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On April 23 2012 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:56 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:33 Looms wrote:
If someone from the Thunder hit Kobe like that, the reaction from the league would be at least 3x worse. Good to see that they have normalized standards in the NBA (hey, at least its at the level of the bogus NHL suspension durations, right?) Yet when Dwayne Wade hit Kobe in the All-Star game, broke his nose and gave him a concussion I was on the "oh it was just a hard foul, no punishment deserved" team. And if I haven't demonstrated how huge of a Kobe Bryant fan I am at this point I don't know what else I need to do. Injury wise, the two fouls were totally equal if not favored in Kobe's direction because his nose was actually broken. The only difference here is how bad it looks and who is the one delivering the foul. ROFL They're COMPLETELY different. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Artest fucking ELBOWED THE GUY TO THE HEAD when he wasn't even trying to make a fucking play for something. Like HOW DO YOU THINK THIS CASE IS THE SAME AS ANYTHING BEFORE? Not that I dont think Artest's red misting isnt worse. But I hope your not saying its apparantly better to do it as long as you disguise it as a play, because thats not really that hard to do. So yes motives are questionable in any case. Artest is just dumb as shit, or well crazy. Umm no, I was making the distinction between actually playing a physical sport and assault. This was assault.
Well thats my point isnt it. You say hes making a play, but he could just be using that as a chance to hurt a player. Thats a cheap paper thin wall to hide behind imo when you hurt someone. Players know how to foul hard. Putting your hands to another persons face from behind isnt a tad bit overboard ? In an All Star game ? Think about it ..Thats my point "Oh its Wade, and he was just trying to stop Kobe." "O its Artest, hes a crazy violent mofo that wants to kill people, no play was involved."
In his case people wouldnt be any less incensed even if he did it making a play, because its Ron.
(while these are both probably true, Id hesitate to go nuts in either case.)
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On April 23 2012 10:01 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Looms wrote:
if Artest felt that Harden was getting in his way while he ran up the court (by the way he was too busy celebrating his mediocre dunk to sprint back on defense), he could have just pushed Harden out of the way instead of throwing an elbow. the elbow is what people are making a big deal about here. I totally agree that if all of this was really a result of Artest wanting Harden out of his way a push would have been a better idea. Which to me just lends itself to the argument that he honestly didn't know Harden was there. Otherwise why resort to the elbow as a first resort? that doesn't make any sense to me. Yea to people who think Artest is a violent lunatic it does, but that's their own bias guiding their perception of the situation. ... Harden makes contact with Artest. Artest clearly knows that he is there. Once again you are trying to make sense of Ron Artest. You can't do that. Why the hell did he run into the stands in Detroit? People think Artest is a violent lunatic because he is and he has proven that time and time again.
This is why we do jury screenings.
You clearly would never make it on to a jury in the US because of how quickly you are to jump to the conclusions about someone's motivations.
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On April 23 2012 10:02 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:33 Looms wrote:
If someone from the Thunder hit Kobe like that, the reaction from the league would be at least 3x worse. Good to see that they have normalized standards in the NBA (hey, at least its at the level of the bogus NHL suspension durations, right?) Yet when Dwayne Wade hit Kobe in the All-Star game, broke his nose and gave him a concussion I was on the "oh it was just a hard foul, no punishment deserved" team. And if I haven't demonstrated how huge of a Kobe Bryant fan I am at this point I don't know what else I need to do. Injury wise, the two fouls were totally equal if not favored in Kobe's direction because his nose was actually broken. The only difference here is how bad it looks and who is the one delivering the foul. ROFL They're COMPLETELY different. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Artest fucking ELBOWED THE GUY TO THE HEAD when he wasn't even trying to make a fucking play for something. Like HOW DO YOU THINK THIS CASE IS THE SAME AS ANYTHING BEFORE? Not that I dont think Artest's red misting isnt worse. But I hope your not saying its apparantly better to do it as long as you disguise it as a play, because thats not really that hard to do. So yes motives are questionable in any case. Artest is just dumb as shit, or well crazy. Umm no, I was making the distinction between actually playing a physical sport and assault. This was assault. Well thats my point isnt it. You say hes making a play, but he could just be using that as a chance to hurt a player. Thats a cheap paper thin wall to hide behind imo when you hurt someone. Players know how to foul hard. Putting your hands to another persons face from behind isnt a tad bit overboard ? In an All Star game ? Think about it ..Thats my point "Oh its Wade, and he was just trying to stop Kobe." "O its Artest, hes a crazy violent mofo that wants to kill people, no play was involved." In his case people wouldnt be any less incensed even if he did it making a play, because its Ron. (while these are both probably true, Id hesitate to go nuts in either case.)
