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On February 24 2014 18:23 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2014 12:17 Cheerio wrote:On February 23 2014 14:37 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 14:07 Cheerio wrote:On February 23 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 12:15 Cheerio wrote:On February 23 2014 12:00 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 10:48 Cheerio wrote:On February 23 2014 05:42 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 05:37 DeepElemBlues wrote:
[quote]
Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago. Maybe, but Lenin was also the guy who before Soviet's captured Kiev turned Kharkiv into the capital of the Ukraine SSR and then the Communists spend billions to make it the industrial heartland of Ukraine. I think people who are busy pulling down statutes when real reforms havent even began are the kind of idiots Ukrainian reformists dont need on their side. can I ask you how much is your national independence worth? Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb. Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that. Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism. No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares. so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna. somehow I missed it. What are you talking about? We are talking about monuments and statues, u stated that Lenin stands in every city/town on the central streets, which is real, but also, we do have a dozens of other monuments aswell as statues which are also very big and have a very huge cultural value. Our Lenin is situated on Ploshad Svobody (The square of freedom + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +) which means he has nothing common in with socialism and imperialism, he has a huge cultural meaning, his statue in simply most known. For example, couples of statues which situated pretty close to Lenin are: Taras Shevchenko monument + Show Spoiler +, + Show Spoiler + (some may call him as the very best ukraininan poet and writer) which is also very well knows and it stands in Shevchenko's part right next to Ploshad Svobody, also in those park we do have a statue (Angel of Freedom + Show Spoiler +), we goes further down the Sumskaya street a bit, and comes closer to Poshad Constitucyy (The square of constitution) and interesting fact that it changed gradually few years ago, it changed from soviet sculpture of a warrior liberator + Show Spoiler + to a modern square with a statue symbolized a freedom and constituton + Show Spoiler +, + Show Spoiler +. And interesting fact about the very last square I described, as u can see on the image, there are couple of tanks been there with monument, nothing happened to them, cause those stuff also have a pretty big cultural meaning, all the armors been replaced a bit but the statue of soldier liberator changed it's place much further (we used to have like 3 or 4 tanks on those square, also a british one from the first world war, a soviet T-34 and a couple of cannons from different centuries). I hope I clarified something about imperialism symbols and soviet monument in our city, as you see we do have a very different types of monument and every single sculpture has a very unique meaning to our past and present, there is no way we should destroy it, moreover we should remain it's clean and fine! The only thing we can do Lenin is to replace his statue, but I'm not sure what must be on his place. So for me it's fine and I don't see any reason why it should be destroyed of headcutted, I don't wanna see vandalism on my city.
If they wanna replace it with so called "heroes of the maidan" , this subject should be brought on city referendum, in democratic way, because right now a buch of people go into multimilion city when everybody is asleep and take it down just because they decided so. This shows how democratic they are assuming stuff for others.
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I'd like to point out that you're engaging with Zeo, take anything he says with a grain of salt.
If you look at the FT article posted above, it's actually quite remarkable. The EU is ready to send billions of euros in aid, from the EU Commission budget and from member states, as long as the IMF deal goes through as well. As the IMF requires reform, it's a small step towards EU integration as a whole. I would have never predicted the EU to provide financial incentives like this a month ago.
The IMF conditions aren't actually that bad. Sure, they're not the "let's spend our way out of the crisis" way, which Ukraine absolutely cannot afford, but they do generally manage to put the economy back on track. Consider, for example, South Korea in 1997. They got into a liquidity problem, had to borrow from the IMF and took on major reforms. For 2 years they had a major crisis and then returned to prosperous growth. Economists argue whether different policy decisions could have taken South Korea out of the crisis with less human suffering, but no-one claims the IMF did not lead South Korea out of the crisis.
Considering that Russia is doing its best to mess up those reforms, a quick, even if painful, reform process is better than a protracted and mitigated one which gives Russia more time to interfere. Consider it the Polish way of reform.
