EPT
you read a lot of disappointed comments here, but the alternative scenarios proposed are really absurd..
[TV] HBO Game of Thrones - Page 1735
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VHbb
689 Posts
you read a lot of disappointed comments here, but the alternative scenarios proposed are really absurd.. | ||
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Amestir
Netherlands2126 Posts
I just cant fanthom that this is the way you kill your big enemy you have been building for 8 seasons. | ||
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Amestir
Netherlands2126 Posts
On April 29 2019 21:18 frontliner2 wrote: 10/10 will watch again, some parts were cliche but it was a SPECTACLE. The darkness of the scenes really screwed up my eyes though, that wasn't too nice. Man people are negative about this show. I dislike the discontinuation of many of the Nobles, most notably the Tully's but hell can we just watch it as a spectacle and not read it like a book? So let me start by summing up the death count; +- 99,5% of all Dothraki. +- 90-95% of all allied foot soldiers/archers +- 75% of all civilians & administrators etc. Dolorus Ed Lyana Mormont Beric Dondarian Theon Greyjoy Jorah Mormont The Battle: I thought the +3 Melee Fire Damage to all Dothraki fighters cast by Mellisandre spell was AMAZING, I said Epic Out Loud (EOL LOL). I was expecting them to kick ass and deal relevant damage to the UD army and some WW commanders in a relevant pre-batt;e before perishing themselves so them being curbed by the UD wave was also really cool and added to the horror element. I actually thought the tactics and formations were pretty cool, especially the tactical retreat protected by the Unsullied and the commanding of the Archers on the walls and towers by Jaime (he is a commander after all). I would say the Unsullied where the most capable fighting force. After falling back to the Keep I was expecting the wall guards to toss burning boiling oil from the walls or rocks at least, that was a wasted opportunity imo. The UD Giant was really cool too as wel as UD Viserion, well done. Bran though, what a weird useless character. Doesn't warg to scout and relay info to the commanders... OK so why was he warging? My theory was he was somehow summoning all the living creatures in a 100 KM radius, and holding them back strategically to the very last moment. Imagine a million birds just flooding the NK and the WW commanders in the final scene and thousands of bears, wolves, oxes, stags etc. suiciding themselves to give that needed distraction for the real NK assisination? Until the very end I was thinking is this what he was doing in the pre-warg he just did all day? Whatever. Still a 10/10 Now for next episode. Will Edmure Tully and his bannermen finally make it North? They were allowed safe passage out of the Riverlands after all? Discuss please Not to rain on your parade, but I would like to give some counters as to why I'm so dissapointed. The tactics: flaming swords where cool, charge was cool. Then nothing. What was the original plan here? Just hope the drotraki win on there own? I get the horror part, but why send your cavalary with (almost) zero support? Retreat with the Unsullied: why only one trench of fire? Why not 10 plus? Me and my friends where so confused once the fighting came to the walls. Where was everyone? It felt like there was almost nobody on the walls defending. We kept hoping for a surpirse flank. Your Bran theory, meh if thats what you need to tell yourself  Your questions for the next episode prove my point: dont these stakes feel incredebly low after all the hype for the NK? I'm glad you enjoyed it, but your post really gave me a good oppertunity to explain why I am so dissapointed. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4128 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On April 29 2019 21:30 VHbb wrote: how is Bran warging into an undead dragon (???) more believable than what happened? Arya killing Bran to surprise the Night King.. what? the whole point is to protect Bran you read a lot of disappointed comments here, but the alternative scenarios proposed are really absurd.. The issue is, that the whole tone of episode 2 was more or less a farewell. The whole tone of episode 3 was defeat on every level. I thought the cut and pacing were a bit strange and they potentially have a lot of characters die in the end together. If the Nightking had to die this episode, I feel major sacrifice would be at least believable. Let me give you a few examples. Dany scorching the Night King. I think it would have been a very believable and good ending if you see the flames extinguish or the NK throwing a spear from the ground fatally wounding Dany. Later Jorah trying to save her but she dies in his arms and he gets killed there too as he loses his spirits to fight. Death of Jon when he encountered the NK. I can believe Dany showed up and saved him though. (need to change the time and order of scenes though) The next very believable death for Dany would have been after saving Jon and getting overrun. We all remember GoT as unpredictable and no one is safe. This frankly made me feel really nervous about those characters. As explained if he had to die this episode there were better ways. I did like the disguise as water and stab him theory for example but the most crucial point is pacing and portraying the NK. He seemed absolutely untouchable even against Dragonfire. Then without him letting his guard down Arya uses the sneak dagger drop. I think it's not beliavble. Also building a threat over so many seasons solving it in just one episode seemed wrong. Multiple people explained some arcs are now really questionable. A very beliavble scenario would have been a retreat and people buying time for some to flee too. I believe GRRM told them the end in terms of who dies and who lives and who sits on the throne and they had to figure out how to get there. It might be that for example Dany is dead for GRRM at the battle of winterfell and they let her die when potentially her Dragon gets shot down by Cerseis ballista. Overall I am hoping even more for him to finish books now as I just feel what they did doesn't do this epic any justice. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On April 29 2019 22:06 Plansix wrote: There is a reason armies don't fight at night, especially in the era GoT is evoking. The ability to be tactical in a fight were you can barely see is almost non-existent. To be fair you can only blame the dothraki part. If the Nightking let's his army charge, you are fighting at night. No choice there | ||