Basically I'm in agreement.
The only reason people are calling for the gallows for Artest is because it's Artest. If it was anyone else the "let's not go nuts" argument would have already been accepted.
Apparently it's ok to go nuts here because we think the guy is nuts.
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On April 23 2012 10:02 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:33 Looms wrote:
If someone from the Thunder hit Kobe like that, the reaction from the league would be at least 3x worse. Good to see that they have normalized standards in the NBA (hey, at least its at the level of the bogus NHL suspension durations, right?) Yet when Dwayne Wade hit Kobe in the All-Star game, broke his nose and gave him a concussion I was on the "oh it was just a hard foul, no punishment deserved" team. And if I haven't demonstrated how huge of a Kobe Bryant fan I am at this point I don't know what else I need to do. Injury wise, the two fouls were totally equal if not favored in Kobe's direction because his nose was actually broken. The only difference here is how bad it looks and who is the one delivering the foul. ROFL They're COMPLETELY different. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Artest fucking ELBOWED THE GUY TO THE HEAD when he wasn't even trying to make a fucking play for something. Like HOW DO YOU THINK THIS CASE IS THE SAME AS ANYTHING BEFORE? Not that I dont think Artest's red misting isnt worse. But I hope your not saying its apparantly better to do it as long as you disguise it as a play, because thats not really that hard to do. So yes motives are questionable in any case. Artest is just dumb as shit, or well crazy. Umm no, I was making the distinction between actually playing a physical sport and assault. This was assault. Well thats my point isnt it. You say hes making a play, but he could just be using that as a chance to hurt a player. Thats a cheap paper thin wall to hide behind imo when you hurt someone. Players know how to foul hard. Putting your hands to another persons face from behind isnt a tad bit overboard ? In an All Star game ? Think about it ..Thats my point "Oh its Wade, and he was just trying to stop Kobe." "O its Artest, hes a crazy violent mofo that wants to kill people, no play was involved." In his case people wouldnt be any less incensed even if he did it making a play, because its Ron. (while these are both probably true, Id hesitate to go nuts in either case.)
Wade's was a hard foul but he wasn't intentionally trying to hurt kobe. When you try to wrap a guy up when they're as athletic as these guys you might hit something accidentally. From any angle I watch that wade foul I don't think anyone could say he was aiming for his face, just trying to keep him on the ground. In fact, both his hands ricocheted off the ball and ended up hitting his face.
Not only that, but consider the severity of the blow. Compare a legit elbow to the head with a huge intentional followthrough to a slap in the face.
They aren't even close to the same
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On April 23 2012 10:06 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:02 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:33 Looms wrote:
If someone from the Thunder hit Kobe like that, the reaction from the league would be at least 3x worse. Good to see that they have normalized standards in the NBA (hey, at least its at the level of the bogus NHL suspension durations, right?) Yet when Dwayne Wade hit Kobe in the All-Star game, broke his nose and gave him a concussion I was on the "oh it was just a hard foul, no punishment deserved" team. And if I haven't demonstrated how huge of a Kobe Bryant fan I am at this point I don't know what else I need to do. Injury wise, the two fouls were totally equal if not favored in Kobe's direction because his nose was actually broken. The only difference here is how bad it looks and who is the one delivering the foul. ROFL They're COMPLETELY different. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Artest fucking ELBOWED THE GUY TO THE HEAD when he wasn't even trying to make a fucking play for something. Like HOW DO YOU THINK THIS CASE IS THE SAME AS ANYTHING BEFORE? Not that I dont think Artest's red misting isnt worse. But I hope your not saying its apparantly better to do it as long as you disguise it as a play, because thats not really that hard to do. So yes motives are questionable in any case. Artest is just dumb as shit, or well crazy. Umm no, I was making the distinction between actually playing a physical sport and assault. This was assault. Well thats my point isnt it. You say hes making a play, but he could just be using that as a chance to hurt a player. Thats a cheap paper thin wall to hide behind imo when you hurt someone. Players know how to foul hard. Putting your hands to another persons face from behind isnt a tad bit overboard ? In an All Star game ? Think about it ..Thats my point "Oh its Wade, and he was just trying to stop Kobe." "O its Artest, hes a crazy violent mofo that wants to kill people, no play was involved." In his case people wouldnt be any less incensed even if he did it making a play, because its Ron. (while these are both probably true, Id hesitate to go nuts in either case.) Basically I'm in agreement. The only reason people are calling for the gallows for Artest is because it's Artest. If it was anyone else the "let's not go nuts" argument would have already been accepted. Apparently it's ok to go nuts here because we think the guy is nuts.
