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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On April 29 2019 23:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 23:51 Logo wrote:On April 29 2019 23:47 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2019 23:44 Aocowns wrote:On April 29 2019 23:40 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2019 23:28 Velr wrote:
Yeah, it's much better to just suicide charge ~1/3 of your army because thats easier to show on television.
They could just have the Unsullied advance and the Dothraki Flank? Then disaster happens anyway and your basically at the same point?
This is clearly a minor issue but one that could have been avoided? Most battles in GoT have been utterly retarded, so expecting more was pretty dilusional from the get go. Pretty much. Shooting scenes of combat on horses is one of the most dangerous things they can do on TV or movies. If you watch real world horse riding on TV, you will notice that everyone had helmets on and is fully clothed. They are also riding with both hands. There is only so much they can do and make it look good in any TV show or movie. I suppose i should take back my spoilered reply if you change your stance from trying to defend the strategy to defending the practical filming of it But its not like something much better than this hasnt been done before. Unless my nostalgia glasses are fucking with me, rohans charge at the battle of pelenor fields was very impressive and i doubt that it couldn't have been facilitated within the shows budget or production capabilities to do something more in that style That specific charge into battle doesn’t show a lot of combat. It is just them riding over the orks on mass and the orks retreating. The big fight is against CGI elephants where they can shoot a single rider doing cool stuff and then fill in the big CGI monster around it. What you remember from that movie is the charge, not the fight itself. Not to mention the Lord of the Rings movies (Two Towers at least) had nearly x10 the budget of the episode. In this episode they had to make choices about what they wanted to feature and the cavalry charge being resolved through seeing the lights go out was a way to deal with the horse men. Having the cavalry flank the army when they engaged the unsullied would have been another way, but I think it would have been difficult convey since we see so few overhead shots of the battle lines.
Yeah for sure, I am in total agreement with you I think. It's 'dumb' to have them charge, but they did it in a way that looked cool, fit what they could do, and isn't even out of character for the calvary in question. I don't really have a problem with it other than maybe letting it be part of the Dothraki recklessness rather than a planned charge.
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On April 29 2019 23:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 23:51 Logo wrote:On April 29 2019 23:47 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2019 23:44 Aocowns wrote:On April 29 2019 23:40 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2019 23:28 Velr wrote:
Yeah, it's much better to just suicide charge ~1/3 of your army because thats easier to show on television.
They could just have the Unsullied advance and the Dothraki Flank? Then disaster happens anyway and your basically at the same point?
This is clearly a minor issue but one that could have been avoided? Most battles in GoT have been utterly retarded, so expecting more was pretty dilusional from the get go. Pretty much. Shooting scenes of combat on horses is one of the most dangerous things they can do on TV or movies. If you watch real world horse riding on TV, you will notice that everyone had helmets on and is fully clothed. They are also riding with both hands. There is only so much they can do and make it look good in any TV show or movie. I suppose i should take back my spoilered reply if you change your stance from trying to defend the strategy to defending the practical filming of it But its not like something much better than this hasnt been done before. Unless my nostalgia glasses are fucking with me, rohans charge at the battle of pelenor fields was very impressive and i doubt that it couldn't have been facilitated within the shows budget or production capabilities to do something more in that style That specific charge into battle doesn’t show a lot of combat. It is just them riding over the orks on mass and the orks retreating. The big fight is against CGI elephants where they can shoot a single rider doing cool stuff and then fill in the big CGI monster around it. What you remember from that movie is the charge, not the fight itself. Not to mention the Lord of the Rings movies (Two Towers at least) had nearly x10 the budget of the episode. In this episode they had to make choices about what they wanted to feature and the cavalry charge being resolved through seeing the lights go out was a way to deal with the horse men. Having the cavalry flank the army when they engaged the unsullied would have been another way, but I think it would have been difficult convey since we see so few overhead shots of the battle lines.
Mm I suppose thats relative, I didn't count but i distinctly remember multiple shots of unsullied formations from above lowering their spears, being prepared to withstand charges, or when they were slowly marching backwards to keep the retreat under control. Or when they were showing the kind of ordered rows and columns of allied living peoples versus the chaotic hordes of undead. Those shots were very cool, and they made it very clear which side was which and what was going on through overhead shots.
