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On March 10 2011 14:57 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 08:32 Judicator wrote:On March 10 2011 07:44 RowdierBob wrote:On March 10 2011 03:34 Ace wrote:
I could have sworn not too long ago we talked about Bosh's defense. If you think he's one of the worst PFs defensively do you have any numbers and consistent proof? I've got two eyes and he isn't playing well. Like you said, he's been solid but not spectacular. Obviously it has something to do with the system Spoelstra is using, but when I watch the Heat, Bosh's impact is minimal. His post game has all but disappeared and maybe we're watching different games, but his defense to me is sub-par. But that's all that's realistically expected of him. Why would you play the post with Lebron and Wade on your team? His defense is wishy-washy, not great not horrific either. I will say that his play on either ends is extremely streaky though, would be interesting to see his performance relative to the other two's and how they affect his play. To spread the floor better! If they're going to use him in such a capacity, why bother signing him on for so much? I could understand if he was a beast at the defensive end who really controlled the paint, but he isn't that type of player. He's pretty much a spot-up 18 foot shooter on that team and nothing else. His rebounding and defense are average at best. What does Bosh really offer the current Heat team? For the money they're paying him, the Heat could have easily bought 2 or 3 decent players to do a similar job IMO. Bosh obviously has ability, but I think the Heat need to reevaluate the role he plays in the team, because they aren't getting best value from him.
Bosh isn't a spot up shooter - that's just the way he's playing this year. Like I said early on in the year Bosh was a finesse PF that tip toed around the paint and just blew by his man. He has he footwork and the range so he was impossible to guard.
He was also an above average rebounder, I think he ranked top 5 or so among Power Forwards last year.
Miami runs the offense through Bosh. Without Bosh all they have is Wade and Lebron handling the ball with dangerous decisions of passing it into the post to Haslem/Anthony/Dampier and flirting with a catastrophe. The fact that Bosh can play on the elbow also makes it tougher for defenses to zone in on Miami's slashers. I don't know where you think the Heat would find 2-3 players to "do what Bosh does" because basketball doesn't work like that.
On March 10 2011 15:08 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 13:09 slyboogie wrote:
Real quick on the Clippers, I want you guys to think about this:
Mo Williams, EJ, ?????, Blake Griffin, Chris Kaman with a bench of DeAndre Jordan, Ryan Gomes, Randy Foye, Al-Farouq Aminu and Eric Bledsoe? And people say that Lebron should have joined the Bulls? This team is a small forward (and a new owner) short of a deep deep playoffs run. GAHH! It's so hard to be a fan. Those players don't fit well with Lebron, particularly except Griffin. The fact is that unless Lebron changes his game he is both the best player in the league, and the hardest to build a good team around. This is the of-overlooked secret behind the Cav's collapse: The team was designed perfectly around Lebron's talents. The perfect team for Lebron would look something like: PG: Steph Curry SG: Ray Allen PF: Kevin Love C: Joakim Noah. Now obviously a team that good is impossible to make, but the theme is: Great outside shooters + energy guys on the interior.
Interesting line up. But why would you ask to have Blake Griffin with Lebron when you could have Eric Gordon?
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On March 10 2011 08:32 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 07:44 RowdierBob wrote:On March 10 2011 03:34 Ace wrote:
I could have sworn not too long ago we talked about Bosh's defense. If you think he's one of the worst PFs defensively do you have any numbers and consistent proof? I've got two eyes and he isn't playing well. Like you said, he's been solid but not spectacular. Obviously it has something to do with the system Spoelstra is using, but when I watch the Heat, Bosh's impact is minimal. His post game has all but disappeared and maybe we're watching different games, but his defense to me is sub-par. But that's all that's realistically expected of him. Why would you play the post with Lebron and Wade on your team?
Uhhhhhhhh. This dude was given a MAX CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!!
I think a bit more was expected.
