EPTBulgarian Riots - Page 40
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tjosan
Sweden120 Posts
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Slegg
Czech Republic75 Posts
On October 01 2011 19:11 tjosan wrote: Holy fuck you people are bigoted. "The gypsy problem"?! Try to search the web for hits on "the Jewish question" and see if you can't notice parables. A likely scenario with jews - they may wear silly hats. They want jews dead. A likely scenario with gypsies - they will probably rob you, given the chance. We try to integrate them to our society, help them with social support, give them homes which they destroy. We dont know what to do with them, thats why we call it a gypsie problem, we dont know what to do anymore and were fed up with the abuse. You may notice a bit of a difference here. Oh hey, were back to Godwins law. I propose a new one "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of not reading previous content and ignoring stated facts approaches 1." | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
On October 01 2011 19:11 tjosan wrote: Holy fuck you people are bigoted. "The gypsy problem"?! Try to search the web for hits on "the Jewish question" and see if you can't notice parables. People used to hate Jews primarily because they were very rich and held the best jobs and were bosses of many people+ were bankers so you probably owed them money. Most of them were intelectuals. People hate gypsies because they refuse to get jobs and are content to live from social services, stealing etc + are dangerous and their hygenic standards are very low. Most of them dont have education higher then 8 grades, lots of them even less. (even though it's mandatory and free in all EU states i know). Personal experience: i know 0 gypsies at university (even though there are tons of state-found spots which are completly free), the few i think have gypsy background dont consider themselves gypsy and would be very pissed if one would call them so. Generally speaking of course So no, i dont really see parables. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
As for all the ppl defending the gypsies and saying how "horrific" there acts are: Honestly im all against racism but when more then half of a race is unemployed and more the 3/4 of the kids did not even complete the 10th grade ( 10th is the "obligatory" level of education here and the highest you can get without risking of getting kicked out of the school for good due to poor grades ) even tho all education is free and they have special places which do not require them to have the grades other students do + monetary help for gypsy kids going into high school. And even tho the above is true... there clan leaders have expensive houses and cars... its kinda obvious how involved they are in organized and unorganized crime. And due note that they aren't anything like the black guys in USA, they are considered ppl with almost equal rights since forever, they are considered ppl with equal rights since somewhere around the 1859 ( i think ) and since 1947 they have some advantages over the others due to having "gypsy only" social help in some domains such as schooling. Not to mention a lot of them were unemployed and not going to school even before 1989 when the communist state would give a job+house to anyone who wanted it and schooling was free all the way up to final year of college. ( some of theme were living in villages where it was hard sending your kids to school but still all 4 of my grandparents were born in villages and they got to school and were able to get a job in a city ). Now compare the above to what happened to black ppl in USA and you kinda understand why ppl hate them ( and i bet you 90% of the est europe + most of the Italian posters can back me up when i saw its not there skin color, language or culture that makes ppl hate gypsies ). | ||
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besiger
Croatia2452 Posts
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EtohEtoh
Canada669 Posts
it's an issue with their culture and their society that naturally opposes the way everyone else lives. using Geo.Rion's example, seeing a gypsy attending university, someone trying to integrate themselves, they wouldn't be considered the same as the homeless gypsy. Other students may be wary, understandably so, given they may have other run-ins with gypsys. Again, following Geo.Rion's post, a gypsy who's integrated themselves into society would no longer be seen as a "gypsy", would no longer call themselves "gypsy". Simply because the term used to refer to a group of people. Now it refers to a subset of that group that like to take from others. I don't know if other languages have come up with another word to differentiate between "gypsy" and "criminal gypsy", but english has not yet, and this is an english board, so we must deal with that. I strongly suggest that you read every post replacing "gypsy" with "criminal", (and once again, i'm not saying all gypsies are criminals, just a particular subset that people refer to when they use the word gypsy), because that's what all the "bigots"are actually refering to. And no, I don't believe that people who don't have to deal with the brunt of the gypsy problem, are somehow more morally mature. back to the comparison, a jew in university, or anywhere, would be seen as plagueing the land at the time, people want gypsies to integrate to society, not seperate them from it like in the case of the jews. and it's just not happening. i'm actually going to keep arguing the "english needs a word for criminal gypsy", because it desperately does,else we get confusion, like here | ||
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Geo.Rion
7377 Posts
