On February 23 2014 21:02 Novel wrote: Cool, the opposition erased regional status of russian language in the East Ukraine. Which means that there will be problems with russian cinemas, kindergardens and so on. Yeah, totally right step...
How did they do that? Aren't they in the minority in that part of Ukraine? Is this confirmed?
They have revoked this law http://www.usefoundation.org/view/628 Which mean Polish and Hungarian too, not just Russian. Though only Russian sources for now, went through at 15:16
edit: Svoboda (who Right Sector says is too liberal, you know, the armed thugs 'watching over' parliament) is also advocating revoking Ukrainian citizenship from 'non-Ukrainian' citizens
On February 23 2014 05:32 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country.
Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago.
Who are u to my country to decide what should be here?
Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago. Are you happy now?
I'm sorry for Zeo, and i don't understand why he keeps writing here, under such heavy attacks and ever insults. As i said this thread is too one sided, "alien" opinions got critized and crusified. I telling not because i support him or dont, some things i agree some dont, as in other posters responses, but its just plain example on how people who unable to take a different view, group up against 1 man. Pathetic for TL users i would say.
No one is forcing him to post photoshops of Hitler on the protesters banners and claim that what is currently happening in Ukraine is a Nazi Plot to exterminate Eastern Ukrainians. You can have a reasonable position that sees Timoshenko is as bad as Yanukovich, in terms of actual reforms carried out if not in outright brutality, and that in the short term the Russian deal is much better than the EU, which it is if you ignore the whole concept that EU ascension reforms even without joining EU are an economically positive change.
No one should be shedding tears for Zeo. He has been a nonstop propagandist in this thread, adopting positions that are patently absurd. Hell, he doesn't even bother supporting his ridiculous assertions of fact with anything resembling a legitimate source. I find his posts to be amusing, but I frankly am surprised that he is being allowed to post stuff like he has.
'People that have opinions that are different from my own should not be alowed to post, how anyone can be alowed to disrupt the perfect circle of circlejerk defies reason'.
Please learn to be more tolarant of other people. I read everything everyone has to say in this thread and don't resort to name calling or rant about photoshops in every post. I care deeply about the safety of the people living in eastern Ukraine. That is all.
I haven't taken part in this discussion but I actually considered reporting several of your posts already zeo, the condescending way you use to talk here together with assumptions that you present as facts are very unnerving. If you really read every post in this thread you'll also notice that you weren't the first one to question the opposition (for example Timoshenko), others, like http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=437184¤tpage=65#1295 just did it without insulting everybody on the other side of the fence or without throwing around the word fascist 24/7 while glorifying Russia. I know that you probably think it's okay to call the protesters idiots, retards and nazis, but what you don't seem to understand is that some of the people you talk to here are actual ukranians, with friends and relatives between the protesters, or maybe even protesters themselves and even if they aren't, they are still THEIR people, people who they feel very close to, people who could have easily died from the violence Yanukovich unleashed. So show some goddamn respect already.
On February 23 2014 21:15 Gorsameth wrote: Considering where the poster is from im going to count that up to propaganda until reliable sources are mentioned.
Really? Isn't it racist to assume such things based on nationality?
While some definitions include the discrimination of nationalities under racism, as far as I know most don't, so as long as he doesn't consider russians their own race it's probably not racism. He also didn't criticize an innate fault of russians, just the information that russians are generally provided with by their media, which is mostly controlled by your government as far as I know.
The only people who I am calling Nazi's are these people, seen here honoring fallen SS members in Ukraine:
edit: these people have taken control of the government building for 2 days and already they are trying to ban the party of regions and the communist party. Is eveyone in those parties Yanukovych? No, and yes, a lot of them are probably corrupt, but that doesn't give anyone the right to ban political opponents or give themselves the authority to appoint and sack judges.
On February 23 2014 21:15 Gorsameth wrote: Considering where the poster is from im going to count that up to propaganda until reliable sources are mentioned.
RBC is pretty reliable source. Basically it is business media and they are opinion free. They post mostly facts. Around an hour ago Ukranian Rada cancelled "State language policy" law. That law established russian language status as "regional" in the East Ukraine. 232 deputies vote for it (226 needed).
Its nothing personal against you. Russian media isnt known for its neutrality, and yes a lot of western media can be just as bad, Its just that with all the propaganda flying around in this thread im weary of accepting people making random statements without sources like that. Sorry if I offended you. Didn't mean to.
Oddly enough Klitschko could actually be a good leader for the Ukraine, from what I saw he actually cares about his country and he is less likely to be susceptible for corruption compared to other competitors. He could have a stabilizing influence. Sadly he is not enough of a charismatic populist or cunning politician to convince people in an election.
