On February 25 2014 02:45 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: So u didn't said whom should I blame directly, u just said "hopefully it won't be the same like was 2004". Well, that's inspiring me... :D Hope is the last thing i want to belive in. I hope my kids will grow up in a strong country, I hope my government will be less corrupted, let's hope! Wooooo, gonna bring some champagne.
So should I blame Putin, Yanukovich, Tymoshenko, my parents, revolutioneers, U.S. department of state, masons, myself or reptiloids?
Yea, we are responsible in some ways, I'm responsible for a place I was born in :/
You don't seem to understand. In the minds of people who live or wish to live in functioning countries, the responsibility of governance and clearing corruption IS the responsibility of the people who live in that country. So yes, you have the responsibility to try to make your country a better country.
informative mark ames article on euromaidan, well worth a read.
...
What role the neo-fascists and descendants of Bandera will play in the near-term future is the big question. Their role in the protest’s vanguard is definitely scaring a lot of people in the east of Ukraine and Crimea, and could precipitate a violent split. On the other hand, by far the most likely scenario is that the neo-fascist/ultranationalists in Svoboda will be absorbed into the pro-West coalition and politics, as they’re still a minority in the coalition.
On February 25 2014 00:34 DeepElemBlues wrote: But they're wearing swastikas and SS symbols! That's what the far right in Europe does, big whoop.
that is a pretty big whoop.
Only to Russians and people who forget how weak the far right really is.
Gosh... get your facts straight... In France the Right had 18%, in Austria 20% in the last elections... And they are far less on right then Svoboda... (even if they are far too right for my taste)
And now compare those numbers to the big brown blobs on the left side of the map... And now take out the greenish areas on the left, which are now not that happy with the western half having all the power
You make me want to smack my head into a cinderblock.
Both 18% and 20% are larger than 10.44%... there are areas in France and Austria where the far right also gets 30% of the vote... and a little bit more sometimes as well. I'm sure there places in the Ukraine where the far right gets 50%+.
Now compare those numbers to a fantasy world where eastern Ukraine doesn't count because of another fantasy where eastern Ukrainians are super-pissed and ready to do something about it over what western Ukrainians have done... there have been pro-Maidan as well as anti-Maidan demonstrations in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, several eastern government officials have said they will not support splitting the country, several others who were more defiant against the new Kiev have actually fled to Russia. The situation is not so clear cut as the caricature that the country is sharply divided literally at the middle.
So slice a bit here dice a bit there bibbity bobbity boo and so what are you saying that isn't either simply wrong or so self-serving as to beggar belief that we should accept it as reasonable. Hey if I decided that certain areas of a country don't count just because it suits me I could make any country look any way I wanted. If only I could get people to buy it. But they don't buy that crap.
Implying a right-wing party from France celebrating collaboration with Nazi Germany would get more than 10% of the vote.
edit: Maybe I missed the news where it said there are large cities in Austria where 40% of people celebrate Anschluss
Now we get to pick and choose who in the far right is actually in the far right because, wait for it, it suits you!
National Front members have been ambivalent about or defensive of the Nazis and Nazism, they keep it tamped down to get more votes these days but it was not so long ago and by that I mean just a few short years that the National Front and the smaller associated groups were doing things like - if not celebrating - defending the conduct of the German occupation of France during the war.
I thought fascism was fascism whether urban or rural but hey the rules are whatever you and Putin need them to be today. The far right is not invisible Austrian cities.
The far right in the Ukraine is certainly more violent but I just can't seem to recall them being as violent as they were last week until elite robocops tried to steamroll them and everybody else and failed.
I'll give it to you guys you keep the discussion focused on the far right while besides "patrolling Kiev" (you do know the police and military and interior ministry troops went over to the Maidan, right?) what has the far right really done since Yanukovych left. Their leaders aren't in the conversation for winning the presidency or prime ministership after the new elections. They don't have anywhere near the numbers to take over against all the forces of the new government plus their current protester comrades. But whatever, it serves Russia more to be stubborn and ridiculous than take the greater humiliation of admitting defeat in the Ukraine, so a frenzy about fascists will continue.