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On February 24 2014 21:01 RvB wrote:
The financial trouble isn't because of thw revolution. Even if the deal with Russia had gone through it would have been a bandaid fix and it doesn't come for free either.
Agree. There's a reason why financial situation in Ukraine got so much worse during last 2-3 years than it was before. And increased scale of corruption is the name of that reason. Out government was always stealing, but its last incarnation truly beat all possible records.
They even started to close down schools and hospitals during last 2 years and called it a "reorganization". Which says a lot because in independent Ukraine (since 1991) it never happened before on a nationally wide scale. Another indicator is that Ukrainian national debt has doubled during last 3 years.
So Ukraine is already in a financial hole. But if, and this is very large if, our government will stop stealing for at least a while we may have a chance to make that hole less deep.
Edit: Before you mention it, global economic crisis has contributed too, no doubt. But we got hit by it at the end of 2008 and suffered during most of 2009. At the end of 2009, beginning of 2010 our economy has stabilized somewhat already, as far as I remember. So this wasn't the main reason.
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On divisions in Crimea:
SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine—They signed up one-by-one, hundreds of Russian-speaking men pledging to repel the ascendant pro-Europe uprising in Kiev from any attempt to infiltrate their city.
They handed over their cellphone numbers for registration and divided into brigades. Commanders in fatigues inspected the assembled troops—a ragtag militia of mostly middle-aged men. Some competed to see who could assemble and disassemble a Kalashnikov the fastest.
This is the capital of Crimea, a peninsula dominated by ethnic Russians that juts out from Ukraine's south into the Black Sea. The region is the last bastion of Ukraine largely impervious to the uprising on Kiev's Independence Square. Some ethnic Russians here, such as those who showed up to register in Simferopol on Sunday, have started forming militias as a show of strength.
Now that the protest movement has emerged victorious—President Viktor Yanukovych has fled the capital, the opposition has control of Kiev's parliament and demonstrators have toppled statues of Lenin around the country to protest Russian influence—people here are on edge.
Pro-Russia Ukrainian activists gathered on Sunday in a show of strength in Crimea's capital of Simferopol. Reuters
"What if they come to us like they did [in other Ukrainian cities] and try to pull down our Lenin?" said Yulia Anisimova, a 30-year-old lawyer who was organizing women at Sunday's meeting into a medical brigade. "We hope that won't happen, but we want to be prepared." Echoing the Kremlin position, she said what happened last week in Kiev was a coup.
Crimea is an example of the difficulties Ukraine faces as it looks to form a united future. The peninsula—long a summer destination for the czars—belonged to Russia until 1954, when Soviet authorities transferred the region to the then-Soviet republic of Ukraine.
It remained part of independent Ukraine after the Soviet Union's collapse in 1991.
Today, more than half the population of about 2 million is ethnic Russians, many of them hostile to the Ukrainian nationalists from the country's west who played a critical role in Kiev's protest movement. Even half a century later, many in neighboring Russia lament losing Crimea, which some still describe as Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev's "present" to his Ukrainian homeland. In a recent poll, more than half of Russians said they consider Crimea part of Russia.
Anatoly Mogilyov, Crimea's prime minister and a member of Mr. Yanukovych's party, on Sunday moved to stem panic and defuse secession talk. He said he is prepared to recognize Ukraine's parliament, now controlled by the opposition, and distanced himself from Mr. Yanukovych.
"Both the government and the opposition are guilty for what has happened," he said. "The government is guilty of taking actions that caused dissatisfaction among a large swath of the population. The opposition is guilty of allowing the extreme radicalism of certain supporters to become part of their wave of demands, which led to the tragedy that occurred."
To ensure safety, the local government in Crimea has doubled the number of police patrolling the streets in Crimea and stepped up control over military installations, he said.
Though some in Crimea have called for Russia to rescue them from the clutches of the opposition in Kiev, the idea of Crimea rejoining Russia or seceding divides locals, even ethnic Russians.