You are missing the point, we do not go crazy on Artest because of what he is (atleast not everyone). We are discussing what he DID. And yes he did wanted to hit Harden once he got bumped. No one is trying to say that he wanted to hit him right from the dunk, which is what you don't seem to understand.
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From watching re-watching the scene in slow-motion, it seems that Harden intentionally went up to artest and asked for it. I'm not saying that I'm defending Artest; however, the elbow was definitely a mistake.
But... the whole scene could of happened so fast for Artest and maybe it's typical for an NBA player to show emotion after doing some crazy dunk?
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On April 23 2012 10:04 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:01 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Looms wrote:
if Artest felt that Harden was getting in his way while he ran up the court (by the way he was too busy celebrating his mediocre dunk to sprint back on defense), he could have just pushed Harden out of the way instead of throwing an elbow. the elbow is what people are making a big deal about here. I totally agree that if all of this was really a result of Artest wanting Harden out of his way a push would have been a better idea. Which to me just lends itself to the argument that he honestly didn't know Harden was there. Otherwise why resort to the elbow as a first resort? that doesn't make any sense to me. Yea to people who think Artest is a violent lunatic it does, but that's their own bias guiding their perception of the situation. ... Harden makes contact with Artest. Artest clearly knows that he is there. Once again you are trying to make sense of Ron Artest. You can't do that. Why the hell did he run into the stands in Detroit? People think Artest is a violent lunatic because he is and he has proven that time and time again. This is why we do jury screenings. You clearly would never make it on to a jury in the US because of how quickly you are to jump to the conclusions about someone's motivations.
Here is the thing, I haven't made a conclusion about Ron Artest's motivation this entire time. All I have said is that he knew what he was doing. I have said multiple times that we cannot know why Ron would do this. Why? One, because it makes no sense. And two, because Ron is not a sane person. Thats not even up for debate. He has mental problems. These are well documented facts. Trying to understand why a crazy person would do something is impossible.
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On April 23 2012 10:10 Roggay wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:06 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 10:02 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:33 Looms wrote:
If someone from the Thunder hit Kobe like that, the reaction from the league would be at least 3x worse. Good to see that they have normalized standards in the NBA (hey, at least its at the level of the bogus NHL suspension durations, right?) Yet when Dwayne Wade hit Kobe in the All-Star game, broke his nose and gave him a concussion I was on the "oh it was just a hard foul, no punishment deserved" team. And if I haven't demonstrated how huge of a Kobe Bryant fan I am at this point I don't know what else I need to do. Injury wise, the two fouls were totally equal if not favored in Kobe's direction because his nose was actually broken. The only difference here is how bad it looks and who is the one delivering the foul. ROFL They're COMPLETELY different. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Artest fucking ELBOWED THE GUY TO THE HEAD when he wasn't even trying to make a fucking play for something. Like HOW DO YOU THINK THIS CASE IS THE SAME AS ANYTHING BEFORE? Not that I dont think Artest's red misting isnt worse. But I hope your not saying its apparantly better to do it as long as you disguise it as a play, because thats not really that hard to do. So yes motives are questionable in any case. Artest is just dumb as shit, or well crazy. Umm no, I was making the distinction between actually playing a physical sport and assault. This was assault. Well thats my point isnt it. You say hes making a play, but he could just be using that as a chance to hurt a player. Thats a cheap paper thin wall to hide behind imo when you hurt someone. Players know how to foul hard. Putting your hands to another persons face from behind isnt a tad bit overboard ? In an All Star game ? Think about it ..Thats my point "Oh its Wade, and he was just trying to stop Kobe." "O its Artest, hes a crazy violent mofo that wants to kill people, no play was involved." In his case people wouldnt be any less incensed even if he did it making a play, because its Ron. (while these are both probably true, Id hesitate to go nuts in either case.) Basically I'm in agreement. The only reason people are calling for the gallows for Artest is because it's Artest. If it was anyone else the "let's not go nuts" argument would have already been accepted. Apparently it's ok to go nuts here because we think the guy is nuts. You are missing the point, we do not go crazy on Artest because of what he is (atleast not everyone). We are discussing what he DID. And yes he did wanted to hit Harden once he got bumped. No one is trying to say that he wanted to hit him right from the dunk, which is what you don't seem to understand.
