for me?"
"Hi, I'm John, Paul's son, I can't write neither and also have the same reputation, can I become an engineer?"
What would you answer, huh? My family never stole anything but we had plenty of people who helped us. If no one had helped us, I wouldn't be here today.
Things just don't "happen" when you want them to. Welcome to the real world.
Oh, and you know, that democracy thing... doesn't exist. Sorry to burst the bubble.
That IS MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT. Welfare, free housing, encouraging parents to enroll their children to school. WE ALREADY DO ALL THAT. Let's give your example a bit of realism:
"Hi I'm John, my parents didn't send me to school so I can't read or write. That gives me the right to treat my children the same way and steal from people with no legal reprecussions."
That's the situation. They have all the means to get their children out of that crummy life but don't.
The majority of TL'ers surprisingly are missing the point - the protests were NOT vs. gypsies and their culture or mentality. They were vs. Kiril Rashkov's family and the corrupted authorities that had over 10 years to purge his criminal activities from the area, but didn't do anything about it and that had to happen.
TL'ers, i R disappoint. Racial hatred this protest isn't for.
On September 27 2011 22:33 Pandemona wrote: LOL dude, your views are so narrow minded it is UNREAL. Do you think to be successful you have to work as a bloody engineer? Jesus! You could work as a manager of McDonalds or something for like £20,000 a year whats wrong with that? Its better than begging for money on a street corner with no home!!
There is LOADS of jobs out there in this "economic crisis" right now people just DONT want to clean the streets or work at a fast food resturant or in a pub because they think its "not good enough" for them, with that attitude there becomes more people on benefits and the economy slowly halts. Stop looking at some forms of work better than others, they all pay some form of money and some money is better than NO money.
Not everybody gets accepted at McDonalds. You usually don't when you look like you could kill people.
It's funny that you call me narrow-minded. As I said before, I've been homeless with my mom when I was a kid, so I witnessed how it's not easy to fit in.
But maybe you know better, and should write a book and teach all of those outcasts who just LOVE to be chased by police all day how to be a good citizen.
Dude. Look in the Mirror, you have been homeless with your Mum and now you are not, you are a reason that you can change things you were obviously homeless for a reason because you said you moved TO France (guessing from another country for a reason maybe). You have found a job maybe? or even studying education at the moment. You are not stealing or involved in drug running your just trying to follow the law and make a good life.
You should be in agreement with what most of this thread is saying. Why should they get away with it when you had to work twice as hard for your reward of a roof overy our head and money in your pocket. Its not fair when you work your ass off and pay all the money to the goverment and you see other people NOT doing this, and the law not being enforced on them. There is help in every country for people. But when they refuse to abide by the law there is outburts you must see that side of the argument.
gypsys are a fucking pandemic for the civilizated society, for the most part. all they do is abusing welfare system, live off on crime and reproduce their yet inferior gene set. if this goes on with the current rate the civilizational apocalypse of europe about to emerge around 2060. its easy to pull the racist card from a place like western europe where the only way u get in contact with them is seeing them as funny people with the circus on tv...anyone who judging ppl with racism really should just come to one of the eastern europen countrys (namely bulgaria, romania, hungary, slovakia, czech) and live here for a year. for example how come there is no hard feelings against chinese, arabic, african people (or whoever comes here for that matter) in hungary? year by year we getting closer to a civil war, it just cant be a whole region being nazi racist hitler scum. therefore gypsy is not really a race itself, its a lifestyle chosen by every individual. the "good gypsys" are the roma people (my estimation is about ~5-10% of the population), who also suffering from the others lifestyle, hating them and oftenly labels them as "stupid gypsys"...
On September 27 2011 22:19 Kukaracha wrote: I was homeless when I came to France for the first time. So yes, I've been in contact with those people. And yes, they're human beings. Not rats.
You don't know what it is to be an outcast until you're one. Period. "But you should integrate society", this is a stupid as telling a poor man to "just be rich instead".
A poor man is not poor by choice. Not sending your children to school and living off stealing is.
Of course, because you can magically land a job and have successful children even though you're homeless and have no legal income whatsoever.
"Hey, I'm Paul, I can't write and I have the reputation to pickpocket people, do you have a job for me?"
"Hi, I'm John, Paul's son, I can't write neither and also have the same reputation, can I become an engineer?"
What would you answer, huh? My family never stole anything but we had plenty of people who helped us. If no one had helped us, I wouldn't be here today.
Things just don't "happen" when you want them to. Welcome to the real world.
Oh, and you know, that democracy thing... doesn't exist. Sorry to burst the bubble.
That IS MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT. Welfare, free housing, encouraging parents to enroll their children to school. WE ALREADY DO ALL THAT. Let's give your example a bit of realism:
"Hi I'm John, my parents didn't send me to school so I can't read or write. That gives me the right to treat my children the same way and steal from people with no legal reprecussions."
That's the situation. They have all the means to get their children out of that crummy life but don't.
It's not uncommon that parents don't let their children get better education than they have themselves, especially when better education means to lose an additional source of income for the family, it's not a phenomenon restricted to Romani people.
On September 27 2011 22:22 niteReloaded wrote: Kukaracha, I think you're the one who doesn't know who gypsies are and how they function. If you knew the facts, you wouldn't be talking the way you're talking.
90% of them DO fit the stereotype.
On the other hand, most of us here would probably be perfectly happy living alongside a NORMAL gypsy.
Yeah show us those numbers!
You're making wild assumptions out of your own experience I guess? Why should we believe that YOU know that 90% of them fit the stereotype, have you made some sort of study we others are unaware of? Please enlighten us.
90% is my assumption, based on: - I can name around 15 gypsies by their first name. Only 1 finished elementary school
I don't have more numbers, but you pretty much just have to open your eyes in this case. You don't need math to spot an elephant.
But yeah, it was my mistake to say it that way. It's not even important how much of them fit the stereotype, because those who are normal citizens don't remedy those who are not, so percentages don't play a role, only absolute values of 'bad' citizens do.
Omg some people are just unbelievable, so you took a personal example of 15 people to justify the fact that you said 90% of gypsies fit the stereotype, seriously don't you realize how stupid you sound, did you ever went to school before trying to send gypsies to school ?
On September 27 2011 22:38 speedphlux wrote: The majority of TL'ers surprisingly are missing the point - the protests were NOT vs. gypsies and their culture or mentality. They were vs. Kiril Rashkov's family and the corrupted authorities that had over 10 years to purge his criminal activities from the area, but didn't do anything about it and that had to happen.
TL'ers, i R disappoint. Racial hatred this protest isn't for.
Okay the article was remarkably bias'd against Romani but I do recall it saying country wide riots, not protests. Normally protests are peaceful and riots are where people are murdered by a mob.
On September 27 2011 22:43 hgt1002 wrote: gypsys are a fucking pandemic for the civilizated society, for the most part. all they do is abusing welfare system, live off on crime and reproduce their yet inferior gene set. if this goes on with the current rate the civilizational apocalypse of europe about to emerge around 2060. its easy to pull the racist card from a place like western europe where the only way u get in contact with them is seeing them as funny people with the circus on tv...anyone who judging ppl with racism really should just come to one of the eastern europen countrys (namely bulgaria, romania, hungary, slovakia, czech) and live here for a year. for example how come there is no hard feelings against chinese, arabic, african people (or whoever comes here for that matter) in hungary? year by year we getting closer to a civil war, it just cant be a whole region being nazi racist hitler scum. therefore gypsy is not really a race itself, its a lifestyle chosen by every individual. the "good gypsys" are the roma people (my estimation is about ~5-10% of the population), who also suffering from the others lifestyle, hating them and oftenly labels them as "stupid gypsys"...
On September 27 2011 22:19 Kukaracha wrote: I was homeless when I came to France for the first time. So yes, I've been in contact with those people. And yes, they're human beings. Not rats.
You don't know what it is to be an outcast until you're one. Period. "But you should integrate society", this is a stupid as telling a poor man to "just be rich instead".
A poor man is not poor by choice. Not sending your children to school and living off stealing is.
Of course, because you can magically land a job and have successful children even though you're homeless and have no legal income whatsoever.
"Hey, I'm Paul, I can't write and I have the reputation to pickpocket people, do you have a job for me?"
"Hi, I'm John, Paul's son, I can't write neither and also have the same reputation, can I become an engineer?"
What would you answer, huh? My family never stole anything but we had plenty of people who helped us. If no one had helped us, I wouldn't be here today.
Things just don't "happen" when you want them to. Welcome to the real world.
Oh, and you know, that democracy thing... doesn't exist. Sorry to burst the bubble.
That IS MY WHOLE FUCKING POINT. Welfare, free housing, encouraging parents to enroll their children to school. WE ALREADY DO ALL THAT. Let's give your example a bit of realism:
"Hi I'm John, my parents didn't send me to school so I can't read or write. That gives me the right to treat my children the same way and steal from people with no legal reprecussions."
That's the situation. They have all the means to get their children out of that crummy life but don't.
It's not uncommon that parents don't let their children get better education than they have themselves, especially when better education means to lose an additional source of income for the family, it's not a phenomenon restricted to Romani people.
On September 27 2011 22:43 hgt1002 wrote: gypsys are a fucking pandemic for the civilizated society, for the most part. all they do is abusing welfare system, live off on crime and reproduce their yet inferior gene set. if this goes on with the current rate the civilizational apocalypse of europe about to emerge around 2060. its easy to pull the racist card from a place like western europe where the only way u get in contact with them is seeing them as funny people with the circus on tv...anyone who judging ppl with racism really should just come to one of the eastern europen countrys (namely bulgaria, romania, hungary, slovakia, czech) and live here for a year. for example how come there is no hard feelings against chinese, arabic, african people (or whoever comes here for that matter) in hungary? year by year we getting closer to a civil war, it just cant be a whole region being nazi racist hitler scum. therefore gypsy is not really a race itself, its a lifestyle chosen by every individual. the "good gypsys" are the roma people (my estimation is about ~5-10% of the population), who also suffering from the others lifestyle, hating them and oftenly labels them as "stupid gypsys"...
Seriously?
This thread is kinda horrifying.
Yup it's disgusting, they gave him a warning for what he said right there, which is pathetic also
On September 27 2011 22:43 hgt1002 wrote: gypsys are a fucking pandemic for the civilizated society, for the most part. all they do is abusing welfare system, live off on crime and reproduce their yet inferior gene set. if this goes on with the current rate the civilizational apocalypse of europe about to emerge around 2060. its easy to pull the racist card from a place like western europe where the only way u get in contact with them is seeing them as funny people with the circus on tv...anyone who judging ppl with racism really should just come to one of the eastern europen countrys (namely bulgaria, romania, hungary, slovakia, czech) and live here for a year. for example how come there is no hard feelings against chinese, arabic, african people (or whoever comes here for that matter) in hungary? year by year we getting closer to a civil war, it just cant be a whole region being nazi racist hitler scum. therefore gypsy is not really a race itself, its a lifestyle chosen by every individual. the "good gypsys" are the roma people (my estimation is about ~5-10% of the population), who also suffering from the others lifestyle, hating them and oftenly labels them as "stupid gypsys"...
Like they are such sweethearts them selves? We actually got problems in the Netherlands with criminals from those country's coming over robbing places here and ''skimming'' creditcards and what not...
On September 27 2011 22:43 hgt1002 wrote: gypsys are a fucking pandemic for the civilizated society, for the most part. all they do is abusing welfare system, live off on crime and reproduce their yet inferior gene set. if this goes on with the current rate the civilizational apocalypse of europe about to emerge around 2060. its easy to pull the racist card from a place like western europe where the only way u get in contact with them is seeing them as funny people with the circus on tv...anyone who judging ppl with racism really should just come to one of the eastern europen countrys (namely bulgaria, romania, hungary, slovakia, czech) and live here for a year. for example how come there is no hard feelings against chinese, arabic, african people (or whoever comes here for that matter) in hungary? year by year we getting closer to a civil war, it just cant be a whole region being nazi racist hitler scum. therefore gypsy is not really a race itself, its a lifestyle chosen by every individual. the "good gypsys" are the roma people (my estimation is about ~5-10% of the population), who also suffering from the others lifestyle, hating them and oftenly labels them as "stupid gypsys"...
Seriously?
This thread is kinda horrifying.
yes, seriously. the DNS is suffering damage from smoking, alcohol which not uncommon with gypsy kids consuming these by the age of 9 or even younger... poor hygene, and the lack of education doesnt help either. not to mention inbreding while which is not common it surely happens especially within wider family connections. however a gypsy mother gives birth for his first child at the age of 12-16 and by then probably one kid in every or two year. also its a known fact gypsys ageing faster and die in a younger age. have you ever wondered why you not allowed to buy cigarettes and alcohol before the age of 18 or not allowed nailing your cousins? there is a reason. when you see a red circle, you cant name it to a blue square, sorry. and here im not talking about roma people who i respect and admire for trying to get along despite all the awful difficulties...
On September 27 2011 22:43 hgt1002 wrote: gypsys are a fucking pandemic for the civilizated society, for the most part. all they do is abusing welfare system, live off on crime and reproduce their yet inferior gene set. if this goes on with the current rate the civilizational apocalypse of europe about to emerge around 2060. its easy to pull the racist card from a place like western europe where the only way u get in contact with them is seeing them as funny people with the circus on tv...anyone who judging ppl with racism really should just come to one of the eastern europen countrys (namely bulgaria, romania, hungary, slovakia, czech) and live here for a year. for example how come there is no hard feelings against chinese, arabic, african people (or whoever comes here for that matter) in hungary? year by year we getting closer to a civil war, it just cant be a whole region being nazi racist hitler scum. therefore gypsy is not really a race itself, its a lifestyle chosen by every individual. the "good gypsys" are the roma people (my estimation is about ~5-10% of the population), who also suffering from the others lifestyle, hating them and oftenly labels them as "stupid gypsys"...
Seriously?
This thread is kinda horrifying.
Comments like these (hgt1002s comment) do nothing but justify the people who call us primitive, racist and more. Some of us are trying to portray the stiuation for what it is, a group of people is causing problems for communities while leeching off the welfare system and not taking the help provided to them to better the situation for all the parties involved. Like I said, no hate is directed to gypsies because they are gypsies, they aggravate people with their actions, it's even worse when they get away with everything, things regular citizens get imprisoned for.
On September 27 2011 22:22 niteReloaded wrote: Kukaracha, I think you're the one who doesn't know who gypsies are and how they function. If you knew the facts, you wouldn't be talking the way you're talking.
90% of them DO fit the stereotype.
On the other hand, most of us here would probably be perfectly happy living alongside a NORMAL gypsy.
Yeah show us those numbers!
You're making wild assumptions out of your own experience I guess? Why should we believe that YOU know that 90% of them fit the stereotype, have you made some sort of study we others are unaware of? Please enlighten us.
90% is my assumption, based on: - I can name around 15 gypsies by their first name. Only 1 finished elementary school
I don't have more numbers, but you pretty much just have to open your eyes in this case. You don't need math to spot an elephant.
But yeah, it was my mistake to say it that way. It's not even important how much of them fit the stereotype, because those who are normal citizens don't remedy those who are not, so percentages don't play a role, only absolute values of 'bad' citizens do.
Omg some people are just unbelievable, so you took a personal example of 15 people to justify the fact that you said 90% of gypsies fit the stereotype, seriously don't you realize how stupid you sound, did you ever go to school before trying to send gypsies to school ?
nitereloaded is absolutely right.I can even say that not 90% of the gypsies fit the stereotype, 99% of the fit it, at least here in Bulgaria, but as many posters mentioned it is the same in the other countries with big gypsy population. These people dont work, dont educate themselves, have zero personal hygene, have zero respect to anyone, have zero respect to ones property, their job is to steal, rape and kill. This is not, because they are not integrated in the society, thats because they are such people, its in their mentality, its their way of life. They are parazites that feed of the normal people.
These people have no place in the modern world and Europe.
Of course that Bulgaria wont be accepted in the Schengenian zone (sp?). Who wants hundreds of thousands of these people to start roaming Europe with Bulgarian ID cards? I surely dont and I`m glad that Netherlands and Finland think the same as me.
The worst thing is that a lot people bring racism into this, but it has nothing to do with racism.
On September 27 2011 22:38 speedphlux wrote: The majority of TL'ers surprisingly are missing the point - the protests were NOT vs. gypsies and their culture or mentality. They were vs. Kiril Rashkov's family and the corrupted authorities that had over 10 years to purge his criminal activities from the area, but didn't do anything about it and that had to happen.
TL'ers, i R disappoint. Racial hatred this protest isn't for.
The reason this escalated into such a big conflict with protests around the country isn't because of the murder of the Bulgarian guy, it is because it was a "gypsy" that killed a "Bulgarian". Some people had enough.
Anyway my mom works in a hospital and one of the coolest ladies there is a gypsy woman, she is a nurse and has a nice flat in our neighbourhood and lives with her family. They are still being looked at as lower type of humans, this is shit and this is RACISM. But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
I grew up near the gypsy part of my town and I don't hate any of them, although I have been attacked numerous times (was an exciting place to grow up), I hate those of them who refuse to help the rest of society and instead turn to violence and crime. I know some of them are struggling with shit jobs and are not being paid, just because of their social status. This discourages them even more, but that is the social problem that I was talking about and the integration part.
I am afraid the nature of this conflict has to do more with racism than social injustice, but I might be wrong. I am against it and I wish that most gypsies will consider being real Bulgarians and start earning their keep. Maybe then the social stigma about gypsies will disappear.
EDIT: Just to clarify, the Bulgarian gypsies aren't bad people and I have had more problems with Bulgarians in my neighbourhood as a kid. The statement about being attacked by gypsies is still true, but I have had more dreadful encounters with fellow Bulgarians. I think it is just right to add this :D.
On September 27 2011 22:43 hgt1002 wrote: gypsys are a fucking pandemic for the civilizated society, for the most part. all they do is abusing welfare system, live off on crime and reproduce their yet inferior gene set. if this goes on with the current rate the civilizational apocalypse of europe about to emerge around 2060. its easy to pull the racist card from a place like western europe where the only way u get in contact with them is seeing them as funny people with the circus on tv...anyone who judging ppl with racism really should just come to one of the eastern europen countrys (namely bulgaria, romania, hungary, slovakia, czech) and live here for a year. for example how come there is no hard feelings against chinese, arabic, african people (or whoever comes here for that matter) in hungary? year by year we getting closer to a civil war, it just cant be a whole region being nazi racist hitler scum. therefore gypsy is not really a race itself, its a lifestyle chosen by every individual. the "good gypsys" are the roma people (my estimation is about ~5-10% of the population), who also suffering from the others lifestyle, hating them and oftenly labels them as "stupid gypsys"...
Seriously?
This thread is kinda horrifying.
Comments like these (hgt1002s comment) do nothing but justify the people who call us primitive, racist and more. Some of us are trying to portray the stiuation for what it is, a group of people is causing problems for communities while leeching off the welfare system and not taking the help provided to them to better the situation for all the parties involved. Like I said, no hate is directed to gypsies because they are gypsies, they aggravate people with their actions, it's even worse when they get away with everything, things regular citizens get imprisoned for.
Erm? No hate is directed to gypsies because they are gypsies, they aggravate people with their actions?
So you hate them for being gypsies too, because if they didnt do those gypsy things they wouldnt be gypsies? I dont know how you group people but i group people how i seem them;
On September 27 2011 22:38 speedphlux wrote: The majority of TL'ers surprisingly are missing the point - the protests were NOT vs. gypsies and their culture or mentality. They were vs. Kiril Rashkov's family and the corrupted authorities that had over 10 years to purge his criminal activities from the area, but didn't do anything about it and that had to happen.
TL'ers, i R disappoint. Racial hatred this protest isn't for.
The reason this escalated into such a big conflict with protests around the country isn't because of the murder of the Bulgarian guy, it is because it was a "gypsy" that killed a "Bulgarian". Some people had enough.
Anyway my mom works in a hospital and one of the coolest ladies there is a gypsy woman, she is a nurse and has a nice flat in our neighbourhood and lives with her family. They are still being looked at as lower type of humans, this is shit and this is RACISM. But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
I grew up near the gypsy part of my town and I don't hate any of them, although I have been attacked numerous times (was an exciting place to grow up), I hate those of them who refuse to help the rest of society and instead turn to violence and crime. I know some of them are struggling with shit jobs and are not being paid, just because of their social status. This discourages them even more, but that is the social problem that I was talking about and the integration part.
I am afraid the nature of this conflict has to do more with racism than social injustice, but I might be wrong. I am against it and I wish that most gypsies will consider being real Bulgarians and start earning their keep. Maybe then the social stigma about gypsies will disappear.
People who are still calling us primitive, please read this comment, esp the bolded part. I'd raise a shitstorm if someone was treated this way just because of their race. We want action taken against the portion of the gypsy population who refuse to stop hurting/damaging communities close to them. What I'd like to see most is simply treating them the same as any other felon, fine or jailtime depending on the crime, nothing harsher.
On September 27 2011 22:33 Pandemona wrote: LOL dude, your views are so narrow minded it is UNREAL. Do you think to be successful you have to work as a bloody engineer? Jesus! You could work as a manager of McDonalds or something for like £20,000 a year whats wrong with that? Its better than begging for money on a street corner with no home!!
There is LOADS of jobs out there in this "economic crisis" right now people just DONT want to clean the streets or work at a fast food resturant or in a pub because they think its "not good enough" for them, with that attitude there becomes more people on benefits and the economy slowly halts. Stop looking at some forms of work better than others, they all pay some form of money and some money is better than NO money.
Not everybody gets accepted at McDonalds. You usually don't when you look like you could kill people.
It's funny that you call me narrow-minded. As I said before, I've been homeless with my mom when I was a kid, so I witnessed how it's not easy to fit in.
But maybe you know better, and should write a book and teach all of those outcasts who just LOVE to be chased by police all day how to be a good citizen.
Dude. Look in the Mirror, you have been homeless with your Mum and now you are not, you are a reason that you can change things you were obviously homeless for a reason because you said you moved TO France (guessing from another country for a reason maybe). You have found a job maybe? or even studying education at the moment. You are not stealing or involved in drug running your just trying to follow the law and make a good life.
You should be in agreement with what most of this thread is saying. Why should they get away with it when you had to work twice as hard for your reward of a roof overy our head and money in your pocket. Its not fair when you work your ass off and pay all the money to the goverment and you see other people NOT doing this, and the law not being enforced on them. There is help in every country for people. But when they refuse to abide by the law there is outburts you must see that side of the argument.
Oh, the thing is that I know VERY WELL that I simply got EXTREMELY LUCKY:
- Being raised by an intellectual (my grandpa) - Getting help because we are white and european looking - Getting an apartment before everyone else, in a VERY good city, just because we were white (I had a black friend who was there before me, and he waited much, much longer, even though they needed the same kind of appartment) - Mother marrying a french man - Ending up in a high school that is public but still incredibly selective as it's located in the 40th richer city of France - Leaving Chile - Being a bookworm because of my education - Being n°1 during my whole scholarship because I was taught at a young age to read litterature and woke up every morning to my grandpa listening Pavaroti and Maria Calas,
Things I had absolotuletely NO IMPACT on. It's called LUCK. How the fuck is a 6 year-old supposed to make his own life anyway? You learn what people teach you, period.
kukaracha you're missing the point. reaching adulthood, realizing what a unlucky childhood you might have had you must feel the desire to provide for your family and make your children's lives better than yours. this is what's missing in their culture
On September 27 2011 22:33 Pandemona wrote: LOL dude, your views are so narrow minded it is UNREAL. Do you think to be successful you have to work as a bloody engineer? Jesus! You could work as a manager of McDonalds or something for like £20,000 a year whats wrong with that? Its better than begging for money on a street corner with no home!!
There is LOADS of jobs out there in this "economic crisis" right now people just DONT want to clean the streets or work at a fast food resturant or in a pub because they think its "not good enough" for them, with that attitude there becomes more people on benefits and the economy slowly halts. Stop looking at some forms of work better than others, they all pay some form of money and some money is better than NO money.
Not everybody gets accepted at McDonalds. You usually don't when you look like you could kill people.
It's funny that you call me narrow-minded. As I said before, I've been homeless with my mom when I was a kid, so I witnessed how it's not easy to fit in.
But maybe you know better, and should write a book and teach all of those outcasts who just LOVE to be chased by police all day how to be a good citizen.
Dude. Look in the Mirror, you have been homeless with your Mum and now you are not, you are a reason that you can change things you were obviously homeless for a reason because you said you moved TO France (guessing from another country for a reason maybe). You have found a job maybe? or even studying education at the moment. You are not stealing or involved in drug running your just trying to follow the law and make a good life.
You should be in agreement with what most of this thread is saying. Why should they get away with it when you had to work twice as hard for your reward of a roof overy our head and money in your pocket. Its not fair when you work your ass off and pay all the money to the goverment and you see other people NOT doing this, and the law not being enforced on them. There is help in every country for people. But when they refuse to abide by the law there is outburts you must see that side of the argument.
Oh, the thing is that I know VERY WELL that I simply got EXTREMELY LUCKY:
- Being raised by an intellectual (my grandpa) - Getting help because we are white and european looking - Getting an apartment before everyone else, in a VERY good city, just because we were white (I had a black friend who was there before me, and he waited much, much longer, even though they needed the same kind of appartment) - Mother marrying a french man - Ending up in a high school that is public but still incredibly selective as it's located in the 40th richer city of France - Leaving Chile - Being a bookworm because of my education - Being n°1 during my whole scholarship because I was taught at a young age to read litterature and woke up every morning to my grandpa listening Pavaroti and Maria Calas,
Things I had absolotuletely NO IMPACT on. It's called LUCK. How the fuck is a 6 year-old supposed to make his own life anyway? You learn what people teach you, period.
Wow dude, you dont give yourself ANY credit. How is is LUCK you were no1 in your scholorship? Jesus christ your clever in what you do you have achieved ALOT with the lack of materialistic things many other people grew up with and lived with.
Your mum in this didnt refuse you to go to school, get a higher education or to start going out with your dad/grandad to steal or to sell drugs. She let you go to school get and education and you repaid her with the success you got with being the no1 in your scholorship and doing well. Take credit for this!
How is a 6year old supposed to know any of that, they are not its the reason as a parent you send them to school to learn. The parents (Gypsies) are failing at being parents by not allowing there children to go to school, socialise with other cultures of people and they turn out the same as there family. There tradition might EVENTUALLY change like some Travellers traditions in UK have changed. People can change traditions but it takes along time when you cant do anything about it.
On September 27 2011 22:33 Pandemona wrote: LOL dude, your views are so narrow minded it is UNREAL. Do you think to be successful you have to work as a bloody engineer? Jesus! You could work as a manager of McDonalds or something for like £20,000 a year whats wrong with that? Its better than begging for money on a street corner with no home!!
There is LOADS of jobs out there in this "economic crisis" right now people just DONT want to clean the streets or work at a fast food resturant or in a pub because they think its "not good enough" for them, with that attitude there becomes more people on benefits and the economy slowly halts. Stop looking at some forms of work better than others, they all pay some form of money and some money is better than NO money.
Not everybody gets accepted at McDonalds. You usually don't when you look like you could kill people.
It's funny that you call me narrow-minded. As I said before, I've been homeless with my mom when I was a kid, so I witnessed how it's not easy to fit in.
But maybe you know better, and should write a book and teach all of those outcasts who just LOVE to be chased by police all day how to be a good citizen.
Dude. Look in the Mirror, you have been homeless with your Mum and now you are not, you are a reason that you can change things you were obviously homeless for a reason because you said you moved TO France (guessing from another country for a reason maybe). You have found a job maybe? or even studying education at the moment. You are not stealing or involved in drug running your just trying to follow the law and make a good life.
You should be in agreement with what most of this thread is saying. Why should they get away with it when you had to work twice as hard for your reward of a roof overy our head and money in your pocket. Its not fair when you work your ass off and pay all the money to the goverment and you see other people NOT doing this, and the law not being enforced on them. There is help in every country for people. But when they refuse to abide by the law there is outburts you must see that side of the argument.
Oh, the thing is that I know VERY WELL that I simply got EXTREMELY LUCKY:
- Being raised by an intellectual (my grandpa) - Getting help because we are white and european looking - Getting an apartment before everyone else, in a VERY good city, just because we were white (I had a black friend who was there before me, and he waited much, much longer, even though they needed the same kind of appartment) - Mother marrying a french man - Ending up in a high school that is public but still incredibly selective as it's located in the 40th richer city of France - Leaving Chile - Being a bookworm because of my education - Being n°1 during my whole scholarship because I was taught at a young age to read litterature and woke up every morning to my grandpa listening Pavaroti and Maria Calas,
Things I had absolotuletely NO IMPACT on. It's called LUCK. How the fuck is a 6 year-old supposed to make his own life anyway? You learn what people teach you, period.
You had no impact on these things. Your parents and grandparents did. Children aren't being sent to school by choice of their parents. Being number one in your class is not luck, it's the product of hard work. Some people find it easier to excell in academia, but it still requires a lot of work. That's not luck. Again, welfare, free housing, schools being set up near gypsy slums with urging to enroll children. That's choice, and they don't take the help they're being offered.
@Inex : Dude, I'm from Pazardjik ... Lived for 12 years in the middle of one of the ghettos here along side gypsies. I know that there are people within their community who are trying to integrate themselves, but often face racism. But if there is a will, there is a way. I know a gypsy heart surgeon, a gypsy dentist, a gypsy lawyer, a gypsy taxi company owner and a gypsy fashion designer. They are capable people. At least those that are willing. I think the media in Bulgaria has a lot to do with turning the event into racial hatred festival. Of course having a "bulgarian" killed by a "gypsy" will create a certain note of racial distress. But if you look at it as "innocent getting killed by a recidivist", then it kinda clears the theme of racial hatred.
Still thou, the same "bad gypsies" debate here continues, even thou it's a whole different ball game why these protests are happening. Riots they aren't.
It's just disgusting what is happening over here.I'm worried about me and my family right now.Since I'm from Turkish origin I've recieved a lot of threats lately.Nationalism is getting popular here because of the ignorant population.What happened is basicly this.A relative of the gypsy king Kiril smashed a bulgarian boy with his car and dragged him 15 metres it was obviously not an accident.Then people accused Kiril of the murder and set all of his property on fire.People here all think ethnic groups are the same etc.Now they accuse roma people of stealing and murder.Although those are common things for criminals to do not masses of people that they don't even know.The pogroms seem to be only the beginning.They are organizing some kind of rally in my town don't know what that is about really.Nazis here are only waiting for a Bulgarian to get killed so they have excuses to riot.
On September 27 2011 23:12 speedphlux wrote: @Inex : Dude, I'm from Pazardjik ... Lived for 12 years in the middle of one of the ghettos here along side gypsies. I know that there are people within their community who are trying to integrate themselves, but often face racism. But if there is a will, there is a way. I know a gypsy heart surgeon, a gypsy dentist, a gypsy lawyer, a gypsy taxi company owner and a gypsy fashion designer. They are capable people. At least those that are willing. I think the media in Bulgaria has a lot to do with turning the event into racial hatred festival. Of course having a "bulgarian" killed by a "gypsy" will create a certain note of racial distress. But if you look at it as "innocent getting killed by a recidivist", then it kinda clears the theme of racial hatred.
Still thou, the same "bad gypsies" debate here continues, even thou it's a whole different ball game why these protests are happening. Riots they aren't.
On September 27 2011 23:12 speedphlux wrote: @Inex : Dude, I'm from Pazardjik ... Lived for 12 years in the middle of one of the ghettos here along side gypsies. I know that there are people within their community who are trying to integrate themselves, but often face racism. But if there is a will, there is a way. I know a gypsy heart surgeon, a gypsy dentist, a gypsy lawyer, a gypsy taxi company owner and a gypsy fashion designer. They are capable people. At least those that are willing. I think the media in Bulgaria has a lot to do with turning the event into racial hatred festival. Of course having a "bulgarian" killed by a "gypsy" will create a certain note of racial distress. But if you look at it as "innocent getting killed by a recidivist", then it kinda clears the theme of racial hatred.
Still thou, the same "bad gypsies" debate here continues, even thou it's a whole different ball game why these protests are happening. Riots they aren't.
So true.
"Racial hatred festival" - best description of whats going on both in Bulgaria and on TLnet.
On September 27 2011 22:07 niteReloaded wrote: Ugh, I had no idea so many countries have this problem. It's present in Croatia too, altho I'd say they're pretty peaceful here; I can't really remember a real incident. They do beg for money on crossroads etc, treat their kids poorly, always look for metals etc, but they never did anything bad to me, and I actually play basketball with some of them on the local playground.
However, responding to the problems that do occur, the only solution would be to end the mentality that their culture seems to have no matter which country they live in. One realistic way to do it would be to make them a country. Then they'll realize that they don't have anyone to leech from and they will possibly grow into fully functional human beings.
The other, cruel way would be to take away their kids, based on the poor treatment, and give them for adoption to normal couples. Then the gypsie 'culture' dies, but no human is killed.
This is a form of ethnic cleansing that was practiced by the Australian Government in an attempt to wipe out the Aborigines. It's something that ended pretty badly for them and I don't think anyone wants to try it again quite yet.
kwark, in the countries where gypsy misstreat their children the most it's very hard to have the parents decayed from their rights and to have the child stay with a social service. If this problem will be solved, the future will be better for everyone
But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
The problem is not in the relations between Bulgarians and Gypsies. The problem started when the local mafia boss has sent two of his men to kill an innocent man, "Tsar Kiro" as it is known, harassing the inhabitants of that town more than 20 years, using its influence on the local jipsy population and his connections with the official authorities. People who were there, including me demonstrated against the total absence of justice when organized crime is involved.(Tsar Kiro for instance is a member of a ruling party GERB, so from Sofia were sent over 300 marines police and special forces to protect him) Certain media and politicians have great benefit, this purely political protest, to be shown as ethnic conflict. Himself "Tsar Kiro" often threatens with "second Kosovo". Sorry for bad english
Just to make it clear I am not decided or blockheaded and I am reading all of the posts. However I'm seeing much that conflicts with the way it has been reported.
By the way, I am bias'd due to exactly what is posted below me. Every time some backwoods fuckwit or Tea Party "activist" makes international news I suffer through a tirade of insults to all 300 million+ of my countrymen.
I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
read this
On September 27 2011 23:30 ilovelings wrote: I live in a city packed with migrants and the only ones I had problems with were the gypsies.
On September 27 2011 22:07 niteReloaded wrote: Ugh, I had no idea so many countries have this problem. It's present in Croatia too, altho I'd say they're pretty peaceful here; I can't really remember a real incident. They do beg for money on crossroads etc, treat their kids poorly, always look for metals etc, but they never did anything bad to me, and I actually play basketball with some of them on the local playground.
However, responding to the problems that do occur, the only solution would be to end the mentality that their culture seems to have no matter which country they live in. One realistic way to do it would be to make them a country. Then they'll realize that they don't have anyone to leech from and they will possibly grow into fully functional human beings.
The other, cruel way would be to take away their kids, based on the poor treatment, and give them for adoption to normal couples. Then the gypsie 'culture' dies, but no human is killed.
This is a form of ethnic cleansing that was practiced by the Australian Government in an attempt to wipe out the Aborigines. It's something that ended pretty badly for them and I don't think anyone wants to try it again quite yet.
Same story with Native Americans too, shit went bad for the kids who weren't accepted by either group.
On September 27 2011 22:23 AcuWill wrote: Just curious how a similar thread made by a US citizen about black people would go?
You could simply exchange black for gypsy in the majority of statements in this thread and you wouldn't miss a beat.
Having said that, marginalizing an entire group of people based on the actions of a few (or even a majority) is always wrong.
How many black people are gangbangers, thieves and criminals? How many are well adjusted people that do no harm to their surroundings? If you'd look at the statistics, I'd wager they are no better or worse than white people, or most minorities. A gypsy living in an apartment he bought/pays rent for, goes to work and send his children to school is an exception. That's the difference. As we said, it's not about race, it's the lifestyle they choose and drag their children along with them.
Actually, a lot of people in America who "aren't racist" do sound an awful lot like you, they are as defensive too. "Just the gangbangers, theives and criminals, ya know, most of 'em." It doesn't matter if you think your opinion is factual, to me you sound like a hick from the south.
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
Generalization is so scary and dangerous and needs to be treated with a lot of care. However when generalization is needed to discuss and look into a large scale problem, it's equally scary to hear people say you shouldn't generalize.
Unfortunately, no matter how open minded you are no matter how tolerant, when you live in a country/city with a lot of gypsies you're eventually going to have enough of it.
And what people wrote is true, they don't want to change! Because it's easier to steal/rob/kill than work for money. The ruling gypsies are rich as fuck and they also control the police and have good business relations with political leaders (you think they couldn't stop the sex slavery if they wanted to).
It's easy to live somewhere where you don't interact with gypsies and say "omg, don't discriminate.. poor guys, they are like the jews" but it's hard to impossible when you have to live with them. Why? They don't fear authorities, don't fear police, don't fear justice. Don't wanna work, don't want to study, don't want to follow any norms of the society. Of course there are exceptions, of great gypsies or normal gypsies who are having a life just as a normal romanian... but it's rare.. under 1%.
Some people are scared of generalization because they think generalization = semi-racism.
Now, I've never met a gypsy before nor have I heard any incident involving gypsies here in States, but according to my European friends, especially from Eastern Europe, the gypsy problem is a pandemic over there.
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
nope. its just pure chance. lets demonstrate with an example: if you run through the road youll have 90% chance to hit by a bus and 10% you make it to the other side. will you go for it? this how people feel toward them. its not racism, its self-defense, since everyone is concerned for their own good in the first place. and unfortunately, it does really sucks for the rest 10%, who by the way very easy to recognize just by getting in contact with them, since they look clean, speaking the countrys language well, mannered, not loud or obnoxious, wont try to angle you and stuff... however when they send a CV for a job, only being represented by a gypsy name and a photo, noone will risk it (understandably).
This has absolutely nothing to do with being racist. Gypsies are a problem. Gypsies who went to school and live a normal (and by that I don't mean culturally assimilated, but lawful) life, work, send their children to school etc. are not Gypsies anymore. We are not talking about the "ethical gypsies" here, but instead about the "behavioural" ones.
They are abusing the welfare system and don't care about society. In order to reap the benefits of a society you should have to be part of it in the first place.
Where I live, gypsies are not a huge problem in general, because there are only few, but those few already behave bad enough to justify stopping their immigration. My mother works in the social housing (?) department and those people leave their appartements in complete destruction after only a few years. They don't pay taxes, they steal, they don't work, don't pay rents and they violate the property of others by just living wherever the hell they want. These are all crimes and there exist laws and punishments. But what are you gonna do? Fine them? They can't pay (even if they had the money it would not be legally obtained and thus the state wouldn't know). Make them do social work? They just don't show up. Throw them in jail? That doesn't solve the problem, jails are full and they would still live off state welfare. Throw them out of the country? They will somehow get in again and it only pushes the problem elsewhere.
Please don't tell me they have no choice: Where I live everyone can get work, e.g. yearly apple harvesting attracts thousands of czech, polish, slovakian etc. You don't have to know anything to do it and it is payed fairly well. Still, they refuse to work. They would get free education even up to university level and they get free housing too. Unfortunately you can't just give them no welfare. It will only cause them to engage in criminal acts to obtain needed money.
If it weren't for western morals and ethics, they would long have been eradicated by either themselves or the people they are leeching from.
I don't know an ethically and morally sound solution to the problem. They have nothing to lose (at least nothing you could take without completely violating their human rights) so how do you punish them?
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked jews are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask german, american, english or italian people they will all tell you the same.
Sorry for Godwinning this. I feel the comparison is scarily accurate though.
While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human.
that's a stupid comparison and you're stupid for coming up with it. "While their culture might be based upon scavenging, that doesn't in any way make them less human." LOL. look i know that you're living up there so you're a subject to fuckload of multiculturalist and leftist bullshit, but seriously, you shouldn't be brainwashed like that. cloud is indeed right, 90% of gypsies are scum, living out of state support and crime, while basically turning any place they come to into a ghetto. and i'm not even being racist here, i'm just telling you what the reality in the eastern europe is.
I have to bold this part, for a few years now small groups of Gypsies have been coming to Finland during the summer and they actually built ghetto-like 'villages' into the middle of the capital here.
The funny thing is that they whine about not getting enough welfare, but then you see satellite dishes coming out of there shantytown houses. And when you go and play football with them (don't do it, bad idea) they are wearing more expensive shoes than you. Not to mention that they reproduce like cockroaches, there's literally 5 gypsy kids to every 1 Bulgarian kid. Basically, as each generation passes they become a bigger burden on society because there will be less people to shoulder an increasing gypsy population. Add to that, that stealing is criminality is second nature to them.
There are some gypsy neighbourhoods that are hard working, however they are a very small minority (1-2%).
P.S. Integration (ie. getting these guys to work) was tried during the communist era. As we can see, it didn't succeed for the most part.
On September 27 2011 23:47 MaGariShun wrote: This has absolutely nothing to do with being racist. Gypsies are a problem. Gypsies who went to school and live a normal (and by that I don't mean culturally assimilated, but lawful) life, work, send their children to school etc. are not Gypsies anymore. We are not talking about the "ethical gypsies" here, but instead about the "behavioural" ones.
They are abusing the welfare system and don't care about society. In order to reap the benefits of a society you should have to be part of it in the first place.
Where I live, gypsies are not a huge problem in general, because there are only few, but those few already behave bad enough to justify stopping their immigration. My mother works in the social housing (?) department and those people leave their appartements in complete destruction after only a few years. They don't pay taxes, they steal, they don't work, don't pay rents and they violate the property of others by just living wherever the hell they want. These are all crimes and there exist laws and punishments. But what are you gonna do? Fine them? They can't pay (even if they had the money it would not be legally obtained and thus the state wouldn't know). Make them do social work? They just don't show up. Throw them in jail? That doesn't solve the problem, jails are full and they would still live off state welfare. Throw them out of the country? They will somehow get in again and it only pushes the problem elsewhere.
Please don't tell me they have no choice: Where I live everyone can get work, e.g. yearly apple harvesting attracts thousands of czech, polish, slovakian etc. You don't have to know anything to do it and it is payed fairly well. Still, they refuse to work. They would get free education even up to university level and they get free housing too. Unfortunately you can't just give them no welfare. It will only cause them to engage in criminal acts to obtain needed money.
If it weren't for western morals and ethics, they would long have been eradicated by either themselves or the people they are leeching from.
I don't know an ethically and morally sound solution to the problem. They have nothing to lose (at least nothing you could take without completely violating their human rights) so how do you punish them?
this.
I buy my groceries from a bolivian family, a chilean one, a japanese one and a korean one. The best anti semite jokes I've ever heard were made by an Orthodox Rabi, my gay brothers is married to another man, I've dated from Azn to Black, my neighbour is from Senegal, and somehow the only ones that I've (or we because I have seen other minorities having problems too) had problems (serious) with were with the Gypsies. They are trouble.
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
Calling gypsies a problem IS NOT RACISM FOR GOD'S SAKE. I have no fucking clue about whether gypsies are a problem, but GYPSIES ARE NOT A RACE. It's a culture. And apparently the culture seems to be a problem according to the posters in this thread that actually live in those countries together with the gypsies. Don't act like a culture is some sort of sacred property and defiling it is the same as practicing Nazism. Those comparisons are DISGUSTING.
As I've said before, I know just about nothing about gypsies, but as an outsider I'd rather believe someone who actually lives in Eastern Europe than someone equating disliking the gypsy culture with Nazism.
If it is true what these people say and gypsies steal, don't send their children to school and live of welfare support without showing any signs of trying to get work or education, then they are a problem. I am SURE that there are loads of gypsies that do not fit that description, but it seems like those are in the minority (judging from anecdotes from people in here). And OF COURSE the solution shouldn't be 'throw all gypsies in jail', it should be something like "if you don't send your children to school you go to jail".
On September 27 2011 23:12 speedphlux wrote: @Inex : Dude, I'm from Pazardjik ... Lived for 12 years in the middle of one of the ghettos here along side gypsies. I know that there are people within their community who are trying to integrate themselves, but often face racism. But if there is a will, there is a way. I know a gypsy heart surgeon, a gypsy dentist, a gypsy lawyer, a gypsy taxi company owner and a gypsy fashion designer. They are capable people. At least those that are willing.
How many criminals/"bad gypsies" you know for each "normal" one. I somehow think it's closer to 5:1 than 1:1, and hell, even 1:1 would fucking astronomical.
What you just said is just as retarded as me telling you that all white people are racists just because I am. They're just the minority, what really matters is the majority.
On September 27 2011 22:07 niteReloaded wrote: Ugh, I had no idea so many countries have this problem. It's present in Croatia too, altho I'd say they're pretty peaceful here; I can't really remember a real incident. They do beg for money on crossroads etc, treat their kids poorly, always look for metals etc, but they never did anything bad to me, and I actually play basketball with some of them on the local playground.
However, responding to the problems that do occur, the only solution would be to end the mentality that their culture seems to have no matter which country they live in. One realistic way to do it would be to make them a country. Then they'll realize that they don't have anyone to leech from and they will possibly grow into fully functional human beings.
The other, cruel way would be to take away their kids, based on the poor treatment, and give them for adoption to normal couples. Then the gypsie 'culture' dies, but no human is killed.
This is a form of ethnic cleansing that was practiced by the Australian Government in an attempt to wipe out the Aborigines. It's something that ended pretty badly for them and I don't think anyone wants to try it again quite yet.
Same story with Native Americans too, shit went bad for the kids who weren't accepted by either group.
On September 27 2011 22:23 AcuWill wrote: Just curious how a similar thread made by a US citizen about black people would go?
You could simply exchange black for gypsy in the majority of statements in this thread and you wouldn't miss a beat.
Having said that, marginalizing an entire group of people based on the actions of a few (or even a majority) is always wrong.
How many black people are gangbangers, thieves and criminals? How many are well adjusted people that do no harm to their surroundings? If you'd look at the statistics, I'd wager they are no better or worse than white people, or most minorities. A gypsy living in an apartment he bought/pays rent for, goes to work and send his children to school is an exception. That's the difference. As we said, it's not about race, it's the lifestyle they choose and drag their children along with them.
Actually, a lot of people in America who "aren't racist" do sound an awful lot like you, they are as defensive too. "Just the gangbangers, theives and criminals, ya know, most of 'em." It doesn't matter if you think your opinion is factual, to me you sound like a hick from the south.
Oh wow, way to twist my words. First of all, I'm from Slovenia. Second of all, I what I said is that criminals should be prosecuted and that the percentage of black people involved in crime must be ridiculosly low, no better or worse than white people or other minorities. I'm saying it's racism to hate based on race. Gypsy people get a lot of help that they refuse to accept, don't send their children to school, live in squalor and live off of begging and stealing. Judging by your reading comprehension I'm guessing you're the hick. Not nice to get ad hom attacks is it.
On September 27 2011 23:45 Fenrax wrote: Many truths about race and demography are inconvenient. If reality is not like it should be in theory then the theory is wrong and not the reality.
Of course it is wrong to assume that stereotypes are never based on statistical facts. That doesn't mean that categorizing people by their heritage is ok, on the contrary, it will only aggravate already existing problems.
Saying racism has nothing to do with this discussion is obviously absurd, despite a lot of intelligent people in this thread stating just that. As soon as individuals are judged based on their cultural and ethnical background, which I am sure happens to gypsies in europe a lot, it is racism.
It must be very hard to escape a way of life that you have been brought up with if outsiders immediately identify you with it.
A) Yes, they are Roma- Gypsy is a bigoted term by association with thievery and laziness. B) Most posts sound so terribly like they are suggesting the same past schemes of threatening to withhold welfare until Roma submit to forced sterilization without consent or knowledge of what is actually being done.
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
On September 27 2011 23:30 ilovelings wrote: I live in a city packed with migrants and the only ones I had problems with were the gypsies.
Do you honestly expect me to believe you've never had a problem with anyone who was not a gypsy? You are showing classic confirmation bias, remembering only specific incidents. When someone of your own race mistreats you, or a gypsy deals with you honorably you brush it off as "an exception"
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
Don't be proud to be an American, be THANKFUL. You live in a different world where there is nothing that comes even close to comparing with the gypsy culture. In this case you'd be ridiculed for having such naive ideas in your head.
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends.
You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
Don't be proud to be an American, be THANKFUL. You live in a different world where there is nothing that comes even close to comparing with the gypsy culture. In this case you'd be ridiculed for having such naive ideas in your head.
Yes because we've never committed a genocide or have an enormous and prevalent issue of immigrants living at the bottom of the poverty line aggravated by many abusing our welfare programs.
Just because we aren't as old doesn't mean we're not all growed up with our own shitty problems just like you.
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
Calling gypsies a problem IS NOT RACISM FOR GOD'S SAKE. I have no fucking clue about whether gypsies are a problem, but GYPSIES ARE NOT A RACE. It's a culture. And apparently the culture seems to be a problem according to the posters in this thread that actually live in those countries together with the gypsies. Don't act like a culture is some sort of sacred property and defiling it is the same as practicing Nazism. Those comparisons are DISGUSTING.
As I've said before, I know just about nothing about gypsies, but as an outsider I'd rather believe someone who actually lives in Eastern Europe than someone equating disliking the gypsy culture with Nazism.
If it is true what these people say and gypsies steal, don't send their children to school and live of welfare support without showing any signs of trying to get work or education, then they are a problem. I am SURE that there are loads of gypsies that do not fit that description, but it seems like those are in the minority (judging from anecdotes from people in here). And OF COURSE the solution shouldn't be 'throw all gypsies in jail', it should be something like "if you don't send your children to school you go to jail".
Then why bring the fact that they are gypsies into it at all?
To all ppl talking without knowing gypsies , i hope something bad happens to you (to say it nicely) , ALL gipsies are like that , A-L-L of them , i repeat to all you hypocrites thinking you know jack shit , A-L-L of them are like that , I live in Romania and in all my life i have N-E-V-E-R seen a gipsy who doesn't steal as much as he can , dmg the country and such.
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
Don't be proud to be an American, be THANKFUL. You live in a different world where there is nothing that comes even close to comparing with the gypsy culture. In this case you'd be ridiculed for having such naive ideas in your head.
America has tons of racially grouped gangs - the Mafia, the Bloods, the Crips, these fun guys who make your gypsies look pretty weak. We also have plenty of racists and plenty of people willing to ridicule people like me for their naivety. I just disagree with you and think we should should judge people differently.
On September 27 2011 23:12 speedphlux wrote: @Inex : Dude, I'm from Pazardjik ... Lived for 12 years in the middle of one of the ghettos here along side gypsies. I know that there are people within their community who are trying to integrate themselves, but often face racism. But if there is a will, there is a way. I know a gypsy heart surgeon, a gypsy dentist, a gypsy lawyer, a gypsy taxi company owner and a gypsy fashion designer. They are capable people. At least those that are willing.
How many criminals/"bad gypsies" you know for each "normal" one. I somehow think it's closer to 5:1 than 1:1, and hell, even 1:1 would fucking astronomical.
What you just said is just as retarded as me telling you that all white people are racists just because I am. They're just the minority, what really matters is the majority.
Nah, the actual ratio would be something like 20:1, but so what ? The main topic of this tread was the so called riots in Bulgaria and the majority of TL'ers turned this into "the gypsy problem" tread. And don't call me a retard. You can't judge by the majority coz we're all individuals. Same thing I don't think Finns are douchebags even thou the majority of the Finns I know are ones. The ratio here should be something like 16:0, but oh well - whatever. It's the individual's fault that the problem in Bulgaria happened. It's individuals that are going to end up behind bars in the end. Not the majority. Does that are trying to turn this into a ethnical or racial problem are gonna be punished in the end. By fines, by jail time, by whatever. I don't like it when people just jump the band wagon and start posting without reading a bit of info on the matter they're discussing. Disgusting !
On September 27 2011 21:02 FireEagle wrote: What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general?
In general, I think that 'gypsy's' should be treated as any other citizen of whatever nationality they belong to, and given no special rights or privileges.
As for the problem ... I am just glad it's not really a big part of my country.
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
I don't think there's anything for you to feel proud about, and the apposition of the US and Europe is just useless. I don't think the US is significantly more tolerant than any other western country. Throwing around the word 'racist' to put yourself above other people is pointless as well. It comes across as "you're racist, I'm not. This argument is over."
You need to consider the actual problems. Gypsies, by definition, live an archaic lifestyle. They are usually home shooled, rarely mingle with the native communities, and don't see any problem with settling down on empty land and not paying tax. It's because of these social conditions, and not any racial issue, that they are more likely to be a drain on society.
In the UK we have had problems where it's been essentially impossible to deal with Gypsies. They settle on empty land, and when the government tries to move them on they put up a fight. It's not easy to deal with whole communities in this way. They feel like the victims, but in reality they have no inherent right to live their lifestyle if they're not going to put the money back into the economy to support it.
You can argue percentages all you like but the fact is that "travelling peoples" are, by and large, bad for a country. In general, the culture is a negative influence on wherever it is. Anyone who doesn't recognise that there is a hugely significant criminal element way above the norm in the culture is simply wilfully ignorant, as is someone who doesn't recognise the strain they can put on amenities through their lifestyle. It is not something that should be supported in any way as far as I'm concerned, but sadly it is.
That doesn't mean you should hate them or pretend they're all terrible people, of course. That sort of attitude just obscures the genuine problem.
On September 28 2011 00:11 RTudoRR wrote: To all ppl talking without knowing gypsies , i hope something bad happens to you (to say it nicely) , ALL gipsies are like that , A-L-L of them , i repeat to all you hypocrites thinking you know jack shit , A-L-L of them are like that , I live in Romania and in all my life i have N-E-V-E-R seen a gipsy who doesn't steal as much as he can , dmg the country and such.
I wish they would all get deported back to India.
I'm repeating myself so much I should just save this text and copy-paste it. People call the ones living in areas with a gypsy problem racist and primitive. These people get a ton of help and are given plenty of oportunities to earn their keep, get decent housing and educate their children. They don't accept the gifts other people work hard for. They get away with crimes other people go to jail for. Don't spout righteous nonsense if you don't know about the situation.
On September 27 2011 23:34 Hypertension wrote: I had to check out the thread that scared off the mighty banhammer of Nyovne. I am so proud to be an American right now, where anyone calling another race genetically or culturally inferior would rightly be ridiculed. If you can't judge people independently based on their actions, and instead have to tar the entire group because "90% of them are like this", then you are being racist. Is this sentiment against the Gypsies really popular and well tolerated in Europe?
Don't be proud to be an American, be THANKFUL. You live in a different world where there is nothing that comes even close to comparing with the gypsy culture. In this case you'd be ridiculed for having such naive ideas in your head.
America has tons of racially grouped gangs - the Mafia, the Bloods, the Crips, these fun guys who make your gypsies look pretty weak. We also have plenty of racists and plenty of people willing to ridicule people like me for their naivety. I just disagree with you and think we should should judge people differently.
well... to be honest, if youd know anything about gypsys youd see these "bloods crips whoever" people like kids playing gangster... i could link many newspots from ones where 80+ yr old married couple been robbed than raped and beaten to death in their own home to how a gypsy woman took drugs while being pregnant to make the children born with retardation (more money from the govt.) you think pickpocketing is the problem here? the problem is bestiality which is somewhat attached to the culture to a degree and have acceptance if performed in some cases. i think it wouldnt matter, as you alrady have your opinion which been forged out of thin air with the intention of putting yourself morally above than the commie eastern euros...
The problem isn't the race, it's the way of life. there have been many successfull people from Gypsy background: Mircea Lucescu (Shaktar Donetsk manager, currently top 10 coach in Europe), his son, Razvan Lucescu, Romania's former football coach, Banel Niculita, Saint Ettiene midfielder, artsists who play along Gorna Bregovici, etc There are people of that origin who have adapted to society and are successfull, in arts or in sports. Nobody has any hate towards them. The problem is about the part of them who doesn't want to adapt, not a race in general. Secondly, the big difference in communism was that the communist party was trying to raise the population, so they recieved medals and a big wellfare, and a medal from the state for having 10+ childred. This is how their mentallity has evolved. As for a separate state, that was tried in WW2, in the region of Transnistria(now a separatist region from Republic of Moldavia), but that was occupied by the Soviet Army. Back then, Romania had the same kind of leadership as Finland: technocrat field marshall head of state. From my personal experience, I was a victim of a break-in. When I was at home, I heard someone forcing the door of my house. I was at home, and I tried to stall and call the olice. They broke one lock, forced the second, I put the chain on the door to stalle even more, and when thef finally broke both locks only the chain held the door, they opened it as much as the chain permitted. The two robbers tried to taake off the chain, I hid back of the door, and when the first of them put his hand inside to take off the chain, I hit his hand with a long katana sword, and forced them to run away. That saved my life. Police haven't found them since. I was 15 at that time. My bike has been stolen once, a friend had 2 bikes stolen, and one of them was found. All of them were gypsies. Also, another friend had his house broken into by them 3 times, each time the perpetrators were caught on camera, but, still, police didn't do anything. So the hae isn't about a race, it's about a way of life against society.
On September 27 2011 23:55 Legatus Lanius wrote: so do french people consider gypsies more trouble and less desirable than, say, arab muslim immigrants?
Gypsies are much less numerous, and far less intrusive, so it's hard to compare. Gypsies don't hang the whole day in shopping malls, or take a lot of public transportation. Also you can't really say arab muslim immigrants are a problem, a vast majority of arabs and muslims are second or third generations.
Funny how the whole thread has been derailed into a debate about racism. There was a riot in the village where it first started, the houses of wealthy gypsy family members were burned, the close friend of the gypsy boss who murdered the boy, hid away in his mansion. When people stormed in and set the place on fire, the police provided refuge for them because the gypsy boss was a member of the ruling government. The nation-wide protests are because they are fed up with the corruption and seek justice for the death of the young boy. Yes, there is no surprise that a gypsy was behind yet another crime. No, this thread should not be derailed of whether or not gypsies should be deported, killed off, or any other sort of stupid comments. Although i'm surprised that this sort of thing needed to happen for people to realize how bad it is here. We've been coping for decades basically.
The problems with the gypsies are merely a symptom of the broken social and justice system in Bulgaria, they are not the cause of it. The general sleaze and corruption is prevalent in all aspects of society, enabling and reinforcing all kinds of anti-social behavior--it is only natural that gypsies have become more and more aggressive.
The gypsies in this story are simple opportunists, preying on the collapsed society that has created them. Focusing solely on them could not solve the problem, it's the system that has allowed them to become what they are that needs changing.
OK, maybe I don't know much about the problem, since clearly I have never dealt with gypsies. I guess I will let the Europeans figure out if the ideas being thrown around in this thread are racist or not. Have a good day
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends.
You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes.
Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
lol yes because there are no Roma in the United States.
Can't you see why the rest of us are having trouble with relating to your problems when you come across so insisting and authoritative on everything gypsy? Edit: Estimated Roma population of US- 50k Estimated Roma population of Bulgaria- 75k
:\ and thieving gypsys are like the very least of our social problems.
On September 27 2011 22:26 Zechs wrote: Incidentally, it didn't take long for Godwin's Law to come into effect in this thread did it?
Laugh all you want, extremism is rising in Europe, again. Not the same scapegoats, but you can't fool people THAT easily, no, you need another toy.
Well it's the exact same scapegoat for crying out loud. The only thing I've got confirmed from this thread (that was supposed to be about a fucking riot) is that racism in Europe is reaching ridiculous levels. When people start talking about exterminating all gypsies, you start wondering what century you live in.
On September 27 2011 22:26 Zechs wrote: Incidentally, it didn't take long for Godwin's Law to come into effect in this thread did it?
Laugh all you want, extremism is rising in Europe, again. Not the same scapegoats, but you can't fool people THAT easily, no, you need another toy.
Well it's the exact same scapegoat for crying out loud. The only thing I've got confirmed from this thread (that was supposed to be about a fucking riot) is that racism in Europe is reaching ridiculous levels. When people start talking about exterminating all gypsies, you start wondering what century you live in.
maybe in that case, the modern thinking and morally developed Sweden could give a helping hand for this poor, criminalized and desperate people who live in injustice.... oh wait..... you sent them back from Malmö already.
First of all about the gypsy problem - people (especially ones from the US) seem to have their minds set, that every time a culture is being criticized, it's racism. I don't know what they teach you guys in schools, but it's certainly not using your brain on that topic. I've even gotten banned from this forum for saying stuff like that but ... meh ...
Europeans who write here aren't saying that gypsy blood makes gypsies what they are. A minimal percentage of them can live a different life. We're against gypsy culture - their language has one word for "slave" and "foreigner. The same way Korean has one word for "newbie" and "foreigner". Back on gypsies - what I saw earlier in the thread about "being awful towards their own children" isn't half as brutal as what I've seen - a mother throwing her 3~4 year old kid in front of a car driving @ about 40km/h so that she can sue the driver. Gypsies are way more racist than any of the people who wrote here, it's some kind of religion to them to "plague the lands" so to speak, and once again - this is part of their CULTURE, not their blood. It's funny how years back there was one gypsy guy, a surgeon, who was shown by all the media as the messiah, the sparkling example of the hard working gypsy. Guess what - he got caught for racketing sick people for money or he'd sabotage their operations. Media here haven't found another educated gypsy since then ...
But all of the above is off-topic (well. the whole thread is off-topic so I guess that's fine). But let me tell you what actually happened in Bulgaria, because people have the wrong idea about it. First of all, the gypsy problem in Bulgaria is probably bigger here than in any other country. The reason - the government supports it. Gypsies actually have more rights than Bulgarians, and this isn't about to change, as they are the perfect uneducated people that any politician who wants power dreams of. When it's time for elections, a gypsy vote costs - 3 meatballs (THIS IS NOT AN EXAGGERATION). Gypsies have their leaders (people like the man who ordered the murder this topic is about). These people are allowed to do whatever crimes they want, in exchange for telling gypsies that a genocide on them is imminent if they don't vote. The boy that got killed is one who was a victim of one of their previous crimes as the court would never do anything to Rashkov, they suspected he'd try another type of revenge, so they killed him. The riots started off as protests against the family, against the current Bulgarian politicians, who support this family. It wasn't about their gypsy blood. But the media owned by Rupert Murdoc purposely tries to mislead people, as they are paid by the current government, the problem is that this is so obvious now that even the most foolish amongst people wouldn't bite it this time (the words of the awarded "#1 Bulgarian Reporter" were "Some nazi drug-addicts and football hooligans want genocide against the gypsies"). Well that wasn't the case, even though for every 1000 people who only want justice, you'd find 10 or 20 mad nazi kids. But that's inevitable in any society I guess, there's just dumb people anyway ...
On September 27 2011 23:45 Fenrax wrote: Many truths about race and demography are inconvenient. If reality is not like it should be in theory then the theory is wrong and not the reality.
Of course it is wrong to assume that stereotypes are never based on statistical facts. That doesn't mean that categorizing people by their heritage is ok, on the contrary, it will only aggravate already existing problems.
Saying racism has nothing to do with this discussion is obviously absurd, despite a lot of intelligent people in this thread stating just that. As soon as individuals are judged based on their cultural and ethnical background, which I am sure happens to gypsies in europe a lot, it is racism.
It must be very hard to escape a way of life that you have been brought up with if outsiders immediately identify you with it.
Actually roma (see when you call them gypsies you are being racist according to the lawsuits they filed with the court in Hague) are juged in europe by what they do. And what they mostly do (I've never met an honest one in 20 years of living there) is steal, assault and beg for money (and funny enough, they somehow have more money then the rest of us poor saps).
The communist government wanted to get rid of them, so they gave them free food, clothing and places to live. The roma chose to not take advantage of any of these. I have had 5 roma kids in my grade school classes. None of them was allowed to finish anything more than 6th grade. Their parrents took them out of school and who knows what they made them do after.
These are not some insignificant special cases that people talk about. Talk to any romanian and they will have at least a story like this one.
n00b3rt it reads like all 10 of the kids are posting in this thread~ Post a fuckin solution instead of blanketing every single person of one group as murderous leeches.
Also most of the people using the word racist are English as a second language users. Note my repeated use of bigot.
While there's tension in Bulgaria and the gypsies are a sensitive social topic, the demos in all big cities as well as the overwhelming public reaction about the murder are not ethnic or directed against a minority, but against a mafia boss, who's doings went unpunished for more than 20 years.
I feel really disturbed how the situation is abused by extreme political parties, seeking more public exposure by promoting racistic statements and provoking acts of violence against a minority.
What makes matters worse thou is that elections take place next month.
On September 28 2011 00:34 Probe1 wrote: Euronyme there have been a lot of prejudicial things said in this thread but I dare you to find one quote of someone suggesting extermination.
It was on the front page.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
On September 27 2011 22:26 Zechs wrote: Incidentally, it didn't take long for Godwin's Law to come into effect in this thread did it?
Laugh all you want, extremism is rising in Europe, again. Not the same scapegoats, but you can't fool people THAT easily, no, you need another toy.
Well it's the exact same scapegoat for crying out loud. The only thing I've got confirmed from this thread (that was supposed to be about a fucking riot) is that racism in Europe is reaching ridiculous levels. When people start talking about exterminating all gypsies, you start wondering what century you live in.
This picture is painted by the people that were most affected by the problem. Wouldn't you have a bad opinion of any minority that directly harms your community? Most posts, including mine, try to portray this problem for what it really is, whole groups of people living anywhere they please, even if it's privately owned land, refusing help that has been offered them, living off illegal means like stealing and refusing to at least give their children an opportunity to live a decent life.
On September 28 2011 00:39 Probe1 wrote: n00b3rt it reads like all 10 of the kids are posting in this thread~ Post a fuckin solution instead of blanketing every single person of one group as murderous leeches.
Also most of the people using the word racist are English as a second language users. Note my repeated use of bigot.
When the government needs gipsy votes because they are easy to buy, what is the solution ? You tell me man.
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends.
You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes.
Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
I'm not making wild assumptions though about how 90% of them refuse to work, that's what I'm criticizing; you stating things as facts when you in fact really can't back it up. I'm not claiming to know how the situation actually is, like you are.
And you say you live with them blabla, and think that your opinion therefore can be applied to an entire population, well guess what, your opinion doesn't matter on a larger scale unless you can actively back it up.
Instead of condemning Gypsies, why aren't you condemning all people who murder, rape etc. You don't know any of these numbers, neither do I; but you are acting like you're the one sitting on the truths.
And another thing to note is that the people who are calling Easter Europeans racists, are from countries that, funny enough, have already expulsed the roma from their lands (Sweeden, US, Canada, France, England) be it overtly or covertly (like the US and Canada and their simple denial of visas to 99% of roma applicants).
On September 28 2011 00:22 qyk05328 wrote: The problems with the gypsies are merely a symptom of the broken social and justice system in Bulgaria, they are not the cause of it. The general sleaze and corruption is prevalent in all aspects of society, enabling and reinforcing all kinds of anti-social behavior--it is only natural that gypsies have become more and more aggressive.
The gypsies in this story are simple opportunists, preying on the collapsed society that has created them. Focusing solely on them could not solve the problem, it's the system that has allowed them to become what they are that needs changing.
There is truth in your words.
Anyway , people here are fed up. Cases like this one where clans of gypsies terrorize entire small villages are quite common. This one is even worse since the leader of the clan is actually quite wealthy. While certainly there are some good people among the gypsies, most of them dont work, they rely on child support, stealing, dealing drugs, selling votes and what not. Most of them dont pay for water and electricity. If the wall wont protect the people and provide justice, then the people will protect themselves and take justice into their own hands, cause lets face it no one want his kids, his loved ones or himself to be beaten up, killed, raped, or all at the same time.
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends.
You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes.
Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
I'm not making wild assumptions though about how 90% of them refuse to work, that's what I'm criticizing; you stating things as facts when you in fact really can't back it up. I'm not claiming to know how the situation actually is, like you are.
And you say you live with them blabla, and think that your opinion therefore can be applied to an entire population, well guess what, your opinion doesn't matter on a larger scale unless you can actively back it up.
Instead of condemning Gypsies, why aren't you condemning all people who murder, rape etc. You don't know any of these numbers, neither do I; but you are acting like you're the one sitting on the truths.
Actually it's not a "wild assumption" friend. The 2001 and 2006 romanian census found that 92% and 94% of the roma population was unemployed and not looking for work.
On September 28 2011 00:34 Probe1 wrote: Euronyme there have been a lot of prejudicial things said in this thread but I dare you to find one quote of someone suggesting extermination.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
User was temp banned for this post.
See how it says temp banned? All I see are more and more riots happening from the responses in this thread and elsewhere on the internet. Enjoy another 1100 years of hating each other....
When 99% of them lead a criminal lifestyle(dont pay taxes, dont pay bills, steal....) and refuse to change and are proud of their ways and don't be fooled they are proud of their lifestyle and they encourage their children to continue this parasite way of life by not sending them to school and make them beg and steal on the streets is very hard not to hate them and want them to leave your town or village because we pay for all their shit and they get away with almost anything because nobody not even the police wants to have anything to do with them.
gypsies are a terrible problem in france. they come in with their goddamned caravans and camp on private property, they break into a town's power and water grid to get shit off OUR backs while not paying ANYTHING. THEN, they fucking come into our homes to rob us, sometimes killing and/or raping the occupants if they're unfortunate enough to be home at the time.
I have no clear understanding as to why exactly they are like that, because any fench person will tell you, yes blacks and arabs in france often cause trouble, but the majority of them are decent, law abiding citizen, however the majority of gypsies are A) thieves, B) drug dealers, C) beggars, D) street performers or all of the above. and the street performers can be annoying, but i dont mind them, the beggars are also not a big problem, but such a huge percentage of roms are either a or b that its a very real problem.
although, from ClouD's post i imagine Italy may have it worst. I know one thing though, my home was robbed(or attempted robbery) three times. all three times coincide with Roms moving in close by, not a coincidence. Last year they actually invaded the town's football pitch! it took ages to drive them out, until cops basically harassed them by writing them up for any and all tiny infractions in order to get them out.
wow i had no idea about the whole gypsy situation, but that's because i'm in australia
how is it that an entire ethnic group is so hated and fixed in their ways? doesn't seem to be any other ethnic group like this. while indigenous australians are much worse off than other groups in australia, it seems to be largely from a lack of opportunity and historically they were treated terribly. they do get a lot of special treatment now, but it doesn't seem like the right kind of treatment and like gypsies, there have been issues integrating them. but they don't hang together in groups and steal shit. i just don't get how an entire culture can be based around immoral stuff like that. how can people not be generalising here?
also, when people say "gypsy" does it refer to the romani ethnic group or just the subgroup roma?
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
On September 28 2011 00:34 Probe1 wrote: Euronyme there have been a lot of prejudicial things said in this thread but I dare you to find one quote of someone suggesting extermination.
It was on the front page.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
User was temp banned for this post.
See how it says temp banned? All I see are more and more riots happening from the responses in this thread and elsewhere on the internet. Enjoy another 1100 years of hating each other....
Talking like a true citizen of the only country to be in a continual state of war with someone for the last 30 years.
On September 28 2011 00:39 Probe1 wrote: n00b3rt it reads like all 10 of the kids are posting in this thread~ Post a fuckin solution instead of blanketing every single person of one group as murderous leeches.
read my post before being dumb. You have more than 6k posts, and you still haven't learnt to read those of others ? if it's too long for you, don't make comments about it while insulting me. And if you are so smart maybe you can give a solution ?
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends.
You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes.
Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
I'm not making wild assumptions though about how 90% of them refuse to work, that's what I'm criticizing; you stating things as facts when you in fact really can't back it up. I'm not claiming to know how the situation actually is, like you are.
And you say you live with them blabla, and think that your opinion therefore can be applied to an entire population, well guess what, your opinion doesn't matter on a larger scale unless you can actively back it up.
Instead of condemning Gypsies, why aren't you condemning all people who murder, rape etc. You don't know any of these numbers, neither do I; but you are acting like you're the one sitting on the truths.
Actually it's not a "wild assumption" friend. The 2001 and 2006 romanian census found that 92% and 94% of the roma population was unemployed and not looking for work.
No point to argue with statistician. You don`t have the numbers, you are wrong. Well i guess living in Bulgaria my whole life, doesnt mean i have an idea about stuff in Bulgaria. No need to reply to this genius.
also, when people say "gypsy" does it refer to the romani ethnic group or just the subgroup roma?
well gypsy is called "cigany, cigani etc" in eastern europe, they make reference to themselves using this word aswell, however it have a pejorative tone. now commonly used towards the romani people who live the remarkable lifestyle mentioned in this thread. the PC and official term for them is now roma, but they dont call themselves to roma either. different countrys may consider other people to gypsys aswell, for example the english oftenly refers to irish travellers with the same word.
On September 28 2011 00:39 Probe1 wrote: n00b3rt it reads like all 10 of the kids are posting in this thread~ Post a fuckin solution instead of blanketing every single person of one group as murderous leeches.
read my post before being dumb. You have more than 6k posts, and you still haven't learnt to read those of others ? if it's too long for you, don't make comments about it while insulting me. And if you are so smart maybe you can give a solution ?
Wow you like, totally didn't read any page of the thread but your own. Of course I read your post. And I also posted the need for a moderate solution that I, not being a native Bulgarian, would not have the wherewithal to come up with.
.. nevermind that was in irc. This is raging in more than one forum. How about, instead of me coming up with a solution- let's hear yours. Bonus points if it isn't fucking nuts.
Can someone elaborate on what exactly a gypsy.. is? I don't get it. I'm having a hard time finding a definition which seems to fit what's being talked about in this thread.
On September 28 2011 00:46 Motivate wrote: wow i had no idea about the whole gypsy situation, but that's because i'm in australia
how is it that an entire ethnic group is so hated and fixed in their ways? doesn't seem to be any other ethnic group like this. while indigenous australians are much worse off than other groups in australia, it seems to be largely from a lack of opportunity and historically they were treated terribly. they do get a lot of special treatment now, but it doesn't seem like the right kind of treatment and like gypsies, there have been issues integrating them. but they don't hang together in groups and steal shit. i just don't get how an entire culture can be based around immoral stuff like that. how can people not be generalising here?
also, when people say "gypsy" does it refer to the romani ethnic group or just the subgroup roma?
having lived in australia, i can tell you that aborigens dont get nearly as bad a wrap as gypsies. the general feeling on them was ranging from indifference to mild disgust. come to France, EVERYONE here despise gyspies, there are NO exceptions.
On September 28 2011 00:34 Probe1 wrote: Euronyme there have been a lot of prejudicial things said in this thread but I dare you to find one quote of someone suggesting extermination.
It was on the front page.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
User was temp banned for this post.
See how it says temp banned? All I see are more and more riots happening from the responses in this thread and elsewhere on the internet. Enjoy another 1100 years of hating each other....
Talking like a true citizen of the only country to be in a continual state of war with someone for the last 30 years.
Enlighten me. Korea was 60 years ago and the largest legitimate war the United States was listed a belligerent in was Grenada, ending within the same year it began.
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends.
You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes.
Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
I'm not making wild assumptions though about how 90% of them refuse to work, that's what I'm criticizing; you stating things as facts when you in fact really can't back it up. I'm not claiming to know how the situation actually is, like you are.
And you say you live with them blabla, and think that your opinion therefore can be applied to an entire population, well guess what, your opinion doesn't matter on a larger scale unless you can actively back it up.
Instead of condemning Gypsies, why aren't you condemning all people who murder, rape etc. You don't know any of these numbers, neither do I; but you are acting like you're the one sitting on the truths.
Actually it's not a "wild assumption" friend. The 2001 and 2006 romanian census found that 92% and 94% of the roma population was unemployed and not looking for work.
No point to argue with statistician. You don`t have the numbers, you are wrong. Well i guess living in Bulgaria my whole life, doesnt mean i have an idea about stuff in Bulgaria. No need to reply to this genius.
The hell? He said that the vast majority of gypsies were unemployed and not looking for work. He's not only agreeing there is a problem, he's posting eveidence as well. Why attack a person trying to prove your point?