"I want Crimea to be more independent," said 60-year-old doctor Vladimir Rodionov, who signed up to join the militia's medical brigade. But Mr. Rodionov, who described Kiev protesters as bandits, says he doesn't want Crimea to be ruled by President Vladimir Putin.
The violence that exploded in Kiev late last week sent a wave of panic through Crimea. In the midst of the chaos, Vladimir Konstantinov, the regional parliament speaker and a member of Mr. Yanukovych's party, caused a stir when he suggested Crimea would secede and attempt to unite with Russia in the event of a total collapse of central power in Kiev. Crimeans lined up at ATMS to take money out of their accounts and rushed to grocery stores to stock up on staples. Many ATMS now have reduced daily withdrawal limits. Not everyone in Crimea is against the protesters. The Crimean Tatars, who account for more than 10% of the population, have been vigorous supporters of the protest movement on Kiev's Independence Square.
As thousands in Ukraine's capital turned out to mourn the dead protesters, people in Crimea were doing the opposite. Droves of Crimeans, including local leaders, turned out in Simferopol with red flowers Saturday to mourn two riot police from the region who died in the Ukrainian capital's clashes.
Thousands of Crimeans denounced the opposition protests and waved Russian flags in a mass meeting on Sunday in Sevastopol, the Crimean city that has been home to Russia's Black Sea fleet for centuries. They also selected a de facto mayor, even though Kiev has long appointed the city's leader.
A woman walks past burned trucks near parliament house in Kiev on Sunday. Reuters
They gathered by the thousands across town from the militia organizers in Simferopol Sunday and said officials talking about secession should be held criminally liable. From the podium, their leader demanded that Simferopol tear down its Lenin statue.
"We want our children to live in a normal country where they will feel equal to others and where the government cares about the people and not lining its pockets," said Server Abdulayev, a 45-year-old businessman who came to the rally from Stary Krym.
The Crimean Tatars recall their deportation from the peninsula to Central Asia under Stalin, a tragedy they associate with Moscow's rule, he said.
Mr. Abdulayev also pointed out that not everyone in Crimea is pro-Russia or against the opposition. "There are other people here," he said. "The Crimean Tatars, the Ukrainians. We support our own way."
Source.
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On February 24 2014 21:20 Ghanburighan wrote:
I'd like to point out that you're engaging with Zeo, take anything he says with a grain of salt.
If you look at the FT article posted above, it's actually quite remarkable. The EU is ready to send billions of euros in aid, from the EU Commission budget and from member states, as long as the IMF deal goes through as well. As the IMF requires reform, it's a small step towards EU integration as a whole. I would have never predicted the EU to provide financial incentives like this a month ago.
The IMF conditions aren't actually that bad. Sure, they're not the "let's spend our way out of the crisis" way, which Ukraine absolutely cannot afford, but they do generally manage to put the economy back on track. Consider, for example, South Korea in 1997. They got into a liquidity problem, had to borrow from the IMF and took on major reforms. For 2 years they had a major crisis and then returned to prosperous growth. Economists argue whether different policy decisions could have taken South Korea out of the crisis with less human suffering, but no-one claims the IMF did not lead South Korea out of the crisis.
Considering that Russia is doing its best to mess up those reforms, a quick, even if painful, reform process is better than a protracted and mitigated one which gives Russia more time to interfere. Consider it the Polish way of reform.
The conditions from the EU and IMF are the same for several years now! There is nothing new about it. And Tymoshennko and Yanukovitch have both declined those conditions, and instead they took the gasdeal (tymoshenko) and the russian bandaid (yanukovitch)
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On February 24 2014 21:20 Ghanburighan wrote:
I'd like to point out that you're engaging with Zeo, take anything he says with a grain of salt.