And hey didn't a certain country rule the Ukraine during most of the last century and didn't it spend most of that time trying to make the Ukraine more like it, suppressing the Ukrainian culture and language? Which country is Yanukovych and the Yanukovych society a client for? Seems to me that if Ukraine is infested with fascists, we know exactly which country created the environment that bred them.
Don't we now?
And you know what's the funniest thing comes to my mind? My grandpa fought second world war agains fascism and nazis, and what's now? Potentially, 70 years later I may continue to do his "job", but the funniest things that all those fascist comes from my country! :DDD
Even tho I don't belive in this bullshit.
And I dare u, that bunch of idiots with 14/88 on their shields doesn't mean our country is infested by them at every pore.
@Cheerio
Show me whom should I blame? I'm so frustrated due to this, my dad may loose his job cause he's in Metalist structure, and I may loose my sports school.
I tell you who to blame. Sorry for saying this, but for example, you could blame your parents' generation for tolerating this shit that Yanukovich, Timoshenko and others were doing to your country. Corruption runs rampart across Ukraine and it would not be so if public opinion would not consider it something normal. Now finally people decided to do something about it, hopefully for Ukraine it won't end like the 2004 failure where a cowardly crook was replaced with bloodthirsty gas queen.
Don't take it personal, I have nothing against you and your folks, but many Ukrainians are responsible for the hell they are in now. I do not know the reasons, perhaps they were raised in such society and it was a norm. Believe me, when 10 guys controls 30% of your GDP something is very fucking wrong.
Now that your country reached almost bottom it will be tough time for everyone there. I wish you all the best guys, but there is no easy way for getting back to a decent economical level from where you are as a country now. And believe me, the money that Russia wanted to give you was a patch. Patch that would ensure well being of current corruption, because this is what Russia wants - that Ukraine would be its weak subject, not strong self-sustainable country. You need a long term solution, not pumping billions into your corrupt economy. Without structural changes, this year you pump 15 billions, next year 30 billions and suddenly you are on a Moscow leash again with 45 billions of debt. Look at Belarus now, the country which stayed with Russia. Everyone there has the same amount of goods, just enough not to die, and very shit besides it.
So u didn't said whom should I blame directly, u just said "hopefully it won't be the same like was 2004". Well, that's inspiring me... :D Hope is the last thing i want to belive in. I hope my kids will grow up in a strong country, I hope my government will be less corrupted, let's hope! Wooooo, gonna bring some champagne.
So should I blame Putin, Yanukovich, Tymoshenko, my parents, revolutioneers, U.S. department of state, masons, myself or reptiloids?
Yea, we are responsible in some ways, I'm responsible for a place I was born in :/
People like you are to blame. Instead of trying to change something for the better, you are going to cry and ridicule what people write on forums. Unless you wanted your country to be someone's lapdog in the first place, then hey, why the fuck are even having this conversation at all.
I've started to be better from myself, minimum of alcohol, sports, never smoked and never had a problems with laws. Show me the way how can I become a presiden, I'll do my job as the best. Oh wait...who the hell let me be there without corrupted friends-politicians which interests I will follow during my presidency, without huge money bank, without many factors that necessary.
Or better, I'd go and try to change something for better, for example, I'll try to crush the monument of Lenin! Or I'll better throw some molotova cocktail in police office, or maybe I'll go join Titushki and support Yanukovich. Oh gush, this "better way" is so hard to find out
Yet again you want me to find you a one recipe to cover all your problems, but you fail to realize that it is small things that people do in everyday life define your nation as a whole. It does start with you, but does not end there. The small, you could think, stupid things that people do is what defines the whole societies.
Thank u for being my cap obvious! Did u saw some sarcastic notes in my previous post?
You do not get it, perhaps you are too young or simply too complacent to understand.