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VHbb
689 Posts
they just got their weapons lit up with fire, it's night and they don't know they don't stand a chance against the undead, on the contrary the probably feel like they will just over run them like they did in every previous fight.. so they charge doesn't seem "unlikely" to me.. It's still a very "strong" scene, we are used to see the horde stomping enemies, and you expect to see them at least clash with the undead, while only seeing the lights going off is quite powerful on the contrary the unsullied are clearly a well trained force which obeys orders even when faced with defeat, and I liked how they are the ones covering the retreat (even though it's clearly portrayed how not effective they are against the undead) I'm not saying everything was perfect: I also hope to get some more details about what Bran was doing with the crows, but still it's one of the best episodes (and one of the best battles) of the show for me, going after why there weren't more trenches on fire is a bit extreme to me. in all these, so many details and interactions I enjoyed - lady mormont (overall) and the giant scene - the hound and dondarion saving arya - the reference to the syrio forel scene with arya, and the move with the dagger (similar to the training with brienne) - overall the fights: true, it's dark, but once again you can feel the brawl and the desperation / struggle - the fact that jon does not come to the rescue at the end: it seems staged so that jon is running through winterfell to rescue brann, which is a bit extreme and does not seem possible, and indeed he is not the "hero" to kill the night king - the scene with jorah protecting and saving daenerys - the soundtrack (!!!) always a strong point of GoT - tyrion and sansa - jamie commanding troups to defend winterfell (!) - in general, how the undead horde is portrayed, really looking unstoppable (walking off winterfell roofs, and piling on to reach the top of the walls) etc.etc. I'm for sure missing 100 more things I liked since it was a ~1h20 episode  edit: sorry Naruto, we replied at the same time I see your concern, maybe it's because I didn't read the books.. In my eyes, I felt at all points that most (main) characters were in danger, and to the end I wasn't sure what was going to happen: when the NK stops Arya in the air for a second I thought he would just kill her, before the dagger drops Even so, I don't feel like we need to have one of the major characters die: I don't think it will happen either, I think both Jon and Daenarys will survive (I might be wrong of course.. in which case Dany is the most likely to die I think), but the fact that the main ones are still alive does not detract from the plot to me.. I agree that having resolved the fight with the WW and the NK over multiple episodes might have been better, but to be honest I would have added one episode before this one, rather than them fleeing from Winterfell.. if Arya does not kill the NK at that point, it does not look like anyone could escape from the battle (especially with the recent dead resurrected) | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4542 Posts
Otherwise what is the point of her entire arc? She's trained to be an assassin, this is a pretty big topic in 2 of the books. It was written in the stars that she would either assassinate Cersei or another major character. My money has always been on Jaime as Cersei's killer so that means Arya has to assassinate someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if this entire battle is somewhat similar in the books, except more major characters will die. Brienne and Grey Worm for instance. | ||
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ahw
Canada1099 Posts
On April 29 2019 22:16 Laurens wrote: I can believe that Arya is the one that kills the NK in the books too. Otherwise what is the point of her entire arc? She's trained to be an assassin, this is a pretty big topic in 2 of the books. It was written in the stars that she would either assassinate Cersei or another major character. My money has always been on Jaime as Cersei's killer so that means Arya has to assassinate someone else. I wouldn't be surprised if this entire battle is somewhat similar in the books, except more major characters will die. Brienne and Grey Worm for instance. There’s no NK in the books. It’s all fan fiction | ||
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Doko
Argentina1737 Posts