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On March 10 2011 14:57 RowdierBob wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 08:32 Judicator wrote:On March 10 2011 07:44 RowdierBob wrote:On March 10 2011 03:34 Ace wrote:
I could have sworn not too long ago we talked about Bosh's defense. If you think he's one of the worst PFs defensively do you have any numbers and consistent proof? I've got two eyes and he isn't playing well. Like you said, he's been solid but not spectacular. Obviously it has something to do with the system Spoelstra is using, but when I watch the Heat, Bosh's impact is minimal. His post game has all but disappeared and maybe we're watching different games, but his defense to me is sub-par. But that's all that's realistically expected of him. Why would you play the post with Lebron and Wade on your team? His defense is wishy-washy, not great not horrific either. I will say that his play on either ends is extremely streaky though, would be interesting to see his performance relative to the other two's and how they affect his play. To spread the floor better! If they're going to use him in such a capacity, why bother signing him on for so much? I could understand if he was a beast at the defensive end who really controlled the paint, but he isn't that type of player. He's pretty much a spot-up 18 foot shooter on that team and nothing else. His rebounding and defense are average at best. What does Bosh really offer the current Heat team? For the money they're paying him, the Heat could have easily bought 2 or 3 decent players to do a similar job IMO. Bosh obviously has ability, but I think the Heat need to reevaluate the role he plays in the team, because they aren't getting best value from him.
Well, do you take a Lebron or Wade drive and dish or score do you go with the Bosh post-play? He isn't a traditional post player and he'll never be, so I'll take the former. Honestly though, like others have said, Haslem's injury and Millers lackluster season is whats killing this team to be honest.
As for the decision to sign him, he's still a top power forward or center and he commanded that much from any team. The problem is that it's hard to say that the Heat could have gotten someone better or better role players for the team in place of Bosh. Let's say you minus Bosh, then who would you add? I would say almost all of the role player acquisitions pre-season aren't panning out as well as the teams thought they would.
On March 10 2011 15:17 Zorkmid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 08:32 Judicator wrote:On March 10 2011 07:44 RowdierBob wrote:On March 10 2011 03:34 Ace wrote:
I could have sworn not too long ago we talked about Bosh's defense. If you think he's one of the worst PFs defensively do you have any numbers and consistent proof? I've got two eyes and he isn't playing well. Like you said, he's been solid but not spectacular. Obviously it has something to do with the system Spoelstra is using, but when I watch the Heat, Bosh's impact is minimal. His post game has all but disappeared and maybe we're watching different games, but his defense to me is sub-par. But that's all that's realistically expected of him. Why would you play the post with Lebron and Wade on your team? Uhhhhhhhh. This dude was given a MAX CONTRACT!!!!!!!!!! I think a bit more was expected.
Joe Johnson was given a max contract, and he really wasn't/isn't that good, why aren't people on his nuts? I think you honestly bought into the hype of Miami instead of being clear-minding when considering realities.
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On March 10 2011 15:15 Ace wrote:
Interesting line up. But why would you ask to have Blake Griffin with Lebron when you could have Eric Gordon?
Gordon is a decent fit with Lebron, maybe I just can't get over how perfect he would be for the Bulls. (Gordon)
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Just for kicks if you take out Bosh then people would be complaining that Miami didn't sign him and should have gotten a low post player. Then they'd point out that Boston killed Lebron and Wade last year because they had no low post assistance so "signing Bosh should have been a duh move".
Then if Miami signed Amar'e or Boozer people would complain they should have gotten a better defender - oh my god why didn't they sign Chris Bosh!!! He has a better defensive rating this year than he did all throughout his career except his rookie year! OMG HOW COULD THEY HAVE BEEN SO DUMB!
On March 10 2011 15:23 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 15:15 Ace wrote:
Interesting line up. But why would you ask to have Blake Griffin with Lebron when you could have Eric Gordon? Gordon is a decent fit with Lebron, maybe I just can't get over how perfect he would be for the Bulls. (Gordon)
That would be pretty unfair for everyone in the league to deal with that. Another good wing defender, monster 3 point shooter (last year and now getting back into it this year) + the dude is a playmaker.