Actually Roggay there are some guys in here that seem to be implying that.
I wish I could have a separate thread to argue this with people that don't have predisposed hatred for Artest because it's a whole other thing with them.
The guys arguing that all LA fans condone violence are not even worth replying to.
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On April 23 2012 10:10 A-tan wrote:
From watching re-watching the scene in slow-motion, it seems that Harden intentionally went up to artest and asked for it. I'm not saying that I'm defending Artest; however, the elbow was definitely a mistake.
But... the whole scene could of happened so fast for Artest and maybe it's typical for an NBA player to show emotion after doing some crazy dunk?
Harden went to receive the inbounds pass. Seriously, this happens more than 20 times a game where players bump into each other as the team goes to inbound the ball after the other team scored.
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On April 23 2012 10:11 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 10:01 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Looms wrote:
if Artest felt that Harden was getting in his way while he ran up the court (by the way he was too busy celebrating his mediocre dunk to sprint back on defense), he could have just pushed Harden out of the way instead of throwing an elbow. the elbow is what people are making a big deal about here. I totally agree that if all of this was really a result of Artest wanting Harden out of his way a push would have been a better idea. Which to me just lends itself to the argument that he honestly didn't know Harden was there. Otherwise why resort to the elbow as a first resort? that doesn't make any sense to me. Yea to people who think Artest is a violent lunatic it does, but that's their own bias guiding their perception of the situation. ... Harden makes contact with Artest. Artest clearly knows that he is there. Once again you are trying to make sense of Ron Artest. You can't do that. Why the hell did he run into the stands in Detroit? People think Artest is a violent lunatic because he is and he has proven that time and time again. This is why we do jury screenings. You clearly would never make it on to a jury in the US because of how quickly you are to jump to the conclusions about someone's motivations. Here is the thing, I haven't made a conclusion about Ron Artest's motivation this entire time. All I have said is that he knew what he was doing. I have said multiple times that we cannot know why Ron would do this. You say this.
Why? One, because it makes no sense. And two, because Ron is not a sane person. Thats not even up for debate. He has mental problems. These are well documented facts. Trying to understand why a crazy person would do something is impossible.
And then you say this.
Contradiction much?
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On April 23 2012 10:12 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:10 Roggay wrote:On April 23 2012 10:06 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 10:02 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:33 Looms wrote:
If someone from the Thunder hit Kobe like that, the reaction from the league would be at least 3x worse. Good to see that they have normalized standards in the NBA (hey, at least its at the level of the bogus NHL suspension durations, right?) Yet when Dwayne Wade hit Kobe in the All-Star game, broke his nose and gave him a concussion I was on the "oh it was just a hard foul, no punishment deserved" team. And if I haven't demonstrated how huge of a Kobe Bryant fan I am at this point I don't know what else I need to do. Injury wise, the two fouls were totally equal if not favored in Kobe's direction because his nose was actually broken. The only difference here is how bad it looks and who is the one delivering the foul. ROFL They're COMPLETELY different. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Artest fucking ELBOWED THE GUY TO THE HEAD when he wasn't even trying to make a fucking play for something. Like HOW DO YOU THINK THIS CASE IS THE SAME AS ANYTHING BEFORE? Not that I dont think Artest's red misting isnt worse. But I hope your not saying its apparantly better to do it as long as you disguise it as a play, because thats not really that hard to do. So yes motives are questionable in any case. Artest is just dumb as shit, or well crazy. Umm no, I was making the distinction between actually playing a physical sport and assault. This was assault. Well thats my point isnt it. You say hes making a play, but he could just be using that as a chance to hurt a player. Thats a cheap paper thin wall to hide behind imo when you hurt someone. Players know how to foul hard. Putting your hands to another persons face from behind isnt a tad bit overboard ? In an All Star game ? Think about it ..Thats my point "Oh its Wade, and he was just trying to stop Kobe." "O its Artest, hes a crazy violent mofo that wants to kill people, no play was involved." In his case people wouldnt be any less incensed even if he did it making a play, because its Ron. (while these are both probably true, Id hesitate to go nuts in either case.) Basically I'm in agreement. The only reason people are calling for the gallows for Artest is because it's Artest. If it was anyone else the "let's not go nuts" argument would have already been accepted. Apparently it's ok to go nuts here because we think the guy is nuts. You are missing the point, we do not go crazy on Artest because of what he is (atleast not everyone). We are discussing what he DID. And yes he did wanted to hit Harden once he got bumped. No one is trying to say that he wanted to hit him right from the dunk, which is what you don't seem to understand. Actually Roggay there are some guys in here that seem to be implying that. I wish I could have a separate thread to argue this with people that don't have predisposed hatred for Artest because it's a whole other thing with them. The guys arguing that all LA fans condone violence are not even worth replying to.
