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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
Just watched it and am still digesting everything but....I have to say, this went from looking like the clear best episode of the series, a hard 10/10 ep with all kinds of great moments, to a final 15 mins that made me want to rage quit the show. Don't get me wrong, it was definitely still top-tier and will definitely go down as one of the greatest battles I've ever seen, movies included. If nothing else, GoT has been consistent the whole way on amazing battles with superb cinematography.
Arya though...Arya...I had a sense of unease when I briefly read the description of this episode: "Arya looks to prove her worth as a fighter", but thought, "surely there's no way they'd be stupid enough to have Arya be the one to end the Night King, what is she going to do, shank him?" there was no way they'd telegraph it that hard, right? I mean, my heart just plummeted when the grand revelation of Beric's purpose was to protect Arya, right then I saw it coming 10 miles away and it was excruciating, especially with the slow-mo buildup and basically every character being an inch away from death. It's like how cliche can you get?
Then there's the grand payoff of Bran's character which is......uhh? I mean, Bran has been by far the most boring character of the series in both book and show. He's in a tier of his own in terms of boredom, epsecially these past two seasons now that he's basically a memory-dispensing robot. But I was thinking, okay, this has to finally be his big moment of the series. He's one of these x-factor characters with magical abilities along with Melisandre so I was hoping for some potentially interesting or mysterious resolutions to the Night King.
The Reeds, Hodor, Osha, Theon, Bloodraven, the Children, all made sacrifices so Bran could...be live bait I guess. Yeah, all those interesting time paradox theories about Bran and the Night King somehow being one in the same? Fuck all that, surprise stabby stab time yall! Girls we run dis shit! Night King can tank dragon fire but ain't shit against a fledgling assassin with a dagger! Also, where the hell did Arya even jump from? Was she hiding in the godswood tree? The whole area was surrounded by wights and walkers, but she still finds a way? How?
Also, I'm surprised so many characters survived. The army of the dead punked an entire horde of Dothraki with flaming weapons at the beginning of the ep, yet somehow Sam survives on the frontlines. Wat.
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28079 Posts
Some thoughts on why they handled this storyline the way they did.
+ Show Spoiler + I feel like they must have had a massive lack of direction from GRRM and just decided to make the NK stuff a side plot and not bother fleshing out any of the related lore/mythology due to not really knowing how to handle it. I mean it was this super important impending doom for seven seasons then it gets handled in one ep with no explanation, which really makes it seem like they last minute scrapped it being a major storyline. The Cersei storyline is a lot easier to handle and might even have more appeal for the general audience so they probably decided to focus in on that.
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Bran's boredass expression is because he saw how the night king dies, "like really man...after all this shit i had to go through..."
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On April 29 2019 19:06 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:
Just watched it and am still digesting everything but....I have to say, this went from looking like the clear best episode of the series, a hard 10/10 ep with all kinds of great moments, to a final 15 mins that made me want to rage quit the show. Don't get me wrong, it was definitely still top-tier and will definitely go down as one of the greatest battles I've ever seen, movies included. If nothing else, GoT has been consistent the whole way on amazing battles with superb cinematography.
Arya though...Arya...I had a sense of unease when I briefly read the description of this episode: "Arya looks to prove her worth as a fighter", but thought, "surely there's no way they'd be stupid enough to have Arya be the one to end the Night King, what is she going to do, shank him?" there was no way they'd telegraph it that hard, right? I mean, my heart just plummeted when the grand revelation of Beric's purpose was to protect Arya, right then I saw it coming 10 miles away and it was excruciating, especially with the slow-mo buildup and basically every character being an inch away from death. It's like how cliche can you get?
Then there's the grand payoff of Bran's character which is......uhh? I mean, Bran has been by far the most boring character of the series in both book and show. He's in a tier of his own in terms of boredom, epsecially these past two seasons now that he's basically a memory-dispensing robot. But I was thinking, okay, this has to finally be his big moment of the series. He's one of these x-factor characters with magical abilities along with Melisandre so I was hoping for some potentially interesting or mysterious resolutions to the Night King.
The Reeds, Hodor, Osha, Theon, Bloodraven, the Children, all made sacrifices so Bran could...be live bait I guess. Yeah, all those interesting time paradox theories about Bran and the Night King somehow being one in the same? Fuck all that, surprise stabby stab time yall! Girls we run dis shit! Night King can tank dragon fire but ain't shit against a fledgling assassin with a dagger! Also, where the hell did Arya even jump from? Was she hiding in the godswood tree? The whole area was surrounded by wights and walkers, but she still finds a way? How?