On February 25 2014 00:34 DeepElemBlues wrote: But they're wearing swastikas and SS symbols! That's what the far right in Europe does, big whoop.
that is a pretty big whoop.
Only to Russians and people who forget how weak the far right really is.
Gosh... get your facts straight... In France the Right had 18%, in Austria 20% in the last elections... And they are far less on right then Svoboda... (even if they are far too right for my taste)
And now compare those numbers to the big brown blobs on the left side of the map... And now take out the greenish areas on the left, which are now not that happy with the western half having all the power
You make me want to smack my head into a cinderblock.
Both 18% and 20% are larger than 10.44%... there are areas in France and Austria where the far right also gets 30% of the vote... and a little bit more sometimes as well. I'm sure there places in the Ukraine where the far right gets 50%+.
Now compare those numbers to a fantasy world where eastern Ukraine doesn't count because of another fantasy where eastern Ukrainians are super-pissed and ready to do something about it over what western Ukrainians have done... there have been pro-Maidan as well as anti-Maidan demonstrations in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, several eastern government officials have said they will not support splitting the country, several others who were more defiant against the new Kiev have actually fled to Russia. The situation is not so clear cut as the caricature that the country is sharply divided literally at the middle.
So slice a bit here dice a bit there bibbity bobbity boo and so what are you saying that isn't either simply wrong or so self-serving as to beggar belief that we should accept it as reasonable. Hey if I decided that certain areas of a country don't count just because it suits me I could make any country look any way I wanted. If only I could get people to buy it. But they don't buy that crap.
Implying a right-wing party from France celebrating collaboration with Nazi Germany would get more than 10% of the vote.
edit: Maybe I missed the news where it said there are large cities in Austria where 40% of people celebrate Anschluss
Now we get to pick and choose who in the far right is actually in the far right because, wait for it, it suits you!
National Front members have been ambivalent about or defensive of the Nazis and Nazism, they keep it tamped down to get more votes these days but it was not so long ago and by that I mean just a few short years that the National Front and the smaller associated groups were doing things like - if not celebrating - defending the conduct of the German occupation of France during the war.
I thought fascism was fascism whether urban or rural but hey the rules are whatever you and Putin need them to be today. The far right is not invisible Austrian cities.
The far right in the Ukraine is certainly more violent but I just can't seem to recall them being as violent as they were last week until elite robocops tried to steamroll them and everybody else and failed.
I'll give it to you guys you keep the discussion focused on the far right while besides "patrolling Kiev" (you do know the police and military and interior ministry troops went over to the Maidan, right?) what has the far right really done since Yanukovych left. Their leaders aren't in the conversation for winning the presidency or prime ministership after the new elections. They don't have anywhere near the numbers to take over against all the forces of the new government plus their current protester comrades. But whatever, it serves Russia more to be stubborn and ridiculous than take the greater humiliation of admitting defeat in the Ukraine, so a frenzy about fascists will continue.
And hey didn't a certain country rule the Ukraine during most of the last century and didn't it spend most of that time trying to make the Ukraine more like it, suppressing the Ukrainian culture and language? Which country is Yanukovych and the Yanukovych society a client for? Seems to me that if Ukraine is infested with fascists, we know exactly which country created the environment that bred them.
Don't we now?
And you know what's the funniest thing comes to my mind? My grandpa fought second world war agains fascism and nazis, and what's now? Potentially, 70 years later I may continue to do his "job", but the funniest things that all those fascist comes from my country! :DDD
Even tho I don't belive in this bullshit.
And I dare u, that bunch of idiots with 14/88 on their shields doesn't mean our country is infested by them at every pore.
@Cheerio
Show me whom should I blame? I'm so frustrated due to this, my dad may loose his job cause he's in Metalist structure, and I may loose my sports school.
I tell you who to blame. Sorry for saying this, but for example, you could blame your parents' generation for tolerating this shit that Yanukovich, Timoshenko and others were doing to your country. Corruption runs rampart across Ukraine and it would not be so if public opinion would not consider it something normal. Now finally people decided to do something about it, hopefully for Ukraine it won't end like the 2004 failure where a cowardly crook was replaced with bloodthirsty gas queen.