I feel like a lot of budget was wasted on superflous scenes, for example having all the heroes separately having a hero moment but being overrun, only to survive and being in another hopeless heroic last stand scene in a slightly different location. I feel like i watched undead pile on top of sam like 3 times, and tormund got stabbed and surrounded and looked like he was set up for death like 3x times as well. The Jon vs undead dragon scene also had a couple different shots that were pretty overlapping and could have been cut to make the first third of the episode less lackluster.
I'll probably revisit this in a couple years and be able to appreciate it for the empty action porn it is, but right now im just annoyed with all the imo wasted potential
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But by letting them charge like that they just look like bums. An offscreen battle report of them holding some side of the battlefield but being overrun with some of the survivors running inside the gate would be better than this.
But then they couldn't be used to plant a Jorah-ex-Machina somewhere deep on the battlefield to save a crashed Dany I guess
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On April 30 2019 00:19 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
But by letting them charge like that they just look like bums. An offscreen battle report of them holding some side of the battlefield but being overrun with some of the survivors running inside the gate would be better than this.
But then they couldn't be used to plant a Jorah-ex-Machina somewhere deep on the battlefield to save a crashed Dany I guess
There's not really a relation between Jorah's charge and his appearing by Dany. He makes it back inside the keep during the retreat just like everyone else, but then somehow gets out of the keep to be by Dany.
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On April 30 2019 00:19 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
But by letting them charge like that they just look like bums. An offscreen battle report of them holding some side of the battlefield but being overrun with some of the survivors running inside the gate would be better than this.
But then they couldn't be used to plant a Jorah-ex-Machina somewhere deep on the battlefield to save a crashed Dany I guess
No because it isn't visual, this scene looked great, the fires going out one after the other, the atmosphere built through that is worth it. I completely agree that it probably shouldn't have been the plan though, but a scene like this in itself is great, the setup could have been better though.
Honestly i think for the narrative this is one of the smaller problems, though it definitely points towards a common problem, extremely convenient and lazy writing :/
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On the charge point, I could have seen it being a little better if we had maybe gotten some explanation or mention during the war room in the last two episodes.
Maybe let it be part of Sansa's scheming to want to manipulate things so that Dany's forces take the brunt of the losses. Shows again that she's still committed to playing the Game even with the impending doom. Then when the charge fails so spectacularly, you could get a nice shot of Sansa on the wall realising the real stakes, and maybe regretting the earlier scheming.
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On April 30 2019 00:19 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
But by letting them charge like that they just look like bums. An offscreen battle report of them holding some side of the battlefield but being overrun with some of the survivors running inside the gate would be better than this.
But then they couldn't be used to plant a Jorah-ex-Machina somewhere deep on the battlefield to save a crashed Dany I guess
jorah saving dany didnt have anything to do with the dothraki. Jorah charged with the dothraki on the frontline, survived and came back and fought on foot outside the wall, retreated inside the wall and fought, then charged back outside the wall on foot through x hundred meters to save the downed queen
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On April 29 2019 23:43 NarutO wrote:
My question is - who do you guys think will die? I just can't see the show ending before maybe 4 to 5 main cast characters die. That would just not be Martin and how he portraits the world.
Very likely:
- Cersei
- Jamie
- Bronn
- Euron
- Greyworm (I still can't believe he survived Winterfell...)
- Sandor
- Gregor
Villains and people who should be wrapping up their arcs pretty soon. The Greyworm x Missandei situation just screams tragedy waiting to happen. Also I love Bronn, but the guy is a total cockroach. He should've died like 2 seasons ago.
Mild chance:
- Tyrion
- Missandei
- Davos
Conflicted about Tyrion. Not sure if they're going for total extinction of Lannister house or the irony of Tyrion getting it all in the end because everyone else is dead. For Missandei see above on Grey Worm, she's just a tad less likely as a non-combatant. Davos just because he's skated death way too many times and Melisandre is dead so it feels like his arc should be wrapping up.
Reaching:
- Dany
- Sansa
If this were the GoT of old I'd feel more confident in these two biting it. They've been sowing the seeds of discontent with Dany for awhile now and Sansa just strikes me as another Cersei in the making. But with how GoT has been for the past two seasons, it might all just be misdirection and everything works out in the end. Too much fanservice not enough tragedy.