People here are missing the point. The reason for the protests had little to do with racism. The actual trigger was the terror caused by a gypsy mobster, who had been protected by the authorities for over a decade. Please read the following very informative post:
On September 27 2011 22:10 speedphlux wrote: OK, first off, this problem doesn't have any sort of racial hatred to it. It's an act vs. crime and corruption in Bulgaria, rather then vs. gypsies. But sadly it has created a lot of tension in the wrong direction, mainly ticked off by Rupert Murdock's bTV media outlet in here, who are just after cheap sensations. The main protests were vs. Kiril Rashkov and his family, who plagued the area of over a decade now. The police and the authorities have done nothing to prevent it and the people from that area has risen up to ask for their expulsion from the area. The murder of the 19 years old boy was the spark that caused that flame to burst out. In the following protests, another young man died due to heart failure (he was reported to have an artificial clamp or w/e on his heart). In the early stages of the protests, a member of the Rashkov family got in a car and drove thru a crowd of people, injuring quite a few. I'm sure about at least 4 police officers who have limbs broken, but I'm sure there are other civilians hurt as well. After in the initial protests the house and few of the cars of the Rashkov family caught fire, Kiril Rashkov came on television, threatening that he'll "cut the throats" of those responsible and that he'll "call in reinforcements from other gypsy tribes". In the aftermath, the gypsy head court of justice, known as "The Meshkere", sentenced Kiril Rashkov to death by hanging, but since that court has no real value, the sentence can't be performed and has absolutely no jurisdictial value. The actions of the court mean that pretty much no other gypsy clan would aid the Rashkov family, so there's no ground for racial hatred. Of course, we have the usual nationalistic parties, trying to "ride the protest", but the people from the area are pretty much neglecting the political side of things. The only political aspect of the whole deal is that all the authorities haven't done their job already and that had to happen. Gypsies from all over the country are scared to let their kids to school and refuse to go to work themselves, due to random, unorganized, shady activities by nationalistic bikers, but the main line is that this protest isn't targeting the gypsies.
On September 28 2011 00:53 Mohdoo wrote: Can someone elaborate on what exactly a gypsy.. is? I don't get it. I'm having a hard time finding a definition which seems to fit what's being talked about in this thread.
a gypsy is so,eone who comes from romania/bulgaria but is actually a different ethnicity, their skin is darker then the romanians/bulgarians. they are a society of thieves, crooks and drug peddlers, they like to live in caravans leeching off of people and robbing them, they will do anything for money and they do not do this out of necessity (gypsie towing caravans with BMW X5 sup) but rather because they like it and are proud of this bullshit crap they pull.
there is only one defense agaisnt gypsies, guard dogs. they hate dogs
If the gypsies are as bad as those who have experience with them say...then maybe the gypsies should be shipped to an island, similar to how Australia started.
The governments affected should band together, collect a large pool of funds, and surround the gypsy towns with big tin walls. Then they would close in, and place the gypsies into trucks (with food and water of course). And then they could be shipped to an island with a few coconut trees, where they can start their own glorious society . I hope there are actually places left...we need new penal colonies.
On September 28 2011 00:46 Motivate wrote: wow i had no idea about the whole gypsy situation, but that's because i'm in australia
how is it that an entire ethnic group is so hated and fixed in their ways? doesn't seem to be any other ethnic group like this. while indigenous australians are much worse off than other groups in australia, it seems to be largely from a lack of opportunity and historically they were treated terribly. they do get a lot of special treatment now, but it doesn't seem like the right kind of treatment and like gypsies, there have been issues integrating them. but they don't hang together in groups and steal shit. i just don't get how an entire culture can be based around immoral stuff like that. how can people not be generalising here?
also, when people say "gypsy" does it refer to the romani ethnic group or just the subgroup roma?
having lived in australia, i can tell you that aborigens dont get nearly as bad a wrap as gypsies. the general feeling on them was ranging from indifference to mild disgust. come to France, EVERYONE here despise gyspies, there are NO exceptions.
that's true, and the view is generally that indigenous australians are disadvantaged at no fault of their own.
but what i don't understand is how can gypsies be an ethnic group, rather than a culture? it doesn't really make sense how an entire ethnic group can be like that.
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends.
You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes.
Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
I'm not making wild assumptions though about how 90% of them refuse to work, that's what I'm criticizing; you stating things as facts when you in fact really can't back it up. I'm not claiming to know how the situation actually is, like you are.
And you say you live with them blabla, and think that your opinion therefore can be applied to an entire population, well guess what, your opinion doesn't matter on a larger scale unless you can actively back it up.
Instead of condemning Gypsies, why aren't you condemning all people who murder, rape etc. You don't know any of these numbers, neither do I; but you are acting like you're the one sitting on the truths.
Actually it's not a "wild assumption" friend. The 2001 and 2006 romanian census found that 92% and 94% of the roma population was unemployed and not looking for work.
No point to argue with statistician. You don`t have the numbers, you are wrong. Well i guess living in Bulgaria my whole life, doesnt mean i have an idea about stuff in Bulgaria. No need to reply to this genius.
The hell? He said that the vast majority of gypsies were unemployed and not looking for work. He's not only agreeing there is a problem, he's posting eveidence as well. Why attack a person trying to prove your point?
Im just saying its no use to argue with people who only wants numbers. Im not attacking the guy jesus -_-
On September 28 2011 00:53 Mohdoo wrote: Can someone elaborate on what exactly a gypsy.. is? I don't get it. I'm having a hard time finding a definition which seems to fit what's being talked about in this thread.
Indians that travelled West around 1000 years ago. Now they live mainly in eastern Europe causing alot of trouble as you can see in this thread.
On September 28 2011 00:46 Motivate wrote: wow i had no idea about the whole gypsy situation, but that's because i'm in australia
how is it that an entire ethnic group is so hated and fixed in their ways? doesn't seem to be any other ethnic group like this. while indigenous australians are much worse off than other groups in australia, it seems to be largely from a lack of opportunity and historically they were treated terribly. they do get a lot of special treatment now, but it doesn't seem like the right kind of treatment and like gypsies, there have been issues integrating them. but they don't hang together in groups and steal shit. i just don't get how an entire culture can be based around immoral stuff like that. how can people not be generalising here?
also, when people say "gypsy" does it refer to the romani ethnic group or just the subgroup roma?
having lived in australia, i can tell you that aborigens dont get nearly as bad a wrap as gypsies. the general feeling on them was ranging from indifference to mild disgust. come to France, EVERYONE here despise gyspies, there are NO exceptions.
that's true, and the view is generally that indigenous australians are disadvantaged at no fault of their own.
but what i don't understand is how can gypsies be an ethnic group, rather than a culture? it doesn't really make sense how an entire ethnic group can be like that.
They are an ethnic group since they have the same ethnicity. They are from the indian subcontinent and they emigrated to europe some 1300 years ago.
On September 28 2011 00:53 Mohdoo wrote: Can someone elaborate on what exactly a gypsy.. is? I don't get it. I'm having a hard time finding a definition which seems to fit what's being talked about in this thread.
a gypsy is so,eone who comes from romania/bulgaria but is actually a different ethnicity, their skin is darker then the romanians/bulgarians. they are a society of thieves, crooks and drug peddlers, they like to live in caravans leeching off of people and robbing them, they will do anything for money and they do not do this out of necessity (gypsie towing caravans with BMW X5 sup) but rather because they like it and are proud of this bullshit crap they pull.
there is only one defense agaisnt gypsies, guard dogs. they hate dogs
A bit harsh maybe
But you can watch this BBC documentary called "Gypsy Child Thieves" (focuses mainly on gypsies in spain/france/italy).
Shows some of the problems that people have with gypsies. Very good documentary if you are confused as to why so many people dislike gypsies, explains a lot.
On September 28 2011 00:39 Probe1 wrote: n00b3rt it reads like all 10 of the kids are posting in this thread~ Post a fuckin solution instead of blanketing every single person of one group as murderous leeches.
read my post before being dumb. You have more than 6k posts, and you still haven't learnt to read those of others ? if it's too long for you, don't make comments about it while insulting me. And if you are so smart maybe you can give a solution ?
Wow you like, totally didn't read any page of the thread but your own. Of course I read your post. And I also posted the need for a moderate solution that I, not being a native Bulgarian, would not have the wherewithal to come up with.
.. nevermind that was in irc. This is raging in more than one forum. How about, instead of me coming up with a solution- let's hear yours. Bonus points if it isn't fucking nuts.
or instead how about not playing the statue of ethics and morality and preaching bullshit with the intention of trolling people who been fed up with a very serious problem. guess what, gypsys were travellers who been welcomed by many host countrys famous for the hospitality. theyve been guests, and as far as i know the host free to decide if the guests presence is burdensome or not. if in case it is, the host may ask them to abide his rules or leave. or make them leave with force if needed. we are here now, theyll be expelled at one point. the only question is, which will be the less violent way, but unfortunately its up for them and most people dont have bright expectation.
i think you would not have a problem with the scenario i walk into your house, eat up your food, shitting to the floor and when u ask me to behave or leave id spit u in the face. nah man... you would just call the police who would shock me to near death with the teaser gun than took me out unconcious.
What?! I see swedish and finns complaining about easter europeans treatment of gypsies?! Well the hypocrisy! You "returned" hundreds of gypsies back to Romania! Why didn't your country keep the poor folks?
And this is getting stupid. We're not speaking about hate against a race (racism) but hate against a behavior (and unfortunately, it's common for gypsies to act as such) and to dislike everyone who acts this way no matter his ethnicity.
On September 28 2011 00:39 Probe1 wrote: n00b3rt it reads like all 10 of the kids are posting in this thread~ Post a fuckin solution instead of blanketing every single person of one group as murderous leeches.
read my post before being dumb. You have more than 6k posts, and you still haven't learnt to read those of others ? if it's too long for you, don't make comments about it while insulting me. And if you are so smart maybe you can give a solution ?
Wow you like, totally didn't read any page of the thread but your own. Of course I read your post. And I also posted the need for a moderate solution that I, not being a native Bulgarian, would not have the wherewithal to come up with.
.. nevermind that was in irc. This is raging in more than one forum. How about, instead of me coming up with a solution- let's hear yours. Bonus points if it isn't fucking nuts.
If there's any solution, the person acting on it would better have no family or friends. Or they'll share the same fate as the boy, whose death started the protests. I don't quite get if you're talking about the gypsy problem, or what this thread is actually about. If it isn't for the latter, please stop derailing. You said you've read my post, so I'd figure you already know that the major problem here aren't gypsies
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends.
You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes.
Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
I'm not making wild assumptions though about how 90% of them refuse to work, that's what I'm criticizing; you stating things as facts when you in fact really can't back it up. I'm not claiming to know how the situation actually is, like you are.
And you say you live with them blabla, and think that your opinion therefore can be applied to an entire population, well guess what, your opinion doesn't matter on a larger scale unless you can actively back it up.
Instead of condemning Gypsies, why aren't you condemning all people who murder, rape etc. You don't know any of these numbers, neither do I; but you are acting like you're the one sitting on the truths.
Actually it's not a "wild assumption" friend. The 2001 and 2006 romanian census found that 92% and 94% of the roma population was unemployed and not looking for work.
No point to argue with statistician. You don`t have the numbers, you are wrong. Well i guess living in Bulgaria my whole life, doesnt mean i have an idea about stuff in Bulgaria. No need to reply to this genius.
The hell? He said that the vast majority of gypsies were unemployed and not looking for work. He's not only agreeing there is a problem, he's posting eveidence as well. Why attack a person trying to prove your point?
Im just saying its no use to argue with people who only wants numbers. Im not attacking the guy jesus -_-
My point was just that your post came off a bit agressive towards an outsider (he's canadian) that agrees with us, since the prevalent opinion of people not directly affected with the gypsy problem is that we're primitive racists who want a new holocaust.
On September 28 2011 00:46 Motivate wrote: wow i had no idea about the whole gypsy situation, but that's because i'm in australia
how is it that an entire ethnic group is so hated and fixed in their ways? doesn't seem to be any other ethnic group like this. while indigenous australians are much worse off than other groups in australia, it seems to be largely from a lack of opportunity and historically they were treated terribly. they do get a lot of special treatment now, but it doesn't seem like the right kind of treatment and like gypsies, there have been issues integrating them. but they don't hang together in groups and steal shit. i just don't get how an entire culture can be based around immoral stuff like that. how can people not be generalising here?
also, when people say "gypsy" does it refer to the romani ethnic group or just the subgroup roma?
having lived in australia, i can tell you that aborigens dont get nearly as bad a wrap as gypsies. the general feeling on them was ranging from indifference to mild disgust. come to France, EVERYONE here despise gyspies, there are NO exceptions.
that's true, and the view is generally that indigenous australians are disadvantaged at no fault of their own.
but what i don't understand is how can gypsies be an ethnic group, rather than a culture? it doesn't really make sense how an entire ethnic group can be like that.
its a mystery to everyone. I know that i've seen 3 types of indigenous australians in my time living in perth, the alcoholics who seem depressed, the lower class guy, and the ones that are lower middle class and trying to better their lot.
crimes, as far as i could tell, were committed by either aborigenese, bikers or poor white people. I could not look at an aborigen and think "careful, he'll try to rob me" it was in the back of my mind faintly, but i wasnt wary, i just told myself it was a stereotype and unless he bumped into me i didnt care.
I see a gypsy walking towards me, im keeping a hand on my wallet and phone
Reminds me of a case in the UK a while back where a Traveller kid (lives in caravan and moves around a lot, but not ethnically a 'gypsy') got pretty brutally murdered in Liverpool. Something like he was held down and repeatedly got his skull kicked in. In court the buggers who did it (older boys from the school he was attending I think) defended themselves by saying he 'was only a gypo', or words to that effect. However, the judge refused to class it as a hate crime (which holds a much higher sentencing time), because he judged that 'Gypsy' wasn't a race. I remember thinking it was pretty stupid.
More relevantly, at the school I went to, we had to walk across a park to get to the playing fields ect, and most summers a group of travellers would settle there, usually a dozen or so caravans. The people were quite, well, chav-y, but I still felt really uncomfortable when my friends would complain about them as 'fucking gypsys', or whatnot. Don't know how much of it was joking, but there is definitely a huge public prejudice against persons of no fixed abode.
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends.
You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes.
Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
I'm not making wild assumptions though about how 90% of them refuse to work, that's what I'm criticizing; you stating things as facts when you in fact really can't back it up. I'm not claiming to know how the situation actually is, like you are.
And you say you live with them blabla, and think that your opinion therefore can be applied to an entire population, well guess what, your opinion doesn't matter on a larger scale unless you can actively back it up.
Instead of condemning Gypsies, why aren't you condemning all people who murder, rape etc. You don't know any of these numbers, neither do I; but you are acting like you're the one sitting on the truths.
Actually it's not a "wild assumption" friend. The 2001 and 2006 romanian census found that 92% and 94% of the roma population was unemployed and not looking for work.
No point to argue with statistician. You don`t have the numbers, you are wrong. Well i guess living in Bulgaria my whole life, doesnt mean i have an idea about stuff in Bulgaria. No need to reply to this genius.
The hell? He said that the vast majority of gypsies were unemployed and not looking for work. He's not only agreeing there is a problem, he's posting eveidence as well. Why attack a person trying to prove your point?
Im just saying its no use to argue with people who only wants numbers. Im not attacking the guy jesus -_-
My point was just that your post came off a bit agressive towards an outsider (he's canadian) that agrees with us, since the prevalent opinion of people not directly affected with the gypsy problem is that we're primitive racists who want a new holocaust.
I should mention this :p
I'm from Romania but living in Canada.
Which is funny since I have came across some of the only roma people that have been let in by the canadian government, when they allowed Hungary visas to Canada. They don't allow them in anymore though. I wonder why.
On September 28 2011 00:55 amagumo wrote: I don't know if it is a translational error but, from the news site, what does "A crowd of fans" refer to specifically?
There are bunch of football team organized supporters groups, that joined hands to make those protests possible all over the country. It's kinda amazing to see fans of bitter rivals, who would otherwise be kicking each others teeth out at the first opportunity, joining hands to protest vs. crime and corruption. Of course, there are racists within those groups (normal feature for european football fan clubs), but that shouldn't distract the protesters from their main goal - getting rid of Kiril Rashkov reign of crime in that region.
You should all come visit with me in Toronto in their community. I'll be your guide. I'm not responsible for any business decisions you make in the building.
On September 27 2011 23:44 Pika Chu wrote: Unfortunately, no matter how open minded you are no matter how tolerant, when you live in a country/city with a lot of gypsies you're eventually going to have enough of it.
And what people wrote is true, they don't want to change! Because it's easier to steal/rob/kill than work for money. The ruling gypsies are rich as fuck and they also control the police and have good business relations with political leaders (you think they couldn't stop the sex slavery if they wanted to).
It's easy to live somewhere where you don't interact with gypsies and say "omg, don't discriminate.. poor guys, they are like the jews" but it's hard to impossible when you have to live with them. Why? They don't fear authorities, don't fear police, don't fear justice. Don't wanna work, don't want to study, don't want to follow any norms of the society. Of course there are exceptions, of great gypsies or normal gypsies who are having a life just as a normal romanian... but it's rare.. under 1%.
I have two problems with this kind of attitude. The first is that it's unfair towards those who try to lead a normal life. It's hard enough if you come from a poor uneducated family that probably doesn't care too much about getting a degree. But then they have to deal with idiots along the way who instead of giving them credit actually lump them together with those who steal.
I'm not saying you are doing that but unfortunately many are and that sort of hardcore genetic racism isn't really comdemned hard enough.
The second one is that it's ignoring the reality of the situation. We're talking about a huge number of people with higher growth rates than the general population. What people are doing is basically venting. It's leading nowhere. There isn't going to be mass deportation or worse. The problem is here to stay so we might as well try looking for solutions.
Here in Hungary we've seen both liberal and more authoritarian approaches. It didn't seem to make a difference either way. What does work (at least some of the time) when people engage on a community level. But you can't engage people unless you show a basic level of respect towards them.
I've worked as a voluntary tutor for poor kids. More than half of them Roma. From what I've seen they are just like normal kids. Maybe a little less accepting of authority. Sometimes unmotivated but no worse than the average middle school kid.
More importantly I've talked with a lot of teachers working in special education and heard stories of how kids were sent there mostly because of behavioural problems. A teacher told me how 90% of those deemed fit for "normal" education at the end of year assessment were Roma. No wonder, they shouldn't have been in special ed in the first place. Or how Roma kids were bullied about being stupid by their non-Roma classmates. Yeah, Roma kids get bullied too and the bullying is based on stereotypes we as adults spread.
The question isn't whether the prejudices we have are justified or not. The question is whether it's making the problem better or worse. And I think the majority of people think about this is actually making the problem worse, not better.
There are some gipsys in my country as well and i can say that from a minority prespective they are the most hated in Portugal.
Forget gay, black, asian etc.. etc. gipsys are the most hated race because they don't mingle with the rest of our nation or culture, they stay away from everything that is not gipsy! If you fall in love in a gipsy women you are basiclly fucked because they will hunt you down and they have a mob mentality like "if you touch one of us, you touch all of us"!
Most of them are always connected with crime, drug abuse and dealing, women abuse(since they marry their daughters at really young age), robbing and selling ilegal and pirated stuff!
I don't really hate them but i don't like their traditions and culture simply because it goes against the Women and Men rights and because they still live in a almost medieval society..
Send your girls to school, clean yourselves, learn and work, don't live outside of society or else society will never accept you. Living off crime, subsidies and selling crap goods is not a good life for you or your children.
In my opinion there isn't much space in european society for people that think like nomads and live with us but outside of our society. If they want that life go and live in Siberia where you can be free... here in the concrete jungle you have to follow the rules!
On September 28 2011 00:53 Mohdoo wrote: Can someone elaborate on what exactly a gypsy.. is? I don't get it. I'm having a hard time finding a definition which seems to fit what's being talked about in this thread.
a gypsy is so,eone who comes from romania/bulgaria but is actually a different ethnicity, their skin is darker then the romanians/bulgarians. they are a society of thieves, crooks and drug peddlers, they like to live in caravans leeching off of people and robbing them, they will do anything for money and they do not do this out of necessity (gypsie towing caravans with BMW X5 sup) but rather because they like it and are proud of this bullshit crap they pull.
there is only one defense agaisnt gypsies, guard dogs. they hate dogs
A bit harsh maybe
But you can watch this BBC documentary called "Gypsy Child Thieves" (focuses mainly on gypsies in spain/france/italy).
Shows some of the problems that people have with gypsies. Very good documentary if you are confused as to why so many people dislike gypsies, explains a lot.
a bit harsh? maybe so, however everything i said is 100% personal experience, not third hand crap, thats all stuff i experienced personally
On September 27 2011 21:18 Passion wrote: "The people had only one requirement. They wanted all gypsies to leave the village immediately."
That's not really normal, is it? One member of a minority community causes an accident ("...ran over a 19-year-old Bulgarian man.") and they all must leave?
The source seems rather dodgy in general, making statements such as "In Europe, gypsies live in France, Germany and many other countries of Western Europe. They live separately from the society and make their living on drugs, swindling and robbery."
On September 27 2011 21:10 Probe1 wrote: Sorry, did you just compare the deportation of Roma peoples from France, Europe, Bulgaria et al to the Nazi extermination of groups they deemed undesirable? ...
Why do you deem this comparison so far fetched? The step from deportation to extermination isn't THAT huge. It both starts with the idea that these people don't have the right to live (here).
Seriously..... did you just state that deportation is close to extermination??????? I'm actually dumbfounded... Hmmm would I rather be forced to move or gassed to death? Come on man lol there is a god damn hue difference between believe they don't have a right to live and don't have a right to live here, comparing the two is like apples and oranges.
It's a bad circle. Gypsies have always had their own culture which have resulted in some alienation from the societies they live in. Polarization brings different groups to protect their own and gypsies are even more alienated. Being outside society they have a harder time getting regular jobs which seems to have fostered a culture of criminality (this is a generalization of course, there are morals and a will to make an honest living in "gypsy culture" as well of course).
I think it's important to combat racism because the only way this is ending happily is with the integration of gypsies into "mainstream" culture. What does the people supporting violence against and deportation of gypsies hope to accomplish? Europe is their home.
Can some mod fix the OP coz I find it misleading and that led to all the ethnic and racial dispute in here. The protests in Bulgaria were not riots and they're not againts gypsies,romani, roms or whatever you'd like to call them. They are againts the inability of our authorities to deal with a proven criminal for 20 years now. The death of the young 19 years old boy was not accident and was a direct result of the fact that the authorities did not do their jobs. I'm sure there are other posts in this tread that can be quoted about the situation. I just can't be arsed to look around for them, since they all got buried under racial and ethnical hatred so quickly -.-::
Italy has a huge gypsy problem. I don't like them. When 100+ persons live in a camp on the road with roulottes etc and none of them work, how can they survive if not by illegal stuff?
marttorn here is the clearest example that maybe someone should make a thread about the so called "gypsy problem" (a thread that I won't risk even taking a glimpse in) while this remains on topic. Just look at the post above you, bro :/
Probably because it was just a username and a wikipedia link, rather than a contribution to the nuanced discussion at hand. If you want to cite evidence from wikipedia, I'm sure it's acceptable to do so-- but you should probably include a quotation in addition to your link, as well as an explanation as to how it fits into your general argument.
That being said, I'm concerned about the tensions between the romani people and many european countries. As an American, I probably don't have the most information on this sort of thing-- but I hope that nobody gets hurt. I'll keep an eye on the news as this story develops, and try to do more research before formulating an opinion. This seems like a very divisive issue.
Yeah, Czech republic has similar issues too. It's basically a problem nobody has a solution for and you can't really throw money at it to make it go away. On rational level I agree that the violence and aggression isn't going to solve anything, but people are getting sick of the positive discrimination they receive (mostly because government officials don't want to deal with them too) and then you get outbursts like this. I'm also really skeptical towards media reporting on these issue where basically gypsies never do anything wrong and they are clever enough to not be caught with their hands in the cookie jar.
One example for all, they often make money by selling "old" iron, so they steal sewer hatches. They also know what is the maximal amount they can try to sell without prosecution, so the police is powerless except just taking the hatches away.
In the evolutionary sense, they are very successful as a race, they survive by piggybacking on the modern society and we lack sufficient countermeasures. They also know how to paint themselves as the oppressed and in need of help. Goal of our lives is usually some personal success, marriage and building our own home. For them, it's usually the easiest route wins, so it's not unheard of for an entire family to live on wellfare and just have children so they have more money and not care about them at all. Hell, I even know of a family who made a house fall on themselves because they sawed off the wooden pillars to how some wood to burn.
To make this problem go away you need decades of hard community work and even then the success isn't certain. It's something nobody in the current economic climate wants to do so it's limited into violent outbursts. It's a lot easier to call somebody racist from a distance and condemn their actions, but once you live next to them, you start to understand, racism in this case isn't unprovoked.
I love how our beloved government is painting the unrest as racial hatred. It's not. The communist "elite" is trying to quell the protests because they're scared that a mass unrest is going to turn on them - and with good reason. Most people that don't live in Bulgaria will have a hard time grasping the political reality in the country, but it's very simple. The communist regime never left. They're just pretending that we're democratic now. Just an example - our current prime minister was the head bodyguard of Todor Zhivkov. Another example: Ahmed Dogan, leader of the movement opposing the "renaissance" process that was undertaken by the communist party was... an agent of the homeland security division of the same party.
Everyone is pretty much trying to milk as much as possible from the country, its people be damned. Selling factories for pocket change, inventing new taxes... I could go on for quite a bit. Thank god for that 19 km road that one guy or another built to help us grow economically...
Every single one of our political clique is pretty much the same. And they all need to go. Only then can we actually accomplish something instead of fleeing abroad.
You guys are seriously derailing this thread. It's about the riots that are currently going on against a gypsy mafia boss who murdered 2 people, not the gypsy problem in general.
On September 28 2011 02:12 Nikon wrote: I love how our beloved government is painting the unrest as racial hatred. It's not. The communist "elite" is trying to quell the protests because they're scared that a mass unrest is going to turn on them - and with good reason. Most people that don't live in Bulgaria will have a hard time grasping the political reality in the country, but it's very simple. The communist regime never left. They're just pretending that we're democratic now. Just an example - our current prime minister was the head bodyguard of Todor Zhivkov. Another example: Ahmed Dogan, leader of the movement opposing the "renaissance" process that was undertaken by the communist party was... an agent of the homeland security division of the same party.
Every single one of our political clique is pretty much the same. And they all need to go. Only then can we actually accomplish something instead of fleeing abroad.
An old saying around here says that "Democracy" was invented by the communists to spend the money they stole more "freely" xD
Probably because it was just a username and a wikipedia link, rather than a contribution to the nuanced discussion at hand. If you want to cite evidence from wikipedia, I'm sure it's acceptable to do so-- but you should probably include a quotation in addition to your link, as well as an explanation as to how it fits into your general argument.
That being said, I'm concerned about the tensions between the romani people and many european countries. As an American, I probably don't have the most information on this sort of thing-- but I hope that nobody gets hurt. I'll keep an eye on the news as this story develops, and try to do more research before formulating an opinion. This seems like a very divisive issue.
read above, it was quite clearly misinterpreted that he called an entire race a plague, but rather he was just addressing a question from someone with the same username
don't really blame the mod, i interpreted it that way at first as well
Well there is no denying that Gypsies are REALLY unpopular in Bulgaria. My Bulgarian Family (my grandfather comes from a small village in Bulgaria) speaks very lowly of them and were pretty unwilling to sell my great-grandmother's house to them after she died...
From what I've heard their accusations sound just stupidly racist, but there you go, most of them believe Gypsies are bad for a community.
I think there are large racist undertones in a lot of what is being done gypsies are probably bad for a community .. just like chavs, yardies and all those pink people i see walking about.
The problem is this
When you dont have money you have a lot less options about what you can do.
Now cash is tight people are having to make decisions that really they 'dont want' to do.
I'd say very few people who are idealists survive in politics which means the only ones left are the slippery bastards who are probably pushing their own agendas under any flag they can find. so yeah i think there are recist agendas being followed.
Is europs becoming racist? No the whole west is becomming more so ... especially given all i was taught about 'never again' . However what i have learnt since is that when you free a group from oppression their first reaction is to be absolute bastards to those that oppressed them (yes im talking about the jews, iraqis and lately (and no doubt soon to come) the libyans) which just acts as vindication and makes the point ... who the hell are we to take the moral high ground?
I notice the only countries that *really* care about this are wealthy the rest are called third world and 'they are just struggling to survive' ... so racism sucks, it really shouldn't exist, but at the end of the day things are finite and you have to at some point make an irrational decision about who gets what. At which point Goodwins law will be invoked. Ie Right + Wrong vs necessity.
Rofl, apparently, several people that are 75+ years old were arrested for hooliganism. They took part in a peaceful protest in the capitol. This is some kind of a grotesque joke.
I lived in a flat as a kid and we had gypsy neighbours in the next door, I remember they tried to steal my young sisters bike once, thats normal for them. My mother had to nearly fight to get it back. They moved out some time after, probably got kicked out. When our bathroom was getting repaired we had to use the gypsies one. Even though they had moved out already, the fucking smell in the apartment was sickening. Ive never smelled anything that bad before, like dead animal mixed with piss and shit. If you see a beggar on the streets in bigger towns here, then its 99% a gypsy. They tend to hand out red roses for free to people on the streets, but want you to pay after you recieved it. Ive noticed that its only their women and children begging, which is sad. They need to learn how to adapt to a modern society.
Was going to the university the other day,some gypsy kids asked me money and I refused to give them any,so they started throwing stones at me.There was 4-5 of them so I had to run. A few months ago some old gypsy women asked me money,I opened my wallet to give them a few coins and they stole from my wallet a 50 euro bill,it was so fast I couldnt react. Last year they beat a student so badly the guy barely made it alive and yet the police acts like they dont exist. Some gypsies in my town take off the skin from small animals just for fun,it is the most disgusting thing you can see. Gypsies are parasites and whoever says the opposite simply doesnt have any of them in their country.I dont see any solution to this problem since we are living in an age where they f*ck us in the ass and we cant do nothing about it.
On September 28 2011 02:31 Nikon wrote: Rofl, apparently, several people that are 75+ years old were arrested for hooliganism. They took part in a peaceful protest in the capitol. This is some kind of a grotesque joke.
Nah, this is the Police State our Prime Minister - Boko The Pumpkin (because he has the IQ of a pumpkin (NOTE : If any pumpkins feel offended from this compare, please forgive me)) and his BFF - Tzv-Tzv, have created. As for those 75+ years old hooligans that got arrested ... well, I've seen some very naughty 75+ years old, so I'm sure those deserved it :D Hooliganism doesn't knows age mate, just like stupidity :D
I don't post here much anymore, but just wanted to say that people like Probe_1 are fucking ignorant and should do themselves a favor by not posting in a thread about a problem they have ZERO understanding of, that is all.
On September 28 2011 00:30 Probe1 wrote:
Edit: Estimated Roma population of US- 50k Estimated Roma population of Bulgaria- 75k
:\ and thieving gypsys are like the very least of our social problems.
Where the hell did you come up with those ridiculous estimates, seriously dude you're a joke.
To stay on topic at the moment there are protests going on in the major cities of the country and in the capitol Sofia and the 3rd largest city in the country Varna there are clashes with the police who are trying to stop the protests saying that the protesters don't have a permission to conduct a protest. In the other cities where protests are held they are still peaceful.
It's hilarious how the liberals claim that gypsies are victims. I bet 2/3 of the people saying these things live in the US or western Europe. I bet the liberals don't know that if you walk the streets of Romania and see and an BMW X5 or any other car with a similar price tag, there's a 40-50% chance the driver is a gypsy. I bet they don't know that if a gypsy mugs someone, or hospitalizes him just for the fun of it, the price of the clothing and jewelry on his body at the time of the attack is very likely to be greater than his victim's paycheck. I bet they don't know that a couple of months ago, after a gypsy on gypsy violent incident, the leader of one clan payed the leader of the other clan a ludicrous amount of money as a "symbolic appeal for forgiveness" or some shit. Something like 300 000 euros. I bet the liberals don't know that less than 20% of romanians even know what that kind of money means. I bet they also don't know that gypsies that commit violent crime have ties with cops, politicians and other influential individuals and thus regularly go unpunished. If we were to identify the one feature that defines virtually all gypsies, it is the utmost lack of respect for anything and everything. Whether it's marrying their children at 7 or parking their cars between tombstones and having a barbecue in the cemetery (something I've witnessed personally), there is 0 respect for everything.
I don't care if it's 1943 again or whatever, this is the objective truth, no matter how much you hate it and hate me for saying it. And tens of millions of eastern europeans will tell you the exact same thing.
Some people are implying that gypsies are great people and members of society, and that there is some conspiracy going on in southern and eastern Europe to make gypsies look like bad people. Do any of you have the least reasoning to back up this conspiracy theory?
Fact of the matter is those people don't want to be integrated into society, and live off of crime and government welfare. Of course, a few aren't going to follow this behavior and ideology, but the overwhelming majority does. Probably not as violent as Kurds (killings of Christians in northern Iraq even in the present day come to mind, nevermind the Armenian and Assyrians genocides), but at least a greater number of Kurds seem to be interested in being a part of Turkish, Iraqi, and Iranian society than gypsies are in their respective countries of residence afaik.
On September 27 2011 21:10 Probe1 wrote: Sorry, did you just compare the deportation of Roma peoples from France, Europe, Bulgaria et al to the Nazi extermination of groups they deemed undesirable? ...
Why do you deem this comparison so far fetched? The step from deportation to extermination isn't THAT huge. It both starts with the idea that these people don't have the right to live (here).
In ancient and medieval times, deportations were common in order to keep order in conquered lands and move about rowdy populations. Rarely did they end up in killing people. So, it isn't one step away. More like a few light years.
make them a country!, you know, like Israel because they come from nowhere (unless you count old India as a valid target for deportation)
Last I checked, those Jews came from Poland, Germany, USSR, etc. They came from somewhere, and that's pretty much where they came from originally. In most ancient Semitic pagan religions, most famously Judaism and Assyrian religion, their gods told them that their land belongs to them. Since Judaism spread to Europe through proselytizing, many native northern/eastern Europeans who adopted judaism of course will believe that their god mandates that ancient Canaan is their land, even considering they have no ancestry of people from that time and place at that. Even if they were Mideastern people, it would still be pretty ridiculous to claim that some land is theirs because their god said so. rofl. Also, don't compare Judaism to the gypsies. You're comparing a religious ideology to an ethnicity. It doesn't exactly work.
I remember watching a documentary about gypsies in Bulgaria once. One group openly said they're thieves and killers, the second tried to "show" they're OK. Those "OK" ones were rich. Also don't get me wrong, but at least ENTIRE Central Europe HATES gypsies and thinks about them as filthy thieves, that's what I was told by people around me and that's what I saw.
I am a Bulgarian, living in the Netherlands, and when people find out that I am actually Bulgarian, they are surprised my skin color is so white. In addition, Netherlands, France and Germany are pretty much denying equal rights as EU members to Bulgarians and Romanians:
In my honest opinion this is due to the fact that as far as Western Europe is conserned, Bulgarian and Romanian nationals are in fact the gypsies that live in France, Germany, the Netherlands or any other Western European country. The sole fact that we are perceived as gypsies is very offending to me, but the negative image that Bulgarian and Romanian gypsies create across whole Europe is undeniable.
As far as I see, soon in my country gypsy population is going to become dominant, it is already 9%, coupled with the fact that an average gypsy family has 9+ children and an average Bulgarian family has 1- and every 2-nd young Bulgarian goes abroad.
As for the violence and the riots in Bulgaria, I can clearly see the frustration of a nation where people with 2 masters degrees can't find a job, where corruption is commonplace and where money is the idol. Gypsies are not THE problem that caused the current situation, other than the negative image they create to the rest of Europe. HOWEVER, in my opinion, the riots and the violence that are now taking place, create even a worse image of Bulgaria and I don't think they can be excused. Comeon, we live in the 21-th century, doing openly racist and extremist deeds is hardly the way to go and will be hardly any help in making the rest of Europe accept us among its members with open arms. Shame on my country for that.
Well this thread is incredibly surprising...I sense the lock coming soon. But do you think we are acting similar to what the whites were saying in the South about the African Americans about a century ago?
Just a quick question: are the bad apples of the gypsies comparable to say, drug cartels in Mexico on a smaller scale? Just a question for the guys who actually have to deal with them as I live in America.
In Hungary, people have lost hope for integrating gypsies. We have been trying really hard but they don't want to change. The simple minded Hungarians hate them and want them deported. Educated people refuse to talk about them because they feel there is no solution. Politicians act like there is nothing wrong.
The western countries who don't have them can't understand this form of "racism". We dont hate them because of their race, we hate them because the extreme majority of them live the type of life described here many times already (leeching on social support while avoiding work, having childern for more money from the state). Luckily we dont have this clan/baron stuff here in Czech rep. so I cant say more about that. There is about 3% unemployment rate in Czech Republic and 70% of that are gypsies (can't prove it sadly, it was a research I saw long time ago and I can't remember where).
The other side of this coin is that the gypsy kids are probably raised with hatred towards white people (and being the minority they express their hatred more loudly, its not uncommon for a group of 10 gypsies to beat up a white kid here just because he was alone in the wrong place at the wrong time) aswell so I really dont see any easy solution.
So to answer your question AnachronisticAnarchy, we dont have bad apples, we have the occasional good apples which are sadly probably going to be having a harder time proving themselves to society because of what all the other gypsies do.
doing openly racist and extremist deeds is hardly the way to go and will be hardly any help in making the rest of Europe accept us among its members with open arms. Shame on my country for that.
You know very well that our homeland has done enough during these last 20 years.People barely can pay their taxes and live with what they have left from their 150 euro monthly salary ( average salary amount for Bulgaria). Our taxes go to senior citizens that have earned their pensions and to the gypsyes. "Surprisingly" most of the money go to the gypsyes, especially around election times because they've proven time and time again that they'll sell their vote to anyone that gives them 5-15 euros per person.Corrupt politicians ,low monthly salaries ,a health system that's sicker than most people ... I can go on if you'd like? The Roma for the most part are a problem we've learned to live with.We didn't like them but for the most part we didn't hate them either...They've raided villages of about 200 people across the country, stealing pensions of people who live on 35-50 euros per month, ransacking their houses and lets not forget the rapes, human trafficking and homicides.But still we managed to live with them "in the name of ethnic peace" ... And the anger and disapointment has been stacking during all that time. This was the last straw for many people that are protesting and rioting. Roma have gotten away with murder for far too long. Don't trus me? Google it. It's all on the web. Don't blame bulgarians for what's happening at this time. The roma have brought this upon themselves. Through arrogance (politicians buy their votes and they came to feel more important than they really are) and violence and as the saying goes " what goes around comes around". We've been made to feel like strangers in our own country that we've lived in for more than 1300 years. You can't expect an opressed nation to stay down forever.The government and the governments of the past have neglected us so that they can keep the roma happy and voting. People say they've had enough, and that's true. Most of you haven't lived here to see what's to have it bad. Some of you know what's like living with gypsyes but believe, untill you walk a mile in our shoes your oppinions on the matter wether what's going on is wrong or right, don't really matter.I'm sorry I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just telling it like it is...
On September 28 2011 04:56 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Just a quick question: are the bad apples of the gypsies comparable to say, drug cartels in Mexico on a smaller scale? Just a question for the guys who actually have to deal with them as I live in America.
no. drug cartels are well organized, effective, acting in order to reach a certain goal. gypsys are the exact opposite, as that is what they missing out the most. they unorganized following their own law only (romani kris), extremely uneffective with even such basic issues as sustaining themselves and only just floating in the chaos they create around themselves.
Ok i feel really sick of there humanists here who need to see democracy everywhere. I think it's because you just can't imagine who gypsies really are. Here is a picture of one demosled house by gypsies And here is classical gypsy behavior - even in TV
On September 28 2011 04:56 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Just a quick question: are the bad apples of the gypsies comparable to say, drug cartels in Mexico on a smaller scale? Just a question for the guys who actually have to deal with them as I live in America.
Yep. That's a fair compare. When you talk about the bad apples of the gypsies, you pretty much mean complete outlaws, who don't respect any sort of rules, laws and regulations. Being them jurisdictional or moral. Child abuse - check. Drug abuse - check. Robbery - check. Child labor - check. Pedophilia - check. Prostitution - check. Child prostitution - check. Tax avoidance - check. Smuggling - check. Bribery - check. Pretty much whatever crime you can think of, the bad apples amongst the gypsies are masters of it. The only crimes they're not very good at, are the ones over the internet. Thou there has been attempts. But then again - that applies to every ethnical or racial group, so it's kinda off-topic question. If we had to judge all hispanic people because of how the Mexican cartel acted, I bet there would be a few guys around here saying "hey, wtf TL ?!". But nah, since they're gypsies ... Srlsy ?
Then again, the whole idea about the protests here in Bulgaria is about fighting crime and corruption. Nothing to do with gypsies. It's about the incapable politicians and authorities. Nothing to do with ethnical or racial hatred. The media are trying to paint it whatever they like. But that's not news. The news is that a bunch of 75+ years old men (most of them well educated, as in university degrees) got arrested in the city of Varna and are charged with hooliganism. That's how our authorities are handing protests.
Dang, y'all happy discussing hatred of race or whatever in here, while you got no freaking clue what this whole deal has been up for. Hats off to the incredibly well educated TL community that turned this tread into "fuck the gypsies" one. Kudos lads !
On September 28 2011 04:53 Shiragaku wrote: Well this thread is incredibly surprising...I sense the lock coming soon. But do you think we are acting similar to what the whites were saying in the South about the African Americans about a century ago?
People who reach high post counts by being the ignorant guy with opinion on everything make me wanna cry.
---------------- THE RIOTS AREN'T ANTI - GYPSY ---------------
This thread, however, for some reason IS.
Jesus Christ, this thread is more ignorance-filled with the Alexander the Macedon thread. No, it's even worse than the mathematical priorities thread. How many times do we have to say that THE RIOTS AREN'T ANTI - GYPSY. And even if out of a hundred guys out there protesting there is one sick nazi jerk - so what, 1 idiot out of 100 isn't something that bad, right ? These people would come as nazi protesters, even if the riots are about taxes or sth like that, why focus on them ?
I sense the locking soon, too. Because commenting on the Bayern Munich : Manchester City game would be more on topic than what's happening here. Several pages before, some Bulgarians who know what they are talking about tried to create a discussion, but they get flooded by finger-pointing judgemental comments of 6k-posts people who make less sense than a 1-post guy on an Idra-Cruncher thread and have ZERO knowledge about the issue, but are programmed to use the word "RACISM" on as many places as they can ... And I'm sick of being called a racist by retards
On topic (surprisingly) : Now the breaking news says that after one of the palaces of the man who ordered the murder got ignited and almost burnt to the ground, documents from the secret services about this guy's crimes were found. This is no rumor, it has been confirmed. Apparently he has been informed by an insider on everything that might have threatened his status. The minister who's responsible about interior businesses (or however it's called in English) is apparently on vacation since yesterday. Just some food for thought about the awesome country we're living in xD
On September 28 2011 05:16 n00b3rt wrote: On topic (surprisingly) : Now the breaking news says that after one of the palaces of the man who ordered the murder got ignited and almost burnt to the ground, documents from the secret services about this guy's crimes were found. This is no rumor, it has been confirmed. Apparently he has been informed by an insider on everything that might have threatened his status. The minister who's responsible about interior businesses (or however it's called in English) is apparently on vacation since yesterday. Just some food for thought about the awesome country we're living in xD
By the way, did you hear the young party (БСП) activists found those documents in the ruins of the house that was set on fire? LOLOLOLOL
Fucking magic... 500 hundred pages of documentation, untouched.
I'm gonna make a note to this video: This "show" was aired on a Hungarian national commercial broadcasting network. We havetwo of those here, and a bunch of cable networks. This was aired from 5:30 pm to 6:30 from monday to friday. Yes, on a national network in the afternoons... If you think, you'd just flip to the other network, it had the exact same kind of show running.
IMO this topic should be closed, people just get emotional, angry and get banned, while others who doesn't have the roma problem have no idea what is going on in here.
"No, we won't let a mafia baron, all the more so a gypsy, boss us around! There is no justice for him! There is no court! He buys them with whole briefcases of money!"
The firm vow, voiced by a local from the southern village of Katunitsa near the town of Plovdiv, sums up best the recent bloody events there, which shook the whole country. Ten years of smoldering tensions between an affluent self-proclaimed Roma "tsar" and the residents, escalated at the end of the week into riots, cutting short the lives of two young Bulgarians. Their murder stirred sheer outrage in social networks and a wave of rallies across the country.
The unprecedented for Bulgaria events were widely described as ethnic clashes, but that is something of, though not entirely, a misnomer.
The violence erupted Friday after a 19-year old teenager was struck and killed by a mini-bus driver linked to the local Roma leader Kiril Rashkov, who piled up his huge wealth thanks to unscrupulous trade in fake alcohol and votes.
Rashkov and the boy, friend of the former mayor's son, had unsettled scores over land plots. Apparently the Roma baron decided to settle scores by killing the boy - an insolent and hideous act, which (accidentally) coincides with the launch of the presidential election campaign.
The issue here is not the bravado of a Roma. The issue here is the bravado of a man - who happens to be a Roma - that he can place himself above the law and terrorize the locals.
The question here is why the (obviously) corrupt police has left this mafia (not just Roma) clan do whatever they want?
"Tsar" Kiro comes from the typical derelict, garbage-strewn streets of Bulgarian Roma ghettos, which are home to most of the country's 375,000 Roma - although unofficial data estimates their true numbers come closer to 750,000, out of a population of 7.8 million. Here he lived together with skinny men rooting through piles of rubbish alongside pigs and fat women in flowing skirts cradling babies.
Today he has turned into a clan chief, one of those who struck it rich after the collapse of Communism, lives in luxury, drives gleaming cars and has replaced his ramshackle house, made of poorly "cemented" bricks of clay and straw, with a true royal palace.
It was this palace that the rioters torched, creating a powerful symbol of what happens when there is no rule of law – people just take the law into their own hands.
The widely touted muscle-flexing police exercises failed to yield satisfactory results during the riots as well – the men in uniforms just stood in silence and watched.
It turns out that the authorities in Bulgaria, generally not held in high esteem, have little power not only over the larger Roma ghettos, where clan chiefs are left to rule, but also at villages and towns where the Slav people are majority, but Roma clan chiefs are left to rule. So the culture of the local Roma ghetto easily takes the upper hand and the place becomes rife with extortion, human trafficking, baby selling and other menaces.
And this is exactly why the simple wrangling over land plots escalated into a so-called ethnic clash, giving politicians the chance to play the ethnic card.
The Roma baron's power has been so extensive that Katunitsa was on the brink of becoming the "first private village" in popular parlance. His control relied on a small squad of Roma hitmen, who terrified anyone who dared to disobey.
It was only natural that at one point nationalists, chanting racist abuse, joined the riots. The culprit is a Roma man (and a mafia boss at that) and the stereotype is hard to fight for many reasons. Pickpockets and thieves, dirty, lazy, uneducated people, who have tons of kids and sponge off social assistance. This is how the average Bulgarian perceives the Gypsy people, despite the inroads the politically correct term "Roma" has made in people's everyday speech.
The self-proclaimed Roma tsar and a virtual landlord of the village of Katunitsa has been delivered a number of sentences, totaling thirty years in prison. But that was before the communist regime collapsed in 1989.
After that he seems to have been the darling of all those in power – none of the complaints or investigations against him has ended up in court. Reports say Rashkov was ready to fork out a whopping BGN 100,000 in bribes to make officials "forget" his case.
Besides it is more than clear that those in power need Rashkov – he is the man they rely upon to secure the votes of the Roma minority, who tip the balance in any elections in Bulgaria.
The events are clear defeats for Prime Minister Boiko Borisov and his interior minister Tsvetan Tsvetanov who, since taking office in late July 2009, repeatedly pledged to send top-level criminals to jail.
Katunitsa has turned into a symbol of the consequences of an inefficient judicial system and rule of law deficit. The conflict is a national problem, which perfectly illustrates the corruption and hideous perversions of justice that reign in Bulgaria.
And this is exactly why the country was forced, just days before Katunitsa's cauldron boiled over, to say goodbye to its bright Schengen hopes.
On September 28 2011 05:16 n00b3rt wrote: On topic (surprisingly) : Now the breaking news says that after one of the palaces of the man who ordered the murder got ignited and almost burnt to the ground, documents from the secret services about this guy's crimes were found. This is no rumor, it has been confirmed. Apparently he has been informed by an insider on everything that might have threatened his status. The minister who's responsible about interior businesses (or however it's called in English) is apparently on vacation since yesterday. Just some food for thought about the awesome country we're living in xD
By the way, did you hear the young party (БСП) activists found those documents in the ruins of the house that was set on fire? LOLOLOLOL
Fucking magic... 500 hundred pages of documentation, untouched.
Yep, political games is all it is about. Too made up to make anyone believe in it, but it would still put pressure on the current government so it's good news :D I was actually hoping to see a non-Bulgarian comment on that, just to check if anyone would use his brain on this instead of embracing it as the truth, just as a little test. Oh well ...
Don't forget that the murder organizer - Kiril Rashkov, is an honorary member of the ruling party - GERB, thou they're trying everything they can to deny it. Another member of that party is the "german slayer" - Yordan Letchkov, as he was known in that magical summer of '94 (World Cup USA '94). Nowdays he's more known as The Yambol slayer, for his monstrosities in the region around the city of Yambol, where he's the mayor and acts like a complete outlaw.
Basically, riots have begun in Bulgaria following the murder of a teenage boy by a nephew of a gypsy clan leader. The murder and the accident were intentional. the same thing happened in Romania in 1993 following gypsy criminality in a small village, and the Romanians were forced y the European Court of justice to give compensations to the gypsies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hădăreni_riots Is Europe being hypocritical in the gypsy problem? Because France, Italy and other countries started deporting them, but when Romania and Bulgaria deported gypsies back in 1943 it was considered a "war crime". What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general?
I just wonder what people "who are not hypocritical" want to do with gypsies. Kill them all? That's a serious question. I don't say i have a solution, because modern societies are really not adapted to the culture and the way of life that this people has. But what is your solution? What would you like?
From what I know, Gypsies face an enormous amount of racism everywhere in Europe. That might be a good way to start to solve the "problem".
I can't say anything else than THE INTEGRATIONS of Gypsies is just bad,the government gave them apartments and they bring their horses in WTF? They live in their own world,i often go with the tram through one of the parts in Sofia where there are alot of gypsies,and there can be burning barrels,partying on the street or anything crazy..They are different people and are really difficult to be integrated..
Basically, riots have begun in Bulgaria following the murder of a teenage boy by a nephew of a gypsy clan leader. The murder and the accident were intentional. the same thing happened in Romania in 1993 following gypsy criminality in a small village, and the Romanians were forced y the European Court of justice to give compensations to the gypsies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hădăreni_riots Is Europe being hypocritical in the gypsy problem? Because France, Italy and other countries started deporting them, but when Romania and Bulgaria deported gypsies back in 1943 it was considered a "war crime". What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general?
I just wonder what people "who are not hypocritical" want to do with gypsies. Kill them all? That's a serious question. I don't say i have a solution, because modern societies are really not adapted to the culture and the way of life that this people has. But what is your solution? What would you like?
From what I know, Gypsies face an enormous amount of racism everywhere in Europe. That might be a good way to start to solve the "problem".
Why should the people, who created their society there since 681 adapt to the newcomers, who came to steal ? Shouldn't it be the other way around ? Your country found the perfect solution to this problem. They deported the gypsies to Romania. If Romania does this, it would be racist.
On September 28 2011 05:16 n00b3rt wrote: On topic (surprisingly) : Now the breaking news says that after one of the palaces of the man who ordered the murder got ignited and almost burnt to the ground, documents from the secret services about this guy's crimes were found. This is no rumor, it has been confirmed. Apparently he has been informed by an insider on everything that might have threatened his status. The minister who's responsible about interior businesses (or however it's called in English) is apparently on vacation since yesterday. Just some food for thought about the awesome country we're living in xD
By the way, did you hear the young party (БСП) activists found those documents in the ruins of the house that was set on fire? LOLOLOLOL
Fucking magic... 500 hundred pages of documentation, untouched.
Yep, political games is all it is about. Too made up to make anyone believe in it, but it would still put pressure on the current government so it's good news :D I was actually hoping to see a non-Bulgarian comment on that, just to check if anyone would use his brain on this instead of embracing it as the truth, just as a little test. Oh well ...
Yeah, I bet those were taken out of someone's archive. They probably wanted to save them in case they needed to persuade him to do something, but oh well..
Also, if it puts pressure on the government... then what? Nothing. It's the same government that circulates, just pretending that we're a democratic country pretty much.
On September 28 2011 05:35 speedphlux wrote: Don't forget that the murder organizer - Kiril Rashkov, is an honorary member of the ruling party - GERB, thou they're trying everything they can to deny it. Another member of that party is the "german slayer" - Yordan Letchkov, as he was known in that magical summer of '94 (World Cup USA '94). Nowdays he's more known as The Yambol slayer, for his monstrosities in the region around the city of Yambol, where he's the mayor and acts like a complete outlaw.
C'est la vie mes amies.
He's been a member of each of the ruling parties, be it official or not. Remember the 90s when he bombed the "Trud" newspaper and the police called off the investigation because he was a valuable informant?
On September 28 2011 05:46 Medrea wrote: Holy fuck some of the people in this thread have serious racism issues. Where the fuck did some of you people come from and how can I send you back?
Thank you for you tremendous contribution to the thread. P.S. If someone says "may all gypsies die" at least no-one would take him seriously. Guys like this are hurting the thread more, shouldn't this be bannable too ?
Gypsies are all over the world and 99% of time they live in ghettos or on camps. No country has managed to integrate them. They are a social failure. The sitting Bulgarian authorities after 1989 (when Bulgaria changed from communism to democracy) are responsible for letting the gypsy population grow (approximately 2% in 1989 and around 8-9% now) I don't think any western Europe country would allow that. A gypsy in Bulgaria has more rights than a Bulgarian. It will take me hours to describe their many crimes like selling babies, rapes, thefts and many other. Once my cousin saw a gypsy on the street and him her fruit to eat, two seconds later the mother came and ripped it from her child's hands to eat it.
I am not being racist here it's just how it is. Gypsies are a social failure.
On September 28 2011 05:46 Medrea wrote: Holy fuck some of the people in this thread have serious racism issues. Where the fuck did some of you people come from and how can I send you back?
maybe they have a reason for it? from all the stuff i ever heard about "it" there has never ever been anything positive so yeah maybe some people would like not to have the ones that steal, rape, sell your kids( which is a way to high %) close to their children
giving them a place were they just have to stay alive for themselves without feeding on the rest of the country seems the only solution to me. if you have a better one please pm me with it. people will get mad when they have to pay for a group of people from which a too big part is criminal.
from what i've heard i'm happy they're not close to my home
I am a civil engineer, and in 1 class (city planning) when I was in university, we had to do a study about gypsy people in my city (there is a part of the city where many gypsy people live), and how we should integrate/upgrade the living conditions of their place and lives.
I'm not going to be a racist or anything I'm just going to state facts, please read our findings (we visited the place where they live many times (its a ghetto part of my city) with the help of a priest, the only person they respect (else we would end up dead)
Well after a lot of studying the main points are:
Many times in the last 30 years, new flats where given to them: They went in for 6 months, destroyed everything, went back to their shacks.
The majority of their children stop appearing at school after the age of around 6-7: Their parents send them to deal drugs or guns (ffs!)
At around the age of 8-9 they marry many of their children or force them to prostitution
They sometimes sell their babies.
Most of their economic activity is based on crime, and their directly connected to cops, politicians or generally people of power who use them.
There are guns in almost every house.
Their crimes go unpunished, since they dont have IDs (at least most of them, they dont want to get one and you cant force them), they dont pay taxes, they dont use tickets they generally abuse the system.
Many of them have huge amounts of money in their houses or their belongings are worth of hundrends of thousands of euros.
We weren't able to find a proper solution, due to their lifestyle. It's not that people/countries/welfare system don't want to help them, its their own choice of living like that and they dont want to change.
Another very astonishing find was that many gypsy people who actually study or want to integrate to society face racism from their own families! They become outcasts from their own families!
Οur university project ended, when in one visit 4-5 armed boys (no more than 14 or 15 y/o) tried to rob us at 12:00 in the morning with two ak 47s and some knives... Good thing the priest was constantly with us.
On September 28 2011 05:46 Medrea wrote: Holy fuck some of the people in this thread have serious racism issues. Where the fuck did some of you people come from and how can I send you back?
On September 28 2011 05:46 Medrea wrote: Holy fuck some of the people in this thread have serious racism issues. Where the fuck did some of you people come from and how can I send you back?
On September 28 2011 06:26 Velr wrote: Sounds like countries with corruption issues allow gypsys to "prosper" which leads to a ton of other problems.
You could call them a symtpom of your goverments failure....
This is true based on what I have seen on my own country, organized governments usually dont allow them in, or make it difficult for them, or just plain deport them.
On September 27 2011 23:29 Probe1 wrote: krasytod when did protest turn into
After this : "Roma Stolipinovo left with orange bus "Ford Transit" to protect Rashkovi in which ran over 19-year Angel Petrov, while walking his dog. Witnesses say the car hit the youth and drag it a few feet, then the driver fled in an unknown direction."
and this: "Minutes later Katunitsa men began to gather in front of houses Rashkovi. Arrived on the spot and two policemen from the area in Sadovo. After about an hour the van appeared again and crashed into formations cordon of people. Ran over two people and pushed the police and then hid in the yard of the daughter of Tsar Kir"
On September 28 2011 06:26 Velr wrote: Sounds like countries with corruption issues allow gypsys to "prosper" which leads to a ton of other problems.
You could call them a symtpom of your goverments failure....
As I mentioned in a previous post, gypsies mean 1 million votes for the party that pays 3 meatballs, so the government is behind a lot of this. Still countries with corruption issues are also the ... let's call them weaker countries. Italy and France can't integrate gypsies, but they are strong enough to deport their gypsies without being called racist. Eastern European countries cannot afford that So it's a more complex problem
My most memorable encounter with a Roma gypsie was in Athens (when I lived there).
We just bought some fast food when this Roma woman carrying a baby just calmly grabbed half of my friends french fries as he was carrying his food on the tray and she then just walked off like nothing happened.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked gypsies are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask bulgarians, romanians, french or italian people they will all tell you the same.
I don't have any problem with gypsies to be honest. So I guess that's a bit of a wild statement.
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked gypsies are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask bulgarians, romanians, french or italian people they will all tell you the same.
I don't have any problem with gypsies to be honest. So I guess that's a bit of a wild statement.
no its not. im originally from focsani, vrancea, in romania, and you simply dont know what you are talking about! again, those people who didnt use to live with them, should just listen to people from hungary, bulgaria, especially from romania.
- you never had to beaten up 3-4 kids only avoiding not to be pushed into a corner with more scumms waiting for you
- you never ever have seen such big trash houses and the conditions that they are living in, but they dont want to change at all
- you never have been pickpocked in the bus corner, carefully watching everything around you!
- you never find a such cleverness from roma kids, or roma in general
- and you never have seen such brutality from men, who got nothing to loose
edit: and i forgot: in romania when you see a bmw x5 or an audi s8, its 50/50 that a rich gipsy would sit in. but would they share ? no the hell ! not a bit. romania is a country where money rules, harder and deeper than in other countries. just talk with people from greece or italy or bulgaria, romania, hungary... you will find the similar opinions!
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked gypsies are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask bulgarians, romanians, french or italian people they will all tell you the same.
I don't have any problem with gypsies to be honest. So I guess that's a bit of a wild statement.
I have spent 18 years in Plovdiv, the city where Stolipinovo is, one of the largest gypsy communities in Bulgaria. There is a bridge, under which there are underage gypsy prostitutes. I am pretty open to prostitution, hell I live in the Netherlands now, but some of the girls under that bridge are way under 18. Also, the fact that I have had 3 radios stolen out of my car when I have parked it there speaks pretty much for itself. I have seen gypsy crowds in buses surround an unsuspecting victim and relief him of his/her wallet and other possessions without him/her noticing. I have seen the houses they live in, they are mostly in gross condition, roofs leaking, cockroaches running around, holes in the walls, hay on the floor, junk cluttering everything. Their children don't go to school and are forced to beg/steal/rummage in garbage bins or just hang around. Illiteracy is commonplace, so is crime and violence. They don't pay for electricity/water and sometimes have a friggin HORSE/GOAT living in their house.
But! We are in Europe, nobody should be above the law, nobody should take the law in their hands, unless their name is Chuck, Silvester, Bruce or Arnold. In that sense the murder of the 19-th old should be punishable by law and the person responsible for that should be held accountable, regardless of race. Not held accountable by an angry mob with torches but held accountable in court and then put in jail. Our judicial system is very corrupt and flawed but handling this delicate case can be a test to it to prove that we do belong to Europe.
P.S. Once the trial is finished, the guy goes to jail. Media is happy, justice is served, and you know what happens to the gypsy in jail...That is how the issue should be resolved, and not with stupid angry youngsters running around with torches and getting themselves to jail.
And the worst part is a big number is of the Bulgarians are going gypsielike and even beyond gypsielike. Its popular to be a leech these days. But no worries - with the current state the corrupt Bulgarian government is, the ethnic party ДПС ( lurking at the moment ) will come to power in 20-30 years. Then our country gets renamed to Gypsieland ( like Disneyland but better ).
The gypsies are not at fault here, the Bulgarians are. And its too late to be fixed. Impossible. My dream is to get done in with Accidental Infringement and when i wake up to get my Violent Retribution I get to see the brighter future.
On the brighter side thanks to gypsies that stole my car and some of the furniture and electronics at my place, I had to buy new ones. Aint I a lucky guy.
On September 28 2011 06:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked gypsies are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask bulgarians, romanians, french or italian people they will all tell you the same.
I don't have any problem with gypsies to be honest. So I guess that's a bit of a wild statement.
no its not. im originally from focsani, vrancea, in romania, and you simply dont know what you are talking about! again, those people who didnt use to live with them, should just listen to people from hungary, bulgaria, especially from romania.
- you never had to beaten up 3-4 kids only avoiding not to be pushed into a corner with more scumms waiting for you
- you never ever have seen such big trash houses and the conditions that they are living in, but they dont want to change at all
- you never have been pickpocked in the bus corner, carefully watching everything around you!
- you never find a such cleverness from roma kids, or roma in general
- and you never have seen such brutality from men, who got nothing to loose
edit: and i forgot: in romania when you see a bmw x5 or an audi s8, its 50/50 that a rich gipsy would sit in. but would they share ? no the hell ! not a bit. romania is a country where money rules, harder and deeper than in other countries. just talk with people from greece or italy or bulgaria, romania, hungary... you will find the similar opinions!
I won't start to argue with anybody in that thread because I will end up saying what I think and I will get banned because it's not nice.
So I just make one remark:
One day you guys all learn to make the distinction between correlation and causality. That day, 99% of humanity's problem are solved. Good luck.
On September 28 2011 04:56 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: Just a quick question: are the bad apples of the gypsies comparable to say, drug cartels in Mexico on a smaller scale? Just a question for the guys who actually have to deal with them as I live in America.
That's a pretty stupid comparison.
Drug cartels are organized crime organizations. It's no different from other criminal organizations from Russia, china, Italy, or wherever.
The term gypsies is not an organization, but people.
Even if Finland and Netherlands are preventing Bulgaria And Romania from joining the Shengen area, so that gypsies wont travel freely, this cannot stop them. Nothing can stop them, they are spreading like zerglings with speed upgrade. Gypsies complaint about discrimination, no money and they dont do anything about it. I mean they can study in school for a change(its for FREE) and then get a job like a normal person and not have like 15 children, just so that they can receive child support from the government. And there is always discrimination if you are minority in every single country, I deal with it every day in the Netherlands. Gypsies claim the government is responsible to help them. But take a look at this example, gypsies dont pay electricity and they have it for free; if a bulgarian citizen delays his payment for the electricity for 1 day they stop it. And gypsies dont pay in public transport, its not like the cities are that big, they can walk if they cant pay. Of course, there is always exception and they are some honest and hardworking gypsies which study and live an honest life. At the end nobody wants to live with gypsies or any kind of stealing and dishonest people.
On September 28 2011 06:34 Psychobabas wrote: My most memorable encounter with a Roma gypsie was in Athens (when I lived there).
We just bought some fast food when this Roma woman carrying a baby just calmly grabbed half of my friends french fries as he was carrying his food on the tray and she then just walked off like nothing happened.
Try to integrate that. I double dare you!
they do it because they know that 99 % of westerns will not react violently as they are not accustomed with their nature. If someone does that in romania i would crush their face with my elbow, not because i'm a violent man, but because we cannot afford to tolerate such behaviors
Let me reiterate this. It can't be stressed enough.
THESE PROTESTS ARE NOT BUILT ON ETHNIC DIFFERENCES
There are several gypsy families in Katunitsa, but the only one that is problematic is the family of Kiril Rashkov.
Anything else is provocateurs planted in peaceful protests and political parties trying to ride the conflict. Just FYI, the next elections over here are in less than a month.
Jeasus fucking christ. I thought Americans were the most racist people on earth, I am grossly mistaken. Europeans acctually belive that Gypsies are an inerior breed of human and treat them like crap. I only read the first 3 pages and every single euro poster should be banned based on the warning.
The gypsie problem? What problem? The one where you treat a group of people like crap for 500 years and now you wanna get rid of them? The problem is you. Maybe if they had a chance to live normally noone would care.
Funny thing is that french governementt pays roms when they are expulsed back to Romania a lot of money, but they come back in weeks, turning it to a new business.
Only thing i know about them is that they fake handicap to beg on the streets and they steal everything they can, even railroads. There probably a good amount of them who live peacefully, but the minority acting criminally is a fucking plague.
The gypsie problem? What problem? The one where you treat a group of people like crap for 500 years and now you wanna get rid of them? The problem is you. Maybe if they had a chance to live normally noone would care.
Easy to say when you're not confronted with it. A group of people traveling from a country/city to another, without respecting laws isn't right.
On September 28 2011 08:26 MozoM wrote: Funny thing is that french governementt pays roms when they are expulsed back to Romania a lot of money, but they come back in weeks, turning it to a new business.
Only thing i know about them is that they fake handicap to beg on the streets and they steal everything they can, even railroads. There probably a good amount of them who live peacefully, but the minority acting criminally is a fucking plague.
No worse then the non gypsies that rob banks and scam people. I garuntee that gypsy criminality is only a fraction of your total crime. But because they are gypsys people give a fuck and are upset.
But because they are gypsys people give a fuck and are upset.
French criminals didn't purposely choose to be born in France to be criminals, but gypsys are coming to Paris especially to do that, so yeah, we got to be upset.
Jeasus fucking christ. I thought Americans were the most racist people on earth, I am grossly mistaken. Europeans acctually belive that Gypsies are an inerior breed of human and treat them like crap. I only read the first 3 pages and every single euro poster should be banned based on the warning.
The gypsie problem? What problem? The one where you treat a group of people like crap for 500 years and now you wanna get rid of them? The problem is you. Maybe if they had a chance to live normally noone would care
Jeasus fucking christ. These post aren't rasistic mr. "i wanna be friend with everyone". Most post are just constanting sad true about this etnicum. Try to travel here and you will understand. Goverments gave tons of money to integrate them, they had their chance. Next time get some info about the problem and then post your opinion
On September 28 2011 08:26 MozoM wrote: Funny thing is that french governementt pays roms when they are expulsed back to Romania a lot of money, but they come back in weeks, turning it to a new business.
Only thing i know about them is that they fake handicap to beg on the streets and they steal everything they can, even railroads. There probably a good amount of them who live peacefully, but the minority acting criminally is a fucking plague.
No worse then the non gypsies that rob banks and scam people. I garuntee that gypsy criminality is only a fraction of your total crime. But because they are gypsys people give a fuck and are upset.
Ok people orhasd26 from CANADA fucking GUARANTEES there is NO gypsy problem in EUROPE, because why not he probably read a wikipedia article on "roma" people and thought they're cool.
Fucking unreal north americans in this thread, just mind blowing ignorance.
So much ignorance in this thread, claiming it's racism without having any idea what are they talking about. The crime boss said the same thing. Should I let you figure out why? It's easy to play the racism card, pay the authorities to support your claims and apparently you can even get away with orchestrating a murder.
There are other gypsies living in the same village, none of them suffered any damage to their property. The property that was burned does not exist, according both to the crime lord and local authorities. It was built completely illegally on land he does not own. If the local authorities acknowledge its existence, they would have to tear it down, so they just pretend it doesn't exist. That's probably why nobody was charged or even detained for burning them down.
He still hasn't been arrested and was instead guarded by police in a 4 star hotel. When the locals found out and went to protest in front of the hotel, they moved him to another, currently unknown, location.
On September 28 2011 08:12 Orcasgt24 wrote: Jeasus fucking christ. I thought Americans were the most racist people on earth, I am grossly mistaken. Europeans acctually belive that Gypsies are an inerior breed of human and treat them like crap. I only read the first 3 pages and every single euro poster should be banned based on the warning.
The gypsie problem? What problem? The one where you treat a group of people like crap for 500 years and now you wanna get rid of them? The problem is you. Maybe if they had a chance to live normally noone would care.
yo bro, dont jump in topics where you have not a single clue about and criticize others about what they think. you are from canada ofcourse you have NO CLUE about what Roman gypsies are. maybe live at balkans for a year or two and you will know what it is. governments in balkans actually help those gypsies a lot but they still ruin everything.
they get free citizenship offer from states in balkans and they refuse, they get free houses so they dont live in trash huts but as soon as they take those they sell them to normal citizens and return back to where they live, all of them get government aid all the time and none of them accepting it. they have FREE education but none of them sending their kids because begging in the streets or robbing people is more profitable for them. they have cars in their gypsie hood but they use their horses when they want to go to city. they make their childrens group up in large numbers and make them raid the very city center to rob people and make chaos. they dont have any respect or anything. if governments in balkan wanted to kick them out, they unfortunately cant because it is the governments who profit from them with some other stuff even tho they dont pay a SINGLE tax or any bills, living free.
but yeah people like you in this thread is actually looking stupid with arguements you make. these are not your trailer park hobos, roman gypsies are very different and they deserve whatever people do to them.
plus to the dumb people who are calling europeans 'nazis' 'racist', it is not racism, it is nationalism.
Ive never seen so many different people from different countries unite together to hate one group of people. Im American so I have no idea who the gypsies are and what they do.
I have to admit that its pretty hard to not get caught up in the flow of this thread when you see people from pretty much every country in Europe bagging on gypsies at the same time. As much as i hate generalizing a group of people, I dont know anything about the subject and the dislike for gypsies seems to be near unanimous regardless of where you come from in Europe. Its hard to argue against that
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
I'm from America and I had no idea that gypsies were a 21st century problem - the only time I've heard about them outside of a history class is this thread. Some of the actions described by them make them seem so detestable - listening to the persons who are posting from eastern europe, I couldn't even imagine having persons like those described living in American society. From reading the thread through there seems to be no solution but to send them somewhere else which doesn't take care of the problem at all, merely move it.
What I would love to read is the perspective of a true Gypsy on the topic - if anyone has a link or can provide such a thing, I think that would benefit the discussion enormously as every post has been from the perspective of the Gypsy's victims and those who are leeched off of by them, and so (rightly) heavily biased against them.
If anyone can give a link to a Gypsy's perspective on the topic of their culture against that of Eastern Europe, please do so.
I'm glad there is a riot. Sure, I'd like it more if it was a peaceful demonstration. You can hear people get murdered here every week by the same type of gypsies.. No one really does anything because it usually happens in small villages.
Interesting thread. It is great to hear from Europeans who have personal experience with the gypsies. I live in the US and have never seen gypsies but it sounds like they are quite bad group of people to have in your country or city. It seems like something should be done about them. Like not giving them money or possibly forcing their children to go to school or be taken away from families that are unwilling to raise them to live in the 21rst century.
On September 28 2011 09:07 Bartimaues wrote: I'm from America and I had no idea that gypsies were a 21st century problem - the only time I've heard about them outside of a history class is this thread. Some of the actions described by them make them seem so detestable - listening to the persons who are posting from eastern europe, I couldn't even imagine having persons like those described living in American society. From reading the thread through there seems to be no solution but to send them somewhere else which doesn't take care of the problem at all, merely move it.
What I would love to read is the perspective of a true Gypsy on the topic - if anyone has a link or can provide such a thing, I think that would benefit the discussion enormously as every post has been from the perspective of the Gypsy's victims and those who are leeched off of by them, and so (rightly) heavily biased against them.
If anyone can give a link to a Gypsy's perspective on the topic of their culture against that of Eastern Europe, please do so.
you dont understand it, do you? for years most of the eastern european countries and the people trying to live peacefully with them but as hundreds of posters have said it repeatedly that they are just mass criminals that are living freely due to corrupt governments. yes almost all of the eastern european countries have corrupted governments. police dont do anything for years because they are getting paid not to do anything. but yeah to understand the situation more clearly i offer any american to visit some eastern european country and just live for 1 year, you will experience atleast minimum 5 gypsie problems face to face.
I'm from canada and everything that I've read from european people regarding gypsies over the past few years is all bad news so I'm inclined to believe its less racism and more realism. :\
On September 28 2011 09:23 askTeivospy wrote: I'm from canada and everything that I've read from european people regarding gypsies over the past few years is all bad news so I'm inclined to believe its less racism and more realism. :\
i could be wrong (i hope im wrong), but im inclined to agree as well...
for all the people bringing up Hitler, he believed that Germany was winning WW1 and that Jews at home backstabbed the German nation by surrendering. people here talking about gypsies are bringing up reports of crime. They are in no way comparable in terms of measurability
I just saw a documentary by the romanian film maker Livia Tipurita about gypsy child thieves and how they are shipped all over the europe to steal - it's quite insane. Watch it if you want to have a better grasp on the situation and to understand where all the hatred is coming from.
After reading the entire thread, I can understand where the east Europeans are coming from, and I agree that Orcasgt24 the Canadian probably didn't have a clue.
Here in New Zealand we have indigenous Polynesian people called the Maori. However unlike Gypsies, Maori people have integrated to the western society perfectly fine, and mostly trouble-free. Although we occasionally hear some stories about a few rotten apple, like exploiting western welfare benefits to no ends, but the case I heard from here seems to be similar what we experienced here, but with SUPER STEROIDS.
So I can sort of see the connection, especially if Gypsies has no will to integrate into the society at all.
On September 27 2011 21:52 3Form wrote: I just want to clarify, when you talk about how gypsies should "integrate into society", what exactly do you mean by that? You basically mean stop being gypsies, don't you?
WE mean stop living on welfare, stop robbing, start working and send their children to school. There are no problems or hate towards black minority or asian minority here (and I'm sure it's the case for most countries), yet almost everyone has problems with gypsy minority. How can you explain that?
I'm sorry but this is simply not true.
I lived in the Czech Republic for several years, with a Korean girlfriend. Czech men routinely stomped their feet in her way and yelled in her face suddenly as if that was an extremely funny joke. Czech women would push past her and call her a monkey in Czech assuming that she would not understand them. One day in a subway station the words "Czech Republic for Czech people" were scrawled on the floor. The country has intense problems with racism and you are not doing yourself any good by denying it.
The one Asian ethnicity that has a somewhat good reputation in the Czech Republic is the Vietnamese population, because they are known for being hard workers and many of them immigrated decades ago during a Communist initiative. They have strong roots in the country and are generally respected. Other minorities are not.
As for the gypsy discussion, I have to agree that there are real problems and some of the discrimination is justified. Not long ago there was a massive uptick in abuse of the Canadian immigration system. Many people were sneaking into the country and asking for asylum so they could receive free housing and have their expenses paid for by the government. These people were gypsies from the Czech Republic who were being taught specifically how to cheat the Canadian system. Who was teaching them, I have no idea. But for a time it was possible to see posters in certain areas with a Canadian flag on them, advertising for the scam. I'm not sure what happened to those people when their asylum claims were found to be bogus, but it bogged down the system quite a bit and cost the government a great deal of money. It eventually led to some immigration reform.
There is quite a lot of pickpocketing and other kinds of theft in Europe. I was never a victim because I was a bit proactive, but my girlfriend and people close to her were victims more than once. Their bags were slashed on the subway, or their money was stolen from their purses and wallets while they were paying for something, etc. It happens all the time. I can't say if these crimes are committed by gypsies more often than any other group. I don't have first hand knowledge of that. But I do know that if you walk through a Czech town, you will probably see a lot of gypsies hanging around, seemingly doing nothing. Not talking with their friends, or laughing, or carrying home groceries. Just standing or sitting there, watching people. I feel sorry for people who live those sorts of lives but it is also very unsettling to see with your own eyes.
So here's the problem with the whole "it's not racist, it's true" thing: Gypsy is a synonym for an ethnic group called the Romani people. If you don't see labeling a whole ethnic group as criminals as racist then I don't know what is.
I am not saying that there isn't a problem with the culture that some (or most, I really don't know) of them practice but using their ethnicity as a direct causation of them being criminal is wrong and alienates them as a whole.