If you look at the FT article posted above, it's actually quite remarkable. The EU is ready to send billions of euros in aid, from the EU Commission budget and from member states, as long as the IMF deal goes through as well. As the IMF requires reform, it's a small step towards EU integration as a whole. I would have never predicted the EU to provide financial incentives like this a month ago.
The IMF conditions aren't actually that bad. Sure, they're not the "let's spend our way out of the crisis" way, which Ukraine absolutely cannot afford, but they do generally manage to put the economy back on track. Consider, for example, South Korea in 1997. They got into a liquidity problem, had to borrow from the IMF and took on major reforms. For 2 years they had a major crisis and then returned to prosperous growth. Economists argue whether different policy decisions could have taken South Korea out of the crisis with less human suffering, but no-one claims the IMF did not lead South Korea out of the crisis.
Considering that Russia is doing its best to mess up those reforms, a quick, even if painful, reform process is better than a protracted and mitigated one which gives Russia more time to interfere. Consider it the Polish way of reform.
Absolutely. However, one of the primary demands from EU is reducing the gas subsidies. I have seen a number at about 80 % of the cost of russian gas getting removed before the gas reach the users. It has been mentioned before, but it can be because they are "stealing" more gas from Russia than they pay for as has happened before, but it can also be subsidies or both. Either way, such a place has a massive moneyflow and is therefore a good place to siphon money out without it getting noticed. IMF wants the subsidies reduced, to reduce the chance of corruption eating part of the flow. For the ukrainian people that would be a brutal price-increase. Add the demands for "reforming" the pensions and it will be a double slap in the head for some elder people. While EU is sending conditional money to help with the state budget problem, there will be a price to pay for the ukrainian people. At least untill the economy starts to turn.
Source "heating subsidies"
Source "pension reform"
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I think canceling official status of non Ukrainian languages right now is very moronic but please don't exaggerate the meaning of this move. Every few months our media report about quarrels related to Polish language in Germany or Lithuania but it doesn't stop us from having friendly relations with those countries. It's just a minor inconvenience.
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radiatoren explained the problem quite well.
Another thing to add is, that before 2004 Ukraine already had those gas troubles. But back then, in all negotiations, they were able to blackmail Europe and Russia, as they had the control over the main gas pipeline from Russia to Europe. This has drastically changed. When German chancellor Schroeder finally made the deal with Putin and the Baltic nations about the new pipeline through the Baltic Sea, Ukraine lost most of it's bargaining position. Suddenly threatening to shut down the pipeline is mostly harming themselves, and to some degree Poland (as the mostly use the Ukrainian pipeline, not the Baltic one, which leads directly to Germany), but central Europe, including the major economic powers in the EU do not care about it as much anymore. Adapting to this new situation is obviously a huge issue for the Ukraine. With the system draining so much money into it's own pocket, this back then was compensated by their unique position as a middlesman, but without this advantage, the corruption prevents any reasonable economic decisions and development. And neither Tymoshenko nor Yanukovich made any changes to that system and in the end both fell back to begging Russia for money...
PS:
But don't worry, leading politicians working for their own pocket, is also known in Europe. Guess who was one of the leading managers of the Baltic pipeline project.