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Also worth noting is basically the Dothraki had to all die. Their entire culture is untenable to any resolution of the plot and we can believe they'll behave for the dragon queen for awhile, but eventually their existence just doesn't work in Westeroes. They could have made it to the battle with Cersei, but there's just no path to existence for them going forward. At least with the wildlings they can hold the north or go back north of the wall if they want, but what are you going to do with the Dothraki? Their entire existence is running around on horses pillaging; they don't even have the self sufficiency of the iron islands (fishing).
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My guess was that they will lose wintefell and run away and that night king will be the main treat until almost the end, I guess I overestimated his importance to the show being something more than just the Dragon Queen's armies nerf so she can become the underdog again. However, if I have to be objective, the Night King was never really the main idea of the show, but the war for the Iron Throne, so this outcome should not really be that surprising
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On April 30 2019 00:34 Logo wrote:
Also worth noting is basically the Dothraki had to all die. Their entire culture is untenable to any resolution of the plot and we can believe they'll behave for the dragon queen for awhile, but eventually their existence just doesn't work in Westeroes. They could have made it to the battle with Cersei, but there's just no path to existence for them going forward. At least with the wildlings they can hold the north or go back north of the wall if they want, but what are you going to do with the Dothraki? Their entire existence is running around on horses pillaging; they don't even have the self sufficiency of the iron islands (fishing).
True as I mentioned above the whole Night King story was in the show just to nerf Dany's alliance apparently. However, they could;ve saved some of the dothraki, few dozens perhaps just to mix it up imo
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On April 30 2019 00:32 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 23:43 NarutO wrote:
My question is - who do you guys think will die? I just can't see the show ending before maybe 4 to 5 main cast characters die. That would just not be Martin and how he portraits the world. Very likely: - Cersei - Jamie - Bronn - Euron - Greyworm (I still can't believe he survived Winterfell...) - Sandor - Gregor Villains and people who should be wrapping up their arcs pretty soon. The Greyworm x Missandei situation just screams tragedy waiting to happen. Also I love Bronn, but the guy is a total cockroach. He should've died like 2 seasons ago. Mild chance:- Tyrion - Missandei - Davos Conflicted about Tyrion. Not sure if they're going for total extinction of Lannister house or the irony of Tyrion getting it all in the end because everyone else is dead. For Missandei see above on Grey Worm, she's just a tad less likely as a non-combatant. Davos just because he's skated death way too many times and Melisandre is dead so it feels like his arc should be wrapping up. Reaching: - Dany - Sansa If this were the GoT of old I'd feel more confident in these two biting it. They've been sowing the seeds of discontent with Dany for awhile now and Sansa just strikes me as another Cersei in the making. But with how GoT has been for the past two seasons, it might all just be misdirection and everything works out in the end. Too much fanservice not enough tragedy.
It's not like someone has to die when his/her character arc is complete 
I don't see why Davos, Missandei, Tyrion, Grey Worm, Jamie or Bronn (let alone Dany and Sansa) should die
Maybe they will but it would not be weird to me if they don't
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On April 30 2019 00:36 M2 wrote:
My guess was that they will lose wintefell and run away and that night king will be the main treat until almost the end, I guess I overestimated his importance to the show being something more than just the Dragon Queen's armies nerf so she can become the underdog again. However, if I have to be objective, the Night King was never really the main idea of the show, but the war for the Iron Throne, so this outcome should not really be that surprising
I guess, but the army of the dead was always meant to contrast the game of thrones. Like the game of thrones is framed as something completely unable to acknowledge, let alone deal with this sort of overarching existential threat. But the show just sort of cast that aside even though it's been an ever present part of the show.
Hypothetically Dany was supposed to come and "smash the wheel" which would free Westereos to address the threat, but now she's just as much a pawn as anyone else.
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It's hard to imagine a way for Missandei and Grey Worm to die that would be impactful to the story. Last episode showed that the show is more or less unwilling to just discard notable characters without a fitting story to go with it (like Beric & Melisandre) which is also more or less how the story has operated to this point outside of some show-contrived killings to keep the cast/plot small (Dorne, Selmy, etc.).
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On April 30 2019 00:23 Aocowns wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 00:19 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
But by letting them charge like that they just look like bums. An offscreen battle report of them holding some side of the battlefield but being overrun with some of the survivors running inside the gate would be better than this.