On February 23 2014 22:10 Maenander wrote: Oddly enough Klitschko could actually be a good leader for the Ukraine, from what I saw he actually cares about his country and he is less likely to be susceptible for corruption compared to other competitors. He could have a stabilizing influence. Sadly he is not enough of a charismatic populist or cunning politician to convince people in an election.
he was the leading candidate up until now. But the deal with Yanukovich will have hurt him.
About the language law. There was a huge scandal surrounding it's adoption in 2012. Yanukovich party cheated quite a bit to have it passed (some MPs from his party acknowladged that) and violated the agreements with the opposition and neutral factions. Lytvyn, the speaker of the Parliament, tendered his resignation on 4 July 2012 (next day after it was passed), but it was denied. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine Many people believe the law was passed to satisfy Putin's demands. On 9 February 2013 the authors of the 2012 language law, Serhiy Kivalov and Vadym Kolesnichenko, where awarded the "Medal of Pushkin" by Russian President Vladimir Putin for "great contribution to the preservation and promotion of the Russian language and culture abroad".
I don't understand Russian, but I understand dates. Please note that video is well before the Euromaiden protests.
Perhaps neonazi groups are in Ukraine, but they are everywhere in the world (even Mongolia bizzarely). Your description that these are the people of Euromaiden is intended to mislead to the true nature of the video. Whatever the video describes, it not related to Euromaiden.
Just like Zeo's previous photos of armed people (dated not Euromaiden either) or obviously photoshopped (like the one of a poster of Hitler being hung over a government building).
It's no wonder people describe him as unreliable. It has nothing to do with being alone with is interpretation of events, but rather that the information he has provided are covered in rhetoric (Americans are violent towards protestors too!) or are patently falsified.
Still - after 2004, there were some problems with facilities using Russian Language in East Ukraine. I visited friends in Sevastopol in 2011 and witnessed it myself. And language law kinda helped it. Also - cancelled law was actually pretty democratic and fair. Ukranian language not in risk anymore and do not need artificial aid. I don't really see reasons to impose ukranian language as the only one in East Ukraine. Even in Russia we have multiple regional language. And about Putin (whom I consider criminally incompitent in domestic policy) and our general goverment. Do not demonize them. Putin isn't some mastermind who controlled Yanukovich through KGB or some shit. Yanukovich was independant and pretty anoying for Russia as well. In fact Russian stance on Ukraine decided by 2-3 peoples (Lavrov + 2 Presidents advisors on Ukraine). Putin might be the symbol, but he isn't deciding much, excluding his personal fields of interest like Sochi and being referee between Kremlin factions.
I never said the video was from the protests, just that the people shown in the video are a major force in the 'protests'. I am sure you made an honest mistake. A forumer stated that pictures of rioters with firearms were from a long time ago, I showed him the picture, with an article that goes with it explaining context from a western media source. That is the end of that. Stop beliveing people that say 'trust me' after every post.
As for the Hitler picture, I have apologised for the mistake, it was a picture of Bandera. Please look up Bandera on wikipedia.
On February 23 2014 05:32 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country.
Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago.
Maybe, but Lenin was also the guy who before Soviet's captured Kiev turned Kharkiv into the capital of the Ukraine SSR and then the Communists spend billions to make it the industrial heartland of Ukraine. I think people who are busy pulling down statutes when real reforms havent even began are the kind of idiots Ukrainian reformists dont need on their side.
can I ask you how much is your national independence worth?
Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb.
Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, we got basically none, maybe just a few exceptions.
Please stop. I agree with you on many points but in this case you are wrong. Lets look at the initial post: "Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country." Destroying public statues is a one thing, but trying to destroy one in private property is an entirely different issue. Also, destroying it does nothing but fuels the aggression and gives local government in eastern Ukraine more material to strengthen their propaganda. cSc.Dav1oN is right in this case. To think about it, even public statues can be left alone for now in eastern Ukraine, simply to avoid creating more tension in those areas. We can alway remove them later.
On February 23 2014 11:50 mahrgell wrote: ... But this would have required a slower approach to the things... Yes, an approach that does not throw away the deal made 2 days ago. Yes, maybe it would have meant that elections would have happened in december instead of may.... It would have required to actually really negotiate with yanokovitch... He would lose the elections anyway... But that way even his supporters or Russia would have no way to doubt the legitimacy of the process. (and maybe until then some more reasonable alternatives then tymoshenko would have shown up...) ...
While rest of your post is sound, you are wrong about opposition breaking the agreement. Yanukovich is the one who broke it. He had to cooperate with opposition and parliament by signing laws that require his sign, but he fled from Kiev at the evening of the same day when the deal was signed. He did it without telling anyone and even tried to flee from Ukraine.