You may not use the term Gypsy as a description of their ethnicity but that's how that term is defined. It may be petty semantics but it's important.
edit: Apparently Charlie Chaplin was part Romani. You wouldn't call him a scum of the earth criminal, would you?
edit2: as for derogatory nature of the term Gypsy, I only feel comfortable using it because it doesn't seem to have the very negative connotation in the English speaking parts of the world. I would never use the German equivalent "Zigeuner" to describe them as it does have somewhat of a negative connotation and is used by some as an insult (not only towards Roma). But it's nowhere near as bad as the N word as there even is a steak recipe called "Zigeuner Schnitzel". Also there is an widely known alternative term to referring to them in German: "Sinti und Roma"
Funny this thread comes up because I have had two Bulgarian roommates for the past 2 weeks. The gypsies they say cause so many problems are are very much hated with a good reason. All they do is steal things and will do anything for money. My two roommates say that everyone has to put a fence around the things they own and even but guards around it otherwise the gypsies will just come and steal it. They ruin everything over there and I think it is time to put a stop to it.
Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
On September 28 2011 10:11 Goldbullet wrote: Funny this thread comes up because I have had two Bulgarian roommates for the past 2 weeks. The gypsies they say cause so many problems are are very much hated with a good reason. All they do is steal things and will do anything for money. My two roommates say that everyone has to put a fence around the things they own and even but guards around it otherwise the gypsies will just come and steal it. They ruin everything over there and I think it is time to put a stop to it.
If we just didn't have the Gypsies... the world would be Utopia!
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
When I did a wiki search on the term, it only came up
the Romani people, an ethnic group popularly referred to as gypsies.
Unlike the N word page, where it actually talks about the negative side of term.
Edit: I also just did a dictionary search too, so I don't know where you get the idea from?
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
I guess they should rename themselves to "Romani Kings" then, eh?
On September 28 2011 10:02 Bigpet wrote: I am not saying that there isn't a problem with the culture that some (or most, I really don't know) of them practice but using their ethnicity as a direct causation of them being criminal is wrong and alienates them as a whole.
I haven't read every post in the thread, but I'd be surprised if a significant portion of the posts did something like this. The ethnicity has a culture attached to it and that culture is the issue. It is not because of what they are, as any reasonable person would admit, but because of how they live or choose to live. This is a problem closely associated with their ethnicity because their culture is closely associated with their ethnicity. There isn't really any crossover between that culture and the rest of the society.
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
I understand where you are coming from with this comment, but you have to understand that this is what they are commonly called outside of their own community. At least in a casual setting. It is a word that people will use first and not merely a slur people reach for in anger. I am well acquainted with the name Romani but if I use that word when speaking to an international community such as this, it will often need explaining.
On September 28 2011 09:23 askTeivospy wrote: I'm from canada and everything that I've read from european people regarding gypsies over the past few years is all bad news so I'm inclined to believe its less racism and more realism. :\
i could be wrong (i hope im wrong), but im inclined to agree as well...
for all the people bringing up Hitler, he believed that Germany was winning WW1 and that Jews at home backstabbed the German nation by surrendering. people here talking about gypsies are bringing up reports of crime. They are in no way comparable in terms of measurability
Just FYI, what you are talking about is the so called Dolchstosslegende (loosely translates to Stab-in-the-back-legend ), which was widely believed by right wing people in Germany after WW1. It didnt say the jews had backstabbed germany, but rather the german social democrats did, thats one of the reasons why the weimar republic, which was a democratic system that was in place inbetween both worldwars, failed. just look it up on wikipedia.
And gypsies are a problem here too. They fake injuries like them being deaf or smth just to beg for even more money. When i drive to work there are gypsies trying to wash my front shield and if you say you dont want it they just dont care, do it anyways and want money. Like really aggressively asking for money, banging on your car roof and stuff. There are also young boys, maybe 14/15 driving with the subway all day and selling hard drugs on the ride, everyone knows that, but you cant stop it because they got nothing to lose.
On September 27 2011 23:25 vanhio wrote: But when some of the gypsies refuse to work and are criminals, that isn't racism, that is being USELESS to society.
90% of them refuse to work and the only thing they do is stealing. People who wants only privilegs and no responsibilities are plague to society. Most of them are not paying their bills and still gets water and electricity. Free water and electricity sounds cool right ? Who do you think pays for all of this ? Who do you think pays child support to every 15 years old gipsy girl with 3 childrens ? People here are sick and tired of this SHIT !
Aaaaaaand here we go again. What the FUCK do you know about how many gypsies that won't work? Where do you get your info? Probably from what you believe and have experienced, and various influences such as media and/or friends.
You are making assumptions based on NOTHIN except personal experience and that is not enough to justify expelling a large number of humans, as some of you here sometimes forget the gypsies are.
Well, all-knowing guy who lives in a different world let me tell you this. You don`t live here. You don`t where these gypsies live. You don`t see how many of them are going to school. You don`t KNOW how many of them are in JAIL. You don`t know SHIT to be fair. And not writing these posts to CONVINCE somebody that bulgarian gypsies are bad etc.. We know what they are. WE LIVE WITH THEM, UNLIKE YOU. Feel free to come here and see with your own eyes.
Edit: I don`t think i need EXACT numbers cuz i live here for 25 years and MAYBE i have an idea how things are...
Actually its very possible that you've lived in a country for 25 years and have no clue about what's going on in your society. As demonstrated by your made up statistics you base your information on rumors that you and your friends percieve to be true only becuase they can't be proven wrong without looking into the matter seriously.
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe you percieve 90% of the romani population to be discraceful criminals because the are the visible minority? The romani are a people that live mostly outside of society. Obviously you wouldn't come in contact with peaceful families as much as the bad ones becasue they don't cross your path.You only hear about the bad ones in the paper or from rumors other people tell (that are sometimes pure bullshit). If they were as bad as you say. You would have witnessed hundreds of robberies in your lifetime done by romani. I doubt you even witnessed one.
Also you should be old enough to understand that your own hatred is fueling the criminal people to keep doign what they're doing and feeding their recruitment of other romani.
Sure its fine to critisize a culture for what you don't like about it. But you don't start painting the people as if they were animals of lesser importance than the rest of humanity. Please realise that you have prejudice in your society that clouds your mind.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Visited Berlin for 2 days, had to deal with Gypses bothering me both days several times.... Just saying.
I believe this to be a very real issue. Even if the problems are only so bad as ours (which i highly doubt), ethnicity in general may not mix as well in Europe as they do in America. We are supposed to be a country comprised of several foreign peoples. Europe is not the same.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Uh no..no they don't do that in America and I work in really bad shitholes.
On September 28 2011 10:02 Bigpet wrote: I am not saying that there isn't a problem with the culture that some (or most, I really don't know) of them practice but using their ethnicity as a direct causation of them being criminal is wrong and alienates them as a whole.
I haven't read every post in the thread, but I'd be surprised if a significant portion of the posts did something like this. The ethnicity has a culture attached to it and that culture is the issue. It is not because of what they are, as any reasonable person would admit, but because of how they live or choose to live. This is a problem closely associated with their ethnicity because their culture is closely associated with their ethnicity. There isn't really any crossover between that culture and the rest of the society.
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
I understand where you are coming from with this comment, but you have to understand that this is what they are commonly called outside of their own community. At least in a casual setting. It is a word that people will use first and not merely a slur people reach for in anger. I am well acquainted with the name Romani but if I use that word when speaking to an international community such as this, it will often need explaining.
Black people used to be called niggers. Not just as a slur but used by people in a casual setting. Bear in mind that the uncomfortable feeling you got when you read my words is no different from what I get when I read the word gypsy.
I also APOLOGISE for using the N word to anyone that may be offended by it. I don't want to promote use of that word and only used it to show how extreme it is and how extreme the it's counterpart will probably seem in 50 years.
I also want to note that I'm not romani myself but still feel disguisted by the use of derogatory words as if they were acceptable for public use.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Uh no..no they don't do that in America and I work in really bad shitholes.
Thats just the same shit different day then. Why is it a shit hole? United Way is all over the damn place with these projects.
On September 28 2011 10:02 Bigpet wrote: So here's the problem with the whole "it's not racist, it's true" thing: Gypsy is a synonym for an ethnic group called the Romani people. If you don't see labeling a whole ethnic group as criminals as racist then I don't know what is.
I am not saying that there isn't a problem with the culture that some (or most, I really don't know) of them practice but using their ethnicity as a direct causation of them being criminal is wrong and alienates them as a whole.
You may not use the term Gypsy as a description of their ethnicity but that's how that term is defined. It may be petty semantics but it's important.
Lots of comments in this thread seem borderline racist with some being obviously racist. However, having lived in Bulgaria for a long time and still visiting multiple times every year, I simply struggle to remember anything even remotely positive I have seen or heard about gypsies. People claiming that all gypsies are scum are probably prejudiced, but all the comments stating incidents involving gypsies (stealing, robbing, refusing to let their kids being educated, selling their kids, marrying their kids at ages lower than 10, destroying homes given to them by the government and a plethora of other things) are unfortunately not fictive. It also seems like those problems occur among a significant majority of the gypsies... Their ethnicity is not a cause for being criminal, but it seems like it gives one an exorbitantly high chance of becoming a criminal
That being said, I want to remind you again that the protests in Bulgaria are not targeting gypsies in general. They aim at the corrupt authorities and a single mafia boss, who happens to be gypsy. That scumbag has been doing whatever he feels like doing, terrorizing many people over a long period of time until a few days ago when he decided to organize the killing of a boy close to a person he hated.
To understant why people are outraged, I translated the comment of the killed boy's father, who witnessed the murder: "That guy, when he saw us, accelerated from all the way to the other end of the street, drove over the grass overthere and stopped right in front of us. My son was standing in front of the bus and shouted: "Stop, where are you going?". And that guy started the bus and hit my son, and then slowly, slowly drove over him. I saw that he squashed him and started screaming, I was hitting the driver's cabin: " STOP, STOP! STOP!! You are crushing my kid!!!" That guy got my child under the bus and dragged him for 20 metres. I ran and held him in my arms: "Get up my son. Get up, son!" And he died...
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Uh no..no they don't do that in America and I work in really bad shitholes.
I assume he's talking about places like Queensbridge.
1) Gypsies are an ethnic group. 2) Not many cares about that ethnic group, positively or negatively, if you live your life like a normal person. 3) Most nations in Europe have trouble with Gypsies because they don't really, as a whole, respect the law or have common courtesy - at all. They can also be found in pretty much every city as beggars. Not that a majority of them are beggars - simply that it seems like a large part (significant minority) of the beggars are foreign gypsies. 4) They, as a whole, are extremely focused on family & extended family, to the point that they don't seem care about anyone else. Therefore it's rare that they form close personal relationships with whoever live where they are, and so they don't integrate much into normal society. They don't, as a rule, put down roots anywhere. That's sort of the thing. 5) Child marriage, child thieves, fake children to get government funded child support, etc, are all true stories, that regularly pops up in the news, and reinforce the popular image of gypsies as negative, overall. 6) Children are normally taken out of school to be put to 'work' very young. 7) Government have a hard time knowing how to deal with them, because ... they don't want to take away all the children to be raised by the government or put up for adoption, even though if 'normal' people treated their children that way, they would lose them. They can't be easily deported, because no nation really wants to admit that they are 'theirs' - nor do gypsies normally claim to belong to any nation. You can't just put the entire population in jail either ... this have led to historically bad shit, like forced sterilization, to combat 'the problem' ...
Now here's the kicker though ...
Because they are so universally disliked, they also suffer from a fair bit of hate crime, they are treated like shit, they have historically been persecuted ... about as much as Jews, actually, but without the benefit of being associated with a major religious figure.
But they aren't doing much to be treated like everyone else either ...
It's like ... well ... 'racism' ... you can make a case for it. A really good one actually. But it's mainly about a culture that brings just about nothing positive to society, and just drains it of resources, and the dislike of that culture grows as the general economic outlook gets worse.
You can see the same, general negative outlook, on poor people, in the US, from republican media. They are just careful not to mention race - even though poor are, dominantly, black. Because 'race' is dangerous in the US.
But really, the reality is that Gypsies are treated badly, because they are poor, a drain on society's resources, and the reason for why they are that, is that they have been historically treated like shit, been poor, persecuted, etc ...
Poverty is actually something you inherit to a large degree, much like everything else ...
In a lot of ways, the 'gypsy problem' is the 'inherited poverty' problem of the US ... just, worse, because it's been going on longer, and also - the nations that have to deal with it, are poorer overall, so they have less to spend on trying to fix the problem.
Also, nationalism have been growing stronger in eastern Europe (and parts of western Europe), which leads to a very small minority of people being racists against everyone that aren't 'straight up 10th generation native' - and if you are then Asian black gypsy whatever, that small minority I am sure will be visible to you.
... which leads to the whole, every time something shitty happens, just cry racism, problem ... it might not be racism this time, but it certainly was in some other scenario at some point some other time ...
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Uh no..no they don't do that in America and I work in really bad shitholes.
I assume he's talking about places like Queensbridge.
A fine example, perhaps the finest in fact. But this takes place all over the country.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
Well federal housing just means housing payed by the government, we have that here too. Its just on another level, gypsies are doing it favela style they dont even have housing just some cardboards put together in the middle inbetween two train stations.
Have you ever seen a gypsy in your life?Edit:Calling out a group of people that leeches off our welfare state so audaciously is not racism.
On September 28 2011 10:46 ggrrg wrote: Their ethnicity is not a cause for being criminal, but it seems like it gives one an exorbitantly high chance of becoming a criminal
Their ethnicity gives them a high chance of being born into a family that has a culture that practices and/or tolerates criminal/unethical behavior. Might be a pedantic distinction but an important one in my eyes.
Also I'd like to reiterate what has already been stated. Romani mostly live in isolation and the only ones people usually have encounters with are those that expressly go out to commit crime. Again, I don't have the numbers, so I can't speak to what percentage we are talking about here. edit: but it seems to be a significant high number considering all the instances throughout history of different regents trying to assimilate them and/or get rid of them. Even the US denied them citizenship based on their ethnicity at one point
Even the US denied them citizenship based on their ethnicity at one point
We did the same to several other ethnic groups. Its very misleading to use this as evidence of anything having to do with the natural tendencies of gypsies..
I didn't know that, also it was not intended as a comment on "natural tendencies" but rather on the spread of a certain culture among them.
Because they are so universally disliked, they also suffer from a fair bit of hate crime, they are treated like shit, they have historically been persecuted ... about as much as Jews, actually, but without the benefit of being associated with a major religious figure.
This also poses an interesting social problem; you've acknowledged that there is definite truth to the cheating and stealing stories. Normally the way society deals with this is through a trial(when they break the law as in the described cases), but how could you reasonably expect a gypsy to receive a fair trial?
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
It is my opinion that if you don't know whats going on you should not talk about certain things.
There is no "Romani" People. The term "Roma-" is tied up to "the Roman Empire" that saw its fall more than 1700 years ago while Gipsies who are of Indian decent only moved in Eastern Europe in the last 2-300 years.
The name of my country, "Romania" was chosen by Romanians because our language is a latin language in a sea of slavonic languages proving that we are descendants of the mixture of Dacians and Romans after the Roman Empire conquered Dacia.
The "RRoma" fiasco started in the 90's when western countries (France especially) forced our governments hand at integrating gipsies into society being somewhat ignorant if that was possible or not.
In order to forcefully integrate these people into society a ploy was created. At first they announced to the world that they want to be called "RRoma" with double "R"; this was announced only by a few organisations and is still not accepted by the vast gipsy majority. I'm fairily certain you have never met or spoke to a gipsy to at least understand that they call themselves "gipsy" and they want to be called gipsy even though the term is different in different languages.
Then, suddenly after a few years the government and the national media, and the european media, dropped the first "R" silently without people noticing so now they were being called "Roma", after a few more years they have now moved to "Romani" which is the last step in their whole plan.
Why ? Simply because we romanians, in romanian, call ourselves Români while the governments call the gipsies "Romani". Do you see the difference ? Its a minor change that doesn't even exist in the english language, only in Romanian.
So in all international affairs gipsies would now become indistinguishable from Romanians if we condeede and call them "Romani"; a term which the gipsy minority itself rejects.
To give you a comparison; if gipsies moved to your country and suddently your government under pressure from western governments and the EU decided to call them ssvens, after 3 years call them svens and after 5 more years just call them svenskar that would be a 100% representation of what has happened here.
Then, suddenly you start every day with newspaper news about svenskar crimes in Paris, London, Amsterdam, Helsinki and so on and slowly begin to see how all western people now say that they want the svenskar deported from their country and that the svenskar immigrants commit too many crimes and are very dirty.
Then you start to ask yourself WHY are they deporting the svenskar back to sweden ?!!?! Even if the svenskar are now EU citizens and they HAVE THE RIGHT to move to any EU country they wish. If integrating svenskar into society was SO EASY to begin with, and if it CAN be done, WHY are the French, British, Dutch people and so on not integrating the svenskar into their society?
Why has FRANCE decided that it will pay billions to integrate african, muslim asian and so on immigrants into its society but not svenskar ? Why does modern France DEPORT the svenskar forcefully? How can a EUROPEAN CITIZEN be deported in 2011 by the country that prides itself on having invented democracy and freedom ?
As someone who used to live in Eastern Europe and now lives in the US I'd like to make a statement - there is no major difference between hating on gypsies or hating on lower class blacks/mexicans in the US. Rhetoric is absolutely the same, they 'rob/steal/kill/don't like to work so they should be sent back to Africa/Mexico'. This is racism in its pure form and every hypocrite that finds gypsy bashing justified is inherently the same inbred trash as the one that claims blacks are inferior people. Lets draw a line here for once - you are either a racist piece of shit or not.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
Well federal housing just means housing payed by the government, we have that here too. Its just on another level, gypsies are doing it favela style they dont even have housing just some cardboards put together in the middle inbetween two train stations.
Have you ever seen a gypsy in your life? Im very very far from being racist, I came to this country as an immigrant myself, my girlfriend came here as a fugitive. I had people telling me and my gf that their jacket is worth more than her whole country. Thats racism right there. Calling out a group of people that leeches off our welfare state so audaciously is not.
Federal housing paid by the government is primarily directed at minorities. Not just anyone can get into them. But we do have a LOT of them so even white people can get into them pretty often as long as they are indeed quite poor and in need of said housing.
That being said, I don't know how to answer your question of have I seen what you are calling a "gypsy." The very word is sort of not accepted by the Romani that I have come across in my own country (good encounters overall). So I assume you are talking about the Romani that reside in the areas of eastern europe in question. In which case no. But does it really matter? I've come across the poor.
Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
Well federal housing just means housing payed by the government, we have that here too. Its just on another level, gypsies are doing it favela style they dont even have housing just some cardboards put together in the middle inbetween two train stations.
Have you ever seen a gypsy in your life? Im very very far from being racist, I came to this country as an immigrant myself, my girlfriend came here as a fugitive. I had people telling me and my gf that their jacket is worth more than her whole country. Thats racism right there. Calling out a group of people that leeches off our welfare state so audaciously is not.
Federal housing paid by the government is primarily directed at minorities. Not just anyone can get into them. But we do have a LOT of them so even white people can get into them pretty often as long as they are indeed quite poor and in need of said housing.
That being said, I don't know how to answer your question of have I seen what you are calling a "gypsy." The very word is sort of not accepted by the Romani that I have come across in my own country (good encounters overall). So I assume you are talking about the Romani that reside in the areas of eastern europe in question. In which case no. But does it really matter? I've come across the poor.
Even the US denied them citizenship based on their ethnicity at one point
We did the same to several other ethnic groups. Its very misleading to use this as evidence of anything having to do with the natural tendencies of gypsies..
We only let a handful of Romanians into our country at one point.. for one example.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
Well federal housing just means housing payed by the government, we have that here too. Its just on another level, gypsies are doing it favela style they dont even have housing just some cardboards put together in the middle inbetween two train stations.
Have you ever seen a gypsy in your life? Im very very far from being racist, I came to this country as an immigrant myself, my girlfriend came here as a fugitive. I had people telling me and my gf that their jacket is worth more than her whole country. Thats racism right there. Calling out a group of people that leeches off our welfare state so audaciously is not.
Federal housing paid by the government is primarily directed at minorities. Not just anyone can get into them. But we do have a LOT of them so even white people can get into them pretty often as long as they are indeed quite poor and in need of said housing.
That being said, I don't know how to answer your question of have I seen what you are calling a "gypsy." The very word is sort of not accepted by the Romani that I have come across in my own country (good encounters overall). So I assume you are talking about the Romani that reside in the areas of eastern europe in question. In which case no. But does it really matter? I've come across the poor.
Read my post on page 17 plz.
The origin and history of the people is extremely convoluted and prone to misinterpretation especially as the languages used by such people are very very strange. In short, Ill call them whatever they ask me to, or more expressly, Ill refrain from calling them by something they do not like.
On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote: Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Okay now I tell You a story.
It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
Well federal housing just means housing payed by the government, we have that here too. Its just on another level, gypsies are doing it favela style they dont even have housing just some cardboards put together in the middle inbetween two train stations.
Have you ever seen a gypsy in your life? Im very very far from being racist, I came to this country as an immigrant myself, my girlfriend came here as a fugitive. I had people telling me and my gf that their jacket is worth more than her whole country. Thats racism right there. Calling out a group of people that leeches off our welfare state so audaciously is not.
Federal housing paid by the government is primarily directed at minorities. Not just anyone can get into them. But we do have a LOT of them so even white people can get into them pretty often as long as they are indeed quite poor and in need of said housing.
That being said, I don't know how to answer your question of have I seen what you are calling a "gypsy." The very word is sort of not accepted by the Romani that I have come across in my own country (good encounters overall). So I assume you are talking about the Romani that reside in the areas of eastern europe in question. In which case no. But does it really matter? I've come across the poor.
Read my post on page 17 plz.
The origin and history of the people is extremely convoluted and prone to misinterpretation especially as the languages used by such people are very very strange. In short, Ill call them whatever they ask me to, or more expressly, Ill refrain from calling them by something they do not like.
The origin and history is convoluted and open to interpretation only to you since you know nothing about it. Moreover you have not met any gipsies and have no idea what the majority think of the term "Roma". If you understood these people at all you would know that they are smart enough to exploit non-discrimination law and they call it discrimination whenever someone forces them to do anything they do not want. Such as sending children to school, paying taxes, being evicted from areas where they have no property titles etc.
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system.
Nobody does that. Nobody claims that all problems or even that the majority of their problems are caused by gypsies. People simply state that they associate gypsies with crime and sometimes state the reasons why they do so.
As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place.
Wrong. They do exist even though the government (at least in Bulgaria) has tried to help gypsies integrate better. The government might not have done in perfectly, but it tried, it gave many of them free housing, financial help (even though small), and offers free education. Read the thread to see what happened to the free housing provided... The reason why people blame the government is because multiple governments not only failed to stop a notorious gypsy mobster but they also supported him.
Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
Bulgarian governments have been corrupt as hell since the first one was created, but this has nothing to do with the criminal mindset so many gypsies seem to have.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
If you had read the thread, you would know that the protests are aimed at the government and not at the gypsy community.
I live in Michigan now, but I have been hearing about this as I still get bulgarian TV over the internet. Can't say I am suprised something like this is happening, there has been issues ever since I can remember. I just hope something happens soon before more people are hurt.
On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote: Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Okay now I tell You a story.
It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote: Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Okay now I tell You a story.
It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
Ok well all of that I completely agree with pretty much 100 percent. I think this topic took a REAL bad turn when Cloud took the dump of his life all over it.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
Well federal housing just means housing payed by the government, we have that here too. Its just on another level, gypsies are doing it favela style they dont even have housing just some cardboards put together in the middle inbetween two train stations.
Have you ever seen a gypsy in your life? Im very very far from being racist, I came to this country as an immigrant myself, my girlfriend came here as a fugitive. I had people telling me and my gf that their jacket is worth more than her whole country. Thats racism right there. Calling out a group of people that leeches off our welfare state so audaciously is not.
Federal housing paid by the government is primarily directed at minorities. Not just anyone can get into them. But we do have a LOT of them so even white people can get into them pretty often as long as they are indeed quite poor and in need of said housing.
That being said, I don't know how to answer your question of have I seen what you are calling a "gypsy." The very word is sort of not accepted by the Romani that I have come across in my own country (good encounters overall). So I assume you are talking about the Romani that reside in the areas of eastern europe in question. In which case no. But does it really matter? I've come across the poor.
Where Im from its sort of not accepted to bullshit people into donating money for deaf people or forcing your kids to stay out of school and sell drugs instead. I think we dont come to an agreement here, lets just face it, I have no idea how things go in the US and you dont know nothing about europe so lets just agree to disagree. You dont get what im saying and frankly I dont get where you are going besides you love everyone and its wrong to call them gypsies, even though you never met one of the sort we talk about in this thread. There is even a dude from the US one page back who said he travelled to berlin for 2 (!) days and had to deal with harassment.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
Well federal housing just means housing payed by the government, we have that here too. Its just on another level, gypsies are doing it favela style they dont even have housing just some cardboards put together in the middle inbetween two train stations.
Have you ever seen a gypsy in your life? Im very very far from being racist, I came to this country as an immigrant myself, my girlfriend came here as a fugitive. I had people telling me and my gf that their jacket is worth more than her whole country. Thats racism right there. Calling out a group of people that leeches off our welfare state so audaciously is not.
Federal housing paid by the government is primarily directed at minorities. Not just anyone can get into them. But we do have a LOT of them so even white people can get into them pretty often as long as they are indeed quite poor and in need of said housing.
That being said, I don't know how to answer your question of have I seen what you are calling a "gypsy." The very word is sort of not accepted by the Romani that I have come across in my own country (good encounters overall). So I assume you are talking about the Romani that reside in the areas of eastern europe in question. In which case no. But does it really matter? I've come across the poor.
Where Im from its sort of not accepted to bullshit people into donating money for deaf people or forcing your kids to stay out of school and sell drugs instead. I think we dont come to an agreement here, lets just face it, I have no idea how things go in the US and you dont know nothing about europe so lets just agree to disagree. You dont get what im saying and frankly I dont get where you are going besides you love everyone and its wrong to call them gypsies, even though you never met one of the sort we talk about in this thread. There is even a dude from the US one page back who said he travelled to berlin for 2 (!) days and had to deal with harassment.
Forcing kids to stay out of school and sell drugs instead. Oh yeah we have that in the US lol. I guess we do a really good job of covering all that up. Quite frankly we have the same rhetoric with immigrants from Mexico and so on. I guess we're no better but if I said something like+ Show Spoiler +
all spics need to be killed in riots
like a certain someone on the front page. Im sure that would be the fastest ticket to a perm ban imaginable.
And yeah as someone said earlier. Correlation, Causation, you get the idea.
On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote: Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Okay now I tell You a story.
It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
' Actually you're one one that is disregarding peoples arguments. He's citing his own experience in a similar matters so that blockheads like you who see what they want to see can get some distance and actually think about it. People aren't telling you or your countrymen that you are wrong in critisizing the romani culture. People aren't telling you that the situation isn't fucked up. They are telling you that you are acting in an unreasonable way and you are judging other people based on where they come from.
As you did to me you just assume that because I don't live in romania I have no insight in the matter and then you cite your puny 25 whatever years on this earth of "life experience with gipsies" as if your own personal experiences have any large scale relevance. You need to calm down and stop picking fights with everyone and take a look at the situation.
Focus your time on trying to acomplish something within your own country instead of claiming everyone not from romania that has an opinion is retarded and has no idea of what they're talking about.
I wrote a pretty mild response to your PM but after reading your subsequent posts its pretty clear that I needed to tell you in full what everyone is thinking.
On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote: Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Okay now I tell You a story.
It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
Ok well all of that I completely agree with pretty much 100 percent. I think this topic took a REAL bad turn when Cloud took the dump of his life all over it.
I forgot to add that French / Dutch / British / Italian and Spanish gorvenments have also been helpless in solving the problem. In fact the French government DEPORTED gipsies back to Romania / Bulgaria by airplane instead of "integrating them into society".
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote: Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Okay now I tell You a story.
It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
' Actually you're one one that is disregarding peoples arguments. He's citing his own experience in a similar matters so that blockheads like you who see what they want to see can get some distance and actually think about it. People aren't telling you or your countrymen that you are wrong in critisizing the romani culture. People aren't telling you that the situation isn't fucked up. They are telling you that you are acting in an unreasonable way and you are judging other people based on where they come from.
As you did to me you just assume that because I don't live in romania I have no insight in the matter and then you cite your puny 25 whatever years on this earth of "life experience with gipsies" as if your own personal experiences have any large scale relevance. You need to calm down and stop picking fights with everyone and take a look at the situation.
Focus your time on trying to acomplish something within your own country instead of claiming everyone not from romania that has an opinion is retarded and has no idea of what they're talking about.
I wrote a pretty mild response to your PM but after reading your subsequent posts its pretty clear that I needed to tell you in full what everyone is thinking.
Right, well when your governments (western + nordic) stop deporting EU citizens and also stop QQing about the problem and they integrate these lovely immigrants into society THEN, you can take the moral high-ground with us eastern europeans. Ok ? Until them you're all nothing but hypocrites who do one thing and say another.
Funny that western europe saw its first forceful deportations after 1945 within EU borders and with EU citizens no less and you still take the moral highground. Who has what to fix in their country ?
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
Well federal housing just means housing payed by the government, we have that here too. Its just on another level, gypsies are doing it favela style they dont even have housing just some cardboards put together in the middle inbetween two train stations.
Have you ever seen a gypsy in your life? Im very very far from being racist, I came to this country as an immigrant myself, my girlfriend came here as a fugitive. I had people telling me and my gf that their jacket is worth more than her whole country. Thats racism right there. Calling out a group of people that leeches off our welfare state so audaciously is not.
Federal housing paid by the government is primarily directed at minorities. Not just anyone can get into them. But we do have a LOT of them so even white people can get into them pretty often as long as they are indeed quite poor and in need of said housing.
That being said, I don't know how to answer your question of have I seen what you are calling a "gypsy." The very word is sort of not accepted by the Romani that I have come across in my own country (good encounters overall). So I assume you are talking about the Romani that reside in the areas of eastern europe in question. In which case no. But does it really matter? I've come across the poor.
Where Im from its sort of not accepted to bullshit people into donating money for deaf people or forcing your kids to stay out of school and sell drugs instead. I think we dont come to an agreement here, lets just face it, I have no idea how things go in the US and you dont know nothing about europe so lets just agree to disagree. You dont get what im saying and frankly I dont get where you are going besides you love everyone and its wrong to call them gypsies, even though you never met one of the sort we talk about in this thread. There is even a dude from the US one page back who said he travelled to berlin for 2 (!) days and had to deal with harassment.
Forcing kids to stay out of school and sell drugs instead. Oh yeah we have that in the US lol. I guess we do a really good job of covering all that up. Quite frankly we have the same rhetoric with immigrants from Mexico and so on. I guess we're no better but if I said something like+ Show Spoiler +
all spics need to be killed in riots
like a certain someone on the front page. Im sure that would be the fastest ticket to a perm ban imaginable.
Im really not responsible for what ClouD said on the first page, neither do I agree with it. I never said anything of this sort. As i said in my other post I am against racism very much and I think those comments made are childish and wrong. BUT its not rhetoric I use to discriminate them in any form, its the truth, I see it every goddamn day when I use the subway here in Berlin and literally everybody knows that the teenagers sell hard drugs on the ride, pls read my first post which was unrelated to yours. How is lying about it, only because its politically correct, doing anyone anything good?
I dont think you can compare it to the mexicans in america, I mean they are huge in number doing jobs ranging from janitor to ceo. For every mexican involved in the drugwar there are a lot more doing normal jobs. In the romani community ,like others have said in this thread it is a great percentage of people involved in this activity.
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
See you're completely missinformed and have no idea about what has happened in Europe since you left. You see, Romania and Bulgaria are now EU member states which makes all of us EU citizens and gives us the right to legally move to any part of the EU we want without any immigration papers or even a god damn passport. Kind of like moving from Arizona to Texas; you can't really do that illegaly now can you ?
Interestingly enough I talked about gypsies with my mother earlier today. She is a teacher and have some gypsie children in school from time to time. They dont stay in the same school for more than a year tops and sometimes they just dissapear. A few days ago a boy didnt come to school, so they asked him when he came back why he was absent and he said "my mom was in jail the whole day". Just like the most natural thing in the world. Apparently she was caught stealing stuff from a locked dumpster and her argument was "I have six kids to support and I cant really do that on welfare". As I said earlier the kids move from school to school, then just "dissapear" and they barely speak the language in the first place. No wonder why they dont turn out as model citizens when they grow up. They simply dont stand a chance and history just repeats it self when they raise their kids the same way that they were raised. Just so sad honestly.
This is a block that given to them to live. In 7-8 years they stripped it from windows to put the wood in the heater, and the metal to be sold for scrap. Integrate that. And you Americans have no idea about gypsies.
Just saying that in America they do the same thing for there impoverished minorities like every day of the week. And the results are very similar. And they don't post racist garbage on TL about it.
Just saying.
Ive never heard of such a thing in america. What minorities are you talking about? Do you have a source for me like the other guy ?
All of them. Every day. All the time. Takes google and about 5 seconds to look for humanitarian projects in the United States and federal housing.
We have 3 federal housing area in my town alone and they all look like shit when they used to look awesome.
Sell for scrap? Sounds like an upgrade over the silly defacing and needless destruction these places have.
Well federal housing just means housing payed by the government, we have that here too. Its just on another level, gypsies are doing it favela style they dont even have housing just some cardboards put together in the middle inbetween two train stations.
Have you ever seen a gypsy in your life? Im very very far from being racist, I came to this country as an immigrant myself, my girlfriend came here as a fugitive. I had people telling me and my gf that their jacket is worth more than her whole country. Thats racism right there. Calling out a group of people that leeches off our welfare state so audaciously is not.
Federal housing paid by the government is primarily directed at minorities. Not just anyone can get into them. But we do have a LOT of them so even white people can get into them pretty often as long as they are indeed quite poor and in need of said housing.
That being said, I don't know how to answer your question of have I seen what you are calling a "gypsy." The very word is sort of not accepted by the Romani that I have come across in my own country (good encounters overall). So I assume you are talking about the Romani that reside in the areas of eastern europe in question. In which case no. But does it really matter? I've come across the poor.
Where Im from its sort of not accepted to bullshit people into donating money for deaf people or forcing your kids to stay out of school and sell drugs instead. I think we dont come to an agreement here, lets just face it, I have no idea how things go in the US and you dont know nothing about europe so lets just agree to disagree. You dont get what im saying and frankly I dont get where you are going besides you love everyone and its wrong to call them gypsies, even though you never met one of the sort we talk about in this thread. There is even a dude from the US one page back who said he travelled to berlin for 2 (!) days and had to deal with harassment.
Forcing kids to stay out of school and sell drugs instead. Oh yeah we have that in the US lol. I guess we do a really good job of covering all that up. Quite frankly we have the same rhetoric with immigrants from Mexico and so on. I guess we're no better but if I said something like+ Show Spoiler +
all spics need to be killed in riots
like a certain someone on the front page. Im sure that would be the fastest ticket to a perm ban imaginable.
Im really not responsible for what ClouD said on the first page, neither do I agree with it. I never said anything of this sort. As i said in my other post I am against racism very much and I think those comments made are childish and wrong. BUT its not rhetoric I use to discriminate them in any form, its the truth, I see it every goddamn day when I use the subway here in Berlin and literally everybody knows that the teenagers sell hard drugs on the ride, pls read my first post which was unrelated to yours. How is lying about it, only because its politically correct, doing anyone anything good?
I dont think you can compare it to the mexicans in america, I mean they are huge in number doing jobs ranging from janitor to ceo. For every mexican involved in the drugwar there are a lot more doing normal jobs. In the romani community ,like others have said in this thread it is a great percentage of people involved in this activity.
Yeah ok. I guess I can jive with most of that. Still its important to recognize the reason why they do what they do. It works! If it stopped working, I bet something would happen.
On September 28 2011 11:52 Eatme wrote: Interestingly enough I talked about gypsies with my mother earlier today. She is a teacher and have some gypsie children in school from time to time. They dont stay in the same school for more than a year tops and sometimes they just dissapear. A few days ago a boy didnt come to school, so they asked him when he came back why he was absent and he said "my mom was in jail the whole day". Just like the most natural thing in the world. Apparently she was caught stealing stuff from a locked dumpster and her argument was "I have six kids to support and I cant really do that on welfare". As I said earlier the kids move from school to school, then just "dissapear" and they barely speak the language in the first place. No wonder why they dont turn out as model citizens when they grow up. They simply dont stand a chance and history just repeats it self when they raise their kids the same way that they were raised. Just so sad honestly.
Thats pretty much the root of the problem right there. Nobody is saying that they are an inferior race but the crazy "you're a nazi for saying that" people always turn things around because they are so narrow minded.
At the same time you have to consider that the only solution is to take children forcefully away from their parents so that this wont happen anymore which is in itself a "nazi" solution. At the same time you have to consider that you simply cannot take so many children into care centers because they are hundred of thousands.
Also, all their parents will try to teach them to commit crimes very young because they KNOW their children cannot be sent to prison even if they get caught; also they will have anywhere from 5 to 15 children easily because they view it as a source of income; either welfare of sending the children on the streets of western europe to steal or beg.
Can anyone here find a "non-nazi" solution that doesn't involve for example, taking 1 million small children away from their parents ? Well can you ?
On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote: Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Okay now I tell You a story.
It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
' Actually you're one one that is disregarding peoples arguments. He's citing his own experience in a similar matters so that blockheads like you who see what they want to see can get some distance and actually think about it. People aren't telling you or your countrymen that you are wrong in critisizing the romani culture. People aren't telling you that the situation isn't fucked up. They are telling you that you are acting in an unreasonable way and you are judging other people based on where they come from.
As you did to me you just assume that because I don't live in romania I have no insight in the matter and then you cite your puny 25 whatever years on this earth of "life experience with gipsies" as if your own personal experiences have any large scale relevance. You need to calm down and stop picking fights with everyone and take a look at the situation.
Focus your time on trying to acomplish something within your own country instead of claiming everyone not from romania that has an opinion is retarded and has no idea of what they're talking about.
I wrote a pretty mild response to your PM but after reading your subsequent posts its pretty clear that I needed to tell you in full what everyone is thinking.
Right, well when your governments (western + nordic) stop deporting EU citizens and also stop QQing about the problem and they integrate these lovely immigrants into society THEN, you can take the moral high-ground with us eastern europeans. Ok ? Until them you're all nothing but hypocrites who do one thing and say another.
Funny that western europe saw its first forceful deportations after 1945 within EU borders and with EU citizens no less and you still take the moral highground. Who has what to fix in their country ?
Unlike you. I don't identify myself with millions of other people that I have no connection to. I don't represent sweden or swedish interests. I'm not a swedish politician. My "moral high ground" as you call it is just not accepting racism and lack of logic. I keep telling you that I have never claimed that I support any of the actions of the EU nations that have taken action here. But being from sweden you clump me up with 10 million other people who has no relation to me other than being born ont he same land mass. Just because you feel like part of a national being doesn't mean that everyone else does. Some of us actually doesn't take credit for the actions of other people that we have no relation to.
Maybe you need to stop beign so nationalistic and think more logically. Your country has a problem. You need to solve it. You don't solve it by being racist or discriminatory. You whining and telling anyone who isn't from eastern europe that they are uninformed idiots when its you that won't even listen to reason is actually just proves my point.
I've played you multiple times when you were streaming or not streaming on the ladder. Almost every time you have BMed / raged at me even though I have said nothing. It seems to me like you are much the same in real life. Unless you want to step up and have a real discussion about policy I suggest you stop attacking people here that try to get their viewpoint across.
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
See you're completely missinformed and have no idea about what has happened in Europe since you left. You see, Romania and Bulgaria are now EU member states which makes all of us EU citizens and gives us the right to legally move to any part of the EU we want without any immigration papers or even a god damn passport. Kind of like moving from Arizona to Texas; you can't really do that illegaly now can you ?
Yeah lets skip the part about my own experience with gypsies which you claimed I didn't have but it's okay, not like you use proper arguments anyways.
Here's the quote: The Roma are EU citizens, mostly from Romania or Bulgaria, but French law requires them to have a work permit and prove they have the means to support themselves if they intend to stay for more than three months. Basically they have the legal right to send them home. Which they did. Would have happened to Bulgarians if they decided to live in a camp not getting work permits.
That story with the people moving into the home illegally and ruining the community makes sense to kick them out. If a white family tried to pull that shit in Canada they would be gone same with a black family asian, etc etc. This has nothing to do with race, come up with a decent argument and stop just pointing to blacks and screaming racism like it means anything... It's two entirely different situations that really cannot be compared.
I think just enforcing the law and forcing the kids to be in school is the only real solution... If you don't break the chain it will never end.
On September 28 2011 11:52 Eatme wrote: Interestingly enough I talked about gypsies with my mother earlier today. She is a teacher and have some gypsie children in school from time to time. They dont stay in the same school for more than a year tops and sometimes they just dissapear. A few days ago a boy didnt come to school, so they asked him when he came back why he was absent and he said "my mom was in jail the whole day". Just like the most natural thing in the world. Apparently she was caught stealing stuff from a locked dumpster and her argument was "I have six kids to support and I cant really do that on welfare". As I said earlier the kids move from school to school, then just "dissapear" and they barely speak the language in the first place. No wonder why they dont turn out as model citizens when they grow up. They simply dont stand a chance and history just repeats it self when they raise their kids the same way that they were raised. Just so sad honestly.
Thats pretty much the root of the problem right there. Nobody is saying that they are an inferior race but the crazy "you're a nazi for saying that" people always turn things around because they are so narrow minded.
At the same time you have to consider that the only solution is to take children forcefully away from their parents so that this wont happen anymore which is in itself a "nazi" solution. At the same time you have to consider that you simply cannot take so many children into care centers because they are hundred of thousands.
Also, all their parents will try to teach them to commit crimes very young because they KNOW their children cannot be sent to prison even if they get caught; also they will have anywhere from 5 to 15 children easily because they view it as a source of income; either welfare of sending the children on the streets of western europe to steal or beg.
Can anyone here find a "non-nazi" solution that doesn't involve for example, taking 1 million small children away from their parents ? Well can you ?
If they're teaching their children to break laws and such (and if the parents themselves are breaking laws and such), can't social services put them into foster care?
I guess that's exactly what you're saying, but social services already exist and are put in place to protect children from that sort of thing. Are you really claiming that 1 million of them are like that? Like do you have any statistics on this sort of thing?
On September 28 2011 11:52 Eatme wrote: Interestingly enough I talked about gypsies with my mother earlier today. She is a teacher and have some gypsie children in school from time to time. They dont stay in the same school for more than a year tops and sometimes they just dissapear. A few days ago a boy didnt come to school, so they asked him when he came back why he was absent and he said "my mom was in jail the whole day". Just like the most natural thing in the world. Apparently she was caught stealing stuff from a locked dumpster and her argument was "I have six kids to support and I cant really do that on welfare". As I said earlier the kids move from school to school, then just "dissapear" and they barely speak the language in the first place. No wonder why they dont turn out as model citizens when they grow up. They simply dont stand a chance and history just repeats it self when they raise their kids the same way that they were raised. Just so sad honestly.
Thats pretty much the root of the problem right there. Nobody is saying that they are an inferior race but the crazy "you're a nazi for saying that" people always turn things around because they are so narrow minded.
At the same time you have to consider that the only solution is to take children forcefully away from their parents so that this wont happen anymore which is in itself a "nazi" solution. At the same time you have to consider that you simply cannot take so many children into care centers because they are hundred of thousands.
Also, all their parents will try to teach them to commit crimes very young because they KNOW their children cannot be sent to prison even if they get caught; also they will have anywhere from 5 to 15 children easily because they view it as a source of income; either welfare of sending the children on the streets of western europe to steal or beg.
Can anyone here find a "non-nazi" solution that doesn't involve for example, taking 1 million small children away from their parents ? Well can you ?
You are racist against gypsies, there's no two ways about it. I've heard many people make similar, in fact, nearly exactly the same statements regarding African Americans or Hispanics where I live in in Los Angeles and yet I am not yelling for them to be ousted even though I lived in the worst of it (South Central LA) for a long time.
But yeah, anyone who tries to present a similar example is wrong.
Anyone who has real experience with gypsies that aren't negative or at least aren't nearly as negative percentage wise as you suggest is wrong
Anyone pointing out how blatantly discriminatory you are toward a group of people you don't even know a majority of is wrong.
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
See you're completely missinformed and have no idea about what has happened in Europe since you left. You see, Romania and Bulgaria are now EU member states which makes all of us EU citizens and gives us the right to legally move to any part of the EU we want without any immigration papers or even a god damn passport. Kind of like moving from Arizona to Texas; you can't really do that illegaly now can you ?
Yeah lets skip the part about my own experience with gypsies which you claimed I didn't have but it's okay, not like you use proper arguments anyways.
Here's the quote: The Roma are EU citizens, mostly from Romania or Bulgaria, but French law requires them to have a work permit and prove they have the means to support themselves if they intend to stay for more than three months. Basically they have the legal right to send them home. Which they did. Would have happened to Bulgarians if they decided to live in a camp not getting work permits.
You're talking to someone who went to law school here friend. That particular French law applies to immigrants and as you just said they are not immigrants they are EU citizens. At the same time EU law gives all its citizens the right to move to any member state and no national law can superseed EU law; so in case of a conflict EU law prevails. France can no more forcefully move a homeless guy to another member state than Arizona can move all its homeless to New Jersey.
Which is why in the end they had to resort to paying the gipsies for leaving the country which meant they paid for airplane ticket + 300euro each so they would "agree" to go when they realized they couldn't do it legally without a severe penalty from the European Court of Justice.
Now please, stop lecturing me about my own continent ok ?
On September 28 2011 11:52 Eatme wrote: Interestingly enough I talked about gypsies with my mother earlier today. She is a teacher and have some gypsie children in school from time to time. They dont stay in the same school for more than a year tops and sometimes they just dissapear. A few days ago a boy didnt come to school, so they asked him when he came back why he was absent and he said "my mom was in jail the whole day". Just like the most natural thing in the world. Apparently she was caught stealing stuff from a locked dumpster and her argument was "I have six kids to support and I cant really do that on welfare". As I said earlier the kids move from school to school, then just "dissapear" and they barely speak the language in the first place. No wonder why they dont turn out as model citizens when they grow up. They simply dont stand a chance and history just repeats it self when they raise their kids the same way that they were raised. Just so sad honestly.
Thats pretty much the root of the problem right there. Nobody is saying that they are an inferior race but the crazy "you're a nazi for saying that" people always turn things around because they are so narrow minded.
At the same time you have to consider that the only solution is to take children forcefully away from their parents so that this wont happen anymore which is in itself a "nazi" solution. At the same time you have to consider that you simply cannot take so many children into care centers because they are hundred of thousands.
Also, all their parents will try to teach them to commit crimes very young because they KNOW their children cannot be sent to prison even if they get caught; also they will have anywhere from 5 to 15 children easily because they view it as a source of income; either welfare of sending the children on the streets of western europe to steal or beg.
Can anyone here find a "non-nazi" solution that doesn't involve for example, taking 1 million small children away from their parents ? Well can you ?
You are racist against gypsies, there's no two ways about it. I've heard many people make similar, in fact, nearly exactly the same statements regarding African Americans or Hispanics where I live in in Los Angeles and yet I am not yelling for them to be ousted even though I lived in the worst of it (South Central LA) for a long time.
But yeah, anyone who tries to present a similar example is wrong.
Anyone who has real experience with gypsies that aren't negative or at least aren't nearly as negative percentage wise as you suggest is wrong
Anyone pointing out how blatantly discriminatory you are toward a group of people you don't even know a majority of is wrong.
Umm, okay?
Yes sir. Mr American Sir. You seem to have a lot of opinions. Can you by any chance point out the following countries on a map without opening wikipedia: Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary, Ukrain, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Macedonia?
Its very easy to comment on an issue when you're miles away and have no involvment whatsoever. I'm just gonna stop posting now, its 6 am and im tired and bored of talking to people like you.
On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote: Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Okay now I tell You a story.
It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
Ok well all of that I completely agree with pretty much 100 percent. I think this topic took a REAL bad turn when Cloud took the dump of his life all over it.
I forgot to add that French / Dutch / British / Italian and Spanish gorvenments have also been helpless in solving the problem. In fact the French government DEPORTED gipsies back to Romania / Bulgaria by airplane instead of "integrating them into society".
Dunno if airplanes come off as fancy to you, but that's how you deport people.. You don't exactly put them at the closest border and hope they don't come back. Deportation is legio when illegal immigrants are considered not having enough reason to flee their homeland, as it's not illegal to deport economic immigrants in contrast to polotic ones.
About the France example. The deportations have been called a disgrace by the EU, and it's been said that legal action will be taken against France. The camps were indeed illegal though.
Personally I think that all the hate the romanis have recieved the 700 years or so have shaped them somewhat to be more aggressive towards society. The enslavement of Africans went on for 200 years or so, whereas the enslavement of Romas went on for more than three times that, and yet there was basically no attempt of apologizing. To me it's fucking disgusting that some (and I literally feel filthy for living on the same continent as these people) seem to see it fit that romanis are victims of further prosecution.
On September 28 2011 11:52 Eatme wrote: Interestingly enough I talked about gypsies with my mother earlier today. She is a teacher and have some gypsie children in school from time to time. They dont stay in the same school for more than a year tops and sometimes they just dissapear. A few days ago a boy didnt come to school, so they asked him when he came back why he was absent and he said "my mom was in jail the whole day". Just like the most natural thing in the world. Apparently she was caught stealing stuff from a locked dumpster and her argument was "I have six kids to support and I cant really do that on welfare". As I said earlier the kids move from school to school, then just "dissapear" and they barely speak the language in the first place. No wonder why they dont turn out as model citizens when they grow up. They simply dont stand a chance and history just repeats it self when they raise their kids the same way that they were raised. Just so sad honestly.
Thats pretty much the root of the problem right there. Nobody is saying that they are an inferior race but the crazy "you're a nazi for saying that" people always turn things around because they are so narrow minded.
At the same time you have to consider that the only solution is to take children forcefully away from their parents so that this wont happen anymore which is in itself a "nazi" solution. At the same time you have to consider that you simply cannot take so many children into care centers because they are hundred of thousands.
Also, all their parents will try to teach them to commit crimes very young because they KNOW their children cannot be sent to prison even if they get caught; also they will have anywhere from 5 to 15 children easily because they view it as a source of income; either welfare of sending the children on the streets of western europe to steal or beg.
Can anyone here find a "non-nazi" solution that doesn't involve for example, taking 1 million small children away from their parents ? Well can you ?
You are racist against gypsies, there's no two ways about it. I've heard many people make similar, in fact, nearly exactly the same statements regarding African Americans or Hispanics where I live in in Los Angeles and yet I am not yelling for them to be ousted even though I lived in the worst of it (South Central LA) for a long time.
But yeah, anyone who tries to present a similar example is wrong.
Anyone who has real experience with gypsies that aren't negative or at least aren't nearly as negative percentage wise as you suggest is wrong
Anyone pointing out how blatantly discriminatory you are toward a group of people you don't even know a majority of is wrong.
Umm, okay?
Yes sir. Mr American Sir. You seem to have a lot of opinions. Can you by any chance point out the following countries on a map without opening wikipedia: Romania, Bulgaria, Serbia, Slovenia, Croatia, Hungary, Ukrain, Belarus, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Macedonia?
Its very easy to comment on an issue when you're miles away and have no involvment whatsoever. I'm just gonna stop posting now, its 6 am and im tired and bored of talking to people like you.
Can you tell me how many states are in the United States and what their capitals are? I wasn't aware knowledge of geography had anything to do with understanding social issues such as racism.
You seem to understand our situation so much though to say it's not the same, I guess you just know everything. How about you actually watch a documentary on gang culture in South Central LA and tell me you can't at the very least make loose comparisons. But I'm sure instead you'll talk down to me like I'm some inferior person, just like you do to the gypsies.
But I guess I'm just wrong because I'm a stupid, fat, ugly American living on welfare. I'll go back to enjoying my country music about how much America kicks ass now.
On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote: Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Okay now I tell You a story.
It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
Ok well all of that I completely agree with pretty much 100 percent. I think this topic took a REAL bad turn when Cloud took the dump of his life all over it.
I forgot to add that French / Dutch / British / Italian and Spanish gorvenments have also been helpless in solving the problem. In fact the French government DEPORTED gipsies back to Romania / Bulgaria by airplane instead of "integrating them into society".
Dunno if airplanes come off as fancy to you, but that's how you deport people.. You don't exactly put them at the closest border and hope they don't come back. Deportation is legio when illegal immigrants are considered not having enough reason to flee their homeland, as it's not illegal to deport economic immigrants in contrast to polotic ones.
About the France example. The deportations have been called a disgrace by the EU, and it's been said that legal action will be taken against France. The camps were indeed illegal though.
Personally I think that all the hate the romanis have recieved the 700 years or so have shaped them somewhat to be more aggressive towards society. The enslavement of Africans went on for 200 years or so, whereas the enslavement of Romas went on for more than three times that, and yet there was basically no attempt of apologizing. To me it's fucking disgusting that some (and I literally feel filthy for living on the same continent as these people) seem to see it fit that romanis are victims of further prosecution.
If only you would at least take the time to read what i've written. And you should be ashamed of yourself that as a EU citizen and with Sweden a full member of the EU for so long you have no idea that EU citizens cannot be forcefully moved under ANY circumstances since they are not immigrants within EU borders. The french ended up paying off all the gipsies with their own money so they will never be legal action against france and nor was it "illegal on paper". They would not be so dumb.
But the most i am surprised by your lack of knowledge on how the EU works. Sweden has been a member state for alot longer than Romania / Bulgaria; they really should teach you this stuff in schools.
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
See you're completely missinformed and have no idea about what has happened in Europe since you left. You see, Romania and Bulgaria are now EU member states which makes all of us EU citizens and gives us the right to legally move to any part of the EU we want without any immigration papers or even a god damn passport. Kind of like moving from Arizona to Texas; you can't really do that illegaly now can you ?
Yeah lets skip the part about my own experience with gypsies which you claimed I didn't have but it's okay, not like you use proper arguments anyways.
Here's the quote: The Roma are EU citizens, mostly from Romania or Bulgaria, but French law requires them to have a work permit and prove they have the means to support themselves if they intend to stay for more than three months. Basically they have the legal right to send them home. Which they did. Would have happened to Bulgarians if they decided to live in a camp not getting work permits.
You're talking to someone who went to law school here friend. That particular French law applies to immigrants and as you just said they are not immigrants they are EU citizens. At the same time EU law gives all its citizens the right to move to any member state and no national law can superseed EU law; so in case of a conflict EU law prevails. France can no more forcefully move a homeless guy to another member state than Arizona can move all its homeless to New Jersey.
Which is why in the end they had to resort to paying the gipsies for leaving the country which meant they paid for airplane ticket + 300euro each so they would "agree" to go when they realized they couldn't do it legally without a severe penalty from the European Court of Justice.
Now please, stop lecturing me about my own continent ok ?
They may have paid them because it's cheaper than doing it in court but seems to me like they had every right (not to forcefully move them but to deny them residency):
EEA citizens have the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
See you're completely missinformed and have no idea about what has happened in Europe since you left. You see, Romania and Bulgaria are now EU member states which makes all of us EU citizens and gives us the right to legally move to any part of the EU we want without any immigration papers or even a god damn passport. Kind of like moving from Arizona to Texas; you can't really do that illegaly now can you ?
Yeah lets skip the part about my own experience with gypsies which you claimed I didn't have but it's okay, not like you use proper arguments anyways.
Here's the quote: The Roma are EU citizens, mostly from Romania or Bulgaria, but French law requires them to have a work permit and prove they have the means to support themselves if they intend to stay for more than three months. Basically they have the legal right to send them home. Which they did. Would have happened to Bulgarians if they decided to live in a camp not getting work permits.
You're talking to someone who went to law school here friend. That particular French law applies to immigrants and as you just said they are not immigrants they are EU citizens. At the same time EU law gives all its citizens the right to move to any member state and no national law can superseed EU law; so in case of a conflict EU law prevails. France can no more forcefully move a homeless guy to another member state than Arizona can move all its homeless to New Jersey.
Which is why in the end they had to resort to paying the gipsies for leaving the country which meant they paid for airplane ticket + 300euro each so they would "agree" to go when they realized they couldn't do it legally without a severe penalty from the European Court of Justice.
Now please, stop lecturing me about my own continent ok ?
The European Commission said that under the 27-nation bloc's freedom of movement laws it was up to individual member states to decide whether to kick someone out of a country for committing a crime.
"It is really for the state to decide, so it is really a French issue and we cannot really go further than that," said a spokesman for European justice and rights commissioner Viviane Reding, who has warned against Roma discrimation.
Before an EU citizen can be expelled from a member state, authorities must examine whether a crime was committed and how the person is integrated into the host country, said the spokesman, Matthew Newman.
But, he added, "We're not here, as the European Commission, to judge on individual cases of Roma people. It's for each government, each authority to make those decisions."
French Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux said Wednesday 300 illegal "camps or squats" housing Gypsies and travellers would be shut down and foreign Gypsies breaking the law would undergo "virtually immediate" deportation to their countries of origins.
The idea that someone from Romania claims Europe to be 'his continent' is just amusing to me. You weren't even in the EU few years ago and honestly should not be. So yeah, I'll stop lecturing you about YOUR continent maybe because delusions of grandeur are nothing to mess with. Lol.
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
See you're completely missinformed and have no idea about what has happened in Europe since you left. You see, Romania and Bulgaria are now EU member states which makes all of us EU citizens and gives us the right to legally move to any part of the EU we want without any immigration papers or even a god damn passport. Kind of like moving from Arizona to Texas; you can't really do that illegaly now can you ?
Yeah lets skip the part about my own experience with gypsies which you claimed I didn't have but it's okay, not like you use proper arguments anyways.
Here's the quote: The Roma are EU citizens, mostly from Romania or Bulgaria, but French law requires them to have a work permit and prove they have the means to support themselves if they intend to stay for more than three months. Basically they have the legal right to send them home. Which they did. Would have happened to Bulgarians if they decided to live in a camp not getting work permits.
You're talking to someone who went to law school here friend. That particular French law applies to immigrants and as you just said they are not immigrants they are EU citizens. At the same time EU law gives all its citizens the right to move to any member state and no national law can superseed EU law; so in case of a conflict EU law prevails. France can no more forcefully move a homeless guy to another member state than Arizona can move all its homeless to New Jersey.
Which is why in the end they had to resort to paying the gipsies for leaving the country which meant they paid for airplane ticket + 300euro each so they would "agree" to go when they realized they couldn't do it legally without a severe penalty from the European Court of Justice.
Now please, stop lecturing me about my own continent ok ?
They may have paid them because it's cheaper than doing it in court but seems to me like they had every right:
EEA citizens have the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance
The real problem with the deportations lies with art. 27 (2) which protects individuals from unjustified measures taken on the grounds of public security. In explicit defiance of this provision, states have focused on the Roma as a specific ethnic group for deportation, not the conduct of individuals concerned.
The European community has been quick to respond in its condemnation of France’s latest round of deportations, with EU Justice Commissioner Viviane Reding likening the expulsions of the Roma to WW2. The Council of Europe and the EU have called for a high level joint session on October 20, 2010 to discuss the Roma in Europe. Despite this, it remains unclear that states will take effective steps to protect the mobility and equality rights of a minority group that regularly faces physical attacks, segregated schools, and, in some cases, forced sterilization. As seen elsewhere in this blog, insensitivity to Roma identity is rampant – from glib titles referencing negative cultural stereotypes to>> targeted Canadian policies to limit Roma immigration. << It remains to be seen whether the EU will take the upcoming session as an opportunity to expand the Free Movement Directive in encompassing a model of inter-state citizenship or indulge in the ongoing stigmatization of Europe’s most notorious ethnic minority.
1. It is not law when an ethnic group is being targeted by the government while other immigrants and non-citizens live on welfare; the article has never before been interpreted in such a way to deport any other ethnic group.
2. I think this is a good reply for the Canadian guy who took the moral highground ealier saying how this would NEVER happen in Canada because Canada is so super awesome. lol-ing so hard man, so hard.
The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, and particularly better than NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
On September 28 2011 02:36 cellblock wrote: I lived in a flat as a kid and we had gypsy neighbours in the next door, I remember they tried to steal my young sisters bike once, thats normal for them. My mother had to nearly fight to get it back. They moved out some time after, probably got kicked out. When our bathroom was getting repaired we had to use the gypsies one. Even though they had moved out already, the fucking smell in the apartment was sickening. Ive never smelled anything that bad before, like dead animal mixed with piss and shit. If you see a beggar on the streets in bigger towns here, then its 99% a gypsy. They tend to hand out red roses for free to people on the streets, but want you to pay after you recieved it. Ive noticed that its only their women and children begging, which is sad. They need to learn how to adapt to a modern society.
yeah the read roses trick. what they do is they say something about it being a tradition to give people roses and then they ask for some small amount of money. when you give them the money they say it's the wrong bill, and put it back in your wallet. the roses cover their other hand which is actually taking money from your wallet at the same time.
On September 28 2011 12:31 discodancer wrote: The idea that someone from Romania claims Europe to be 'his continent' is just amusing to me. You weren't even in the EU few years ago and honestly should not be. So yeah, I'll stop lecturing you about YOUR continent maybe because delusions of grandeur are nothing to mess with. Lol.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
What does being an American have to do with anything?
Seriously...
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
OH WAIT... I forgot you would rather kill them all. AM I RIGHT?
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
If 95% of a group does something, and 5% doesn't, would you really call it generalizing? On top of that, I have almost always used qualifiers like "overwhelming percentage" etc. Despite that, you still decide to make a smart alec remark.
As to hiring, see my above paragraph in reply to you. Especially during Communist times, the welfare for them has been absolutely through the roof. Last I checked, gypsies were not being persecuted, so I don't know where you got that horse shit from. It's not that you're from NA that you don't understand the situation. It's that you just don't. The fact that you don't even know how much affirmative action as far as jobs, housing, education, etc. that has been offered to them shows you really don't know what is going on.
The fact that you think you know better than the people who live right in those countries is in particular quite arrogant and ignorant.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
On September 28 2011 12:31 discodancer wrote: The idea that someone from Romania claims Europe to be 'his continent' is just amusing to me. You weren't even in the EU few years ago and honestly should not be. So yeah, I'll stop lecturing you about YOUR continent maybe because delusions of grandeur are nothing to mess with. Lol.
Uhm, what is this shit?
I have no idea. Honestly. But just for the record: From roughly 500 BC (the second Iron Age), the Dacians developed a distinctive civilization capable of supporting large centralized kingdoms.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
What does being an American have to do with anything?
Seriously...
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
OH WAIT... I forgot you would rather kill them all. AM I RIGHT?
1. Because jobs are not given, they are earned ? Why don't you give jobs to all your homeless if its that simple ? 2. Because the government cannot FORCE private enterprises to hire people who cannot read or write and have 1~3 years of school. What planet are you living on ? 3. Because they are uneducated across generations, from father to son to grandson they pull themselves out of school and live in tents.
But yeah, keep comparing them to "South Central L.A."; or did you just wanna let anyone know how rugged your are for living in the bad part of town ?
There's another guy just above telling me how i don't "know" some particular areas in LA and Detroit. You're hilarious ^_^;
This thread is quite possibly the most disgusting thread I've ever read on Teamliquid. I feel like I'm looking at a pre-1960ish America, except instead of African Americans, it's gypsies. Absolutely sickening. I can't even believe what I'm reading. I thought Europe was better than this.
On September 28 2011 12:31 discodancer wrote: The idea that someone from Romania claims Europe to be 'his continent' is just amusing to me. You weren't even in the EU few years ago and honestly should not be. So yeah, I'll stop lecturing you about YOUR continent maybe because delusions of grandeur are nothing to mess with. Lol.
Uhm, what is this shit?
lol, he seems to be confusing geography with political groups. Bulgaria is part of Europe whether in the EU or not.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
If 95% of a group does something, and 5% doesn't, would you really call it generalizing? On top of that, I have almost always used qualifiers like "overwhelming percentage" etc. Despite that, you still decide to make a smart alec remark.
As to hiring, see my above paragraph in reply to you. Especially during Communist times, the welfare for them has been absolutely through the roof. Last I checked, gypsies were not being persecuted, so I don't know where you got that horse shit from. It's not that you're from NA that you don't understand the situation. It's that you just don't. The fact that you don't even know how much affirmative action as far as jobs, housing, education, etc. that has been offered to them shows you really don't know what is going on.
The fact that you think you know better than the people who live right in those countries is in particular quite arrogant and ignorant.
No one wants to work if they are being spit at.
If you think that people they work with treat them with respect you are mistaken. If someone gave you a job but spat on you and insulted you, would u want to work there?
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
What does being an American have to do with anything?
Seriously...
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
OH WAIT... I forgot you would rather kill them all. AM I RIGHT?
1. Because jobs are not given, they are earned ? Why don't you give jobs to all your homeless if its that simple ? 2. Because the government cannot FORCE private enterprises to hire people who cannot read or write and have 1~3 years of school. What planet are you living on ? 3. Because they are uneducated across generations, from father to son to grandson they pull themselves out of school and live in tents.
But yeah, keep comparing them to "South Central L.A."; or did you just wanna let anyone know how rugged your are for living in the bad part of town ?
So your telling me you need a very high degree for fast food? You have to start somewhere. I have no doubt in my mind they are not working in good environments. Refer to my post above.
On September 28 2011 13:13 Josealtron wrote: This thread is quite possibly the most disgusting thread I've ever read on Teamliquid. I feel like I'm looking at a pre-1960ish America, except instead of African Americans, it's gypsies. Absolutely sickening. I can't even believe what I'm reading. I thought Europe was better than this.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
What does being an American have to do with anything?
Seriously...
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
OH WAIT... I forgot you would rather kill them all. AM I RIGHT?
1. Because jobs are not given, they are earned ? Why don't you give jobs to all your homeless if its that simple ? 2. Because the government cannot FORCE private enterprises to hire people who cannot read or write and have 1~3 years of school. What planet are you living on ? 3. Because they are uneducated across generations, from father to son to grandson they pull themselves out of school and live in tents.
But yeah, keep comparing them to "South Central L.A."; or did you just wanna let anyone know how rugged your are for living in the bad part of town ?
1. People like you are the very reason homelessness still exists at the rate it does. 2. Governments force a lot of things. 3. What does this have to do with anything? Are you suggesting that over a few generations they bred out their ability to be intelligent? WHAT THE FUCK?
You've talked down to other people constantly in this thread (as though you are innately superior) while at the same time acting as if all of us are taking the moral high ground merely to look courageous.
You thought giving me geography trivia was adequate to gauge if my opinion on a social issue was relevant or not. You explicitly called me out due to me being American, not for me being, "full of shit" or anything.
You then act as if I'm completely incapable of understanding what's going on where you live but profess to have in depth knowledge about every little intricacy that goes on where I live.
You've posted several times that you were going to stop posting and yet you can't stop, because you enjoy inciting people so much. Keyboard warrior comes to mind.
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
If someone judges all Americans over one person, guess what that makes them? Racist. I'm not even going to bother addressing the rest of your post because it's merely you trying to shout over me. Watch a documentary on gang culture in LA and tell me it can't be directly compared to what some people are saying about gypsies in this very thread. It's a valid comparison in some respects.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Would you want to be a part of a society where everyone thinks you are a good for nothing scum?
Now please, Stop making Americans look so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for. The government and the local authorities build apartments and give them away for free here.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
If 95% of a group does something, and 5% doesn't, would you really call it generalizing? On top of that, I have almost always used qualifiers like "overwhelming percentage" etc. Despite that, you still decide to make a smart alec remark.
As to hiring, see my above paragraph in reply to you. Especially during Communist times, the welfare for them has been absolutely through the roof. Last I checked, gypsies were not being persecuted, so I don't know where you got that horse shit from. It's not that you're from NA that you don't understand the situation. It's that you just don't. The fact that you don't even know how much affirmative action as far as jobs, housing, education, etc. that has been offered to them shows you really don't know what is going on.
The fact that you think you know better than the people who live right in those countries is in particular quite arrogant and ignorant.
No one wants to work if they are being spit at.
If you think that people they work with treat them with respect you are mistaken. If someone gave you a job but spat on you and insulted you, would u want to work there?
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
What does being an American have to do with anything?
Seriously...
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
OH WAIT... I forgot you would rather kill them all. AM I RIGHT?
1. Because jobs are not given, they are earned ? Why don't you give jobs to all your homeless if its that simple ? 2. Because the government cannot FORCE private enterprises to hire people who cannot read or write and have 1~3 years of school. What planet are you living on ? 3. Because they are uneducated across generations, from father to son to grandson they pull themselves out of school and live in tents.
But yeah, keep comparing them to "South Central L.A."; or did you just wanna let anyone know how rugged your are for living in the bad part of town ?
So your telling me you need a very high degree for fast food? You have to start somewhere. I have no doubt in my mind they are not working in good environments. Refer to my post above.
On September 28 2011 13:13 Josealtron wrote: This thread is quite possibly the most disgusting thread I've ever read on Teamliquid. I feel like I'm looking at a pre-1960ish America, except instead of African Americans, it's gypsies. Absolutely sickening. I can't even believe what I'm reading. I thought Europe was better than this.
My sentiments exactly. Europeans disgust me.
No one wants to work if they are being spit at.
If you think that people they work with treat them with respect you are mistaken. If someone gave you a job but spat on you and insulted you, would u want to work there?
Except they never took the job, and were never spit on. Why do you keep spouting bs? I know you're pulling shit out of your ass, but humor me, and tell me where some huge number of gypsies took up jobs and lived in society and were spit on and stuff and went back to thievery and crime. I really love the fairy tales you're telling .
The reality is they don't want to be a part of society. Plain and simple. That is their conviction regardless of anything. They're too cool for school, so to speak. The fact of the matter is they're a terrible bane on society despite not being a part of it, and yet they still don't get spit on. And you expect them to get spit on if they were good, law-abiding people?
My sentiments exactly. Europeans disgust me.
Well, this explains it. You're racist. You could have said that earlier so we could figure out why you're spewing so much completely unreasonable, false bs. I'm just thankful you're not American because we get enough flak for such ignorance and arrogance.
Btw, congrats on trash-talking much of the forum population, and many of the team members of Team Liquid.
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
Maybe not to that extent but there are many scholarships valid only for minorities and certain schools do pick people of minorities explicitly because they are a minority even though there are more qualified applicants.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
On September 28 2011 13:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Well, this explains it. You're racist. You could have said that earlier so we could figure out why you're spewing so much completely unreasonable, false bs. I'm just thankful you're not American because we get enough flak for such ignorance and arrogance.
Btw, congrats on trash-talking much of the forum population, and many of the team members of Team Liquid.
"Everyone is racist but me and December! I'm not racist... by the way, 95% of the gypsy population wants to be uneducated thieves that pump out children for welfare, I have studies to back this up too, here they are:"
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
As has been stated many times in this thread, lower education is free. It's just the gypsies don't want to go to school, or go for a very limited period. I see you do not reply to my last reply to you. Truth hurts, huh?
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
If 95% of a group does something, and 5% doesn't, would you really call it generalizing? On top of that, I have almost always used qualifiers like "overwhelming percentage" etc. Despite that, you still decide to make a smart alec remark.
As to hiring, see my above paragraph in reply to you. Especially during Communist times, the welfare for them has been absolutely through the roof. Last I checked, gypsies were not being persecuted, so I don't know where you got that horse shit from. It's not that you're from NA that you don't understand the situation. It's that you just don't. The fact that you don't even know how much affirmative action as far as jobs, housing, education, etc. that has been offered to them shows you really don't know what is going on.
The fact that you think you know better than the people who live right in those countries is in particular quite arrogant and ignorant.
No one wants to work if they are being spit at.
If you think that people they work with treat them with respect you are mistaken. If someone gave you a job but spat on you and insulted you, would u want to work there?
On September 28 2011 13:11 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:58 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
What does being an American have to do with anything?
Seriously...
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
OH WAIT... I forgot you would rather kill them all. AM I RIGHT?
1. Because jobs are not given, they are earned ? Why don't you give jobs to all your homeless if its that simple ? 2. Because the government cannot FORCE private enterprises to hire people who cannot read or write and have 1~3 years of school. What planet are you living on ? 3. Because they are uneducated across generations, from father to son to grandson they pull themselves out of school and live in tents.
But yeah, keep comparing them to "South Central L.A."; or did you just wanna let anyone know how rugged your are for living in the bad part of town ?
So your telling me you need a very high degree for fast food? You have to start somewhere. I have no doubt in my mind they are not working in good environments. Refer to my post above.
On September 28 2011 13:13 Josealtron wrote: This thread is quite possibly the most disgusting thread I've ever read on Teamliquid. I feel like I'm looking at a pre-1960ish America, except instead of African Americans, it's gypsies. Absolutely sickening. I can't even believe what I'm reading. I thought Europe was better than this.
If you think that people they work with treat them with respect you are mistaken. If someone gave you a job but spat on you and insulted you, would u want to work there?
Except they never took the job, and were never spit on. Why do you keep spouting bs? I know you're pulling shit out of your ass, but humor me, and tell me where some huge number of gypsies took up jobs and lived in society and were spit on and stuff and went back to thievery and crime. I really love the fairy tales you're telling .
The reality is they don't want to be a part of society. Plain and simple. That is their conviction regardless of anything. They're too cool for school, so to speak. The fact of the matter is they're a terrible bane on society despite not being a part of it, and yet they still don't get spit on. And you expect them to get spit on if they were good, law-abiding people?
Well, this explains it. You're racist. You could have said that earlier so we could figure out why you're spewing so much completely unreasonable, false bs. I'm just thankful you're not American because we get enough flak for such ignorance and arrogance.
Btw, congrats on trash-talking much of the forum population, and many of the team members of Team Liquid.
PLEASE... read what the Europeans have been writing about Gypsies, then tell me If you honestly think they would be treated fairly in any workplace.
I am a racist because I am disgusted by what the Europeans in this thread have been saying? If thats the case then im fine with being a racist.
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
You dont seem to get it do you...Please look at how communities who were discriminated their entire life react when they are suddenly given opportunities. They are suspicious and un trusting.
Also the fact that they have trouble going through high school because of all the discrimination they face, I cant imagine many of them have even high enough aspirations to hope to get to university.
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
As has been stated many times in this thread, lower education is free. It's just the gypsies don't want to go to school, or go for a very limited period. I see you do not reply to my last reply to you. Truth hurts, huh?
You want the truth, if you take all my posts in this thread, then all of yours and show them to the average person the person they would say is racist, or at least the most racist is you. I would bet money on it.
It isn't about lower education being free, it's about making sure they don't get discriminated against when they decide to go down this avenue and that will have a trickle down effect. You're going on and on and on AND ON about their opportunities and yet with all the discrimination in this thread it's no wonder they can't integrate themselves into the population.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
What does being an American have to do with anything?
Seriously...
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
OH WAIT... I forgot you would rather kill them all. AM I RIGHT?
1. Because jobs are not given, they are earned ? Why don't you give jobs to all your homeless if its that simple ? 2. Because the government cannot FORCE private enterprises to hire people who cannot read or write and have 1~3 years of school. What planet are you living on ? 3. Because they are uneducated across generations, from father to son to grandson they pull themselves out of school and live in tents.
Guys, you are going a bit too harsh on that guy.
1. You have no idea how big the unemployment rate in Bulgaria and Romania is. People with bachelor's and masters' degrees have to work at fast food. I have finished high school and have yet to go to uni and I couldn't find a job for myself.
2. People are talking as if the goverment here can force something as big as making cooperations hire those people, but there are some problems with that. Firstly, there are enough Bulgarians with qualifications needed to work there. Secondly, Bulgaria is a poor country. There is a running joke that the only European country poorer than Bulgaria is Albania. The counrty lives by the investments in the privite business and most of the politicians are either afraid to do anything about it and/or don't care because they get what they want - power and money.
3. This is the case with most of the gypsys. You are actually better off an arphan, at least you will end up in an orphanage and they will look after you all the way up to High School when you turn 18. For the others, this is not the case. Many parents break their kids lims and send them to beg for money. And there is no way around it. You can even "borrow" a baby for money from another family to help you make money, because mothers with babies make more.
Aside from those, my mother worked in a organisation that helps homeless and poor. She said that most of the people offered minimum wage carrying brick from point A to point B refuse, because the minimum wage is almost equal to the help you get from the gevernmen for being unemployed and having a lot of kids.