Nah, but it's absolutely hilarious that you can actually defend something like this (and you just happen to be a huge lakers fanboy). But yeah, I mean, it's not like a history of repeated violence means anything for future incidents! The world doesn't work that way at all!
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On April 23 2012 10:04 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:01 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Looms wrote:
if Artest felt that Harden was getting in his way while he ran up the court (by the way he was too busy celebrating his mediocre dunk to sprint back on defense), he could have just pushed Harden out of the way instead of throwing an elbow. the elbow is what people are making a big deal about here. I totally agree that if all of this was really a result of Artest wanting Harden out of his way a push would have been a better idea. Which to me just lends itself to the argument that he honestly didn't know Harden was there. Otherwise why resort to the elbow as a first resort? that doesn't make any sense to me. Yea to people who think Artest is a violent lunatic it does, but that's their own bias guiding their perception of the situation. ... Harden makes contact with Artest. Artest clearly knows that he is there. Once again you are trying to make sense of Ron Artest. You can't do that. Why the hell did he run into the stands in Detroit? People think Artest is a violent lunatic because he is and he has proven that time and time again. This is why we do jury screenings. You clearly would never make it on to a jury in the US because of how quickly you are to jump to the conclusions about someone's motivations.
This isn't some everyday crime for a judge and jury. We all saw it as well as the other million of viewers. There is video proof of the elbow, in HD no less! "World Peace" was clearly lying when he said he was simply "celebrating."
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On April 23 2012 10:07 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:02 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:33 Looms wrote:
If someone from the Thunder hit Kobe like that, the reaction from the league would be at least 3x worse. Good to see that they have normalized standards in the NBA (hey, at least its at the level of the bogus NHL suspension durations, right?) Yet when Dwayne Wade hit Kobe in the All-Star game, broke his nose and gave him a concussion I was on the "oh it was just a hard foul, no punishment deserved" team. And if I haven't demonstrated how huge of a Kobe Bryant fan I am at this point I don't know what else I need to do. Injury wise, the two fouls were totally equal if not favored in Kobe's direction because his nose was actually broken. The only difference here is how bad it looks and who is the one delivering the foul. ROFL They're COMPLETELY different. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Artest fucking ELBOWED THE GUY TO THE HEAD when he wasn't even trying to make a fucking play for something. Like HOW DO YOU THINK THIS CASE IS THE SAME AS ANYTHING BEFORE? Not that I dont think Artest's red misting isnt worse. But I hope your not saying its apparantly better to do it as long as you disguise it as a play, because thats not really that hard to do. So yes motives are questionable in any case. Artest is just dumb as shit, or well crazy. Umm no, I was making the distinction between actually playing a physical sport and assault. This was assault. Well thats my point isnt it. You say hes making a play, but he could just be using that as a chance to hurt a player. Thats a cheap paper thin wall to hide behind imo when you hurt someone. Players know how to foul hard. Putting your hands to another persons face from behind isnt a tad bit overboard ? In an All Star game ? Think about it ..Thats my point "Oh its Wade, and he was just trying to stop Kobe." "O its Artest, hes a crazy violent mofo that wants to kill people, no play was involved." In his case people wouldnt be any less incensed even if he did it making a play, because its Ron. (while these are both probably true, Id hesitate to go nuts in either case.) Wade's was a hard foul but he wasn't intentionally trying to hurt kobe. When you try to wrap a guy up when they're as athletic as these guys you might hit something accidentally. From any angle I watch that wade foul I don't think anyone could say he was aiming for his face, just trying to keep him on the ground. In fact, both his hands ricocheted off the ball and ended up hitting his face. They aren't even close to the same
yea and "Ron was just in his celebration follow through and crashed his elbow into Harden, it just looks bad if you slow it down." Is what I could claim if I follow that logic. "accidentally". His history is following him here.