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On March 10 2011 15:25 Ace wrote:Just for kicks if you take out Bosh then people would be complaining that Miami didn't sign him and should have gotten a low post player. Then they'd point out that Boston killed Lebron and Wade last year because they had no low post assistance so "signing Bosh should have been a duh move". Then if Miami signed Amar'e or Boozer people would complain they should have gotten a better defender - oh my god why didn't they sign Chris Bosh!!! He has a better defensive rating this year than he did all throughout his career except his rookie year! OMG HOW COULD THEY HAVE BEEN SO DUMB! Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 15:23 cLutZ wrote:On March 10 2011 15:15 Ace wrote:
Interesting line up. But why would you ask to have Blake Griffin with Lebron when you could have Eric Gordon? Gordon is a decent fit with Lebron, maybe I just can't get over how perfect he would be for the Bulls. (Gordon) That would be pretty unfair for everyone in the league to deal with that. Another good wing defender, monster 3 point shooter (last year and now getting back into it this year) + the dude is a playmaker.
Yea, but I did it on the ESPN trade machine like 50x, and then hoped the Clippers were dumb enough to accept Asik for Gordon!
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United States4471 Posts
On March 10 2011 08:22 Manifesto7 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 03:49 XaI)CyRiC wrote:
Miami is still a great team, but they have issues which many foresaw coming in. Most of those people just forgot those issues when the Heat were winning, and are now acting all surprised that they're popping up now. These expectations may have been sown prior to the season when Miami held it's victory parade and James casually mentioned he would win a double handful of rings. When ESPN makes a new site for a team, it isn't because they are building for the future.
The Heat's self-promotion and self-aggrandizement in the preseason was definitely excessive and set them up to be hated by the rest of the league. ESPN's (and all sports media really) excessive coverage and hyping of the Heat did more of the same. However, those acts didn't change people's expectations or doubts regarding the Heat. Those who thought they would make it to the finals in the first year and possibly even win a championship still thought the same after all of it. Those who had doubts about the Heat as contenders for the reasons I listed above still held them after all of it, and probably held onto them even more tightly for that "I told you so" moment. Those doubts/concerns didn't go away simply because the hype around the Heat grew, particularly since the doubters were typically those who knew more about the game.
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On March 10 2011 15:08 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 13:09 slyboogie wrote:
Real quick on the Clippers, I want you guys to think about this:
Mo Williams, EJ, ?????, Blake Griffin, Chris Kaman with a bench of DeAndre Jordan, Ryan Gomes, Randy Foye, Al-Farouq Aminu and Eric Bledsoe? And people say that Lebron should have joined the Bulls? This team is a small forward (and a new owner) short of a deep deep playoffs run. GAHH! It's so hard to be a fan. Those players don't fit well with Lebron, particularly except Griffin. The fact is that unless Lebron changes his game he is both the best player in the league, and the hardest to build a good team around. This is the of-overlooked secret behind the Cav's collapse: The team was designed perfectly around Lebron's talents. The perfect team for Lebron would look something like: PG: Steph Curry SG: Ray Allen PF: Kevin Love C: Joakim Noah. Now obviously a team that good is impossible to make, but the theme is: Great outside shooters + energy guys on the interior.
That isn't an actual team though? You mentioned that the Bulls were a perfect fit? I don't really see where this idea comes from. Derrick Rose basically plays like Lebron - he's just a smaller person. They both need the ball in their hands to be most effective. EJ can spot up, drive and has great range. The Clippers were the best NBA team for Lebron.
EDIT: Not to take away from EJ's playmaking skills, that guy can create - even without elite ball handling.
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United States4471 Posts
On March 10 2011 15:08 cLutZ wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 13:09 slyboogie wrote:
Real quick on the Clippers, I want you guys to think about this:
Mo Williams, EJ, ?????, Blake Griffin, Chris Kaman with a bench of DeAndre Jordan, Ryan Gomes, Randy Foye, Al-Farouq Aminu and Eric Bledsoe? And people say that Lebron should have joined the Bulls? This team is a small forward (and a new owner) short of a deep deep playoffs run. GAHH! It's so hard to be a fan. Those players don't fit well with Lebron, particularly except Griffin. The fact is that unless Lebron changes his game he is both the best player in the league, and the hardest to build a good team around. This is the of-overlooked secret behind the Cav's collapse: The team was designed perfectly around Lebron's talents. The perfect team for Lebron would look something like: PG: Steph Curry SG: Ray Allen PF: Kevin Love C: Joakim Noah. Now obviously a team that good is impossible to make, but the theme is: Great outside shooters + energy guys on the interior.
