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On September 29 2011 22:40 dementrio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 22:22 decemberTV wrote:
This here is the very hard truth. Europe has immigrants from all over the world who within 2-3 generations become assimilated and integrated (for the most part).
Gypsies have been around for hundreds of years and that process simply has not taken place.
Americans in particular fail to see that its not an issue of race, but of culture.
At the same time its very difficult to get a lecture in multiculturalism from an american who is even against spanish being introduced as a second language when the EU has 23 different official languages and minorities are given the posibility to study in their own native language from primary school to university. (For example, the Hungarian minority in Romania). It is not only a matter of integration. There are other groups that seem to pose an integration problem; examples are the chinese and some muslim groups in scandinavia, where they tend to isolate themselves and it's not uncommon to find 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants that are not fluent in their host country language. But no matter how much swedish people think this entitles them to racism, gypsies are a much, much larger social problem.
As i said, immigration without assimilation is virtually impossible. You simply cannot have islands of many many different values and then hope to have a centralized state with uniform laws and rules for everyone.
Immigrants should be ready to drop those values / ways that differ too much from the local population.
For example, being muslim and following the muslim faith is perfectly fine as long as the traditional muslim treatment of women is forgotten or dropped. What you can't have is muslim men threatening Swedish women with rape unless they start wearing burkas.
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In Italy there is, and there has been for quite some time, a chinese community that is almost completely insulated from the rest of society. Chinese send their kids to chinese schools, buy their groceries from chinese shops that have chinese suppliers. I wouldn't consider that a succesful example of integration, but there never was a chinese immigration problem.
So I am of the opinion that assimilation or integration is not necessary. Let the gypsies form their communities if they wish to do so. The problem is that penalties for illegal behaviour such as not sending kids to school or living in places that do not meet regulations were designed under the assumption that people in general have some sort of self-respect, and cannot deal with a whole culture that makes homelessness desirable. And passing special laws is a political clusterfuck because it would (correctly) be discrimination.
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what sucks is the language, and connotation that words like "gypsy" carry.
i'm pretty sure when people are talking about gypsies, they are talking about the thieving-type.
unfortunately, it can easily be misconstrued as a racial epithet. Which is why this subject is so touchy... from a north american point of view. in NA we don't deal with them, but from my time in Europe, i can definitely understand the problem.
what sucks is NA is too pc on some subjects, since they don't have to deal with them directly, and in the end the rest of the world kinda gets influenced.
one of my high school once told a story about how he got robbed by a gypsy, and somehow he found a fucking way to end the story by telling us how racism is bad, because he's got to be pc.
on the topic of integration, and remember i'm talking about the "criminal" gypsy (gotta say this, since i might hit Cloud-level hate),
you can support other cultures, laws are constantly being changed to support the muslim population here, nobody gets exactly what they want, but everyone can tolerate it. and there are plenty of folk that you can find, that just don't speak any languages you do, but atleast they know right from wrong.
gypsies on the other hand, just don't like the basic rules of society, or society as we know it today. Like what others have said, they are basically parasites, they earn off of other peoples work.
that's why deporting them is so wierd, deport them to romania? romania doesn't want them.
there's no "gypsy" country because a parasite needs a host, and a snake can't eat it's own tail.
It just makes me mad, I like to assume that everybody is logical, and actually following society's rules, especially in this day and age, is probably one of the more logical things you can do. In other circumstances, they would be in jail, just like the man who steals from Wal-Mart, but nope, can't do shit, it's racism.
unfortunately, this topic is far more complex than i can understand, since i'm neither a sociologist nor European.
i'm gonna just say again, I don't think gypsy's are naturally criminals, i'm posting here because i saw that Cloud thread, and it just made me realize pc we are, even i had to force myself be pc in this post. And that this problem is far greater than most would admit, not in magnitude, simply in solution. I would be interested in the day that someone, somehow, solves this socialogical issue
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I've read the majority of the thread, and it's interesting to see that all the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy have the same problem as we, Hungarians do.
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On October 01 2011 03:19 valaki wrote:
I've read the majority of the thread, and it's interesting to see that all the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy have the same problem as we, Hungarians do.
Problem being rampant bigotry?
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On October 01 2011 03:23 Takezou wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:19 valaki wrote:
I've read the majority of the thread, and it's interesting to see that all the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy have the same problem as we, Hungarians do. Problem being rampant bigotry?
Nope, but why do you feel yourself qualified to pass judgement on something which you're clearly not involved in? Just asking, I'm really curious.