So, guys, don't be too quick to judge him (and us). I know how it looks like from outside, and I know he didn't explain everything for the foreigners, but people who pretend to be above the law and parasite on society and/or live off of illigel businesses be they gypsys or not are common everywhere. It is just that here it is so obvious, they dont pay for water and electricity and still have those.
And when one of those minorities purposely runs over somebody, after years of terror in the village, it was the logical outcome
On September 28 2011 13:27 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:19 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
If 95% of a group does something, and 5% doesn't, would you really call it generalizing? On top of that, I have almost always used qualifiers like "overwhelming percentage" etc. Despite that, you still decide to make a smart alec remark.
As to hiring, see my above paragraph in reply to you. Especially during Communist times, the welfare for them has been absolutely through the roof. Last I checked, gypsies were not being persecuted, so I don't know where you got that horse shit from. It's not that you're from NA that you don't understand the situation. It's that you just don't. The fact that you don't even know how much affirmative action as far as jobs, housing, education, etc. that has been offered to them shows you really don't know what is going on.
The fact that you think you know better than the people who live right in those countries is in particular quite arrogant and ignorant.
No one wants to work if they are being spit at.
If you think that people they work with treat them with respect you are mistaken. If someone gave you a job but spat on you and insulted you, would u want to work there?
On September 28 2011 13:11 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:58 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
What does being an American have to do with anything?
Seriously...
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
OH WAIT... I forgot you would rather kill them all. AM I RIGHT?
1. Because jobs are not given, they are earned ? Why don't you give jobs to all your homeless if its that simple ? 2. Because the government cannot FORCE private enterprises to hire people who cannot read or write and have 1~3 years of school. What planet are you living on ? 3. Because they are uneducated across generations, from father to son to grandson they pull themselves out of school and live in tents.
But yeah, keep comparing them to "South Central L.A."; or did you just wanna let anyone know how rugged your are for living in the bad part of town ?
So your telling me you need a very high degree for fast food? You have to start somewhere. I have no doubt in my mind they are not working in good environments. Refer to my post above.
On September 28 2011 13:13 Josealtron wrote: This thread is quite possibly the most disgusting thread I've ever read on Teamliquid. I feel like I'm looking at a pre-1960ish America, except instead of African Americans, it's gypsies. Absolutely sickening. I can't even believe what I'm reading. I thought Europe was better than this.
My sentiments exactly. Europeans disgust me.
No one wants to work if they are being spit at.
If you think that people they work with treat them with respect you are mistaken. If someone gave you a job but spat on you and insulted you, would u want to work there?
Except they never took the job, and were never spit on. Why do you keep spouting bs? I know you're pulling shit out of your ass, but humor me, and tell me where some huge number of gypsies took up jobs and lived in society and were spit on and stuff and went back to thievery and crime. I really love the fairy tales you're telling .
The reality is they don't want to be a part of society. Plain and simple. That is their conviction regardless of anything. They're too cool for school, so to speak. The fact of the matter is they're a terrible bane on society despite not being a part of it, and yet they still don't get spit on. And you expect them to get spit on if they were good, law-abiding people?
My sentiments exactly. Europeans disgust me.
Well, this explains it. You're racist. You could have said that earlier so we could figure out why you're spewing so much completely unreasonable, false bs. I'm just thankful you're not American because we get enough flak for such ignorance and arrogance.
Btw, congrats on trash-talking much of the forum population, and many of the team members of Team Liquid.
PLEASE... read what the Europeans have been writing about Gypsies, then tell me If you honestly think they would be treated fairly in any workplace.
I am a racist because I am disgusted by what the Europeans in this thread have been saying? If thats the case then im fine with being a racist.
We've already gone over how you've been completely pulling things out of your ass and absolutely know nothing of the matter, so there's no point of going over that again.
The people in this thread have been stating what happens, plain and simple. They give and offer to the gypsies, and they don't want it; instead they would prefer taking welfare from the government and stealing and murdering. And you say the people in this thread are mean for basically being news reporters of what goes on? The only bad comment I saw was by Cloud.
Yes, you said Europeans disgust you, and now you admit you are a racist, confirming that you made a racist post. Well, seeing the mod note in white at the top of the thread, I guess that means a brief ban for you. Good bye.
On September 28 2011 12:31 discodancer wrote: The idea that someone from Romania claims Europe to be 'his continent' is just amusing to me. You weren't even in the EU few years ago and honestly should not be. So yeah, I'll stop lecturing you about YOUR continent maybe because delusions of grandeur are nothing to mess with. Lol.
Uhm, what is this shit?
lol, he seems to be confusing geography with political groups. Bulgaria is part of Europe whether in the EU or not.
It's just funny that some guy basically living on the outskirts of Europe speaks of Europe like it is something that he has an exclusive right to argue about. I was ironic about 'this is my continent' simply because that reminds me of Tabaqui who feeds on scraps from Shere Khan yet makes the most commotion.
On September 28 2011 13:32 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:29 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:26 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
As has been stated many times in this thread, lower education is free. It's just the gypsies don't want to go to school, or go for a very limited period. I see you do not reply to my last reply to you. Truth hurts, huh?
You want the truth, if you take all my posts in this thread, then all of yours and show them to the average person the person they would say is racist, or at least the most racist is you. I would bet money on it.
It isn't about lower education being free, it's about making sure they don't get discriminated against when they decide to go down this avenue and that will have a trickle down effect. You going on and on and on AND ON about their opportunities and yet with all the discrimination in this thread it's no wonder they can't integrate themselves into the population.
The fact of the matter is that you know nothing of the situation nor anything about Romania and Bulgaria, making up complete horse shit and completely irrational analogies that I (along with a few others) already tore through, and then claiming that you know more than the people who live there everyday, and then you claim that they are evil racists and that's all there is to it. You realize how incredibly absurd that is? If I wanted comedy, I'd go watch a comedy movie if I wanted a big laugh, but this is nearly as good.
If reporting simple facts is racist as you claim, then I guess our news is racist for saying the US's war in Iraq has killed over a million people and has caused uncountable social, political, infrastructural, etc. damage. That's not sound logic, I'm afraid.
On September 28 2011 13:32 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:29 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:26 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
As has been stated many times in this thread, lower education is free. It's just the gypsies don't want to go to school, or go for a very limited period. I see you do not reply to my last reply to you. Truth hurts, huh?
You want the truth, if you take all my posts in this thread, then all of yours and show them to the average person the person they would say is racist, or at least the most racist is you. I would bet money on it.
It isn't about lower education being free, it's about making sure they don't get discriminated against when they decide to go down this avenue and that will have a trickle down effect. You going on and on and on AND ON about their opportunities and yet with all the discrimination in this thread it's no wonder they can't integrate themselves into the population.
The fact of the matter is that you know nothing of the situation nor anything about Romania and Bulgaria, making up complete horse shit and completely irrational analogies that I (along with a few others) already tore through, and then claiming that you know more than the people who live there everyday, and then you claim that they are evil racists and that's all there is to it. You realize how incredibly absurd that is? If I wanted comedy, I'd go watch a comedy movie if I wanted a big laugh, but this is nearly as good.
If reporting simple facts is racist as you claim, then I guess our news is racist for saying the US's war in Iraq has killed over a million people and has caused uncountable social, political, infrastructural, etc. damage. That's not sound logic, I'm afraid.
You want to know what was incredibly absurd? Your post before this one.
But then you decided to talk about the US's war in Iraq. I definitely see how that's relevant. I'm done responding to you and unlike December I have the willpower to follow through.
I wish you the best of luck and hope you see the end of the gypsies as you so obviously desire.
On September 28 2011 13:32 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:29 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:26 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
As has been stated many times in this thread, lower education is free. It's just the gypsies don't want to go to school, or go for a very limited period. I see you do not reply to my last reply to you. Truth hurts, huh?
You want the truth, if you take all my posts in this thread, then all of yours and show them to the average person the person they would say is racist, or at least the most racist is you. I would bet money on it.
It isn't about lower education being free, it's about making sure they don't get discriminated against when they decide to go down this avenue and that will have a trickle down effect. You going on and on and on AND ON about their opportunities and yet with all the discrimination in this thread it's no wonder they can't integrate themselves into the population.
THANK YOU! This is what people seem to be missing.
They go to School and they are bullied.
They get a job and they are bullied.
THEY HAVE NO ESCAPE. Just look at what you ppl have been saying about gypsies. If I said ANYTHING like that about Blacks//Whites/Asians/Browns I would be given hell..
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
As has been stated many times in this thread, lower education is free. It's just the gypsies don't want to go to school, or go for a very limited period. I see you do not reply to my last reply to you. Truth hurts, huh?
Why the fuck would you want to be part of a society that spits on you? Why the fuck would you want to send your children to a school where everyone, including teachers, will treat the child like shit?
If the parent knows that everyone is going to treat your child like shit because he/she's a gypsy, the only thing the parent can do is teach a child how to survive in that world. No one will want to hire them. No one will want to give them opportunities. Stop with the "we tried to integrate them" bullshit-the hatred makes it clear that there's no desire to integrate them.
This is what the vast majority of the hateful posters don't understand. When everyone hates you for who you are, why the hell would you want to be near them? Why would you care about stealing from them, when they treat you as subhuman anyway? There's been comments referring to them as rats or similar.
And I know somebody is going to say "You're from the US, you don't understand, stfu". Attack the fucking argument, not the poster-that's something I've been seeing a lot in this thread by people too blinded to actually think rationally.
OF COURSE it's gonna look like the majority of gypsies are terrible when all you ever hear about them is shit like this. That doesn't make it true, and it doesn't come close to justifying the things some have said.
And what happened to "racist comments will result in a ban?" This shit shouldn't be allowed on this site.
On September 28 2011 13:32 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:29 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:26 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
As has been stated many times in this thread, lower education is free. It's just the gypsies don't want to go to school, or go for a very limited period. I see you do not reply to my last reply to you. Truth hurts, huh?
Why the fuck would you want to be part of a society that spits on you? Why the fuck would you want to send your children to a school where everyone, including teachers, will treat the child like shit?
If the parent knows that everyone is going to treat your child like shit because he/she's a gypsy, the only thing the parent can do is teach a child how to survive in that world. No one will want to hire them. No one will want to give them opportunities. Stop with the "we tried to integrate them" bullshit-the hatred makes it clear that there's no desire to integrate them.
This is what the vast majority of the hateful posters don't understand. When everyone hates you for who you are, why the hell would you want to be near them? Why would you care about stealing from them, when they treat you as subhuman anyway? There's been comments referring to them as rats or similar.
And I know somebody is going to say "You're from the US, you don't understand, stfu". Attack the fucking argument, not the poster-that's something I've been seeing a lot in this thread by people too blinded to actually think rationally.
OF COURSE it's gonna look like the majority of gypsies are terrible when all you ever hear about them is shit like this. That doesn't make it true, and it doesn't come close to justifying the things some have said.
And what happened to "racist comments will result in a ban?" This shit shouldn't be allowed on this site.
I agree.
TL Mods should be banning a few ppl. I'd be happy to name names.
On September 28 2011 13:32 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:29 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:26 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
As has been stated many times in this thread, lower education is free. It's just the gypsies don't want to go to school, or go for a very limited period. I see you do not reply to my last reply to you. Truth hurts, huh?
Why the fuck would you want to be part of a society that spits on you? Why the fuck would you want to send your children to a school where everyone, including teachers, will treat the child like shit?
If the parent knows that everyone is going to treat your child like shit because he/she's a gypsy, the only thing the parent can do is teach a child how to survive in that world. No one will want to hire them. No one will want to give them opportunities. Stop with the "we tried to integrate them" bullshit-the hatred makes it clear that there's no desire to integrate them.
This is what the vast majority of the hateful posters don't understand. When everyone hates you for who you are, why the hell would you want to be near them? Why would you care about stealing from them, when they treat you as subhuman anyway? There's been comments referring to them as rats or similar.
And I know somebody is going to say "You're from the US, you don't understand, stfu". Attack the fucking argument, not the poster-that's something I've been seeing a lot in this thread by people too blinded to actually think rationally.
OF COURSE it's gonna look like the majority of gypsies are terrible when all you ever hear about them is shit like this. That doesn't make it true, and it doesn't come close to justifying the things some have said.
And what happened to "racist comments will result in a ban?" This shit shouldn't be allowed on this site.
But he has sound logic bro! 95% of gypsies want to be uneducated thieves and murderers! Look at all the studies he linked! Us here in the Western world can't possibly comprehend such things. We best just listen to our country music and watch Team America.
On a more serious note I agree with you wholeheartedly and am glad there is always a rational person around the corner on TL.
This thread has a huge problem with semantics. When most people talk about Gypsies they don't talk about the ethnic group but rather the culture that goes along with it.
On September 28 2011 13:48 Josealtron wrote: Stop with the "we tried to integrate them" bullshit-the hatred makes it clear that there's no desire to integrate them.
Well I agree with you that there is a certain resistance to integration among the population but you also have to see that in addition to that their culture is actively resisting integration as well. Some regents in Europe grew so frustrated with that, that they even took away their children and forbid marriage among themselves just to stop the endless cycle that lead to there current position (in the 18th century). Just to be clear: those were the wrong measurements and the failure of integration lies on both sides.
On September 28 2011 13:32 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:29 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:26 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
As has been stated many times in this thread, lower education is free. It's just the gypsies don't want to go to school, or go for a very limited period. I see you do not reply to my last reply to you. Truth hurts, huh?
Why the fuck would you want to be part of a society that spits on you? Why the fuck would you want to send your children to a school where everyone, including teachers, will treat the child like shit?
If the parent knows that everyone is going to treat your child like shit because he/she's a gypsy, the only thing the parent can do is teach a child how to survive in that world. No one will want to hire them. No one will want to give them opportunities. Stop with the "we tried to integrate them" bullshit-the hatred makes it clear that there's no desire to integrate them.
This is what the vast majority of the hateful posters don't understand. When everyone hates you for who you are, why the hell would you want to be near them? Why would you care about stealing from them, when they treat you as subhuman anyway? There's been comments referring to them as rats or similar.
And I know somebody is going to say "You're from the US, you don't understand, stfu". Attack the fucking argument, not the poster-that's something I've been seeing a lot in this thread by people too blinded to actually think rationally.
OF COURSE it's gonna look like the majority of gypsies are terrible when all you ever hear about them is shit like this. That doesn't make it true, and it doesn't come close to justifying the things some have said.
And what happened to "racist comments will result in a ban?" This shit shouldn't be allowed on this site.
I agree.
TL Mods should be banning a few ppl. I'd be happy to name names.
No banning. TL should either just close these threads ASAP or not ban. No heavily moderated discussion where "controversial" views are banned. Either have an open conversation or no conversation at all.
On September 28 2011 13:55 Bigpet wrote: This thread has a huge problem with semantics. When most people talk about Gypsies they don't talk about the ethnic group but rather the culture that goes along with it.
On September 28 2011 13:48 Josealtron wrote: Stop with the "we tried to integrate them" bullshit-the hatred makes it clear that there's no desire to integrate them.
Well I agree with you that there is a certain resistance to integration among the population but you also have to see that in addition to that there culture is actively resisting integration as well. Some regents in Europe grew so frustrated with that, that they even took away their children and forbid marriage among themselves just to stop the endless cycle that lead to there current position. Just to be clear: those were the wrong measurements and the failure of integration lies on both sides.
That's a reasonable statement, and that's what we need more of. I don't doubt what you say, but it doesn't really make what I say untrue. There's 2 sides to everything, and I have no doubt that the gypsies have made mistakes as well. It's the hatred in this thread that gets my blood boiling.
On September 28 2011 13:32 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:29 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:26 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:18 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 13:04 HereticSaint wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:57 decemberTV wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote: [quote]
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr December talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Edit: I thought December wasn't going to post anymore since it's early in the morning, guess he changed his mind...
Apparently, he doesn't like Canada very much either. Apparently if we live anywhere but where he does we are just huge morons.
Strictly because you're an american who compares "the bad part of town" with an ethnic group who has made it its culture to live off welfare, teach and force its own children to steal / beg from as little as 4~5 y old because until 13~14 years they cannot be prosecuted, across an entire continent. But yea, you know better.
You can't have it both ways, you take this stance that you know everything and I know nothing and yet you act as if I am trying to take some moral high ground. You are full of it.
But yeah, I'm sure you actually know all about gang culture in the US and more specifically the LA and Detroit areas. I'm sure you've watched documentaries about how a majority of the youth get indoctrinated into the gang culture and the parents either do nothing about it or even have a hand in it themselves because a majority of them have had some gang association in their life time.
The only halfway point you might have is that the scale is potentially smaller, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be directly compared in certain contexts and be an entirely legitimate example.
Yet in this very thread you seem to hate on Americans, Canadians and especially gypsies. Who knows, you may have even attacked other nationalities. I'm trying to read every single one of your posts though as they are riddled with hate and thinly veiled racism.
On September 28 2011 12:59 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:50 HereticSaint wrote: [quote]
Come live in South Central LA, then go live near gypsies. I'd love to hear your first hand accounts of why they aren't comparable at all.
But clearly, when Mr Decembre talked down to me strictly because I was an American or when cloud suggested executing them with terrorist methods they weren't being racist or extremist. Jesus.
Does parts of southern SD County count? Pretty bad area. Basically same as Compton but on a smaller scale. No, it is completely different than what people in this thread say about gypsies. And you don't think there are poor people in their country (but are actually a functioning part of society and grew up in it, same culture, etc.) that don't do the same shit? If you don't, then that's terrible naive.
Your comparison is best related to individuals in Bulgaria who were raised and taught as proper Bulgarians who turned to crime and who are not only a negligible percentage of Bulgarians, but whose culture completely contradicts what they do on top of that. THIS is where your comparison is reasonable. To the gypsies, completely not so.
I mean, I doubt the average Bulgarian family lives off welfare/begging/stealing and teaches their kids to do exactly that, don't want their kids to be educated, and are hellbent against being a part of society. Poor blacks are the complete opposite. I don't think those gangsta thugs' mommies are telling them to go be murderers and drug dealers and go to jail and fail in life. Quite the contrary.
I take it you have lived in Romania and Bulgaria for many years and can make that conclusion? If not, then I think the Balkan fellows in this thread have the say, not you.
Also, I don't see how DecemberTV talking to you strictly is being racist or extremist. If your parents speak to you strictly, I'm guessing you consider them racist or extremist?
Secondly... Why not give them a job so they wont be forced to steal?
Perhaps you have not been keeping up with this thread, and you obviously show you know absolutely of the situation, but a shitton has been done for them, including giving them the jobs. A ton more than giving them jobs, at that. The thing is, they don't want them. The overwhelming percentage of them don't want to be a part of society, plain and simple. They aren't forced to steal. They choose to.
My parents don't feel the need to blatantly talk down to me merely because I'm an American while at the same time acting like as if I'm attempting to take some moral high ground the second I, "step into this thread".
The parents of people in the ghettos in L.A. not only sometimes disregard their children which leads to them seeking out gangs to become a part of but many of their parents are either currently or once were in a gang and encourage this behavior. (Apparently, this is what is so infuriating about gypsies to some people). I outright refuse to believe that gypsies as a whole desire for their children to be uneducated, some of them may but not all of them.
Ah, so you haven't lived in Romania and Bulgaria for a good number of years, so you admit that the people in this thread from this countries know infinitely more than you on the subject. One point cleared.
As people in this thread have said, as many, many documentaries have said, as everyday life in those countries say, the overwhelming number of gypises don't ewant to be a part of society. They're offered everything to be a part of society, including jobs and free education and free housing, but they don't want any of it. You refuse to believe reality? Well, there goes your credibility. Yes, there are some, probably 5%, who do want to be part of society (though I'm being optimistic here, because if they wanted to be a part of society, it would be very easy as they are constantly offered to do so), but does that mean the 95% isn't well-representative of the overwhelming majority? Yes they are. Lebanon is 2/3 Muslim (a lot less than 95%), and is by and large considered a Muslim country. A second point cleared.
You refuse the irrationality of your comparison, and deny the fact that it would only be reasonable to what I described in my last post. By the same token, I'm sure there are parents of some proper Bulgarians who went awry who were indifferent. So basically, you reinforce the comparison I proposed is reasonable. A third point is cleared.
So basically, December is generally correct, and in fact, I can't blame him for "talking down to you" (if it can even be called that) when you come in with significant ignorance of anything about his country, irrationally and arrogantly make a ludicrous and terribly absurd comparison that poor blacks = gypsies (which mind you, is extremely racist to black people to say they are all like the majority of gypsies. Nice job on the racism.), and arrogantly talk as if you know the situation inside-and-out and claim the only fault is that Romanians are terrible racists of the highest-degree. You realize how foolish that is?
Now stop making us Americans look always so ignorant and dumb. We get enough shit for that.
Fully paid scholarships for 4 or more years in all the top universities in Romania are RESERVED for gipsies (as in only gipsies can apply and the spots dont go to romanians if they are not occupied). There are about 10 spots for each branch of each university and on average 1 or 2 out of 10 will be applied for.
But this is only 1 example. I would really like to know if you treat your minorities so well in the USA. ^_^;
The fact that only 1 or 2 out of the 10 are applied for should show u just how big the problem is.
Also, the fact that you dont seem to understand this also reinforces the fact that your a racist.
It is indeed a problem when a group of people are so full of themselves that they're given endless opportunity and are defiantly opposed to being a part of society because they're too special for it. Ironically, they have no problem consistently taking and stealing from it.
Helping them become educated starts at the bottom though, if you don't help them get and stay in school when they are young then you can't expect them to mystically be able to go to universities.
As has been stated many times in this thread, lower education is free. It's just the gypsies don't want to go to school, or go for a very limited period. I see you do not reply to my last reply to you. Truth hurts, huh?
Why the fuck would you want to be part of a society that spits on you? Why the fuck would you want to send your children to a school where everyone, including teachers, will treat the child like shit?
If the parent knows that everyone is going to treat your child like shit because he/she's a gypsy, the only thing the parent can do is teach a child how to survive in that world. No one will want to hire them. No one will want to give them opportunities. Stop with the "we tried to integrate them" bullshit-the hatred makes it clear that there's no desire to integrate them.
This is what the vast majority of the hateful posters don't understand. When everyone hates you for who you are, why the hell would you want to be near them? Why would you care about stealing from them, when they treat you as subhuman anyway? There's been comments referring to them as rats or similar.
And I know somebody is going to say "You're from the US, you don't understand, stfu". Attack the fucking argument, not the poster-that's something I've been seeing a lot in this thread by people too blinded to actually think rationally.
OF COURSE it's gonna look like the majority of gypsies are terrible when all you ever hear about them is shit like this. That doesn't make it true, and it doesn't come close to justifying the things some have said.
And what happened to "racist comments will result in a ban?" This shit shouldn't be allowed on this site.
I agree.
TL Mods should be banning a few ppl. I'd be happy to name names.
No banning. TL should either just close these threads ASAP or not ban. No heavily moderated discussion where "controversial" views are banned. Either have an open conversation or no conversation at all.
Go read what the Mods wrote @ top.
Racist comments = ban.
I have seen many racists statements.
Once you bring racism into a discussion its no longer productive anymore.
U can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at...
P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool".
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that.
The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads.
If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists)
Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm*
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
It might be a bit dated as it came before the recent economic struggles, and so might not be completely representative, but I doubt those could have had anything other than a negative effect on employment rates. As well, this talks about the effect of education, and if discrimination has anything to do with employment rates.
Thought it might be useful, for most everyone lacking any relevant statistics.
I still don't get it. It sounds like these guys aren't an actual race or physically distinguishable people. It sounds like they are just people who decide to be scumbags and steal/cheat/etc. How do people recognize them? People say that they aren't able to integrate into society because people always hate them, but what prevents them from just looking like everyone else?
Sorry for my ignorance, I'm just having a hard time understanding this whole issue.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality.
But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive)
This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved.
On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote: People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that.
The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads.
If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists)
Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm*
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
That's the problem. What's your solution?
As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality.
But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive)
This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved.
Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work. There are people from the gypsy community that try to better themselves, enroll in school, look for work and try to give their children a better future. They are met with ridicule, hatred and even violence, from their own peers.
U can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at...
P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool".
Pictures don't all of a sudden win you a debate...
On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote: People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that.
The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads.
If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists)
Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm*
On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
That's the problem. What's your solution?
As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality.
But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive)
This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved.
Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work.
So your response is, "We are doing everything that can be expected of us.". Putting my personal feelings that there is still discrimination going on to the extent that it would discourage them from taking advantage of those opportunities let's look at the problem then; You are giving as much help as you are willing and think you are sufficiently enough not being discriminatory, the gypsies either disagree with this or are all latent murderers and thieves by default and this has all happened over a very small amount of time evolutionary wise. Well then, the only solution is that you go to war with them, or more accurately exterminate them. At least that's what I'm taking away from your post.
People are saying, "You don't understand, you have no idea and never will, these people are just like this" and I'm going, "I find it hard to believe that there is literally no discrimination going on and yet these people who really when they are born are not much different from me or you are innately murderers and thieves and don't want to improve their position in life".
It might be a bit dated as it came before the recent economic struggles, and so might not be completely representative, but I doubt those could have had anything other than a negative effect on employment rates. As well, this talks about the effect of education, and if discrimination has anything to do with employment rates.
Thought it might be useful, for most everyone lacking any relevant statistics.
so here you go:
also read the pdf for the reasons why the gypsies themselves think that they don't get jobs. Sadly there's no statistics as to the reasons that employers give for not hiring them.
Last but not least the Conclusion of the study:
C O N C L U S I O N Roma unemployment rates are far below the 95–100 per cent levels that are often reported. Respondents often understand ‘employment’ to mean a ‘steady job’ rather than the broader notion of ‘income generating activities’. This explains why self-reported subjective unemployment rates often substantially exceed conventionally defined ones. Roma who are involved in non-wage income-generation activities, in the shadow economy or in subsistence agriculture, often describe themselves as unemployed. This is why subjective and broad unemployment rates differ substantially.
Despite extensive involvement in the informal economy, Roma households are heavily dependent on welfare payments and other central government transfers (pensions, child support, etc.). Roma youth are particularly vulnerable to unemployment. They run the risk of being permanently excluded from mainstream society and falling into the underclass. Long-term unemployment has profound, negative effects on the social fabric of Roma communities.
Poor employability is a key feature of life for the Roma. This is due to both discriminatory practices and to the low competitiveness of Roma workers. Poor educational opportunities today guarantee poor employment prospects tomorrow. Income generation projects that make use of traditional skills are unlikely to result in large reductions in unemployment.
Also the re-scaling of the graphs suggests a less than neutral position by the guys who made the study.
On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote: People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that.
The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads.
If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists)
Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm*
On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
That's the problem. What's your solution?
As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives.
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality.
But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive)
This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved.
Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work. There are people from the gypsy community that try to better themselves, enroll in school, look for work and try to give their children a better future. They are met with ridicule, hatred and even violence, from their own peers.
You still dont get it...
The fact that there are so many resources available to them yet they aren't taking advantage of it should be a clear sign that something is wrong.
U can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at...
P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool".
Pictures don't all of a sudden win you a debate...
On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote: People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that.
The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads.
If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists)
Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm*
On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
That's the problem. What's your solution?
As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives.
edit:
On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:
On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality.
But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive)
This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved.
Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work.
So your response is, "We are doing everything that can be expected of us.". Putting my personal feelings that there is still discrimination going on to the extent that it would discourage them from taking advantage of those opportunities let's look at the problem then; You are giving as much help as you are willing and think you are sufficiently enough not being discriminatory, the gypsies either disagree with this or are all latent murderers and thieves by default and this has all happened over a very small amount of time evolutionary wise. Well then, the only solution is that you go to war with them, or more accurately exterminate them. At least that's what I'm taking away from your post.
People are saying, "You don't understand, you have no idea and never will, these people are just like this" and I'm going, "I find it hard to believe that there is literally no discrimination going on and yet these people who really when they are born are not much different from me or you are innately murderers and thieves and don't want to improve their position in life".
I never inferred genetic inferiority or reccomended genocide. All I'm saying is they'll need a shift in their way of thinking. If they simply let their children attain an education the problem can be solved in a generation or less. As I said, some of them already do this and are ridiculed by their own community for their efforts. You haven't seen a gypsy woman rummage through trash while holding a baby only a few months old, I have. You haven't seen 8 or 9 year old children smoke and drink alcohol in the presence of their parents, I have. As I'm saying, even if the older population can't be swayed, giving their children an oportunity to lead a better life will fix the problem. edit to Rundra: You're the one who doesn't get it. It's not a minority that is being put down and forced to live in squalor, it's a minority that actively refuses any help given to them.
U can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at...
P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool".
Pictures don't all of a sudden win you a debate...
On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote: People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that.
The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads.
If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists)
Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm*
On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
That's the problem. What's your solution?
As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives.
edit:
On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:
On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality.
But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive)
This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved.
Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work.
So your response is, "We are doing everything that can be expected of us.". Putting my personal feelings that there is still discrimination going on to the extent that it would discourage them from taking advantage of those opportunities let's look at the problem then; You are giving as much help as you are willing and think you are sufficiently enough not being discriminatory, the gypsies either disagree with this or are all latent murderers and thieves by default and this has all happened over a very small amount of time evolutionary wise. Well then, the only solution is that you go to war with them, or more accurately exterminate them. At least that's what I'm taking away from your post.
People are saying, "You don't understand, you have no idea and never will, these people are just like this" and I'm going, "I find it hard to believe that there is literally no discrimination going on and yet these people who really when they are born are not much different from me or you are innately murderers and thieves and don't want to improve their position in life".
I never inferred genetic inferiority or reccomended genocide. All I'm saying is they'll need a shift in their way of thinking. If they simply let their children attain an education the problem can be solved in a generation or less. As I said, some of them already do this and are ridiculed by their own community for their efforts. You haven't seen a gypsy woman rummage through trash while holding a baby only a few months old, I have. You haven't seen 8 or 9 year old children smoke and drink alcohol in the presence of their parents, I have. As I'm saying, even if the older population can't be swayed, giving their children an oportunity to lead a better life will fix the problem. edit to Rundra: You're the one who doesn't get it. It's not a minority that is being put down and forced to live in squalor, it's a minority that actively refuses any help given to them.
I have seen incredibly young children smoking weed and doing even worse drugs. I'm not sure if they were 8 or 9 because I didn't exactly go up and ask them.
As for them rummaging through trash, of course they'll do that if they are impoverished. So she has a child? I realize you (at least supposedly, I trust you, just saying) are giving them opportunities, but for some reason they don't think this is going to lead them to living a healthier, happier life (Unless we want to believe they are all stupid), which means either A) There is a load of discrimination going on which makes them avoid the help or B) Past transgressions from people directed towards gypsies means they distrust you and means you may need to go further than you want to fix the problem.
Yes, the children deserve a better opportunity, stealing the children away isn't exactly an ideal solution, especially when they can just have more if they are doing it for the money. Obviously there has to be a mutual understanding that can be reached. If you come to them and immediately start looking at them as if they are stupid for not accepting your charity (especially if there's discrimination going on, or reason for distrust) or look at them as murderers or thieves of course you wont reach a positive solution.
U can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at...
P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool".
Pictures don't all of a sudden win you a debate...
On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote: People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that.
The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads.
If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists)
Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm*
On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
That's the problem. What's your solution?
As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives.
edit:
On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:
On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality.
But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive)
This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved.
Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work.
So your response is, "We are doing everything that can be expected of us.". Putting my personal feelings that there is still discrimination going on to the extent that it would discourage them from taking advantage of those opportunities let's look at the problem then; You are giving as much help as you are willing and think you are sufficiently enough not being discriminatory, the gypsies either disagree with this or are all latent murderers and thieves by default and this has all happened over a very small amount of time evolutionary wise. Well then, the only solution is that you go to war with them, or more accurately exterminate them. At least that's what I'm taking away from your post.
People are saying, "You don't understand, you have no idea and never will, these people are just like this" and I'm going, "I find it hard to believe that there is literally no discrimination going on and yet these people who really when they are born are not much different from me or you are innately murderers and thieves and don't want to improve their position in life".
I never inferred genetic inferiority or reccomended genocide. All I'm saying is they'll need a shift in their way of thinking. If they simply let their children attain an education the problem can be solved in a generation or less. As I said, some of them already do this and are ridiculed by their own community for their efforts. You haven't seen a gypsy woman rummage through trash while holding a baby only a few months old, I have. You haven't seen 8 or 9 year old children smoke and drink alcohol in the presence of their parents, I have. As I'm saying, even if the older population can't be swayed, giving their children an oportunity to lead a better life will fix the problem. edit to Rundra: You're the one who doesn't get it. It's not a minority that is being put down and forced to live in squalor, it's a minority that actively refuses any help given to them.
I have seen incredibly young children smoking weed and doing even worse drugs. I'm not sure if they were 8 or 9 because I didn't exactly go up and ask them.
As for them rummaging through trash, of course they'll do that if they are impoverished. So she has a child? I realize you (at least supposedly, I trust you, just saying) are giving them opportunities, but for some reason they don't think this is going to lead them to living a healthier, happier life (Unless we want to believe they are all stupid), which means either A) There is a load of discrimination going on which makes them avoid the help or B) Past transgressions from people directed towards gypsies means they distrust you and means you may need to go further than you want to fix the problem.
Yes, the children deserve a better opportunity, stealing the children away isn't exactly an ideal solution, especially when they can just have more if they are doing it for the money. Obviously there has to be a mutual understanding that can be reached. If you come to them and immediately start looking at them as if they are stupid for not accepting your charity (especially if there's discrimination going on, or reason for distrust) or look at them as murderers or thieves of course you wont reach a positive solution.
If they distrust us so much why not refuse welfare and free housing as well? Why is school the only area they don't wish to participate in if the issue is trust? As I already said, many minorities live in our area, even the ones that come from undeveloped parts of the Balkan peninsula find a way to earn their keep and give their children the oportunity to thrive. A good example would be ice cream shops and fast food joints, many of wich are owned and operated by minorities that came from areas that were neglected in ex-Yugoslavia. They do the best they can and give their children oportunities to do even better.
Unfortunately, europeans feel justified in their hate of gypsies. To put into perspective, the romanian word for 'gypsy' is used interchangeably for the word 'nigger' (it was once upon a time, dunno about now). Considering individual experiences with them, this is understandable - I'm romanian myself and last time my mum went to visit her home town (first time back in 20-25 years) she was sitting in a cafe and a young gypsy child came up to her and asked her for some money. The shopkeeper made the kid piss off, those kind aren't allowed in places where respectable citizens eat. My mum wouldn't give him money because she's not a moron, but bought him a cake or sandwich or some shit: as soon as he got it he went down the road and gave it to his uncle or whoever was making the kid go out begging. This is the experience most people in europe have with gypsies.
The thing is, in australia, the indigenous population is in much the same situation as a result of decades of institutionalised racism (e.g. they only received the right to vote in the 70s and 80s). The implicit public view of aborigines is that they are criminal scum living off welfare handouts, wrecking whatever housing and facilities are provided for them, the same case of rejecting help that the europeans in this thread are citing (here, any aborigine that wants to enter higher education can do so for free and with no limits on entry ie. previous schooling, guess how many take that offer up?).
It is only recently that public consciousness has begun to acknowledge that the reason for this is not their race, but their position of disadvantage throughout history that has affected them so severely it is nearly part of their cultural psyche. Until this happens in europe, we will continue to see comments like 'you just don't understand or haven't met gypsies'. Do you know what gypsies are like in australia? They are normal people since they are removed from their shanty towns and godfathers and whatnot, and also removed from public prejudice since australians don't know anything about cultures overseas and never had a reason to hate on them.
Sorry for longwinded post, my dad grew up in bucharest around a lot of gypsies even ending up learning much of the language, and he found that if he showed them respect, they would do the same.
Some points that I think were missed or not touched enough:
1. This whole thing was a media farse by Murdok's bTV media which is the biggest media in Bulgaria. It was blown out of proportion by a journalist(M. Benatova) who did a live report and basicly lied about what happend 1st night of the protests. Which in turn sparkled the biggest racist shitstorm Ive seen in Bulgaria. Cheap sensations! - thats bTV's motto.
2. Bulgarians are very racist people. Integration of gypsies is impossible at this moment as it were impossible in the last 100 years. Our politicians are using the term to throw dust in EU's eyes, like any of them care.
3. Kiril Rashkov aka Tzar Kiro is one of the most famous criminal outlaws in Bulgaria for the last 15 years. He has the local police on a payroll and doesnt give much of a shit about law. Funny thing is since hes controlling quite a big numbers of voters - our politicians really like to suck it up to him. Protests or not hes not gonna move out of that village.
U can try to reach some results with just googling few words. You'll get the major picture. Gypsies have been subsidized during the years with money, buildings, and many other things and opportunities... they just can't fit into any adequate democratic system. They need a king (or some kind of tyrant) who make them do the right things with HUGE restrictions so they don't expand and do the mess they are good at...
P.S. That's not racism. It's just the truth. If you call the truth racist then the problem is in you and only you for being blind or just trying to act "cool".
Pictures don't all of a sudden win you a debate...
On September 28 2011 14:09 HereticSaint wrote: People need to let the mods do what they do, this isn't the thread for that.
The thread itself can lead to inflamatory remarks back and forth, but so can a lot of threads on TL. That doesn't mean it should instantly be locked before it has a chance to become a decent discussion. There will always be people who take things to far and those people need to be handled separately from the thread, otherwise we might as well not even be able to create threads.
If anything the thread should refocus on how to integrate gypsies into native populations and in order to do that how to reduce the negative discrimination associated with them which needs to be taught to not only the general population as a whole but especially the children who aren't gypsies so as to encourage the ones who do go to school to enjoy it as an experience which once again will have a trickle down effect. Guess what happens? Gypsies become valuable members of society, everyone should be happy then. (Except the racists)
Is it going to be immediate? No. Is it going to be easy? No. Will it potentially have speed bumps and need to be reworked and potentially pressured on one side or another? Yes. But for the greater good in the end it needs to be done, unless people really believe that exterminating the gypsies or sending them off to an island is the proper response... in which case *facepalm*
On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
That's the problem. What's your solution?
As I wrote, work is done to help them. They refuse it. As has been stated in this thread multiple times, most gypsy children are pulled out of school at age 9 or 10 by their parents. This is the problem, the western world has become so PC that pointing out an obvious flaw of someone is immediately seen as racist and primitive. First hand experience, communal waste disposal. Every time we have it, a fleet of gypsies in vans come rummage through trash looking for metal, they bring their children, as young as 6, to help them instead of taking them to school. Also information I already posted, schools are being set up near large gypsy populations and teachers go door to door practicaly begging the parents to enroll their children. We have done our part, now it's their turn to end the vicious cycle and give their children an oportunity to live normal lives.
edit:
On September 28 2011 14:16 Josealtron wrote:
On September 28 2011 14:08 m00nchile wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:51 RudrA wrote:
On September 28 2011 12:46 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: The saddest thing about this thread (after a couple of Cloud's comments) is that Americans with no idea about what goes on in that part of the world are attempting to compare minorities in the US to gypsies and saying there's nothing different and there is no problem except those people in Bulgaria, Romania, etc. are a bunch of racists. The reality is they (gypsies and US minorities) are completely incomparable. A few gangsta thugs from a people well-integrated into American society, who know only American culture, who generally do something for society, don't arrogantly and defiantly separate themselves, and don't make welfare, robbery, and begging how the overwhelming majority of them make a living, is completely opposite from what people in this thread have described. In fact, the complete irrationality of such comparisons topped by arrogant determination that they are completely correct shames me a bit that I proudly display my country next to my username.
Poor blacks in US cities != gypsies. Completely incomparable in nearly all manners, except for a few thugs that are entirely negligible compared to the entire population of blacks, and even then, I'm not so sure.
Unless there is some huge conspiracy that everyone in Europe who has dealt or lived with gypsies are terrible racists, I think the people from the Balkans in this thread are speaking more reasonably than not.
On top of that, I'm quite certain that Romanians, Bulgarians, and other southern European people know what goes on in their country better than we Americans do, not NA Internet heroes who probably have never heard of these countries outside of some random class lecture.
Again, you are generalizing the entire gypsies people.
And PLEASE dont tell me that because im from NA I can't understand the situation.
Read up on the persecution of gypsies in Europe.
No one will give them a job or any opportunities. Because of this they are forced to live the way they are.
Look at the attitude of ppl in this thread. Do you think any of them will hire a gypsie?
Of course noone would hire a gypsy. Is that racist? You tell me, would you hire a person who can't read or write, lives in squalor and rummages through trash for a living, keeps children out of school and uses them as nothing more than welfare checks, begging tools and teaches them stealing? Europe is a vast multicultural melting pot. My country in particular has pretty large populations from all ex-Yugoslavia republics. Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, Macedonians, Albanians. Why did they come to our country? Because the war of '91 hurt Slovenia the least (only 2 weeks of low scale border scrmishes, no damage to infrastructure), so job oportunities were better here. Even the ones that came from less developed parts and lack education find work, everyone sends their children to school. Gypsies do not, even though work is done to help them in the form of free housing (that they demolish through neglect), welfare and encouragement to send their kids to school.
This, right here, is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. People are assuming that being a gypsy=automatically one of these people. That's incredibly racist, but it does explain why no one would hire a gypsy-because people have that mentality.
But, just for kicks, lets say that 95% of gypsies actually do these things(though I'm willing to bet it's much lower). There's a reason for everything, including this behavior. Society's hatred towards gypsies pushes them into a position where they're forced to steal to survive-going to school means mass discrimination from students/teachers there, no school=no job(not that they would hire you anyway, because you're a gypsy and therefore automatically terrible)=homeless=forced to do whatever it takes to survive. This is all they know, because hatred and discrimination has pushed them into this position. This goes back to what I said earlier with parents teaching their kids this so that they'll survive(which is ultimately, the main thing a parent must teach their child-how to survive)
This is a complicated issue. But as long as the hatred remains, it can never be solved.
Oh for fucks sake. Read the thread before getting on your high horse. If the issue was racism we'd have a much larger problem on our hands as noone from ex-yugoslavia could get work and be beaten on a regular basis. They choose to ignore the help that's being offered and they choose to not let their children lead a better life than them. Also information already posted, 2001 and 2006 romanian census showed 90+% of gypsy population as unemployed and not looking for work.
So your response is, "We are doing everything that can be expected of us.". Putting my personal feelings that there is still discrimination going on to the extent that it would discourage them from taking advantage of those opportunities let's look at the problem then; You are giving as much help as you are willing and think you are sufficiently enough not being discriminatory, the gypsies either disagree with this or are all latent murderers and thieves by default and this has all happened over a very small amount of time evolutionary wise. Well then, the only solution is that you go to war with them, or more accurately exterminate them. At least that's what I'm taking away from your post.
People are saying, "You don't understand, you have no idea and never will, these people are just like this" and I'm going, "I find it hard to believe that there is literally no discrimination going on and yet these people who really when they are born are not much different from me or you are innately murderers and thieves and don't want to improve their position in life".
I never inferred genetic inferiority or reccomended genocide. All I'm saying is they'll need a shift in their way of thinking. If they simply let their children attain an education the problem can be solved in a generation or less. As I said, some of them already do this and are ridiculed by their own community for their efforts. You haven't seen a gypsy woman rummage through trash while holding a baby only a few months old, I have. You haven't seen 8 or 9 year old children smoke and drink alcohol in the presence of their parents, I have. As I'm saying, even if the older population can't be swayed, giving their children an oportunity to lead a better life will fix the problem. edit to Rundra: You're the one who doesn't get it. It's not a minority that is being put down and forced to live in squalor, it's a minority that actively refuses any help given to them.
I have seen incredibly young children smoking weed and doing even worse drugs. I'm not sure if they were 8 or 9 because I didn't exactly go up and ask them.
As for them rummaging through trash, of course they'll do that if they are impoverished. So she has a child? I realize you (at least supposedly, I trust you, just saying) are giving them opportunities, but for some reason they don't think this is going to lead them to living a healthier, happier life (Unless we want to believe they are all stupid), which means either A) There is a load of discrimination going on which makes them avoid the help or B) Past transgressions from people directed towards gypsies means they distrust you and means you may need to go further than you want to fix the problem.
Yes, the children deserve a better opportunity, stealing the children away isn't exactly an ideal solution, especially when they can just have more if they are doing it for the money. Obviously there has to be a mutual understanding that can be reached. If you come to them and immediately start looking at them as if they are stupid for not accepting your charity (especially if there's discrimination going on, or reason for distrust) or look at them as murderers or thieves of course you wont reach a positive solution.
If they distrust us so much why not refuse welfare and free housing as well? Why is school the only area they don't wish to participate in if the issue is trust? As I already said, many minorities live in our area, even the ones that come from undeveloped parts of the Balkan peninsula find a way to earn their keep and give their children the oportunity to thrive. A good example would be ice cream shops and fast food joints, many of wich are owned and operated by minorities that came from areas that were neglected in ex-Yugoslavia. They do the best they can and give their children oportunities to do even better.
Well, by your words they also don't want to work (At least in the sense of a conventional job), so schooling isn't the only area, "they neglect". Accepting welfare and sending your child to a schooling system that will direct hate and other discriminatory feeling towards, potentially to the extent that your child isn't even able to learn properly is another story. Keep in mind, even if things are improving today they may still have that past in their memory. It isn't their job to make themselves trust you, it's your job to facilitate that, at least if you want to coexist peacefully.
Remember, if they were in the exact same position and weren't accepting that welfare they wouldn't all magically obtain jobs, if everyone thinks the theft and murder is bad now then it could only get much worse if that was there only option to obtain food to exist. That or starve. Yes, some of them would potentially get jobs, but given the exact same situation a majority of them wouldn't.
You have to keep in mind that the gypsies are the gypsies and not anyone else, maybe other minorities have had similar experiences but keep in mind that gypsies associated amongst themselves likely more than they did with other people and therefore if there was a negative view of the outside world that very easily could have been perpetuated. That view needs to be fixed.
On September 28 2011 11:08 Gremlin wrote: Ok... I'll tell u a story. It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
First of all i don't even know where exactly Katunica is. I live in southern Sofia, Borovo namely, which most ppl say is another world existing outside Sofia and even Bulgaria. It's an upper-middle class district as the US guys would say. We don't have gypsies here, we don't have riots and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago a gypsy family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole clan, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge fires, burning tires and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning tires at least. The answer was: "Make me!". In a month the situation got quite arduous, they were forming a real "geto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these gypsies, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
Okay now I tell You a story.
It's a short one so bare with me and it's related i promise.
So I live in this upper-middle class district as us US guys often say. We don't have blacks here, we don't have crime and the whole thing's more like a news-story than real event. You know something you hear over the radio while you drive to work.
So here comes the story. Few months ago an african family did move in nearby. Nobody reacted. It's money and being polite to others that counts here not origin. Soon enough the family became whole tribe, they were like 20 ppl living in a small house. We didn't react on that either. Culture, you know, none of our business by far. Then they started making these huge bbqs, cooking cows and all. That smells and it smells like hell. They were walking down the street calling each other names, gee i've never heard a mother calling her own 9yo kid "bastard" or "whore" before. We talked to them, asked them to stop burning shit at least. The answer was: "Bitch please.". In a month the situation got quite serious, they were forming a real "ghetto" right there in that small house. We had to do something and do it fast, so the whole community signed a declaration demanding the municipality mayor to evict them. It worked, in few days the police came and so we got rid of them.
Now we didn't make a party or something, most of us, incl. me, felt kinda guilty for being the reason these ppl to lose their home. It came out they moved in illegally, but yet chasing ppl isn't something to be proud of. But also we were relieved.
I didn't hate these n..rs, i didn't care about them, they didn't steal anything or some such. However if they were at least a little bit tolerant towards our lifestyle there wouldn't be any problem.
The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
Ok well all of that I completely agree with pretty much 100 percent. I think this topic took a REAL bad turn when Cloud took the dump of his life all over it.
I forgot to add that French / Dutch / British / Italian and Spanish gorvenments have also been helpless in solving the problem. In fact the French government DEPORTED gipsies back to Romania / Bulgaria by airplane instead of "integrating them into society".
Dunno if airplanes come off as fancy to you, but that's how you deport people.. You don't exactly put them at the closest border and hope they don't come back. Deportation is legio when illegal immigrants are considered not having enough reason to flee their homeland, as it's not illegal to deport economic immigrants in contrast to polotic ones.
About the France example. The deportations have been called a disgrace by the EU, and it's been said that legal action will be taken against France. The camps were indeed illegal though.
Personally I think that all the hate the romanis have recieved the 700 years or so have shaped them somewhat to be more aggressive towards society. The enslavement of Africans went on for 200 years or so, whereas the enslavement of Romas went on for more than three times that, and yet there was basically no attempt of apologizing. To me it's fucking disgusting that some (and I literally feel filthy for living on the same continent as these people) seem to see it fit that romanis are victims of further prosecution.
If only you would at least take the time to read what i've written. And you should be ashamed of yourself that as a EU citizen and with Sweden a full member of the EU for so long you have no idea that EU citizens cannot be forcefully moved under ANY circumstances since they are not immigrants within EU borders. The french ended up paying off all the gipsies with their own money so they will never be legal action against france and nor was it "illegal on paper". They would not be so dumb.
But the most i am surprised by your lack of knowledge on how the EU works. Sweden has been a member state for alot longer than Romania / Bulgaria; they really should teach you this stuff in schools.
That's what you read from that? That's.. interesting.. See I was talking about the age old prosecution of Romas, and how they deserve better lives than they have now. It's interesting that after ww2 antisemetism got extremely tabu, and the jewish population got a new country on top of an existing one as an apology or something along those lines, and the Roma people got forced sterilization by governments in Eastern Europe.
The membership of Sweden in the EU is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. FYI I was practically finished with school when this law was passed, and there are tonnes of loops holes around it regardless. Also the EU has never been too popular here (52% vote), so it's not like most people are too interested anyway.
About the French case you are obviously clueless. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11301307 It was illegal because the EU values a 0 tolerance to racism (something someone with your extentive knowledge of the EU should take a serious look into).
This will be my last post here as this is simply too saddening for me to read.
Edit: I don't understand the argument of them not being educated. Isn't it illegal not to go to school from atleast ages 7-15 in all first world countries?
So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way?
My uncle here in Sweden used to own a petrol station and he told me that everytime a gypsy woman and her children went into the store the whole personel would have to keep an eye on them, most of the time things were missing anyway, gypsys are expert shoplifters.
He got to know a gypsy that had broken out of the gypsy community and was selling cars, he told my uncle 99% of all gypsys were not to be trusted.
Unfortunatley he was shot to death by another gypsy family outside a hotell, it was quite a commotion when it happened as things like that is'nt that common around here.
On September 28 2011 15:48 BronzeHero wrote: My uncle here in Sweden used to own a petrol station and he told me that everytime a gypsy woman and her children went into the store the whole personel would have to keep an eye on them, most of the time things were missing anyway, gypsys are expert shoplifters.
He got to know a gypsy that had broken out of the gypsy community and was selling cars, he told my uncle 99% of all gypsys were not to be trusted.
Unfortunatley he was shot to death by another gypsy family outside a hotell, it was quite a commotion when it happened as things like that is'nt that common around here.
As I said, the people who try to lead a different and better life are met with hatred and sometimes even violence from their own community. It's just more proof that the mentality shift needs to occur in the gypsy community, we already dish out plenty of help.
On September 28 2011 08:12 Orcasgt24 wrote: Jeasus fucking christ. I thought Americans were the most racist people on earth, I am grossly mistaken. Europeans acctually belive that Gypsies are an inerior breed of human and treat them like crap. I only read the first 3 pages and every single euro poster should be banned based on the warning.
The gypsie problem? What problem? The one where you treat a group of people like crap for 500 years and now you wanna get rid of them? The problem is you. Maybe if they had a chance to live normally noone would care.
I wanted to stay of this thread, but couldnt handle myself, because of posts like this.
We treat gypsies like crap? Here are few things our country has made for them through the years :
- absolutely free education, high school and university. FREE. the percent of gypsies finished high school is maybe 3-4%.
- free medical care. FREE. Every month there are hepatitis A epidemies in their ghetos.
- free land to build houses, or even build them apartment buildings to live in. Here is what is left of it after few years :
- social programs especialy made for their ethnic group which sole purpose is to find them work
etc, etc.
No one has treated them like crap, but exactly the opposite for soooooo many years. There is no one rather than us Bulgarians who wants more these people to integrate, but its impossible.
On September 28 2011 15:43 Takezou wrote: So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way?
No, this is what an immigration problem looks like after integration failed for centuries. There are no easy solutions anymore.
On September 28 2011 15:43 Takezou wrote: So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way?
No, this is what an immigration problem looks like after integration failed for centuries. There are no easy solutions anymore.
Are you claiming that for centuries the Gypsies were treated well and yet did not integrate?
Or is it that Gypsies fro centuries faced the same bigotry that so many Europeans show towards them in this thread.
On September 28 2011 15:43 Takezou wrote: So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way?
No, this is what an immigration problem looks like after integration failed for centuries. There are no easy solutions anymore.
Are you claiming that for centuries the Gypsies were treated well and yet did not integrate?
Slightly off-topic, but I find it funny that every poster who goes "IF I MADE A COMPARISON LIKE THIS TO BLACKS/MEXICANS/ASIANS I WOULD BE BANNED FOR RACISM" always leaves off whites. Have we finally hit that beautiful stage where being racist to white people is cool because those damn crackers have always been racist in the past? (They probably had slaves too!)
On September 28 2011 14:57 sandg wrote: Unfortunately, europeans feel justified in their hate of gypsies. To put into perspective, the romanian word for 'gypsy' is used interchangeably for the word 'nigger' (it was once upon a time, dunno about now). Considering individual experiences with them, this is understandable - I'm romanian myself and last time my mum went to visit her home town (first time back in 20-25 years) she was sitting in a cafe and a young gypsy child came up to her and asked her for some money. The shopkeeper made the kid piss off, those kind aren't allowed in places where respectable citizens eat. My mum wouldn't give him money because she's not a moron, but bought him a cake or sandwich or some shit: as soon as he got it he went down the road and gave it to his uncle or whoever was making the kid go out begging. This is the experience most people in europe have with gypsies.
The thing is, in australia, the indigenous population is in much the same situation as a result of decades of institutionalised racism (e.g. they only received the right to vote in the 70s and 80s). The implicit public view of aborigines is that they are criminal scum living off welfare handouts, wrecking whatever housing and facilities are provided for them, the same case of rejecting help that the europeans in this thread are citing (here, any aborigine that wants to enter higher education can do so for free and with no limits on entry ie. previous schooling, guess how many take that offer up?).
It is only recently that public consciousness has begun to acknowledge that the reason for this is not their race, but their position of disadvantage throughout history that has affected them so severely it is nearly part of their cultural psyche. Until this happens in europe, we will continue to see comments like 'you just don't understand or haven't met gypsies'. Do you know what gypsies are like in australia? They are normal people since they are removed from their shanty towns and godfathers and whatnot, and also removed from public prejudice since australians don't know anything about cultures overseas and never had a reason to hate on them.
Sorry for longwinded post, my dad grew up in bucharest around a lot of gypsies even ending up learning much of the language, and he found that if he showed them respect, they would do the same.
This is very true, but even the most racist/bigot commenters in this thread would probably agree that Romani people would be able to live a normal life if given a fresh start in a country like Australia. Unfortunately, the conditions in their home countries that have been established in centuries are not easily erased, not even by massive social engineering. It's not just a matter of getting rid of prejudices.
On September 28 2011 15:43 Takezou wrote: So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way?
No, this is what an immigration problem looks like after integration failed for centuries. There are no easy solutions anymore.
Are you claiming that for centuries the Gypsies were treated well and yet did not integrate?
Or is it that Gypsies fro centuries faced the same bigotry that so many Europeans show towards them in this thread.
I find the idea strange to evaluate historical developments that happened centuries ago based on modern concepts, and it will help noone to assign blame to a particular group.
On September 28 2011 14:57 sandg wrote: Unfortunately, europeans feel justified in their hate of gypsies. To put into perspective, the romanian word for 'gypsy' is used interchangeably for the word 'nigger' (it was once upon a time, dunno about now). Considering individual experiences with them, this is understandable - I'm romanian myself and last time my mum went to visit her home town (first time back in 20-25 years) she was sitting in a cafe and a young gypsy child came up to her and asked her for some money. The shopkeeper made the kid piss off, those kind aren't allowed in places where respectable citizens eat. My mum wouldn't give him money because she's not a moron, but bought him a cake or sandwich or some shit: as soon as he got it he went down the road and gave it to his uncle or whoever was making the kid go out begging. This is the experience most people in europe have with gypsies.
The thing is, in australia, the indigenous population is in much the same situation as a result of decades of institutionalised racism (e.g. they only received the right to vote in the 70s and 80s). The implicit public view of aborigines is that they are criminal scum living off welfare handouts, wrecking whatever housing and facilities are provided for them, the same case of rejecting help that the europeans in this thread are citing (here, any aborigine that wants to enter higher education can do so for free and with no limits on entry ie. previous schooling, guess how many take that offer up?).
It is only recently that public consciousness has begun to acknowledge that the reason for this is not their race, but their position of disadvantage throughout history that has affected them so severely it is nearly part of their cultural psyche. Until this happens in europe, we will continue to see comments like 'you just don't understand or haven't met gypsies'. Do you know what gypsies are like in australia? They are normal people since they are removed from their shanty towns and godfathers and whatnot, and also removed from public prejudice since australians don't know anything about cultures overseas and never had a reason to hate on them.
Sorry for longwinded post, my dad grew up in bucharest around a lot of gypsies even ending up learning much of the language, and he found that if he showed them respect, they would do the same.
This is very true, but even the most racist/bigot commenters in this thread would probably agree that Romani people would be able to live a normal life if given a fresh start in a country like Australia. Unfortunately, the conditions in their home countries that have been established in centuries are not easily erased, not even by massive social engineering. It's not just a matter of getting rid of prejudices.
Also, the main reason gypsies can prosper if they emigrate to a far away land is beacause they don't do so en masse. The main reason this problem exists is that the gypsy community is set in their ways and treat the ones that want to better themselves with ridicule, hatred and sometimes even violence. If they come into a community that doesn't lash out at them because they send their children to school and find a job results will of course be very beneficial. This is the main point we try to illustrate, unwillingness to change and dragging the next generation into the same lifestyle. And for the record, I never stated in this thread that they are geneticaly inferior or that they should be deported (just shifting the problem elswhere) or eradicated and I have condemned such comments because they bring nothing to the discussion and reinforce the view of others that we're racist or bigoted when we just don't want a harmfull element in our society and that we're actively trying to better the situation for these people, but are met with non-cooperation.
On September 28 2011 16:18 SevenBunnies wrote: Slightly off-topic, but I find it funny that every poster who goes "IF I MADE A COMPARISON LIKE THIS TO BLACKS/MEXICANS/ASIANS I WOULD BE BANNED FOR RACISM" always leaves off whites. Have we finally hit that beautiful stage where being racist to white people is cool because those damn crackers have always been racist in the past? (They probably had slaves too!)
Probably because whites are rarely discriminated against compared to the others in most western societies, with the exception of the dying affirmative action and ability to qualify for certain scholarships/educational benefits.
On September 28 2011 16:18 SevenBunnies wrote: Slightly off-topic, but I find it funny that every poster who goes "IF I MADE A COMPARISON LIKE THIS TO BLACKS/MEXICANS/ASIANS I WOULD BE BANNED FOR RACISM" always leaves off whites. Have we finally hit that beautiful stage where being racist to white people is cool because those damn crackers have always been racist in the past? (They probably had slaves too!)
Whites have been the dominant group and thus when discrimination has typically happened it has been against blacks/asians etc not whites. Your comment just comes of as ignorant at best.
I love the broad generalizations in this thread. It's funny. Question, why is the USA not a possible participant in conversation? Are only eastern European gypsies all bad? I'm sorry, 99%*** of them, that's right. What about Americas 100k + gypsy population (unofficially as high as 1 million)? Are we to ignore the fact that most Americans aren't even aware of them, yet they are all criminals that everyone who comes in contact with remembers as such?
I guess since we don't have the same kind of problem with them, that our input doesn't count. I get it. As for solutions, there are no easy ones. You don't just give people things and expect obedience to you. I am not one to blame past circumstances, but looking at their history, it is easy to see why they don't integrate as willingly as others.
On September 28 2011 15:43 Takezou wrote: So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way?
No, this is what an immigration problem looks like after integration failed for centuries. There are no easy solutions anymore.
Are you claiming that for centuries the Gypsies were treated well and yet did not integrate?
Or is it that Gypsies fro centuries faced the same bigotry that so many Europeans show towards them in this thread.
I find the idea strange to evaluate historical developments that happened centuries ago based on modern concepts, and it will help noone to assign blame to a particular group.
Fair enough but you did assign blame to the gypsies earlier and so do most Europeans in this thread.
On September 28 2011 15:43 Takezou wrote: So in some ways Gypsies have been for generations institutionalized as second rate citizens/humans and their lack of ability to break out of that mold is seen as a reason to keep them that way?
No, this is what an immigration problem looks like after integration failed for centuries. There are no easy solutions anymore.
Are you claiming that for centuries the Gypsies were treated well and yet did not integrate?
Or is it that Gypsies fro centuries faced the same bigotry that so many Europeans show towards them in this thread.
I find the idea strange to evaluate historical developments that happened centuries ago based on modern concepts, and it will help noone to assign blame to a particular group.
Fair enough but you did assign blame to the gypsies earlier and so do most Europeans in this thread.
The biggest problem of those gypsies are that they don't give a s**t about the others. They don't pay the bills for water,electricity etc.. The make a lot of children to take money from the country.( For a child they take about 50-100 lv = 30-60 $, and they have minimum 3)Yet, in front of every camera of the televisions they still say how poor they are (yet i have seen gypsies with mercedes and BMW) and how everybody is rude to them. And that's a huge lie.Those gypsies often fight,rape and steal. Sometimes they even kill. And i really hate them. Now, there are a lot of riots and i am one of them and i support them. I won't really say what i want to happen to the gypsies,because i will get banned. And the biggest problem is that the country actually want a certain number of gypsies to live in the country, because with them the politicians win their political campaigns (the gypsies (who are minimum 450 000 people) sell their votes for about 20 lv = 10 euro = about 15 $)
On September 28 2011 16:49 Sherlock. wrote: The biggest problem of those gypsies are that they don't give a s**t about the others. They don't pay the bills for water,electricity etc.. The make a lot of children to take money from the country.( For a child they take about 50-100 lv = 30-60 $, and they have minimum 3)Yet, in front of every camera of the televisions they still say how poor they are (yet i have seen gypsies with mercedes and BMW) and how everybody is rude to them. And that's a huge lie.Those gypsies often fight,rape and steal. Sometimes they even kill. And i really hate them. Now, there are a lot of riots and i am one of them and i support them. I won't really say what i want to happen to the gypsies,because i will get banned. And the biggest problem is that the country actually want a certain number of gypsies to live in the country, because with them the politicians win their political campaigns (the gypsies (who are minimum 450 000 people) sell their votes for about 20 lv = 10 euro = about 15 $)
You sound like a member of the KKK talking about black people. Just saying
Centuries ago?! The afroamericans have been slaves like what..? a century ago? Do they integrate in the system? Do they go to school? No minority.. almost everyone. There have always been racism and always be, towards black, yello, white, whatever ppl around the world.
That has nothing to do with the current issue.
I told u. Just google for pics with the words "цигани в България" (gypsies in Bulgaria). And imagine this is the way it is not beacause of racism or anything else. It's just because this part of the society is like trash. (I don't want to be understanded wrong) When u go to the garbage and u see 1t of trash there will be few things which can be useful or just left there cause they have something to substitute them. But overall everything is trash... METAPHORE don't attack me for the strong words.
Some1 asked if it has been better with the communism/socialism or whatever u would call it. - For this particular issue - YES. Just because in such political system you've got strong control and hard restrictions for those who don't obey the general. And such things as "not going to school, thieving, breaking, drug usage and abusing everything" are just not possible. Or if they are done... they won't be done by the same person ever again.
On September 28 2011 16:49 Sherlock. wrote: The biggest problem of those gypsies are that they don't give a s**t about the others. They don't pay the bills for water,electricity etc.. The make a lot of children to take money from the country.( For a child they take about 50-100 lv = 30-60 $, and they have minimum 3)Yet, in front of every camera of the televisions they still say how poor they are (yet i have seen gypsies with mercedes and BMW) and how everybody is rude to them. And that's a huge lie.Those gypsies often fight,rape and steal. Sometimes they even kill. And i really hate them. Now, there are a lot of riots and i am one of them and i support them. I won't really say what i want to happen to the gypsies,because i will get banned. And the biggest problem is that the country actually want a certain number of gypsies to live in the country, because with them the politicians win their political campaigns (the gypsies (who are minimum 450 000 people) sell their votes for about 20 lv = 10 euro = about 15 $)
You sound like a member of the KKK talking about black people. Just saying
Yes he sounds like that. But the problem is that the local government and etc are too weak to do anything. And in fact that's the result and 95% of these words are truth. (ok 80% xd)
On September 28 2011 16:49 Sherlock. wrote: The biggest problem of those gypsies are that they don't give a s**t about the others. They don't pay the bills for water,electricity etc.. The make a lot of children to take money from the country.( For a child they take about 50-100 lv = 30-60 $, and they have minimum 3)Yet, in front of every camera of the televisions they still say how poor they are (yet i have seen gypsies with mercedes and BMW) and how everybody is rude to them. And that's a huge lie.Those gypsies often fight,rape and steal. Sometimes they even kill. And i really hate them. Now, there are a lot of riots and i am one of them and i support them. I won't really say what i want to happen to the gypsies,because i will get banned. And the biggest problem is that the country actually want a certain number of gypsies to live in the country, because with them the politicians win their political campaigns (the gypsies (who are minimum 450 000 people) sell their votes for about 20 lv = 10 euro = about 15 $)
You sound like a member of the KKK talking about black people. Just saying
No, i am not a member of the KKK.What i said is actually the reallity.Ask other people of bulgaria and they will say the same.
On September 28 2011 17:01 dp wrote: You guys love to keep the percentages in the the 90s. 95% of gypsy steal. 95% of that sentence is true. etc etc. etc.
96.9% of the 99.9% of the statistics on the internet are 99.9% made up.
On September 28 2011 17:01 dp wrote: You guys love to keep the percentages in the the 90s. 95% of gypsy steal. 95% of that sentence is true. etc etc. etc.
yeah, in some of their "tribes" its 100%. For example the "Kardarsashi Tribe" which is the biggest part of the gypsy population, the mothers teach all their children to steal from very young age. Its not because, they are bad people, or bad race, but its their culture, its their tradition, its their way of life, its their way of making a living - by stealing.
On September 28 2011 16:59 Sherlock. wrote: No, i am not a member of the KKK.What i said is actually the reallity.Ask other people of bulgaria and they will say the same.
I never said you were a KKK member. I said you sounded like a KKK member that was talking about black people.
I told u. Just google for pics with the words "цигани в България" (gypsies in Bulgaria). And imagine this is the way it is not beacause of racism or anything else. It's just because this part of the society is like trash. (I don't want to be understanded wrong) When u go to the garbage and u see 1t of trash there will be few things which can be useful or just left there cause they have something to substitute them. But overall everything is trash... METAPHORE don't attack me for the strong words.
Yes but the fact is it is racism, because you assume they are trash because of race. In reality they are no different from white trash junkie scumbags that we see on our streets, assaulting and raping people. No one cries about them because that's just regular crime committed by white trash (here we have a lot of white trash scum, I'm sure it's the same in the US). But when these acts are performed by a minority, it gets blamed on their race as opposed to them just being scum.
You are right cause i used too strong words. But when a human is affected by something it tends to use such words. If u try to look at the things by the eyes of the sufferers you may understand.
In historical plan Bulgaria had one of the strongest economies for it's size before let's say 1930. If u trace the demographic statistics u'll see the rate of births and the low level of gypsies. And this is one of the major clues to get to the point.
On September 28 2011 17:15 BlueStar wrote: You are right cause i used too strong words. But when a human is affected by something it tends to use such words. If u try to look at the things by the eyes of the sufferers and you may understand.
In historical plan Bulgaria had one of the strongest economies for it's size before let's say 1930. If u trace the demographic statistics u'll see the rate of births and the low level of gypsies. And this is one of the major clues to get to the point.
You know what happened shortly after 1930 right? The world economy did a major free fall into near oblivion then some guy named Hitler started WW2.
I told u. Just google for pics with the words "цигани в България" (gypsies in Bulgaria). And imagine this is the way it is not beacause of racism or anything else. It's just because this part of the society is like trash. (I don't want to be understanded wrong) When u go to the garbage and u see 1t of trash there will be few things which can be useful or just left there cause they have something to substitute them. But overall everything is trash... METAPHORE don't attack me for the strong words.
Yes but the fact is it is racism, because you assume they are trash because of race. In reality they are no different from white trash junkie scumbags that we see on our streets, assaulting and raping people. No one cries about them because that's just regular crime committed by white trash (here we have a lot of white trash scum, I'm sure it's the same in the US). But when these acts are performed by a minority, it gets blamed on their race as opposed to them just being scum.
I find this topic hard to discuss in a “politically correct” way. On one hand I understand that obviously the race is not the issue here ( I’m yet to be convinced that so many people can be hard-wired to steal, rape, kill, wtv ) but rather the way that society treats them… but on the other hand I am weary ( to say the least ) of them when I see one on the street…The fact is that right now, no matter what the cause is, chances are that they are dangerous, for that is their place in society atm and so I end up being part of the problem. It’s a vicious cycle I don’t see way out of… I mean, I had a family of gypsies “living” in a ruined house next to me that the owner was too lazy to demolish. They’ve set that thing on fire 5 freaking times and one time it was really serious… And then I’m literally ashamed/scared to go out of my country and say that I’m Romanian because of the image these people gave us. A fresh start doesn’t really seem to be the solution, since they’ve had plenty of fresh starts in Italy and what not, only to end up in “gipsy camps”. It’s true that over time, the public’s image of them got progressively worse but I think that at the same time their society changed to reflect what others thought of them so it’s going to be really hard to make a change.
On September 28 2011 17:15 BlueStar wrote: You are right cause i used too strong words. But when a human is affected by something it tends to use such words. If u try to look at the things by the eyes of the sufferers and you may understand.
In historical plan Bulgaria had one of the strongest economies for it's size before let's say 1930. If u trace the demographic statistics u'll see the rate of births and the low level of gypsies. And this is one of the major clues to get to the point.
You know what happened shortly after 1930 right? The world economy did a major free fall into near oblivion then some guy named Hitler started WW2.
for the people calling out for racism all the way from across the ocean. You should understand that gipsy is a behavior, not a race. No one will spit on a modest gipsy that tries to make a living by working decently. it's not their ethnicity that is a concern, it's the way they live their lives, opposing everything that a decent society stands for. Gypsies are the lowest social class in europe, absolute bottom, and they're not trying to be better, at all.
US anti-racism heroes should see this:
go to minute 5:50 if you don't have time to see it
On September 28 2011 17:21 Manimal_pro wrote: for the people calling out for racism all the way from across the ocean. You should understand that gipsy is a behavior, not a race. No one will spit on a modest gipsy that tries to make a living by working decently. it's not their ethnicity that is a concern, it's the way they live their lives, opposing everything that a decent society stands for. Gypsies are the lowest social class in europe, absolute bottom, and they're not trying to be better, at all.
US anti-racism heroes should see this:
go to minute 5:50 if you don't have time to see it
You think it is a unique case? Here, the indigenous population has a life expectancy 20-30 years lower than everyone else and literally live in third world conditions right under our noses, despite government throwing incredible sums of money at them (if you try and find exactly how much of the budget goes towards aboriginal affairs, you won't be able to get a solid figure, that information is well hidden, because there would be an outcry among regular citizens). The opinion of the masses is that they are lazy, uneducated, and predisposed to violence and criminality, this was even the implicit opinion that previous governments held.
The truth is that when a person is shat on, they in turn proceed to shit on people, be it outsiders or their own children. It is a shame that this behaviour is associated with their race as a whole, rather than associated with their social standing.
for anyone complaining about racism, the biggest problem is not that they commit many crimes in order to sustain themselves. as i said in my previous post, unnecessary bestiality is oftenly attached to those crimes. i could go on and link hundreds of pages where elderly people were _raped_, _enslaved_, beaten brutally to death and so on... obviously the news sites dont write "the offender was a gypsy", but for anyone who lives here it pretty easy to decide wether it was a gypsy or not just by looking to the location where it happened. there is already hundred of villages in hungary, where everyone who could, just already escaped years before, only a few elder people stayed who dont have any kind of family to help them move. now when an elder man being found _on a chain(!!)_, with serious injurys i think its pretty obvious that, not an other elder man did it to him... its my opinion, but crime have to face punishment, however bestiality have to face retaliation. and im not the only one. people hear about these news every day, and being fed up with this shit. as i said, we are at the brink of a civil war.
now, the other problem is organized crime. this video is happened at Siofok, the most popular turist place in the summer, where every store, bar, club etc have to pay a share for a gypsy maffia leader. what will happen if they dont pay? why dont just go to the police? well this will happen:
this was just a little power demonstration. after that, noone was accused. the police didnt even go there, since theyre in their pockets aswell.
most hungarians just ask themselves: if authorities failed so much, who will help us solve the issue? and the consesus is, we have to act until we are the majority. the country was founded more than 1000 years ago, and we may not defeated everyone trying to opress us, but surely survived the tatar, ottomans, communists... if we have to, we will defend our country with our own blood, and as the authorities turned their back on us, its seems like this is all what remained.
On September 28 2011 12:01 Gremlin wrote: Ok, discodancer, you are implying what we did was based on racism and prejudices. How would you handle it?
(i'm the guy with the story that you retold)
I read his story, don't worry 100% he is a child with no sense of the world outside of his cartoon make believe world where everyone is nice to everyone
:3
I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
Intresting video. These kids are talented thiefs. Sounds like Spain is too soft on crime and that they do absolutly nothing to help the children that they arrest. Thats a government failure if I ever saw one. Spain doesn't seem to be the only ones going about this wrong too. Every article I read from various countries is baisclly the same. The adults teach the kids and the kids do not fear the punishment because there is none.
The selling children as brides thing aint a Gypsy exclusive thing. Its done in some Arab countrys aswell as in parts of Africa.
On September 28 2011 17:54 askTeivospy wrote: I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
The view Euoros have on gypsys is not that different from teh view white americans had on black people 50 years ago. Just because the majority have a specific view doesn't make it right.
On September 28 2011 17:55 Orcasgt24 wrote: Intresting video. These kids are talented thiefs. Sounds like Spain is too soft on crime and that they do absolutly nothing to help the children that they arrest. Thats a government failure if I ever saw one. Spain doesn't seem to be the only ones going about this wrong too. Every article I read from various countries is baisclly the same. The adults teach the kids and the kids do not fear the punishment because there is none.
The selling children as brides thing aint a Gypsy exclusive thing. Its done in some Arab countrys aswell as in parts of Africa.
On September 28 2011 17:54 askTeivospy wrote: I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
The view Euoros have on gypsys is not that different from teh view white americans had on black people 50 years ago. Just because the majority have a specific view doesn't make it right.
but when a minority (you) have a specific view with no understanding of anything, it surely has to be right isnt it? you forget that, africans been brought to the US against their own will, and was enslaved and threated like a second grade human. now, gypsys came here at their own will, and at the top of that have more privilages than a born hungarian. so in fact, were treated like second grade in our country. for example if i want to go to a university and i can prove one of my grandparents are roma, i get extra points for qualification... what do you think about that? the two situation does not compare, as america hurted black communities a lot, so they have the right to claim some sort of an endorsement as a compensation.
i think i can speak behalf of every hungarians here, but i wouldnt be more happy and consider the situation solved if they would integrate into society. however despite all the help they got in the last 20 years, the situation only got worse. its not the skin color, nationality or anything like that is the problem, its the lifestyle which is dont cope with european standards. i have many friends, including vietnamese, chinese, syrian, russian. they _never_ faced any kind of racism. you would think the russian would be a hard case, since communism only collapsed 23 years ago, and as you know soviets did a lot of bad for this country. how come, despite all this a russian family never faced any kind of hate or disrespecting in this country? they came here in the early 90s, where wounds were still very fresh, and didnt spoke a single word of hungarian. however when i asked them how did they get along, they just said despite all their expectations they never hear a single bad word about their origins.
On September 28 2011 17:55 Orcasgt24 wrote: Intresting video. These kids are talented thiefs. Sounds like Spain is too soft on crime and that they do absolutly nothing to help the children that they arrest. Thats a government failure if I ever saw one. Spain doesn't seem to be the only ones going about this wrong too. Every article I read from various countries is baisclly the same. The adults teach the kids and the kids do not fear the punishment because there is none.