Also, I'm surprised so many characters survived. The army of the dead punked an entire horde of Dothraki with flaming weapons at the beginning of the ep, yet somehow Sam survives on the frontlines. Wat.
+ Show Spoiler +At some point, i was even expecting him to get out of the chair and fight like a super hero with bad ass super power. I was ready for ANYTHING they could throw at us for Bran. But not. The power of staring is too strong in this one.
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Am I the only one that liked Hardhome and Battle of the Bastards more?
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28079 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Also I like how we’re supposed to believe the Children — who could do incredibly complex and unthinkable things — were dumb enough to create a super weapon race that could be fucked with just the main guy getting ganked.
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I'm happy with the ending. A faceless man killed the king of the dead. If we leave aside the insane fan theories, and look at the situation, there is no one that can kill the night king except Arya. Jon Snow can't get to him(and even if he does, it would be dumb to just beat the NK in a sword duel), dragons can't hurt him, simple men are powerless, Bran is an oracle and not Gandalf the White. The only realistic way to kill this almost invinsible enemy is by surprise. And who are the best at sneaking and surprising... the faceless men.
Now after this is resolved and after the NK played his role in the development of the characters, we are back at the main focus of the show - the iron throne.
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On April 29 2019 19:45 TheEmulator wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Also I like how we’re supposed to believe the Children — who could do incredibly complex and unthinkable things — were dumb enough to create a super weapon race that could be fucked with just the main guy getting ganked.
Single point of failures are super common though, not only in fiction
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+ Show Spoiler +It's not that Arya killed him i have a problem with. It's how (easy). He is standing in an open field Ned. Behind him are like a dozen walkers. One even senses her. Yet she can somehow jump 5m high and 20m far to be in the position we see her in.
I can think of a dozen ways better to end it. They could have made it so the walkers were in the fight too, have Arya kill one and then let the surprise be that she can take walker faces. Then in the final scene Arya backstabs the NK as a walker.
Or dont make him immune to dragon fire and in the final scene have Bran warg into undead dragon and blow away both himself and the NK. Or have Bran warg into a walker. Pick up Theons dragonglass weapon (why did he only have a shitty pole anyway) and backstab him. Literally anything but "Arya appears in an impossible position 3m above the NK out of nowhere"
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The faceless men deal with assassinating human targets with subterfuge, some face changing magic, and real weapons designed to kill humans (poisons, arrows, daggers and w/e)
After the Night King survives being bathe in dragon fire, whats to suggest that any weapon Valyrian or otherwise actually does anything. Apart from being associated with death the two "faceless men" and "NK/WW/wights" their stories have nothing to do with each other. Arya entire storyline has nothing to do with the NK outside of this ep she hasnt even seen a wight before. She kills the NK because its unexpected the post ep break down with the DnD say exactly that.
If we are to believe that the Red lady saw Arya killing the Night King (which is what she seems to suggest), why back stannis, why revive Jon, why do anything that isnt directly concerning arya.
You dont need to write it so Arya teleporting is the only solution...
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meanwhile, GRRM hasn't written a single word in 7 years to continue the storyline. To all you people bitching, they should have resumed the show when GRRM finishes the books, i.e. never.
If given a choice I'd take conclusion over hiatus any day. What would you rather?
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Well, I guess they've blown most of the season budged into a single episode where a lot happens but at the same time nothing happens...
+ Show Spoiler +
I guess that Arya's plot armor is just too thick. I don't really like her character or story arc at all in this series and I have no idea why they're making her the main focus.
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On April 29 2019 19:54 Warri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It's not that Arya killed him i have a problem with. It's how (easy). He is standing in an open field Ned. Behind him are like a dozen walkers. One even senses her. Yet she can somehow jump 5m high and 20m far to be in the position we see her in.
I can think of a dozen ways better to end it. They could have made it so the walkers were in the fight too, have Arya kill one and then let the surprise be that she can take walker faces. Then in the final scene Arya backstabs the NK as a walker.
Or dont make him immune to dragon fire and in the final scene have Bran warg into undead dragon and blow away both himself and the NK. Or have Bran warg into a walker. Pick up Theons dragonglass weapon (why did he only have a shitty pole anyway) and backstab him. Literally anything but "Arya appears in an impossible position 3m above the NK out of nowhere"
+ Show Spoiler +Well, they had Arya sneak up on Jon at that same tree where he went ' how did you sneak up on me'
And the library scene was to show how even a drop of blood was louder than her movements.
And even then he still caught her mid air! He just got wrecked by a water-dancing dagger move.
