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United States7542 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:19 Velr wrote: Uhm, how about they just use their cavalry how you actually use cavalry instead of letting them mindlessly charge in? I mean from a show perspective, just having some extra cavalry charge in from the flanks at some point doesn't really fit with the episode's pacing and would sort of be hard to capture well I'd think? | ||
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Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
I obviously never fought medieval battles, but damn... Don't charge with your light cavalry into the enemy at the start of the battle. Even if the enemy army is not undead, rarely that will bring success. Speaking of cavalry, where are the knights of the vale? They have heavy cavalry, so maybe charge with them, but still not frontally. The human army had some advantages like artillery, trenches, cavalry and obviously walls, but they never used them effectively. The second thing that annoyed me is that nobody died. At many points important characters were really close to death, but then always someone magically showed up and saved the day. By the 5th time the did this it got really annoying. Just let someone die. I understand that they used this fight to give Cercei a chance and want all of their main characters at the final battle, but some of the lesser characters didn't need that plot armor. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:19 Velr wrote: Uhm, how about they just use their cavalry how you actually use cavalry instead of letting them mindlessly charge in? Well, the use of cavalry changed throughout history and was sometimes used “incorrectly”. In this show we have the armies of 3-4 disparate cultures and regions all trying to fight against an army they barely understand. At night. | ||
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United States7542 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:26 Plansix wrote: Well, the use of cavalry changed throughout history and was sometimes used “incorrectly”. In this show we have the armies of 3-4 disparate cultures and regions all trying to fight against an army they barely understand. At night. Not to mention the Dothraki aren't exactly known for discipline, and charging head first into battle on calvary is their go to battle plan. It's still sort of dumb, but it at least kind of fits into things. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10840 Posts
They could just have the Unsullied advance and the Dothraki Flank? Then disaster happens anyway and your basically at the same point? This is clearly a minor issue but one that could have been avoided? Most battles in GoT have been utterly retarded, so expecting more was pretty dilusional from the get go. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
They actually had me for a bit there at the end, it was a great execution of despair, the NK getting closer and closer to bran, noone can do anything to save him at this point. Then out of the blue arya jumps at him, but he catches here, i literally thought "good job D&D, for a second i thought you would actually end it like this, hehe". And then she actually kills him. Arya killing him as a plotpoint itself is weak thematically, but could be ok. But how they wrote it is absolutely lazy and unsatisfying. It's just a big gotcha moment, nothing else. Incredibly weak. Bran's whole arc ended without payoff apparently, the white walker storyline ended with barely any payoff (it could have been a little stronger if more important characters died, real consequential dread, not just teasing). Oh well, hopefully they stick the actual landing, but i really doubt it at this point. | ||
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United States7542 Posts
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:26 Plansix wrote: Well, the use of cavalry changed throughout history and was sometimes used “incorrectly”. In this show we have the armies of 3-4 disparate cultures and regions all trying to fight against an army they barely understand. At night. + Show Spoiler + Yes, my battle plan after days of planning would also be to charge a good third of my actually impactful army through a kilometer of darkness into an army i "dont understand". Those pesky cultures that up until this point have given no one any reason to doubt their basic comprehension of transpiring events and who have already conquered their most basic culture quirks to follow the queens orders! sarcasm aside, it is of course a good point that almost a dozen seasoned soldiers and military leaders would plausibly use their cavalry incorrectly(read: charge through a kilometer of darkness at an enemy they cant see with lightly armoured cavalry with no lances), just like in real history! | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:28 Velr wrote: Yeah, it's much better to just suicide charge ~1/3 of your army because thats easier to show on television. They could just have the Unsullied advance and the Dothraki Flank? Then disaster happens anyway and your basically at the same point? This is clearly a minor issue but one that could have been avoided? Most battles in GoT have been utterly retarded, so expecting more was pretty dilusional from the get go. Pretty much. Shooting scenes of combat on horses is one of the most dangerous things they can do on TV or movies. If you watch real world horse riding on TV, you will notice that everyone had helmets on and is fully clothed. They are also riding with both hands. There is only so much they can do and make it look good in any TV show or movie. On April 29 2019 23:39 Aocowns wrote: + Show Spoiler + Yes, my battle plan after days of planning would also be to charge a good third of my actually impactful army through a kilometer of darkness into an army i "dont understand". Those pesky cultures that up until this point have given no one any reason to doubt their basic comprehension of transpiring events and who have already conquered their most basic culture quirks to follow the queens orders! sarcasm aside, it is of course a good point that almost a dozen seasoned soldiers and military leaders would plausibly use their cavalry incorrectly(read: charge through a kilometer of darkness at an enemy they cant see with lightly armoured cavalry with no lances), just like in real history! In real history the commanders would be drunk assholes who bought their way into military leadership and didn’t know anything about tactics or war. If dig into history, you will find out the great military planning was the exception. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
So from what I understand Martin gave them all major plot ends and deaths etc, right? Meaning the minor (b cast maybe) arcs might be different or the outcome. But who is or will be dead for Martin should be for the show. My question is - who do you guys think will die? I just can't see the show ending before maybe 4 to 5 main cast characters die. That would just not be Martin and how he portraits the world. | ||