Chancellor Schroder, after he lost the election, was almost immediately getting the job... Receiving a much better pay then he got before as chancellor. (German chancellor receives 250k Euro per year...  )
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On February 24 2014 21:08 Greem wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2014 18:23 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On February 24 2014 12:17 Cheerio wrote:On February 23 2014 14:37 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 14:07 Cheerio wrote:On February 23 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 12:15 Cheerio wrote:On February 23 2014 12:00 Sub40APM wrote:On February 23 2014 10:48 Cheerio wrote:On February 23 2014 05:42 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
Maybe, but Lenin was also the guy who before Soviet's captured Kiev turned Kharkiv into the capital of the Ukraine SSR and then the Communists spend billions to make it the industrial heartland of Ukraine. I think people who are busy pulling down statutes when real reforms havent even began are the kind of idiots Ukrainian reformists dont need on their side. can I ask you how much is your national independence worth? Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb. Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that. Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism. No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares. so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna. somehow I missed it. What are you talking about? We are talking about monuments and statues, u stated that Lenin stands in every city/town on the central streets, which is real, but also, we do have a dozens of other monuments aswell as statues which are also very big and have a very huge cultural value. Our Lenin is situated on Ploshad Svobody (The square of freedom + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler +) which means he has nothing common in with socialism and imperialism, he has a huge cultural meaning, his statue in simply most known. For example, couples of statues which situated pretty close to Lenin are: Taras Shevchenko monument + Show Spoiler +, + Show Spoiler + (some may call him as the very best ukraininan poet and writer) which is also very well knows and it stands in Shevchenko's part right next to Ploshad Svobody, also in those park we do have a statue (Angel of Freedom + Show Spoiler +), we goes further down the Sumskaya street a bit, and comes closer to Poshad Constitucyy (The square of constitution) and interesting fact that it changed gradually few years ago, it changed from soviet sculpture of a warrior liberator + Show Spoiler + to a modern square with a statue symbolized a freedom and constituton + Show Spoiler +, + Show Spoiler +. And interesting fact about the very last square I described, as u can see on the image, there are couple of tanks been there with monument, nothing happened to them, cause those stuff also have a pretty big cultural meaning, all the armors been replaced a bit but the statue of soldier liberator changed it's place much further (we used to have like 3 or 4 tanks on those square, also a british one from the first world war, a soviet T-34 and a couple of cannons from different centuries). I hope I clarified something about imperialism symbols and soviet monument in our city, as you see we do have a very different types of monument and every single sculpture has a very unique meaning to our past and present, there is no way we should destroy it, moreover we should remain it's clean and fine! The only thing we can do Lenin is to replace his statue, but I'm not sure what must be on his place. So for me it's fine and I don't see any reason why it should be destroyed of headcutted, I don't wanna see vandalism on my city. If they wanna replace it with so called "heroes of the maidan" , this subject should be brought on city referendum, in democratic way, because right now a buch of people go into multimilion city when everybody is asleep and take it down just because they decided so. This shows how democratic they are assuming stuff for others.
Yea, "democratic"... Heroes of the maidan sounds pretty ironic to me, I would say Pawns of the maidan...People died to switch one thief to another. Besides a bunch of ppl who gonna try to take down statues, governmental buildings shoud be jailed at least.
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I think I've now realised some of the reasons why Russians and russophiles describe protests (not only in Ukraine) as fascist, radical or whatever word they pick. It's simply because they came to power this way (in 1944 in Bulgaria). They just think if they do it this way, then *everybody* does it. Sore losers. 
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On February 24 2014 22:39 darkness wrote:I think I've now realised some of the reasons why Russians and russophiles describe protests (not only in Ukraine) as fascist, radical or whatever word they pick. It's simply because they came to power this way (in 1944 in Bulgaria). They just think if they do it this way, then *everybody* does it. Sore losers.
Not sure if serious...
+ Show Spoiler +This is not a symbol from Nazi Germany: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xMKbAjv.jpg) 14 does not mean "We must secure the existance of our people and a future for white children." 88 does not mean Hiel Hitler ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ncoc3K1.jpg) This is not the headquarters of Svoboda, and that is not a white pride symbol behind them: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xxjx2IV.jpg) These people arn't thugs wearing neo-nazi symbols ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vbswTNo.jpg) This is not a member of Svoboda reenacting the burial of fallen Nazi soldiers in the fight against the Soviet Union: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/b7CRI87.jpg) This is not a map of how much of a problem Svoboda is in Ukrainian society: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/VQQyqYu.png)
It would be silly to say all the protesters are fascists, no one is saying that. But the extremists are the ones now armed and 'patrolling' the streets. When a member of Right Sector took the microphone away from Klitschko and pointed to the corner implying where his place was its more than evident who is running the show now
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When (and where) do you think they'll find Yanukovych? I wonder how long and how far can he run before he's found.