Another point to worth bringing up is that normally such a massive charge would SHIT ALL OVER light infantry with no spears and still have a chance to retreat because men try to dodge horses, but those were not men, they didn't give a crap and just counter charged which destroys the momentum of the wedge and gets it quickly enveloped. TLDR: the spot where dany and jon overlook the battle is where the dothraki should've been, but then we wouldn't have that awesome shot of the lights going out. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 29 2019 22:20 ahw wrote: There’s no NK in the books. It’s all fan fiction From what the show runners have said, GRRM has given them the highlight reel of what happens. The death of the night king is likely one of them and Arya seems like a safe bet for murdering him. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Or in Troy when they show what happens when you storm spearman guarded by archers on walls + Show Spoiler + And they could have still been swarmed and overran and all die and get resurrected but it would've been so much cooler. They really got the heavy impact of dragon fire right though, those few flyby's were great. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On April 29 2019 21:58 Amestir wrote: Not to rain on your parade, but I would like to give some counters as to why I'm so dissapointed. The tactics: flaming swords where cool, charge was cool. Then nothing. What was the original plan here? Just hope the drotraki win on there own? I get the horror part, but why send your cavalary with (almost) zero support? Retreat with the Unsullied: why only one trench of fire? Why not 10 plus? Me and my friends where so confused once the fighting came to the walls. Where was everyone? It felt like there was almost nobody on the walls defending. We kept hoping for a surpirse flank. Your Bran theory, meh if thats what you need to tell yourself Your questions for the next episode prove my point: dont these stakes feel incredebly low after all the hype for the NK? I'm glad you enjoyed it, but your post really gave me a good oppertunity to explain why I am so dissapointed. They are the Dothraki. They do not do tactics. What they do is charge in and plow through the opponent and its how they always win. They went head to head with an army that was just much MUCH better at it then them. Was it a crazy and stupid plan by them? Yes. Does it make sense with everything we have seen about the Dothraki to this point in the series? Also yes. | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Starts off pretty much the same, except with the one massive trench infront of the army its just covering the front side of the gate to winterfell (with some smaller trenchs that are hugging the walls of the castle for attacks from other sides) They're expecting the Night King to go head on with them. The soliders are the first behind the trench, followed by archers followed by more soliders and people manning the seige weapons we have the same stockade of X shaped logs in a semi circle with gaps in the line for people to retreat without being too exposed. The Dothraki are on either side of the army ready to fan out and flank. Danny and Jon are close to Bran on their dragons, as that was their whole plan last ep. Melisandre arrives with a group of red priestess, she mentions its not all of them but the ones who cant make it are giving their blessing to the lord of light. They head into the castle (there is no giving of the fire to the dothraki weapons) The battle begins, the undead charge like the wave they are. The siege weapons fire flaming balls lighting up the undead horde through a now mystical fog/wind, the archers lit their fire arrows and fire, as soon as the undead near the trench danny flies off, the archers and the seige weapons stop, she breaths fire onto the trench when suddenly shes attack by a dragon the two lock into battle, but the trenchs are lit the unsullied lock shields and prepare for battle as the archers run past. Jon sees danny engage the undead dragon, he gets on his dragon and rides to her. The Night king's dragon grips on to dannys not letting her escape and get range to breathe fire. The night king sensing/seeing Jon coming disengages and fly away by breathing blue fire, but is meant with dannys dragon fire. You can have the same scenes where they fly above the clouds and the night king disappears shortly. Greyworm is not in the front but rather near the back commanding the unsullied/ archers along with jorah, brianne and some of the other northern lords. Afterall they are commanders and this a very large army for one person to do all the yelling. The undeads sweeps through them, the dothraki try to flank them. Pretty much the same battle scene occurs but plus the dothraki. Its no use, theres too many undead they have to retreat and fall but theres no enough time or room to escape the undead are closing in, the gates of the winterfell open up, the Knights of the vale charge out with flaming swords imbued by the red priestess they cut a path from the gate and spread out to give the much needed space to retreat. The walls are manned with archers firing into the distance. You can have the same scene where the sword fires slowly go out in the fog, and then the undead rush against the walls. The trenchs against the walls are dumped with oil and tar, and set on fire with thrown torches and fire arrows. Again there are just too many undead their bodies cover the trenchs and drown out the fire eventually and climb over the walls. But the wall is holding, until its busted open by giants they storm in, some are taken out by massive amounts of arrows, and the pikes on the ground when they fall. Lyanna mormont can have her moment where she kills the giant while dying. While the zombies are still flooding the walls. The broken gate of winterfell is surpisingly clear of zombies as sets of blue eyes appear in the short distance and in walk the white walkers, quelling the fires inside the castle. Jamie, brienne, pod, northern lords, grey worm, tormound, and all the other B characters are set to fight them. (they can all live or they can all die im not gonna pick them now), the crypt shit can be subverted (as no one important dies