I actually think a lineup of MoWill, Gordon, Lebron, Griffin and Jordan (he fits better with that group than Kaman does, and Kaman works great coming off the bench) would be significantly better than any Cavs roster Lebron ever played with, and definitely be better top-to-bottom than what the Heat have now if you consider that most of the Clippers players are still scratching the surface of what they can do.
I think MoWill is a great PG to put with Lebron because he can play off the ball like a SG and shoots 3s so well, yet still create offense for himself and others when Lebron is out. Gordon is another great 3pt shooter who could spread the floor and, like MoWill he can create offense for himself and others. Both of them are solid defenders (Gordon moreso I believe), are great FT shooters (important for closing games and the playoffs where points off FTs can be so crucial), play hard and are good character guys.
Blake is better than pretty much any player that Lebron has ever played with, and would give him his first true Allstar teammate to play alongside. Having two well-rounded, ridiculous athletes who both command double-teams like Lebron and Griffin paired up in the frontcourt would be insane. I firmly believe that Griffin will become a very dangerous halfcourt offensive post player in the next few seasons, which would complement Lebron by giving him someone to dump the ball down to when things slow down. Griffin has also already displayed a mid-range jumper a la Duncan and Amare, which would further allow him to complement Lebron's game. Plus, Griffin is a great passer, so you'd have both Lebron and him hitting open cutters and hitting each other when defenses collapse on them. Toss in DeAndre, who is turning into an elite defender, shotblocker and finisher around the rim, and you've got yourself a very balanced, well-rounded starting five.
The bench of Kaman, Foye, Bledsoe, Gomes, and Aminu is also a very solid second unit with guys who can play multiple positions (which is great for bench players). At the least, it'd be as good as any bench that Lebron has ever had (or has).
Such a roster would definitely not be nearly as equipped to start winning now as a team with Wade and Bosh on it, but would be downright scary in the next few seasons while an opponent no one would want to meet in the playoffs. Just look at how the Clippers have played against the top teams this season already without Lebron and Blake playing in his first season, and think about the possibilities.
As for the Curry, Ray, Love and Noah lineup, I think you'd have major problems defensively. Curry is small and skinny, Ray is getting along in years, and Love is a poor defender from every article I've read. Lebron and Noah alone wouldn't be able to turn that lineup into a solid defensive unit, which the proposed Clippers lineup would be. If I were to make a viable dream lineup for Lebron, it'd be Paul (crazy how he's improved his 3pt shooting), an affordable SG who can shoot 3s and defend like Afflalo or Landry Fields, Aldridge (more polished and win-now than Griffin with great range, post offense, and defense), and some affordable defensive 7-footer with good hands who can finish around the basket like DeAndre, Chandler, or Varejao.
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When Lebron said "money isn't important", I decided last year the Orlando Magic would be the best team for Lebron. Although their PF situation is kind of crappy now.
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Actually part of the Clippers problem is that they aren't a good defensive team at all. With so many young players and afaik no super defensive assistant coach with a voice it's to be expected.
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On March 10 2011 07:26 Judicator wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 04:06 Zorkmid wrote:On March 10 2011 03:34 Ace wrote:
I could have sworn not too long ago we talked about Bosh's defense. If you think he's one of the worst PFs defensively do you have any numbers and consistent proof? First off, you're the one calling him "one of the best Power Forwards in the game on both sides of the ball" so the burden of proof lies just as heavily on you as it does me. Secondly, individual defensive stats are foggy at best, you can't simply use the offensive stats of the player that they're guarding, because of the liquid nature of a basketball game, double teams, switches, leaving a man to come over and help etc. There are no real numbers or c onsistent proof that I can use to prove my argument against your point, nor are there any that you can use to prove your claim that he's among the best defensively. Any unfalsifiable argument is a weak one. In my above post, I cited 2 specific examples from 2 minutes of a game I watched. He left Brandon Roy alone for an easy two and got eaten alive by Alridge twice in the post. So instead of demanding numbers and consistent proof that he's a good defensive player, I'll ask that you provide examples of some good defensive plays he has made, or to try and name any additional starting power forwards that you think are better defensively. Because good defensive players never get exposed by great offensive players... Not trying to defend Bosh, but you gotta come up with something better than 2 examples from 2 minutes of game footage to declare your statement as universal truth. Shit I can drop like 5 moments in late close games deep in the playoffs for Kobe where he was just god awful in his defensive execution, but that must mean he's a horrible defender by your same logic. In other words, present a larger sample size and a convincing argument rather than some paper thin I-saw-it-this-one-time evidence. Short of Ace repeating what was already discussed, maybe you can use the search function on this website so we don't repeat what was already discussed.