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On February 24 2014 23:24 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2014 22:39 darkness wrote:I think I've now realised some of the reasons why Russians and russophiles describe protests (not only in Ukraine) as fascist, radical or whatever word they pick. It's simply because they came to power this way (in 1944 in Bulgaria). They just think if they do it this way, then *everybody* does it. Sore losers. Not sure if serious... + Show Spoiler +This is not a symbol from Nazi Germany: 14 does not mean "We must secure the existance of our people and a future for white children." 88 does not mean Hiel Hitler This is not the headquarters of Svoboda, and that is not a white pride symbol behind them: These people arn't thugs wearing neo-nazi symbols This is not a member of Svoboda reenacting the burial of fallen Nazi soldiers in the fight against the Soviet Union: This is not a map of how much of a problem Svoboda is in Ukrainian society: It would be silly to say all the protesters are fascists, no one is saying that. But the extremists are the ones now armed and 'patrolling' the streets. When a member of Right Sector took the microphone away from Klitschko and pointed to the corner implying where his place was its more than evident who is running the show now
I am pretty sure Yanukovych himself has declared protesters fascists and what not. Anyway, the point is when russophiles lose, they start calling the opposition some ugly and incorrect names. It's not strictly limited to fascism.
Example: http://www.breakingnews.com/item/2014/02/22/more-ukrainian-president-yanukovych-describes-eve/
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On February 24 2014 23:32 Manit0u wrote:
When (and where) do you think they'll find Yanukovych? I wonder how long and how far can he run before he's found.
Reports of Yanukovych being taken onto a Russian ship in the Black Sea by Russian media, other sources say he is in a monastery. Who knows.
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lol a map of Ukraine showing how serious a problem Svoboda is shows that it has less support than the far right in France, Austria, and a few other European countries as well. But they're wearing swastikas and SS symbols! That's what the far right in Europe does, big whoop. Oh look some guy painted neo-Nazi symbology on his shield, I sure feel more sympathetic to the robocops on the other side whose buddies were indiscriminately picking out protesters and shooting them now. And whose bosses were telling them the Maidan was a Jewish conspiracy to ruin Ukraine while giving people like zeo a thrill by telling the world these same Jewish conspirators are actually Nazis.
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Gosh... get your facts straight...
In France the Right had 18%, in Austria 20% in the last elections... And they are far less on right then Svoboda... (even if they are far too right for my taste)
And now compare those numbers to the big brown blobs on the left side of the map... And now take out the greenish areas on the left, which are now not that happy with the western half having all the power
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On February 25 2014 00:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But they're wearing swastikas and SS symbols! That's what the far right in Europe does, big whoop.
that is a pretty big whoop.
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On February 25 2014 00:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:
lol a map of Ukraine showing how serious a problem Svoboda is shows that it has less support than the far right in France, Austria, and a few other European countries as well. But they're wearing swastikas and SS symbols! That's what the far right in Europe does, big whoop. Oh look some guy painted neo-Nazi symbology on his shield, I sure feel more sympathetic to the robocops on the other side whose buddies were indiscriminately picking out protesters and shooting them now. And whose bosses were telling them the Maidan was a Jewish conspiracy to ruin Ukraine while giving people like zeo a thrill by telling the world these same Jewish conspirators are actually Nazis.
Implying a right-wing party from France celebrating collaboration with Nazi Germany would get more than 10% of the vote.
edit: Maybe I missed the news where it said there are large cities in Austria where 40% of people celebrate Anschluss
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On February 24 2014 20:48 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2014 20:38 zeo wrote:On February 24 2014 20:29 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On February 24 2014 20:23 zeo wrote:On February 24 2014 20:16 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On February 24 2014 19:51 zeo wrote:On February 24 2014 19:40 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:On February 24 2014 19:16 zeo wrote:On February 24 2014 19:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Zeo, u have to mention that Sevastopol has a military Russian port, and historicly a pretty big part of population is pro-russian there, but 50k is still not even close to majority of populations. Burning flags is also a sign of vandalism, almost the same as monument destructionsm, that's bad.