from that anyway) by Tyrion saying that oh shit there are corpses in the crypts (duh) and then sansa mentions that the stark lords have been buried with iron to prevent them rising from the dead (maybe some ancient stark/winterfell magic going on) Back to the main story, the wights clamour over the walls of the gods wood jon and danny fight to stop them. The night king shows up with some white walkers on his dragons back. He blasts a section of the wall with blue fire destroying it, while letting off the whitewalkers and more wights to charge in. Jon and danny battle in the skies just above bran, the white walkers throw ice spears, at Jons dragon. Hes wounded in the wing and thus crashes down inside the godswood. The dragon is unconscious Jon is knocked to the ground. Danny seems to have the advantage with her dragon being able to breath fire onto the undead dragon roasting large sections of it and killing it, the white walkers turn to aim their spears at drogon but bran wargs into the jon's unconscious dragon and annihilates the white walkers here with dragon fire. and why not have ghost next to bran for defence, there are still wights and soliders surrounding bran, the undead dragon crashes to the ground being defeated by dragon fire and the Night king is on the floor in a kneeling position he looks up and raises his arms to revive the dead, danny blasts him with fire. But the smoke clears he's unhurt the dead rise. The night king takes off his ice sword, sends his new wights to Jon, bran, ghost, theon, danny and maybe jorah is there. Some fighting happens, but ultimately its Jon with his wolf, and bran in dragon warg. (ice and fire), Jon himself holds long claw and duels the Night king with the wolf aiding in distraction and the dragon breathing fire around them to hold off the wights. The Night king is too strong, and wounds jon with his ice sword its lodged into him, ghost attacks the night king from behind the Night is too quick and spins around wacks it to the ground, Jon in anger pulls out the ice sword from his shoulder and slices through the Night kings armour both weapon and armor shatter, revealing a dark mark where the dragonglass was pushed into him (maybe bran tells him of this vision or maybe he doesnt) Jon figures its important, he reaches for longclaw and stabs the night king through the heart but like other stab wounds in the fihgt it has no affect. With kings blood dripping from his shoulder wound, he mutter dracarys and the sword lights up on fire. It burns with such heat that it melts the dragonglass shard killing the night king. Then you can have bran do some lore explanation on wtf this all means. Jon is the prince who was promised, he was the song of ice and fire, he used ice and fire, was backed by the animals representing ice and fire and it is ice and fire that kill the night king | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
I do applaud the NK for realizing there's no reason whatsoever for him to put his White Walker lieutenants in any danger, though. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On April 29 2019 22:32 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: I just wish the big battles were better. Why don't we see the undead getting pelted under hails of arrows and boulders? Just look at Gladiators opening battle scene. Unleash hell upon these fuckers. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVLGwTggO8U&t=2m Or in Troy when they show what happens when you storm spearman guarded by archers on walls + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUNC-w6yJ74&t=50s And they could have still been swarmed and overran and all die and get resurrected but it would've been so much cooler. They really got the heavy impact of dragon fire right though, those few flyby's were great. There's quite a bit of arrows being rained down during most of the scenes, but it seems relatively clear that there's a limited # of them that stay lit due to the storm. Plus it's not like they have a whole army of archers to use here. Most Northern fighters are dead (War of the Five Kings and battle of the bastards), the unsullied are way more effective out front, and that's kind of all you are picking from for soldiers. --- One thing I really liked about the episode was Melisandre lighting the trench. I thought they did a great job in that moment capturing the self doubt her character has and giving her a chance to push through it and kind of cement her faith. It's a bit of book context, but in there we get to see how unsure she is about how she's interpreting the messages she receives from the fire and whether or not she's doing the right thing. Though it probably would have been more impactful if she didn't also light the Dothraki swords on fire, but oh well. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13927 Posts
On April 29 2019 22:06 Plansix wrote: There is a reason armies don't fight at night, especially in the era GoT is evoking. The ability to be tactical in a fight were you can barely see is almost non-existent. I was really confused when hey did the firey sword thing. I mean I get it looks cool but anyone thinking about it for a second will realize that it just sentences the Dothraki to death because they won't be able to see anything until they're already dead. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
But that just sort of makes you wonder why the troops without dragon glass get put up front in the battle if they're going to just be useless. But it's also a tough spot for the show I guess, they kind of backed themselves into a corner where there's really nothing you could do with the Dothraki that would at all be satisfying. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10705 Posts
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