It makes sense for the god of death to not be happy with the night king reclaiming dead people for his own uses. So he granted her power surely. And the lord of light also put all his eggs in her basket by making Hound, Beric and Mellisandre save her. She used the dagger that was used to attempt to kill Bran to save Brans life.
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I think that Arya was meant to kill the night king from the very start of the show. Melisandre is known for having visions that she can't herself understand completely. She refers to the "blue eyes you will shut forever" prophecy from the earlier seasons. Now we all understand the meaning.
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On April 29 2019 19:54 Warri wrote:+ Show Spoiler +It's not that Arya killed him i have a problem with. It's how (easy). He is standing in an open field Ned. Behind him are like a dozen walkers. One even senses her. Yet she can somehow jump 5m high and 20m far to be in the position we see her in.
I can think of a dozen ways better to end it. They could have made it so the walkers were in the fight too, have Arya kill one and then let the surprise be that she can take walker faces. Then in the final scene Arya backstabs the NK as a walker.
Or dont make him immune to dragon fire and in the final scene have Bran warg into undead dragon and blow away both himself and the NK. Or have Bran warg into a walker. Pick up Theons dragonglass weapon (why did he only have a shitty pole anyway) and backstab him. Literally anything but "Arya appears in an impossible position 3m above the NK out of nowhere"
Basically this. Even if they were going to have Arya be the one to do it, there were better ways. Hell, here's one I pulled out my ass that isn't great but better than what we got.Rework the scene so Arya has an opportunity to go to Bran before the wights arrive with an entire event playing off-camera that is shown in a brief flashback to end the ep:
Bran being all-knowing realizes it's hopeless without the element of surprise. Bran knows of Arya's faceless man abilities, Arya begins to realize her destiny after encountering Melisandre. Bran allows Arya to kill him for her to assume his identity.
Scene plays out the same except right when the NK is about to land the deathblow, the seemingly crippled Bran suddenly leaps from his chair and stabs the NK in the heart. Surprise, it's not Bran, but Arya. Shock and tragedy ensue as the NK is defeated but another Stark falls and all the knowledge of humanity with him.
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And then the NK never shows up because Arya did his job instead of him.
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Arya killing Bran to kill the NK is beyond bad lmao. When people put this forward as 'better' endings you can see that the showmakers have no way of winning, there isn't a single ending that will please everyone.
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But there are endings that are not lazy and bad. It's quite evident that DnD didn't know how to handle GRRM's unfinished deal with the NK, WWs and the prophecy so they just didn't. It's very disapponting to someone who had hoped there would be some thought, logic, sense and reason behind what's been building for 6 seasons. This episode cemented what we've feared for the last two seasons, that there's not.
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10/10 will watch again, some parts were cliche but it was a SPECTACLE. The darkness of the scenes really screwed up my eyes though, that wasn't too nice. Man people are negative about this show. I dislike the discontinuation of many of the Nobles, most notably the Tully's but hell can we just watch it as a spectacle and not read it like a book?
So let me start by summing up the death count;
+- 99,5% of all Dothraki.
+- 90-95% of all allied foot soldiers/archers
+- 75% of all civilians & administrators etc.
Dolorus Ed
Lyana Mormont
Beric Dondarian
Theon Greyjoy
Jorah Mormont
The Battle:
I thought the +3 Melee Fire Damage to all Dothraki fighters cast by Mellisandre spell was AMAZING, I said Epic Out Loud (EOL LOL). I was expecting them to kick ass and deal relevant damage to the UD army and some WW commanders in a relevant pre-batt;e before perishing themselves so them being curbed by the UD wave was also really cool and added to the horror element.
I actually thought the tactics and formations were pretty cool, especially the tactical retreat protected by the Unsullied and the commanding of the Archers on the walls and towers by Jaime (he is a commander after all). I would say the Unsullied where the most capable fighting force.
After falling back to the Keep I was expecting the wall guards to toss burning boiling oil from the walls or rocks at least, that was a wasted opportunity imo. The UD Giant was really cool too as wel as UD Viserion, well done.
Bran though, what a weird useless character. Doesn't warg to scout and relay info to the commanders... OK so why was he warging? My theory was he was somehow summoning all the living creatures in a 100 KM radius, and holding them back strategically to the very last moment. Imagine a million birds just flooding the NK and the WW commanders in the final scene and thousands of bears, wolves, oxes, stags etc. suiciding themselves to give that needed distraction for the real NK assisination? Until the very end I was thinking is this what he was doing in the pre-warg he just did all day? Whatever.
Still a 10/10
Now for next episode. Will Edmure Tully and his bannermen finally make it North? They were allowed safe passage out of the Riverlands after all? Discuss please
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/gjK522Z.jpg)