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Gypsies are a huge problem. But as time passes by it will be harder and harder to integrate them, so states have to come up with some insanely good integration plans or be prepared for even worse in the near future.
Giving the same social help to them as to everyone else, without the expectations society has for its average people just encourages them to continue the same lifestyle. The biggest problem is their general mindset and the lack of shame. So many things are prevented in society not trough laws but trough the fact that if you commit something you'll have to deal with the shame. Gypsies (most of them anyways) dont feel ashamed of things which are unfathomable to a lot of people, like lack of higeny, not having a real job for years/decades/entire life, begging, pick-pocketing, public nudity, incest and many other things.
I wish i could say it's wrong to generalize like that, but unfortunately i basically dont know any decent /hard working gypsy, i barely ever hear about them, the few ones i know about are living completly separately from their kind though.
I dont know about any town or village when gypsies and the non-gypsies are coexisting peacefully. The villages i know dont have troubles of this kind are those which are almost entirely populated by them. Strangely enough, they do uphold a relative order if there's no richer/more organized communities around to "leech" (<- i m thinkig about a more politically correct word, but i dont know one).
I'm really not a racist, i am also part of an ethnical minority, but the gypsy problem is definetely real, and it will get bigger and bigger
And to the guy who asked for personal experience, yes, i have experience of gyspies stealing or trying to steal from me or engaging in other activities which directly or indirectly are hurtful for me or those who are close to me. I actually don't think i know anyone who doesnt. I understand you canot really get how it's possible, but it is.
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On October 01 2011 03:28 valaki wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:23 Takezou wrote:On October 01 2011 03:19 valaki wrote:
I've read the majority of the thread, and it's interesting to see that all the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy have the same problem as we, Hungarians do. Problem being rampant bigotry? Nope, but why do you feel yourself qualified to pass judgement on something which you're clearly not involved in? Just asking, I'm really curious.
Frankly, because I can read. It isn't that hard if you can actually do that and go through this thread.
Not that hard to spot really.
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On October 01 2011 03:23 Takezou wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 03:19 valaki wrote:
I've read the majority of the thread, and it's interesting to see that all the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Italy have the same problem as we, Hungarians do. Problem being rampant bigotry?
You should trust him, he read a few posts while concentrating on a few bad words, Im sure he can give objective true statements unlike us who live with them, we clearly dont know shit.
oh wait
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lol, it's funny because i saw his post, then saw his location.
if you're from the US, or outside Europe, you can't really understand the gypsy problem, (that includes me, i state that in my above post)
Takezou's post is a prime example of what I was talking about.
North american citizen's will, a good portion of the time, simply go "That's Racist!!!" (where's that gif), because racism is one of those aspects get focused on during school.
He's assuming bigotry, simply because he doesn't know about the issue
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I guess I know why gypsies don´t fare much better than average here. They have to compete with us. (Yes, there are gypsies in my country.)
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On October 01 2011 04:52 EtohEtoh wrote:
lol, it's funny because i saw his post, then saw his location.
if you're from the US, or outside Europe, you can't really understand the gypsy problem, (that includes me, i state that in my above post)
Takezou's post is a prime example of what I was talking about.
North american citizen's will, a good portion of the time, simply go "That's Racist!!!" (where's that gif), because racism is one of those aspects get focused on during school.
He's assuming bigotry, simply because he doesn't know about the issue
Are you saying that looking at other examples of bigotry in the past we can't pass judgement because we were not there?
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On September 29 2011 22:00 bonifaceviii wrote:
I'm Canadian so I don't know about gypsies, but I am native so I at least can say (from my own people's experience) that forced assimilation doesn't work and moving populations into ghettos/reservations only works if you give them enough perverted incentives to stay there.
btw: no hard feelings about our land, whitey, s'all good
I've been reading this thread and it parallels the native's plight in Canada very closely. The thing about intergration is it doesn't really work if you let the minority retain even a small fraction of their land or culture. If you want peace in a imperial state you either have to eliminate every last remnant of the culture or the people themselves, then you can have peace(you don't hear the Beothuks asking for their land back). Otherwise people are so damn stubborn and hold onto whatever they can of the past and cause problems. This world is too PC for genocide these days though, so there is no easy answer.
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On October 01 2011 06:48 Takezou wrote:Show nested quote +On October 01 2011 04:52 EtohEtoh wrote:
lol, it's funny because i saw his post, then saw his location.
if you're from the US, or outside Europe, you can't really understand the gypsy problem, (that includes me, i state that in my above post)
Takezou's post is a prime example of what I was talking about.