Alright, I remember that there was a stats wizard on a Toronto Raptors message board that did all sorts of Project Defensive Score Sheet (PDSS) statistics.
These are metrics developed by Dean Oliver, I won't go into details here about what PDSS is, but if you're interested you can find his methods published in a a book called "Basketball on Paper".
Anyway, I have league-wide PDSS data the for 2009-10 season. Based on the data from 70 games that Chris Bosh started and over 7300 defensive possessions, he was responsible for more points against his team than any other player on the 09-10 Toronto Raptors, who were one of the all-time worst defensive teams in the history of the NBA.
I'd be glad to share this PDSS data with anyone interested.
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On March 10 2011 16:05 slyboogie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 15:08 cLutZ wrote:On March 10 2011 13:09 slyboogie wrote:
Real quick on the Clippers, I want you guys to think about this:
Mo Williams, EJ, ?????, Blake Griffin, Chris Kaman with a bench of DeAndre Jordan, Ryan Gomes, Randy Foye, Al-Farouq Aminu and Eric Bledsoe? And people say that Lebron should have joined the Bulls? This team is a small forward (and a new owner) short of a deep deep playoffs run. GAHH! It's so hard to be a fan. Those players don't fit well with Lebron, particularly except Griffin. The fact is that unless Lebron changes his game he is both the best player in the league, and the hardest to build a good team around. This is the of-overlooked secret behind the Cav's collapse: The team was designed perfectly around Lebron's talents. The perfect team for Lebron would look something like: PG: Steph Curry SG: Ray Allen PF: Kevin Love C: Joakim Noah. Now obviously a team that good is impossible to make, but the theme is: Great outside shooters + energy guys on the interior. That isn't an actual team though? You mentioned that the Bulls were a perfect fit? I don't really see where this idea comes from. Derrick Rose basically plays like Lebron - he's just a smaller person. They both need the ball in their hands to be most effective. EJ can spot up, drive and has great range. The Clippers were the best NBA team for Lebron. EDIT: Not to take away from EJ's playmaking skills, that guy can create - even without elite ball handling.
No, I said Eric Gordon is a perfect fit for the Bulls. My point is that there is NO perfect team for Lebron because he is such a bizzaro-world player.