So its not a fair assessment. Let me stress again, I dont think this is necessarily the case, but your applying a different thought process to either situation, by reading the other guys intentions. He looked pretty genuinely sorry to me afterward. But then again people will just say "OFCOURSE HED SAY THAT." Well no.. if hes as nuts as he is, he may not have or betrayed some sarcasm..
But yeah no one actually celebrates like that tbh, buuuttt you never know. League has alot to consider. Theyll go down reasonably hard, but permabans or the like for the rest of the season.. mm I dont know.
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On April 23 2012 10:10 A-tan wrote:
From watching re-watching the scene in slow-motion, it seems that Harden intentionally went up to artest and asked for it. I'm not saying that I'm defending Artest; however, the elbow was definitely a mistake.
But... the whole scene could of happened so fast for Artest and maybe it's typical for an NBA player to show emotion after doing some crazy dunk?
Yes Harden probably did bump him intentionnally, but bumps after a basket are extremelly frequent (almost every play under the basket actually), so it is really not an excuse. And the elbow was not a mistake. You can clearly see that the whole elbow motion (which is quite wide) was triggered by the bump. He definitly knew what he was doing.
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On April 23 2012 10:06 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:02 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:33 Looms wrote:
If someone from the Thunder hit Kobe like that, the reaction from the league would be at least 3x worse. Good to see that they have normalized standards in the NBA (hey, at least its at the level of the bogus NHL suspension durations, right?) Yet when Dwayne Wade hit Kobe in the All-Star game, broke his nose and gave him a concussion I was on the "oh it was just a hard foul, no punishment deserved" team. And if I haven't demonstrated how huge of a Kobe Bryant fan I am at this point I don't know what else I need to do. Injury wise, the two fouls were totally equal if not favored in Kobe's direction because his nose was actually broken. The only difference here is how bad it looks and who is the one delivering the foul. ROFL They're COMPLETELY different. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Artest fucking ELBOWED THE GUY TO THE HEAD when he wasn't even trying to make a fucking play for something. Like HOW DO YOU THINK THIS CASE IS THE SAME AS ANYTHING BEFORE? Not that I dont think Artest's red misting isnt worse. But I hope your not saying its apparantly better to do it as long as you disguise it as a play, because thats not really that hard to do. So yes motives are questionable in any case. Artest is just dumb as shit, or well crazy. Umm no, I was making the distinction between actually playing a physical sport and assault. This was assault. Well thats my point isnt it. You say hes making a play, but he could just be using that as a chance to hurt a player. Thats a cheap paper thin wall to hide behind imo when you hurt someone. Players know how to foul hard. Putting your hands to another persons face from behind isnt a tad bit overboard ? In an All Star game ? Think about it ..Thats my point "Oh its Wade, and he was just trying to stop Kobe." "O its Artest, hes a crazy violent mofo that wants to kill people, no play was involved." In his case people wouldnt be any less incensed even if he did it making a play, because its Ron. (while these are both probably true, Id hesitate to go nuts in either case.) Basically I'm in agreement. The only reason people are calling for the gallows for Artest is because it's Artest. If it was anyone else the "let's not go nuts" argument would have already been accepted. Apparently it's ok to go nuts here because we think the guy is nuts.
We don't think he is nuts. We know it.
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On April 23 2012 10:14 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 10:10 Roggay wrote:On April 23 2012 10:06 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 10:02 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:33 Looms wrote:
If someone from the Thunder hit Kobe like that, the reaction from the league would be at least 3x worse. Good to see that they have normalized standards in the NBA (hey, at least its at the level of the bogus NHL suspension durations, right?) Yet when Dwayne Wade hit Kobe in the All-Star game, broke his nose and gave him a concussion I was on the "oh it was just a hard foul, no punishment deserved" team. And if I haven't demonstrated how huge of a Kobe Bryant fan I am at this point I don't know what else I need to do. Injury wise, the two fouls were totally equal if not favored in Kobe's direction because his nose was actually broken. The only difference here is how bad it looks and who is the one delivering the foul. ROFL They're COMPLETELY different. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Artest fucking ELBOWED THE GUY TO THE HEAD when he wasn't even trying to make a fucking play for something. Like HOW DO YOU THINK THIS CASE IS THE SAME AS ANYTHING BEFORE? Not that I dont think Artest's red misting isnt worse. But I hope your not saying its apparantly better to do it as long as you disguise it as a play, because thats not really that hard to do. So yes motives are questionable in any case. Artest is just dumb as shit, or well crazy. Umm no, I was making the distinction between actually playing a physical sport and assault. This was assault. Well thats my point isnt it. You say hes making a play, but he could just be using that as a chance to hurt a player. Thats a cheap paper thin wall to hide behind imo when you hurt someone. Players know how to foul hard. Putting your hands to another persons face from behind isnt a tad bit overboard ? In an All Star game ? Think about it ..Thats my point "Oh its Wade, and he was just trying to stop Kobe." "O its Artest, hes a crazy violent mofo that wants to kill people, no play was involved." In his case people wouldnt be any less incensed even if he did it making a play, because its Ron. (while these are both probably true, Id hesitate to go nuts in either case.) Basically I'm in agreement. The only reason people are calling for the gallows for Artest is because it's Artest. If it was anyone else the "let's not go nuts" argument would have already been accepted. Apparently it's ok to go nuts here because we think the guy is nuts. You are missing the point, we do not go crazy on Artest because of what he is (atleast not everyone). We are discussing what he DID. And yes he did wanted to hit Harden once he got bumped. No one is trying to say that he wanted to hit him right from the dunk, which is what you don't seem to understand. Actually Roggay there are some guys in here that seem to be implying that. I wish I could have a separate thread to argue this with people that don't have predisposed hatred for Artest because it's a whole other thing with them. The guys arguing that all LA fans condone violence are not even worth replying to. Nah, but it's absolutely hilarious that you can actually defend something like this (and you just happen to be a huge lakers fanboy). But yeah, I mean, it's not like a history of repeated violence means anything for future incidents! The world doesn't work that way at all!
This is exactly what I mean.
Oh he has a history of violence so CLEARLY that means that this hit against Harden was 100% intentional. Let's not take into consideration any other evidence of the event or any other testimony, he's guilty because he has a history.
Right?
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On April 23 2012 10:10 A-tan wrote:
From watching re-watching the scene in slow-motion, it seems that Harden intentionally went up to artest and asked for it. I'm not saying that I'm defending Artest; however, the elbow was definitely a mistake.
But... the whole scene could of happened so fast for Artest and maybe it's typical for an NBA player to show emotion after doing some crazy dunk?
holy shit some people dont realize that these people are supposed to be PROFESSIONAL basketball players.
this isnt the first time they have dunked on the fast break and got excited. not the first time someone has gotten in their face on the court. not the first time they got bumped and didnt like it on the way back up the court. NOT the first elbow they have ever thrown. PRO basketball players know what is okay and what is not okay on the floor.
throwing elbows at any level of competitive basketball is always discouraged due to the potential for injury. swinging your elbows back and forth after securing a rebound may have been okay in the 1970s NBA, but its not allowed anymore. an elbow to the face/head can do far more damage than someone shoving another guy in the chest, as I recommended would have been appropriate earlier. if Artest had done that there is basically a 0% chance he would have been ejected.
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On April 23 2012 10:13 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:11 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 23 2012 10:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 10:01 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Looms wrote:
if Artest felt that Harden was getting in his way while he ran up the court (by the way he was too busy celebrating his mediocre dunk to sprint back on defense), he could have just pushed Harden out of the way instead of throwing an elbow. the elbow is what people are making a big deal about here. I totally agree that if all of this was really a result of Artest wanting Harden out of his way a push would have been a better idea. Which to me just lends itself to the argument that he honestly didn't know Harden was there. Otherwise why resort to the elbow as a first resort? that doesn't make any sense to me. Yea to people who think Artest is a violent lunatic it does, but that's their own bias guiding their perception of the situation. ... Harden makes contact with Artest. Artest clearly knows that he is there. Once again you are trying to make sense of Ron Artest. You can't do that. Why the hell did he run into the stands in Detroit? People think Artest is a violent lunatic because he is and he has proven that time and time again. This is why we do jury screenings. You clearly would never make it on to a jury in the US because of how quickly you are to jump to the conclusions about someone's motivations. Here is the thing, I haven't made a conclusion about Ron Artest's motivation this entire time. All I have said is that he knew what he was doing. I have said multiple times that we cannot know why Ron would do this. You say this. Show nested quote +Why? One, because it makes no sense. And two, because Ron is not a sane person. Thats not even up for debate. He has mental problems. These are well documented facts. Trying to understand why a crazy person would do something is impossible. And then you say this. Contradiction much?
Comprehension much? Where did I make a conclusion about Ron Artest's MOTIVATION?