But then they couldn't be used to plant a Jorah-ex-Machina somewhere deep on the battlefield to save a crashed Dany I guess jorah saving dany didnt have anything to do with the dothraki. Jorah charged with the dothraki on the frontline, survived and came back and fought on foot outside the wall, retreated inside the wall and fought, then charged back outside the wall on foot through x hundred meters to save the downed queen
On April 30 2019 00:22 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 00:19 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:
But by letting them charge like that they just look like bums. An offscreen battle report of them holding some side of the battlefield but being overrun with some of the survivors running inside the gate would be better than this.
But then they couldn't be used to plant a Jorah-ex-Machina somewhere deep on the battlefield to save a crashed Dany I guess There's not really a relation between Jorah's charge and his appearing by Dany. He makes it back inside the keep during the retreat just like everyone else, but then somehow gets out of the keep to be by Dany.
ok I missed that
And I agree the visual effect was cool and very impending doom inducing. But they died sooo fast. And the whole plan was to hold on long enough for the hero charcters to get rid of the Night King. So they basically made everyone's day harder by not being at the castle.
Not to mention the risk of them being risen and used against the castle even. Luckily there was no budget to show that either 
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On April 30 2019 00:36 M2 wrote:
My guess was that they will lose wintefell and run away and that night king will be the main treat until almost the end, I guess I overestimated his importance to the show being something more than just the Dragon Queen's armies nerf so she can become the underdog again. However, if I have to be objective, the Night King was never really the main idea of the show, but the war for the Iron Throne, so this outcome should not really be that surprising
I think there's a very valid argument to be made for the night king and the existential threat to all life being the over arching unifying plot point of the entire series, seeing as the very first scene in season 1 is showing the dread of the white walkers , and there are multiple scenes with old Nan telling Bran about the terror of the long night, and all the foreshadowing that happens in every season forming a red line to this disappointing climax.
So if anything, objectivity would be to say that the showdown with the night king was the main idea, with the politics and world building beyond that was setting up the story of the living coming together to face death, and the struggles that uniting the living would entail.
The rest of this season will feel like some scouring of the shire shit to me
Unless of course we have all been bamboozled and there is still more to happen that doesnt involve cersei vs the good guys
EDIT: Though I suppose it would be kinda "poetic" in a way(?) if Daenerys proved to be just another person with good intentions falling out of touch with her advisors and her subjects, getting obsessed with the idea of being queen of all the kingdoms, and the misery of the metaphorical wheel just kept rolling despite it all.
Some mad scenario with sansa and tyrion allied in the north/westerlands/the eyrie/riverlands/iron isles vs dany holding kings landing, the stormlands and annexing high garden, and then the crazy fuckers in dorne not wanting to deal with any of them
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On April 30 2019 00:41 VHbb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 00:32 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On April 29 2019 23:43 NarutO wrote:
My question is - who do you guys think will die? I just can't see the show ending before maybe 4 to 5 main cast characters die. That would just not be Martin and how he portraits the world. Very likely: - Cersei - Jamie - Bronn - Euron - Greyworm (I still can't believe he survived Winterfell...) - Sandor - Gregor Villains and people who should be wrapping up their arcs pretty soon. The Greyworm x Missandei situation just screams tragedy waiting to happen. Also I love Bronn, but the guy is a total cockroach. He should've died like 2 seasons ago. Mild chance:- Tyrion - Missandei - Davos Conflicted about Tyrion. Not sure if they're going for total extinction of Lannister house or the irony of Tyrion getting it all in the end because everyone else is dead. For Missandei see above on Grey Worm, she's just a tad less likely as a non-combatant. Davos just because he's skated death way too many times and Melisandre is dead so it feels like his arc should be wrapping up. Reaching: - Dany - Sansa If this were the GoT of old I'd feel more confident in these two biting it. They've been sowing the seeds of discontent with Dany for awhile now and Sansa just strikes me as another Cersei in the making. But with how GoT has been for the past two seasons, it might all just be misdirection and everything works out in the end. Too much fanservice not enough tragedy. It's not like someone has to die when his/her character arc is complete I don't see why Davos, Missandei, Tyrion, Grey Worm, Jamie or Bronn (let alone Dany and Sansa) should die Maybe they will but it would not be weird to me if they don't
The issue isn't the arc ending. The issue is Martin wrote the plotpoints and major deaths. I am sure in the books main characters die at Winterfell. Do you believe Martin doesn't kill of more people?
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I doubt Martin knows who will be at that battle beyond the major players.