The selling children as brides thing aint a Gypsy exclusive thing. Its done in some Arab countrys aswell as in parts of Africa.
On September 28 2011 17:54 askTeivospy wrote: I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
The view Euoros have on gypsys is not that different from teh view white americans had on black people 50 years ago. Just because the majority have a specific view doesn't make it right.
Thats nonsense. You cant make parallel between the two. Black people were enslaved for centuries without any rights. Gypsies have always had the same rights as any other citizen of the country. They have never been enslaved, abused, always had the right to vote etc.
Why do some people in here insist that calling gypsy CULTURE bad is racism? NO ONE in here (except for Cloud who is a genuine racist) is saying "you are a gypsy and therefore you are a thief". People are saying "you are a gypsy and practice the gypsy culture and therefore you have a very very high chance of being a thief". No one in their right mind would generalize a whole ethnic group of people as scum. It is however completely acceptable to generalize a CULTURE as a culture that promotes people turning into scum. There is not a single Eastern European in this thread that has said anything positive about gypsies (THE CULTURE NOT THE RACE).
I don't live near gypsies (gypsies that practice the gypsy culture, I couldn't care less about what race someone is) and have never been in contact with any. But boy, am I glad my country doesn't have much (if any at all) gypsies (and for the last time, I don't mean the RACE I mean the CULTURE).
Please stop mistaking attacks on gypsy culture as racism. I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud actually being racist. I have seen, however, loads of North Americans who for some reason just cannot understand the problem these gypsies pose (I've never been in contact with them, but hey, who am I going to believe? Some randoms from NA who've never seen a single gypsy in their life or the overwhelming amount of Eastern Europeans who actually live with these people).
As for solution to the problem, I couldn't have less of a clue. And as for the actual topic of this thread, it seems like corruption is part of the gypsy problem and solving the corruption will go a long way to solving the gypsy problem too. It also seems like gypsies are given enough chances and help as it is, but they just don't want to accept it.
i think i can speak behalf of every hungarians here, but i wouldnt be more happy and consider the situation solved if they would integrate into society. however despite all the help they got in the last 20 years, the situation only got worse. its not the skin color, nationality or anything like that is the problem, its the lifestyle which is dont cope with european standards. i have many friends, including vietnamese, chinese, syrian, russian. they _never_ faced any kind of racism. you would think the russian would be a hard case, since communism only collapsed 23 years ago, and as you know soviets did a lot of bad for this country. how come, despite all this a russian family never faced any kind of hate or disrespecting in this country?
^
Another thing, I never knew the problem was this big (in fact I didn't even know there was a problem at all). I'm pretty astounded by this thread.
I am not racist at all but those gipsys are biggest fucking worthless piece of shit i have ever seen. They don't send their kids to school (free basic education), they actually teach them how to steal. They make as many kids as possible, because they get more money from the country. 75 % of them don't even want to work at all. They are just taking money from state welfare and bitching about racism.
It even went so far, that the law is not equal for them and "white czech citizen", because the courts are all scared of being acused of racism from US and EU. This has to stop, i would let those people live in the same neigbourhood with gipsys for a week and we will see who is racist then.....seriously
Here in frankfurt we have a problem with 8 year old gypsy children stealing everything they can. I lived in an immigrant area 2 years ago and right next to us was a house full of gypsys. I did not have much contact with them, but I always saw them when shopping for food. They would go in groups of 10 into the supermarket. Their fat girls would form a circle before the food and let their children stuff everything in their pockets. Then theyd go to the cashier and complain that everything is so expensive and leave. The staff couldnt stop them because If they did the rest of the family came and caused a ruckus. A police officer told me he doesnt want to stop gypsys violating the speed limit because if he does stop them they make one call and another 100 gypsys show up. Gypsys are the only reason I was opposed to letting the south eastern europeans countries in the EU.
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
Oh, and your great country was very successful, it deported them back where they came from. GJ, now where would the rest of us deport them?
I told u. Just google for pics with the words "цигани в България" (gypsies in Bulgaria). And imagine this is the way it is not beacause of racism or anything else. It's just because this part of the society is like trash. (I don't want to be understanded wrong) When u go to the garbage and u see 1t of trash there will be few things which can be useful or just left there cause they have something to substitute them. But overall everything is trash... METAPHORE don't attack me for the strong words.
Yes but the fact is it is racism, because you assume they are trash because of race. In reality they are no different from white trash junkie scumbags that we see on our streets, assaulting and raping people. No one cries about them because that's just regular crime committed by white trash (here we have a lot of white trash scum, I'm sure it's the same in the US). But when these acts are performed by a minority, it gets blamed on their race as opposed to them just being scum.
Gypsy is not a race.
Yes it is? It's the way a lot of English-speaking people refer to those of the Romani ethnic group. It's freaking weird though, I always thought being a gyspy was a way of life/culture rather than an ethnic group before this.
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
When I did a wiki search on the term, it only came up
the Romani people, an ethnic group popularly referred to as gypsies.
Unlike the N word page, where it actually talks about the negative side of term.
Edit: I also just did a dictionary search too, so I don't know where you get the idea from?
Because over time the name became used with a negative connotation. People call others "gypsies" when trying to insult towards being a cheat, uneducated, disrespectful.
On September 28 2011 17:55 Orcasgt24 wrote: Intresting video. These kids are talented thiefs. Sounds like Spain is too soft on crime and that they do absolutly nothing to help the children that they arrest. Thats a government failure if I ever saw one. Spain doesn't seem to be the only ones going about this wrong too. Every article I read from various countries is baisclly the same. The adults teach the kids and the kids do not fear the punishment because there is none.
The selling children as brides thing aint a Gypsy exclusive thing. Its done in some Arab countrys aswell as in parts of Africa.
On September 28 2011 17:54 askTeivospy wrote: I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
The view Euoros have on gypsys is not that different from teh view white americans had on black people 50 years ago. Just because the majority have a specific view doesn't make it right.
but when a minority (you) have a specific view with no understanding of anything, it surely has to be right isnt it? you forget that, africans been brought to the US against their own will, and was enslaved and threated like a second grade human. now, gypsys came here at their own will, and at the top of that have more privilages than a born hungarian. so in fact, were treated like second grade in our country. for example if i want to go to a university and i can prove one of my grandparents are roma, i get extra points for qualification... what do you think about that? the two situation does not compare, as america hurted black communities a lot, so they have the right to claim some sort of an endorsement as a compensation.
I don't forget the context of african americans arrival.
Your example of university is not that different from the kind of privilages natives get in canada.
How is this thread developing so strong in the direction of gypsy minority problem/racism against them? It's not what the riots were about at all... it's like people outside of Bulgaria don't understand the happenings at all, even after they've been spelled out for them. I give up.
On September 28 2011 17:55 Orcasgt24 wrote: Intresting video. These kids are talented thiefs. Sounds like Spain is too soft on crime and that they do absolutly nothing to help the children that they arrest. Thats a government failure if I ever saw one. Spain doesn't seem to be the only ones going about this wrong too. Every article I read from various countries is baisclly the same. The adults teach the kids and the kids do not fear the punishment because there is none.
The selling children as brides thing aint a Gypsy exclusive thing. Its done in some Arab countrys aswell as in parts of Africa.
On September 28 2011 17:54 askTeivospy wrote: I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
The view Euoros have on gypsys is not that different from teh view white americans had on black people 50 years ago. Just because the majority have a specific view doesn't make it right.
but when a minority (you) have a specific view with no understanding of anything, it surely has to be right isnt it? you forget that, africans been brought to the US against their own will, and was enslaved and threated like a second grade human. now, gypsys came here at their own will, and at the top of that have more privilages than a born hungarian. so in fact, were treated like second grade in our country. for example if i want to go to a university and i can prove one of my grandparents are roma, i get extra points for qualification... what do you think about that? the two situation does not compare, as america hurted black communities a lot, so they have the right to claim some sort of an endorsement as a compensation.
I don't forget the context of african americans arrival.
Your example of university is not that different from the kind of privilages natives get in canada.
so you didnt forget, only ignored it. and yes, the natives, who you took the land from. were the natives of hungary, and being in a disadvantage compared to them. hope you see the difference.
On September 28 2011 17:55 Orcasgt24 wrote: Intresting video. These kids are talented thiefs. Sounds like Spain is too soft on crime and that they do absolutly nothing to help the children that they arrest. Thats a government failure if I ever saw one. Spain doesn't seem to be the only ones going about this wrong too. Every article I read from various countries is baisclly the same. The adults teach the kids and the kids do not fear the punishment because there is none.
On September 28 2011 17:54 askTeivospy wrote: I've been reading this thread and on the whole it seems as if the European people generally hate gypsies and north american people are calling them racist for it. Like I said before, I'm more inclined to side with the Europeans on this one since they *LIVE* it.
The view Euoros have on gypsys is not that different from teh view white americans had on black people 50 years ago. Just because the majority have a specific view doesn't make it right.
This is not happening in Spain only but in evry single western European country more or less. Black people managed to integrate for 50 years. In Europe we have gypsies from centuries, it's different.
On September 28 2011 18:39 Nikon wrote: How is this thread developing so strong in the direction of gypsy minority problem/racism against them? It's not what the riots were about at all... it's like people outside of Bulgaria don't understand the happenings at all, even after they've been spelled out for them. I give up.
well, i have nothing but solidarity to every bulgarian friend. i think every eastern euro country face the same problem to some degree, and we have to be vocal about it, to make outsiders understand the likes of czar kiro arent the ones who victimized by racism and hate. all i can hope these protest will bring the issue to the worlds eyes, how disgraceful and corrupt the goverments are, but also its important to avoid the hate-crime issues which is the first thing to show up everytime when gypsys involved in something.
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
discodancer, another all-knowing american. district full of gypsys? and only 3 of them in school? =))) a six grader cannot read (age of 12)? =))) illegal borders crossing in the european union? =))))
"Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think."
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
Romania and Bulgaria are not members of the Schengen Agreement. Just sayin'
"Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US." This part intrigued me to see what would be ur point of view.
"I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian." This part destroyed the first statement and proved it as a complete lie.
You got to understand/know that if u are deported from EU country to other it's because of some crime or being gypsy. (just a fact which u got to understand/know is not a coincidence).
In fact I know some gypsies which are smarter and sending their kids to school, and working... and they are doing everything possible to be separated from the "gypsy thing". So gypsies are gypsies and the minority of them which is doing the things right hate gypsies as well...
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
Romania and Bulgaria are not members of the Schengen Agreement. Just sayin'
Well in a few months maybe in a year at max when the two countries become members of the agreement, what are the other countries gonna do when the gypsies finally have the legal rights to go wherever the fuck in Europe they want and start stealing/prostituting/drug-dealing/murdering/raping and all the other crimes they commit in our countries, what are the western governments gonna do then? You don't think that people won't start protests in your countries?
On September 28 2011 18:39 Nikon wrote: How is this thread developing so strong in the direction of gypsy minority problem/racism against them? It's not what the riots were about at all... it's like people outside of Bulgaria don't understand the happenings at all, even after they've been spelled out for them. I give up.
well, i have nothing but solidarity to every bulgarian friend. i think every eastern euro country face the same problem to some degree, and we have to be vocal about it, to make outsiders understand the likes of czar kiro arent the ones who victimized by racism and hate. all i can hope these protest will bring the issue to the worlds eyes, how disgraceful and corrupt the goverments are, but also its important to avoid the hate-crime issues which is the first thing to show up everytime when gypsys involved in something.
There are no violent protests. Apart from the first one, in which only one of the gypsy families living in Katunitsa was targetted. Everything else is provocateurs planted in peaceful protests to create tension that the parties can ride in the upcoming - less than a month away - elections. Let's forget about the fact that first death was orchestrated, seeing as how the burnt down house was stripped of most valuable (in the pictures, there are stands for the outer parts of AC units that are missing, etc.) things way before shit went down. And the main culprit is being guarded in a 5 star hotel.
But apparently, no one cares about that, all that is important is that I'm a racist bigot that hates gypsies. At least that's my impression from reading this thread.
On September 28 2011 09:07 Bartimaues wrote: I'm from America and I had no idea that gypsies were a 21st century problem - the only time I've heard about them outside of a history class is this thread. Some of the actions described by them make them seem so detestable - listening to the persons who are posting from eastern europe, I couldn't even imagine having persons like those described living in American society. From reading the thread through there seems to be no solution but to send them somewhere else which doesn't take care of the problem at all, merely move it.
What I would love to read is the perspective of a true Gypsy on the topic - if anyone has a link or can provide such a thing, I think that would benefit the discussion enormously as every post has been from the perspective of the Gypsy's victims and those who are leeched off of by them, and so (rightly) heavily biased against them.
If anyone can give a link to a Gypsy's perspective on the topic of their culture against that of Eastern Europe, please do so.
95 ~ 99% of them are illiterate, so to even mention being able to use the PC is weird. But ones who can are usually banished from their own society as traitors, so they wouldn't defend the gypsy majority either.
On September 28 2011 18:39 Nikon wrote: How is this thread developing so strong in the direction of gypsy minority problem/racism against them? It's not what the riots were about at all... it's like people outside of Bulgaria don't understand the happenings at all, even after they've been spelled out for them. I give up.
well, i have nothing but solidarity to every bulgarian friend. i think every eastern euro country face the same problem to some degree, and we have to be vocal about it, to make outsiders understand the likes of czar kiro arent the ones who victimized by racism and hate. all i can hope these protest will bring the issue to the worlds eyes, how disgraceful and corrupt the goverments are, but also its important to avoid the hate-crime issues which is the first thing to show up everytime when gypsys involved in something.
There are no violent protests. Apart from the first one, in which only one of the gypsy families living in Katunitsa was targetted. Everything else is provocateurs planted in peaceful protests to create tension that the parties can ride in the upcoming - less than a month away - elections. Let's forget about the fact that first death was orchestrated, seeing as how the burnt down house was stripped of most valuable (in the pictures, there are stands for the outer parts of AC units that are missing, etc.) things way before shit went down. And the main culprit is being guarded in a 5 star hotel.
But apparently, no one cares about that, all that is important is that I'm a racist bigot that hates gypsies. At least that's my impression from reading this thread.
the news now hitted hungarys biggest news portal. you can read the context yourself, its very disappointing. on the international level, it seems there is already a racist case being formed victimizing the overlords.
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
Romania and Bulgaria are not members of the Schengen Agreement. Just sayin'
Well in a few months maybe in a year at max when the two countries become members of the agreement, what are the other countries gonna do when the gypsies finally have the legal rights to go wherever the fuck in Europe they want and start stealing/prostituting/drug-dealing/murdering/raping and all the other crimes they commit in our countries, what are the western governments gonna do then? You don't think that people won't start protests in your countries?
Was just correcting this guy. Idk what will happen but i wouldn't be surprised if the negociations are delayed.
On September 28 2011 18:39 Nikon wrote: How is this thread developing so strong in the direction of gypsy minority problem/racism against them? It's not what the riots were about at all... it's like people outside of Bulgaria don't understand the happenings at all, even after they've been spelled out for them. I give up.
well, i have nothing but solidarity to every bulgarian friend. i think every eastern euro country face the same problem to some degree, and we have to be vocal about it, to make outsiders understand the likes of czar kiro arent the ones who victimized by racism and hate. all i can hope these protest will bring the issue to the worlds eyes, how disgraceful and corrupt the goverments are, but also its important to avoid the hate-crime issues which is the first thing to show up everytime when gypsys involved in something.
There are no violent protests. Apart from the first one, in which only one of the gypsy families living in Katunitsa was targetted. Everything else is provocateurs planted in peaceful protests to create tension that the parties can ride in the upcoming - less than a month away - elections. Let's forget about the fact that first death was orchestrated, seeing as how the burnt down house was stripped of most valuable (in the pictures, there are stands for the outer parts of AC units that are missing, etc.) things way before shit went down. And the main culprit is being guarded in a 5 star hotel.
But apparently, no one cares about that, all that is important is that I'm a racist bigot that hates gypsies. At least that's my impression from reading this thread.
the news now hitted hungarys biggest news portal. you can read the context yourself, its very disappointing. on the international level, it seems there is already a racist case being formed victimizing the overlords.
Pseudo-journalism. That whole article is bollocks. Of course, I'm only getting partial translation, so some parts of it are unclear, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Well after all that's the complete idea besides the "gypsy problem".
They (the gypsies overall) do whatever they want and if some1 oppose them they cry for racism and in the end... nothing can be done to them cause the "modern society" is suing the "racists".
It's one vicious circle of hypocrisy which can be broken but just cause of the hypocrisy itself won't be ever.
On September 28 2011 18:39 Nikon wrote: How is this thread developing so strong in the direction of gypsy minority problem/racism against them? It's not what the riots were about at all... it's like people outside of Bulgaria don't understand the happenings at all, even after they've been spelled out for them. I give up.
well, i have nothing but solidarity to every bulgarian friend. i think every eastern euro country face the same problem to some degree, and we have to be vocal about it, to make outsiders understand the likes of czar kiro arent the ones who victimized by racism and hate. all i can hope these protest will bring the issue to the worlds eyes, how disgraceful and corrupt the goverments are, but also its important to avoid the hate-crime issues which is the first thing to show up everytime when gypsys involved in something.
There are no violent protests. Apart from the first one, in which only one of the gypsy families living in Katunitsa was targetted. Everything else is provocateurs planted in peaceful protests to create tension that the parties can ride in the upcoming - less than a month away - elections. Let's forget about the fact that first death was orchestrated, seeing as how the burnt down house was stripped of most valuable (in the pictures, there are stands for the outer parts of AC units that are missing, etc.) things way before shit went down. And the main culprit is being guarded in a 5 star hotel.
But apparently, no one cares about that, all that is important is that I'm a racist bigot that hates gypsies. At least that's my impression from reading this thread.
the news now hitted hungarys biggest news portal. you can read the context yourself, its very disappointing. on the international level, it seems there is already a racist case being formed victimizing the overlords.
Pseudo-journalism. That whole article is bollocks.
really? would have never thought =)))) pseudo-journalism or not, the people only hear about the thing through this article, will form their opinion based on that, this is why it is important to be vocal about the problems on an individual level, so those others who inclined to thinking instead of just letting others tell them to what to think will have other information to form their opinion.
On September 28 2011 19:16 BlueStar wrote: Well after all that's the complete idea besides the "gypsy problem".
They (the gypsies overall) do whatever they want and if some1 oppose them they cry for racism and in the end... nothing can be done to them cause the "modern society" is suing the "racists".
It's one vicious circle of hypocrisy which can be broken but just cause of the hypocrisy itself won't be ever.
No. We need entirely new political clique. Pick 240 random people that are under 30 and let's go from there. I promise you, it would be better than the current situation. Gypsies can only do whatever they want because our government doesn't want to enforce anything on them.
On September 28 2011 19:16 BlueStar wrote: Well after all that's the complete idea besides the "gypsy problem".
They (the gypsies overall) do whatever they want and if some1 oppose them they cry for racism and in the end... nothing can be done to them cause the "modern society" is suing the "racists".
It's one vicious circle of hypocrisy which can be broken but just cause of the hypocrisy itself won't be ever.
No. We need entirely new political clique. Pick 240 random people that are under 30 and let's go from there. I promise you, it would be better than the current situation. Gypsies can only do whatever they want because our government doesn't want to enforce anything on them.
this is what every post-communist country needs, but chances are high it wont happen at least for 20 years from now =(
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
Romania and Bulgaria are not members of the Schengen Agreement. Just sayin'
Well in a few months maybe in a year at max when the two countries become members of the agreement, what are the other countries gonna do when the gypsies finally have the legal rights to go wherever the fuck in Europe they want and start stealing/prostituting/drug-dealing/murdering/raping and all the other crimes they commit in our countries, what are the western governments gonna do then? You don't think that people won't start protests in your countries?
Was just correcting this guy. Idk what will happen but i wouldn't be surprised if the negociations are delayed.
On September 28 2011 18:39 Nikon wrote: How is this thread developing so strong in the direction of gypsy minority problem/racism against them? It's not what the riots were about at all... it's like people outside of Bulgaria don't understand the happenings at all, even after they've been spelled out for them. I give up.
well, i have nothing but solidarity to every bulgarian friend. i think every eastern euro country face the same problem to some degree, and we have to be vocal about it, to make outsiders understand the likes of czar kiro arent the ones who victimized by racism and hate. all i can hope these protest will bring the issue to the worlds eyes, how disgraceful and corrupt the goverments are, but also its important to avoid the hate-crime issues which is the first thing to show up everytime when gypsys involved in something.
There are no violent protests. Apart from the first one, in which only one of the gypsy families living in Katunitsa was targetted. Everything else is provocateurs planted in peaceful protests to create tension that the parties can ride in the upcoming - less than a month away - elections. Let's forget about the fact that first death was orchestrated, seeing as how the burnt down house was stripped of most valuable (in the pictures, there are stands for the outer parts of AC units that are missing, etc.) things way before shit went down. And the main culprit is being guarded in a 5 star hotel.
But apparently, no one cares about that, all that is important is that I'm a racist bigot that hates gypsies. At least that's my impression from reading this thread.
the news now hitted hungarys biggest news portal. you can read the context yourself, its very disappointing. on the international level, it seems there is already a racist case being formed victimizing the overlords.
Pseudo-journalism. That whole article is bollocks.
really? would have never thought =)))) pseudo-journalism or not, the people only hear about the thing through this article, will form their opinion based on that, this is why it is important to be vocal about the problems on an individual level, so those others who inclined to thinking instead of just letting others tell them to what to think will have other information to form their opinion.
That's another problem with the mass media being too powerful and the society being too naive and not looking for the truth and just relying on "reliable sources". These reliable sources can be even ur parents or ur best friends... nvm I'll get too damn deep in some philosophy analysis. /offtopic: If u have time read Cognitive pragmatism
if you don't have gipsies in your country don't even talk. do you know how it feels to come back home from school with fear in your stomach because a camp a gipsies are on the way to your house? but everytime people do something against them you have idiots saying you are a racist and so on. they do live only off of what they steal and their traffic. or please explain me how they can buy mercedeses and BMWs off of the social helps that we, in our infinite kindness, still allow them. i personally hate communitarianism as a whole (freemasonry, or some aspects of the jewish culture), but even more in this case because they are not only closed to the world but they are also dangerous and show very limited signs of having a common moral with us.
Look since i'm from a country that enslave millions of africans and sent them to the americas and i also have lots of black people and gipsy in my country i can say without any type of bias that the racism in the usa against black people aint got nothing to do with the euro gipsy "hate".
Black people mingle, they like white girls, they become friends with whites boys, they go to school, they want to work and do work when it's available, they eventually become a big part of our society, with musicians, politicians, bussiness man, cops, doctors, lawyers etc.. there is crime of course but it's not endemic to a race it's a problem with poverty and ghettos.
Now you look at portuguese gipsys(in my country they are not so hardcore like in romania and bulgaria, thank you for that), this is a people that live like "nomads" but they don't work the ground or have animals, so they have to buy stuff to survive. But they don't work, they sell stuff or resort to crime. They have lots of kids to benefit from big subsidies from the state and the state also gave them houses to stop them from setting camp wherever they want. If a gipsy goes to a hospital the all family goes, so imagine 30 dirty gipsys in from of a hospital camping all day. Many of them resort to selling pirated stuff and lead a more legal way of life, women and children sell false bags in a market and the man helps and also sells some hash, for instance.
Can you imagine how it's so easy to hate them? I work for a living, we pay our taxes and the goverment doesn't give me a house or anybody else.. but they gave it to the gipsys! Great houses with rents of 10€ por month and they don't pay! Not because they don't have it but because they know no one is gonna make them pay. Imagine what it is to marry your daughters at 7 years old and never let them go to school. Why? To perpetuate the gap in our societies? They have elders and those are the rule makers and the police.
All of this is not to validate the extermination of a people but to open the eyes of people that see this has pure racism, it's got nothing to do with color or prejudice. It's all about what everyone can see for themselves. Now i also know gipsys that are changing and started to go to school etc. so there is hope and in my country i know they will never become a bigger trouble then they are now. If all goes nice they will eventually become part of our society. They only speak portuguese for instance, have the same religion(why would anyone) and overall are beginning to change, but it's a portuguese and latino thing, we mingle.
Romanian gipsys are diferrent tho, those are 100% lost for society. They don't want and will never be a part of society, i know because we also have some of those here and even our gipsys don't like them. They only beg and commit crimes, nothing else and nothing more. They are here ilegally and are constantly deported once they are caught.
So to all you USA folk out here understand that this is not based on color of a skin, but on habits and the lack of social skillz. There are so many historys about gipsys that they aren't even funny. There will never be a Malcom X or a Martin Luther King for the Gipsys because they don't think they need to change or that we need to get along.. They just take what they want and fuck the rest, if you mess with one you mess with everyone and you will probably get hurt.
If you had a KKK against gipsys, the gipsys would get them, kill them and use their KKK robes has blankets to sleep on the floor!
Personally i'm hoping for a Portuguese gipsy integration in our society, i don't hate them and overall no one suffers that much because of the new housing rules etc.. The situation is more peacefull then some years ago and i hope it improves.
On September 28 2011 18:39 Nikon wrote: How is this thread developing so strong in the direction of gypsy minority problem/racism against them? It's not what the riots were about at all... it's like people outside of Bulgaria don't understand the happenings at all, even after they've been spelled out for them. I give up.
well, i have nothing but solidarity to every bulgarian friend. i think every eastern euro country face the same problem to some degree, and we have to be vocal about it, to make outsiders understand the likes of czar kiro arent the ones who victimized by racism and hate. all i can hope these protest will bring the issue to the worlds eyes, how disgraceful and corrupt the goverments are, but also its important to avoid the hate-crime issues which is the first thing to show up everytime when gypsys involved in something.
There are no violent protests. Apart from the first one, in which only one of the gypsy families living in Katunitsa was targetted. Everything else is provocateurs planted in peaceful protests to create tension that the parties can ride in the upcoming - less than a month away - elections. Let's forget about the fact that first death was orchestrated, seeing as how the burnt down house was stripped of most valuable (in the pictures, there are stands for the outer parts of AC units that are missing, etc.) things way before shit went down. And the main culprit is being guarded in a 5 star hotel.
But apparently, no one cares about that, all that is important is that I'm a racist bigot that hates gypsies. At least that's my impression from reading this thread.
the news now hitted hungarys biggest news portal. you can read the context yourself, its very disappointing. on the international level, it seems there is already a racist case being formed victimizing the overlords.
Pseudo-journalism. That whole article is bollocks.
really? would have never thought =)))) pseudo-journalism or not, the people only hear about the thing through this article, will form their opinion based on that, this is why it is important to be vocal about the problems on an individual level, so those others who inclined to thinking instead of just letting others tell them to what to think will have other information to form their opinion.
Or people should just stop believing everything they read. Btw, it's not an anti-gypsy problem now, but it may turn into one. Let me tell you a background story ... (actually, I've said it several times in this thread, but most people wouldn't read the thread and would just sprinkle ignorance anyways) There are political parties, with great power here. There's also a million of illiterate gypsies. If a party can present itself as one protecting the minorities, and go through all the gypsy ghetto-s saying that Bulgarians want genocide on them, and the only way to save themselves is to vote for them, they are sure to have ~20% of the political power for the next four years, doing their own corrupt stuff. Meanwhile. there's a football club fanclub (Sofia-Zapad) that is doing all sorts of illegal stuff, they are part of the drug mafia, etc. So, these same guys have been seen several times provoking racism in otherwise peaceful protests, so that the media could talk about racism, thus making people look away from the real reason that the peaceful people there were protesting about (usually corruption) and think that everyone there is a sick nazi psycho. This on one side makes sure everyone forgets the reason for the protest, and also makes it look that there's racial hatred around, when there is none. These guys are obviously paid by a particular political party to do that, just saying if you couldn't catch the logic already. This destroys the image of the average Bulgarian, but I'm not sure there's anything that the average Bulgarian can do about it ...
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
Romania and Bulgaria are not members of the Schengen Agreement. Just sayin'
Well in a few months maybe in a year at max when the two countries become members of the agreement, what are the other countries gonna do when the gypsies finally have the legal rights to go wherever the fuck in Europe they want and start stealing/prostituting/drug-dealing/murdering/raping and all the other crimes they commit in our countries, what are the western governments gonna do then? You don't think that people won't start protests in your countries?
Was just correcting this guy. Idk what will happen but i wouldn't be surprised if the negociations are delayed.
Did you read your link ? ( I didn't provide one btw ).
Whilst some of the formulations remain complex, the basic premise of the directive is simple: EEA citizens have the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance
...
To be fully covered by the European right of free movement, the EEA citizen needs to exercise one of the four treaty rights:
* working as an employee (this includes looking for work for a reasonable amount of time), * working as a self-employed person, * studying, * being self-sufficient or retired.
etc...
I guess that the Shengen Agreement is still needed for Bulgarian and Romanian who are not employed, self sufficient or studying ( i.e: gypsies ).
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
Romania and Bulgaria are not members of the Schengen Agreement. Just sayin'
Well in a few months maybe in a year at max when the two countries become members of the agreement, what are the other countries gonna do when the gypsies finally have the legal rights to go wherever the fuck in Europe they want and start stealing/prostituting/drug-dealing/murdering/raping and all the other crimes they commit in our countries, what are the western governments gonna do then? You don't think that people won't start protests in your countries?
Was just correcting this guy. Idk what will happen but i wouldn't be surprised if the negociations are delayed.
Whilst some of the formulations remain complex, the basic premise of the directive is simple: EEA citizens have the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance
...
To be fully covered by the European right of free movement, the EEA citizen needs to exercise one of the four treaty rights:
* working as an employee (this includes looking for work for a reasonable amount of time), * working as a self-employed person, * studying, * being self-sufficient or retired.
etc...
I guess that the Shengen Agreement is still needed for Bulgarian and Romanian who are not employed, self sufficient or studying ( i.e: gypsies ).
So.. now prove that any of them ain't "self-sufficient".
P.S. I can personally, from my point of view, approve that shell is absolutely right
On September 28 2011 18:39 Nikon wrote: How is this thread developing so strong in the direction of gypsy minority problem/racism against them? It's not what the riots were about at all... it's like people outside of Bulgaria don't understand the happenings at all, even after they've been spelled out for them. I give up.
well, i have nothing but solidarity to every bulgarian friend. i think every eastern euro country face the same problem to some degree, and we have to be vocal about it, to make outsiders understand the likes of czar kiro arent the ones who victimized by racism and hate. all i can hope these protest will bring the issue to the worlds eyes, how disgraceful and corrupt the goverments are, but also its important to avoid the hate-crime issues which is the first thing to show up everytime when gypsys involved in something.
There are no violent protests. Apart from the first one, in which only one of the gypsy families living in Katunitsa was targetted. Everything else is provocateurs planted in peaceful protests to create tension that the parties can ride in the upcoming - less than a month away - elections. Let's forget about the fact that first death was orchestrated, seeing as how the burnt down house was stripped of most valuable (in the pictures, there are stands for the outer parts of AC units that are missing, etc.) things way before shit went down. And the main culprit is being guarded in a 5 star hotel.
But apparently, no one cares about that, all that is important is that I'm a racist bigot that hates gypsies. At least that's my impression from reading this thread.
the news now hitted hungarys biggest news portal. you can read the context yourself, its very disappointing. on the international level, it seems there is already a racist case being formed victimizing the overlords.
Pseudo-journalism. That whole article is bollocks.
really? would have never thought =)))) pseudo-journalism or not, the people only hear about the thing through this article, will form their opinion based on that, this is why it is important to be vocal about the problems on an individual level, so those others who inclined to thinking instead of just letting others tell them to what to think will have other information to form their opinion.
Or people should just stop believing everything they read. Btw, it's not an anti-gypsy problem now, but it may turn into one. Let me tell you a background story ... (actually, I've said it several times in this thread, but most people wouldn't read the thread and would just sprinkle ignorance anyways) There are political parties, with great power here. There's also a million of illiterate gypsies. If a party can present itself as one protecting the minorities, and go through all the gypsy ghetto-s saying that Bulgarians want genocide on them, and the only way to save themselves is to vote for them, they are sure to have ~20% of the political power for the next four years, doing their own corrupt stuff. Meanwhile. there's a football club fanclub (Sofia-Zapad) that is doing all sorts of illegal stuff, they are part of the drug mafia, etc. So, these same guys have been seen several times provoking racism in otherwise peaceful protests, so that the media could talk about racism, thus making people look away from the real reason that the peaceful people there were protesting about (usually corruption) and think that everyone there is a sick nazi psycho. This on one side makes sure everyone forgets the reason for the protest, and also makes it look that there's racial hatred around, when there is none. These guys are obviously paid by a particular political party to do that, just saying if you couldn't catch the logic already. This destroys the image of the average Bulgarian, but I'm not sure there's anything that the average Bulgarian can do about it ...
yes i agree, and btw the same things going on here. now imagine, in hungary, propaganda has its limitations since people living in the same condition, facing the same problems and just in general bulgaria not so far to not know about the happenings there from other source. now for western europen news, or even better for american ones these limitations doesnt exist. they twist the facts the way they want =(
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
Romania and Bulgaria are not members of the Schengen Agreement. Just sayin'
Well in a few months maybe in a year at max when the two countries become members of the agreement, what are the other countries gonna do when the gypsies finally have the legal rights to go wherever the fuck in Europe they want and start stealing/prostituting/drug-dealing/murdering/raping and all the other crimes they commit in our countries, what are the western governments gonna do then? You don't think that people won't start protests in your countries?
Was just correcting this guy. Idk what will happen but i wouldn't be surprised if the negociations are delayed.
Whilst some of the formulations remain complex, the basic premise of the directive is simple: EEA citizens have the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance
...
To be fully covered by the European right of free movement, the EEA citizen needs to exercise one of the four treaty rights:
* working as an employee (this includes looking for work for a reasonable amount of time), * working as a self-employed person, * studying, * being self-sufficient or retired.
etc...
I guess that the Shengen Agreement is still needed for Bulgarian and Romanian who are not employed, self sufficient or studying ( i.e: gypsies ).
I bet that they can be pretty self sufficient when they start stealing your railroad tracks and lines, when they start robbing your home or just mug you on the street, or by prostituting themselves, or by dealing drugs. Sounds like they can sustain themselves pretty well don't you think?
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
Romania and Bulgaria are not members of the Schengen Agreement. Just sayin'
Well in a few months maybe in a year at max when the two countries become members of the agreement, what are the other countries gonna do when the gypsies finally have the legal rights to go wherever the fuck in Europe they want and start stealing/prostituting/drug-dealing/murdering/raping and all the other crimes they commit in our countries, what are the western governments gonna do then? You don't think that people won't start protests in your countries?
Was just correcting this guy. Idk what will happen but i wouldn't be surprised if the negociations are delayed.
Did you read your link ? ( I didn't provide one btw ).
Whilst some of the formulations remain complex, the basic premise of the directive is simple: EEA citizens have the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance
...
To be fully covered by the European right of free movement, the EEA citizen needs to exercise one of the four treaty rights:
* working as an employee (this includes looking for work for a reasonable amount of time), * working as a self-employed person, * studying, * being self-sufficient or retired.
etc...
I guess that the Shengen Agreement is still needed for Bulgarian and Romanian who are not employed, self sufficient or studying ( i.e: gypsies ).
So.. now prove that any of them ain't "self-sufficient".
I don't have to prove anything lol. Was just responding to the guy saying that expulsing people from Romania or Bulgaria is illegal.
On September 28 2011 19:32 Boblion wrote: I guess that the Shengen Agreement is still needed for Bulgarian and Romanian who are not employed, self sufficient or studying ( i.e: gypsies ).
I looked up the Schengen agreement on wiki and forgot that it wasn't you who directed me to it.
Funny that you bolded the exact part that I bolded when I quoted that article a few pages ago. But those limitations are not for crossing borders but rather for permanent residency status in states of which you are not a citizen.
edit: Those among the Gypsy that steal seem to make a sizable amount of money off it. Why do their slums still look like the 3rd world slums?
16 months of jail for stealing jewelry in amount of 52.000 GBP. It's a prosperous business man, considering that's more than the average englishman would make in that timeframe
Let me share a story here... My aunt was walking on the street and she noticed really young and small "gipsy" girl sneaking into her purse (probably like 8 years old). So she started yelling at her to get the fuck away from her stuff. Then she just saw the girl walking to her mother and the mother was really angry at her because she didn't manage to steal anything. I have never seen and can't imagine "white citizens" doing this crap. Also there is countless of stories from my friends who were mugged by 5 or more gipsys with knifes. It is quite a common thing in Prague..unfortunately.
I am astonished how little most of the US/Canada citizens here think they understand the problem and why while it IS racist it's nothing like the racism you have.
The current problem is about an organized crime boss being untouchable for years and years because he can make his minions vote for any politic for something like 5 euro per person (the actual voter get about 1-2 euro). And those people are used last 20 years by any party. So this crime boss (well actually some of his people) killed 19 year boy who was trying to voice that they are criminals. And the riots actually started after said crime boss went on TV saying that if anyone else want to accuse him the same fate will follow.
I just wish to hear how this will be normal to happen in USA for example if said crime boss was black?
The bigger portion of this topic is about racism against gypsies in Bulgaria. First I will just state some facts: 1. It's norm for gypsy girls to marry at 12 and start having babies as soon as they can without stopping for as long as they can. Why is that? Here in Bulgaria for every child you get some money (i guess like in most countries) and if you have more children you get more money for every child you have untill it reach 18 years. So basically you get about 100 euro per month per child for 18 years. It does not matter if you have your own. I guess you can make the math by yourself? While your mother gets money for you, you get money for your own child....
And for reference minimal wage here is 120 euro.
2. There are countless programs that offer free education and food for gypsy children. The government even pay them to send their children to school. What happens? As soon the money are in their hand children stop attending school and start stealing/begging/drug dealing... And this goes on every year.
Those are some of the problems in big cities.
I will give some examples what happens in villages or small towns:
A mob of gypsies enters someones land. They take everything and when the person try to resist they beat him. After a few of those in one village old man (he is like 70 years old) shoot and killed the gypsy teenager who was stealing his sheep. This man was sued for murder because the boy was "returning" the sheep that was fled... In another incident an old man was killed by gypsy teenager who was stealing from his yard. The boy was found and released because he was self defending for the old man inside the old man's yard....
And the list goes on and on...
So you will ask how can this problem be fixed? It's easy. It was done by the communists. What they do was basically that: you are gypsy and believe you should be able to do whatever you want? FUCK YOU! YOU ARE COMMUNIST NOW AND WILL DO WHAT THE PARTY SAY!
Is it the right thing to do with people? Hell no. Is it the only working solution known so far for gypsy? Hell yes.
P.S. And something else i forgot to mention. Every Bulgarian citizen should pay for electricity/water/public transport BUT the gypsy does not. Why? Because when the companies try to stop water/electricity somewhere mobs of gypsies gather in basically every major city, some gypsy leaders start chanting that they are being looked like second hand people and the government makes exeption and let them have whatever was stopped being promissed that they will pay "later".
So excuse me for being racist but when i am treated like an idiot that will pay everything for someone and i can't say no i will hate him.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
User was temp banned for this post.
Please dont kill michael caine he is my favorite actor!
On September 28 2011 20:06 Crassulacean wrote: I thought europe was better than america until i read the posts here! Fucking bigots some of you are
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
And your contribution for the thread is ... ??????
I usually hide the general forum in my browser, because it's useless to waste nerves because of people here being absolutely retarded scrubs. This thread is different, I want to make sure at least some of the people on TL realize that what's happening in Bulgaria is by no means racist. What's happening in this thread is also not racist for more than ten pages now. Why are none of these posts moderated, while if I react to them in anger (which is kind of reasonable when posting rational posts results in no-one reading them and everyone giving ignorant useless opinion anyways) I'd get banned for it ??????
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
I'm sure there are people in the mob that are nice people as well, that doesn't stop people from calling them criminals.
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
Oh, and your great country was very successful, it deported them back where they came from. GJ, now where would the rest of us deport them?
exactly. some countries have deported them back to balkans and no one made any problem regarding that and if any balkan country or any eastern european country tries to deport them to somewhere else then it would have been a major problem.
In Bulgaria, a small example how communist mafia>government>police>gypsie relation can go; you own a car and after some time it gets stolen. oh yes every car in bulgaria got stolen atleast once. you have had a government forced insurance that u have to pay from time to time to the government which gives you the licence aswell, which makes your car registrated. anyway when your car is stolen, you are pretty sure that it is stolen by gypsies. if you go to the police and report it, they will tell you it will take some time to find it if we can even. your government pays the insurance where that money goes to the police because as soon as you receive the government insurance, police appears with your car lol. same with car example, many stolen goods are actually tracked and controlled by the police which are partners in crime with gypsies. but they cant do anything because government always acts the blind-deaf monkey thanks to the mafia behind it. you cant believe how eastern europe is corrupt as hell.
In Turkey, when todays liberal-conservative government got elected at 2002, they have offered gypsies one last chance to live like any other citizen, %99 of the gypsies yet again continued to do what they do. as a result, they have been deported to bulgaria/greece. goverment demolished their trash huts and built proper housing there and now the %1 of the remaining is living there, paying taxes and doing no crime at all.
In Serbia, current power in the government is the democratic party. Irony is that them being democrats, there is no proper democratic constitution. there are some good articles within regarding human rights but still there are other ridiculous articles such as the president is chief of the army at the same time. anyway serbia has been accepting many bulgarians to the country recently, any bulgarians can confirm that aswell here and all the reason was how those bulgarians are fleeing to serbia because of bulgarian mega corrupt government. serbian government is corrupt aswell but atleast there is no major gypsie leaders who can control lots of power but still the gypsies in serbia are living the same way as any other in the region. but if serbia dont deport gypsies out it is very soon that serbia will get to the same level as bulgarians and romanians regarding the gypsie issue, amount of problems are very close to it anyway.
while In Croatia, government have followed a similar way such as some western european countries and turkey regarding gypsies and deported big amount of them to neighbours where they believe they came from and having tensions with the living minorty. not so much ago the croat government wanted to burn down, yes literally burn down with torches, their trash village because they are really not wanted there.
i can go in more details in all eastern european countries regarding what both sides and especially governments are doing regarding the issue. yet again i say, it is not racism. it is pure nationalism since gypsies refuse to accept your nationality and refuse your government, refuse the countries and the borders in the whole eastern europe. comparing gypsies to the blacks in america is also very stupid. no one is putting gypsies to slavery in Europe. they have same rights as the people who they live with. hell even have extra rights because of being minorities.
Europeans in this thread are posting with huge hate because they want justice, not because they hate their dark brown skin and dark hair. They want justice that they dont want intruders and criminals to live with double standarts while they have to pay taxes so the money goes to these gypsies kids, local people have to tolerate them because they are humans regardless of how big crimes they are doing on the society. they want justice because they dont want their kids or even themselves to be pulled in by force to the prostitution, armed robberies and assaults, drug sellers and organ mafias. they want justice because where they live the local companies like from groceries, bars to small government funded services like bus transportation and many more stuff that is suffering from the gypsies barbaric way of living but still tolerating their crimes and asking a stagnant government to sort this issue with patiently for years.
so people who are shitting about racism, just zip it and let the europeans ask for their justice. because they rightfully deserve it to the every drop.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
So if there was a thread where people said how much they hated black people because all they do is steal, you wouldn't have a problem with that because someone could argue it's a cultural trait?
Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal. Yes they live a different lifestyle and there will be clashes of culture but there is no law that says they have to live the same way as everyone else. Anyone making blanket statements like all gyspies steal or all gypsies are violent is prejudiced.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
So if there was a thread where people said how much they hated black people because all they do is steal, you wouldn't have a problem with that because someone could argue it's a cultural trait?
Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal. Yes they live a different lifestyle and there will be clashes of culture but there is no law that says they have to live the same way as everyone else. Anyone making blanket statements like all gyspies steal or all gypsies are violent is prejudiced.
So according to your statement when they refuse to pay taxes and bills for what they used i should respect this as a way of life and go fuck myself?
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features?
FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it.
Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
So if there was a thread where people said how much they hated black people because all they do is steal, you wouldn't have a problem with that because someone could argue it's a cultural trait?
Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal. Yes they live a different lifestyle and there will be clashes of culture but there is no law that says they have to live the same way as everyone else. Anyone making blanket statements like all gyspies steal or all gypsies are violent is prejudiced.
Quite different bro. As I mentioned earlier, in gypsy language they have one word for "slave" and "foreigner". They don't even hide the fact that their culture is based on stealing and all the other things mentioned here. The difference is that when a black guy isn't stealing it's a surprise for no-one. When a gypsy isn't stealing it's not only surprising for people of other cultures, it's also considered as something like "being a traitor" from the gypsy community. I've seen two types of successful gypsies : 1) those who are ashamed of their gypsy heritage and try to conceal the fact that they belong (or have belonged) to this community 2) those who say "I'm gypsy, and while I'm not proud of what most gypsies doing, I can't stop being gypsy and I want to be judged by a normal person" BOTH types are actually against gypsy culture, how hard it it to understand :/
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
So if there was a thread where people said how much they hated black people because all they do is steal, you wouldn't have a problem with that because someone could argue it's a cultural trait?
Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal. Yes they live a different lifestyle and there will be clashes of culture but there is no law that says they have to live the same way as everyone else. Anyone making blanket statements like all gyspies steal or all gypsies are violent is prejudiced.
And anyone saying stuff like this is fucking ignorant. Their culture and lifestyle LEAD to all those things people are accusing them from (robbing, living on welfawe, not sending children to school). So stop with the prejudice bullshit PLEASE and learn something about their culture first. Sure, there are gypsies who are integrated to society, have jobs, have children who study, but those are gypsies who mostly or totally abandoned the gypsy culture and lifestyle.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
So if there was a thread where people said how much they hated black people because all they do is steal, you wouldn't have a problem with that because someone could argue it's a cultural trait?
Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal. Yes they live a different lifestyle and there will be clashes of culture but there is no law that says they have to live the same way as everyone else. Anyone making blanket statements like all gyspies steal or all gypsies are violent is prejudiced.
gypsy is not a race. races are black, asian, caucashian, latin. gypsy is not a nationality either since there is no gypsy-country or gypsyland. nationalities are english, russian, canadian etc. roma is an ethic group, originates from India arriving to europe in the 15th century. most of them follows gypsy culture. the "gypsy" word itself is a translation of the world cigany to english (czech: cikan, latin: cinganus, german: zigeuner, french: tsigane, italian: zingaro, portugese: cigano, romanian: tigan, spanish: zincal, swedish: ziganere, serbian, slovanian and croatian: cigan, turkish: cingene...) every one of them originates from the greek word "ατσιγανο" which has had the following meaning: "opposer of law", "outsider", "untouchable".
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
Oh, and your great country was very successful, it deported them back where they came from. GJ, now where would the rest of us deport them?
exactly. some countries have deported them back to balkans and no one made any problem regarding that and if any balkan country or any eastern european country tries to deport them to somewhere else then it would have been a major problem.
In Bulgaria, a small example how communist mafia>government>police>gypsie relation can go; you own a car and after some time it gets stolen. oh yes every car in bulgaria got stolen atleast once. you have had a government forced insurance that u have to pay from time to time to the government which gives you the licence aswell, which makes your car registrated. anyway when your car is stolen, you are pretty sure that it is stolen by gypsies. if you go to the police and report it, they will tell you it will take some time to find it if we can even. your government pays the insurance where that money goes to the police because as soon as you receive the government insurance, police appears with your car lol. same with car example, many stolen goods are actually tracked and controlled by the police which are partners in crime with gypsies. but they cant do anything because government always acts the blind-deaf monkey thanks to the mafia behind it. you cant believe how eastern europe is corrupt as hell.
In Turkey, when todays liberal-conservative government got elected at 2002, they have offered gypsies one last chance to live like any other citizen, %99 of the gypsies yet again continued to do what they do. as a result, they have been deported to bulgaria/greece. goverment demolished their trash huts and built proper housing there and now the %1 of the remaining is living there, paying taxes and doing no crime at all.
In Serbia, current power in the government is the democratic party. Irony is that them being democrats, there is no proper democratic constitution. there are some good articles within regarding human rights but still there are other ridiculous articles such as the president is chief of the army at the same time. anyway serbia has been accepting many bulgarians to the country recently, any bulgarians can confirm that aswell here and all the reason was how those bulgarians are fleeing to serbia because of bulgarian mega corrupt government. serbian government is corrupt aswell but atleast there is no major gypsie leaders who can control lots of power but still the gypsies in serbia are living the same way as any other in the region. but if serbia dont deport gypsies out it is very soon that serbia will get to the same level as bulgarians and romanians regarding the gypsie issue, amount of problems are very close to it anyway.
while In Croatia, government have followed a similar way such as some western european countries and turkey regarding gypsies and deported big amount of them to neighbours where they believe they came from and having tensions with the living minorty. not so much ago the croat government wanted to burn down, yes literally burn down with torches, their trash village because they are really not wanted there.
i can go in more details in all eastern european countries regarding what both sides and especially governments are doing regarding the issue. yet again i say, it is not racism. it is pure nationalism since gypsies refuse to accept your nationality and refuse your government, refuse the countries and the borders in the whole eastern europe. comparing gypsies to the blacks in america is also very stupid. no one is putting gypsies to slavery in Europe. they have same rights as the people who they live with. hell even have extra rights because of being minorities.
Europeans in this thread are posting with huge hate because they want justice, not because they hate their dark brown skin and dark hair. They want justice that they dont want intruders and criminals to live with double standarts while they have to pay taxes so the money goes to these gypsies kids, local people have to tolerate them because they are humans regardless of how big crimes they are doing on the society. they want justice because they dont want their kids or even themselves to be pulled in by force to the prostitution, armed robberies and assaults, drug sellers and organ mafias. they want justice because where they live the local companies like from groceries, bars to small government funded services like bus transportation and many more stuff that is suffering from the gypsies barbaric way of living but still tolerating their crimes and asking a stagnant government to sort this issue with patiently for years.
so people who are shitting about racism, just zip it and let the europeans ask for their justice. because they rightfully deserve it to the every drop.
Thank you for this post, Reyis. May I ask where are you from?
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
So if there was a thread where people said how much they hated black people because all they do is steal, you wouldn't have a problem with that because someone could argue it's a cultural trait?
Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal. Yes they live a different lifestyle and there will be clashes of culture but there is no law that says they have to live the same way as everyone else. Anyone making blanket statements like all gyspies steal or all gypsies are violent is prejudiced.
So according to your statement when they refuse to pay taxes and bills for what they used i should respect this as a way of life and go fuck myself?
Of course, I can only speak for my country. Here the majority of gypsies live on legal sites where they are required to pay taxes. Problems occur when there are not enough legal sites (because there are not enough).
However I still hear the same prejudices here. 'All they do is steal, they are all violent criminals, why should we pay for them' etc etc. And having spent a good deal of time with a gypsy family, I know all of these things to be untrue. Historically as well they have been persecuted to a huge degree.
So even though I can't really comment on the gypsy 'problem' in your country, am I going to just accept that they are all anti-social, violent criminals who do nothing but steal? No man, it'd take a lot of convincing. Because that's not my experience, of gypsies or just of people in general; I'd find it difficult to believe that any large group of people could all be thieves and criminals.
Ok fuck this thread too many people either concerned with the minimal difference between race and ethnicity (seriously who gives a fuck) or busy telling me what I do and do not know.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features?
FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it.
Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour.
I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid.
I feel this is a very big problem in the western world. As soon as someone even suggests that a particular culture might not mingle well into society it's like all the leftwing activists jump from behind the trees and start screaming RACIST RACIST NAZIS RACIST NAZIS. It's disgusting really. Unless you're attributing character traits to a race instead of a culture, IT'S NOT RACIST.
If a culture encourages stealing, murder, rape and illiteracy then it's bad culture. End of. Take any baby from stone age tribe X in the middle of nowhere from the African continent and raise him in a rich white family. He'll become succesful. Race is not the problem, culture is.
And besides, I've never even seen gypsies as an ethnic group or race. The translation of gypsy would be zigeuner in Dutch and that simply means someone living a nomadic life. The correct ethnical term would be Romani (as far as I know). When people refer to gypsies they mean the Romani people practicing the gypsy culture.
I'm racist against thiefs, drugdealers and murderers so that means i hate all the whites, blacks, asians and gipsys that fall under that.
The problem with the gipsys is that their lifestyle only allows them to be criminals, why you ask?
Because they won't work and since they don't cultivate, grow animals or actually have any skill that can bring them money legally besides all the subsidies they get from all the european government they have to commit crimes or they will die of food!
People don't get it but 90% of all gipsys are unemployed or even more! And they will never change because they don't allow their kids to go to school.
For instance the Amish.people live outside of their communitys in the states but they work for their food and they educate their children, see the difference.
BTW i'm sorry for you bulgarian guys.. your goverment is way worse then the gipsys because they allow them to rule your country. It's not like that in Portugal since they are a small minority and don't have any political power or connections with the police. I wouldn't like to live in a country that works like yours and i bet you don't to.. so cheer up guys maybe someday it will change!
On September 28 2011 20:39 The KY wrote: Ok fuck this thread too many people either concerned with the minimal difference between race and ethnicity (seriously who gives a fuck) or busy telling me what I do and do not know.
/caring.
"Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal" well yes it is, since the ancient greek word have the meaning "opposer of law". up to this day, they not just referred by others, but also referring to themselves with the same word. you certainly cared enough to show us how uninformed you are. however upon your request ill let you make a clown out of yourself and stop correcting.
This proves my point.. When a gipsy leaves their lifestyle and join our culture they become a person deserving of respect and admiration!
A well educated person will always be that and not a black, white or gipsy. If they send their children to school in two generations they will stop being hated.. Study, integrate, mingle and work for a living and no one will be prejudice against you. It's not color, it's lifestyle.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
So if there was a thread where people said how much they hated black people because all they do is steal, you wouldn't have a problem with that because someone could argue it's a cultural trait?
Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal. Yes they live a different lifestyle and there will be clashes of culture but there is no law that says they have to live the same way as everyone else. Anyone making blanket statements like all gyspies steal or all gypsies are violent is prejudiced.
So according to your statement when they refuse to pay taxes and bills for what they used i should respect this as a way of life and go fuck myself?
Of course, I can only speak for my country. Here the majority of gypsies live on legal sites where they are required to pay taxes. Problems occur when there are not enough legal sites (because there are not enough).
However I still hear the same prejudices here. 'All they do is steal, they are all violent criminals, why should we pay for them' etc etc. And having spent a good deal of time with a gypsy family, I know all of these things to be untrue. Historically as well they have been persecuted to a huge degree.
So even though I can't really comment on the gypsy 'problem' in your country, am I going to just accept that they are all anti-social, violent criminals who do nothing but steal? No man, it'd take a lot of convincing. Because that's not my experience, of gypsies or just of people in general; I'd find it difficult to believe that any large group of people could all be thieves and criminals.
I will give you just one statistical number since i am sure you can use google as good as me and you can find all the info you want
According to last statistical data gypsies in Bulgaria are 4,9% of the population. And according to last few years crimes statistics 31% of all the crimes are made by gypsies. So do you think there is a problem?
On September 28 2011 20:39 The KY wrote: Ok fuck this thread too many people either concerned with the minimal difference between race and ethnicity (seriously who gives a fuck) or busy telling me what I do and do not know.
/caring.
you just trolled a thread with your abysmal stupidity and all you can say is /caring ???
The difference is not minimal, there's actually nothing in common. There was even a movement in France, 60-70 years ago, when people whose blood was not gypsy wanted to live "a life closer to nature's, closer to gypsies' way". Even though this movement seems to have disappeared, if it hadn't we'd be against it too, because it's gypsy culture.
On September 28 2011 20:39 The KY wrote: Ok fuck this thread too many people either concerned with the minimal difference between race and ethnicity (seriously who gives a fuck) or busy telling me what I do and do not know.
/caring.
"Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal" well yes it is, since the ancient greek word have the meaning "opposer of law". up to this day, they not just referred by others, but also referring to themselves with the same word. you certainly cared enough to show us how uninformed you are. however upon your request ill let you make a clown out of yourself and stop correcting.
here you go....
"The English term Gypsy (or Gipsy) originates from the Greek word for "Egyptian"
You sure told me.
But yeah man I've made a huge clown of myself, by relating my impression of gypsy people based on personal experience.
On September 28 2011 20:42 shell wrote: BTW i'm sorry for you bulgarian guys.. your goverment is way worse then the gipsys because they allow them to rule your country. It's not like that in Portugal since they are a small minority and don't have any political power or connections with the police. I wouldn't like to live in a country that works like yours and i bet you don't to.. so cheer up guys maybe someday it will change!
Well, if things keep up like they are... just for information, Bulgaria has 250000 licensed hunters, while the police force + army is barely 81000. So yeah, things will change, but it won't be pretty.
I'm racist against thiefs, drugdealers and murderers so that means i hate all the whites, blacks, asians and gipsys that fall under that.
The problem with the gipsys is that their lifestyle only allows them to be criminals, why you ask?
Because they won't work and since they don't cultivate, grow animals or actually have any skill that can bring them money legally besides all the subsidies they get from all the european government they have to commit crimes or they will die of food!
People don't get it but 90% of all gipsys are unemployed or even more! And they will never change because they don't allow their kids to go to school.
For instance the Amish.people live outside of their communitys in the states but they work for their food and they educate their children, see the difference.
BTW i'm sorry for you bulgarian guys.. your goverment is way worse then the gipsys because they allow them to rule your country. It's not like that in Portugal since they are a small minority and don't have any political power or connections with the police. I wouldn't like to live in a country that works like yours and i bet you don't to.. so cheer up guys maybe someday it will change!
People don't get it but 90% of all gipsys are unemployed or even more!
That statistic is wrong in case you are referring to the ethnic group of the Roma which is what the term Gypsy became synonymous with. Please don't use percentages unless you have some statistic actually reinforcing it.
There is a problem with their culture and it needs to be dealt with but using inflated figures and racist sounding statements is really not helping the cause.
On September 28 2011 20:39 The KY wrote: Ok fuck this thread too many people either concerned with the minimal difference between race and ethnicity (seriously who gives a fuck) or busy telling me what I do and do not know.
/caring.
you just trolled a thread with your abysmal stupidity and all you can say is /caring ???
The difference is not minimal, there's actually nothing in common. There was even a movement in France, 60-70 years ago, when people whose blood was not gypsy wanted to live "a life closer to nature's, closer to gypsies' way". Even though this movement seems to have disappeared, if it hadn't we'd be against it too, because it's gypsy culture.
I have posted with nothing but politeness and said nothing that I do not think to be true. I was merely pointing out that whether you want to call it racism or not, it is unimportant. I'll leave it to hypercube who said it much much better than me.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features?
FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it.
Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour.
As for people wanting to live like gypsies, because Roma gypsies are recognised under the Race Relations Act (once again, in my country), those people would not be gypsies. They would just be hippies in caravans. Travellers.
We in Germany have a much better strategy for the Roma plague that everyone can learn from. We pay them welfare, don't persecute their crimes, don't force their kids to go school and call everyone a Nazi who questions that strategy.
On September 28 2011 20:53 Fenrax wrote: We in Germany have a much better strategy for the Roma plague that everyone can learn from. We pay them welfare, don't persecute their crimes, don't force their kids to go school and call everyone a Nazi who questions that strategy.
hmm i guess all of europe must have copied your "Special tactics"
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features?
FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it.
Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour.
I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid.
You should read more carefully because there was a person who said just that. And a few who seem to be thinking along those lines.
And yes, people are stupid. My favourite is when a gypsy (by appearance) gets refused work because apparently they steal and don't like to work. Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to work showed up for an interview. I wonder what he's up to. Maybe he got tired leeching off the state and wants to find a poor employer instead.
I feel this is a very big problem in the western world. As soon as someone even suggests that a particular culture might not mingle well into society it's like all the leftwing activists jump from behind the trees and start screaming RACIST RACIST NAZIS RACIST NAZIS. It's disgusting really. Unless you're attributing character traits to a race instead of a culture, IT'S NOT RACIST.
As I said you should actually read what people write instead of skimming a few words and assuming they fit one of the few stereotypes you have. For the record I didn't say it was racism. I said that if you're over-generalizing (as a lot of people do) it doesn't matter.
On September 28 2011 20:39 The KY wrote: Ok fuck this thread too many people either concerned with the minimal difference between race and ethnicity (seriously who gives a fuck) or busy telling me what I do and do not know.
/caring.
"Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal" well yes it is, since the ancient greek word have the meaning "opposer of law". up to this day, they not just referred by others, but also referring to themselves with the same word. you certainly cared enough to show us how uninformed you are. however upon your request ill let you make a clown out of yourself and stop correcting.
here you go....
"The English term Gypsy (or Gipsy) originates from the Greek word for "Egyptian"
You sure told me.
But yeah man I've made a huge clown of myself, by relating my impression of gypsy people based on personal experience.
And besides, I've never even seen gypsies as an ethnic group or race. The translation of gypsy would be zigeuner in Dutch and that simply means someone living a nomadic life. The correct ethnical term would be Romani (as far as I know). When people refer to gypsies they mean the Romani people practicing the gypsy culture.
I'm sorry, but if you think only Roma who live a travelling lifestyle face prejudice you are simply uninformed.
On September 28 2011 20:39 The KY wrote: Ok fuck this thread too many people either concerned with the minimal difference between race and ethnicity (seriously who gives a fuck) or busy telling me what I do and do not know.
/caring.
"Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal" well yes it is, since the ancient greek word have the meaning "opposer of law". up to this day, they not just referred by others, but also referring to themselves with the same word. you certainly cared enough to show us how uninformed you are. however upon your request ill let you make a clown out of yourself and stop correcting.
here you go....
"The English term Gypsy (or Gipsy) originates from the Greek word for "Egyptian"
You sure told me.
But yeah man I've made a huge clown of myself, by relating my impression of gypsy people based on personal experience.
so show the greek word pls. =))))))
Αιγύπτιοι (Aigyptioi, whence modern Greek γύφτοι gifti)
On September 28 2011 20:39 The KY wrote: Ok fuck this thread too many people either concerned with the minimal difference between race and ethnicity (seriously who gives a fuck) or busy telling me what I do and do not know.
/caring.
"Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal" well yes it is, since the ancient greek word have the meaning "opposer of law". up to this day, they not just referred by others, but also referring to themselves with the same word. you certainly cared enough to show us how uninformed you are. however upon your request ill let you make a clown out of yourself and stop correcting.
here you go....
"The English term Gypsy (or Gipsy) originates from the Greek word for "Egyptian"
You sure told me.
But yeah man I've made a huge clown of myself, by relating my impression of gypsy people based on personal experience.
Etymology From Middle English Gypcyan, Old French gyptien (“Egyptian, gypsy”), from Latin Aegyptius, because it was wrongly believed that dark-skinned Gypsies came from Egypt. See Egyptian.
From Middle French Egypte, from Latin Ægyptus, from Ancient Greek Αἴγυπτος (Aígyptos), from Mycenaean Greek *aikupitos (nb. 𐁁𐀓𐀠𐀴𐀍 (aikupitijo) 'Egyptian'), from Late Egyptian Hikuptah 'Memphis', from Middle Egyptian ḥȝ.t kȝ ptḥ (Ḥaʔat-Kuʔ-Patāḥa), literally, 'The Temple of the Soul of Ptah', initially referring to Ptah's temple in the city of Memphis, a capital during the Middle Kingdom.
On September 28 2011 20:39 The KY wrote: Ok fuck this thread too many people either concerned with the minimal difference between race and ethnicity (seriously who gives a fuck) or busy telling me what I do and do not know.
/caring.
"Gypsy is not synonymous with criminal" well yes it is, since the ancient greek word have the meaning "opposer of law". up to this day, they not just referred by others, but also referring to themselves with the same word. you certainly cared enough to show us how uninformed you are. however upon your request ill let you make a clown out of yourself and stop correcting.
here you go....
"The English term Gypsy (or Gipsy) originates from the Greek word for "Egyptian"
You sure told me.
But yeah man I've made a huge clown of myself, by relating my impression of gypsy people based on personal experience.
so show the greek word pls. =))))))
Αιγύπτιοι (Aigyptioi, whence modern Greek γύφτοι gifti)
ατσιγανος (atsiganos). do the two words look the same for u?
"cigany", the word romani people refer to themselves comes from the greek word ατσιγανος (atsiganos). it translates forward to english as "gypsy", but for example in england irish travellers are also called to gypsys, however they are not cigany. as cigany is a cultural aspect of roma people. no one talked about where the "gypsy" word comes from, as they dont refer themselves to "gypsy", "egyptian" or whatever. they say "cigany".
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features?
FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it.
Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour.
I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid.
You should read more carefully because there was a person who said just that. And a few who seem to be thinking along those lines.
And yes, people are stupid. My favourite is when a gypsy (by appearance) gets refused work because apparently they steal and don't like to work. Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to work showed up for an interview. I wonder what he's up to. Maybe he got tired leeching off the state and wants to find a poor employer instead.
My point is that just because some people are racists shouldn't mean we should all abstain from discussing bad cultures.
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
Romania and Bulgaria are not members of the Schengen Agreement. Just sayin'
Schengen agreement relates mostly to merchandise transport and the external border of the EU. The moment a person enters Schengen space they will not be checked at borders anymore, no matter where he is from (been there, done that like 12 years ago during a trip through Europe). If you were from Turkey and you'd fly to Schengen via Romania you'd be checked both in RO and destination. If Romania was in Schengen then you'd only be checked in Romania. The only thing they check when I go on business trips anywhere in the EU is my ID, versus the long line for non-EU citizens.
For a EU citizen there isn't much difference between Schengen or not, for businesses there is.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What a joke.
So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh?
It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race".
Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex.
Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What a joke.
So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh?
It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race".
Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex.
Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
If the culture of Bretons is to lie, steal and rape and you hate them, because of that, its not a racism, but just a normal human reaction. I`ve dealt with gypsies whole my life and its in their culture to commit crimes, no matter that they can make nice music.
talking about roma musicians on this issue is just as clueless as you could get. musicians is a distinct class of romani people being admired by everyone for their skills and honest living. yes there is traditional musician romani families, i think noone have problem with them. the problem is the gypsy way of life what unfortunately most romani people practices...
Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex.
But if Jews ARE greedy and liars then that is a valid reason to label their culture as bad. If gypsy culture means stealing, begging and other kinds of shady things that means gypsy culture is bad. There is NOTHING racist about that. It becomes racist when you discriminate against functioning Roma people. And just so you know, you aren't born with a culture, you are born in a culture. You can change your culture but not your skin color. Therefore hatred against a culture is perfectly acceptable if the reasons for it are valid.
Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
According to all the Eastern Europeans gypsies are being given a chance but they don't take it. And besides, of course there are Roma people who are great human beings. That's why it's not racism, but hate against a culture (which may or may not be justified, but judging from the responses of Eastern Europeans it seems justified).
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features?
FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it.
Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour.
I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid.
You should read more carefully because there was a person who said just that. And a few who seem to be thinking along those lines.
And yes, people are stupid. My favourite is when a gypsy (by appearance) gets refused work because apparently they steal and don't like to work. Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to work showed up for an interview. I wonder what he's up to. Maybe he got tired leeching off the state and wants to find a poor employer instead.
My point is that just because some people are racists shouldn't mean we should all abstain from discussing bad cultures.
And my point is that this has nothing to do with my post. If it wasn't intended to be you might want to make that clear next time, or I might get confused again.
I am astonished how little most of the US/Canada citizens here think they understand the problem and why while it IS racist it's nothing like the racism you have.
The current problem is about an organized crime boss being untouchable for years and years because he can make his minions vote for any politic for something like 5 euro per person (the actual voter get about 1-2 euro). And those people are used last 20 years by any party. So this crime boss (well actually some of his people) killed 19 year boy who was trying to voice that they are criminals. And the riots actually started after said crime boss went on TV saying that if anyone else want to accuse him the same fate will follow.
I just wish to hear how this will be normal to happen in USA for example if said crime boss was black?
The bigger portion of this topic is about racism against gypsies in Bulgaria. First I will just state some facts: 1. It's norm for gypsy girls to marry at 12 and start having babies as soon as they can without stopping for as long as they can. Why is that? Here in Bulgaria for every child you get some money (i guess like in most countries) and if you have more children you get more money for every child you have untill it reach 18 years. So basically you get about 100 euro per month per child for 18 years. It does not matter if you have your own. I guess you can make the math by yourself? While your mother gets money for you, you get money for your own child....
And for reference minimal wage here is 120 euro.
2. There are countless programs that offer free education and food for gypsy children. The government even pay them to send their children to school. What happens? As soon the money are in their hand children stop attending school and start stealing/begging/drug dealing... And this goes on every year.
Those are some of the problems in big cities.
I will give some examples what happens in villages or small towns:
A mob of gypsies enters someones land. They take everything and when the person try to resist they beat him. After a few of those in one village old man (he is like 70 years old) shoot and killed the gypsy teenager who was stealing his sheep. This man was sued for murder because the boy was "returning" the sheep that was fled... In another incident an old man was killed by gypsy teenager who was stealing from his yard. The boy was found and released because he was self defending for the old man inside the old man's yard....
And the list goes on and on...
So you will ask how can this problem be fixed? It's easy. It was done by the communists. What they do was basically that: you are gypsy and believe you should be able to do whatever you want? FUCK YOU! YOU ARE COMMUNIST NOW AND WILL DO WHAT THE PARTY SAY! + Show Spoiler +
Is it the right thing to do with people? Hell no. Is it the only working solution known so far for gypsy? Hell yes.
P.S. And something else i forgot to mention. Every Bulgarian citizen should pay for electricity/water/public transport BUT the gypsy does not. Why? Because when the companies try to stop water/electricity somewhere mobs of gypsies gather in basically every major city, some gypsy leaders start chanting that they are being looked like second hand people and the government makes exeption and let them have whatever was stopped being promissed that they will pay "later".
So excuse me for being racist but when i am treated like an idiot that will pay everything for someone and i can't say no i will hate him.
I think this is a fundamentally important fact and needs more discussion--it's basically a demonstration that gypsies can indeed function in a society when the proper social incentives are provided and the rule of law is enforced.
In the soviet era gypsies were much more integrated than they are now, petty crime and illiteracy still existed but were nowhere endemic as they are now, most of them had jobs and families generally had less than four children. That's not to say that the social structure was any good, but can be used as an argument that not allowing them to form a parallel society does lead to better outcome to everyone involved, most of all the average gypsy themselves.
Still, I as I said in my previous post, this misunderstanding of multiculturalism is not the main cause of current situation. But adhering to the hypocritically "politically-correct" way of speaking and hesitating to enforce the rule of law in fear of being labeled "racist", the political elites of Europe (and Bulgaria in particular) have given rise to the far-right extremists, which in itself is a much more dangerous problem.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features?
FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it.
Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour.
I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid.
You should read more carefully because there was a person who said just that. And a few who seem to be thinking along those lines.
And yes, people are stupid. My favourite is when a gypsy (by appearance) gets refused work because apparently they steal and don't like to work. Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to work showed up for an interview. I wonder what he's up to. Maybe he got tired leeching off the state and wants to find a poor employer instead.
My point is that just because some people are racists shouldn't mean we should all abstain from discussing bad cultures.
And my point is that this has nothing to do with my post. If it wasn't intended to be you might want to make that clear next time, or I might get confused again.
Then what was your point? I've read your post multiple times but I can't seem to figure it out.
I'm sorry for all the USians ranting about comparisons between this and blacks treatment. I'm sorry because at no point in my life have I ever considered or thought about someone of a different skin color as being inferior. Unlike your culture it's not a matter that stemmed from the gypsies being considered an inferior race.
There is nothing that you could say or show me that will make me change my mind about the fact that currently the gypsy culture is an outsider culture, with no nationality traits, a world of their own. That most consider doing anything in their power to survive as right. Be it abusing their children, stealing, killing. Their clans are the one ruler and there's nothing wrong with breaking the rules of the current society they live in.
To this I add that I have always given everyone the benefit of the doubt. I managed to get along just fine with plenty of people and wouldn't discriminate one person. But unfortunately gypsies are the ones that broke my trust more than any other (them being a minority you see that there's a discrepancy here). Call me naive but I still don't want to judge everyone by experience.
The oddest thing though. Why do muslims manage to integrate romanian society so well and gypsies don't. Yet you seem to have so many issues with them in the civilized west.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features?
FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it.
Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour.
I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid.
You should read more carefully because there was a person who said just that. And a few who seem to be thinking along those lines.
And yes, people are stupid. My favourite is when a gypsy (by appearance) gets refused work because apparently they steal and don't like to work. Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to work showed up for an interview. I wonder what he's up to. Maybe he got tired leeching off the state and wants to find a poor employer instead.
My point is that just because some people are racists shouldn't mean we should all abstain from discussing bad cultures.
And my point is that this has nothing to do with my post. If it wasn't intended to be you might want to make that clear next time, or I might get confused again.
Then what was your point? I've read your post multiple times but I can't seem to figure it out.
My point was that many people think that almost all Roma steal and can't function in society. Whether you call that racism or something else, it doesn't matter. It's the same kind of wrong either way.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features?
FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it.
Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour.
I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid.
You should read more carefully because there was a person who said just that. And a few who seem to be thinking along those lines.
And yes, people are stupid. My favourite is when a gypsy (by appearance) gets refused work because apparently they steal and don't like to work. Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to work showed up for an interview. I wonder what he's up to. Maybe he got tired leeching off the state and wants to find a poor employer instead.
My point is that just because some people are racists shouldn't mean we should all abstain from discussing bad cultures.
And my point is that this has nothing to do with my post. If it wasn't intended to be you might want to make that clear next time, or I might get confused again.
Then what was your point? I've read your post multiple times but I can't seem to figure it out.
My point was that many people think that almost Roma steal and can't function in society. Whether you call that racism or something else, it doesn't matter. It's the same kind of wrong either way.
If we define Roma as the ethnical group and gypsy as the culture, then yes, you are right.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What a joke.
So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh?
It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race".
Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex.
Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
Uh, if all britons actually are liars, thieves and pedophiles, then its perfectly valid for you to hate them. If all jews actually are greedy and bent on world domination, likewise. If all men are all rapists and oppressors, same as well. The correct response, when something truly vile exists, is to destroy it utterly. The thing is, those stereotypes are false.
That said, cultural relativism is utter crap. A culture that condones honour killings is worse than one that does not, holding all else equal. A culture that promotes narcissism is worse than one that does not. A culture that promotes generosity is better than one that does not. A culture that condones thievery is worse than one that does not. A culture that condones rape is worse than one that does not. A culture that condones dishonesty is worse than one that does not. And so on.
We not only have the right to judge others, but we have the duty to do so. We also have the right to feel however we want about others and the right to have nothing to do with them. You have the right to feel however you want about us too. What a happy circle.
As for the Roma. I don't know, I don't care. Not my problem.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What a joke.
So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh?
It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race".
Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex.
Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
Some cultures are simply inferior. The difference between disliking something people do and disliking a race should be obvious to everyone though. In one you examine an action which is something which can be quantified, assessed and judged as positive or negative in a relatively objective way. Regarding the other there is no statistical evidence for there being any genetic cultural practices. Therefore if you subscribe to it you're an idiot.
For example. "female circumcision is disgusting, sexist, brutal and inhuman, the people who practice it, mainly indigenous African cultures, should be condemned". In contrast "blacks are inhuman and should be condemned".
Can you see the difference?
I have just as little patience for different ethnicities of traveller (they exist, it's not just the Romani). It's the culture that pisses me off, not the skin colour or anything like that. And not all cultures are equal.
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What if you start to assume that people share those cultural characteristics because they share the racial features?
FWIW, there are people who will claim that gypsies are genetically predisposed towards criminal or antisocial behaviour. But many will say that because they feel blaming it on culture is PC. In the end it's not really an opinion just something they will say because they feel gypsies "deserve" it.
Which is why the whole racism debate is unhelpful. It is what is: prejudice based on experience generalized to most or all members of the group who share the same appearance. Whether you think it should be called racism or not shouldn't change your moral judgement of the sort of behaviour.
I haven't seen anyone other than Cloud say that because someone is gypsy that person is scum. People who assume every Romani person is scum are stupid. Just like people who assume every black person steals are stupid.
You should read more carefully because there was a person who said just that. And a few who seem to be thinking along those lines.
And yes, people are stupid. My favourite is when a gypsy (by appearance) gets refused work because apparently they steal and don't like to work. Yeah, the guy who doesn't want to work showed up for an interview. I wonder what he's up to. Maybe he got tired leeching off the state and wants to find a poor employer instead.
My point is that just because some people are racists shouldn't mean we should all abstain from discussing bad cultures.