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United States7542 Posts
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:40 Plansix wrote: Pretty much. Shooting scenes of combat on horses is one of the most dangerous things they can do on TV or movies. If you watch real world horse riding on TV, you will notice that everyone had helmets on and is fully clothed. They are also riding with both hands. There is only so much they can do and make it look good in any TV show or movie. I suppose i should take back my spoilered reply if you change your stance from trying to defend the strategy to defending the practical filming of it But its not like something much better than this hasnt been done before. Unless my nostalgia glasses are fucking with me, rohans charge at the battle of pelenor fields was very impressive and i doubt that it couldn't have been facilitated within the shows budget or production capabilities to do something more in that style | ||
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fishjie
United States1519 Posts
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:40 Plansix wrote: Pretty much. Shooting scenes of combat on horses is one of the most dangerous things they can do on TV or movies. If you watch real world horse riding on TV, you will notice that everyone had helmets on and is fully clothed. They are also riding with both hands. There is only so much they can do and make it look good in any TV show or movie. In real history the commanders would be drunk assholes who bought their way into military leadership and didn’t know anything about tactics or war. If dig into history, you will find out the great military planning was the exception. In which case they wouldn't be seasoned and proven military commanders, would they? The only drunken commander in the vicinity of winterfell was tyrion, and he was deliberately kept away from the military planning, so im not sure the point goes anywhere | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:44 Aocowns wrote: I suppose i should take back my spoilered reply if you change your stance from trying to defend the strategy to defending the practical filming of it But its not like something much better than this hasnt been done before. Unless my nostalgia glasses are fucking with me, rohans charge at the battle of pelenor fields was very impressive and i doubt that it couldn't have been facilitated within the shows budget or production capabilities to do something more in that style That specific charge into battle doesn’t show a lot of combat. It is just them riding over the orks on mass and the orks retreating. The big fight is against CGI elephants where they can shoot a single rider doing cool stuff and then fill in the big CGI monster around it. What you remember from that movie is the charge, not the fight itself. | ||
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Longshank
1648 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:26 Plansix wrote: Well, the use of cavalry changed throughout history and was sometimes used “incorrectly”. In this show we have the armies of 3-4 disparate cultures and regions all trying to fight against an army they barely understand. At night. Some armies used infantry fire incorrectly, it still doesn't make it credible when an army points the wrong end of the guns towards enemies and blow their own heads off. There's a difference between incorrectly and Black Adder level of stupidity, | ||
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Warri
Germany3208 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:43 Logo wrote: I think the simple solution honestly would be to have had it been clear the dothraki charged against orders or demanded to do what they did. It's totally in character for them and would be a small framing to just kill the whole point. I agree. It's totally in character for them when they are ruled by a "small men" khal who just wants to plunder some shitty trader outpost. Not when they are following their literal goddess from the flames. It's not their own doing putting them at the very front for no reason where they are the first line of offense/defense. Whoever did the tactics could have used them better and we still could have the same scene, wih them losing their cool and charging ahead, but more believable that way. | ||
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Aocowns
Norway6070 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:47 Plansix wrote: That specific charge into battle doesn’t show a lot of combat. It is just them riding over the orks on mass and the orks retreating. The big fight is against CGI elephants where they can shoot a single rider doing cool stuff and then fill in the big CGI monster around it. What you remember from that movie is the charge, not the fight itself. And the charge would have been the impacful part, seeing as they dont have dragon glass weapons, and their flaming swords wouldnt actually hit that much from horseback in such tight formations. The point is, any remotely logical use of the cavaly would proooobably involve using them as a plow to create space for something else to happen, or as the entire point of the fight was, to buy time. Have them charge in at the flank like rohan did to buy time for a retreat into the fort, or for a charge at the white walkers. show some cool ass lawn mowing that gets foiled by an undead dragon or that eventually loses momentum because the zombies prove to be too many and too recklessly murderous, unlike people. that way you get cool cinematography but not facepalm worthy narrative | ||
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United States7542 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:47 Plansix wrote: That specific charge into battle doesn’t show a lot of combat. It is just them riding over the orks on mass and the orks retreating. The big fight is against CGI elephants where they can shoot a single rider doing cool stuff and then fill in the big CGI monster around it. What you remember from that movie is the charge, not the fight itself. Not to mention the Lord of the Rings movies (Two Towers at least) had nearly x10 the budget of the episode. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 29 2019 23:51 Logo wrote: Not to mention the Lord of the Rings movies (Two Towers at least) had nearly x10 the budget of the episode. In this episode they had to make choices about what they wanted to feature and the cavalry charge being resolved through seeing the lights go out was a way to deal with the horse men. Having the cavalry flank the army when they engaged the unsullied would have been another way, but I think it would have been difficult convey since we see so few overhead shots of the battle lines. | ||
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