On March 10 2011 16:24 XaI)CyRiC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 15:08 cLutZ wrote:On March 10 2011 13:09 slyboogie wrote:
Real quick on the Clippers, I want you guys to think about this:
Mo Williams, EJ, ?????, Blake Griffin, Chris Kaman with a bench of DeAndre Jordan, Ryan Gomes, Randy Foye, Al-Farouq Aminu and Eric Bledsoe? And people say that Lebron should have joined the Bulls? This team is a small forward (and a new owner) short of a deep deep playoffs run. GAHH! It's so hard to be a fan. Those players don't fit well with Lebron, particularly except Griffin. The fact is that unless Lebron changes his game he is both the best player in the league, and the hardest to build a good team around. This is the of-overlooked secret behind the Cav's collapse: The team was designed perfectly around Lebron's talents. The perfect team for Lebron would look something like: PG: Steph Curry SG: Ray Allen PF: Kevin Love C: Joakim Noah. Now obviously a team that good is impossible to make, but the theme is: Great outside shooters + energy guys on the interior. I actually think a lineup of MoWill, Gordon, Lebron, Griffin and Jordan (he fits better with that group than Kaman does, and Kaman works great coming off the bench) would be significantly better than any Cavs roster Lebron ever played with, and definitely be better top-to-bottom than what the Heat have now if you consider that most of the Clippers players are still scratching the surface of what they can do. I think MoWill is a great PG to put with Lebron because he can play off the ball like a SG and shoots 3s so well, yet still create offense for himself and others when Lebron is out. Gordon is another great 3pt shooter who could spread the floor and, like MoWill he can create offense for himself and others. Both of them are solid defenders (Gordon moreso I believe), are great FT shooters (important for closing games and the playoffs where points off FTs can be so crucial), play hard and are good character guys. Blake is better than pretty much any player that Lebron has ever played with, and would give him his first true Allstar teammate to play alongside. Having two well-rounded, ridiculous athletes who both command double-teams like Lebron and Griffin paired up in the frontcourt would be insane. I firmly believe that Griffin will become a very dangerous halfcourt offensive post player in the next few seasons, which would complement Lebron by giving him someone to dump the ball down to when things slow down. Griffin has also already displayed a mid-range jumper a la Duncan and Amare, which would further allow him to complement Lebron's game. Plus, Griffin is a great passer, so you'd have both Lebron and him hitting open cutters and hitting each other when defenses collapse on them. Toss in DeAndre, who is turning into an elite defender, shotblocker and finisher around the rim, and you've got yourself a very balanced, well-rounded starting five. The bench of Kaman, Foye, Bledsoe, Gomes, and Aminu is also a very solid second unit with guys who can play multiple positions (which is great for bench players). At the least, it'd be as good as any bench that Lebron has ever had (or has). Such a roster would definitely not be nearly as equipped to start winning now as a team with Wade and Bosh on it, but would be downright scary in the next few seasons while an opponent no one would want to meet in the playoffs. Just look at how the Clippers have played against the top teams this season already without Lebron and Blake playing in his first season, and think about the possibilities. As for the Curry, Ray, Love and Noah lineup, I think you'd have major problems defensively. Curry is small and skinny, Ray is getting along in years, and Love is a poor defender from every article I've read. Lebron and Noah alone wouldn't be able to turn that lineup into a solid defensive unit, which the proposed Clippers lineup would be. If I were to make a viable dream lineup for Lebron, it'd be Paul (crazy how he's improved his 3pt shooting), an affordable SG who can shoot 3s and defend like Afflalo or Landry Fields, Aldridge (more polished and win-now than Griffin with great range, post offense, and defense), and some affordable defensive 7-footer with good hands who can finish around the basket like DeAndre, Chandler, or Varejao.
Paul is a good player, but he still needs the ball to maximize his effectiveness. Perhaps Ray Allen is a bit slow on defense, but he is still high quality, and the best 3-point-shooter ever, which is exactly what Lebron needs on his team. 2008 Ray Allen would be perfect for the team for sure. And you could replace Love with Varejao or some other high-energy defensive player (maybe even Odom) would work very well. You can't stack the middle with guys like Dwight Howard though, which was always Cleveland's problem, getting guys like Shaq, who ruined Lebron's game.
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Heat vs Lakers tonight! Any predictions anyone?
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On March 11 2011 05:38 MassHysteria wrote:
Heat vs Lakers tonight! Any predictions anyone?
Honestly, I think the Heat will jump on the Lakers via Lebron and Kobe will shoot his team out of this one despite quality efforts from the role players.
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Depends if Bynum grabs 17 boards in 26 minutes again or not.
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I think at this point, anything but a Laker win will be an upset x.x
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Haha true holcan...its like going out on a limb if we say the Heat will win it.
On March 11 2011 05:53 SK.Testie wrote:
Depends if Bynum grabs 17 boards in 26 minutes again or not.
I agree Testie, if Bynum does that plus 3 blocks I think it would be hard for the Heat to win. But also if the Heat come out blazing and motivated I think they might just take it.
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Miami's big 3 need to combine for 75 for them to win, in other words, Bosh can't shrivel up and hide against Gasol and Odom.
Him playing some defense would help too.
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EPT