And please, could u hide at least some of u'r videos and pics behind the spoilers? Cause u're posting a lot together. Already done, didn't see anything about anti-maidan protest in the thread so I put it up. Of course people need to band together to protect themselves from what is happening in the west of the country. Deep division between Russians and Ukrainians is what the nationalists want, and with that clown Yanukovych hiding in the east it just makes matters worse. People speaking different languages had no problems until the populism of the 2004 Orange "revolution". U are overestimating language difference in Ukraine, seriously, both languages are pretty huge and important, closing one of them will cause a serious problems for those who made such "laws", as well as this person gonna loose a big gap of potential votes in near future. There is no particular reason to establish only a single national language in a huge region where historicly two languages are wide populated. I think you misunderstood me, of course both languages are really important, something like 9 million people see themselves as Russians, everyone has the right to use their own language. The recent laws in the illegal government (banning all non-Ukrainian languages, trying to revoke Ukrainian citizenship of non-Ukrainians) are specifically aimed at infuriating the Russian population in the country and turning anti-crazy Ukrainians and Russians against each other. Banning non-Ukraininan languages? Are u serious? So all the tourists are illeagal? :D The Verkhovna Rada also canceled the language law that made bilingualism officially acceptable in regions where the population of national minorites is more than 10 percent), with 232 votes in favor. http://www.kyivpost.com/content/politics/new-prosecutor-security-services-chief-promise-investigations-as-parliament-today-passes-many-new-laws-unanimously-337415.htmlNo, it just means minority's in Ukraine (Russians, Hungarians, Polish, Romanian ect.) can no longer use their languages in a legal sense. Legal sense is still a pretty wide meaning, i'm don't rly care will my diploma be in russian or ukrainian, it doesn't matter tbh, and nobody gonna be jailed if he would speaks russian/polish in the streets. People are worried, if the violently instated 'new-government' is doing this 2 days after taking over whats next? What does revoking minority rights really solve now in Ukraine? Even in the violently stated government there are smart people at the very top, and I almost sure they do realise that forcing such laws would autimaticly mean a cyvil war. Our "minority" how u called us and me also won't sit still whith such strangulating laws. People are...okay, stop it, cause am also worried about overall situation, but to speak precisely, i'm worried about financial part of revolution, and about my favorite football club might be dissapearing cause of revolution (Owner of football club was close to Yanukovich family) but no worries about language strangulation, at least in Kharkov.
Don't blame revolution. You know exactly how it ended up in their hands.
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On February 25 2014 00:44 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2014 00:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But they're wearing swastikas and SS symbols! That's what the far right in Europe does, big whoop. that is a pretty big whoop.
Only to Russians and people who forget how weak the far right really is.
Gosh... get your facts straight...
In France the Right had 18%, in Austria 20% in the last elections... And they are far less on right then Svoboda... (even if they are far too right for my taste)
And now compare those numbers to the big brown blobs on the left side of the map... And now take out the greenish areas on the left, which are now not that happy with the western half having all the power
You make me want to smack my head into a cinderblock.
Both 18% and 20% are larger than 10.44%... there are areas in France and Austria where the far right also gets 30% of the vote... and a little bit more sometimes as well. I'm sure there places in the Ukraine where the far right gets 50%+.
Now compare those numbers to a fantasy world where eastern Ukraine doesn't count because of another fantasy where eastern Ukrainians are super-pissed and ready to do something about it over what western Ukrainians have done... there have been pro-Maidan as well as anti-Maidan demonstrations in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, several eastern government officials have said they will not support splitting the country, several others who were more defiant against the new Kiev have actually fled to Russia. The situation is not so clear cut as the caricature that the country is sharply divided literally at the middle.