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On April 23 2012 10:15 [X]Ken_D wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:04 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 10:01 jmbthirteen wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Looms wrote:
if Artest felt that Harden was getting in his way while he ran up the court (by the way he was too busy celebrating his mediocre dunk to sprint back on defense), he could have just pushed Harden out of the way instead of throwing an elbow. the elbow is what people are making a big deal about here. I totally agree that if all of this was really a result of Artest wanting Harden out of his way a push would have been a better idea. Which to me just lends itself to the argument that he honestly didn't know Harden was there. Otherwise why resort to the elbow as a first resort? that doesn't make any sense to me. Yea to people who think Artest is a violent lunatic it does, but that's their own bias guiding their perception of the situation. ... Harden makes contact with Artest. Artest clearly knows that he is there. Once again you are trying to make sense of Ron Artest. You can't do that. Why the hell did he run into the stands in Detroit? People think Artest is a violent lunatic because he is and he has proven that time and time again. This is why we do jury screenings. You clearly would never make it on to a jury in the US because of how quickly you are to jump to the conclusions about someone's motivations. This isn't some everyday crime for a judge and jury. We all saw it as well as the other million of viewers. There is video proof of the elbow, in HD no less! "World Peace" was clearly lying when he said he was simply "celebrating."
We'll see if the NBA comes to the same conclusion.
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On April 23 2012 10:16 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 10:14 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 10:12 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 10:10 Roggay wrote:On April 23 2012 10:06 Vindicare605 wrote:On April 23 2012 10:02 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:56 Rebs wrote:On April 23 2012 09:51 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 23 2012 09:35 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
Yet when Dwayne Wade hit Kobe in the All-Star game, broke his nose and gave him a concussion I was on the "oh it was just a hard foul, no punishment deserved" team.
And if I haven't demonstrated how huge of a Kobe Bryant fan I am at this point I don't know what else I need to do.
Injury wise, the two fouls were totally equal if not favored in Kobe's direction because his nose was actually broken.
The only difference here is how bad it looks and who is the one delivering the foul. ROFL They're COMPLETELY different. Seriously, how do you not understand this? Artest fucking ELBOWED THE GUY TO THE HEAD when he wasn't even trying to make a fucking play for something. Like HOW DO YOU THINK THIS CASE IS THE SAME AS ANYTHING BEFORE? Not that I dont think Artest's red misting isnt worse. But I hope your not saying its apparantly better to do it as long as you disguise it as a play, because thats not really that hard to do. So yes motives are questionable in any case. Artest is just dumb as shit, or well crazy. Umm no, I was making the distinction between actually playing a physical sport and assault. This was assault. Well thats my point isnt it. You say hes making a play, but he could just be using that as a chance to hurt a player. Thats a cheap paper thin wall to hide behind imo when you hurt someone. Players know how to foul hard. Putting your hands to another persons face from behind isnt a tad bit overboard ? In an All Star game ? Think about it ..Thats my point "Oh its Wade, and he was just trying to stop Kobe." "O its Artest, hes a crazy violent mofo that wants to kill people, no play was involved." In his case people wouldnt be any less incensed even if he did it making a play, because its Ron. (while these are both probably true, Id hesitate to go nuts in either case.) Basically I'm in agreement. The only reason people are calling for the gallows for Artest is because it's Artest. If it was anyone else the "let's not go nuts" argument would have already been accepted. Apparently it's ok to go nuts here because we think the guy is nuts. You are missing the point, we do not go crazy on Artest because of what he is (atleast not everyone). We are discussing what he DID. And yes he did wanted to hit Harden once he got bumped. No one is trying to say that he wanted to hit him right from the dunk, which is what you don't seem to understand. Actually Roggay there are some guys in here that seem to be implying that. I wish I could have a separate thread to argue this with people that don't have predisposed hatred for Artest because it's a whole other thing with them. The guys arguing that all LA fans condone violence are not even worth replying to. Nah, but it's absolutely hilarious that you can actually defend something like this (and you just happen to be a huge lakers fanboy). But yeah, I mean, it's not like a history of repeated violence means anything for future incidents! The world doesn't work that way at all! This is exactly what I mean. Oh he has a history of violence so CLEARLY that means that this hit against Harden was 100% intentional. Let's not take into consideration any other evidence of the event or any other testimony, he's guilty because he has a history. Right?
You're pretty much the only one to actually think that was an unintentional elbow. He fucking bumped into him, knew exactly where his head was, AND EVEN AIMED HIGHER. Please show me a SINGLE video of someone celebrating by swinging their elbows past shoulder height and I'd be inclined to believe you.
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EPT