And my point is that this has nothing to do with my post. If it wasn't intended to be you might want to make that clear next time, or I might get confused again.
Then what was your point? I've read your post multiple times but I can't seem to figure it out.
My point was that many people think that almost Roma steal and can't function in society. Whether you call that racism or something else, it doesn't matter. It's the same kind of wrong either way.
If we define Roma as the ethnical group and gypsy as the culture, then yes, you are right.
Not sure about the rest of Eastern Europe but in Hungary we use the same word for both. It's not a black and white issue either. Some groups might share some cultural values (like close family ties, relative isolation) but not others, like completely ignoring the law.
Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex.
But if Jews ARE greedy and liars then that is a valid reason to label their culture as bad. If gypsy culture means stealing, begging and other kinds of shady things that means gypsy culture is bad. There is NOTHING racist about that. It becomes racist when you discriminate against functioning Roma people. And just so you know, you aren't born with a culture, you are born in a culture. You can change your culture but not your skin color. Therefore hatred against a culture is perfectly acceptable if the reasons for it are valid.
Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
According to all the Eastern Europeans gypsies are being given a chance but they don't take it. And besides, of course there are Roma people who are great human beings. That's why it's not racism, but hate against a culture (which may or may not be justified, but judging from the responses of Eastern Europeans it seems justified).
Funny. So... Racism is not racism if it's right. You are saying, if Jews are indeed greedy, it's not racist, if they are not, it is. Your argument about changing culture is ridiculous. I hate Jews but I'm fine if they converted and don't follow Jewish tradition anymore. That's LOL
I give you another interpretation of what you are saying, the way I hear it: racists always claim they are not racists, that they just state facts. That's the opinion of every racist in the world. People who pretend to "just hate a culture" are the most conventional and mainstream racists.
As I said earlier, I know fantastic Gypsy musicians. Nobody is more into the Gypsy culture than them. And, surprise! They don't steal, they are not pedophile and they are very loyal. Oh, wait, they are not uber-poor because they managed to get a job.
On September 28 2011 22:16 vasatko2 wrote: i would like to note this picture about Slovakian political party campaign advert
The advert says "Don't feed those who don't want to work"
Here you can see a proof that it's a problem all over the Europe
Yeah, I can see a proof that far right is just as disgusting in Czech Rpublic as it is with Switzerland or France. Well, for us, it's black people and Muslims who are lazy and want to steal your money.
Fun fact, our far-right was saying exactly the same about Polish people and eastern European Jews in the 20's 30's; when they were a minority of immigrant in France. The exact same crap: they don't want to integrate, they are dishonest, they are lazy, etc... Oh, well, I guess Polish people were fine after all. Now it's Arabs. Or Gypsies. I wonder if we will need concentration camps again to remember that this racist crap is maybe not a good idea.
On September 28 2011 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 28 2011 20:15 KwarK wrote:
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What a joke.
So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh?
It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race".
Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex.
Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
Some cultures are simply inferior. The difference between disliking something people do and disliking a race should be obvious to everyone though. In one you examine an action which is something which can be quantified, assessed and judged as positive or negative in a relatively objective way. Regarding the other there is no statistical evidence for there being any genetic cultural practices. Therefore if you subscribe to it you're an idiot.
For example. "female circumcision is disgusting, sexist, brutal and inhuman, the people who practice it, mainly indigenous African cultures, should be condemned". In contrast "blacks are inhuman and should be condemned".
Can you see the difference?
I have just as little patience for different ethnicities of traveller (they exist, it's not just the Romani). It's the culture that pisses me off, not the skin colour or anything like that. And not all cultures are equal.
Some cultures are inferior.
That's interesting. I wonder if Gypsies think your culture is superior or inferior. I guess Jewish culture was inferior sixty years ago, but now it's superior. Superior to Muslim culture, who was superior than European culture three hundred years ago.
Oh I get it. You culture is superior if you are the strongest, the wealthiest and the most dominant.
Seriously Kwark. You believe this crap? On what criteria do you define "objectively" a culture as being superior. I don't find us superior to anyone, to be honest.
Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Funny. So... Racism is not racism if it's right. You are saying, if Jews are indeed greedy, it's not racist, if they are not, it is. Your argument about changing culture is ridiculous. I hate Jews but I'm fine if they converted and don't follow Jewish tradition anymore. That's LOL
You are just completely misunderstanding what I'm saying.
What we have: - Jewish as a culture - Jewish as an ethnicity
Let's say Jewish culture means stealing, raping and murdering unbelievers. So, the Jewish culture is an inferior one. Nothing racist so far. Now someone comes along and says "All Jewish people, regardless of whether they practice the Jewish culture, are bastards and should be exterminated.". Now that's racism.
In this thread people are saying the gypsy culture is bad. That is completely fine. What would not be fine (and what would be racism) is people saying that people from Romani ethnicity are bad, end of.
Do you get the difference? Now stop screaming RACISM RACISM NAZIS RACISM NAZIS and stop to think about it for a moment.
Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Good lord, you don't actually believe this do you? EVERYTHING could be defended using this line of reasoning. "Serial killers are disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your peaceful ideas." You NEED some sort of moral basis or else you're just floating.
Yeah, I can see a proof that far right is just as disgusting in Czech Rpublic as it is with Switzerland or France. Well, for us, it's black people and Muslims who are lazy and want to steal your money.
it's not Czech party, it's Slovak (although i would be happy if it be a Czech party) And your right that the true about gypsies is disgusting, far right is only pointing at it
On September 28 2011 00:53 Mohdoo wrote: Can someone elaborate on what exactly a gypsy.. is? I don't get it. I'm having a hard time finding a definition which seems to fit what's being talked about in this thread.
a gypsy is so,eone who comes from romania/bulgaria but is actually a different ethnicity, their skin is darker then the romanians/bulgarians. they are a society of thieves, crooks and drug peddlers, they like to live in caravans leeching off of people and robbing them, they will do anything for money and they do not do this out of necessity (gypsie towing caravans with BMW X5 sup) but rather because they like it and are proud of this bullshit crap they pull.
there is only one defense agaisnt gypsies, guard dogs. they hate dogs
A bit harsh maybe
But you can watch this BBC documentary called "Gypsy Child Thieves" (focuses mainly on gypsies in spain/france/italy).
Shows some of the problems that people have with gypsies. Very good documentary if you are confused as to why so many people dislike gypsies, explains a lot.
Wow. I just watched the video. I had no idea it could be that bad. Im glad Ive never personally had any problems with them.
I remember a friend of mine told me that he packed his trailer next to a camp of theirs thinking "I guess theyre nice people like everone else. The moment he left his car kids started streaming to his truck to steal.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 28 2011 22:16 vasatko2 wrote: i would like to note this picture about Slovakian political party campaign advert
The advert says "Don't feed those who don't want to work"
Here you can see a proof that it's a problem all over the Europe
Yeah, I can see a proof that far right is just as disgusting in Czech Rpublic as it is with Switzerland or France. Well, for us, it's black people and Muslims who are lazy and want to steal your money.
Fun fact, our far-right was saying exactly the same about Polish people and eastern European Jews in the 20's 30's; when they were a minority of immigrant in France. The exact same crap: they don't want to integrate, they are dishonest, they are lazy, etc... Oh, well, I guess Polish people were fine after all. Now it's Arabs. Or Gypsies. I wonder if we will need concentration camps again to remember that this racist crap is maybe not a good idea.
On September 28 2011 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 28 2011 20:15 KwarK wrote:
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What a joke.
So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh?
It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race".
Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex.
Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
Some cultures are simply inferior. The difference between disliking something people do and disliking a race should be obvious to everyone though. In one you examine an action which is something which can be quantified, assessed and judged as positive or negative in a relatively objective way. Regarding the other there is no statistical evidence for there being any genetic cultural practices. Therefore if you subscribe to it you're an idiot.
For example. "female circumcision is disgusting, sexist, brutal and inhuman, the people who practice it, mainly indigenous African cultures, should be condemned". In contrast "blacks are inhuman and should be condemned".
Can you see the difference?
I have just as little patience for different ethnicities of traveller (they exist, it's not just the Romani). It's the culture that pisses me off, not the skin colour or anything like that. And not all cultures are equal.
Some cultures are inferior.
That's interesting. I wonder if Gypsies think your culture is superior or inferior. I guess Jewish culture was inferior sixty years ago, but now it's superior. Superior to Muslim culture, who was superior than European culture three hundred years ago.
Oh I get it. You culture is superior if you are the strongest, the wealthiest and the most dominant.
Seriously Kwark. You believe this crap? On what criteria do you define "objectively" a culture as being superior. I don't find us superior to anyone, to be honest.
Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
Did you watch the video ? I was really shocked and I can see why people despise the adults living like that.
On September 28 2011 10:14 StarBrift wrote: Can people actually stop reffering to them as "Gypsies"? It's ridiculously racist and not in the slightest even remotely close to what they call themselves / want to be called. Do you people actually use the N word for black people aswell so freely and without thought?
The Romani has a bad rep in sweden aswell but we don't use derogatory names to demean them even if they sometimes to act outside the law (allthough not often so in sweden admittably).
The problem with the logic from east europeans here on the board is that you are blaming one minority group for the huge failure of your entire societal system. As many of you allready mentioned the corruption in the government is a huge problem and without that these problems wouldn't exist in the first place. Granted there are corruption to certain degrees in every government but clearly more so in certain countries and the Balkan countries / the rest of eastern europe does not have a good track record when it comes to democracy.
So how about yopu start focusing on the real problem and support protests against the governments instead of riots against a minority of people that has no influence over the countries fate anyway. You shouldn't be half as mad at criminal Romani as you should be at the goverment that lets it happen.
Just please, stop calling people Gypsies. It's incredibly racist and clearly pointless. It only breeds more hatred.
Oh, and your great country was very successful, it deported them back where they came from. GJ, now where would the rest of us deport them?
exactly. some countries have deported them back to balkans and no one made any problem regarding that and if any balkan country or any eastern european country tries to deport them to somewhere else then it would have been a major problem.
In Bulgaria, a small example how communist mafia>government>police>gypsie relation can go; you own a car and after some time it gets stolen. oh yes every car in bulgaria got stolen atleast once. you have had a government forced insurance that u have to pay from time to time to the government which gives you the licence aswell, which makes your car registrated. anyway when your car is stolen, you are pretty sure that it is stolen by gypsies. if you go to the police and report it, they will tell you it will take some time to find it if we can even. your government pays the insurance where that money goes to the police because as soon as you receive the government insurance, police appears with your car lol. same with car example, many stolen goods are actually tracked and controlled by the police which are partners in crime with gypsies. but they cant do anything because government always acts the blind-deaf monkey thanks to the mafia behind it. you cant believe how eastern europe is corrupt as hell.
In Turkey, when todays liberal-conservative government got elected at 2002, they have offered gypsies one last chance to live like any other citizen, %99 of the gypsies yet again continued to do what they do. as a result, they have been deported to bulgaria/greece. goverment demolished their trash huts and built proper housing there and now the %1 of the remaining is living there, paying taxes and doing no crime at all.
In Serbia, current power in the government is the democratic party. Irony is that them being democrats, there is no proper democratic constitution. there are some good articles within regarding human rights but still there are other ridiculous articles such as the president is chief of the army at the same time. anyway serbia has been accepting many bulgarians to the country recently, any bulgarians can confirm that aswell here and all the reason was how those bulgarians are fleeing to serbia because of bulgarian mega corrupt government. serbian government is corrupt aswell but atleast there is no major gypsie leaders who can control lots of power but still the gypsies in serbia are living the same way as any other in the region. but if serbia dont deport gypsies out it is very soon that serbia will get to the same level as bulgarians and romanians regarding the gypsie issue, amount of problems are very close to it anyway.
while In Croatia, government have followed a similar way such as some western european countries and turkey regarding gypsies and deported big amount of them to neighbours where they believe they came from and having tensions with the living minorty. not so much ago the croat government wanted to burn down, yes literally burn down with torches, their trash village because they are really not wanted there.
i can go in more details in all eastern european countries regarding what both sides and especially governments are doing regarding the issue. yet again i say, it is not racism. it is pure nationalism since gypsies refuse to accept your nationality and refuse your government, refuse the countries and the borders in the whole eastern europe. comparing gypsies to the blacks in america is also very stupid. no one is putting gypsies to slavery in Europe. they have same rights as the people who they live with. hell even have extra rights because of being minorities.
Europeans in this thread are posting with huge hate because they want justice, not because they hate their dark brown skin and dark hair. They want justice that they dont want intruders and criminals to live with double standarts while they have to pay taxes so the money goes to these gypsies kids, local people have to tolerate them because they are humans regardless of how big crimes they are doing on the society. they want justice because they dont want their kids or even themselves to be pulled in by force to the prostitution, armed robberies and assaults, drug sellers and organ mafias. they want justice because where they live the local companies like from groceries, bars to small government funded services like bus transportation and many more stuff that is suffering from the gypsies barbaric way of living but still tolerating their crimes and asking a stagnant government to sort this issue with patiently for years.
so people who are shitting about racism, just zip it and let the europeans ask for their justice. because they rightfully deserve it to the every drop.
Thank you for this post, Reyis. May I ask where are you from?
multi-national, but to put it right i am american although america doesnt love me :p
Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex.
But if Jews ARE greedy and liars then that is a valid reason to label their culture as bad. If gypsy culture means stealing, begging and other kinds of shady things that means gypsy culture is bad. There is NOTHING racist about that. It becomes racist when you discriminate against functioning Roma people. And just so you know, you aren't born with a culture, you are born in a culture. You can change your culture but not your skin color. Therefore hatred against a culture is perfectly acceptable if the reasons for it are valid.
Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
According to all the Eastern Europeans gypsies are being given a chance but they don't take it. And besides, of course there are Roma people who are great human beings. That's why it's not racism, but hate against a culture (which may or may not be justified, but judging from the responses of Eastern Europeans it seems justified).
Funny. So... Racism is not racism if it's right. You are saying, if Jews are indeed greedy, it's not racist, if they are not, it is. Your argument about changing culture is ridiculous. I hate Jews but I'm fine if they converted and don't follow Jewish tradition anymore. That's LOL
I give you another interpretation of what you are saying, the way I hear it: racists always claim they are not racists, that they just state facts. That's the opinion of every racist in the world. People who pretend to "just hate a culture" are the most conventional and mainstream racists.
As I said earlier, I know fantastic Gypsy musicians. Nobody is more into the Gypsy culture than them. And, surprise! They don't steal, they are not pedophile and they are very loyal. Oh, wait, they are not uber-poor because they managed to get a job.
You are right about this but this is not the situation with the Gipsys(ciganos) they are more like this:
Low education level (because they don't allow their kids to go to school) + Poverty (because they don't work) - Social subsidies (given to them to help them integrate+houses(Portugal atleast) = remain uneducated -> exclusion + crime = racism
get the diference??
Ricardo Quaresma(Sporting, Porto, Barcelona, Inter, Chelsea) is a cigano(gipsy) footballer of portuguese romani fathers and his father explored him and his brother(who was better then him btw) into football! So here is a cigano that works and has a good talent. Do you think he won't put his children to school? Of course he will because he understants that his lifestyle his better for his children then living on street begging for money.
This is not against romani people that try and improve their lifes.. This is against the romani people that follow the gipsy way of not working, not getting a education, commiting crimes etc..
I am not a communist at all, but let me tell you. There was no problem with gypsies during communism, they could not do whatever the fuck they wanted and they had respect for other people and lived in a harmony with them, because they knew nobody would fuck around with them. Nowadays with all our liberties and rights - they became what they are nowadays. They are untouchable and do whatever they want and if they get hurt, they say it's a racism. I know just a few of them who live normal life, have regular job and their neighbours actually like them and respect them.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
on the etymology arguments a page or so back, the greek word for gypsy is tsigganos (τσιγγάνος) or more properly athigganos (αθίγγανος) and it actually means untouchable
the word was coined during the byzantium era to describe members of a religious cult
there is another word, giftos (γύφτος) which refers to the same people and owes its etymology to egypt, as apparently some gypsies travelled from egypt to byzantium (giftos (γύφτος -- aigiptios (αιγύπτιος) )
edit: the english and spanish words for gypsy derive from giftos and egypt in general, while the french and german words are more closely related to tsigganos instead
I must say it saddens me greatly to find that I actually agree with the majority of people posting concerns about the general Roma culture. Even in my home country of Norway, we have seen an explosion of roma drifters in our cities. They are generally very aggressive beggars and stalk ATM machines to steal from whoever is trying to withdraw cash. The public debate has been going on for a few years about how to deal with the issues. The main problem,however, is that these people have no intererest in becoming citizens of our nation and are here without any permit or passports, making prosecutions hard. Some cities have even made public begging against the law! I admit that I am totally clueless to how we can solve this problem. They won`t stay in one place, the kids don`t go to school,and they refuse to work. How can we effectivly combat this undoubtably unhealthy lifestyle?
Its really easy to hate on gypsies. Really Really easy.
However, that being said. When I used to live in Switzerland we lived near the boarder with France. Just across the boarder were camps that the gypsies used to use 3-4 times a year when they migrated around. During the time when they were camping there they would send their underage kids e.g. 12-14 years old across the boarder at night on scooters to break into and steal from houses in Switzerland. Some people got hurt resisting and stuff, getting stabbed with a knife or a screwdriver (what they were using to break into places). We have had break-in attempts at my house and the house next-door to me had 3 motorcycles stolen at night by these people.
Anyone who is here to defend people that steal and murder obviously hasn't been hassled, broken into, stabbed or murdered yet.. That being said I am all supporting of people and their lifestyles just when someone's lifestyle can directly negatively impact someone else's then there is a problem in my eyes.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
No actually some cultures are just inferior. When cultures look down on women and abuse children etc it is inferior. You just have to accept that. If you dont then you're saying that all cultures = equal which, you know, is a pretty stupid thing to say.
I dont know how it doesnt make sense.
Edit: ahh, this thread is moving more and more off topic
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
We're not saying the gypsy culture is inferior. We're just saying its undesirable.
Why is it undesirable? Read all the pages in the thread.
Relatives to a gypsy lord have killed a 19yo old boy. The Gypsy lord (Tzar Kiro, btw Tzar (Czar, Car etc) means king) is known for being one of the lords of the gypsy mafia in Bulgaria, and mb eastern Europe as well. First was said that his grandson have killed the victim, after that they found that it was some nonamed 50 year old gypsy who publicly said "I thought i was hitting a dog with the car". For the past years Tzar Kiro and his relatives were terorrizing the village where they are leaving.
So the reaction of the ppl was to protest against their "neighbours" aka Tzar Kiro's family and etc.
This went into mass "riots" in many cities across the country against Tzar Kiro. Well... ppl everywhere are totally pissed of the "gypsy issue" and started protesting against the unfair situation where gypsy > normal citizen who is paying his taxes, going to work/school and as u understand being robbed on daily basis.
So atm the protest idea is evolving. From: "Tzar Kiro go away from Katunitsa" Into: "Cigani (gypsies) start to pay and work or gtfo"
The problem is there that the government is too weak and prefer to get money from mafia instead to work on the problem.
If I can make paralel it's something like Greece and it's economy problems born ~2000.
The response from the gypsy community (the reach gypsies got the word) is that it's getting ezier for them to answer and soon the responses will be: From: "We won't go away from Katunitsa (the village)" Into: "You are discriminating us so you will need to pay us for ur racism"
And just because the government is too weak to handle the situation in proper way it's gonna be this way.
Soooo If u say that these riots are based on racist conceptions you should undestand that you are just nothing more then a dissembler. Imagine there is a gang in your school which terrorizes you almost everyday and is unpunished. What would you do? A: I won't do anything cause that's racist... They are beating and stealing me but that's there culture! B: Go to the principle, talk with the other guys in school, and take any measures which u can imagine just to have the opportunity to live they way you should live.
P.S. Just to note - two of the gypsy lords i recall atm are Tzar Kiro (Kiril Rashkov) and Tsvetelin Kanchev. They both have been in prison... Do you think it's a coincidence that such people are leading most of the gypsies in Bulgaria? I think not.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
You are wrong. Some cultures are just inferior to others.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
So according to your cultural relativism we should never condemn anything that is a widespread practice in another culture? Then by this logic there is nothing objectively wrong with teaching young children to steal and not letting them go to school and making them sift through garbage all day and sell drugs. It's just that we don't understand their culture right?
And I guess there's also nothing objectively wrong with caning or stoning to death or burning with acid a woman who has been raped, it's just that we also don't understand their culture, right?
Also I suppose there's nothing objectively wrong with raping a virgin believing that it will cure you of AIDS. It's just were too locked into our scientific knowledge to understand a broader worldview, am I correct or way off base here?
On September 28 2011 23:38 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 28 2011 23:10 Dfgj wrote:
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
You are wrong. Some cultures are just inferior to others.
video explains perfectly why some cultures (it mainly focuses on religious cultures, but the point remains the same) are inferior.
It's not possible to go down the line of thinking you're doing right now. You'll find yourself justifying murder and rape along the road.
And here i thought people playing starcraft were clever enough to recognize that cultural differences along with racial or simply intelectual ones needed to be respected. Here i read this and I feel like reading some extreme board on an obscure site somewhere on the Internet, except people are not banned when they defend the minorities.
I will not judge a whole community by the deeds of some. "Oh my god, Deezer cheats, all the starcraft 2 player will cheat, please ban them from The Internet !"
The danger of extremes is the generalization leading to the hatred of masses, and sometimes to the extreme decisions that are made because of a minority of extreme extremist followed by lesser extremist but far more numerous. Playing with the fear of people is usually the way those guys operate, fear of unemployment, fear of state bankrupcy, fear of stealing, fear of rape, fear of <insert here whatever you fear>.
Reading this topic i felt strange about myself, for being part of such a strange generation. While Internet destroyed borders people from everywhere in the world started talking to each other and nation-wide racism disappeared alltogether, but cultural discrimination stayed up and valliant wether it's an arbitrary non-geeky culture or simply people with different ways to live.
I'm sorry to say that but a lot of gipsies are good people, and you're insulting them all while we should just make sur countries stop the one who are actually comitting crimes... A few years back i broke my bike near a camp of gipsies, falling and breaking an arm and two libs, they brought me to an hospital and when i came back to thank them two weeks later, the gave my bycicle back. Not all people are bad, wether or not you want it, some make mistakes, some are criminals, others are terrorists, and some destroy whole country economies, but you should never ever generalize something.
I'm feeling bad as a man after reading all that i read on this topic, and I really hope some dood didn't link me here by pointing as this topic after reading Cloud statements. Do people really need to talk to WW2 surivivors to know what extreme can lead to ?! Do people still need such an atrocious thing to happen again before they stop saying such stupid statements.
For you personal culture, you should all go look at what europeans thought about jews between 1880 and the 1950s everywhere in the EU even in England, Spain and scandinavia. Nazis didn't invent antisemitism, they used it as a fuel to obtain the power in Germany, they used the fear created by normal politicians from that time. Why this fuel exists ? Simply because a lot of rich/powerful families were jews, people envied them, and politics/kings/lords used this envy as a tool to obtain more power by enducing fear of them, diminishing their fortune or their power by making masses to fear and then to hate them. It was easier then because a lot of people were uneducated but still reading such statements now is hope-breaking.
EU politicians from our time are pointing fingers towards gypsies, using the fear of people to promote themselves, they will ensure the dominance of some extremist one day, and I don't want to live that day.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
This would mean that morally reprehensible acts such as rape, genocide, and torture are completely ethical so long as a culture supports them. It also implies that a culture cannot be morally misguided because morals are culturally dependent. Furthermore, it suggests that no moral objection can be made to any group that identifies as a culture performing any action they deem suitable within their community.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
So all values are relative except for the value of not condemning other cultures? Sounds plausible...
I'll never understand why moral relativists think that their view implies some form of compassion for other cultures rather than the hegemony of whatever your culture happens to say, whether or not what it says condemns those other cultures.
The biggest problem is here, IMHO, that the Bulgarian government does not serve Bulgarian people, but some financial or criminal groups instead. People have right to demand the government to protect their interests. If the government not willing to do so, then people have to act. Bulgarians, do not expect that the West understands or supports you. They have their own interests (keep the gipsies outside), and their own believes (attack on an ethnic group is bad, racism, etc. no matter what). Keep fighting for your rights. If you unite, you can ask gipsies out, can ask the government out. It is your land, your country, you are the vast majority. If you are afraid to act, than you deserve that gipsies and the corrupt government rule you. The government will not let the situation unfold up to a kind of revolution of course. They arrested Rashkov and I guess will reach agreement with him that they have to "punish" him in some way to cool the people down. After some time it will come back to "normal", like it was before.
Gypsies are a problem there because they don't work, they don't go to school, they commit crimes often and they depend on government's help. They're pretty useless if they can't live and pay taxes like normal people.
When I posted my reply on page 13 I had not read all of the replies here. Jesus Christ, liberals, just come off it. You're having people from like 10 countries (eastern AND WESTERN Europe) and 2-3 races basically telling you the exact same thing. In addition to my post on page 13 I would like to ask all the peace loving liberals what else should Europe give to the gypsies? What hasn't been given to them already? Our mothers? Our paychecks? Our blood? The teeth in our mouths? If 20 million or so romanians pack up and leave the patch of earth their ancestors spilt lakes of their own blood over for 900+ years, will that finally be enough? Will that be PC? Would we finally be better than Hitler? Anyone who claims that this would never happen in the US and Canada and that those countries have mad skills at integrating immigrants would be singing an entirely different song if they had half the gypsies eastern Europe has. Western Europe had the exact same preachy attitude before Romania and Bulgaria were part of the EU, things are very different now. And I'm not even talking about the deportation. I'm talking about the fact that even white romanians are very likely to face discrimination in western Europe for no reason other than being from that place where all the gypsies come from. If that's the case with romanians then consider the amount of hatred they have for gypsies in western Europe, a place that was preaching tolerance and equality just a few years ago. And if americans and canadians think that their countries would've acted differently they need to lay off the horse tranquilizers.
Another thing I forgot to mention in my initial post is that at least one if not more gypsy mafiosos are in cahoots with the romanian president. And they're very open about it, it's not a conspiracy theory. There's plenty of footage showing him interacting with the president, his wife and his brother. And yes, he's a criminal not a business man, he's illiterate. I'm saying this as an answer to the people asking how are gypsies different from blacks or mexicans in America.
So just stop telling everybody how to solve their problems, you don't have to have an opinion about EVERYTHING. Especially about people you haven't had any contact with that live in countries you know nothing about and couldn't even identify on the map. I'M SO INFORMED ON THE SUBJECT OF INTEGRATING GYPSIES IN BULGARIA I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHERE IT IS! Just stop. If you were to come here and live the life, walk the streets and watch the news for no more than 1 year the disillusionment would hit you so brutally you would crawl under a rock and die from embarrassment for spewing such nonsense.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
Of course a culture that practices excision and the systematic repression of women and is permeated with xenophobia, racism, and religious supremacism is inferior to one that is not.
It has to do with cultural values not being more important than individual freedom and dignity.
Talking like Biff does about how using another culture's perspective is wrong denies the existence of a common humanity and a universal level of respect and autonomy that all humans are entitled to, something that crosses cultures. Identifying this with Western culture alone, rather than being a contribution of Western culture to the understanding of humanity in general is, well, typical of the extreme left mindset that runs off deconstruction and obfuscation.
Personally I think no one should be allowed to criticize capitalism because that's our culture and if you don't like it you're just racist against us. Why are you racist like that Biff? It's our culture you have no right to judge.
this aint about liberals either guy, im very definitely liberal in almost all my views, gypsies are really an extremely niche phenomenon that some people have little experience of
again, preventing the children from having a solid chance at life is what settles it for me, this is absolutely reprehensible and its not an exception that this happens, rather the rule
Wow blahblahblahwhatever i didnt know our president is so famous beyond our borders, even the relations whit the gypsies are known.As a fact this week one of his close friends, a gypsie mafia boss was arrested and the presidents brother sent the famillys lawyer to defend him.Im sad to say but my country sux big time, and while the president is involved in such things, chances are nothing will change pretty soon.As they say, the fish begins to rot from the head. The western countries from the EU talk about discrimination and how to integrate gypsies into society, but they dont do anything about it, in fact France is giving gypsies 300 euros and sending them back to their home countries...gg bro, and they create so called discrimination and integration societies imposing stupid rules in Romania and Bulgaria, rules that even they dont obey or belive in them.
Anyone who thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with these Gypsy clans and anyone who criticizes them is racist should watch the entirety of this video that was posted earlier:
Selling off 12 year old daughters for marriage, forcing children as young as 10 to beg and steal all day, keeping children locked up at night as slaves etc.
Seriously saying someone is racist for criticizing these things is as stupid as calling someone racist against Italians for criticizing the Mafia.
I'm English and have lived in a Bulgarian village for 3 years now. The village is 50% gypsy. Our near neighbours are gypsy. I've done a lot to help them in the past but the daughter recently started seeing a gypsy boy from another village and he and they have since made our life hell. They now have parties every night outside our house on the street, keeping us awake at all hours, throwing rubbish on the street, threatening me when I ask them to turn off their music. I try not to judge different cultures or peoples and believe that everybody should have the right to do what they want to do .... so long as it doesn't have a negative effect on others ! But this, I believe typical gypsy family, have zero respect for others. It is a shame that hard working Bulgaians find it such a struggle to survive on their meagre incomes when others can get state handouts and never need to work. It would be easy for me to deal with the problem, many have offered their help, but the danger is retributions. All gypsy families are BIG. It's a dangerous game to cross one. Saying all that I have a couple of good gypsy friends. There's good and bad but in general they are certainly very different, in a negative way, from the average Bulgarian. I feel sorry that all Bulgarians are regularly tarnished with the same brush.
I remember watching a movie about gypsies, "Gadjo Dillo" where one gypsy gets into a bar fight and the entire local/white/slavic (not sure what's the setting) community herded into the gypsy settlement (there were some houses, gates, walls and fencing unlike the gettos in the documentary) and burnt the whole place down.
I was totally confused and thought it was some stupid movie plot but after reading this thread, I get it.
On September 28 2011 22:16 vasatko2 wrote: i would like to note this picture about Slovakian political party campaign advert
The advert says "Don't feed those who don't want to work"
Here you can see a proof that it's a problem all over the Europe
Yeah, I can see a proof that far right is just as disgusting in Czech Rpublic as it is with Switzerland or France. Well, for us, it's black people and Muslims who are lazy and want to steal your money.
Fun fact, our far-right was saying exactly the same about Polish people and eastern European Jews in the 20's 30's; when they were a minority of immigrant in France. The exact same crap: they don't want to integrate, they are dishonest, they are lazy, etc... Oh, well, I guess Polish people were fine after all. Now it's Arabs. Or Gypsies. I wonder if we will need concentration camps again to remember that this racist crap is maybe not a good idea.
On September 28 2011 21:12 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 28 2011 20:15 KwarK wrote:
On September 28 2011 20:10 Keldrath wrote: saying you dont like their culture and stuff is fine, but when you use blanket statements like all gypsies are bad is when you become a racist biggot.
No because it's not the race being hated on, it's a culture. Disliking a cultural trait that is shared by a racial group is not racism.
What a joke.
So if I say, for example, that I hate Britons, for whatever reason, say because they are liars and thieves and pedophiles, I can then pretend that I am not a racist because it's not genetic, it's their culture I dislike? Sounds less convincing nuh?
It's as dishonest as the people who say that Muslims are the root of all evil in Europe, that they are lazy, they want to invade us, and they are liars etc etc... and then say "Oh we are not racists, it's against Islam and Islamic culture, not against the race".
Hating a culture and its people is racism. Like it or not. If someone says that Jews are greedy and liars and that they want to dominate the world, but then say "oh, but it's about Jewish culture, not the race", he is just as antisemitic than someone who hate them on racist theoretical basis. Any kind of hatred towards human group for things they were born with is equally unacceptable, whether it's culture, religion, race, handicap or sex.
Now, I know Gypsy musicians who are among the best I have met in my life, play with an incredible virtuosity music from the culture so many people hate without having a clue about; and thinking about them while reading that thread makes me very very sad. It's because of people's attitude and hatred that Gypsies have no chance to integrate, to get a job or to live a honest life.
Some cultures are simply inferior. The difference between disliking something people do and disliking a race should be obvious to everyone though. In one you examine an action which is something which can be quantified, assessed and judged as positive or negative in a relatively objective way. Regarding the other there is no statistical evidence for there being any genetic cultural practices. Therefore if you subscribe to it you're an idiot.
For example. "female circumcision is disgusting, sexist, brutal and inhuman, the people who practice it, mainly indigenous African cultures, should be condemned". In contrast "blacks are inhuman and should be condemned".
Can you see the difference?
I have just as little patience for different ethnicities of traveller (they exist, it's not just the Romani). It's the culture that pisses me off, not the skin colour or anything like that. And not all cultures are equal.
Some cultures are inferior.
That's interesting. I wonder if Gypsies think your culture is superior or inferior. I guess Jewish culture was inferior sixty years ago, but now it's superior. Superior to Muslim culture, who was superior than European culture three hundred years ago.
Oh I get it. You culture is superior if you are the strongest, the wealthiest and the most dominant.
Seriously Kwark. You believe this crap? On what criteria do you define "objectively" a culture as being superior. I don't find us superior to anyone, to be honest.
Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
Cultural relativism is a bullshit excuse to avoid taking a hard stance on anything while acting morally superior for doing so. A culture isn't some magical thing ordained from above, it's just what people do. For example Britain has a binge drinking culture, it doesn't mean it's right, it doesn't mean we should define ourselves by it, it doesn't mean it's healthy, it means people in Britain like to get drunk. That's all it means. No more. Saying that because a lot of people like to do something it becomes above criticism is both absurd and logically self defeating (as if anything this topic proves Europe has a culture of intolerance which you should respect).
Yes, Muslims who think pornography is wrong are wrong. Studies have been done, pornography doesn't significantly change gender relations or public morals. That one's not even subjective, they're just not very smart with the whole facts thing. Moving onto something more subjective, female circumcision. Still wrong. It's barbaric, torturous, sexist and puts them at massive risk of death from infection. On the cons side we're looking at massive amounts of pain, the attempted destruction of the female libido, slavery of her body and often death. On the pro side we have "it's their culture". While I am admittedly an outsider here I think it's pretty fucking obvious which side to come down on. In the more extreme case the girl is completely stitched shut, with the exception of a tiny whole to urinate, and then cut open for marriage and child birth.
My culture is superior because we don't do this shit. My culture isn't perfect, no culture is, but to say there's no such thing as superior and inferior is burying your head in the sand. In the West we tend to suffer from post imperialist guilt and have this strange idea that because taking their resources and exploiting other peoples economically was wrong we shouldn't interfere. Well, in pre-colonial India there was a practice called Sati where a widowed woman would burn herself alive on her husband's pyre rather than be a burden to the family. I'm proud that 19th Century British imperialists had the confidence to point out how fucking retarded that was (along with many Indian reformers) and put a stop to it and I doubt you'd get many Indians today bitching about legislation against their culture.
On September 29 2011 02:26 tomatriedes wrote: Anyone who thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with these Gypsy clans and anyone who criticizes them is racist should watch the entirety of this video that was posted earlier:
Selling off 12 year old daughters for marriage, forcing children as young as 10 to beg and steal all day, keeping children locked up at night as slaves etc.
Seriously saying someone is racist for criticizing these things is as stupid as calling someone racist against Italians for criticizing the Mafia.
See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant.
On September 29 2011 02:26 tomatriedes wrote: Anyone who thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with these Gypsy clans and anyone who criticizes them is racist should watch the entirety of this video that was posted earlier:
Selling off 12 year old daughters for marriage, forcing children as young as 10 to beg and steal all day, keeping children locked up at night as slaves etc.
Seriously saying someone is racist for criticizing these things is as stupid as calling someone racist against Italians for criticizing the Mafia.
See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant.
Because apparently stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things are integrated into their culture. At the end of the video even a gypsy mafia boss agrees that this cannot continue any longer. He says the gypsy children should go to school and study, not roam the streets trying to rob people.
Stealing, begging and being involved in the mafia isn't part of the Italian culture, just like it isn't part of the African American culture. Evidently it is part of the gypsy culture and therefore the gypsy culture is bad. The Roma people are not inherently bad, no race is. Their culture is bad. Discriminating against Roma is racism, discriminating against gypsies is not (if gypsy = culture and Roma = ethnicity).
I am confident that there are great parts to gypsy culture, but some things are rotten about it and should be taken care of. Just because they have good traits doesn't mean nothing bad should be said about the culture.
On September 29 2011 02:26 tomatriedes wrote: Anyone who thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with these Gypsy clans and anyone who criticizes them is racist should watch the entirety of this video that was posted earlier:
Selling off 12 year old daughters for marriage, forcing children as young as 10 to beg and steal all day, keeping children locked up at night as slaves etc.
Seriously saying someone is racist for criticizing these things is as stupid as calling someone racist against Italians for criticizing the Mafia.
See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant.
See, you SHOULD condemn cultures. Why shouldnt you? You should not condemn race, and nobody is doing that anyways. Nobody is saying that because just because you're a gypsy then you must be a criminal, we're talking about the culture.
To use Kwarks example it's like saying "brits like to drink". We're not saying all brits like to drink, but a lot do. There is nothing wrong with saying that. Saying that gypsies are a problem in many European countries is not racist either.
Or do you just want to ignore the obvious correlation between gypsies and the things they do? It's obvious that it's in their culture (hint: nobody is talking about genes here). Because it is quite obvious, and it is a problem. What else do you want to call this group of people?
Used to have several gypsy colleagues in my football team when I was a teenager. They were all cool guys, we got along perfectly during practice. As soon as they got home to their "ghetto" area they started stealing and doing all sorts of bull. Guess you can integrate them in a normal society, as long as their dysfunctional society disappears.
Near my hometown of Cluj there was an entire village of them who did not have, nor want to have IDs. I agree everyone should have equal rights, but I'd also like everyone to have the same obligations towards society.
All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant.
I see complete blindless here... None of regular Bulgarians act like romas.
All romas don't do that but majority does. So instead od saying "romas except the good ones" we just say "romas". We mean only those ones who act like this. And they won't be punished because goverment is on the side of romas. got it? read some responces pls and then post something
On September 29 2011 02:26 tomatriedes wrote: Anyone who thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with these Gypsy clans and anyone who criticizes them is racist should watch the entirety of this video that was posted earlier:
Selling off 12 year old daughters for marriage, forcing children as young as 10 to beg and steal all day, keeping children locked up at night as slaves etc.
Seriously saying someone is racist for criticizing these things is as stupid as calling someone racist against Italians for criticizing the Mafia.
See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant.
Did you actually watch the video? Of course not every single person does it but he sending of young children to beg and steal does actually seem a part of their culture. And the selling of underage girls as brides is certainly a cultural practice. Even the PC Italian people who were trying to help them by giving them free houses said there are some parts of their culture that they will have to renounce if they want to fit into society. That's not racism, that's reality. Nobody is saying that every single Roma person is bad, the argument is that there is a cultural norm in their society that it is OK to exploit children and not contribute to society and this is a problem that needs to be addressed if they want to integrate.
Burying your head in the sand and pretending there is no problem here in the name of political correctness doesn't actually help anyone. Of course, it's not good to have any prejudice or hate for any particular people but ignoring what is going on is just as bad and will do nothing to break the cycle of exploitation.
On September 29 2011 02:26 tomatriedes wrote: Anyone who thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with these Gypsy clans and anyone who criticizes them is racist should watch the entirety of this video that was posted earlier:
Selling off 12 year old daughters for marriage, forcing children as young as 10 to beg and steal all day, keeping children locked up at night as slaves etc.
Seriously saying someone is racist for criticizing these things is as stupid as calling someone racist against Italians for criticizing the Mafia.
See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant.
Because apparently stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things are integrated into their culture. At the end of the video even a gypsy mafia boss agrees that this cannot continue any longer. He says the gypsy children should go to school and study, not roam the streets trying to rob people.
Stealing, begging and being involved in the mafia isn't part of the Italian culture, just like it isn't part of the African American culture. Evidently it is part of the gypsy culture and therefore the gypsy culture is bad. The Roma people are not inherently bad, no race is. Their culture is bad. Discriminating against Roma is racism, discriminating against gypsies is not (if gypsy = culture and Roma = ethnicity).
I am confident that there are great parts to gypsy culture, but some things are rotten about it and should be taken care of. Just because they have good traits doesn't mean nothing bad should be said about the culture.
That video is really amazing by the way.
Well FYI Roma and Gypsy is the same thing. Gypsy would be the equivilant of calling someone a nigger.
I just get goose bumps when someone says overarching things about huge amount of people, as if they had a clue. Also most pro racism people in this thread seem to bring up single events as proof that all Romas are thieves, rapists, murderers and evil in general.
If "stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things" are indeed integrated into their culture, then ask yourself why?. Maybe because they've been hunted down, force sterelized no longer than 30 years ago, had their ears cut off, been enslaved etc etc. This has systematically been going on in Europe for the past 700+ years.
There are famous musicians, smiths and artist among the Roma people.
These "cultural differences" are exactly what was the standpoint behind the genocides during ww2. How can generalizing culture groups possible be defendable?
Please answere my question as well. If you don't like thieves and murderers, why do you have to bring in an entire group of people as responsible for these actions? (I highly doubt all murderers and thieves in any country are Romas, even though that's appearantly what you want me to believe). Why isn't it enough to say that murder and theft is bad and we have to do something about problems with increased criminality?
On September 29 2011 02:26 tomatriedes wrote: Anyone who thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with these Gypsy clans and anyone who criticizes them is racist should watch the entirety of this video that was posted earlier:
Selling off 12 year old daughters for marriage, forcing children as young as 10 to beg and steal all day, keeping children locked up at night as slaves etc.
Seriously saying someone is racist for criticizing these things is as stupid as calling someone racist against Italians for criticizing the Mafia.
See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant.
Because apparently stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things are integrated into their culture. At the end of the video even a gypsy mafia boss agrees that this cannot continue any longer. He says the gypsy children should go to school and study, not roam the streets trying to rob people.
Stealing, begging and being involved in the mafia isn't part of the Italian culture, just like it isn't part of the African American culture. Evidently it is part of the gypsy culture and therefore the gypsy culture is bad. The Roma people are not inherently bad, no race is. Their culture is bad. Discriminating against Roma is racism, discriminating against gypsies is not (if gypsy = culture and Roma = ethnicity).
I am confident that there are great parts to gypsy culture, but some things are rotten about it and should be taken care of. Just because they have good traits doesn't mean nothing bad should be said about the culture.
That video is really amazing by the way.
If you don't like thieves and murderers, why do you have to bring in an entire group of people as responsible for these actions? (I highly doubt all murderers and thieves in any country are Romas, even though that's appearantly what you want me to believe). Why isn't it enough to say that murder and theft is bad and we have to do something about problems with increased criminality?
Just because some A are also Bs does not mean all Bs are As. Nobody is suggesting that and yet what you've done is set that up as an argument that someone else has made and then defended yourself against it. Nobody here is arguing that all murderers are gypsies. That wouldn't make any sense.
On September 28 2011 22:20 Biff The Understudy wrote: Female circumcision is disgusting. For you. In your cultural surrounding. With your European ideas. For some Muslim, your culture is disgusting because it's vicious and depraved because women dress like whores and people watch pornography. Are they wrong? Are you right? Where the hell do you want to find "objectivity" in such mess? Human rights? Liberal freedom? Do you realize both are Occidental concepts and ideas?
Doesn't make any sense.
You're arguing that no culture can be condemned morally by any other.
That is not good logic.
On the opposite, it's very logical.
Judging a culture with the intellectual tools of another culture will lead you to say that what is similar to your culture is good and what is different is bad.
When I hear fundamentalist Islamist say that our culture is depraved and perverted because women dress like whore or don't hide their hair, I find it utterly stupid. Just as stupid as people who say that a cultural practice like excision is evil and makes a whole culture "inferior".
As a political subject and a citizen, I don't want excision to happen in the country I live in, but this is politics. But I won't have this arrogant XIXth century attitude to say that Zulu culture is inferior to mine. Because that doesn't make sense and that I am smart enough to understand cultural relativism.
If you truly buy into that, than you simply can't objectively condemn any labeling of any culture as inferior.
After all, said labeling is part of my culture, no?
You're essentially arguing "all cultures are equal and can't judge each other, and I can make that judgement because I *somehow* have some objective understanding of all cultures". In order to make the first part of the argument, the second necessarily has to follow.
I think the main point is that you should target the criminals and not necessarily the whole people. The fact that the crimes are so heavily focused in a specific group of people makes the problem complicated.
It's actually an interesting point someone brought up about the italian mafia. One could argue they had a "criminal culture" like the Roma, but we didn't treat it as a racial thing. We treated it as a criminal thing, and breaking it down from the criminal perspective.
Well FYI Roma and Gypsy is the same thing. Gypsy would be the equivilant of calling someone a nigger.
That is just semantics. I don't know any other word for their culture than 'gypsy culture'.
I just get goose bumps when someone says overarching things about huge amount of people, as if they had a clue. Also most pro racism people in this thread seem to bring up single events as proof that all Romas are thieves, rapists, murderers and evil in general.
There are no pro racism people in this thread. And how are people bringing up single events as proof? There have been multiple documentaries posted, tens of people from Eastern Europe saying it is a problem... what more proof do you want?
If "stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things" are indeed integrated into their culture, then ask yourself why?. Maybe because they've been hunted down, force sterelized no longer than 30 years ago, had their ears cut off, been enslaved etc etc. This has systematically been going on in Europe for the past 700+ years.
Apparently (as said by several Eastern Europeans and as seen in the 60 min documentary) Gypsies are offered help. They refuse it.
There are famous musicians, smiths and artist among the Roma people.
Your point being...?
These "cultural differences" are exactly what was the standpoint behind the genocides during ww2. How can generalizing culture groups possible be defendable?
Oh dear, let's play the Nazi card again. How about it is defendable when a culture actually is bad?
Please answere my question as well. If you don't like thieves and murderers, why do you have to bring in an entire group of people as responsible for these actions? (I highly doubt all murderers and thieves in any country are Romas, even though that's appearantly what you want me to believe). Why isn't it enough to say that murder and theft is bad and we have to do something about problems with increased criminality?
Because you are dancing around the problem which is gypsy culture encouraging theft and other shady acts. Also, stop using strawmans, NO ONE in this thread is postulating that ALL murderers and thiefs are gypsies.
Again, the CULTURE is the problem not the ethnicity. I couldn't care less what color you are, what your tongue is or what country your parents originated from. Cultures have good traits and bad ones, cultures that have very bad traits should be dealt with. NOT with extermination of course but in peacuful ways, as that it what civiziled humans do.
We're the most successful socialistic, among the wealthiest, nation on earth, with the most welfare, the most consumer rights, the most rights including free health care, the least economical difference between classes, and in general, the philosophy is that everyone have a right to a good life, and everyone contributes a lot (very high taxes, in addition to oil based income, means the state is very large, and provide social services for pretty much everyone of quite good quality).
In addition, we have very little corruption. Possibly the best, or among the best 5, nations on earth to live. One of two or three democratic countries on earth that does not have financial problems or high unemployment at the moment.
Gypsies aren't a big problem here. We don't have many.
However...
A significant minority of those here ... 1) Use fraud (including fake children, or borrowing children) to get welfare checks. 2) Fake personality disorders or other disabilities to get welfare money. 3) Pull their children out of school at a very early age, before they gain marketable skills enough to finish an education if they would chose to do so for themselves once they get older.
A majority of the adults are functionally illiterate, beggars, smugglers, don't own property or take part in the white economy, and cheat the system as best they can. It's seen as an acceptable way of life. Now, we can afford to, and is by law required to, and do provide, free housing to those without income. And money. So it's not like they aren't given a place to live or money so they can function as part of society. They just take that - and then instead of trying to get a normal job, the majority tries to figure out additional ways to get money from the system.
Children are married at an age where it's illegal, but it's not punished (and we punish Iraqi, Irani, Pakistani, Somali parents that do the same - they go to jail).
In general, beggars in Norway comes in two types: alcoholics and drug abusers, and gypsies. It's about the same amount of each. Which is really weird, considering we have very very few gypsies that live in Norway permanently. They just travel here to beg, and it's seen as a viable way to make an additional income to welfare checks for those that live here.
Also, the drunks and drug abusers are mainly of the type that politely asks if you could help them with some change, the gypsies can be damn annoying, pay annoyingly loud music (in public transportation, so you can't get away), or combine it with stealing.
The child welfare system here turns a semi blind eye to gypsy families, considering it's a native European 'culture' - but in reality, native Norwegians would NOT be allowed to let their children live in the same way as gypsy children are or raise them that way.You would have the state take over responsibility.
The fact that they do not turn a completely blind eye to it though, and actually have taken children away from gypsies, is a large reason for why gypsies aren't here in great numbers.
But it's also a fact that when you judge someone because of their culture or ethnicity, it is racism. And to some degree, that is done.
It's just that people outside Europe doesn't understand that the racism that exists against gypsies - and it does exist - is actually pretty much based on the fact that those that chose NOT to integrate, and embrace the gypsy culture, are in effect a drain on society.
For numbers, you can look at Romania ... where 14% of gypsies in rural areas work, and 49% in the big cities (compared to roughly a bit over 60% of everyone). Why? Because those that are in big cities, more often are those that try to integrate ...
It's like ... no one would even know you are 'a gypsy' here in Norway, if you didn't act and dress like one. We got large Indian, Pakistani, Afghani, and other minority groups. People aren't going 'oh we don't mind Indians, it's gypsies we hate'.
People go 'oh it's fucking annoying with those damn stealing beggars that have to be pushed away to get them to stop, and you later realize they stole your phone'.
Which dominantly are gypsies.
Begging is actually legal in Norway, because it wasn't seen as a problem, and it has been some - but not much - debate about making it illegal only to have a legal way to deal with gypsies ...
So yeah, I do feel for those nations that have to deal with tens of thousands.
Not the ethnic group. Couldn't care less.
Those that share that specific culture that is being a problem.
Because they are overall predominantly leeching resources from society without contributing, and welfare societies are based on the idea that people trust the system isn't widely abused, because it requires popular support, otherwise it will fail.
On September 27 2011 21:23 craz3d wrote: Yes, the western European powers are hypocritical, but then again no country wants scum like these.
How is this post not racist?
On the subject, I believe after having studied the subject in relation to my own country (Denmark) That Roma's as a minority is hugely discriminated in every way. It is as if people have inherited the belief that most "gypsies" / roma people choose to live the way they do, because it is part of their culture, and with the belief of a choice comes the idea that we can discriminate them with no repercussions at all. We view them as though they are all alike and act similarly, which is, very untrue and very judgmental.
However they don't have a choice and in most countries are treated as lesser people in all ways, which is wrong and illegal. It is really disturbing to me that a person will rage if they hear about blacks /jews / arabs being discriminated, only to go on and call "gypsies" scum, now THAT is hypocritical.
talk about the roma / gypsie issue? Well we are the issue, in not providing these people with the basic rights they deserve as humans, and for judging them based on prejudices and general cultural ideas.
Personally i think the descision to compensate in this situation is not only "right" it is the only thing to do. We can not allow for people to start to think that some people somehow deserve to be treated different because of their race or ethnicity.
Also most pro racism people in this thread seem to bring up single events as proof that all Romas are thieves, rapists, murderers and evil in general.
Seems like you are a real humanist. It is not a single event. This event only started something that was escalating for years. And again nobody is generalizating all gypsies.
If "stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things" are indeed integrated into their culture, then ask yourself why?.
Answer: Because it's far easy for them and they get more money from that (and because they are lazy is fuck) You didn't watch that video don't you?Because those gypsies were saying this there.
On September 27 2011 21:23 craz3d wrote: Yes, the western European powers are hypocritical, but then again no country wants scum like these.
How is this post not racist?
On the subject, I believe after having studied the subject in relation to my own country (Denmark) That Roma's as a minority is hugely discriminated in every way. It is as if people have inherited the belief that most "gypsies" / roma people choose to live the way they do, because it is part of their culture, and with the belief of a choice comes the idea that we can discriminate them with no repercussions at all. We view them as though they are all alike and act similarly, which is, very untrue and very judgmental.
However they don't have a choice and in most countries are treated as lesser people in all ways, which is wrong and illegal. It is really disturbing to me that a person will rage if they hear about blacks /jews / arabs being discriminated, only to go on and call "gypsies" scum, now THAT is hypocritical.
talk about the roma / gypsie issue? Well we are the issue, in not providing these people with the basic rights they deserve as humans, and for judging them based on prejudices and general cultural ideas.
Personally i think the descision to compensate in this situation is not only "right" it is the only thing to do. We can not allow for people to start to think that some people somehow deserve to be treated different because of their race or ethnicity.
think people.... THINK! *sigh*
All is nice and dandy but you must look at all sides of the issue here. These people are illiterate, non-working, non-tax-paying. Don't know about other countries but here in Poland their usual income sources include: begging (they've even got entire organized beggar networks), pickpocketing, fortune telling and the like. I have absolutely nothing against immigrants, as long as they bring something positive to the society (even if it's just simple workforce). Romas don't. Add to that their reputation (most of which is true) and you've got a pretty good target for public hate.
On September 27 2011 21:23 craz3d wrote: Yes, the western European powers are hypocritical, but then again no country wants scum like these.
How is this post not racist?
On the subject, I believe after having studied the subject in relation to my own country (Denmark) That Roma's as a minority is hugely discriminated in every way. It is as if people have inherited the belief that most "gypsies" / roma people choose to live the way they do, because it is part of their culture, and with the belief of a choice comes the idea that we can discriminate them with no repercussions at all. We view them as though they are all alike and act similarly, which is, very untrue and very judgmental.
However they don't have a choice and in most countries are treated as lesser people in all ways, which is wrong and illegal. It is really disturbing to me that a person will rage if they hear about blacks /jews / arabs being discriminated, only to go on and call "gypsies" scum, now THAT is hypocritical.
talk about the roma / gypsie issue? Well we are the issue, in not providing these people with the basic rights they deserve as humans, and for judging them based on prejudices and general cultural ideas.
Personally i think the descision to compensate in this situation is not only "right" it is the only thing to do. We can not allow for people to start to think that some people somehow deserve to be treated different because of their race or ethnicity.
think people.... THINK! *sigh*
How do you know if a person is a Roma? Can you tell me?
Not providing them with the basic rights? You have got to be kidding me, i'll consider this a joke. (hint : they have the same rights as everyone else)
People in this thread still think that race even matters here, jesus christ. It's been explained too many times already, dont wanna do it again, look at the last 20 pages or so.
Also most pro racism people in this thread seem to bring up single events as proof that all Romas are thieves, rapists, murderers and evil in general.
Seems like you are a real humanist. It is not a single event. This event only started something that was escalating for years. And again nobody is generalizating all gypsies.
If "stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things" are indeed integrated into their culture, then ask yourself why?.
Answer: Because it's far easy for them and they get more money from that (and because they are lazy is fuck) You didn't watch that video don't you?Because those gypsies were saying this there.
Also because they are run like a criminal international enterprise, where constant small crime by children are used to generate profit for the leaders, and everyone at the lowest level make some money, but don't keep much if anything of it.
On September 29 2011 02:26 tomatriedes wrote: Anyone who thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with these Gypsy clans and anyone who criticizes them is racist should watch the entirety of this video that was posted earlier:
Selling off 12 year old daughters for marriage, forcing children as young as 10 to beg and steal all day, keeping children locked up at night as slaves etc.
Seriously saying someone is racist for criticizing these things is as stupid as calling someone racist against Italians for criticizing the Mafia.
See that's the thing though. You can't critizise all Italians for the mafia, which is what you're trying to do. All Romas don't do that stuff. Condemn criminals, not cultures or races. If you do something illegal you should be punished, regardless of your background. Why do you even have to bring in the fact that they happen to be Romas? It's irrelevant.
Because apparently stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things are integrated into their culture. At the end of the video even a gypsy mafia boss agrees that this cannot continue any longer. He says the gypsy children should go to school and study, not roam the streets trying to rob people.
Stealing, begging and being involved in the mafia isn't part of the Italian culture, just like it isn't part of the African American culture. Evidently it is part of the gypsy culture and therefore the gypsy culture is bad. The Roma people are not inherently bad, no race is. Their culture is bad. Discriminating against Roma is racism, discriminating against gypsies is not (if gypsy = culture and Roma = ethnicity).
I am confident that there are great parts to gypsy culture, but some things are rotten about it and should be taken care of. Just because they have good traits doesn't mean nothing bad should be said about the culture.
That video is really amazing by the way.
Well FYI Roma and Gypsy is the same thing. Gypsy would be the equivilant of calling someone a nigger.
I just get goose bumps when someone says overarching things about huge amount of people, as if they had a clue. Also most pro racism people in this thread seem to bring up single events as proof that all Romas are thieves, rapists, murderers and evil in general.
If "stealing, pickpocketing and other shady things" are indeed integrated into their culture, then ask yourself why?. Maybe because they've been hunted down, force sterelized no longer than 30 years ago, had their ears cut off, been enslaved etc etc. This has systematically been going on in Europe for the past 700+ years.
There are famous musicians, smiths and artist among the Roma people.
These "cultural differences" are exactly what was the standpoint behind the genocides during ww2. How can generalizing culture groups possible be defendable?
Please answere my question as well. If you don't like thieves and murderers, why do you have to bring in an entire group of people as responsible for these actions? (I highly doubt all murderers and thieves in any country are Romas, even though that's appearantly what you want me to believe). Why isn't it enough to say that murder and theft is bad and we have to do something about problems with increased criminality?
id say considering your PMs and posts you have very little understanding about the specific gypsy issue youre just opposing against racism in general, which is a good thing, i opposing myself aswell. nothing hurts more the progress of the solution than right wingers. for example in hungary there is a term gypsy-crime which is popularized by right wingers. most people denied the fact its exist because the term itself racist and segregating. the thing is there is special cases of crimes where the offenders 99% are gypsy. for example committing (armed) robbery or and assault for very little value, like a 50-100$ cellphone and some cash. or loaning out money with stellar (100-200%) interest rate. [most gypsys obv. dont get along from welfare because they already owe these people and their money being taken by the collectors in front of the post office where they receive it]... now as talking about the case being constantly ignored people starting to get fed up, and some radicalists already took action. a group of man started random killings in the side of gypsy villages. they got caught, but murdered several gypsys, based on pure chace. who happened to live there. this is obviously as horrible as it could get. you have to accept if a lot of people have problem with them, because labeling them as racist and not listening their reasons / accepting their points is only hurting the progress of the solution and indeed already leaded to terrible things.
Ok, i have to post some sort response, some sort of reply to all this shit. I cant think of any good ways to describe the ignorance and racism going on in this thread, and i posted my first reply without having read through the entire thing..... but i will try nevertheless to be somewhat collected and composed when replying now here again.......
First of all, is it ok on TeamLiquid to call a group of people (minority/race/religion) scum? Or is that only if talking about the generally accepted minorities that through history have proved they deserve our guilt and pitty? If not i suggest the ban hammer rolls, because the general oppinion of a lot of people (sadly too many) in this thread seems to belief that "gypsies" are scum... sigh.
Second, What the fuck is up with the prejudice regarding this issue, and the apparent accept of this? "They choose this way" "It is a part of their way of life" "They steal, kill and live of welfare" ect ect ect....... what the hell people? are YOU a "gypsy"? how the fuck do you know, and what the hell gives you the right to speak on their behalf!
Numerous studies (especially in europe) show that the treatment they get by being in contact with officials gives a pretty good idea of why they do not want to be a part of it (forced abortion, forced sterilization - yes this still happens, no rights, harassment and several other issues).
Thirdly the whole "you cant compare this to the Nazi exterminations of Jews, the Jews didn't do anything to deserve it, the gypsies do" - well what the fuck. Do you think Hitler just said, well i do not like Jews, therefore we must eradicate them? Of course fucking not, they too where considered a plague, they "took the hard-working Germans jobs, they stole, they cheated, they were a lower race, they ate their children and feasted on poor Germans!" These were what Germans at the time thought ( or at least the Nazis did - not every German was Nazi, but you knew that right???? RIGHT????) And so they justified their hatred and channelled their wrong opinion of human life, which led to the death of millions and the suffering of even more.
What exactly is different in the various statements in this thread? That is right there are none! You should be ashamed of yourselves to even try and justify these "facts"!
Finally, their is a problem yes, but this is not cultural, it is not a choice and most true of all, it is not up to "them" to fix it. Now, you might say, It is cultural, choice and "their" fault, but that is just generalizing, like I did, only I did it in a positive way!
TLDR : I am truly sad and truly disgusted.... And a little astonished at the moderation of this thread, as if "some racism is ok, just keep it low-key" wtf....
"What the fuck is up with the prejudice regarding"... nazis? Why are you hating on nazism? That's racist!
There were nazi musicians, smiths and artists, so nazism is perfectly fine and people that complain about nazism are racists.
Replace nazi and nazism with gypsy and gypsy culture.
Suddenly, the "arguments" magically become valid!
Damn racist bigots hating on nazis!
In before "they haven't killed enough people to be compared to the nazis, even though I just compared gypsies being given free apartments and education to genocide".
it's quite funny to read all of these posts and the opinions from my westren friends in Canada and the US. I was born and raised in Canada and have visted Eastren Europe often to see family (actually I am in EU right now) and I honestly don't think people from the US and Canada understand who and what gypsies are and do. They are not anything like the Native Canadians or Americans.. not one bit. I am happy I live around what we call 'poverty' and 'crime' in Canada in regards to the Native people because it sure as hell is 50x better in Canada then the Roma here in East EU. For god sakes I seen a mother breast feeding.... a THREE YEAR OLD.... topless?!? Not to mention the kid had no pants on.... in the middle of a busy street? While her other kids begged for money and stole food from food stands.. I also seen a child around 6 or 7 years old smoking with his older brother... just blows my mind cause you dont see that here in the US or Canada. Its all quite sad sad sad...
On September 27 2011 21:23 craz3d wrote: Yes, the western European powers are hypocritical, but then again no country wants scum like these.
How is this post not racist?
On the subject, I believe after having studied the subject in relation to my own country (Denmark) That Roma's as a minority is hugely discriminated in every way. It is as if people have inherited the belief that most "gypsies" / roma people choose to live the way they do, because it is part of their culture, and with the belief of a choice comes the idea that we can discriminate them with no repercussions at all. We view them as though they are all alike and act similarly, which is, very untrue and very judgmental.
However they don't have a choice and in most countries are treated as lesser people in all ways, which is wrong and illegal. It is really disturbing to me that a person will rage if they hear about blacks /jews / arabs being discriminated, only to go on and call "gypsies" scum, now THAT is hypocritical.
talk about the roma / gypsie issue? Well we are the issue, in not providing these people with the basic rights they deserve as humans, and for judging them based on prejudices and general cultural ideas.
Personally i think the descision to compensate in this situation is not only "right" it is the only thing to do. We can not allow for people to start to think that some people somehow deserve to be treated different because of their race or ethnicity.
think people.... THINK! *sigh*
How do you know if a person is a Roma? Can you tell me?
Not providing them with the basic rights? You have got to be kidding me, i'll consider this a joke. (hint : they have the same rights as everyone else)
People in this thread still think that race even matters here, jesus christ. It's been explained too many times already, dont wanna do it again, look at the last 20 pages or so.
First of all, yes Romas are identifiable, they share (those who are culturally and racially bound) a language which most research shows that it probably stems from indo european cultures. That they racially have an origin also has many supporting theories (read up on The Osman Empire and general history of indian/turkish influence on culture and language in the eastern europe around 1000-1300). Anyway, discussing whether or not "Roma's" are an actual minority or just a myth is quite unfathomable.
Second of all, no rights. Since their are many examples of Roma's Being treated as if their don't have any rights i will take an example which you might remember since you too seem to be from Denmark. Last year the Danish foreign administration decided to deport 23 Roma's without them having actually done anything. Now there was a lot of speculation on what they might have done and what they might could have done, but they were never put on trial or judged. Instead they were considered a threat to society and could therefore be deported without reason and could do so without ever getting to court. They later sued the Danish government and won. There are many more examples of these kinds of things happening (especially in France and Italy) So with that statement I will consider you attempt to disregard a valid point an utter joke as well.*
Thirdly i think this is a great example of the amount of ignorance in the world regarding "gypsies" and it just goes to show that people haven't got a clue.
Ok, i have to post some sort response, some sort of reply to all this shit. I cant think of any good ways to describe the ignorance and racism going on in this thread, and i posted my first reply without having read through the entire thing.....
PLEASE read the whole thread, then you will realise that the only one who is ignorant is you at this moment.
First of all, is it ok on TeamLiquid to call a group of people (minority/race/religion) scum?
It is OK to call people who destroy principles of socialization a scum or parasites or whatever you want.
Second, What the fuck is up with the prejudice regarding this issue, and the apparent accept of this? "They choose this way" "It is a part of their way of life" "They steal, kill and live of welfare" ect ect ect....... what the hell people? are YOU a "gypsy"? how the fuck do you know, and what the hell gives you the right to speak on their behalf!
The right gives us democracy and it seems like you never have never seen a problematic gypsy only that can justify your statement.
And i think ur rest of your post is full of emotions... that just blinds you view, get a soda to cool your head
I have a relative who works taking care of prisoners... They have a workshop creating random stuff from orders they get.
He can indeed confirm that, even in prison with nothing else to do, eastern Europeans refuse to work. They just sit around doing nothing and talking shit. The other criminals have better work morals.
So the evidence from this small empirical sample is... *Eastern European citizens *Likes to travel to foreign countries *Habit of committing crimes
I cannot say what ethnic group they descend from more specifically. But you can draw conclusions on your own.
On September 29 2011 06:25 TWIX_Heaven wrote: First of all, is it ok on TeamLiquid to call a group of people (minority/race/religion) scum?
Since when is it wrong to call thiefs scum?
On September 29 2011 06:25 TWIX_Heaven wrote: Second, What the fuck is up with the prejudice regarding this issue, and the apparent accept of this? "They choose this way" "It is a part of their way of life" "They steal, kill and live of welfare" ect ect ect....... what the hell people? are YOU a "gypsy"? how the fuck do you know, and what the hell gives you the right to speak on their behalf!
how do we know.... well shit maybe because they live in our countries and we meet them on daily basis? Its not like its a minority of them that fail to act like a normal person, its the extreme majority.
Hint: Czech republic recently got a deal with Canada for something like a "green card" - meaning both the countries could travel and stay there without any big paperwork. It had to be cancelled because gypsies started traveling to Canada and applying their lifestyle there. And thats just the tiny amount of gypsies that live in here and have enough money to fly there.
Also, please watch the documentary before you post any more comments.
Its easy for people who dont know them to flipout the racist card, comparing it to the situation blacks had in America. The difference is that when you say most black people are thiefs and dont want to work is stupid as it is not true. When you say most gypsies are thiefs and dont want to work you are stating the truth. We wish we could convert them to our society, but we have given them homes many times and encourage them to get jobs but they CHOOSE to live of the social support/thievery. Ofcourse, there are a few of them who want to work, and they do, but will probably face some prejudice because of the rest of their race. That is the real problem.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
User was temp banned for this post.
tbh the only way of dealing with the JEWS problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
You just sounded like that guy that wrote mein kampf... you really need some help.
On September 28 2011 18:54 hgt1002 wrote: discodancer, another all-knowing american. district full of gypsys? and only 3 of them in school? =))) a six grader cannot read (age of 12)? =))) illegal borders crossing in the european union? =))))
"Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think."
I'm not American. Do you even read?
I assumed France deported them for being there illegally, I didn't know what law specifically they breached. Deportation was a legal act, go back and read the quotes I provided.
Why are you questioning stupid shit like a 6 grader who cannot read? We had 9 graders who could barely read and they were local white majority, just trash kids in general. If you are not old enough to know how post-soviet school system worked you shouldn't really argue. No one ever got kicked out of school. There was no option like that, only on paper.
Once again, I moved to US 7 years ago. I have no idea if Bulgarians and Romanians are allowed to freely cross European borders, back in a day people would laugh at the idea of letting Eastern European nations in PERIOD.
Ok, i have to post some sort response, some sort of reply to all this shit. I cant think of any good ways to describe the ignorance and racism going on in this thread, and i posted my first reply without having read through the entire thing..... but i will try nevertheless to be somewhat collected and composed when replying now here again.......
First of all, is it ok on TeamLiquid to call a group of people (minority/race/religion) scum? Or is that only if talking about the generally accepted minorities that through history have proved they deserve our guilt and pitty? If not i suggest the ban hammer rolls, because the general oppinion of a lot of people (sadly too many) in this thread seems to belief that "gypsies" are scum... sigh.
Second, What the fuck is up with the prejudice regarding this issue, and the apparent accept of this? "They choose this way" "It is a part of their way of life" "They steal, kill and live of welfare" ect ect ect....... what the hell people? are YOU a "gypsy"? how the fuck do you know, and what the hell gives you the right to speak on their behalf!
Numerous studies (especially in europe) show that the treatment they get by being in contact with officials gives a pretty good idea of why they do not want to be a part of it (forced abortion, forced sterilization - yes this still happens, no rights, harassment and several other issues).
Thirdly the whole "you cant compare this to the Nazi exterminations of Jews, the Jews didn't do anything to deserve it, the gypsies do" - well what the fuck. Do you think Hitler just said, well i do not like Jews, therefore we must eradicate them? Of course fucking not, they too where considered a plague, they "took the hard-working Germans jobs, they stole, they cheated, they were a lower race, they ate their children and feasted on poor Germans!" These were what Germans at the time thought ( or at least the Nazis did - not every German was Nazi, but you knew that right???? RIGHT????) And so they justified their hatred and channelled their wrong opinion of human life, which led to the death of millions and the suffering of even more.
What exactly is different in the various statements in this thread? That is right there are none! You should be ashamed of yourselves to even try and justify these "facts"!
Finally, their is a problem yes, but this is not cultural, it is not a choice and most true of all, it is not up to "them" to fix it. Now, you might say, It is cultural, choice and "their" fault, but that is just generalizing, like I did, only I did it in a positive way!
TLDR : I am truly sad and truly disgusted.... And a little astonished at the moderation of this thread, as if "some racism is ok, just keep it low-key" wtf....
I have to say that you have probably never ever ran into an incident with the true roma "gipsy" in your whole life. Otherwise you couldn't say anything like this. It is not about the race, it is about the lifestyle. I know some roms that are socially accepted, have jobs and have 2-3 children in a family. They are fine and they make good living with nobody saying bad things about them. Then you have families with 10 kids, none of the go to school (i would like to remind you that it is their choice, not that they could not go to school). Usually it is because they have to take care of their younger siblings, because their parents are too busy drinking and beling lazy fucks. These people make kids as their jobs, the more kids they have - more money they get. Also they send kids to steal from people, because law can't do anything against little kid stealing. Anytime people do fight their crimes...they call Racism all around the world......and you are defedning these people here. I recommend visiting their neighborhood somewhere, they basically live in thrash and it is not because they are poor, it is because they are lazy to even clean around themselves....
On September 28 2011 11:22 decemberTV wrote: Again, someone who has no idea about the issue and thinks its the same thing as minorities in the US. You are so naive and i don't care if you say you come from eastern europe you still don't know what you're talking about. The issue is completely different as eastern european governments are NOT the same as in the US and they actually rarely resolve these problems. Which is why the bulgarians rioted in the first place and is why this thread is here.
And its not just the Bulgarian government; the french PRESIDENT SARKOZY DEPORTED GIPSIES FROM FRANCE BACK TO ROMANIA AND BULGARIA. Does anyone actually understand what this means ? Its not just the european governments that can't deal with the situation but also the western governments.
Yeah I have no idea about Eastern Europe even though I lived there for 19 years before moving to the US. Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think. I lived in a district full of gypsies and went to school with at least 3 of them. In 6th grade they couldn't read for shit but that's not the point, is it? I saw just as many local white majority kids selling stolen cellphones and getting shitfaced and hustling people for money. Don't exaggerate because someone like me will always call you out on your bullshit. End of story.
And yeah, Sarkozy deported gypsies back to where they came from because they crossed the border illegally and if it was an illegal Bulgarian he would have been deported exactly the same way. Not because he is Bulgarian.
There is no illegal border crossing anymore dude. France has no limitations on bulgarians/romanians going there for various purposes. Get a grip. They just got deported for being gypsies. At the current time there simply is no solution outside of forging each and every family to let their children get an education. And there just isn't enough police to force all of them.
Romania and Bulgaria are not members of the Schengen Agreement. Just sayin'
Well in a few months maybe in a year at max when the two countries become members of the agreement, what are the other countries gonna do when the gypsies finally have the legal rights to go wherever the fuck in Europe they want and start stealing/prostituting/drug-dealing/murdering/raping and all the other crimes they commit in our countries, what are the western governments gonna do then? You don't think that people won't start protests in your countries?
On September 28 2011 18:54 hgt1002 wrote: discodancer, another all-knowing american. district full of gypsys? and only 3 of them in school? =))) a six grader cannot read (age of 12)? =))) illegal borders crossing in the european union? =))))
"Stop with this garbage talk please, people are not as dumb as you think."
back in a day people would laugh at the idea of letting Eastern European nations in PERIOD.
Wish this was true still... I don't like the concept of mixing totally different cultures. What good can come from having two parallel societies in the same country? Countries should be for cultural unification. Will be easier to retain their own values and have them supported by the host country.
The anti-gypsy waves came later, with planted provocateurs in peaceful protests, and are just government trying to ride it into the coming elections. The elections are less than a month away.
The amount of anti-racist drivel that's being spewed unfoundedly is staggering, especially when my countrymen are painted more or less as massively racist, when they had a legitimate gripe with a single family is staggering.
On September 29 2011 07:22 Macpo wrote: This whole thread is racist... Please Teamliquid do something. Such garbage really doesn't help much TL's image.
Exactly, poor gypsies are rasistic towerds Bulgarians who work for them, feed them maybe Bulgarians could become regular slaves for them don't you think
Well, all I know about gypsies is that they dont really care what other people have to say. They will be professional beggers and low lives in spite of all efforts of the native people to incorporate them into normal society. They have learned one way of life, and no one is changing that now.
This thread has everything. -People with a legitimate concern. -Racist people. -Over political correct crowd which attributes ALL the blame for the situation on the non-roma.
This thread was huge eye-opener for me on how racist so many Europeans are. I'm not even gonna bother trying to argue, people are so consumed by their hate to put themselves in anybody else's shoes or consider any other points of view. No side is blameless, but the racism here is staggering. It shouldn't be allowed on this site-it definitely makes Teamliquid as a whole look bad. Sigh. Why does hate always have to be the strongest?
On September 29 2011 07:26 Nikon wrote: Let me reiterate just one last time.
These protest weren't anti-gypsy.
The anti-gypsy waves came later, with planted provocateurs in peaceful protests, and are just government trying to ride it into the coming elections. The elections are less than a month away.
The amount of anti-racist drivel that's being spewed unfoundedly is staggering, especially when my countrymen are painted more or less as massively racist, when they had a legitimate gripe with a single family is staggering.
Maybe the initial protests weren't racially motivated, but that's where it led.
"I disagree with you, therefore I'm going to call what you are saying stupid.". Yeah, people only suggested executing them through terrorist methods, mass deporting of them to God knows where, judging by the average poster on your side of the boat they'd prefer the middle of the ocean.
I watched that 50~ minute documentary about gangs earlier. If anything, that paired with the posts in this thread tell me that there is an extreme amount of racism directed towards roma, so much so that I very legitimately see why they don't want to integrate themselves into your school system and further your workplaces, they take the welfare they are given because to not do so would mean they would all have to steal and murder.
People also like to point out specific things like, "Oh, this one gypsy is selling their daughter!" Like that somehow all of a sudden makes all gypsies that way. I do enjoy the constant reiteration throughout this thread that 95%, 99%, 99.9% of them are evil, thieving, murderers though. It is racist, by the way, because gypsy is commonly used to refer to them as a whole, even the ones who aren't bad. This thread doesn't have a bunch of people going, "I don't like all the pick pockets here." or, "I don't like all the murderers here.", or "I don't like all the gangs here." They say someone higher up who isn't a gypsy is pulling the strings and quite frankly I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were entirely true.
The racism is strong in this thread and is even displayed by a mod, which is a little baffling.
Edit: If TL takes a stand so that racism is okay as long as it's backed up by factual studies (Which I still haven't actually seen one about gypsies, just videos which really proved nothing) then there should be an announcement. Because I could point to factual studies that would basically, "allow" for racism directed towards other races if this became the case.
It's not like there are a lot of options for what can be done either, they improve their efforts (in which case that also means you wait for them to do so, if that even happens), you improve your efforts (by fighting against, "racism"), or they are expelled/massacred.