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On April 29 2019 22:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 22:20 ahw wrote:On April 29 2019 22:16 Laurens wrote:
I can believe that Arya is the one that kills the NK in the books too.
Otherwise what is the point of her entire arc? She's trained to be an assassin, this is a pretty big topic in 2 of the books. It was written in the stars that she would either assassinate Cersei or another major character. My money has always been on Jaime as Cersei's killer so that means Arya has to assassinate someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if this entire battle is somewhat similar in the books, except more major characters will die. Brienne and Grey Worm for instance. There’s no NK in the books. It’s all fan fiction From what the show runners have said, GRRM has given them the highlight reel of what happens. The death of the night king is likely one of them and Arya seems like a safe bet for murdering him.
On the inside the episode segment they said they determined who kills nk about 3 years ago. It sounds like something they made on their own.
In any case in a vaccumn I thought the ep was absolutely amazing. It just felt so hopeless. The dead literally rushed at winterfell like a wave. So much of the army died. The dothraki and unsullied basically dont exist anymore. The north is all but cleansed. Maybe a handful of Vale lords and Riverland folk remain. I also dont like that it was arya but what can you do....
I'm also not convinced there will be a battle of winterfell in the books but this aint the place for it...
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On April 30 2019 00:52 Cricketer12 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2019 22:28 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2019 22:20 ahw wrote:On April 29 2019 22:16 Laurens wrote:
I can believe that Arya is the one that kills the NK in the books too.
Otherwise what is the point of her entire arc? She's trained to be an assassin, this is a pretty big topic in 2 of the books. It was written in the stars that she would either assassinate Cersei or another major character. My money has always been on Jaime as Cersei's killer so that means Arya has to assassinate someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if this entire battle is somewhat similar in the books, except more major characters will die. Brienne and Grey Worm for instance. There’s no NK in the books. It’s all fan fiction From what the show runners have said, GRRM has given them the highlight reel of what happens. The death of the night king is likely one of them and Arya seems like a safe bet for murdering him. On the inside the episode segment they said they determined who kills nk about 3 years ago. It sounds like something they made on their own. In any case in a vaccumn I thought the ep was absolutely amazing. It just felt so hopeless. The dead literally rushed at winterfell like a wave. So much of the army died. The dothraki and unsullied basically dont exist anymore. The north is all but cleansed. Maybe a handful of Vale lords and Riverland folk remain. I also dont like that it was arya but what can you do....
It is hard to tell because have said there are limits to what they can talk about when it comes to what GRRM has told them is in the books and what isn't. I wouldn't doubt it either way. It is entire possible that GRRM didn't have a resolution to the Night King, which wouldn't surprise me in the least.
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On April 30 2019 00:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2019 00:52 Cricketer12 wrote:On April 29 2019 22:28 Plansix wrote:On April 29 2019 22:20 ahw wrote:On April 29 2019 22:16 Laurens wrote:
I can believe that Arya is the one that kills the NK in the books too.
Otherwise what is the point of her entire arc? She's trained to be an assassin, this is a pretty big topic in 2 of the books. It was written in the stars that she would either assassinate Cersei or another major character. My money has always been on Jaime as Cersei's killer so that means Arya has to assassinate someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if this entire battle is somewhat similar in the books, except more major characters will die. Brienne and Grey Worm for instance. There’s no NK in the books. It’s all fan fiction From what the show runners have said, GRRM has given them the highlight reel of what happens. The death of the night king is likely one of them and Arya seems like a safe bet for murdering him. On the inside the episode segment they said they determined who kills nk about 3 years ago. It sounds like something they made on their own. In any case in a vaccumn I thought the ep was absolutely amazing. It just felt so hopeless. The dead literally rushed at winterfell like a wave. So much of the army died. The dothraki and unsullied basically dont exist anymore. The north is all but cleansed. Maybe a handful of Vale lords and Riverland folk remain. I also dont like that it was arya but what can you do.... It is hard to tell because have said there are limits to what they can talk about when it comes to what GRRM has told them is in the books and what isn't. I wouldn't doubt it either way. It is entire possible that GRRM didn't have a resolution to the Night King, which wouldn't surprise me in the least.
That's probably because there is no Night King in the book, at least currently. The Night's King was a figure of legend that died centuries before the book began and there were only fan theories that he was a character that would return for The Long Night. It's far more likely that he was only an invention of the show to give a "face" to the White Walker threat.
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