Check out these monstrosities: ![[image loading]](http://lh6.ggpht.com/-NusHgyG9pKs/Ror9wf3Cy-I/AAAAAAAAAxg/TBZm5uqMcWo/RoHu2006_Aranyosgyeres_Ciganypalota01.jpg) They give you a tour (or used to at least) for something like 100 euroes, and a newsportal, transindex.ro took the tour. i ll try to dig up the article I think this was it, it's in Hungarian, i'd like to translate just a few sentences : http://eletmod.transindex.ro/?cikk=4418 It basically says how the palaces are not habitated and shows some pictures and talks about all the high tech and expensive stuff in there, which are unused, and how they asked more and more money from the reporters. And here's a somewaht word-by-word translation: " When we're leaving we had to give away xy sum of money to the kids who were growing in numbers continuosly, because they were ON the car and we could not start it. As it turns out, and excellent strategic move is to give some money to one of the smaller girls, because at least four of the bigger kids will jump on her, and we can get away unnoticed meanwhile." | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
On October 01 2011 21:45 EtohEtoh wrote: the difference is that nobody think gypsies are naturally born thieves, it's an issue with their culture and their society that naturally opposes the way everyone else lives. using Geo.Rion's example, seeing a gypsy attending university, someone trying to integrate themselves, they wouldn't be considered the same as the homeless gypsy. Other students may be wary, understandably so, given they may have other run-ins with gypsys. Again, following Geo.Rion's post, a gypsy who's integrated themselves into society would no longer be seen as a "gypsy", would no longer call themselves "gypsy". Simply because the term used to refer to a group of people. Now it refers to a subset of that group that like to take from others. I don't know if other languages have come up with another word to differentiate between "gypsy" and "criminal gypsy", but english has not yet, and this is an english board, so we must deal with that. I strongly suggest that you read every post replacing "gypsy" with "criminal", (and once again, i'm not saying all gypsies are criminals, just a particular subset that people refer to when they use the word gypsy), because that's what all the "bigots"are actually refering to. And no, I don't believe that people who don't have to deal with the brunt of the gypsy problem, are somehow more morally mature. back to the comparison, a jew in university, or anywhere, would be seen as plagueing the land at the time, people want gypsies to integrate to society, not seperate them from it like in the case of the jews. and it's just not happening. i'm actually going to keep arguing the "english needs a word for criminal gypsy", because it desperately does,else we get confusion, like here This is purely a pc issue. You could just say "criminal" and skip the gypsy part altogether, nobody is going to argue that fighting crime is racism. But this would fail to acknowledge the problem, of communities that revolve around petty crime you can't fight, because you can't fine people who have no papers, no identity and no money, you can't arrest entire villages, you can't even "help" them with welfare homes because it goes against their retarded worldview. But of course if you say "gypsy" people jump because they're either too naive to realize that certain belief systems or cultures are incompatible with our civilization, or they're in mala fide. I personally say gypsy out of respect for those Roma people who did hfind enough conscience to separate themselves. | ||
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RageBot
Israel1530 Posts
On October 01 2011 19:11 tjosan wrote: Holy fuck you people are bigoted. "The gypsy problem"?! Try to search the web for hits on "the Jewish question" and see if you can't notice parables. Actually, the Jewish problem was the direct opposite of what the Gypsy problem is. The european Jews (pre-holocaust) were known to be able to integrate too well into society, to give so much that they gain a lot more power, the higher you would've looked at the "chain of command" in germany, the higher precentage of jews you would've seen. Pepole were afraid that the jews will take over the world from the top down (which is somewhat of a sign of respect to jewish capabilities or whatever), while the gypsy's are collapsing society from the bottom up, by leeching society's money and hurting the common folk. | ||
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EtohEtoh
Canada669 Posts
On October 01 2011 22:32 dementrio wrote: This is purely a pc issue. You could just say "criminal" and skip the gypsy part altogether, nobody is going to argue that fighting crime is racism. But this would fail to acknowledge the problem, of communities that revolve around petty crime you can't fight, because you can't fine people who have no papers, no identity and no money, you can't arrest entire villages, you can't even "help" them with welfare homes because it goes against their retarded worldview. But of course if you say "gypsy" people jump because they're either too naive to realize that certain belief systems or cultures are incompatible with our civilization, or they're in mala fide. I personally say gypsy out of respect for those Roma people who did hfind enough conscience to separate themselves. of course, i'm only talking about the lesser pc issue. As i've said before, I don't know enough about the situation to even make an opinion on how to deal with the gypsies. i'm talking about specifically about those people who jump at "gypsy", because there are some, in this thread. and with that big white square warning at the top of this thread, i'm afraid that someone who posts something perfectly reasonable gets banned or reported | ||