North american citizen's will, a good portion of the time, simply go "That's Racist!!!" (where's that gif), because racism is one of those aspects get focused on during school.
He's assuming bigotry, simply because he doesn't know about the issue
Are you saying that looking at other examples of bigotry in the past we can't pass judgement because we were not there?
I love history. I like to compare things that have happened to what are happening when im bored.
This is nothing like what blacks had in America.
Again, I shall repeat what everone has said here a ten times already.
You cannot understand the problem if youre from America, you will go thats racist! and assume that when we say we hate just the ghetto type and that the ghetto type is literraly everyone, you will ignore us and say thats racist again.
Maybe not you, but someone in the next few pages will, and then we will have the same problem we had the last 30 pages.
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oh hell, i m from romania, and about 2 years ago , the mayor of my city just moved some gypsy`es in it , offc , everything that could be stolen got stolen. The problem is that i don t think they have other options...i mean who would hire a Gypsy? probably less than 2 percent of the emplyers out there, not to mention the lack of education, becouse they still remain way to atached to they re cultural beliefs that they don t need education as long as they can steal. What really bugs me is the confusion and the fact that other countryes make the mistake of calling them Romanians or Bulgarians. not Rommani, or Roms, or Gypsyes as an Ethnic group. Even the Czech official website till about a year ago didn t make a separation beetwen them saying something like "in Czech there is also a large population of Gypsyes also called Romanians". And stuff like that really annoys me
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On September 28 2011 07:01 JohnnyReverb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 06:47 Biff The Understudy wrote:On September 27 2011 21:32 aTnClouD wrote:
dude you have no idea how wicked gypsies are. they are a true plague to humanity and only the people living in countries who have them understand. ask bulgarians, romanians, french or italian people they will all tell you the same. I don't have any problem with gypsies to be honest. So I guess that's a bit of a wild statement. no its not. im originally from focsani, vrancea, in romania, and you simply dont know what you are talking about! again, those people who didnt use to live with them, should just listen to people from hungary, bulgaria, especially from romania. - you never had to beaten up 3-4 kids only avoiding not to be pushed into a corner with more scumms waiting for you - you never ever have seen such big trash houses and the conditions that they are living in, but they dont want to change at all - you never have been pickpocked in the bus corner, carefully watching everything around you! - you never find a such cleverness from roma kids, or roma in general - and you never have seen such brutality from men, who got nothing to loose edit: and i forgot: in romania when you see a bmw x5 or an audi s8, its 50/50 that a rich gipsy would sit in. but would they share ? no the hell ! not a bit. romania is a country where money rules, harder and deeper than in other countries. just talk with people from greece or italy or bulgaria, romania, hungary... you will find the similar opinions!
almost 40 pages, and nobody understands...
romani are NOT HABITANTS FROM ROMANIA. THEY ARE GYPSY'S. only like 10% are in the country "romania" ROMA'S !! we (i am myself romanian, not a gypsy goddamn) call ourselves români, like germans call themselves germans. i hope its clear!
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On October 01 2011 04:52 EtohEtoh wrote:
lol, it's funny because i saw his post, then saw his location.
if you're from the US, or outside Europe, you can't really understand the gypsy problem, (that includes me, i state that in my above post)
Takezou's post is a prime example of what I was talking about.
North american citizen's will, a good portion of the time, simply go "That's Racist!!!" (where's that gif), because racism is one of those aspects get focused on during school.
He's assuming bigotry, simply because he doesn't know about the issue
And you're talking about being PC, it's the same thing as pulling the "racist"-card.
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how is talking about the faults of having a flawed perspective the same as, having a flawed perspective
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I live in Hungary. Everyone i know have negative opinion on gypsys and already suffered because of their culture. I was robbed 5 times personally.
Most people became very reserved with them, generally a gypsy have to prove first he is not like most of them to get accepted and not the other way around when they would get accepted until they don't make trouble...
I think it reflects how big is the problem.
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Meh,
You may think it's possible for a group to be "culturally" homeless, as in refusing to get out of their state of homelessness, and raising their kids as bums, AND for that group to coexist peacefully within a modern society. I don't think it's possible, I have no problem declaring myself a bigot if that is what you have to call my stance.
Homeless people have close to no chance to finding jobs, that leaves them only welfare and/or crime to sustain themselves. Nomadic culture may be noble and romantic, but choosing that way of life automatically makes yourself a parasite. Gypsy culture is immoral and criminal under every western value system.
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EPT