On September 29 2011 07:26 Nikon wrote: Let me reiterate just one last time.
These protest weren't anti-gypsy.
The anti-gypsy waves came later, with planted provocateurs in peaceful protests, and are just government trying to ride it into the coming elections. The elections are less than a month away.
The amount of anti-racist drivel that's being spewed unfoundedly is staggering, especially when my countrymen are painted more or less as massively racist, when they had a legitimate gripe with a single family is staggering.
Maybe the initial protests weren't racially motivated, but that's where it led.
"I disagree with you, therefore I'm going to call what you are saying stupid.". Yeah, people only suggested executing them through terrorist methods, mass deporting of them to God knows where, judging by the average poster on your side of the boat they'd prefer the middle of the ocean.
I watched that 50~ minute documentary about gangs earlier. If anything, that paired with the posts in this thread tell me that there is an extreme amount of racism directed towards roma, so much so that I very legitimately see why they don't want to integrate themselves into your school system and further your workplaces, they take the welfare they are given because to not do so would mean they would all have to steal and murder.
People also like to point out specific things like, "Oh, this one gypsy is selling their daughter!" Like that somehow all of a sudden makes all gypsies that way. I do enjoy the constant reiteration throughout this thread that 95%, 99%, 99.9% of them are evil, thieving, murderers though. It is racist, by the way, because gypsy is commonly used to refer to them as a whole, even the ones who aren't bad. This thread doesn't have a bunch of people going, "I don't like all the pick pockets here." or, "I don't like all the murderers here.", or "I don't like all the gangs here." They say someone higher up who isn't a gypsy is pulling the strings and quite frankly I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were entirely true.
The racism is strong in this thread and is even displayed by a mod, which is a little baffling.
What could I possibly say to you? You're removed from the situation so far, that even when I type it out for you, you can not grasp it. And then you just called me a racist and everything and everything is ok.
The part that I struck out? It's not even fucking relevant - the gypsies are just benefiting from a broken government. Nothing more, nothing less.
Please just imagine how would things work if the word racism and it's meaning never existed. It woud be just a comon hate towards something (in this case group of people) that are commiting crime and stealing from other people directly and stealing from states by not paying taxes and just living on welfare. You offer them work and they don't accept cause they don't want to work. Why do all people have to work and pay taxes and they can only fuck, make kids and commit crime?? Everyone who says: "wtf i hate this bullshit" is concerned racist. I wish the word racism was never used connected to gypsies issue. If someone, who is the same race as you are, was stealing from you - you would also hate him. So why can't i hate those people without being called racist...
On September 29 2011 07:26 Nikon wrote: Let me reiterate just one last time.
These protest weren't anti-gypsy.
The anti-gypsy waves came later, with planted provocateurs in peaceful protests, and are just government trying to ride it into the coming elections. The elections are less than a month away.
The amount of anti-racist drivel that's being spewed unfoundedly is staggering, especially when my countrymen are painted more or less as massively racist, when they had a legitimate gripe with a single family is staggering.
Maybe the initial protests weren't racially motivated, but that's where it led.
"I disagree with you, therefore I'm going to call what you are saying stupid.". Yeah, people only suggested executing them through terrorist methods, mass deporting of them to God knows where, judging by the average poster on your side of the boat they'd prefer the middle of the ocean.
I watched that 50~ minute documentary about gangs earlier. If anything, that paired with the posts in this thread tell me that there is an extreme amount of racism directed towards roma, so much so that I very legitimately see why they don't want to integrate themselves into your school system and further your workplaces, they take the welfare they are given because to not do so would mean they would all have to steal and murder.
People also like to point out specific things like, "Oh, this one gypsy is selling their daughter!" Like that somehow all of a sudden makes all gypsies that way. I do enjoy the constant reiteration throughout this thread that 95%, 99%, 99.9% of them are evil, thieving, murderers though. It is racist, by the way, because gypsy is commonly used to refer to them as a whole, even the ones who aren't bad. This thread doesn't have a bunch of people going, "I don't like all the pick pockets here." or, "I don't like all the murderers here.", or "I don't like all the gangs here." They say someone higher up who isn't a gypsy is pulling the strings and quite frankly I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were entirely true.
The racism is strong in this thread and is even displayed by a mod, which is a little baffling.
What could I possibly say to you? You're removed from the situation so far, that even when I type it out for you, you can not grasp it. And then you just called me a racist and everything and everything is ok.
The part that I struck out? It's not even fucking relevant - the gypsies are just benefiting from a broken government. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's relevant because people posted about it in this thread and I am responding to them regarding it. It's relevant because people are saying they aren't being racist. But keep on thinking whatever the hell you want from your perch up there.
I don't think watching a 50 minute documentary (Plus some of the other videos posted here) as well as all the comments makes me an expert, but it does give me enough evidence to say that the gypsies are hardly given a fair shot from integrating into society without extreme prejudice directed towards them in the process, so much so that they decide against it.
On September 29 2011 06:39 lololol wrote: "What the fuck is up with the prejudice regarding"... nazis? Why are you hating on nazism? That's racist!
There were nazi musicians, smiths and artists, so nazism is perfectly fine and people that complain about nazism are racists.
Replace nazi and nazism with gypsy and gypsy culture.
Suddenly, the "arguments" magically become valid!
Damn racist bigots hating on nazis!
In before "they haven't killed enough people to be compared to the nazis, even though I just compared gypsies being given free apartments and education to genocide".
I love you.
Also - pepole who don't read the thread and just call everyone racist amaze me, every single time.
On September 29 2011 08:09 Ricjames wrote: Please just imagine how would things work if the word racism and it's meaning never existed. It woud be just a comon hate towards something (in this case group of people) that are commiting crime and stealing from other people directly and stealing from states by not paying taxes and just living on welfare. You offer them work and they don't accept cause they don't want to work. Why do all people have to work and pay taxes and they can only fuck, make kids and commit crime?? Everyone who says: "wtf i hate this bullshit" is concerned racist. I wish the word racism was never used connected to gypsies issue. If someone, who is the same race as you are, was stealing from you - you would also hate him. So why can't i hate those people without being called racist...
Indeed, i would say the political correctness enforced on people these days is just as bad as racism.
On September 29 2011 07:58 HereticSaint wrote: I watched that 50~ minute documentary about gangs earlier. If anything, that paired with the posts in this thread tell me that there is an extreme amount of racism directed towards roma, so much so that I very legitimately see why they don't want to integrate themselves into your school system and further your workplaces, they take the welfare they are given because to not do so would mean they would all have to steal and murder.
Again, there is racism in this thread. There are very inflated numbers being spewed around, like 95% unemployment which is not true.
However you seem to lump the people that have a legitimate concern about the problems that a part of the roma people cause. In the documentary you saw people being offered help. Only a small percentage took the help. Most people in this thread don't have a problem with the Roma that actually try to get out of their ghettos (for which they are ostracized by the Roma that live there). Some were offered free shelter and food with the sole obligation of sending their children to school and even then one family still couldn't refrain from sending their kids to steal instead of to school.
Yes, Racism is part of the problem. But to imply that there is no problem endemic to parts of the Roma culture is just as ignorant as wanting to burn all of them at the stake.
On September 29 2011 08:10 HereticSaint wrote: I don't think watching a 50 minute documentary (Plus some of the other videos posted here) as well as all the comments makes me an expert, but it does give me enough evidence to say that the gypsies are hardly given a fair shot from integrating into society without extreme prejudice directed towards them in the process, so much so that they decide against it.
It doesn't mean you are right though, certainly you are free to say it.
I mainly object to your 'so that they decide against it' because you don't know their thought process, and word extreme combined with prejudice - because while prejudice exist, I don't see it as extreme. As evidenced by the fact that a lot from that culture that chose to integrate, manage.
On September 29 2011 07:26 Nikon wrote: Let me reiterate just one last time.
These protest weren't anti-gypsy.
The anti-gypsy waves came later, with planted provocateurs in peaceful protests, and are just government trying to ride it into the coming elections. The elections are less than a month away.
The amount of anti-racist drivel that's being spewed unfoundedly is staggering, especially when my countrymen are painted more or less as massively racist, when they had a legitimate gripe with a single family is staggering.
Maybe the initial protests weren't racially motivated, but that's where it led.
"I disagree with you, therefore I'm going to call what you are saying stupid.". Yeah, people only suggested executing them through terrorist methods, mass deporting of them to God knows where, judging by the average poster on your side of the boat they'd prefer the middle of the ocean.
I watched that 50~ minute documentary about gangs earlier. If anything, that paired with the posts in this thread tell me that there is an extreme amount of racism directed towards roma, so much so that I very legitimately see why they don't want to integrate themselves into your school system and further your workplaces, they take the welfare they are given because to not do so would mean they would all have to steal and murder.
People also like to point out specific things like, "Oh, this one gypsy is selling their daughter!" Like that somehow all of a sudden makes all gypsies that way. I do enjoy the constant reiteration throughout this thread that 95%, 99%, 99.9% of them are evil, thieving, murderers though. It is racist, by the way, because gypsy is commonly used to refer to them as a whole, even the ones who aren't bad. This thread doesn't have a bunch of people going, "I don't like all the pick pockets here." or, "I don't like all the murderers here.", or "I don't like all the gangs here." They say someone higher up who isn't a gypsy is pulling the strings and quite frankly I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were entirely true.
The racism is strong in this thread and is even displayed by a mod, which is a little baffling.
What could I possibly say to you? You're removed from the situation so far, that even when I type it out for you, you can not grasp it. And then you just called me a racist and everything and everything is ok.
The part that I struck out? It's not even fucking relevant - the gypsies are just benefiting from a broken government. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's relevant because people posted about it in this thread and I am responding to them regarding it. It's relevant because people are saying they aren't being racist. But keep on thinking whatever the hell you want from your perch up there.
I don't think watching a 50 minute documentary (Plus some of the other videos posted here) as well as all the comments makes me an expert, but it does give me enough evidence to say that the gypsies are hardly given a fair shot from integrating into society without extreme prejudice directed towards them in the process, so much so that they decide against it.
ok a simple question Do you think that i am a rasist if i don't like people who steal and parasitate on me?
On September 29 2011 07:26 Nikon wrote: Let me reiterate just one last time.
These protest weren't anti-gypsy.
The anti-gypsy waves came later, with planted provocateurs in peaceful protests, and are just government trying to ride it into the coming elections. The elections are less than a month away.
The amount of anti-racist drivel that's being spewed unfoundedly is staggering, especially when my countrymen are painted more or less as massively racist, when they had a legitimate gripe with a single family is staggering.
Maybe the initial protests weren't racially motivated, but that's where it led.
"I disagree with you, therefore I'm going to call what you are saying stupid.". Yeah, people only suggested executing them through terrorist methods, mass deporting of them to God knows where, judging by the average poster on your side of the boat they'd prefer the middle of the ocean.
I watched that 50~ minute documentary about gangs earlier. If anything, that paired with the posts in this thread tell me that there is an extreme amount of racism directed towards roma, so much so that I very legitimately see why they don't want to integrate themselves into your school system and further your workplaces, they take the welfare they are given because to not do so would mean they would all have to steal and murder.
People also like to point out specific things like, "Oh, this one gypsy is selling their daughter!" Like that somehow all of a sudden makes all gypsies that way. I do enjoy the constant reiteration throughout this thread that 95%, 99%, 99.9% of them are evil, thieving, murderers though. It is racist, by the way, because gypsy is commonly used to refer to them as a whole, even the ones who aren't bad. This thread doesn't have a bunch of people going, "I don't like all the pick pockets here." or, "I don't like all the murderers here.", or "I don't like all the gangs here." They say someone higher up who isn't a gypsy is pulling the strings and quite frankly I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were entirely true.
The racism is strong in this thread and is even displayed by a mod, which is a little baffling.
What could I possibly say to you? You're removed from the situation so far, that even when I type it out for you, you can not grasp it. And then you just called me a racist and everything and everything is ok.
The part that I struck out? It's not even fucking relevant - the gypsies are just benefiting from a broken government. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's relevant because people posted about it in this thread and I am responding to them regarding it. It's relevant because people are saying they aren't being racist. But keep on thinking whatever the hell you want from your perch up there
Read the bolded sentence. You are the one who has no idea what we are talking about. Notice everyone here from the affected countries understands that and only the countries that have dont have the issue connect this to racism.
Everyone from the affected countries understands the hate isnt towards the race (though it will affect the "good gypsies"). We hate the thieves. We try to not hate the ones that act with respect towards our rules. The italian guy who said "kill them all" is a racist. We have people like that, they are a minority, just like actual racists you experience in the US against blacks/mexicans/whatever.
On September 29 2011 07:58 HereticSaint wrote: I watched that 50~ minute documentary about gangs earlier. If anything, that paired with the posts in this thread tell me that there is an extreme amount of racism directed towards roma, so much so that I very legitimately see why they don't want to integrate themselves into your school system and further your workplaces, they take the welfare they are given because to not do so would mean they would all have to steal and murder.
Again, there is racism in this thread. There are very inflated numbers being spewed around, like 95% unemployment which is not true.
However you seem to lump the people that have a legitimate concern about the problems that a part of the roma people cause. In the documentary you saw people being offered help. Only a small percentage took the help. Most people in this thread don't have a problem with the Roma that actually try to get out of their ghettos (for which they are ostracized by the Roma that live there). Some were offered free shelter and food with the sole obligation of sending their children to school and even then one family still couldn't refrain from sending their kids to steal instead of to school.
Yes, Racism is part of the problem. But to imply that there is no problem endemic to parts of the Roma culture is just as ignorant as wanting to burn all of them at the stake.
I'm not saying none of it is because of the Roma, to do so would be ignorant. However at the same time from a neutral view point taking the information given to me there are some incredible bigots in this thread, the kind that would be almost impossible to find but in the most backwater cities in America. My point being there's not going to be an influx of Roma posters coming to defend themselves, so trying to counteract the most extreme views so there can be a more reasonable approach about the discussion on how to fix the issue is I think the best position I can take.
Of course some people say there is no solution except the Roma trying harder and if that is true then we can only wait and there isn't much reason for discussion as it'll just lead to racism.
On September 29 2011 07:26 Nikon wrote: Let me reiterate just one last time.
These protest weren't anti-gypsy.
The anti-gypsy waves came later, with planted provocateurs in peaceful protests, and are just government trying to ride it into the coming elections. The elections are less than a month away.
The amount of anti-racist drivel that's being spewed unfoundedly is staggering, especially when my countrymen are painted more or less as massively racist, when they had a legitimate gripe with a single family is staggering.
Maybe the initial protests weren't racially motivated, but that's where it led.
"I disagree with you, therefore I'm going to call what you are saying stupid.". Yeah, people only suggested executing them through terrorist methods, mass deporting of them to God knows where, judging by the average poster on your side of the boat they'd prefer the middle of the ocean.
I watched that 50~ minute documentary about gangs earlier. If anything, that paired with the posts in this thread tell me that there is an extreme amount of racism directed towards roma, so much so that I very legitimately see why they don't want to integrate themselves into your school system and further your workplaces, they take the welfare they are given because to not do so would mean they would all have to steal and murder.
People also like to point out specific things like, "Oh, this one gypsy is selling their daughter!" Like that somehow all of a sudden makes all gypsies that way. I do enjoy the constant reiteration throughout this thread that 95%, 99%, 99.9% of them are evil, thieving, murderers though. It is racist, by the way, because gypsy is commonly used to refer to them as a whole, even the ones who aren't bad. This thread doesn't have a bunch of people going, "I don't like all the pick pockets here." or, "I don't like all the murderers here.", or "I don't like all the gangs here." They say someone higher up who isn't a gypsy is pulling the strings and quite frankly I wouldn't be at all surprised if that were entirely true.
The racism is strong in this thread and is even displayed by a mod, which is a little baffling.
What could I possibly say to you? You're removed from the situation so far, that even when I type it out for you, you can not grasp it. And then you just called me a racist and everything and everything is ok.
The part that I struck out? It's not even fucking relevant - the gypsies are just benefiting from a broken government. Nothing more, nothing less.
It's relevant because people posted about it in this thread and I am responding to them regarding it. It's relevant because people are saying they aren't being racist. But keep on thinking whatever the hell you want from your perch up there.
I don't think watching a 50 minute documentary (Plus some of the other videos posted here) as well as all the comments makes me an expert, but it does give me enough evidence to say that the gypsies are hardly given a fair shot from integrating into society without extreme prejudice directed towards them in the process, so much so that they decide against it.
ok a simple question Do you think that i am a rasist if i don't like people who steal and parasitate on me?
It depends on the context. If you truly hate someone who steals from you to feed their family as they may have no other way then I have issue with you. I understand you earned or were given what you have and it's yours, but people need to realize there are people on the other end as well. Sure, some of the time these are terrible people who deserve to be imprisoned or worse but acting as if they all should be is wrong.
I don't go on a rant about how everyone on welfare in the US should be ostracized and if I were to have something stolen from me by a minority trying to feed their family, yes I would be pissed off that I had something stolen from me, but at the same time I wouldn't want them to die and I wouldn't start condemning all people from that minorities group.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
The only way of dealing with narrow minded rasists who plauge our society with their ignorance and non exisiting sympathy is to grab a gun and KILL THEM ALL!!
See how your statement is provoking and not so thought out? I can recognize that you have a problem with gypsies in your country but how can you not see the relation between your hatred for a specific group of people with previously done human cleansing etc.
You think that gypsies are murderers and thieves, I think that most other races have that too, but that doesn't mean we should murder them.
Because of mentality like yours the swedish police is at war with criminal immigrants
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
The only way of dealing with narrow minded rasists who plauge our society with their ignorance and non exisiting sympathy is to grab a gun and KILL THEM ALL!!
See how your statement is provoking and not so thought out? I can recognize that you have a problem with gypsies in your country but how can you not see the relation between your hatred for a specific group of people with previously done human cleansing etc.
You think that gypsies are murderers and thieves, I think that most other races have that too, but that doesn't mean we should murder them.
Because of mentality like yours the swedish police is at war with criminal immigrants
There will be criminal immigrants even if you started executing illegal immigrants on the spot. That isn't a solution, I realize nothing is 100%, but to act as if murdering them is the answer is just ridiculous.
On September 27 2011 21:26 aTnClouD wrote: tbh the only way of dealing with the gypsies problem is becoming a terrorist and kill as many as you can. if you drive them out of your country they will inevitably plague another place and it's a culture that is not really fit for living along with any other.
The only way of dealing with narrow minded rasists who plauge our society with their ignorance and non exisiting sympathy is to grab a gun and KILL THEM ALL!!
See how your statement is provoking and not so thought out? I can recognize that you have a problem with gypsies in your country but how can you not see the relation between your hatred for a specific group of people with previously done human cleansing etc.
You think that gypsies are murderers and thieves, I think that most other races have that too, but that doesn't mean we should murder them.
Because of mentality like yours the swedish police is at war with criminal immigrants
Oh boy here we go. This thread has become a complete clusterfuck of ignorance, racist comments and proof of Godwins law.
On September 29 2011 08:26 Nikon wrote: So, because other people in the thread say racist things, you think that I do too? Did you even read what I wrote or what?
Fucking trolls man...
You're right, because you are unable to understand my formatting and that my entire post isn't directed towards you I'm a troll. You are smart.
It depends on the context. If you truly hate someone who steals from you to feed their family as they may have no other way then I have issue with you. I understand you earned or were given what you have and it's yours, but people need to realize there are people on the other end as well. Sure, some of the time these are terrible people who deserve to be imprisoned or worse but acting as if they all should be is wrong
They have other way, but they choosed to steal no matter what. (even if govement helps them to find a job and give wellfare) So tell me am i a rasist? if not then all the text you wrote is false
HereticSaint, there's no point in trying to argue with people so blinded by hatred. They refuse to acknowledge any other side to the story, just "gypsys are lazy and selfish and bad people", without considering all the possible factors that led to that situation, as well as the problems in both sides. I've given up on this thread. It was stupid of me to believe that Europeans were any better than Americans when it came to hate and bigotry. American treatment of muslims, hispanics, gays, etc. is terrible in many cases, but this is the most openly racist thread I've ever seen on this website, and all the racism is coming from Europeans. You can keep saying "you're from the US/Canada, you don't know anything". It's still stupid logic, it's still wrong, and it still fails to justify the blatant racism and hatred that's here. I'm out of here. I hope I never see another thread this bad on TeamLiquid again
It depends on the context. If you truly hate someone who steals from you to feed their family as they may have no other way then I have issue with you. I understand you earned or were given what you have and it's yours, but people need to realize there are people on the other end as well. Sure, some of the time these are terrible people who deserve to be imprisoned or worse but acting as if they all should be is wrong
They have other way, but they choosed to steal no matter what. (even if govement helps them to find a job and give wellfare) So tell me am i a rasist? if not then all the text you wrote is false
See, you say they have other ways and yet they are met with racism when they try to integrate themselves (Maybe not by everyone, but clearly it's there) and at the same time people are proclaiming that the rest of the gypsy community turns on them. So everyone hates them, everyone attacks them, sometimes actually physically. Stealing doesn't seem so bad in comparison. Yes, stealing is wrong, no they shouldn't do it. But to say a majority of them do is silly.
Maybe if you take every crime imaginable, no matter how petty and then take the percentage of their population that actively do that or beg it's larger than other areas, but for some of them it very well can be out of necessity.
The problem isn't going to get better or go away, people should be focusing on how to improve it. Even if that doesn't mean more financial help and instead more speaking back and forth between the parties.
I don't go on a rant about how everyone on welfare in the US should be ostracized and if I were to have something stolen from me by a minority trying to feed their family, yes I would be pissed off that I had something stolen from me, but at the same time I wouldn't want them to die and I wouldn't start condemning all people from that minorities group.
So you are saying that stealing is ok if they feed their family with that money? In what kind of society do you want to live in? The level of hypocrisy in your posts is just amazing.
It is not racist to object a culture/lifestyle. If I say that I disagree with how they threat women in Saudi-Arabia, am I being racist, because it is their culture? Except for some idiots no one is suggesting that gypsys are born like that (Which is...well the definition of racism?), but most families have a lifestyle they object and I totaly agree with them on that.
I don't go on a rant about how everyone on welfare in the US should be ostracized and if I were to have something stolen from me by a minority trying to feed their family, yes I would be pissed off that I had something stolen from me, but at the same time I wouldn't want them to die and I wouldn't start condemning all people from that minorities group.
So you are saying that stealing is ok if they feed their family with that money? In what kind of society do you want to live in? The level of hypocrisy in your posts is just amazing.
It is not racist to object a culture/lifestyle. If I say that I disagree with how they threat women in Saudi-Arabia, am I being racist, because it is their culture? Except for some idiots no one is suggesting that gypsys are born like that (Which is...well the definition of racism?), but most families have a lifestyle they object and I totaly agree with them on that.
It becomes racist when they say that 99% of Saudi-Arabians beat their women, especially without studies to back it up. Yes, it probably happens a lot, but lumping them all in there just because you can is unfair and discriminatory judgment of a people as a whole.
Also, in that same post I point out that I don't think stealing is okay, but that to suggest murdering or dumping them in the middle of nowhere as an entire entity is a thousand times more ridiculous.
Last thing i would like to say: There is nothing that is preventing them from working hard or even educate themselves, but they will not do it. I had a roma classmate on highschool and she was absolutely perfect person and nobody had anything against her. She came from 2 kids family and both their parents had regular jobs. They can work, they can study - but they refuse to, because stealing and parasiting on people is much easier way to go. Sadly about 75% - 80% of roma in Czech republic are that way.
People in this thread still think that race even matters here, jesus christ. It's been explained too many times already, dont wanna do it again, look at the last 20 pages or so.
People are impervious to new/different information. I'll just bring back the culture card in case anyone missed the last 30 pages: When your parents teach you to steal for a living, I couldn't give an ounce of fuck about your slightly different chromatic alleles, what I care about is your culture that directly disrupts my society. Want to be a social deviant? Feel free to do so, just do it without your hand elbow-deep in my pockets.
I don't go on a rant about how everyone on welfare in the US should be ostracized and if I were to have something stolen from me by a minority trying to feed their family, yes I would be pissed off that I had something stolen from me, but at the same time I wouldn't want them to die and I wouldn't start condemning all people from that minorities group.
So you are saying that stealing is ok if they feed their family with that money? In what kind of society do you want to live in? The level of hypocrisy in your posts is just amazing.
It is not racist to object a culture/lifestyle. If I say that I disagree with how they threat women in Saudi-Arabia, am I being racist, because it is their culture? Except for some idiots no one is suggesting that gypsys are born like that (Which is...well the definition of racism?), but most families have a lifestyle they object and I totaly agree with them on that.
It becomes racist when they say that 99% of Saudi-Arabians beat their women, especially without studies to back it up. Yes, it probably happens a lot, but lumping them all in there just because you can is unfair and discriminatory judgment of a people as a whole.
Also, in that same post I point out that I don't think stealing is okay, but that to suggest murdering or dumping them in the middle of nowhere as an entire entity is a thousand times more ridiculous.
That's not racism, that's stereotyping. Racism suggests that something is inherently due to their biological race, which your statement does not say.
I haven't seen anyone here say that gypsies are biologically prone towards criminal behavior, so I'd say the accusations of racism are pretty unjustified.
If you want to talk about whether their statements consist of stereotypes, or whether or not their generalizations are justified or not, then do that instead of talking about racism.
People in this thread still think that race even matters here, jesus christ. It's been explained too many times already, dont wanna do it again, look at the last 20 pages or so.
People are impervious to new/different information. I'll just bring back the culture card in case anyone missed the last 30 pages: When your parents teach you to steal for a living, I couldn't give an ounce of fuck about your slightly different chromatic alleles, what I care about is your culture that directly disrupts my society. Want to be a social deviant? Feel free to do so, just do it without your hand elbow-deep in my pockets.
My response has an will be; LA Gang culture.
Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.
The people trying to make this some sort of technical linguistic debate are either missing the point or trying to redirect it somewhere that doesn't matter. Maybe it isn't dictionary definition of racism, but it is discrimination of an ethnicity based on the fact that they are an ethnicity and lumping them together as a whole piece even though they are individuals.
So nearly the same thing.
People aren't talking about thieves or murderers or gangs (At least the people I'm trying to respond to), they are talking about gypsies and labeling them all as this.
I hate racism. Ive been a victim of it and I hate it, but I dont think any of us who have never come in contact with gypsies in any way shape or form can really give a valid opinion here. We have no idea what the situation is like in Europe, weve never met the gypsies or even seen anything about them on TV.
How can we rightfully judge the Europeans to be shallow, racist people if we ourselves are making shallow judgments based on 0 exposure to the topic at hand?
what do u not get about a majority of gypsies living in accordance with gypsy culture not sending their children to school and instead forcing them to work the streets via begging, thieving or peddling wares like packs of lighters or small toys?
ive talked to kids who live like this, my cousin has befriended one and he gives regular updates about his life (he tried to go back to school by himself, got forced to go back to the streets by his family, he has to deliver a certain amount each night or else he gets beaten up, or at least thats what he claims)
this is real! what part of political correctness lets u immunize that kid's parents from criticism? and again, this aint a minority! among gypsies living in camps, this is the rule! its not about not having the means to survive either, those people got money, they got nice cars and all that jazz but they still dont care enough about their children to provide a better life for them!
do u think so many people in this thread are lying to u? whatever for? a whole bunch of europeans suddenly decided to troll a few americans and are laughing it up on irc now or something? sure there are some genuine idiots/racists here like that italian guy, but think a little before forming an opinion
on a sidenote, expecting stats and analyses concerning a largely unregistered group of people living mostly in rural eastern europe is... kind of unrealistic (i am greek, if u think we're good with statskeeping uve been out of the loop for a while :p )
See, you say they have other ways and yet they are met with racism when they try to integrate themselves (Maybe not by everyone, but clearly it's there) and at the same time people are proclaiming that the rest of the gypsy community turns on them. So everyone hates them, everyone attacks them, sometimes actually physically. Stealing doesn't seem so bad in comparison. Yes, stealing is wrong, no they shouldn't do it. But to say a majority of them do is silly.
Maybe if you take every crime imaginable, no matter how petty and then take the percentage of their population that actively do that or beg it's larger than other areas, but for some of them it very well can be out of necessity.
The problem isn't going to get better or go away, people should be focusing on how to improve it. Even if that doesn't mean more financial help and instead more speaking back and forth between the parties
I am glad that i am not a rasist in your view any more The problem with them will be here forever i guess because majority of them have no will to integrate no matter what. watch that documentary about bulgarian gypsies (some pages back) who live like a kings from what they stole -> then you will understant why SO HATE
It becomes racist when they say that 99% of Saudi-Arabians beat their women, especially without studies to back it up. Yes, it probably happens a lot, but lumping them all in there just because you can is unfair and discriminatory judgment of a people as a whole.
You really don't get what I'm saying here. I disagree with how they threat women in the Saudi-Arabian society as a whole. I disagree with their culture of patriarchy and I don't think it's justified by their religion or anything. Am I being ignorant, because I object this lifestyle? Are you that politically correct that you can't say that you don't accept this kind of behaviour?
People in this thread still think that race even matters here, jesus christ. It's been explained too many times already, dont wanna do it again, look at the last 20 pages or so.
People are impervious to new/different information. I'll just bring back the culture card in case anyone missed the last 30 pages: When your parents teach you to steal for a living, I couldn't give an ounce of fuck about your slightly different chromatic alleles, what I care about is your culture that directly disrupts my society. Want to be a social deviant? Feel free to do so, just do it without your hand elbow-deep in my pockets.
My response has an will be; LA Gang culture.
Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.
The people trying to make this some sort of technical linguistic debate are either missing the point or trying to redirect it somewhere that doesn't matter. Maybe it isn't dictionary definition of racism, but it is discrimination of an ethnicity based on the fact that they are an ethnicity and lumping them together as a whole piece even though they are individuals.
So nearly the same thing.
People aren't talking about thieves or murderers or gangs (At least the people I'm trying to respond to), they are talking about gypsies and labeling them all as this.
I dont see the issue here. It looks to me like the people youre arguing against are saying, "We hate their culture and that way of life" while youre saying "Dont blame it on their race, blame it on bad culture."
See, you say they have other ways and yet they are met with racism when they try to integrate themselves (Maybe not by everyone, but clearly it's there) and at the same time people are proclaiming that the rest of the gypsy community turns on them. So everyone hates them, everyone attacks them, sometimes actually physically. Stealing doesn't seem so bad in comparison. Yes, stealing is wrong, no they shouldn't do it. But to say a majority of them do is silly.
Maybe if you take every crime imaginable, no matter how petty and then take the percentage of their population that actively do that or beg it's larger than other areas, but for some of them it very well can be out of necessity.
The problem isn't going to get better or go away, people should be focusing on how to improve it. Even if that doesn't mean more financial help and instead more speaking back and forth between the parties
I am glad that i am not a rasist in your view any more The problem with them will be here forever i guess because majority of them have no will to integrate no matter what. watch that documentary about bulgarian gypsies (some pages back) who live like a kings from what they stole -> then you will understant why SO HATE
SO TO ALL AMERICANS : STOP CALL US RASISTS
I've watched the documentary already, I think there are two sides to it. Yes, some of them are legitimately evil probably but a lot of them are getting forced into it either by outside pressure or the people in power over the community who not only live like a king but rule like a king. You can't blame the roma people as a whole when this type of grasp on power is allowed to be maintained by people perpetuating this behavior.
Also, yes there are some people calling all Europeans racist but I am not one of them, there are some however that posted in this very thread and I was merely pointing towards them. (Or whatever you want to call discrimination against an ethnic minority as a whole due to incidents of parts of the whole).
People in this thread still think that race even matters here, jesus christ. It's been explained too many times already, dont wanna do it again, look at the last 20 pages or so.
People are impervious to new/different information. I'll just bring back the culture card in case anyone missed the last 30 pages: When your parents teach you to steal for a living, I couldn't give an ounce of fuck about your slightly different chromatic alleles, what I care about is your culture that directly disrupts my society. Want to be a social deviant? Feel free to do so, just do it without your hand elbow-deep in my pockets.
My response has an will be; LA Gang culture.
Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.
The people trying to make this some sort of technical linguistic debate are either missing the point or trying to redirect it somewhere that doesn't matter. Maybe it isn't dictionary definition of racism, but it is discrimination of an ethnicity based on the fact that they are an ethnicity and lumping them together as a whole piece even though they are individuals.
So nearly the same thing.
People aren't talking about thieves or murderers or gangs (At least the people I'm trying to respond to), they are talking about gypsies and labeling them all as this.
I dont see the issue here. It looks to me like the people youre arguing against are saying, "We hate their culture and that way of life" while youre saying "Dont blame it on their race, blame it on bad culture."
Arent you guys arguing the same point?
I'm trying to say that saying every roma is a thieving murderer is no better than if I go, "every African American living in LA is a member of a gang who engages in illegal activity, such as drugs, arms dealing, murder, robbery, etc".
People in this thread still think that race even matters here, jesus christ. It's been explained too many times already, dont wanna do it again, look at the last 20 pages or so.
People are impervious to new/different information. I'll just bring back the culture card in case anyone missed the last 30 pages: When your parents teach you to steal for a living, I couldn't give an ounce of fuck about your slightly different chromatic alleles, what I care about is your culture that directly disrupts my society. Want to be a social deviant? Feel free to do so, just do it without your hand elbow-deep in my pockets.
My response has an will be; LA Gang culture.
Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.
The people trying to make this some sort of technical linguistic debate are either missing the point or trying to redirect it somewhere that doesn't matter. Maybe it isn't dictionary definition of racism, but it is discrimination of an ethnicity based on the fact that they are an ethnicity and lumping them together as a whole piece even though they are individuals.
So nearly the same thing.
People aren't talking about thieves or murderers or gangs (At least the people I'm trying to respond to), they are talking about gypsies and labeling them all as this.
That's the thing, it's NOT. People don't hate them because they're brown, they hate them because they steal! Instead of acting like you're above technical issues like linguistics (i.e. using words the right way to facilitate communication), why don't you actually look at the logical steps you're taking in your arguments?
The fact that you're sloppy with your words just shows how sloppy your thinking is in general.
People in this thread still think that race even matters here, jesus christ. It's been explained too many times already, dont wanna do it again, look at the last 20 pages or so.
People are impervious to new/different information. I'll just bring back the culture card in case anyone missed the last 30 pages: When your parents teach you to steal for a living, I couldn't give an ounce of fuck about your slightly different chromatic alleles, what I care about is your culture that directly disrupts my society. Want to be a social deviant? Feel free to do so, just do it without your hand elbow-deep in my pockets.
My response has an will be; LA Gang culture.
Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.
The people trying to make this some sort of technical linguistic debate are either missing the point or trying to redirect it somewhere that doesn't matter. Maybe it isn't dictionary definition of racism, but it is discrimination of an ethnicity based on the fact that they are an ethnicity and lumping them together as a whole piece even though they are individuals.
So nearly the same thing.
People aren't talking about thieves or murderers or gangs (At least the people I'm trying to respond to), they are talking about gypsies and labeling them all as this.
I dont see the issue here. It looks to me like the people youre arguing against are saying, "We hate their culture and that way of life" while youre saying "Dont blame it on their race, blame it on bad culture."
Arent you guys arguing the same point?
exactly. This whole thread is a huge semantic clusterfuck.
Also blanket statements on both sides. "Everybody is racist", "Nobody has a racist motivation" "They all steal"(and again the semantic of who "they" are). This is a topic that wanders so far in the grey zone that any little statement that can be construed as "there is no fault on their side" or "we want discriminate against people for belonging to that group" immediately is met with vehement responses. Regardless of whether this was meant by the commenter or not.
People in this thread still think that race even matters here, jesus christ. It's been explained too many times already, dont wanna do it again, look at the last 20 pages or so.
People are impervious to new/different information. I'll just bring back the culture card in case anyone missed the last 30 pages: When your parents teach you to steal for a living, I couldn't give an ounce of fuck about your slightly different chromatic alleles, what I care about is your culture that directly disrupts my society. Want to be a social deviant? Feel free to do so, just do it without your hand elbow-deep in my pockets.
My response has an will be; LA Gang culture.
Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.
The people trying to make this some sort of technical linguistic debate are either missing the point or trying to redirect it somewhere that doesn't matter. Maybe it isn't dictionary definition of racism, but it is discrimination of an ethnicity based on the fact that they are an ethnicity and lumping them together as a whole piece even though they are individuals.
So nearly the same thing.
People aren't talking about thieves or murderers or gangs (At least the people I'm trying to respond to), they are talking about gypsies and labeling them all as this.
That's the thing, it's NOT. People don't hate them because they're brown, they hate them because they steal! Instead of acting like you're above technical issues like linguistics (i.e. using words the right way to facilitate communication), why don't you actually look at the logical steps you're taking in your arguments?
The fact that you're sloppy with your words just shows how sloppy your thinking is in general.
The problem comes when you label the thieves as a group of people.
It is the exact same thing again as if I were to go, "In order to cut down on illegal gang activity we need to target the African American population in Los Angeles." I would be targeting a group of people and going, "You are all a problem" even though some of them are a problem, even though their culture perpetuates it doesn't make it alright. You can call it political correctness if you want, I'm not trying to appease someones moral view here though, merely using my own.
I wouldnt really compare disliking an etchnical group because of existing concrete evidence to racism. We can face the fact the gypsies have existed in europe like forever, and yet they are not intecrated in the society by any measurable amount. really disliking gypsies in general is more comparable to that if you are not a fanboy of some given criminal organization.
Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.
You force me to start my reply with a sadface. You DON'T think LA Gang culture is a deviation hurtful to your society and that it needs to be stopped? I'm not talking about personal crusades, those would be themselves deviations. I'm talking about government and social action, which is the right response in a civilized state.
Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.
You force me to start my reply with a sadface. You DON'T think LA Gang culture is a deviation hurtful to your society and that it needs to be stopped? I'm not talking about personal crusades, those would be themselves deviations. I'm talking about government and social action, which is the right response in a civilized state.
Okay, reading the last page is really starting to make my head hurt.
He's simply making the distinction between "Those people over there are scum" and "Those people over there are scum, therefore everyone associated with them through biological means, is scum".
Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.
You force me to start my reply with a sadface. You DON'T think LA Gang culture is a deviation hurtful to your society and that it needs to be stopped? I'm not talking about personal crusades, those would be themselves deviations. I'm talking about government and social action, which is the right response in a civilized state.
The Government trying to stop these cultures from existing in their current form of perpetuating negative behavior, if done in the right way is great. The problem is, in this thread, people are going, "Well the Government has done everything it should, and the people of the countries have done everything to not be discriminatory they could." which leads to two places...
A) A group of people who go, "Guess we just wait for the Roma to man up and go through with it despite prejudices and hardships."
or
B) The group of people who go, "We should deport or kill them."
Yes, maybe the Roma will improve over time by themselves with the level of help and cooperation given, but depending on that to the point of being stagnant in how you interact with them isn't helpful. At the very least further discussions need to be had between them and the other races/ethnic groups to come to a better understanding and respect of one another.
People in this thread still think that race even matters here, jesus christ. It's been explained too many times already, dont wanna do it again, look at the last 20 pages or so.
People are impervious to new/different information. I'll just bring back the culture card in case anyone missed the last 30 pages: When your parents teach you to steal for a living, I couldn't give an ounce of fuck about your slightly different chromatic alleles, what I care about is your culture that directly disrupts my society. Want to be a social deviant? Feel free to do so, just do it without your hand elbow-deep in my pockets.
My response has an will be; LA Gang culture.
Does that all of a sudden give me a right to go on a crusade against minorities? No it doesn't.
The people trying to make this some sort of technical linguistic debate are either missing the point or trying to redirect it somewhere that doesn't matter. Maybe it isn't dictionary definition of racism, but it is discrimination of an ethnicity based on the fact that they are an ethnicity and lumping them together as a whole piece even though they are individuals.
So nearly the same thing.
People aren't talking about thieves or murderers or gangs (At least the people I'm trying to respond to), they are talking about gypsies and labeling them all as this.
That's the thing, it's NOT. People don't hate them because they're brown, they hate them because they steal! Instead of acting like you're above technical issues like linguistics (i.e. using words the right way to facilitate communication), why don't you actually look at the logical steps you're taking in your arguments?
The fact that you're sloppy with your words just shows how sloppy your thinking is in general.
The problem comes when you label the thieves as a group of people.
It is the exact same thing again as if I were to go, "In order to cut down on illegal gang activity we need to target the African American population in Los Angeles." I would be targeting a group of people and going, "You are all a problem" even though some of them are a problem, even though their culture perpetuates it doesn't make it alright. You can call it political correctness if you want, I'm not trying to appease someones moral view here though, merely using my own.
However, the "group" of pepole he talks about are based on a culture that promotes thievery and other bad stuff, it's not an ethnic group that has a lot of criminals, but a culture that promotes criminal activity by it own's merits! I remember someone giving a link to a study here that gypsy's have an 80% unemploymant rate in countries like Bulgaria and such, it isn't a leap of logic to assume that at least 75% of them are such criminals.
You can replace the word "gypsys" with "gangstas" for the same effect, it's obvious that they both mean Romans and Black Pepole, in the second example it also doesn't refer to all black pepole, but just the group who practicipates in "gangsta culture", now, in the gypsy's case, it's just that most of them come from this culture, and that their ethnicity's name isn't different from the name of their culture, so it is hard to seperate the two in a discussion.
On September 29 2011 09:05 HereticSaint wrote: At the very least further discussions need to be had between them and the other races/ethnic groups to come to a better understanding and respect of one another.
This and education is exactly what needs to be done. However the problem is that there is resistance to education and cross-cultural communication among a significant part of them (to a small part in the non-Roma community as well). There have been attempts of forced assimilation throughout history and even the multicultural poster-child Norway has felt in the past that forced assimilation was necessary (in 1896, when they weren't that much of a multicultural haven). Forcing them is clearly not what is right here but you have to understand the frustration that went into those decisions.
On September 29 2011 09:19 Awesomeness wrote: This thread is now about trying to explain the difference between culture and ethnicity to HereticSaint. I think we failed so far.
This thread is now about trying to explain how people have outright said to murder gypsies to Awesomeness. The next ignorant reply like this I get I'm going to outright ignore, just so anyone else feeling the need to make a similar one and derail the thread will know.
Just so everyone has an easy reference point from now on.
-cul·ture /ˈkʌltʃər/ Show Spelled [kuhl-cher] noun, verb, -tured, -tur·ing. noun 1. the quality in a person or society that arises from a concern for what is regarded as excellent in arts, letters, manners, scholarly pursuits, etc. 2. that which is excellent in the arts, manners, etc. 3. a particular form or stage of civilization, as that of a certain nation or period: Greek culture. 4. development or improvement of the mind by education or training. 5. the behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group: the youth culture; the drug culture.
-ethnic [eth-nik] Example Sentences Origin eth·nic /ˈɛθnɪk/ Show Spelled[eth-nik] adjective 1. pertaining to or characteristic of a people, especially a group (ethnic group) sharing a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like. 2. referring to the origin, classification, characteristics, etc., of such groups. 3. being a member of an ethnic group, especially of a group that is a minority within a larger society: ethnic Chinese in San Francisco. 4. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of members of such a group. 5. belonging to or deriving from the cultural, racial, religious, or linguistic traditions of a people or country: ethnic dances.
-rac·ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Show Spelled[rey-siz-uhm] noun 1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others. 2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination. 3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
-dis·crim·i·na·tion /dɪˌskrɪməˈneɪʃən/ Show Spelled[dih-skrim-uh-ney-shuhn] noun 1. an act or instance of discriminating. 2. treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination. 3. the power of making fine distinctions; discriminating judgment: She chose the colors with great discrimination. 4. Archaic . something that serves to differentiate.
This thread is now about trying to explain how people have outright said to murder gypsies to Awesomeness. The next ignorant reply like this I get I'm going to outright ignore, just so anyone else feeling the need to make a similar one and derail the thread will know.
Nobody who is trying to have a serious discussion here is saying that, yet you keep mentioning those retards like they represent the views of anyone who discussed this topic with you on the last few pages. I guess this is a stupid reply, so please ignore it.
This thread is now about trying to explain how people have outright said to murder gypsies to Awesomeness. The next ignorant reply like this I get I'm going to outright ignore, just so anyone else feeling the need to make a similar one and derail the thread will know.
Nobody who is trying to have a serious discussion here is saying that, yet you keep mentioning those retards like they represent the views of anyone who discussed this topic with you on the last few pages. I guess this is a stupid reply, so please ignore it.
I've been having a discussion with people who actually want to talk about solving the problem.
The only people I'm shouting, "racism" at and talking to about things boiling down to semantics are the actual people who are being discriminatory towards to a group of people as a whole despite the merits of the individuals (or the people who outright want to talk about semantics for some ridiculous reason). Gypsy or roma to me is not interchangeable with murderer or thief, sorry.
What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general?
I think this is the problem, the bolded part, that people think gypsies are a problem, there is no difference between people and people. But if a group grow up disliked/hated by the community for some reason, it is bound to be so that a bigger part of that group becomes criminals. This because they feel excluded by society and thus feels no need to respect the rules of society (as they don't feel like are they are considered a part of it).
It's kind of a circular, which makes it hard to break. But personally I feel media is the only one who has the power to really break it, by stopping all kinds of negative news about the group as a group, and instead seeing it as individuals (ie someone got murdered by someone, not someone got murdered by a gypsy). Some might say that it should be up to the gypsies to break the circle, but that's ridicilous, as there is A LOT of gypsies trying to do just that, but there only needs to be a few "bad ones" to keep their bad name alive.
The gypsy situation is kind of depressive, because meanwhile nearly all forms of racism is strictly tabu in Europe, seemingly racism against gypsies is not (to the same extent). The same thing is slowly becoming true for muslims aswell :/.
What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general?
I think this is the problem, the bolded part, that people think gypsies are a problem, there is no difference between people and people. But if a group grow up disliked/hated by the community for some reason, it is bound to be so that a bigger part of that group becomes criminals. This because they feel excluded by society and thus feels no need to respect the rules of society (as they don't feel like are they are considered a part of it).
It's kind of a circular, which makes it hard to break. But personally I feel media is the only one who has the power to really break it, by stopping all kinds of negative news about the group as a group, and instead seeing it as individuals (ie someone got murdered by someone, not someone got murdered by a gypsy). Some might say that it should be up to the gypsies to break the circle, but that's ridicilous, as there is A LOT of gypsies trying to do just that, but there only needs to be a few "bad ones" to keep their bad name alive.
lol. there is no difference between people...? Yes, there is a huge difference between gypsies and other citizens. they have been disliked by all nations they have moved to since hundreds of years ago, and that is because of their thief culture.
you want the media to hide the facts, just like they do in Sweden? what a joke.
What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general?
I think this is the problem, the bolded part, that people think gypsies are a problem, there is no difference between people and people. But if a group grow up disliked/hated by the community for some reason, it is bound to be so that a bigger part of that group becomes criminals. This because they feel excluded by society and thus feels no need to respect the rules of society (as they don't feel like are they are considered a part of it).+ Show Spoiler +
It's kind of a circular, which makes it hard to break. But personally I feel media is the only one who has the power to really break it, by stopping all kinds of negative news about the group as a group, and instead seeing it as individuals (ie someone got murdered by someone, not someone got murdered by a gypsy). Some might say that it should be up to the gypsies to break the circle, but that's ridicilous, as there is A LOT of gypsies trying to do just that, but there only needs to be a few "bad ones" to keep their bad name alive.
The gypsy situation is kind of depressive, because meanwhile nearly all forms of racism is strictly tabu in Europe, seemingly racism against gypsies is not (to the same extent). The same thing is slowly becoming true for muslims aswell :/.
Do you really feel that this is the one singular reason? Is it really so hard to believe that this is an issue that has been fostered by both sides? This is a topic where both sides are victims and perpetrators. I know that assigning blame to the minority plays into the right extremists hands but so does completely ignoring one side of the problem.
What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general?
I think this is the problem, the bolded part, that people think gypsies are a problem, there is no difference between people and people. But if a group grow up disliked/hated by the community for some reason, it is bound to be so that a bigger part of that group becomes criminals. This because they feel excluded by society and thus feels no need to respect the rules of society (as they don't feel like are they are considered a part of it).
It's kind of a circular, which makes it hard to break. But personally I feel media is the only one who has the power to really break it, by stopping all kinds of negative news about the group as a group, and instead seeing it as individuals (ie someone got murdered by someone, not someone got murdered by a gypsy). Some might say that it should be up to the gypsies to break the circle, but that's ridicilous, as there is A LOT of gypsies trying to do just that, but there only needs to be a few "bad ones" to keep their bad name alive.
lol. there is no difference between people...? Yes, there is a huge difference between gypsies and other citizens. they have been disliked by all nations they have moved to since hundreds of years ago, and that is because of their thief culture.
you want the media to hide the facts, just like they do in Sweden? what a joke.
I think what he is trying to say is that there is a reason for this behaviour. If you say that they behave badly because of their culture, what makes their culture promote this kind of behaviour. You either believe that this group of people are somehow biologically inferior or you believe that their circumstances bring about these actions. This is what he means when he says "there is no difference between people and people"
Well, what is about their circumstances / culture that causes this behaviour? It is very easy to say "They behave that way because that is how they always behaved". It is much harder to say "They behave that way because they believe that by integrating that are losing their history and this is more important to them than conforming to society's expectations." An alternative explanation may be that it is simply easier for them to "leach" off of society than it is to integrate. Well that isn't a problem with gypsies it is a problem with governance. Find a reason and you can find a solution.
Ultimately blaming a people as a whole is a nice excuse to ignore a real problem. You either believe there is a reason people behave like this, or you believe thay cannot be helped.
You racist! No you don't understand! You racist! No you don't understand! You racist! No you don't understand! You racist! No you don't understand! You racist! No you don't understand! You racist! No you don't understand!
for 35 pages, lol. The truth is, we Bulgarians are among the most tolerant people (well, unless you count gays out those are still facing some hard times unless you're a famous gay of course). We've been tolerating governments that lie and steal for 20 years and then before that another government for 40 years that was even worse. It's just that the gypsies live off of out backs and for the vast majority don't want to start working and learning. But these riots are silly, they won't achieve anything and are mostly reason for the football (soccer) hooligans to get out there and break shit. Same applies for gypsy crowds getting together and looking for fights. It's how things work around here. Not nearly as entertaining and interesting as it might look from the outside I'm afraid
Circular logic is claiming that gypsies are commiting crimes because they aren't accepted into society.
Gypsy culture has rejected mainstream society, it never intends to integrate. That would all be fine and dandy if they could actually support themselves, but they can't.
So what is one to do who doesn't want to become a part of society but does want all the perks like food? Build your own industry to provide these things or steal. The more likely choice is obvious.
Gypsies are never going to integrate because they don't want to integrate. They will keep stealing because they don't have much of an alternative when they are busy actively rejecting mainstream society.
The solution isn't to be nice and invite them into society because their response will be "thanks but no thanks".
To classify them as a culture of thieves is actually far more accurate then to claim they are innocent since the majority engage in criminal activity.
Or maybe go the dutch approach. We give them villa's to live in. For some strange reason they still keep being anti-social rejects despite living tax free in a house far bigger then mine whilst i had to actually work for it.
Can anyone honestly read all that & still claim that European society is innocent in all this.
I have read that ,but.... European society can't become slave of gypsies who in some way are rasist towards the rest of people by their behavior We are doing as much as we can, it was said here so many times..... Just look at those 2 pictures at bottom of your link (those buldings were almost brand new), do you really think that some other culture could live in garbage? The only mamal who lives in garbage is ... you know what animal i mean
What exactly are we supposed to do when any attempt to integrate these people into modern society is met with the same results ; they take whatever money or goods are given to them as help, use it all up and leave to do it again in the next place they go. They come to a city/village, choose a soccer field, park or open public space, install themselves on it and completly trash the place, steal power from the grid and break water lines to get water while refusing any help from the outside. If you try to speak to them they won't answer, every place they go is met with a rise in criminality, and they don't accept any help.
All the above is personal experience and facts, now maybe the people crying for racism (I do agree that some posts here are borderline racist or just plain racist) and that the solution is easy can tell us what to do?
On September 29 2011 16:46 Rebel_lion wrote: They should go steal some computers and internet so they can defend themselves from this mob.
Even if they did, they are illiterate because 90% of their children quit school before the end of 4th grade and still wouldn't be able to defend their self.
Not sure how many people saw this, but the fans of the Russian football champion Zenit Peterburg showed their support after their victory in a game from the Champions league, by putting up a poster, which reads: "България за българите, а не за мръсотия!" which translated means "Bulgaria for the bulgarians, not for dirt." Here's a pic of the poster: Also if some of the people here can read russian here's a link for a russian news site which did a more objective and overall better coverage of the event than most of the local media here, because they are not on a payroll by the gypsy mafia bosses. http://www.rg.ru/2011/09/27/bolgariya-pogromy-site.html
On September 29 2011 15:12 zalz wrote: Circular logic is claiming that gypsies are commiting crimes because they aren't accepted into society. They dont want to get in society, they have their century old rules and still live by them.How can you get accepted in a society when you dont do something good for it, aka working and paying taxes like everybody else.They dont go to schools, many of them are 40years old and dont know how to write or read, but they have driving license and drive 40-100k euro cars.
Gypsy culture has rejected mainstream society, it never intends to integrate.That would all be fine and dandy if they could actually support themselves, but they can't. Really? palace 1 palace 2 palace 3 Then i guess these palaces just built themselves.All of them are built with money form begging, stealing and other criminal activities.They have these palaces and still take social security, cause they have no job->no income, and the IRS doesnt even bother to check where the money came form.So next time think before giving a coin to a gypsy, because you are helping them buy cars and houses you will never have in your life even if u work 24/7.
So what is one to do who doesn't want to become a part of society but does want all the perks like food? Build your own industry to provide these things or steal. The more likely choice is obvious. True.
Gypsies are never going to integrate because they don't want to integrate. They will keep stealing because they don't have much of an alternative when they are busy actively rejecting mainstream society. Very true!They dont give a crap about reintegration programs in society and schools.
The solution isn't to be nice and invite them into society because their response will be "thanks but no thanks". True, the only way is to force them, you need to make them understand that this is the 21st century and not the middle ages.
To classify them as a culture of thieves is actually far more accurate then to claim they are innocent since the majority engage in criminal activity.
Or maybe go the dutch approach. We give them villa's to live in. For some strange reason they still keep being anti-social rejects despite living tax free in a house far bigger then mine whilst i had to actually work for it.
^ The above poster isn't simply quoting a comment but adding in his own writing in italics, in case anyone thinks of slamming him for only quoting a post.
That said, later than usual on the entry to controversial threads, zalz, but as you see much detail has already spent (including a bit from myself) on dispersing the myths of unanimous Bulgarian and Romanian racism and gypsies not being allowed to be a part of society that a few of my Internet hero countrymen and people to the north seem to be claiming here.
Overall, this thread comes down to people who experience this everyday and know what goes on, against people who probably have never heard of Romania or Bulgaria outside of some random mention who are claiming that there is nothing wrong with how Gypsies (as in, the overwhelming majority of their population, not a completely negligible number of gangsta thugs who completely contradict their American culture and social values, who on top of that, are part of American society, not their own) do things and all fault is placed on the Bulgarians, Romanians, French, etc., who are supposedly all terribly hateful people.
Is this trolling, or just unexplainable fanatical rejection of simple facts?
This thread hurts my head. First some definitions (personal ones, to avoid confusion): Roma = ethnicity, gypsy = someone practicing gypsy culture.
- The overwhelming majority of gypsies steals and begs. - They are offered help but they refuse it. - They are offered free schooling for their children but they refuse it. - Even if their children go to school they pull them out at young age to teach them how to beg and steal. - They are impossible to integrate as they don't even want to. - They live off welfare and stealing and have no plans to change that. - They exploit their children.
These are facts about gypsies according to people that actually live there and people that studied them (check the definition above before you go ranting about generalizations!). How is the gypsy culture not a thieving culture, a bad culture? Now you tell me how in god's name this is racism as I haven't seen any 'fact' yet about how Roma people are inherently evil.
The cultural hate cannot be compared to antisemitism as antisemitism is based on untrue facts (and it is racism). Cultural/lifestyle hate is completely fine as long as it is based on facts. Races do not have inherent bad traits. Cultures do. You cannot change your race. You can change your culture. Some cultures are just inferior to others and apparently the gypsy culture is such a culture.
As for the solution, I have no clue as I don't live there and I don't know how bad it really is or how corrupt the government really is. However, the solution has to be a solution that civilized humans beings can condone of course. No one here is suggesting we should exterminate all gypsies (if we ignore Cloud, obviously).
What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general?
I think this is the problem, the bolded part, that people think gypsies are a problem, there is no difference between people and people. But if a group grow up disliked/hated by the community for some reason, it is bound to be so that a bigger part of that group becomes criminals. This because they feel excluded by society and thus feels no need to respect the rules of society (as they don't feel like are they are considered a part of it).
It's kind of a circular, which makes it hard to break. But personally I feel media is the only one who has the power to really break it, by stopping all kinds of negative news about the group as a group, and instead seeing it as individuals (ie someone got murdered by someone, not someone got murdered by a gypsy). Some might say that it should be up to the gypsies to break the circle, but that's ridicilous, as there is A LOT of gypsies trying to do just that, but there only needs to be a few "bad ones" to keep their bad name alive.
lol. there is no difference between people...? Yes, there is a huge difference between gypsies and other citizens. they have been disliked by all nations they have moved to since hundreds of years ago, and that is because of their thief culture.
you want the media to hide the facts, just like they do in Sweden? what a joke.
Wow, a Swede that isn't blinded by "multicultural" views?
this thread truly saddens me. it really predicts the future... in few years, when the civil war breaks out all the eastern euros will be like "we knew it"... while all the outsider will be still blinking their eye like "how could it happen?" you dont have no idea how much people being fed up both from the gypsys activities and both from others labeling them as racist everytime they trying to talk open about the issues... and no... not some right-wingers. not football hooligans... everyone. left-wing voters, elders, young, those who live in big citys, especially those who are in villages...etc
On September 29 2011 18:05 hgt1002 wrote: this thread truly saddens me. it really predicts the future... in few years, when the civil war breaks out all the eastern euros will be like "we knew it"... while all the outsider will be still blinking their eye like "how could it happen?" you dont have no idea how much people being fed up both from the gypsys activities and both from others labeling them as racist everytime they trying to talk open about the issues... and no... not some right-wingers. not football hooligans... everyone. left-wing voters, elders, young, those who live in big citys, especially those who are in villages...etc
That is exactly my view on this situation. I mean seriously, almost all of my friends and people i know don't like or let's say even hate roma (cikany). Does it mean they are all just making stuff up and they are racist?
We are already at a state when negotiating with those people has failed and it is time to take action. If the government doesn't do something fast, more and more people will start thinking according to Cloud's post and it will be just a matter of time before something terrible happens.
On September 29 2011 16:46 Rebel_lion wrote: They should go steal some computers and internet so they can defend themselves from this mob.
Edit- When i lived in Germany the locals would all say the same things about Turkish people for what its worth. Are they as bad as gypsies?
Its not even a comparison. At the end of the day turks are like everyone else. Sure there are problems with some turks, but its mostly kurds and rural turks from eastern turkey. But most of them still try to work and earn money. Gypsies on the other hand are hated by everyone. They are looked down upon by every immigrant I ever talked to, because they are the ones who have to live in their neigbourhood. There should be a law that gypsie parents are held responsible for their childrens actions, but it will never happen because it targets only one group and is "unfair".
And to give you background to understand this problem and this "hate" better imagine you're not living in USA, Sweden, Norway etc. Nope, you're living in Romania or Bulgaria where justice is crap, it's hard to live (we're quite poor), the police is pretty much useless, the corruption is blatant.
Back in the communist era of Romania (i don't know how it was in Bulgaria) the militia (the police from back then) was very harsh, we had a very high level of security (simply because the state couldn't afford to have any citizens revolt for anything) so even with their culture, so the gypsies were forced to work in factories and etc, school was compulsory so a decent number of gypsies had the chance to finish a school, and the level of criminality was very low, and even so most were getting caught which gave an example to anyone inclined for an "easier living".
On September 29 2011 18:45 Pika Chu wrote: And to give you background to understand this problem and this "hate" better imagine you're not living in USA, Sweden, Norway etc. Nope, you're living in Romania or Bulgaria where justice is crap, it's hard to live (we're quite poor), the police is pretty much useless, the corruption is blatant.
Back in the communist era of Romania (i don't know how it was in Bulgaria) the militia (the police from back then) was very harsh, we had a very high level of security (simply because the state couldn't afford to have any citizens revolt for anything) so even with their culture, so the gypsies were forced to work in factories and etc, school was compulsory so a decent number of gypsies had the chance to finish a school, and the level of criminality was very low, and even so most were getting caught which gave an example to anyone inclined for an "easier living".
On September 29 2011 18:37 Ricjames wrote: If the government doesn't do something fast, more and more people will start thinking according to Cloud's post and it will be just a matter of time before something terrible happens.
well it already started to happen. that is a 2 year old article. there was other random murders, and comitters was caught... but it makes you wonder, how much time we have left until the next one? or how much time until it start to happen again in a larger scale?
On September 29 2011 17:22 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: ^ The above poster isn't simply quoting a comment but adding in his own writing in italics, in case anyone thinks of slamming him for only quoting a post.
That said, later than usual on the entry to controversial threads, zalz, but as you see much detail has already spent (including a bit from myself) on dispersing the myths of unanimous Bulgarian and Romanian racism and gypsies not being allowed to be a part of society that a few of my Internet hero countrymen and people to the north seem to be claiming here.
Overall, this thread comes down to people who experience this everyday and know what goes on, against people who probably have never heard of Romania or Bulgaria outside of some random mention who are claiming that there is nothing wrong with how Gypsies (as in, the overwhelming majority of their population, not a completely negligible number of gangsta thugs who completely contradict their American culture and social values, who on top of that, are part of American society, not their own) do things and all fault is placed on the Bulgarians, Romanians, French, etc., who are supposedly all terribly hateful people.
Is this trolling, or just unexplainable fanatical rejection of simple facts?
Exactly Very True
Read a lot of this thread and basically bunch of people who never had to live or deal with Gypsies for their whole life (Hypocrites basically) And they come here and try to tell people who have to deal with Gypsies their whole life and try and tell them how their wrong...
But if they don't experience it first-hand they don't understand the entirety of the social issue and are defending something they understand nothing about
I have a pretty efficient solution. Everyone who is like super tolerant and believes all cultures are equal and all that jazz, they can each adopt one gipsy family and show them some love.
That way you can put your foot where your mouth is and actually do some good.
Anyone who complains that roma people are a trouble is a simple narrow minded self-righteous prick .... I live in Romania so I'm closest to the "treath" , truth be told they sure are annoying at times but since white people have been racist for like ever they have allways been treated with and offensive attitude . It's basically the nomad race against the static culture that don't want anyone in their back yard ... If roma people were welcomed in europe long time ago without any sense of racism or anything ( I know if this were the case we were traveling in space ships and use teleportation to move fro country to another - Because people would rather focus on compassion rather than on hate and racism , and more people would have time to research stuff + I hope you all realise how much of the money and time of scientists goes into military research ) , they would be decent people even right now .
And even so there are really cool roma people aswell , they're not all stealers , etcetc . Pretty rare breed but I thing it's the same percentage of cool people that there is in any culture . Just that their scum is worse then most of cultures ... Directly ... By ideology white people are way more scum than roma people .
Sad thing they are not really that aggressive tho .... If they were like the bloods or the creeps it would've been more fun because no1 would have enough balls to bitch about them.
Look a simple solution to solve to roma people ... Take all the profit money that is made from cancer treatments ( that in all cases destroy the human immune system + medical insurance doesn't cover it ) and give it towards the education of the "bad breed" amongst us . If you don't know about it .... It's the most profitable section of the medical system .
To all you white trash ( I'm not implying you are , but by probability theory some of you must be like that ) , I can tell the same classic thing . Enjoy you coffees , your cigarettes , your depressions , your white suites and the moments when you realize your life is useless.
bone7 you sure you live in romania?What did you smoke today? I would rather give money to research making the sky pink, for genetically engineering catgirls and flying pigs and then give money for the "bad breed". Cool gypsies?Are you a "manelist"or "cocalar"? They are not agressive?Really?Really? I Mean REALLY? They arent when you stay in your house or cruise in a car and dont go outside after 10pm. I would rather enjoy coffe, cigarettes and a cold beer then give them money.And helping the "bad breed" sure makes our days so much fun and happy and we can go to sleep happy and dream of electric sheeps.
Sad thing they are not really that aggressive tho .... If they were like the bloods or the creeps it would've been more fun because no1 would have enough balls to bitch about them.
Look a simple solution to solve to roma people ... Take all the profit money that is made from cancer treatments ( that in all cases destroy the human immune system + medical insurance doesn't cover it ) and give it towards the education of the "bad breed" amongst us . If you don't know about it .... It's the most profitable section of the medical system .
that is some hardcore idiotism right there may i ask how old are u?
What do you think about the violences in Bulgaria and the gypsy problem in Europe in general?
I think this is the problem, the bolded part, that people think gypsies are a problem, there is no difference between people and people. But if a group grow up disliked/hated by the community for some reason, it is bound to be so that a bigger part of that group becomes criminals. This because they feel excluded by society and thus feels no need to respect the rules of society (as they don't feel like are they are considered a part of it).
It's kind of a circular, which makes it hard to break. But personally I feel media is the only one who has the power to really break it, by stopping all kinds of negative news about the group as a group, and instead seeing it as individuals (ie someone got murdered by someone, not someone got murdered by a gypsy). Some might say that it should be up to the gypsies to break the circle, but that's ridicilous, as there is A LOT of gypsies trying to do just that, but there only needs to be a few "bad ones" to keep their bad name alive.
lol. there is no difference between people...? Yes, there is a huge difference between gypsies and other citizens. they have been disliked by all nations they have moved to since hundreds of years ago, and that is because of their thief culture.
you want the media to hide the facts, just like they do in Sweden? what a joke.
I think what he is trying to say is that there is a reason for this behaviour. If you say that they behave badly because of their culture, what makes their culture promote this kind of behaviour. You either believe that this group of people are somehow biologically inferior or you believe that their circumstances bring about these actions. This is what he means when he says "there is no difference between people and people"
Well, what is about their circumstances / culture that causes this behaviour? It is very easy to say "They behave that way because that is how they always behaved". It is much harder to say "They behave that way because they believe that by integrating that are losing their history and this is more important to them than conforming to society's expectations." An alternative explanation may be that it is simply easier for them to "leach" off of society than it is to integrate. Well that isn't a problem with gypsies it is a problem with governance. Find a reason and you can find a solution.
Ultimately blaming a people as a whole is a nice excuse to ignore a real problem. You either believe there is a reason people behave like this, or you believe thay cannot be helped.
It's probably more socially accepted to steal in their culture. A gypsy who steal from non gypsies wont be deemed an outcast and rejected by his family. If this is true no further explanation is needed, it's just a rotten culture which does not fit in a modern society, for other purposes than leeching.
I'm sure they would steal less if their families rejected them for doing it, not that they are likely to do it since they all grew up in that environment.
Sad thing they are not really that aggressive tho .... If they were like the bloods or the creeps it would've been more fun because no1 would have enough balls to bitch about them.
Look a simple solution to solve to roma people ... Take all the profit money that is made from cancer treatments ( that in all cases destroy the human immune system + medical insurance doesn't cover it ) and give it towards the education of the "bad breed" amongst us . If you don't know about it .... It's the most profitable section of the medical system .
On September 29 2011 16:46 Rebel_lion wrote: Edit- When i lived in Germany the locals would all say the same things about Turkish people for what its worth. Are they as bad as gypsies?
Sadly, if some of our angry Eastern European friends would visit over on this end, they'd be bound to run into some of that at some point as well. But that's completely different. We just don't know. /facepalm
I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc.
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
would you act like a coward if it be your country? and from who would bad gypsies steal then if everyone flee?
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc.
At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved.
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Dunno, about others, but there much more things different than money and work for which I`m attached to my country. Bulgarians live here for thousands of years and cant imagine myself leaving it, because of the gypsies.
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
afaik its already happening, many young people i know actually willing to leave... but its not so easy to leave behind the country you grown up, leaving all your family, friends etc... speaking only for myself here, but until hungary doesnt fall completely ill be here for the last minute trying to make it better... running away isnt a solution. and in other countrys you will be... well... threated like an immigrant. years have to pass until you climb up the ladder and will actually be seen equal to other countrys natives. at least this is the case with hungarians i spoke with coming home from the UK. maybe its sentiment but i will rather die on my feet than live on my knees.
Rough translation: The woman thinks blending in society, going to school and work is threatening the whole gypsy culture. The gypsy guy on left suggested that and got a lot of hate from other gypsies.
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
I have left my country, Bulgaria, leaving the leeches leech from themselves. However, when I came to YOUR country (the Netherlands), I realized that it is your government that is preventing me to work freely, makes me have a residence permit, etc. etc. Comeon, I am from the freaking EU, why should I go through all this as a guy from Spain, for example, doesn't have to go through such hassle only to be allowed to stay in the country and work?
I will tell you why: because there is some prejudice towards Bulgarians and Romanians even in the ever so tolerant Dutch. Because, contrary to what is believed in this topic, that Bulgarians/Romanians are racist towards their gypsy population, western European countries DEPORTED the gypsies they had and also deny free entrance/work of people from the countries from which the gypsies originate. How hypocritical is that?
We are the racist, but we allow them to work, we allow them to go to school, we give them social benefits, flats, free electricity, social integration programs and the such, while for us, who are rightful members of the EU, it is hard to even go to Holland and find a job there. Luckily for me, I finished my university education in the Netherlands and managed to easily find a job in programming, but some other people are not that lucky. AND THE SOLE REASON those restrictions apply is because of the ignorance of western governments who don't want to do anything with gypsies (yes, I said it), but fail to realize that Bulgarians/Romanians are not necessarily gypsies. The hypocrisy in this thread is overwhelming. If you deny, explain to me what is that:
Western countries are 10 times more racist than Bulgarians and Romanians who might say some harsh words toward their gypsies, might have tension with them but at least they LIVE with them, while western countries DEPORT them.
As an American who is proud of my nation's long internal struggle against racism and intolerance, and one who is deeply skeptical of cultural explanations for people's behavior, I have the following questions.
How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc.
At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved.
It's a question of wether or not it's a lost cause yet, or not.
On September 29 2011 20:47 tree.hugger wrote: As an American who is proud of my nation's long internal struggle against racism and intolerance, and one who is deeply skeptical of cultural explanations for people's behavior, I have the following questions.
How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
I have lived 18 years of my life in Bulgaria, in Plovdiv. I know many Romani people, let's say over 100. I have had my shoes stolen (while I was still in them) when I was young and my wallet in a bus. I have seen maybe 10+ times how old men and women are robbed by gypsies in buses or on the streets. I have seen their children beg on the street almost every day, trying to rob tourists in the main street. I have seen the places they live in.
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
I have left my country, Bulgaria, leaving the leeches leech from themselves. However, when I came to YOUR country (the Netherlands), I realized that it is your government that is preventing me to work freely, makes me have a residence permit, etc. etc. Comeon, I am from the freaking EU, why should I go through all this as a guy from Spain, for example, doesn't have to go through such hassle only to be allowed to stay in the country and work?
I will tell you why: because there is some prejudice towards Bulgarians and Romanians even in the ever so tolerant Dutch. Because, contrary to what is believed in this topic, that Bulgarians/Romanians are racist towards their gypsy population, western European countries DEPORTED the gypsies they had and also deny free entrance/work of people from the countries from which the gypsies originate. How hypocritical is that?
We are the racist, but we allow them to work, we allow them to go to school, we give them social benefits, flats, free electricity, social integration programs and the such, while for us, who are rightful members of the EU, it is hard to even go to Holland and find a job there. Luckily for me, I finished my university education in the Netherlands and managed to easily find a job in programming, but some other people are not that lucky. AND THE SOLE REASON those restrictions apply is because of the ignorance of western governments who don't want to do anything with gypsies (yes, I said it), but fail to realize that Bulgarians/Romanians are not necessarily gypsies. The hypocrisy in this thread is overwhelming. If you deny, explain to me what is that:
You're right, it's bullshit. Western European Government's aren't blind, they know that any bad publicity from immigration is going to hurt them down the line. There is a large number of people who want to believe all immigrants want to steal benefits and if you give them any ammunition at all then they'll fuck you over in the next election. On the other side there are even more people who will give them shit if they say "no gypsies, everyone else is fine". The solution they've come up with is to ban Romanians and Bulgarians which is sufficiently broad that it doesn't look aimed at any one section of the population. You guys are collateral damage and it's shit.
On September 29 2011 20:47 tree.hugger wrote: As an American who is proud of my nation's long internal struggle against racism and intolerance, and one who is deeply skeptical of cultural explanations for people's behavior, I have the following questions.
How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
if every of us had a direct problem with these people i guess they would have had their ass kicked long time ago, i mean, if they directly steal from everyone in the country, it wouldn't take long before people took actions, we aren't that tolerant either. but pretty much everyone knows someone in his family that did have a direct problem, for me, my uncle got his car almost stolen from one of these guys, how did he know ? well, people have eyes, when, some years ago. if you talk about less direct problems, pretty much every time there are these people somewhere and you stay long enough, there will be a problem with someone, just because starring at them is considered a lack of respect (why should we respect them anyway, they are useless for our society). i used to know 1 guy that moved to my village, his father got in jail and him and his mother tried to go away from him and these people and he was not supposed to find them because they were in danger, the kid had pretty much huge lack of social skills, looked like a model kid at times and complete scum at other times, you could tell his moral had been damaged already hopefully he isn't completly lost.
On September 29 2011 20:47 tree.hugger wrote: As an American who is proud of my nation's long internal struggle against racism and intolerance, and one who is deeply skeptical of cultural explanations for people's behavior, I have the following questions.
How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
Being raised to be cautious and avoid bad areas and parks alone, I only lost about 2-3 bikes when i was young. I cant guarantee they were stolen by gypsies, I suspect they only stole 1 bike from me, the others... well who knows. I have been assaulted about 5+ times for being white however. I count to this even the smaller assaults, but 2 times I have been beaten up by a group of 6+ gypsies cause I was alone and they just can. They express their hatred and racism (calling us white swine etc.) loudly, without any repercussions. They even mock us, latest example would be I saw a guy who was obviously walking to work being shouted at from a window something like "yeah go and work so we can live our lives on your money haha"
However one thing that has not really been well established is that, besides what you may think from reading this thread, we rarely express our hatred towards them directly at them, we only speak this among friends and in anger because if we were to say the same thing they do openly, it would very likely have some consequences.
Bear in mind that here in Czech Republic gypsies are a very small minority, compared to the other countries we have nothing to complain about, but even in these numbers they have managed to turn everyone against them.
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Its not hard to leave the country, bus tickets and even plane tickets are cheap, the problem is most of our studies here are not recognized by other countries, for example an account or lawyer here cant practice in other country cause they have a totally different system.This applies mostly to all high payed and high responsability jobs so most of the people who leave Romania or Bulgaria work as cleaners, sell at fast foods, construction and other kind of lol jobs, even if they have a good training in their home countries.So we would have to study again in the country we go and not everyone speaks and writes good other languages.Most of the good payed jobs that we can have in the west are in the healthcare system, but not all of us are medics and such.
How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
ive been robbed 3 times. its easy to recognize them as they have dark skin color and speak with strong accent. all the 3 times i happened on the train. old trains was very dangerous at that time, but there was no other way to travel to school. now there is new trains which have camera in it with security guards, so at least public safety improved in the past years...
1, i had to trade my heaphones to a useless sim card. its hard to not agree with them it is a good trade when 6 of them standing around you with no other people in sight. 2, i was sitting next to the door, was just smashed in the head from behind and got my pockets emptied. i had 10$ and a half pack of cigarettes. 3, i was traveled in an empty car (the whole train was empty, it was pretty late) when a guy sitted front of me in a position where hes knees framed mine. first he said i give him my mp3 player as a gift. than he took out the sim card from my cellphone as a gift too (in case if i get off the train wont be able to call the police immediately). than he took out the card holder from my pockets, taking out the personal ID card and address certifiate and started to ask if i have a mother and a father, do i love them etc... you go figure.
id say the 3rd one was by far the most serious as the guy was clearly on some drug, huge black pupils, sweating, speaking incoherently sometimes... i learned to handle gypsys pretty well, to say the least most of them not really intelligent so its easy to make them leave satisfied with very little value been lost without suffering any harm, however with this guy it was very different. he was completely unpredictable and was impossible to tell what will happen in the next minute.
i know one family who lived a decent life despite selling amphetamine. i was a friend with their son until they moved. idk if they still selling it, they were building a house in an other town at that time.
i know at least 50-100 of them but not very well. they either "prominent figures" of the town, or used to came to the casino where few of my good friends used to work. they didnt made any trouble as it was clear for them they will face retaliation by the casino owner (who closely connected to the police). however it wasnt hard to figure out what theyre up to being there every day until dawn and coming back in early-afternoon, oftenly losing amount 5-6x time the minwage on one occasion. they also oftenly bragged about crimes they committed and such... it was easy for the casino however, to bleed them out of their money but they was definitely the more intelligent ones from their kind as they moved from small-time crime committing to big-time, hence the reason they got the amount they brought there. there was several rumours circulating by policeman who also was returning guests, which of them did what in the past (like a guy sitting in jail for 5 year killing an old woman upon a robbery and just been released), but i will not go into detail, as i dont have clear information on that...