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SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
oh well, people from eastern europe are disgusting racist biggots i suppose, all of em who are throwing around blanket statements about the gypsies. all of em mmmmm,suddenly a delicious irony taste in my mouth. must be iron just a fun remark to all the people who excuse the gypsy deportations from france and italy on the basis they entered the country illegally: do you peeps think gypsies received an invitation to come to these parts of europe in the first place? god forbid we in turn deport the gypsies back to India where they originally were banished from, T-1 hour until glorious Murrika bombs our Nazi asses with UN and NATO approval. Oh, and God's approval also, he is always on freedom's side. | ||
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Tudi
Romania127 Posts
god forbid we in turn deport the gypsies back to India where they originally were banished from, T-1 hour until glorious Murrika bombs our Nazi asses with UN and NATO approval. Oh, and God's approval also, he is always on freedom's side. Are you suggesting Romania and Bulgaria should team up and ask the UN and NATO to help bomb France for deporting them back to us? We'd do it without their help, but the gypsies stole all our bombs (all four of them) :C | ||
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Deleted User 183001
2939 Posts
On October 01 2011 22:52 RageBot wrote: Actually, the Jewish problem was the direct opposite of what the Gypsy problem is. The european Jews (pre-holocaust) were known to be able to integrate too well into society, to give so much that they gain a lot more power, the higher you would've looked at the "chain of command" in germany, the higher precentage of jews you would've seen. Pepole were afraid that the jews will take over the world from the top down (which is somewhat of a sign of respect to jewish capabilities or whatever), while the gypsy's are collapsing society from the bottom up, by leeching society's money and hurting the common folk. Probably not integrated well enough. When people are living with countrymen of the same heritage, nationality, language, culture, and yet many live in their own neighborhoods as if they are significantly different, that's a hell of a lot different than say recent Mexican immigrants to the US living together because stuff and people and culture in the US are 100x different than in Mexico. Also, it wasn't Jews collectively, but a few who since the rise of modern banking had gained very powerful positions when it was still considered taboo among Christians to get into that sort of business. Most Jews were poor/middle-class folks, fyi. Unfortunately, in the German (also in the Soviet one, which would play a big role at the end of WW2) "chain of command" as you say, there were a prominent number of Jews in big positions in banking and other sectors which had been building up over the preceding few sectors, and on top of this, those guys were really instrumental in fucking up Germany following WW1 at the domestic level. Why it is unfortunate is those dumbfuck goons really screwed things up the image of Jews and bolstered Judeophobic propaganda, who of course would become subject to deportations and death and other sufferings during WW2. To say the least though, if Jews were well-integrated, as in there weren't "Jewish neighborhoods" where at least a large percentage of Jews resided, and if you saw a fellow countryman, you couldn't tell their religion/denomination, and the Christian religion didn't matter to Jews and vice versa (although Christian doctrine and writings are rather forgiving/amiable; I can't say the same about what's written in the Talmud unfortunately for the other way around), I believe the persecution would have been much less significant. | ||
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Bulgarian
Bulgaria10 Posts
It's absolutely wrong and fake to compare the situation in Bulgaria with the deportation of jews and so on. The hypocrats from the western EU countries are deporting people, not us. The gypsy minorithy in our country is used by the politicians as a paid vote and is very well protected by the laws. Most of the bulgarians are sick of the fake political system and don't vote, thats why we are not valuable for the political class. This is happening for 20 years, the whole country is protecting this ethnical minority and giving it extra rights, like if they are the master race and we are living under slavery. We don't live in democracy, but under a dictatorship of the gypsy proletariat. Before you start talking about human rights, think about yourself if this is normal and why the state let these happen: - in the bulgarian villages there is a huge wave of terror against bulgarians. These are not social, but ethically motivated crimes - raping and killing old bulgarian villagers, stealing their belongings and money. They are getting killed for like 3 euros and the police is doing nothing to solve the problem - most of the gypsies live from welfare and they make children, so they can get more money from the state. This is like their family business now. Most of them become parents in the age of 11 or 12, which I call and the laws call a pedophille crime, but the state call it "cultural habits", only because of their ethnical roots. If a bulgarian makes sex with 11 year old girl its a crime, if a gypsy make it - it's a tradition. Some of them also trade their daughters for money, this is also another cultural tradition. - they live by their own laws, they have their own court called "Meshare", which is independent from the bulgarian state. - they build their houses on public land illegally - most of them commit crimes of all kinds - stealing all kind of