On February 24 2014 04:37 Cheerio wrote: A video from the inside of the house of one of the top Yanukovich allies, Pshonka, Prosecutor General. From 1:30
where is her accent from? sounds so weird.
looks typical Ukrainian to me, she is probably not from Western Ukraine though.
On February 24 2014 04:37 Cheerio wrote: A video from the inside of the house of one of the top Yanukovich allies, Pshonka, Prosecutor General. From 1:30 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ZpUYcYX8c
where is her accent from? sounds so weird.
looks typical Ukrainian to me, she is probably not from Western Ukraine though.
Seriously? She sounds like someone from my grandparents village. And I am from the most provincial province there is in Ukraine.
On February 24 2014 05:47 Cheerio wrote: Some oligarhs (most importantly Ahmetov and Kolomoyskiy, and Poroshenko naturally) and local high-ranked Eastern Ukraine officials claimed they would not allow for the separation of Ukraine.
Why be a tiny fish in Putins Russia and be eaten by Igor Sechin when you can be a mighty fish in Ukraine
So is Ukraine going to make a new constitution or just have new elections? Making new constitutions is always interesting, though there's not a lot of innovation in forms of government.
Almost all killed activists were mourned this way. So despite it's victory over Yanukovich yesterday, there were mostly tears for Euromaidan rather than joy since then.
This is a good and accurate article. Only the ending of the last paragraph is false. Party of Regions won't collapse anytime soon, their grip on eastern regions and Crimea is too strong. They control all local mass media, institutions both private and governmental, etc. Additionally, many people in those regions watch Russian tv channels. So even if we assume that "Party of Regions" disbands soon, they will just make another party with different name but the same essence.
The best thing we can hope for is that people there would stop watching tv and reading local newspapers and start getting all their information from the internet, from various independent sources. That way they at least would know the real picture. But this is rather unlikely to happen.
On February 23 2014 05:32 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country.
Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago.
Maybe, but Lenin was also the guy who before Soviet's captured Kiev turned Kharkiv into the capital of the Ukraine SSR and then the Communists spend billions to make it the industrial heartland of Ukraine. I think people who are busy pulling down statutes when real reforms havent even began are the kind of idiots Ukrainian reformists dont need on their side.
can I ask you how much is your national independence worth?
Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb.
Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that.
Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism.
No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.
so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.
The Crimean Prime Minister (yes, they have a PM due to their special status) stated they recognize Verhovna Rada's latest decisions and the officials they installed lately. I guess it's over now.
This is a good and accurate article. Only the ending of the last paragraph is false. Party of Regions won't collapse anytime soon, their grip on eastern regions and Crimea is too strong. They control all local mass media, institutions both private and governmental, etc. Additionally, many people in those regions watch Russian tv channels. So even if we assume that "Party of Regions" disbands soon, they will just make another party with different name but the same essence.
The best thing we can hope for is that people there would stop watching tv and reading local newspapers and start getting all their information from the internet, from various independent sources. That way they at least would know the real picture. But this is rather unlikely to happen.
I am going to take a guess here, you know 0 about russian TV. They actually report news, give you all the information and all the sides to the story, unlike most of the western media outlets.
This is a good and accurate article. Only the ending of the last paragraph is false. Party of Regions won't collapse anytime soon, their grip on eastern regions and Crimea is too strong. They control all local mass media, institutions both private and governmental, etc. Additionally, many people in those regions watch Russian tv channels. So even if we assume that "Party of Regions" disbands soon, they will just make another party with different name but the same essence.
The best thing we can hope for is that people there would stop watching tv and reading local newspapers and start getting all their information from the internet, from various independent sources. That way they at least would know the real picture. But this is rather unlikely to happen.
I am going to take a guess here, you know 0 about russian TV. They actually report news, give you all the information and all the sides to the story, unlike most of the western media outlets.
I'm not actually sure if you're being sarcastic or not.
This is a good and accurate article. Only the ending of the last paragraph is false. Party of Regions won't collapse anytime soon, their grip on eastern regions and Crimea is too strong. They control all local mass media, institutions both private and governmental, etc. Additionally, many people in those regions watch Russian tv channels. So even if we assume that "Party of Regions" disbands soon, they will just make another party with different name but the same essence.
The best thing we can hope for is that people there would stop watching tv and reading local newspapers and start getting all their information from the internet, from various independent sources. That way they at least would know the real picture. But this is rather unlikely to happen.
I am going to take a guess here, you know 0 about russian TV. They actually report news, give you all the information and all the sides to the story, unlike most of the western media outlets.
Someone from USA is telling me that I don't know what is shown in Russian news, oh the irony. Do you know where I live and what I watch to tell me that? No? Then stop making stupid statements. Also, if you really think that their national channels (aka the most popular and watched channels) do "give you all the information and all the sides to the story" then you hadn't watched anything they tell about the recent events in Ukraine.
Although, I don't watch any USA media, aside from some occasional movies. So maybe you have it even worse, don't know.
On February 23 2014 05:32 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country.
Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago.