I thought that opposition broke the the agreement first. If Yanukovich really didn't intend to respect the deal then my faith in protesters is restored. Now I'm only worried about separatists from East and Crimea.
On February 23 2014 15:13 Greem wrote: Well aparently Lenin isn't the only "victim" , i dont know if this is certain but a friend of mine just showed me this image + Show Spoiler +
Its Lvov, or Lviv, and they bringing down a statue of soviet soldier. I guess they taking the hatred to another level.
Your fried is either a troll or he doesn't know his sources. Look at the watermark in the right low corner of the picture, pikabu.ru is Russian imageboard. Place where photoshops and trolling is the usual thing. So I wouldn't take this image as anything worthy of attention.
On February 24 2014 00:12 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
I don't understand Russian, but I understand dates. Please note that video is well before the Euromaiden protests.
Perhaps neonazi groups are in Ukraine, but they are everywhere in the world (even Mongolia bizzarely). Your description that these are the people of Euromaiden is intended to mislead to the true nature of the video. Whatever the video describes, it not related to Euromaiden.
Just like Zeo's previous photos of armed people (dated not Euromaiden either) or obviously photoshopped (like the one of a poster of Hitler being hung over a government building).
It's no wonder people describe him as unreliable. It has nothing to do with being alone with is interpretation of events, but rather that the information he has provided are covered in rhetoric (Americans are violent towards protestors too!) or are patently falsified.
That video is recorded from "НТВ" which is a Russian national channel, not surprisingly it tries to show everything in a light that would be most convenient to the governmental position. Also, people who are being reburied were local soldiers rather than German soldiers. So even though I don't agree with the surrounding ceremony, reburying them is an entirely normal and civil thing.
I would be really surprised if that law is passed. It is probably some kind of PR for the deputy who proposed it. New government needs Party of Regions and Communist Party to have a functioning parliament. Also, passing it would just antagonize way too much people in eastern regions, they are not that stupid to adopt it.
I understood the deal between opposition and Janukovitsch ( in wich he would have been president until DEC 2014, if not reelected).
But how the hell did things escalate so quickly:
- Maidan denied the deal (even if the leaders accepted, okay Janukovitsch would still be president) - Domestic Secretary quit. - Police withdraw from Kiev/Maidan within hours - Police forces allied with Maidan - Janukovitsch fled Kiev ( WHY Did he lost hope to conserve his power, did his "friends" dropped him? ) - Parlamt = Maidan, everything gets mixed up - Janukovitsch removed - Timotschenko released, all charges dropped (WHY ? She IS a criminal opportunist who did her part to ruin the country, backstab her political partners to get more power ......)
- ......
Everything went from chaotic into a very clear direction:
1.Opposition leades weakend by meetings and agreement with hated Janukovitsch. 2. Janukovitsch driven from Kiev 3. Power Vacuum filled by "pro Timotschenko politicians (president of parlament) 4. Laws passed rapidly 5. Timoschenko freed, ready to be gasqueen of ukraine again....
Anyway, Ukraine should get help from EU, to pass a "dictator" save law and constitution. Not saying they should join EU.
On February 24 2014 01:46 darkness wrote: Some people in Bulgaria have painted the Soviet army statue like this to support Ukraine:
This is from today. If you ask why we still have such a statue, then this is a really good question that needs to be pointed to ex-communists.
Hey, look on the bright side. I doubt that any of those statutes is more shameful than the one sitting in Berlin.
Is it Hitler or Karl Marx? I'm not aware of their statues.
Yes i can confirm, Hitler statues everywhere here.
On February 24 2014 02:09 xDaunt wrote: The Soviet war memorial on the road to the Brandenburg Gate from West Berlin.
Well one-hundred thousand Soviets died just during the battle of Berlin, so I think it's okay that they get a memorial.(Also the statue shows a Soviet soldier with a German child in his hands over a broken swastika,what's so shameful about that?)
On February 24 2014 02:09 xDaunt wrote: The Soviet war memorial on the road to the Brandenburg Gate from West Berlin.
Well one-hundred thousand Soviets died just during the battle of Berlin, so I think it's okay that they get a memorial.(Also the statue shows a Soviet soldier with a German child in his hands over a broken swastika,what's so shameful about that?)
I don't want to derail the thread, but let's just say that Americans with their current sense of national pride would never tolerate something like that being on American soil, much less in the capital. Germans obviously have a very different perspective given their history and how they have been educating their children for several generations now.
EPT![[image loading]](http://s5.pikabu.ru/post_img/2014/02/23/4/1393126096_710815823.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://images.ibox.bg/2014/02/23/ggjfjk/430x287.jpg)