things, pickpocketing, stealing colour metals and destroying the electrical and train infrastructure. - most of them don't pay taxes, elecricity or water. But they use it and we pay for it - they go out armed with guns and all kinds of weapons, they say "Death to all bulgarians, we declare war!" and the police dosent arrest them. - We even don't have the right to protect our property. For example, there are several cases, when bulgarians are going to jail and getting sued by the state, because they are trying to protect their property and shoot the robbers, who are gypsies. If you shoot someone when he steals from you, you are the criminals. - They have no obligations, just rights So you should know that we are sick of this. We don't hate the gypsies, but we hate the gypsy crimes and the racist state, which discriminates us in our own home. It's a genocide agains all the normal bulgarian citizens who are part of our society - bulgarians, turkish people (who don't cause problems), armenian people, jews and so on. This is not right and should end now! | ||
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Rebel_lion
United States271 Posts
Racism is a world wide phenomenon, it is something that is hard wired to any culture or country. The parable your looking for is not blacks in the USA, but rather native Americans. A similar integration issue, nomadic people and world knows how we dealt with that "issue." What is monstrous is people are seemingly convincing themselves that is how it must be done. Who agrees with the way the US handled natives? Cultural/real genocide was our answer to a congruent problem, but i do not believe that is the best option! There is a strong disconnect here, but in instances of racism in the united states i do not see people screaming "you don't know, your not from here." That is a cheap answer and most are advocating a cheap solution. Angst ensues. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
On October 02 2011 15:54 Bulgarian wrote: I can't read the whole conversation, but want to share my opinion, because I'm a bulgarian. It's absolutely wrong and fake to compare the situation in Bulgaria with the deportation of jews and so on. The hypocrats from the western EU countries are deporting people, not us. The gypsy minorithy in our country is used by the politicians as a paid vote and is very well protected by the laws. Most of the bulgarians are sick of the fake political system and don't vote, thats why we are not valuable for the political class. This is happening for 20 years, the whole country is protecting this ethnical minority and giving it extra rights, like if they are the master race and we are living under slavery. We don't live in democracy, but under a dictatorship of the gypsy proletariat. Before you start talking about human rights, think about yourself if this is normal and why the state let these happen: - in the bulgarian villages there is a huge wave of terror against bulgarians. These are not social, but ethically motivated crimes - raping and killing old bulgarian villagers, stealing their belongings and money. They are getting killed for like 3 euros and the police is doing nothing to solve the problem - most of the gypsies live from welfare and they make children, so they can get more money from the state. This is like their family business now. Most of them become parents in the age of 11 or 12, which I call and the laws call a pedophille crime, but the state call it "cultural habits", only because of their ethnical roots. If a bulgarian makes sex with 11 year old girl its a crime, if a gypsy make it - it's a tradition. Some of them also trade their daughters for money, this is also another cultural tradition. - they live by their own laws, they have their own court called "Meshare", which is independent from the bulgarian state. - they build their houses on public land illegally - most of them commit crimes of all kinds - stealing all kind of things, pickpocketing, stealing colour metals and destroying the electrical and train infrastructure. - most of them don't pay taxes, elecricity or water. But they use it and we pay for it - they go out armed with guns and all kinds of weapons, they say "Death to all bulgarians, we declare war!" and the police dosent arrest them. - We even don't have the right to protect our property. For example, there are several cases, when bulgarians are going to jail and getting sued by the state, because they are trying to protect their property and shoot the robbers, who are gypsies. If you shoot someone when he steals from you, you are the criminals. - They have no obligations, just rights So you should know that we are sick of this. We don't hate the gypsies, but we hate the gypsy crimes and the racist state, which discriminates us in our own home. It's a genocide agains all the normal bulgarian citizens who are part of our society - bulgarians, turkish people (who don't cause problems), armenian people, jews and so on. This is not right and should end now! O.o This seems kinda extreme, never heard of it being THIS bad, not saying is not true but never heard that the gypsy problem in Bulgaria goes to such an extreme, if its like that then we got it really well here compared to you. On October 02 2011 16:55 Rebel_lion wrote: I think a lot of the break in understanding found in this thread can be tied to Americans thinking Europeans aren't as racist as our country. I know polish people that swear against Armenians and Russians in general, Germans hate the Turkish and so on... Racism is a world wide phenomenon, it is something that is hard wired to any culture or country. The parable your looking for is not blacks in the USA, but rather native Americans. A similar integration issue, nomadic people and world knows how we dealt with that "issue." What is monstrous is people are seemingly convincing themselves that is how it must be done. Who agrees with the way the US handled natives? Cultural/real genocide was our answer to a congruent problem, but i do not believe that is the best option! There is a strong disconnect here, but in instances of racism in the united states i do not see people screaming "you don't know, your not from here." That is a cheap answer and most are advocating a cheap solution. Angst ensues. This kind of reps is what pisses me of, you see my friend, nor you nor most of the ppl from US understand this since you KILLED 90% of the native Americans hundreds of years ago and the US police is still treating black ppl as "higher risk to be a criminal" in many states. I would be totally oky with all the guys from USA saying "is wrong to discriminate against the gypsies communities" IF they actually did the same in there country centuries ago when the slaughtered the Indians and even 60 years ago when black ppl were still considered and inferior race. And all tho USA discriminated for centuries and not only discriminated but also took measures against other races while the countries from east EU always had equal or almost equal right between natives and gypsies... guess what ? USA GDP per capita is 5 times higher then the one of countries from east EU... looking at those numbers is hard to say that 2 centuries of slavery and 2 centuries of racism had SUCH a negative effect on the country. Honestly before making a post about how racist the guys from Bulgaria are just think for a moment: "Would i agree if all those guys would come and make camp near my city... begin robing ppl and begging on the streets". Up until few years ago France and even Italy were really big on the whole " Racism against gypsies is bad"... gypsies came in there countries, they are quite quiet now. And do note that i am writing all of the above while i am sitting in a comfy chair with my food and bed assured for the next few year due to the fact that i had the luck to be born in a family with an above the avg income. Now think of a guy that has only 1/5 of what i do and that is barely able to feed his children getting robed in the middle of the street or getting his house broken into... not only that he can hire a lawyer ... he doesn't have the money to buy food :/ Now think that most of those crimes are committed by gypsies and the state give them social help on top of that ( had 3 cases in my family where there hoses got broke into and all 3 times they were gypsy that did it, and consider that the hoses were in the civilized areas of the cities... ). You are kinda hearthless if you say those ppl are doing the wrong thing rioting . | ||
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Bulgarian
Bulgaria10 Posts
Here - watch this documentary video about Varna's gypsy ghetto called "Maksuda" - It's in bulgarian, but just watch it. You will see views from the gypsy ghetto. It is situated in the centre of the city and they cant remove it, although its completely illegal. http://wikimapia.org/899617/bg/Максуда | ||
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betaV1.25
425 Posts
On October 01 2011 21:32 besiger wrote: Dear god, I just cant grasp this, are some of you people seriously saying that people from 7 - 8 different countries, all of which have gypsies, are all bigoted and racist, and it could in no way have anything to do with this one particular minority ? Do you think we are living in the 1800s here and preach racial inferiority ? Is it that hard to admit there might be a problem if this many people are voicing their concerns, or is it just easier to scream RACIST. Yes all bigoted and racist. When i travel to CZ and i travel alot to CZ the blatend racism is just overwelming. Allso in HU you got people wearing (slighty modified) nazi uniforms that get 14% of the votes in the recent election. If you dont call those guys nacist nazi pigs you are just wrong dude. ![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_O1jei1tFuLA/S8HrKzc95dI/AAAAAAAABqk/lMXgSvSqW2o/s1600/u__Jobbik_.jpg) And dont tell the rest of the world 'if you dont live in a country with them you dont know what you are talking about". Its wrong, every country has a population living in lower social standards then the rest. Where I live there is a huge increase in criminal behavior due to new people coming from Eastern Europe. This has nothing to do with were they are from it has to do with the social standing. Low social standing=more criminals. | ||
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Taosu
Ukraine1074 Posts
They are rich people because they trade heroin. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
On October 02 2011 17:33 betaV1.25 wrote: And dont tell the rest of the world 'if you dont live in a country with them you dont know what you are talking about". Its wrong, every country has a population living in lower social standards then the rest. Where I live there is a huge increase in criminal behavior due to new people coming from Eastern Europe. This has nothing to do with were they are from it has to do with the social standing. Low social standing=more criminals. Since you obviously know what you are talking about, can you something: Explain to me from a logical POV how did the gypsies end up having a lower social standing considering that for 200 years they had the same rights ass the rest of the ppl, they got "free" homes and jobs like everyone did during the communist period and they have a lot of social advantages such as special laws and special school spots ? Im not saying you are wrong but i do not understand from where you get the idea that they got "driven" into having a lower social standings. | ||
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