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc.
At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved.
I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land.
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
I have left my country, Bulgaria, leaving the leeches leech from themselves. However, when I came to YOUR country (the Netherlands), I realized that it is your government that is preventing me to work freely, makes me have a residence permit, etc. etc. Comeon, I am from the freaking EU, why should I go through all this as a guy from Spain, for example, doesn't have to go through such hassle only to be allowed to stay in the country and work?
I will tell you why: because there is some prejudice towards Bulgarians and Romanians even in the ever so tolerant Dutch. Because, contrary to what is believed in this topic, that Bulgarians/Romanians are racist towards their gypsy population, western European countries DEPORTED the gypsies they had and also deny free entrance/work of people from the countries from which the gypsies originate. How hypocritical is that?
We are the racist, but we allow them to work, we allow them to go to school, we give them social benefits, flats, free electricity, social integration programs and the such, while for us, who are rightful members of the EU, it is hard to even go to Holland and find a job there. Luckily for me, I finished my university education in the Netherlands and managed to easily find a job in programming, but some other people are not that lucky. AND THE SOLE REASON those restrictions apply is because of the ignorance of western governments who don't want to do anything with gypsies (yes, I said it), but fail to realize that Bulgarians/Romanians are not necessarily gypsies. The hypocrisy in this thread is overwhelming. If you deny, explain to me what is that:
Western countries are 10 times more racist than Bulgarians and Romanians who might say some harsh words toward their gypsies, might have tension with them but at least they LIVE with them, while western countries DEPORT them.
Pretty insulting.
I'm not claiming western countries are less racist (I'm not from the NL). You have to understand that NL/Finland rejected Bulgaria/Romania from the Schengen Area just because of your difficulties with corruption/crime ethnic difficulties and what not. Free travel from your countries could have a negative impact on other Schengen countries. I'm not blaming you or anyone else who is not responsible for this, its just damage control and something you have to deal with (and apparently succeeded in).
I don't see the problem in deporting anyone as long as they are illegal settlers.
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Around 800 000 young Bulgarians have emigrated to other countries since 1990. The current population of Bulgaria is around 6.5mil people. You were saying?
On September 29 2011 20:35 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:31 RageBot wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc.
At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved.
I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land.
Americans would never leave America, though. I'm positive they'd all kill eachother (if they thought it was in their/the countries best interest) before they would be packing up and leaving.
How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
Phone was stolen by gipsy taxi driver 3 years ago. Used to be bullied at school by gipsy gangs who while not attending school came about to take money from the kids actually going to school. 7 years ago i saw a grown middle aged gypsy woman taking a shit on the sidewalk in the center plaza of the city. 8 years ago a car with german number plates stopped by my house and the 3 gypsies inside wanted to sell cooking pots (very aggressively) and other products. Now i'f im gonna say they stole those products from Germany and even though thats discrimination because i dont have any proof, its still true.
In my entire life i have only met 2 hard working gypsies who appeared to want to be part of society. Thats it. And neither of them complained about not being able to work if they wanted to or having a hard time finding a job because of being a gypsy.
I also have to be quite honest. Ever since we joined the EU there are virtually no more beggars on our city streets here in north-west Romania.
On September 29 2011 20:47 tree.hugger wrote: As an American who is proud of my nation's long internal struggle against racism and intolerance, and one who is deeply skeptical of cultural explanations for people's behavior, I have the following questions.
How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
You are mixing up explaining a behavior with race and explaining behavior with culture. We aren't saying that all people that belong to the Roma ethnicity are thieves and so on, we're saying that the Roma people who practice gypsy culture are folowing bad examples and are a problem. The same can be said about the gangbanger culture, don't you hate people who commit crimes, kill people, steal and peddle drugs? Just because gangbangers are predominantly black (gangstas, not talking about yakuza etc, don't accuse me of saying only black people commit crimes) doesn't mean that all black people follow the gangbanger culture, in fact that percentage is so low it doesn't even matter and probably isn't any higher or lower that the criminal rate for white people or people of other ethnicity. I don't care what skin color you have, what shape eyes you have, if you're a cool dude I'll be friends with anyone, same goes if you steal from me, I want you to face the legal consequences, no more no less. Like plenty of people have pointed out, gypsy culture is based on living off ill-gotten gains, not educating their children and abusing them as workforce and/or welfare checks. Roma people who do honest work to live and send their kids to school aren't the problem, they are the solution, sadly, these kind of people are ostracized by the gypsy community and sometimes even face violence as retribution for their "betrayal" of their culture.
How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
Me and my brothers 2 bikes were stolen from our shed at our grans, when we asked the police to check the gypo camp up from my grans all that was left was 1 frame from one of the bikes, it had been stripped basically. Fuck all happened, the police didn't do shit.
Last month, 10 years after it happened, the gypo's were finally told to get the fuck off the land( a clearing under a road bridge, about the size of a football pitch), the mess they left behind was unreal.
Seriously most gypsies I've encountered are fucking scum. I still remember a roundabout near Edinburgh (near the Gyle), the gypsies camped on the fucking thing, they got told to move, so moved 10 meters to the side of the road in a clearing. I can't remember how long it took the police to move them, but plenty of motorists complained of rubbish blowing onto the road from the camp.
edit; Yes I realise not all travelers are like this, but the ones I've encountered are.
On September 29 2011 20:35 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:31 RageBot wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc.
At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved.
I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land.
I'm not American, however you are probably misinformed about their patriotism. I'm from Sweden, the only poor country in northern Europe.
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Around 800 000 young Bulgarians have emigrated to other countries since 1990. The current population of Bulgaria is around 6.5mil people. You were saying?
btw i forgot the funniest one. we were 14 standing in a bus station with my friend when one gypsy walkted to us, alerting us he heard other bystandards alerting the police we selling marijuana. we obv didnt even know whats happenning than 10 gypsys showed up immediately. half of them was sure we selling drugs in the station (it was crowded as fuck btw), and told they willing to testify as a witness. than the one guy told me he can convince the police to go away, but he will need the other gypsys of the crowd to testify aswell and he needs to pay money for them. he demanded 20$. we didnt had money only 2 bus tickets, so he gave me his numbers, to bring the money next day. [in the meantime other bystandards alerted the police for real about the trouble, who arrived pretty fast, checked everyones IDs, and said: good day gentleman and left =)] i had to go trought that station on a daily basis, so was pretty worried what will happen if i dont call him. an older friend adviced to call him and tell i tried to ask money from my mother but shes very ill, and had to spend a lot on medicine, but we have 10$ remained i can bring it to him... (mother culture is very strong with gypsys). so i did, and he told its ok, forget about it.
i already forget about it but few months ago when i came out from the store, 6 gypsys between the age of 20-30 standing around me. i recognised the guy, who claimed that i owe him. i told him we already talked on phone where he said forget about it. he replied: "it doesnt matter i was drunk". than asked how much money i have, i had 25$. he told me to give him 15$, so thus far were even... than they left.
its pretty funny story actually if u think about it. just so surreal.
On September 29 2011 20:35 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:31 RageBot wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc.
At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved.
I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land.
I'm not American, however you are probably misinformed about their patriotism. I'm from Sweden, the only poor country in northern Europe.
You see the term "poor" is not something that everyone can relate to in the same way. Officially 10% of Americans live below the poverty line with less than 40.000$/year. Still if you ask someone from India or other poor countries you might get a very different answer as to what "poor" is. So i'm just going to say that Sweden is not a poor country. Ok? That being said i don't consider Romania or Bulgaria "poor" countries either. Both Romania and Bulgaria had the highest growing GDP in Europe before the 2008 crisis. The average income is ~700e / family and while thats obviously not that much, you also have to realize that many products and services are much cheaper here than they are in the west.
What this means is that everyone can have a decent life as long as they want to work here as well. Still for some people the western countries are a "mirage" basically. The main problem is inherent to the way people think. Always wanting much more than they have and nothing is ever good enough; thats the kind of mentality that makes average people think they have it quite bad in the world when in reality the truth is you can live quite a happy life without owning a yacht or a 100.000e car.
When I was young I had a pretty successful band. We fell out with our drummer and took in a very talented drummer who happened to be Roma. He was from a family of musicians that was extremely well integrated for their standards, they lived in the city etc.
For two years we were good friends, we hung out, played concerts, made music, the works. We honestly embraced this guy in all kinds of ways. Then one day he told us this elaborate story how doctors discovered he has a life-threatening heart defect and that he urgently needs money for an operation because his family can't afford it. We lent him quite a lot of money, I personally contributed 150 euro (keep in mind I was a kid back then and in this country it was quite a lot of money).
Soon after, he stole a bunch of items from our practice place (my portable CD player and favorite microphone included, as well as radically important shit like guitars) and vanished. In the end, we found out he "emigrated" to the states because half of the city, including some pretty dangerous people, was after him for "borrowing" their stuff.
As far as I know, he's been living illegally in New Jersey for several years now flipping burgers and "borrowing" things. Needless to say, nothing was wrong with his heart... except for him being a backstabbing cunt.
There, my personal experience. My mother's wallet was also stolen by a gipsy woman but luckily she got caught in the act. And I've been personally pimped grade-school aged gipsy girls numerous times, right on the city streets and in broad daylight (asking me if I "needed a girlfriend").
I'm Canadian so I don't know about gypsies, but I am native so I at least can say (from my own people's experience) that forced assimilation doesn't work and moving populations into ghettos/reservations only works if you give them enough perverted incentives to stay there.
btw: no hard feelings about our land, whitey, s'all good
I`m pretty sure that everyone or at least someone in his family in eastern europe has been a direct victim of gypsy crimes. It makes no sense to list all the incidents even for the tl.net members, because this thread will go more than 200 pages.
The main problem is inherent to the way people think. Always wanting much more than they have and nothing is ever good enough; thats the kind of mentality that makes average people think they have it quite bad in the world when in reality the truth is you can live quite a happy life without owning a yacht or a 100.000e car.
that is quite true. eastern europe or not, pretty much everyone who willing live an ok life able to be. meaning dont have to worry about if there will be a roof over their head, what will they eat, will they be able to drink clean water the next week etc... everytime my mother complains why she dont get more money, or why not live like americans or swedish people i just laugh at her, as she already in the luckiest 20% of the earth population considering place like africa, india, rural china and so on...
On September 29 2011 21:29 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
On September 29 2011 21:12 decemberTV wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:35 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:31 RageBot wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc.
At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved.
I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land.
I'm not American, however you are probably misinformed about their patriotism. I'm from Sweden, the only poor country in northern Europe.
You see the term "poor" is not something that everyone can relate to in the same way. Officially 10% of Americans live below the poverty line with less than 40.000$/year. Still if you ask someone from India or other poor countries you might get a very different answer as to what "poor" is. So i'm just going to say that Sweden is not a poor country. Ok? That being said i don't consider Romania or Bulgaria "poor" countries either. Both Romania and Bulgaria had the highest growing GDP in Europe before the 2008 crisis. The average income is ~700e / family and while thats obviously not that much, you also have to realize that many products and services are much cheaper here than they are in the west.
What this means is that everyone can have a decent life as long as they want to work here as well. Still for some people the western countries are a "mirage" basically. The main problem is inherent to the way people think. Always wanting much more than they have and nothing is ever good enough; thats the kind of mentality that makes average people think they have it quite bad in the world when in reality the truth is you can live quite a happy life without owning a yacht or a 100.000e car.
You have seen fast growth, the last 30 years Sweden has been on decline in most relative comparisons in a number of different wealth and development indexes. Every year it gets worse. Norway and China soon own Sweden completely. We also have immigration issues and way too much public spending with heavy taxation.
Almost every country have an "enclave" of people in Sweden, including gypsies. Segregated as fuck and the people have completely different cultural/religious values and morals. Not a good foundation to enforce law and taxation upon.
Lots of sad stories in here.. in the end i have had a very soft experience with the gipsy people compared to the Romanians and Bulgarians! But in Portugal we all know what their are worth witch is, unfortunately for them, nothing...
They need to change their ways if they want to respected, protected and accepted in our citys and countrys.
If they don't want to work, they have to work the fields so that they can support their families with food instead of crime. If they don't want to put their kids on school they should lose all their economic support from the state because at least in Portugal school is demanded until the 9 or 12 grade. If you fail at school constantly just to be out of it or misbehave to be expelled you should also lose your benefits. Camping is not accepted unless they have a permit. Loitering and garbage dumping and overall being pigs is not acceptable also since it will lead to disease and more hate from other populations. And last but not least all roma have or be force to accept the laws of the country they are in and must be held accountable for their actions.
A thief has to go to prison.
If they stop being dirty, work or sustain themselves without crime and put their children in school they will be out of this system that prevents them to be normal and respected citizens.
It's ok to want to live like a tribe, 30 people or more living together in family but it's not ok to setup a camp wherever you feel like, trash the place, don't take care of your garbage and your personal hygiene.. especially when there are children involved.
Anecdotes won't convince anyone. It's a pretty silly thing to ask for anecdotes.
Gypsies cause trouble on a different level compared to any other ethnic minority. If you're from the US, you know that black neighborhoods ("ghettos") are or were associated with poverty, worse public services, in general poor living conditions and therefore higher crime rates.
Gypsy "neighborhoods" are landfills. They are the only group where this happens. Hundreds of illegal immigrants are dumped on the european shores daily, they get here with nothing and are forced to live in conditions that no sane person would consider decent. This is, I presume, similar to what happens with the US-Mexican border.
Gypsies are ten times worse than that. A lot of them have been here for generations; there are french, spanish and italian gypsies. Whereas other groups arrive in waves and slowly build up some dignity, often following some political event like the kosovo crisis, gypsies appear to live in shit by choice, although of course you can't blame the single individual for growing up in a stupid culture.
On September 29 2011 21:29 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
On September 29 2011 21:12 decemberTV wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:35 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:31 RageBot wrote:
On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote: I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have.
Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc.
At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved.
I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land.
I'm not American, however you are probably misinformed about their patriotism. I'm from Sweden, the only poor country in northern Europe.
You see the term "poor" is not something that everyone can relate to in the same way. Officially 10% of Americans live below the poverty line with less than 40.000$/year. Still if you ask someone from India or other poor countries you might get a very different answer as to what "poor" is. So i'm just going to say that Sweden is not a poor country. Ok? That being said i don't consider Romania or Bulgaria "poor" countries either. Both Romania and Bulgaria had the highest growing GDP in Europe before the 2008 crisis. The average income is ~700e / family and while thats obviously not that much, you also have to realize that many products and services are much cheaper here than they are in the west.
What this means is that everyone can have a decent life as long as they want to work here as well. Still for some people the western countries are a "mirage" basically. The main problem is inherent to the way people think. Always wanting much more than they have and nothing is ever good enough; thats the kind of mentality that makes average people think they have it quite bad in the world when in reality the truth is you can live quite a happy life without owning a yacht or a 100.000e car.
You have seen fast growth, the last 30 years Sweden has been on decline in most relative comparisons in a number of different wealth and development indexes. Every year it gets worse. Norway and China soon own Sweden completely. We also have immigration issues and way too much public spending with heavy taxation.
Almost every country have an "enclave" of people in Sweden, including gypsies. Segregated as fuck and the people have completely different cultural/religious values and morals. Not a good foundation to enforce law and taxation upon.
This got a bit off topic...
So basically you have the same problems as any other western country. Norway was lucky enough to find oil thats the only reason its doing at all better. Immigration without assimilation will never work; its that simple. People should have to choose between moving in a better country and holding on to their very different ways of thinking.
On September 29 2011 22:12 dementrio wrote: Anecdotes won't convince anyone. It's a pretty silly thing to ask for anecdotes.
Gypsies cause trouble on a different level compared to any other ethnic minority. If you're from the US, you know that black neighborhoods ("ghettos") are or were associated with poverty, worse public services, in general poor living conditions and therefore higher crime rates.
Gypsy "neighborhoods" are landfills. They are the only group where this happens. Hundreds of illegal immigrants are dumped on the european shores daily, they get here with nothing and are forced to live in conditions that no sane person would consider decent. This is, I presume, similar to what happens with the US-Mexican border.
Gypsies are ten times worse than that. A lot of them have been here for generations; there are french, spanish and italian gypsies. Whereas other groups arrive in waves and slowly build up some dignity, often following some political event like the kosovo crisis, gypsies appear to live in shit by choice, although of course you can't blame the single individual for growing up in a stupid culture.
This here is the very hard truth. Europe has immigrants from all over the world who within 2-3 generations become assimilated and integrated (for the most part). Gypsies have been around for hundreds of years and that process simply has not taken place. Americans in particular fail to see that its not an issue of race, but of culture. At the same time its very difficult to get a lecture in multiculturalism from an american who is even against spanish being introduced as a second language when the EU has 23 different official languages and minorities are given the posibility to study in their own native language from primary school to university. (For example, the Hungarian minority in Romania).
Since my ban time just ran off and this thread has become quite big (and apparently some people took seriously what I wrote in the first page) I would also like to give my honest opinion about this rather than just some random trolling. I have been living in the Milan zone for over 14 years (the zone where the documentary posted in this thread was taken) and witnessed every same problem bulgarians or romanians claim to have in their own countries with most roma. It's obviously an education issue coming from an ancient and primitive nomadic way of life and the fact most of them are strongly against integration makes it almost impossible to deal with it in an easy way. Of course the ones who are willing to climb the culture difference and integrate themselves are worthy of the outmost respect but I also think the european countries need to take a stronger stance on criminality and they shouldn't just avoid the gypsy problem by sending them to Romania or Bulgaria. Romanians and bulgarians didn't do anything to deserve this situation, afaik romas settled into the balcans after being driven out of India for the same reasons France is giving them 300 euros to go back to Romania. The only real solution to this is just taking away the custody of children under slavery or parental abuse and giving them to families who are willing to educate them properly and send them to school. The flaw is in our own society that permits people to exploit childrens without any major repercussion to their criminal business and in our own laws that don't allow the authorities to take measures to prevent it. Usually I just keep my opinion for myself when reading online forums because I think it's very hard to have a serious discussion in such an environment but I understand this time my post at the start of the thread was completely out of place and way too overboard and I would like to apologize to the TL staff for not taking TL seriously. The discussion in this thread is way better than the standards anyway and the documentary/content posted inside was extremely useful to understand better a situation people are just accustomed to approach with hate or resentment.
This here is the very hard truth. Europe has immigrants from all over the world who within 2-3 generations become assimilated and integrated (for the most part). Gypsies have been around for hundreds of years and that process simply has not taken place. Americans in particular fail to see that its not an issue of race, but of culture. At the same time its very difficult to get a lecture in multiculturalism from an american who is even against spanish being introduced as a second language when the EU has 23 different official languages and minorities are given the posibility to study in their own native language from primary school to university. (For example, the Hungarian minority in Romania).
It is not only a matter of integration. There are other groups that seem to pose an integration problem; examples are the chinese and some muslim groups in scandinavia, where they tend to isolate themselves and it's not uncommon to find 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants that are not fluent in their host country language. But no matter how much swedish people think this entitles them to racism, gypsies are comparatively a much, much larger social problem.
On September 29 2011 22:26 aTnClouD wrote: The only real solution to this is just taking away the custody of children under slavery or parental abuse and giving them to families who are willing to educate them properly and send them to school.
I dont think this will work. 50% of the children in the orphanages in Bulgaria are gypsies, while gypsies are around 5% of the Bulgarian population. Speaking of numbers thats are around 20000 gypsy children. Thats enourmous number for small country like BG. I guess in Romania the number is 5-6 times higher. These are kids, whose are parents are alive, but are just left without care and the state has stepped in and have taken care of them. Thats huge number of children and having in mind the poor economic condition of Bulgaria its not realistic that so many families would have the financial resources to take care of another kid. Not to mention, that the the public opinion is already so against the gypsies, that I doubt anyone would want to adopt or take care of gypsy children.
This here is the very hard truth. Europe has immigrants from all over the world who within 2-3 generations become assimilated and integrated (for the most part). Gypsies have been around for hundreds of years and that process simply has not taken place. Americans in particular fail to see that its not an issue of race, but of culture. At the same time its very difficult to get a lecture in multiculturalism from an american who is even against spanish being introduced as a second language when the EU has 23 different official languages and minorities are given the posibility to study in their own native language from primary school to university. (For example, the Hungarian minority in Romania).
It is not only a matter of integration. There are other groups that seem to pose an integration problem; examples are the chinese and some muslim groups in scandinavia, where they tend to isolate themselves and it's not uncommon to find 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants that are not fluent in their host country language. But no matter how much swedish people think this entitles them to racism, gypsies are a much, much larger social problem.
As i said, immigration without assimilation is virtually impossible. You simply cannot have islands of many many different values and then hope to have a centralized state with uniform laws and rules for everyone.
Immigrants should be ready to drop those values / ways that differ too much from the local population. For example, being muslim and following the muslim faith is perfectly fine as long as the traditional muslim treatment of women is forgotten or dropped. What you can't have is muslim men threatening Swedish women with rape unless they start wearing burkas.
In Italy there is, and there has been for quite some time, a chinese community that is almost completely insulated from the rest of society. Chinese send their kids to chinese schools, buy their groceries from chinese shops that have chinese suppliers. I wouldn't consider that a succesful example of integration, but there never was a chinese immigration problem.
So I am of the opinion that assimilation or integration is not necessary. Let the gypsies form their communities if they wish to do so. The problem is that penalties for illegal behaviour such as not sending kids to school or living in places that do not meet regulations were designed under the assumption that people in general have some sort of self-respect, and cannot deal with a whole culture that makes homelessness desirable. And passing special laws is a political clusterfuck because it would (correctly) be discrimination.
what sucks is the language, and connotation that words like "gypsy" carry. i'm pretty sure when people are talking about gypsies, they are talking about the thieving-type. unfortunately, it can easily be misconstrued as a racial epithet. Which is why this subject is so touchy... from a north american point of view. in NA we don't deal with them, but from my time in Europe, i can definitely understand the problem. what sucks is NA is too pc on some subjects, since they don't have to deal with them directly, and in the end the rest of the world kinda gets influenced.
one of my high school once told a story about how he got robbed by a gypsy, and somehow he found a fucking way to end the story by telling us how racism is bad, because he's got to be pc.
on the topic of integration, and remember i'm talking about the "criminal" gypsy (gotta say this, since i might hit Cloud-level hate), you can support other cultures, laws are constantly being changed to support the muslim population here, nobody gets exactly what they want, but everyone can tolerate it. and there are plenty of folk that you can find, that just don't speak any languages you do, but atleast they know right from wrong.
gypsies on the other hand, just don't like the basic rules of society, or society as we know it today. Like what others have said, they are basically parasites, they earn off of other peoples work. that's why deporting them is so wierd, deport them to romania? romania doesn't want them. there's no "gypsy" country because a parasite needs a host, and a snake can't eat it's own tail.
It just makes me mad, I like to assume that everybody is logical, and actually following society's rules, especially in this day and age, is probably one of the more logical things you can do. In other circumstances, they would be in jail, just like the man who steals from Wal-Mart, but nope, can't do shit, it's racism. unfortunately, this topic is far more complex than i can understand, since i'm neither a sociologist nor European.
i'm gonna just say again, I don't think gypsy's are naturally criminals, i'm posting here because i saw that Cloud thread, and it just made me realize pc we are, even i had to force myself be pc in this post. And that this problem is far greater than most would admit, not in magnitude, simply in solution. I would be interested in the day that someone, somehow, solves this socialogical issue
I've read the majority of the thread, and it's interesting to see that all the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy have the same problem as we, Hungarians do.
On October 01 2011 03:19 valaki wrote: I've read the majority of the thread, and it's interesting to see that all the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy have the same problem as we, Hungarians do.
On October 01 2011 03:19 valaki wrote: I've read the majority of the thread, and it's interesting to see that all the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy have the same problem as we, Hungarians do.
Problem being rampant bigotry?
Nope, but why do you feel yourself qualified to pass judgement on something which you're clearly not involved in? Just asking, I'm really curious.
Gypsies are a huge problem. But as time passes by it will be harder and harder to integrate them, so states have to come up with some insanely good integration plans or be prepared for even worse in the near future.
Giving the same social help to them as to everyone else, without the expectations society has for its average people just encourages them to continue the same lifestyle. The biggest problem is their general mindset and the lack of shame. So many things are prevented in society not trough laws but trough the fact that if you commit something you'll have to deal with the shame. Gypsies (most of them anyways) dont feel ashamed of things which are unfathomable to a lot of people, like lack of higeny, not having a real job for years/decades/entire life, begging, pick-pocketing, public nudity, incest and many other things.
I wish i could say it's wrong to generalize like that, but unfortunately i basically dont know any decent /hard working gypsy, i barely ever hear about them, the few ones i know about are living completly separately from their kind though.
I dont know about any town or village when gypsies and the non-gypsies are coexisting peacefully. The villages i know dont have troubles of this kind are those which are almost entirely populated by them. Strangely enough, they do uphold a relative order if there's no richer/more organized communities around to "leech" (<- i m thinkig about a more politically correct word, but i dont know one).
I'm really not a racist, i am also part of an ethnical minority, but the gypsy problem is definetely real, and it will get bigger and bigger
And to the guy who asked for personal experience, yes, i have experience of gyspies stealing or trying to steal from me or engaging in other activities which directly or indirectly are hurtful for me or those who are close to me. I actually don't think i know anyone who doesnt. I understand you canot really get how it's possible, but it is.
On October 01 2011 03:19 valaki wrote: I've read the majority of the thread, and it's interesting to see that all the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy have the same problem as we, Hungarians do.
Problem being rampant bigotry?
Nope, but why do you feel yourself qualified to pass judgement on something which you're clearly not involved in? Just asking, I'm really curious.
Frankly, because I can read. It isn't that hard if you can actually do that and go through this thread. Not that hard to spot really.
On October 01 2011 03:19 valaki wrote: I've read the majority of the thread, and it's interesting to see that all the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy have the same problem as we, Hungarians do.
Problem being rampant bigotry?
You should trust him, he read a few posts while concentrating on a few bad words, Im sure he can give objective true statements unlike us who live with them, we clearly dont know shit.
lol, it's funny because i saw his post, then saw his location.
if you're from the US, or outside Europe, you can't really understand the gypsy problem, (that includes me, i state that in my above post)
Takezou's post is a prime example of what I was talking about. North american citizen's will, a good portion of the time, simply go "That's Racist!!!" (where's that gif), because racism is one of those aspects get focused on during school.
He's assuming bigotry, simply because he doesn't know about the issue
On October 01 2011 04:52 EtohEtoh wrote: lol, it's funny because i saw his post, then saw his location.
if you're from the US, or outside Europe, you can't really understand the gypsy problem, (that includes me, i state that in my above post)
Takezou's post is a prime example of what I was talking about. North american citizen's will, a good portion of the time, simply go "That's Racist!!!" (where's that gif), because racism is one of those aspects get focused on during school.
He's assuming bigotry, simply because he doesn't know about the issue
Are you saying that looking at other examples of bigotry in the past we can't pass judgement because we were not there?
On September 29 2011 22:00 bonifaceviii wrote: I'm Canadian so I don't know about gypsies, but I am native so I at least can say (from my own people's experience) that forced assimilation doesn't work and moving populations into ghettos/reservations only works if you give them enough perverted incentives to stay there.
btw: no hard feelings about our land, whitey, s'all good
I've been reading this thread and it parallels the native's plight in Canada very closely. The thing about intergration is it doesn't really work if you let the minority retain even a small fraction of their land or culture. If you want peace in a imperial state you either have to eliminate every last remnant of the culture or the people themselves, then you can have peace(you don't hear the Beothuks asking for their land back). Otherwise people are so damn stubborn and hold onto whatever they can of the past and cause problems. This world is too PC for genocide these days though, so there is no easy answer.
On October 01 2011 04:52 EtohEtoh wrote: lol, it's funny because i saw his post, then saw his location.
if you're from the US, or outside Europe, you can't really understand the gypsy problem, (that includes me, i state that in my above post)
Takezou's post is a prime example of what I was talking about. North american citizen's will, a good portion of the time, simply go "That's Racist!!!" (where's that gif), because racism is one of those aspects get focused on during school.
He's assuming bigotry, simply because he doesn't know about the issue
Are you saying that looking at other examples of bigotry in the past we can't pass judgement because we were not there?
I love history. I like to compare things that have happened to what are happening when im bored. This is nothing like what blacks had in America.
Again, I shall repeat what everone has said here a ten times already. You cannot understand the problem if youre from America, you will go thats racist! and assume that when we say we hate just the ghetto type and that the ghetto type is literraly everyone, you will ignore us and say thats racist again. Maybe not you, but someone in the next few pages will, and then we will have the same problem we had the last 30 pages.
oh hell, i m from romania, and about 2 years ago , the mayor of my city just moved some gypsy`es in it , offc , everything that could be stolen got stolen. The problem is that i don t think they have other options...i mean who would hire a Gypsy? probably less than 2 percent of the emplyers out there, not to mention the lack of education, becouse they still remain way to atached to they re cultural beliefs that they don t need education as long as they can steal. What really bugs me is the confusion and the fact that other countryes make the mistake of calling them Romanians or Bulgarians. not Rommani, or Roms, or Gypsyes as an Ethnic group. Even the Czech official website till about a year ago didn t make a separation beetwen them saying something like "in Czech there is also a large population of Gypsyes also called Romanians". And stuff like that really annoys me
On September 28 2011 06:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote: dude you have no idea how wicked gypsies are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask bulgarians, romanians, french or italian people they will all tell you the same.
I don't have any problem with gypsies to be honest. So I guess that's a bit of a wild statement.
no its not. im originally from focsani, vrancea, in romania, and you simply dont know what you are talking about! again, those people who didnt use to live with them, should just listen to people from hungary, bulgaria, especially from romania.
- you never had to beaten up 3-4 kids only avoiding not to be pushed into a corner with more scumms waiting for you
- you never ever have seen such big trash houses and the conditions that they are living in, but they dont want to change at all
- you never have been pickpocked in the bus corner, carefully watching everything around you!
- you never find a such cleverness from roma kids, or roma in general
- and you never have seen such brutality from men, who got nothing to loose
edit: and i forgot: in romania when you see a bmw x5 or an audi s8, its 50/50 that a rich gipsy would sit in. but would they share ? no the hell ! not a bit. romania is a country where money rules, harder and deeper than in other countries. just talk with people from greece or italy or bulgaria, romania, hungary... you will find the similar opinions!
almost 40 pages, and nobody understands...
romani are NOT HABITANTS FROM ROMANIA. THEY ARE GYPSY'S. only like 10% are in the country "romania" ROMA'S !! we (i am myself romanian, not a gypsy goddamn) call ourselves români, like germans call themselves germans. i hope its clear!
On October 01 2011 04:52 EtohEtoh wrote: lol, it's funny because i saw his post, then saw his location.
if you're from the US, or outside Europe, you can't really understand the gypsy problem, (that includes me, i state that in my above post)
Takezou's post is a prime example of what I was talking about. North american citizen's will, a good portion of the time, simply go "That's Racist!!!" (where's that gif), because racism is one of those aspects get focused on during school.
He's assuming bigotry, simply because he doesn't know about the issue
And you're talking about being PC, it's the same thing as pulling the "racist"-card.
I live in Hungary. Everyone i know have negative opinion on gypsys and already suffered because of their culture. I was robbed 5 times personally. Most people became very reserved with them, generally a gypsy have to prove first he is not like most of them to get accepted and not the other way around when they would get accepted until they don't make trouble... I think it reflects how big is the problem.
Meh, You may think it's possible for a group to be "culturally" homeless, as in refusing to get out of their state of homelessness, and raising their kids as bums, AND for that group to coexist peacefully within a modern society. I don't think it's possible, I have no problem declaring myself a bigot if that is what you have to call my stance.
Homeless people have close to no chance to finding jobs, that leaves them only welfare and/or crime to sustain themselves. Nomadic culture may be noble and romantic, but choosing that way of life automatically makes yourself a parasite. Gypsy culture is immoral and criminal under every western value system.
On October 01 2011 19:11 tjosan wrote: Holy fuck you people are bigoted. "The gypsy problem"?! Try to search the web for hits on "the Jewish question" and see if you can't notice parables.
A likely scenario with jews - they may wear silly hats. They want jews dead.
A likely scenario with gypsies - they will probably rob you, given the chance. We try to integrate them to our society, help them with social support, give them homes which they destroy. We dont know what to do with them, thats why we call it a gypsie problem, we dont know what to do anymore and were fed up with the abuse.
You may notice a bit of a difference here.
Oh hey, were back to Godwins law. I propose a new one "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of not reading previous content and ignoring stated facts approaches 1."
On October 01 2011 19:11 tjosan wrote: Holy fuck you people are bigoted. "The gypsy problem"?! Try to search the web for hits on "the Jewish question" and see if you can't notice parables.
People used to hate Jews primarily because they were very rich and held the best jobs and were bosses of many people+ were bankers so you probably owed them money. Most of them were intelectuals.
People hate gypsies because they refuse to get jobs and are content to live from social services, stealing etc + are dangerous and their hygenic standards are very low. Most of them dont have education higher then 8 grades, lots of them even less. (even though it's mandatory and free in all EU states i know). Personal experience: i know 0 gypsies at university (even though there are tons of state-found spots which are completly free), the few i think have gypsy background dont consider themselves gypsy and would be very pissed if one would call them so.
Living in Romania i can't do anything but agree with any country that takes action vs gypsies but what Antonescu did in 1943 was genocide ( not as bad as what the 3rd Reich did to the jews with gas chambers and what not but they basically let most of the starve to death ) and it is NOT by any means what they are doing in Bulgaria, i got friends there that kinda tell me what the local media is telling and from what i understand they don't want to kill them they just want them to go away.Part of me hopes they actually manage to do something and maybe the states from est EU will finally take some actions against gypsies stealing part of the railroads to sell them for few $ a kg instead of getting a job and robing kids and elders in daylight... etc but the other part of me knows the UN and EU will stop the "violence against the oh so poor and discriminated gypsies".
As for all the ppl defending the gypsies and saying how "horrific" there acts are: Honestly im all against racism but when more then half of a race is unemployed and more the 3/4 of the kids did not even complete the 10th grade ( 10th is the "obligatory" level of education here and the highest you can get without risking of getting kicked out of the school for good due to poor grades ) even tho all education is free and they have special places which do not require them to have the grades other students do + monetary help for gypsy kids going into high school. And even tho the above is true... there clan leaders have expensive houses and cars... its kinda obvious how involved they are in organized and unorganized crime. And due note that they aren't anything like the black guys in USA, they are considered ppl with almost equal rights since forever, they are considered ppl with equal rights since somewhere around the 1859 ( i think ) and since 1947 they have some advantages over the others due to having "gypsy only" social help in some domains such as schooling. Not to mention a lot of them were unemployed and not going to school even before 1989 when the communist state would give a job+house to anyone who wanted it and schooling was free all the way up to final year of college. ( some of theme were living in villages where it was hard sending your kids to school but still all 4 of my grandparents were born in villages and they got to school and were able to get a job in a city ).
Now compare the above to what happened to black ppl in USA and you kinda understand why ppl hate them ( and i bet you 90% of the est europe + most of the Italian posters can back me up when i saw its not there skin color, language or culture that makes ppl hate gypsies ).
Dear god, I just cant grasp this, are some of you people seriously saying that people from 7 - 8 different countries, all of which have gypsies, are all bigoted and racist, and it could in no way have anything to do with this one particular minority ? Do you think we are living in the 1800s here and preach racial inferiority ? Is it that hard to admit there might be a problem if this many people are voicing their concerns, or is it just easier to scream RACIST.
the difference is that nobody think gypsies are naturally born thieves,
it's an issue with their culture and their society that naturally opposes the way everyone else lives.
using Geo.Rion's example, seeing a gypsy attending university, someone trying to integrate themselves, they wouldn't be considered the same as the homeless gypsy. Other students may be wary, understandably so, given they may have other run-ins with gypsys.
Again, following Geo.Rion's post, a gypsy who's integrated themselves into society would no longer be seen as a "gypsy", would no longer call themselves "gypsy". Simply because the term used to refer to a group of people. Now it refers to a subset of that group that like to take from others. I don't know if other languages have come up with another word to differentiate between "gypsy" and "criminal gypsy", but english has not yet, and this is an english board, so we must deal with that. I strongly suggest that you read every post replacing "gypsy" with "criminal", (and once again, i'm not saying all gypsies are criminals, just a particular subset that people refer to when they use the word gypsy), because that's what all the "bigots"are actually refering to. And no, I don't believe that people who don't have to deal with the brunt of the gypsy problem, are somehow more morally mature.
back to the comparison, a jew in university, or anywhere, would be seen as plagueing the land at the time,
people want gypsies to integrate to society, not seperate them from it like in the case of the jews. and it's just not happening.
i'm actually going to keep arguing the "english needs a word for criminal gypsy", because it desperately does,else we get confusion, like here
Ok, so lot of people referenced on gypsy clan leaders (or otherwise wealthy ones live in palaces) Check out these monstrosities: They give you a tour (or used to at least) for something like 100 euroes, and a newsportal, transindex.ro took the tour. i ll try to dig up the article
It basically says how the palaces are not habitated and shows some pictures and talks about all the high tech and expensive stuff in there, which are unused, and how they asked more and more money from the reporters. And here's a somewaht word-by-word translation: " When we're leaving we had to give away xy sum of money to the kids who were growing in numbers continuosly, because they were ON the car and we could not start it. As it turns out, and excellent strategic move is to give some money to one of the smaller girls, because at least four of the bigger kids will jump on her, and we can get away unnoticed meanwhile."
On October 01 2011 21:45 EtohEtoh wrote: the difference is that nobody think gypsies are naturally born thieves,
it's an issue with their culture and their society that naturally opposes the way everyone else lives.
using Geo.Rion's example, seeing a gypsy attending university, someone trying to integrate themselves, they wouldn't be considered the same as the homeless gypsy. Other students may be wary, understandably so, given they may have other run-ins with gypsys.
Again, following Geo.Rion's post, a gypsy who's integrated themselves into society would no longer be seen as a "gypsy", would no longer call themselves "gypsy". Simply because the term used to refer to a group of people. Now it refers to a subset of that group that like to take from others. I don't know if other languages have come up with another word to differentiate between "gypsy" and "criminal gypsy", but english has not yet, and this is an english board, so we must deal with that. I strongly suggest that you read every post replacing "gypsy" with "criminal", (and once again, i'm not saying all gypsies are criminals, just a particular subset that people refer to when they use the word gypsy), because that's what all the "bigots"are actually refering to. And no, I don't believe that people who don't have to deal with the brunt of the gypsy problem, are somehow more morally mature.
back to the comparison, a jew in university, or anywhere, would be seen as plagueing the land at the time,
people want gypsies to integrate to society, not seperate them from it like in the case of the jews. and it's just not happening.
i'm actually going to keep arguing the "english needs a word for criminal gypsy", because it desperately does,else we get confusion, like here
This is purely a pc issue. You could just say "criminal" and skip the gypsy part altogether, nobody is going to argue that fighting crime is racism.
But this would fail to acknowledge the problem, of communities that revolve around petty crime you can't fight, because you can't fine people who have no papers, no identity and no money, you can't arrest entire villages, you can't even "help" them with welfare homes because it goes against their retarded worldview.
But of course if you say "gypsy" people jump because they're either too naive to realize that certain belief systems or cultures are incompatible with our civilization, or they're in mala fide. I personally say gypsy out of respect for those Roma people who did hfind enough conscience to separate themselves.
On October 01 2011 19:11 tjosan wrote: Holy fuck you people are bigoted. "The gypsy problem"?! Try to search the web for hits on "the Jewish question" and see if you can't notice parables.
Actually, the Jewish problem was the direct opposite of what the Gypsy problem is. The european Jews (pre-holocaust) were known to be able to integrate too well into society, to give so much that they gain a lot more power, the higher you would've looked at the "chain of command" in germany, the higher precentage of jews you would've seen. Pepole were afraid that the jews will take over the world from the top down (which is somewhat of a sign of respect to jewish capabilities or whatever), while the gypsy's are collapsing society from the bottom up, by leeching society's money and hurting the common folk.
On October 01 2011 21:45 EtohEtoh wrote: the difference is that nobody think gypsies are naturally born thieves,
it's an issue with their culture and their society that naturally opposes the way everyone else lives.
using Geo.Rion's example, seeing a gypsy attending university, someone trying to integrate themselves, they wouldn't be considered the same as the homeless gypsy. Other students may be wary, understandably so, given they may have other run-ins with gypsys.
Again, following Geo.Rion's post, a gypsy who's integrated themselves into society would no longer be seen as a "gypsy", would no longer call themselves "gypsy". Simply because the term used to refer to a group of people. Now it refers to a subset of that group that like to take from others. I don't know if other languages have come up with another word to differentiate between "gypsy" and "criminal gypsy", but english has not yet, and this is an english board, so we must deal with that. I strongly suggest that you read every post replacing "gypsy" with "criminal", (and once again, i'm not saying all gypsies are criminals, just a particular subset that people refer to when they use the word gypsy), because that's what all the "bigots"are actually refering to. And no, I don't believe that people who don't have to deal with the brunt of the gypsy problem, are somehow more morally mature.
back to the comparison, a jew in university, or anywhere, would be seen as plagueing the land at the time,
people want gypsies to integrate to society, not seperate them from it like in the case of the jews. and it's just not happening.
i'm actually going to keep arguing the "english needs a word for criminal gypsy", because it desperately does,else we get confusion, like here
This is purely a pc issue. You could just say "criminal" and skip the gypsy part altogether, nobody is going to argue that fighting crime is racism.
But this would fail to acknowledge the problem, of communities that revolve around petty crime you can't fight, because you can't fine people who have no papers, no identity and no money, you can't arrest entire villages, you can't even "help" them with welfare homes because it goes against their retarded worldview.
But of course if you say "gypsy" people jump because they're either too naive to realize that certain belief systems or cultures are incompatible with our civilization, or they're in mala fide. I personally say gypsy out of respect for those Roma people who did hfind enough conscience to separate themselves.
of course, i'm only talking about the lesser pc issue. As i've said before, I don't know enough about the situation to even make an opinion on how to deal with the gypsies.
i'm talking about specifically about those people who jump at "gypsy", because there are some, in this thread. and with that big white square warning at the top of this thread, i'm afraid that someone who posts something perfectly reasonable gets banned or reported
dayum, i wrote a huge ass post trying to explain some basic stuff about gypsies but then i remembered that ignorant people often choose to remain ignorant even in the face of first hand facts told by different people who miraculously are not involved in a conspiracy...
oh well, people from eastern europe are disgusting racist biggots i suppose, all of em who are throwing around blanket statements about the gypsies.
all of em
mmmmm,suddenly a delicious irony taste in my mouth. must be iron
just a fun remark to all the people who excuse the gypsy deportations from france and italy on the basis they entered the country illegally:
do you peeps think gypsies received an invitation to come to these parts of europe in the first place?
god forbid we in turn deport the gypsies back to India where they originally were banished from, T-1 hour until glorious Murrika bombs our Nazi asses with UN and NATO approval. Oh, and God's approval also, he is always on freedom's side.
god forbid we in turn deport the gypsies back to India where they originally were banished from, T-1 hour until glorious Murrika bombs our Nazi asses with UN and NATO approval. Oh, and God's approval also, he is always on freedom's side.
Are you suggesting Romania and Bulgaria should team up and ask the UN and NATO to help bomb France for deporting them back to us? We'd do it without their help, but the gypsies stole all our bombs (all four of them) :C
On October 01 2011 19:11 tjosan wrote: Holy fuck you people are bigoted. "The gypsy problem"?! Try to search the web for hits on "the Jewish question" and see if you can't notice parables.
Actually, the Jewish problem was the direct opposite of what the Gypsy problem is. The european Jews (pre-holocaust) were known to be able to integrate too well into society, to give so much that they gain a lot more power, the higher you would've looked at the "chain of command" in germany, the higher precentage of jews you would've seen. Pepole were afraid that the jews will take over the world from the top down (which is somewhat of a sign of respect to jewish capabilities or whatever), while the gypsy's are collapsing society from the bottom up, by leeching society's money and hurting the common folk.
Probably not integrated well enough. When people are living with countrymen of the same heritage, nationality, language, culture, and yet many live in their own neighborhoods as if they are significantly different, that's a hell of a lot different than say recent Mexican immigrants to the US living together because stuff and people and culture in the US are 100x different than in Mexico.
Also, it wasn't Jews collectively, but a few who since the rise of modern banking had gained very powerful positions when it was still considered taboo among Christians to get into that sort of business. Most Jews were poor/middle-class folks, fyi. Unfortunately, in the German (also in the Soviet one, which would play a big role at the end of WW2) "chain of command" as you say, there were a prominent number of Jews in big positions in banking and other sectors which had been building up over the preceding few sectors, and on top of this, those guys were really instrumental in fucking up Germany following WW1 at the domestic level. Why it is unfortunate is those dumbfuck goons really screwed things up the image of Jews and bolstered Judeophobic propaganda, who of course would become subject to deportations and death and other sufferings during WW2.
To say the least though, if Jews were well-integrated, as in there weren't "Jewish neighborhoods" where at least a large percentage of Jews resided, and if you saw a fellow countryman, you couldn't tell their religion/denomination, and the Christian religion didn't matter to Jews and vice versa (although Christian doctrine and writings are rather forgiving/amiable; I can't say the same about what's written in the Talmud unfortunately for the other way around), I believe the persecution would have been much less significant.
I can't read the whole conversation, but want to share my opinion, because I'm a bulgarian.
It's absolutely wrong and fake to compare the situation in Bulgaria with the deportation of jews and so on. The hypocrats from the western EU countries are deporting people, not us. The gypsy minorithy in our country is used by the politicians as a paid vote and is very well protected by the laws. Most of the bulgarians are sick of the fake political system and don't vote, thats why we are not valuable for the political class. This is happening for 20 years, the whole country is protecting this ethnical minority and giving it extra rights, like if they are the master race and we are living under slavery. We don't live in democracy, but under a dictatorship of the gypsy proletariat.
Before you start talking about human rights, think about yourself if this is normal and why the state let these happen:
- in the bulgarian villages there is a huge wave of terror against bulgarians. These are not social, but ethically motivated crimes - raping and killing old bulgarian villagers, stealing their belongings and money. They are getting killed for like 3 euros and the police is doing nothing to solve the problem
- most of the gypsies live from welfare and they make children, so they can get more money from the state. This is like their family business now. Most of them become parents in the age of 11 or 12, which I call and the laws call a pedophille crime, but the state call it "cultural habits", only because of their ethnical roots. If a bulgarian makes sex with 11 year old girl its a crime, if a gypsy make it - it's a tradition. Some of them also trade their daughters for money, this is also another cultural tradition.
- they live by their own laws, they have their own court called "Meshare", which is independent from the bulgarian state.
- they build their houses on public land illegally
- most of them commit crimes of all kinds - stealing all kind of things, pickpocketing, stealing colour metals and destroying the electrical and train infrastructure.
- most of them don't pay taxes, elecricity or water. But they use it and we pay for it
- they go out armed with guns and all kinds of weapons, they say "Death to all bulgarians, we declare war!" and the police dosent arrest them.
- We even don't have the right to protect our property. For example, there are several cases, when bulgarians are going to jail and getting sued by the state, because they are trying to protect their property and shoot the robbers, who are gypsies. If you shoot someone when he steals from you, you are the criminals.
- They have no obligations, just rights
So you should know that we are sick of this. We don't hate the gypsies, but we hate the gypsy crimes and the racist state, which discriminates us in our own home. It's a genocide agains all the normal bulgarian citizens who are part of our society - bulgarians, turkish people (who don't cause problems), armenian people, jews and so on. This is not right and should end now!
I think a lot of the break in understanding found in this thread can be tied to Americans thinking Europeans aren't as racist as our country. I know polish people that swear against Armenians and Russians in general, Germans hate the Turkish and so on...
Racism is a world wide phenomenon, it is something that is hard wired to any culture or country. The parable your looking for is not blacks in the USA, but rather native Americans. A similar integration issue, nomadic people and world knows how we dealt with that "issue."
What is monstrous is people are seemingly convincing themselves that is how it must be done. Who agrees with the way the US handled natives? Cultural/real genocide was our answer to a congruent problem, but i do not believe that is the best option!
There is a strong disconnect here, but in instances of racism in the united states i do not see people screaming "you don't know, your not from here." That is a cheap answer and most are advocating a cheap solution. Angst ensues.
On October 02 2011 15:54 Bulgarian wrote: I can't read the whole conversation, but want to share my opinion, because I'm a bulgarian.
It's absolutely wrong and fake to compare the situation in Bulgaria with the deportation of jews and so on. The hypocrats from the western EU countries are deporting people, not us. The gypsy minorithy in our country is used by the politicians as a paid vote and is very well protected by the laws. Most of the bulgarians are sick of the fake political system and don't vote, thats why we are not valuable for the political class. This is happening for 20 years, the whole country is protecting this ethnical minority and giving it extra rights, like if they are the master race and we are living under slavery. We don't live in democracy, but under a dictatorship of the gypsy proletariat.
Before you start talking about human rights, think about yourself if this is normal and why the state let these happen:
- in the bulgarian villages there is a huge wave of terror against bulgarians. These are not social, but ethically motivated crimes - raping and killing old bulgarian villagers, stealing their belongings and money. They are getting killed for like 3 euros and the police is doing nothing to solve the problem
- most of the gypsies live from welfare and they make children, so they can get more money from the state. This is like their family business now. Most of them become parents in the age of 11 or 12, which I call and the laws call a pedophille crime, but the state call it "cultural habits", only because of their ethnical roots. If a bulgarian makes sex with 11 year old girl its a crime, if a gypsy make it - it's a tradition. Some of them also trade their daughters for money, this is also another cultural tradition.
- they live by their own laws, they have their own court called "Meshare", which is independent from the bulgarian state.
- they build their houses on public land illegally
- most of them commit crimes of all kinds - stealing all kind of things, pickpocketing, stealing colour metals and destroying the electrical and train infrastructure.
- most of them don't pay taxes, elecricity or water. But they use it and we pay for it
- they go out armed with guns and all kinds of weapons, they say "Death to all bulgarians, we declare war!" and the police dosent arrest them.
- We even don't have the right to protect our property. For example, there are several cases, when bulgarians are going to jail and getting sued by the state, because they are trying to protect their property and shoot the robbers, who are gypsies. If you shoot someone when he steals from you, you are the criminals.
- They have no obligations, just rights
So you should know that we are sick of this. We don't hate the gypsies, but we hate the gypsy crimes and the racist state, which discriminates us in our own home. It's a genocide agains all the normal bulgarian citizens who are part of our society - bulgarians, turkish people (who don't cause problems), armenian people, jews and so on. This is not right and should end now!
O.o This seems kinda extreme, never heard of it being THIS bad, not saying is not true but never heard that the gypsy problem in Bulgaria goes to such an extreme, if its like that then we got it really well here compared to you.
On October 02 2011 16:55 Rebel_lion wrote: I think a lot of the break in understanding found in this thread can be tied to Americans thinking Europeans aren't as racist as our country. I know polish people that swear against Armenians and Russians in general, Germans hate the Turkish and so on...
Racism is a world wide phenomenon, it is something that is hard wired to any culture or country. The parable your looking for is not blacks in the USA, but rather native Americans. A similar integration issue, nomadic people and world knows how we dealt with that "issue."
What is monstrous is people are seemingly convincing themselves that is how it must be done. Who agrees with the way the US handled natives? Cultural/real genocide was our answer to a congruent problem, but i do not believe that is the best option!
There is a strong disconnect here, but in instances of racism in the united states i do not see people screaming "you don't know, your not from here." That is a cheap answer and most are advocating a cheap solution. Angst ensues.
This kind of reps is what pisses me of, you see my friend, nor you nor most of the ppl from US understand this since you KILLED 90% of the native Americans hundreds of years ago and the US police is still treating black ppl as "higher risk to be a criminal" in many states. I would be totally oky with all the guys from USA saying "is wrong to discriminate against the gypsies communities" IF they actually did the same in there country centuries ago when the slaughtered the Indians and even 60 years ago when black ppl were still considered and inferior race. And all tho USA discriminated for centuries and not only discriminated but also took measures against other races while the countries from east EU always had equal or almost equal right between natives and gypsies... guess what ? USA GDP per capita is 5 times higher then the one of countries from east EU... looking at those numbers is hard to say that 2 centuries of slavery and 2 centuries of racism had SUCH a negative effect on the country.
Honestly before making a post about how racist the guys from Bulgaria are just think for a moment: "Would i agree if all those guys would come and make camp near my city... begin robing ppl and begging on the streets". Up until few years ago France and even Italy were really big on the whole " Racism against gypsies is bad"... gypsies came in there countries, they are quite quiet now.
And do note that i am writing all of the above while i am sitting in a comfy chair with my food and bed assured for the next few year due to the fact that i had the luck to be born in a family with an above the avg income. Now think of a guy that has only 1/5 of what i do and that is barely able to feed his children getting robed in the middle of the street or getting his house broken into... not only that he can hire a lawyer ... he doesn't have the money to buy food :/ Now think that most of those crimes are committed by gypsies and the state give them social help on top of that ( had 3 cases in my family where there hoses got broke into and all 3 times they were gypsy that did it, and consider that the hoses were in the civilized areas of the cities... ). You are kinda hearthless if you say those ppl are doing the wrong thing rioting .
It is bad and I can prove every word I write here. I just want everyone to know that we live in а pseudo-democratic country which discriminates the normal people and tolerates the criminals, rapists and all kind of social parasites.
Here - watch this documentary video about Varna's gypsy ghetto called "Maksuda" -
It's in bulgarian, but just watch it. You will see views from the gypsy ghetto. It is situated in the centre of the city and they cant remove it, although its completely illegal.
On October 01 2011 21:32 besiger wrote: Dear god, I just cant grasp this, are some of you people seriously saying that people from 7 - 8 different countries, all of which have gypsies, are all bigoted and racist, and it could in no way have anything to do with this one particular minority ? Do you think we are living in the 1800s here and preach racial inferiority ? Is it that hard to admit there might be a problem if this many people are voicing their concerns, or is it just easier to scream RACIST.
Yes all bigoted and racist. When i travel to CZ and i travel alot to CZ the blatend racism is just overwelming. Allso in HU you got people wearing (slighty modified) nazi uniforms that get 14% of the votes in the recent election. If you dont call those guys nacist nazi pigs you are just wrong dude.
And dont tell the rest of the world 'if you dont live in a country with them you dont know what you are talking about". Its wrong, every country has a population living in lower social standards then the rest. Where I live there is a huge increase in criminal behavior due to new people coming from Eastern Europe. This has nothing to do with were they are from it has to do with the social standing.
I'm a Ukrainian and I live in a gypsy district. They are good people. Quiet, educated, modest. I never had any conflict with them. They have good houses and expensive cars and their children go to good schools.
And dont tell the rest of the world 'if you dont live in a country with them you dont know what you are talking about". Its wrong, every country has a population living in lower social standards then the rest. Where I live there is a huge increase in criminal behavior due to new people coming from Eastern Europe. This has nothing to do with were they are from it has to do with the social standing.
Low social standing=more criminals.
Since you obviously know what you are talking about, can you something: Explain to me from a logical POV how did the gypsies end up having a lower social standing considering that for 200 years they had the same rights ass the rest of the ppl, they got "free" homes and jobs like everyone did during the communist period and they have a lot of social advantages such as special laws and special school spots ? Im not saying you are wrong but i do not understand from where you get the idea that they got "driven" into having a lower social standings.
I can tell you about our gypsies. The communist state build them homes and mixed them with the other citizens so they can't segregate. They destroyed their homes, sold them and created ghettos again! This happened in the early 90's.
Last year, in the city of Yambol, the city governer decided to destroy on the the blocks populated by the gypsies. It was almost completely ruined and dangerous for them. So they decided to start destroying the block by themselves so they can get the iron and sell it. They almost killed one little gypsy because a porch collapsed and hit her. See the video:
On October 02 2011 17:36 Taosu wrote: I'm a Ukrainian and I live in a gypsy district. They are good people. Quiet, educated, modest. I never had any conflict with them. They have good houses and expensive cars and their children go to good schools.
They are rich people because they trade heroin.
haha wtf
I honestly didnt know how to react to this post so i just literally loled.
Like that part about the armed gypsies - well that happens only during protest and tbh they were provoced because the protesters where shouting "gypsies to soap" (and other really offensive stuff) but the police didn't stop any of the both meetings by force.
That's misleding. Last year in Ihtiman there was a gypsy who said infront of the cameras "All bulgarians deserve to die!". In the last years there are several cases when gypsies destry the bulgarian national flag. In one of them a policeman was sued by the state because he protected the flag. This year 3 gypsies were arestted in Sofia because they hanged a dog and used the bulgarian flag as a rope!
The rapes and murders part - that happens from time to time but the way he wrote it suggests its a common thing, but it isn't (still happens way too often for the time we are living)
This happenes almost every single day, but the pc media hide it. They do brutal things, like 3 gypsies killed their teacher in the village of Litakovo. The leader killed her, raped her anal and vaginal and cut her body in peaces with a knife. He took 6 leva (like 3 eu) or smth like this and went to his friends bday like nothing happened. He was sentenced for 19 years for this brutal murder (not even a life sentence!). The two other gypsies who participated in this brutal murder were not found guilty, but just witnesses(wtf?!).
I can give you so many examples mate. This happens every single day.
Also, do you remember the gypsy riots in Sofia in Krasna polyana in 2007. There were no bulgarians shouting anything, just rumours that someone was attacking them.
They were all armed, attacked bulgarians and the bulgarian police, killed a proffesor form the Sofia university and noone was arrested...
The solution is one law for us all. All of the citizens should have one and the same obligations. And if someone commits crime, he/she must be punished by the state and not get away with it only because they are of a certain race/ethnic group. We want nothing more.
Wow, just wow... I wonder what the average age/average education level most of the people posting here have.
You are even worse about "gypsies" than my fellow fascist swedes, who blame EVERYTHING on the muslims. "they sell their daughters, steal, murder, rape, give birth to 10 babies, doesn't go to school" are you mentally ill? Stop blaming shit on people and take responsibility for your own life. In other words grow the f*** up!
You can't call racist things which are true. I don't blame only the gypsies, but the state who let them do such things and threats them as masters, because they need and buy their votes during elections.
On October 02 2011 18:15 Bulgarian wrote: The solution is one law for us all. All of the citizens should have one and the same obligations. And if someone commits crime, he/she must be punished by the state and not get away with it only because they are of a certain race/ethnic group. We want nothing more.
Was the situation better during the communist regime?
On October 02 2011 17:28 Bulgarian wrote: It is bad and I can prove every word I write here. I just want everyone to know that we live in а pseudo-democratic country which discriminates the normal people and tolerates the criminals, rapists and all kind of social parasites.
It's in bulgarian, but just watch it. You will see views from the gypsy ghetto. It is situated in the centre of the city and they cant remove it, although its completely illegal.
Does anyone know the song name at around 2 minutes?
Also if all the laws in bulgaria that you guys talk about which protects the gypsies from getting punished for their crimes are true then that's horrible, I know some people from Bulgaria / Romania because of gaming and it seems like they dislike them very much aswell because they can do whatever they want but no one can do anything about it because they are protected.
On October 02 2011 19:23 Jokithedruid wrote: Wow, just wow... I wonder what the average age/average education level most of the people posting here have.
You are even worse about "gypsies" than my fellow fascist swedes, who blame EVERYTHING on the muslims. "they sell their daughters, steal, murder, rape, give birth to 10 babies, doesn't go to school" are you mentally ill? Stop blaming shit on people and take responsibility for your own life. In other words grow the f*** up!
A classic liberal "I look down on everyone statement". Why do you care so much about other peoples opinions? If you disagree so strongly with them, just ignore them. Dont call them stupid an look down on them as it will make you look like a tit.
On October 02 2011 19:23 Jokithedruid wrote: Wow, just wow... I wonder what the average age/average education level most of the people posting here have.
You are even worse about "gypsies" than my fellow fascist swedes, who blame EVERYTHING on the muslims. "they sell their daughters, steal, murder, rape, give birth to 10 babies, doesn't go to school" are you mentally ill? Stop blaming shit on people and take responsibility for your own life. In other words grow the f*** up!
or maybe learn to face facts. it's easy to take the moral highground i know, but atleast study what you're talking about first. what are u btw? max 16yr i bet.
Tbh I think it's better to grow up in an idillic world where they teach you love and peace rather than being born to reactionary parents So don't throw hate on kids that are shocked to learn social problems exist.
On October 02 2011 18:15 Bulgarian wrote: The solution is one law for us all. All of the citizens should have one and the same obligations. And if someone commits crime, he/she must be punished by the state and not get away with it only because they are of a certain race/ethnic group. We want nothing more.
Was the situation better during the communist regime?
Somehow it was, but these problems are born back then (in my opinion). It's because the communist settled down this ethic group by force. They were forced to drop their nomad way of life and become citizens. Also they started to use the healthcare, so their population increased from 20-30k in the 1930s, to I don't know maybe 200-300 k in the end of the communist regime. But it was a total state, a totalitaric state, and they were forced to work for it, which was not a bad thing, because it gave them jobs. But as I said, they tried to make them a part of the socialistic nation, by giving them houses and desegregating them, but the whole social experiment failed.
On October 02 2011 20:13 Bulgarian wrote: Somehow it was, but these problems are born back then (in my opinion). It's because the communist settled down this ethic group by force. They were forced to drop their nomad way of life and become citizens. Also they started to use the healthcare, so their population increased from 20-30k in the 1930s, to I don't know maybe 200-300 k in the end of the communist regime. But it was a total state, a totalitaric state, and they were forced to work for it, which was not a bad thing, because it gave them jobs. But as I said, they tried to make them a part of the socialistic nation, by giving them houses and desegregating them, but the whole social experiment failed.
The situation is pretty much the same here. I don't think the "social experiment" was BOUND to fail, rather it was INTERRUPTED in progress. If the rule of equal rights and duties lasted longer who knows maybe their nation would experience some fundamental changes.
Yeah, I suppose. But noone will ever know. Sorry if I'm too emotional in my writings, but it's very depressing when you see and live with the injustice. That's why thousands of young people were on the streets last week.
Also if all the laws in bulgaria that you guys talk about which protects the gypsies from getting punished for their crimes are true then that's horrible, I know some people from Bulgaria / Romania because of gaming and it seems like they dislike them very much aswell because they can do whatever they want but no one can do anything about it because they are protected.
As far as i know they are not protected by law in my country ( Romania ) more then any other criminal, its just that the law system here is so flawed that many criminals go without being arrested or even caught for crimes that are less then killing someone/stealing a large sum of money ( large around the lines of 20k $ + id say... which is kinda high over here... enough money for a family of 4 to live of for a few years even ) and the gypsies are usually the ones committing that kinda of "small" crimes such as stealing from a store/beating someone and/or taking his wallet...etc So (at least here ) is not the law is the fact that we have a bad justice system which has EU style punishments and therefor most of the kids stealing can't even be jailed for more then few months and most of the adults for more then 1-2 years... which is not enough to convince them not to steal again considering how rarely it happens for them to be caught.
The most common complaint from gypsy side in my country is "there are nowhere to work", "we steal because there are no jobs". Which is partially true, because it's hard to find a decent job, but there are a few things to note: - A good portion of grown up gypsies are analphabets, or haven't completed elementary school yet (we are in 2011, Middle-Eastern Europe). How do you suppose to give them any kind of work like this? You could say "they should work on the fields and do agricultural jobs" - Here's the next thing, they refuse to take jobs with low salary, because they get more from being on welfare (this is true, sadly). - A whole generation after the socialism (after 1989) grew up with absolutely NO work ethic, NO work experience and NO willingness to work (why would they, if they can live off from welfare?).
In this situation, you can't possibly give them an offer that they'll take without being positively discriminative to us, hungarians. So you either have to butcher the welfare system, and force them to take low (still above minimum wage) salary jobs, or..I don't know. I don't see any other solution to this. You may think, "changes have to start somewhere, so why not start in the lowest levels, namely kindergarten and elementary school? Well, this is a good point, and this is exactly what we are trying to do, but with relative mild success. Why? Because you can't possibly "transform" the behavior of a child who comes from a family where they don't even use toilets or wash hands after using the toilet (this is true again, sadly). Needless to say, if the whole class consists of gypsies, you have absolutely no hope to change them. So, today the majority of the population of eastern hungarian villages are gpysy. The hungarians are fleeing to the larger cities, so there are more and more "ghost" villages are being created, where almost all the population are gypsy, with more than 90% of them having absolutely no job and living off solely from the welfare system. This is the sad truth in this country.
Many Gypsies dont have regular jobs, are involved in crime etc. We find them to be somewhat repulsive because of their life style. But the reality is, that the actual damage they do is relatively limited. That is because they are mainly involved in small crimes. The common mafia organisations, like Russian, Albanian, Italian, Serbian etc mafias do much, much more damage. Its not even comparible. Yet we dont see riots and attacks against the mafia and other criminal organisations like rocker gangs etc. Why is that? Well for one they look more pleasant. But the main reason is, that people know that these criminals are actually dangerous in contrast to gypsies for example. So the problem of the gypsies is, that they are actually not that dangerous and well armed like common criminal gangs. If they were, they would no be attacked.
Lets face it, the whole gypsie hate / fear is more an emotional than a rational thing. Hack, I bet Bernie Madoff alone stole more money than all gypsies combined.
On October 02 2011 19:23 Jokithedruid wrote: Wow, just wow... I wonder what the average age/average education level most of the people posting here have.
You are even worse about "gypsies" than my fellow fascist swedes, who blame EVERYTHING on the muslims. "they sell their daughters, steal, murder, rape, give birth to 10 babies, doesn't go to school" are you mentally ill? Stop blaming shit on people and take responsibility for your own life. In other words grow the f*** up!
Many Gypsies dont have regular jobs, are involved in crime etc. We find them to be somewhat repulsive because of their life style. But the reality is, that the actual damage they do is relatively limited. That is because they are mainly involved in small crimes. The common mafia organisations, like Russian, Albanian, Italian, Serbian etc mafias do much, much more damage. Its not even comparible. Yet we dont see riots and attacks against the mafia and other criminal organisations like rocker gangs etc. Why is that? Well for one they look more pleasant. But the main reason is, that people know that these criminals are actually dangerous in contrast to gypsies for example. So the problem of the gypsies is, that they are actually not that dangerous and well armed like common criminal gangs. If they were, they would no be attacked.
Lets face it, the whole gypsie hate / fear is more an emotional than a rational thing. Hack, I bet Bernie Madoff alone stole more money than all gypsies combined.
No, you are wrong. Criminal gangs don't threaten ordinary people's lives, but "small crimes" do. Small crimes like robbing your house, killing your grandparents for 5 euro, stealing the production from your vegetable garden, stealing colour metals and leaving you without electricity and so on. It's a completely rational problem.
I used to have a villa. Now I have ruins, because they stole everything. The police just says "We can't do nothing" and I and thousands like me are sick of this situation.
I just glanced thorugh the thread and I didn't read all of the posts, which would be too much, but here is two things I know of.
In Serbia or ex Yugoslavia in general (My father is from Croatia and my mother from Serbia), there was the Unversiade a year or two ago. near the venue where all this should have happened, there was a gypsy camp, where the people lived in iron shacks. The city ( I think it was Belgrade) wanted to move the people like 1km away, because they needed the space and they didn't want people coming for this sport event see the messiness that gypsies sometimes are. They gypsies agreed to get moved, because they were promised home for every family. The city basically build several NEW aparment complexes 1km away, with elecricity; which they didn't have, running water and everything for free.
When everything was done and they could've moved in, the gypsies basically realised "Hey they did this much for us, so why don't we get more?", and yes this may sound somewhat racist, but this is what the gypsies actually said to the government at that point. Only 5% moved in, because they thought this was generous enough and the rest just started protesting that they wanted more and that they had have a "better?" live in their iron shacks than in the newly build aparments. Sadly I have no idea how the story ended.
The second one actually happens in Germany right now. Since Bulgaria and Romania are in the EU citizens from those countries can move freely in the EU and work here. There is two problems arising right now in Germany. If you live in germany and you don't have a job, the state is obligated to give you a place to live and a little money to live from. No one cares that gypsies use this right aswell as every other man or women living in here, but the problem with the gypsies is that they basically destroy those apartments. In the beginning there is a family of four people in one of those aparments, but somehow they get more and more until the point where 15-20 people live in a 3 room apartment and ofcourse that is too much. Now ofcourse the landlord can throw them out if something like this happens, which he did, but ofcourse they got all mad and were saying that it wasn't their fault and it was some other gypsy family and so on. Now "one!" of those families (app. 40 people...) lives in a park, which they don't even mind, but it is in the middle of Berlin iirc and ofcourse that is bothersome to other people.
The second story is that they started camping at gas stations and roadhouses, which they steal from and yes the police can kick them out of the gas stations and roadhouses, but not off of the parking lots, because they're not private property. One bankwire had to pay for security to help them out, because the police couldn't do a thing. The gypsies got pretty pissed when they saw that and they started shitting on the floor in front of his gast station.
Those are just some examples that I know of and this is by no means a generalization of gypsies, but this is jsut how it is in Europe and espacially in Eastern Europe. Governments always try to help them, obviously also because of the past, but to say that people are racist and to compare that to the "jewish problem" and the "turk problem" that a fellow swedish poster mentioned is just plain wrong.
On October 02 2011 19:23 Jokithedruid wrote: Wow, just wow... I wonder what the average age/average education level most of the people posting here have.
You are even worse about "gypsies" than my fellow fascist swedes, who blame EVERYTHING on the muslims. "they sell their daughters, steal, murder, rape, give birth to 10 babies, doesn't go to school" are you mentally ill? Stop blaming shit on people and take responsibility for your own life. In other words grow the f*** up!
And just for your information. Berlin is the second biggest Turkish city on earth population-wise.
Italy has a another problem of unpunishable crime that is centered around organized crime and mafia. Something similar to this happens in the US with anti-terrorism procedures.
They are completely unrelated to the gypsy ethnic clash, but what happened is that the state found itself with laws and regulations unable to deal with a specific threat and passed special, controversial laws under the motto "the end justifies the means".
One of the most evident problems here is that gypsies illegally concentrate in bidonvilles causing all sorts of trouble in the surrounding area. What they do is illegal; in theory we'd have no need of new "racist" measures to have them punished. But in practice laws regarding housing can't deal with this, and trying to approach the problem this way is comical.
So what to do? the only solution is having "racist" laws, which would allow penalties completely out of proportion with the crime, simply because there's this one group that manages to bring this relatively minor offence to a level where it makes living near them dangerous.
On October 02 2011 20:44 Redox wrote: The common mafia organisations, like Russian, Albanian, Italian, Serbian etc mafias do much, much more damage. Its not even comparible. ... Lets face it, the whole gypsie hate / fear is more an emotional than a rational thing. Hack, I bet Bernie Madoff alone stole more money than all gypsies combined.
Spend an hour at a major railway station in Ukraine or Russia. You'll get pickpocketed twice by gypsies, zero by mafia, zero by Bernie Madoff.
On October 01 2011 21:32 besiger wrote: Dear god, I just cant grasp this, are some of you people seriously saying that people from 7 - 8 different countries, all of which have gypsies, are all bigoted and racist, and it could in no way have anything to do with this one particular minority ? Do you think we are living in the 1800s here and preach racial inferiority ? Is it that hard to admit there might be a problem if this many people are voicing their concerns, or is it just easier to scream RACIST.
Yes all bigoted and racist. When i travel to CZ and i travel alot to CZ the blatend racism is just overwelming. Allso in HU you got people wearing (slighty modified) nazi uniforms that get 14% of the votes in the recent election. If you dont call those guys nacist nazi pigs you are just wrong dude.
And dont tell the rest of the world 'if you dont live in a country with them you dont know what you are talking about". Its wrong, every country has a population living in lower social standards then the rest. Where I live there is a huge increase in criminal behavior due to new people coming from Eastern Europe. This has nothing to do with were they are from it has to do with the social standing.
Low social standing=more criminals.
Don't you think the problem is pretty big, when just the fact a political party openly talking about the problems was enough for 14% of the people to give their vote to them despite they ridicolously stupid and idiotic? If you know their program, you know what i'm talking about...
The sad reaily is, the two big partys are shown already what theyre capable of in the last 20 years. These 2 partys have no other competition btw. Most 40+ year old people think the condition of the state have gotten worse not by a small margin.
They can be thankful for the popularity because 1. They did'nt took their turn yet, while the big 2 reigning party already showed theyre incompetent. 2, Most people think Jobbik wouldnt solve shit, except the gypsy issue. But also think, other political partys wouldnt do anything good either plus ignoring the issue as a whole...
As far as political voting goes in Hungary, people don't vote to the party they think would be the "best", they vote for a party which they think will be the "less worse"... When you living conditions seemingly getting worse by every 5 year and see no way out from the catch22, you go with what remained as you not have too much to lose anymore...
Summary of todays news: Yesterday a family stopped a gypsy from breaking in the house of their neighbors. The gypsy escaped, because they didn't want to hit him and a group of around 30 to 40 gypsies came to the house and assaulted the family, some of them screaming "kill them". One of the family members had a broken jaw and had an emergency surgery yesterday. Another had a broken cheekbone and a broken nose. One gypsy has been arrested. Sources(in Bulgarian): 123
On October 01 2011 21:32 besiger wrote: Dear god, I just cant grasp this, are some of you people seriously saying that people from 7 - 8 different countries, all of which have gypsies, are all bigoted and racist, and it could in no way have anything to do with this one particular minority ? Do you think we are living in the 1800s here and preach racial inferiority ? Is it that hard to admit there might be a problem if this many people are voicing their concerns, or is it just easier to scream RACIST.
Yes all bigoted and racist. When i travel to CZ and i travel alot to CZ the blatend racism is just overwelming. Allso in HU you got people wearing (slighty modified) nazi uniforms that get 14% of the votes in the recent election. If you dont call those guys nacist nazi pigs you are just wrong dude.
And dont tell the rest of the world 'if you dont live in a country with them you dont know what you are talking about". Its wrong, every country has a population living in lower social standards then the rest. Where I live there is a huge increase in criminal behavior due to new people coming from Eastern Europe. This has nothing to do with were they are from it has to do with the social standing.
Low social standing=more criminals.
You are taking facts and altering them to make conclusions which are false. Yes, at the last elections a Hungarian extreme-right party got 14%. But u forget to mention, that Hungary was led by left wing party for 8 years, and that extreme-right didnt really exist/was ignorable. When the voice-records of PM Gyurcsany got leaked, in which he talked about how badly they fucked it up, and how much they lied, well yeah obviously tons of people are gonna vote for the opposed parties and in a crisis situatuion like this, obviously extremes benefit as well. In any other circumstances that party wouldnt have got nearly as much. Btw call them neo-fascist or whatever, but dont call them nazis, because they arent.
The other part, yes, in CZ and in general in Central-Eastern Europe racism is widespread. That doesnt mean everybody who considers the gypsy situation a problem is racist.
Also you speak about social standing, and how that causes criminal activity. While that is certainly true, it's wrong to bring up in this context, because gypsies had the same opportunities and rights (+some extra benefits) for a very long time. You can't really compare that to say, an illegal imigrant community or a formerly slave community. They dont like to learn in general, that's a fact, schools and universities are free/have free spots + extra spots for students with rroma background, yet they dont take up on those opportunities to brake out. Lots of them are content with how they live now.
Btw just take this thread, read the comments defending the gypsies, most of those comments are very ignorant towards the critques, and call everybody racist and bigot, like you do, and in most of the cases they dont live in a country whit gypsy population. The other part, at least a good portion of it, brings examples and arguments and experience based proofs. Racism is ignorance+generalization, wouldnt you agree? Well, definetly both parts generalize a lot here, but those who try to defend them seem more ignorant, at least to me.
EPT
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