So slice a bit here dice a bit there bibbity bobbity boo and so what are you saying that isn't either simply wrong or so self-serving as to beggar belief that we should accept it as reasonable. Hey if I decided that certain areas of a country don't count just because it suits me I could make any country look any way I wanted. If only I could get people to buy it. But they don't buy that crap.
Implying a right-wing party from France celebrating collaboration with Nazi Germany would get more than 10% of the vote.
edit: Maybe I missed the news where it said there are large cities in Austria where 40% of people celebrate Anschluss
Now we get to pick and choose who in the far right is actually in the far right because, wait for it, it suits you!
National Front members have been ambivalent about or defensive of the Nazis and Nazism, they keep it tamped down to get more votes these days but it was not so long ago and by that I mean just a few short years that the National Front and the smaller associated groups were doing things like - if not celebrating - defending the conduct of the German occupation of France during the war.
http://wahl13.bmi.gv.at/
I thought fascism was fascism whether urban or rural but hey the rules are whatever you and Putin need them to be today. The far right is not invisible Austrian cities.
The far right in the Ukraine is certainly more violent but I just can't seem to recall them being as violent as they were last week until elite robocops tried to steamroll them and everybody else and failed.
I'll give it to you guys you keep the discussion focused on the far right while besides "patrolling Kiev" (you do know the police and military and interior ministry troops went over to the Maidan, right?) what has the far right really done since Yanukovych left. Their leaders aren't in the conversation for winning the presidency or prime ministership after the new elections. They don't have anywhere near the numbers to take over against all the forces of the new government plus their current protester comrades. But whatever, it serves Russia more to be stubborn and ridiculous than take the greater humiliation of admitting defeat in the Ukraine, so a frenzy about fascists will continue.
And hey didn't a certain country rule the Ukraine during most of the last century and didn't it spend most of that time trying to make the Ukraine more like it, suppressing the Ukrainian culture and language? Which country is Yanukovych and the Yanukovych society a client for? Seems to me that if Ukraine is infested with fascists, we know exactly which country created the environment that bred them.
Don't we now?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.nezabarom.ua/img/objects/68982c6bf2.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a3/%D0%A1%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%8B_%D0%BF%D0%BB._%D0%92%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C.jpg/800px-%D0%A1%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%8B_%D0%BF%D0%BB._%D0%92%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8F_%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C.jpg)
) which means he has nothing common in with socialism and imperialism, he has a huge cultural meaning, his statue in simply most known. For example, couples of statues which situated pretty close to Lenin are: Taras Shevchenko monument + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://vadimov.net/web_images/pamyatnikshevchenko.jpg)
, + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://mykharkov.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/z_bd848b1e.jpg)
(some may call him as the very best ukraininan poet and writer) which is also very well knows and it stands in Shevchenko's part right next to Ploshad Svobody, also in those park we do have a statue (Angel of Freedom + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v223/Iemanja/Kharkov/IMG_1460.jpg)
), we goes further down the Sumskaya street a bit, and comes closer to Poshad Constitucyy (The square of constitution) and interesting fact that it changed gradually few years ago, it changed from soviet sculpture of a warrior liberator + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://rotozeev.net/gallery/kharkov/3_iz_lombarda_1.jpg)
to a modern square with a statue symbolized a freedom and constituton + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://www.2do2go.ru/uploads/full/769d7084c23f9cd466200636a6b80648_w960_h2048.jpg)
, + Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://mykharkov.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ploschad_konstitucii-700x454.jpg)
. And interesting fact about the very last square I described, as u can see on the image, there are couple of tanks been there with monument, nothing happened to them, cause those stuff also have a pretty big cultural meaning, all the armors been replaced a bit but the statue of soldier liberator changed it's place much further (we used to have like 3 or 4 tanks on those square, also a british one from the first world war, a soviet T-34 and a couple of cannons from different centuries).