Maybe, but Lenin was also the guy who before Soviet's captured Kiev turned Kharkiv into the capital of the Ukraine SSR and then the Communists spend billions to make it the industrial heartland of Ukraine. I think people who are busy pulling down statutes when real reforms havent even began are the kind of idiots Ukrainian reformists dont need on their side.
can I ask you how much is your national independence worth?
Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb.
Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that.
Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism.
No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.
so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.
somehow I missed it. What are you talking about?
Hmelnitsky, great hero ukrainian nationalism was also a massive antisemite whose troops committed mass crimes against Jews.
On February 24 2014 09:59 zlefin wrote: So is Ukraine going to make a new constitution or just have new elections? Making new constitutions is always interesting, though there's not a lot of innovation in forms of government.
They already have a constitution they changed in 2004 that the country was governed under for 6 years, first move by Yanukovich once he was elected was to force the constitutional court to overturn the changes, reverting to the original constitution that had a strong presidency at the apex.
Doesn't sound like a terribly robust constitution if it can be disrupted that easily; though words on paper do have their limits. I don't know enough about Ukraine to design a constitution that would really work well there.
On February 23 2014 05:37 DeepElemBlues wrote: [quote]
Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago.
Maybe, but Lenin was also the guy who before Soviet's captured Kiev turned Kharkiv into the capital of the Ukraine SSR and then the Communists spend billions to make it the industrial heartland of Ukraine. I think people who are busy pulling down statutes when real reforms havent even began are the kind of idiots Ukrainian reformists dont need on their side.
can I ask you how much is your national independence worth?
Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb.
Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that.
Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism.
No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.
so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.
somehow I missed it. What are you talking about?
Hmelnitsky, great hero ukrainian nationalism was also a massive antisemite whose troops committed mass crimes against Jews.
If we're going to disqualify historical national heroes because they were also bloodthirsty, bigots or both we're gonna have about zero national heroes who were born before 1950 for any country you can name.
On February 24 2014 14:15 zlefin wrote: Doesn't sound like a terribly robust constitution if it can be disrupted that easily; though words on paper do have their limits. I don't know enough about Ukraine to design a constitution that would really work well there.
Do you know the details of how it was disrupted or are you just assuming it was an "easy" process?
On February 24 2014 14:15 zlefin wrote: Doesn't sound like a terribly robust constitution if it can be disrupted that easily; though words on paper do have their limits. I don't know enough about Ukraine to design a constitution that would really work well there.
At first I was like, what does this actually mean? Then I realized that you're assuming due process. No, the judges were coerced into making that ruling, with 4 judges retiring in protest, so Yanukovich could get exactly the verdict he needed. There was nothing legitimate and legal about it. So, no, the constitution isn't to blame, it's the corrupt government.
On February 23 2014 05:32 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Bunch of idiots wants to crush a statue of young Lenin in one of the biggest institutes of Kharkov, those statue completely belongs to institute. Also has nothing common with current state in country.
Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago.
Maybe, but Lenin was also the guy who before Soviet's captured Kiev turned Kharkiv into the capital of the Ukraine SSR and then the Communists spend billions to make it the industrial heartland of Ukraine. I think people who are busy pulling down statutes when real reforms havent even began are the kind of idiots Ukrainian reformists dont need on their side.
can I ask you how much is your national independence worth?
Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb.
Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that.
Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism.
No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.
so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.
somehow I missed it. What are you talking about?
We are talking about monuments and statues, u stated that Lenin stands in every city/town on the central streets, which is real, but also, we do have a dozens of other monuments aswell as statues which are also very big and have a very huge cultural value. Our Lenin is situated on Ploshad Svobody (The square of freedom + Show Spoiler +
) which means he has nothing common in with socialism and imperialism, he has a huge cultural meaning, his statue in simply most known. For example, couples of statues which situated pretty close to Lenin are: Taras Shevchenko monument + Show Spoiler +
(some may call him as the very best ukraininan poet and writer) which is also very well knows and it stands in Shevchenko's part right next to Ploshad Svobody, also in those park we do have a statue (Angel of Freedom + Show Spoiler +
), we goes further down the Sumskaya street a bit, and comes closer to Poshad Constitucyy (The square of constitution) and interesting fact that it changed gradually few years ago, it changed from soviet sculpture of a warrior liberator + Show Spoiler +
to a modern square with a statue symbolized a freedom and constituton + Show Spoiler +
. And interesting fact about the very last square I described, as u can see on the image, there are couple of tanks been there with monument, nothing happened to them, cause those stuff also have a pretty big cultural meaning, all the armors been replaced a bit but the statue of soldier liberator changed it's place much further (we used to have like 3 or 4 tanks on those square, also a british one from the first world war, a soviet T-34 and a couple of cannons from different centuries).
I hope I clarified something about imperialism symbols and soviet monument in our city, as you see we do have a very different types of monument and every single sculpture has a very unique meaning to our past and present, there is no way we should destroy it, moreover we should remain it's clean and fine! The only thing we can do Lenin is to replace his statue, but I'm not sure what must be on his place. So for me it's fine and I don't see any reason why it should be destroyed of headcutted, I don't wanna see vandalism on my city.
EPT
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