Don't take it personal, I have nothing against you and your folks, but many Ukrainians are responsible for the hell they are in now. I do not know the reasons, perhaps they were raised in such society and it was a norm. Believe me, when 10 guys controls 30% of your GDP something is very fucking wrong.
Now that your country reached almost bottom it will be tough time for everyone there. I wish you all the best guys, but there is no easy way for getting back to a decent economical level from where you are as a country now. And believe me, the money that Russia wanted to give you was a patch. Patch that would ensure well being of current corruption, because this is what Russia wants - that Ukraine would be its weak subject, not strong self-sustainable country. You need a long term solution, not pumping billions into your corrupt economy. Without structural changes, this year you pump 15 billions, next year 30 billions and suddenly you are on a Moscow leash again with 45 billions of debt. Look at Belarus now, the country which stayed with Russia. Everyone there has the same amount of goods, just enough not to die, and very shit besides it.
So u didn't said whom should I blame directly, u just said "hopefully it won't be the same like was 2004". Well, that's inspiring me... :D Hope is the last thing i want to belive in. I hope my kids will grow up in a strong country, I hope my government will be less corrupted, let's hope! Wooooo, gonna bring some champagne.
So should I blame Putin, Yanukovich, Tymoshenko, my parents, revolutioneers, U.S. department of state, masons, myself or reptiloids?
Yea, we are responsible in some ways, I'm responsible for a place I was born in :/
People like you are to blame. Instead of trying to change something for the better, you are going to cry and ridicule what people write on forums. Unless you wanted your country to be someone's lapdog in the first place, then hey, why the fuck are even having this conversation at all.
I've started to be better from myself, minimum of alcohol, sports, never smoked and never had a problems with laws. Show me the way how can I become a presiden, I'll do my job as the best. Oh wait...who the hell let me be there without corrupted friends-politicians which interests I will follow during my presidency, without huge money bank, without many factors that necessary.
Or better, I'd go and try to change something for better, for example, I'll try to crush the monument of Lenin! Or I'll better throw some molotova cocktail in police office, or maybe I'll go join Titushki and support Yanukovich. Oh gush, this "better way" is so hard to find out
Yet again you want me to find you a one recipe to cover all your problems, but you fail to realize that it is small things that people do in everyday life define your nation as a whole. It does start with you, but does not end there. The small, you could think, stupid things that people do is what defines the whole societies.
Thank u for being my cap obvious! Did u saw some sarcastic notes in my previous post?
You're supposed to start small. Find things in your local community to do. Do you know of a small underfunded organization trying to make a difference? An orphanage, pet shelter, school for poor kids, schools for children with special needs, playgrounds in disrepair? Well, join them, act as a volunteer, help build them up. While you're actually making a difference, you'll learn about how funding works, how policy decisions are made (at a very low level), what matters and what does not. You can then move on to bigger things once the community scene grows too small for you. You're 24, so you've had a slow start, but you're still 40 years from your political prime.
2 cSc.Dav1oN that's why the revolution suxx, u cant just take away some politics u don't like. Its about culture level of population, its a long process. But there are always be people that wants NOW and HERE, and this people r the best tool for forces outside ur country.
On February 24 2014 14:15 zlefin wrote: Doesn't sound like a terribly robust constitution if it can be disrupted that easily; though words on paper do have their limits. I don't know enough about Ukraine to design a constitution that would really work well there.
At first I was like, what does this actually mean? Then I realized that you're assuming due process. No, the judges were coerced into making that ruling, with 4 judges retiring in protest, so Yanukovich could get exactly the verdict he needed. There was nothing legitimate and legal about it. So, no, the constitution isn't to blame, it's the corrupt government.
A good constitution has many safeguards in place to prevent that kind of thing. And I did not assume due process, a good constitution should be resistant to attempts to violate that as well. so I stand by my assertion that it doesn't sound that robust. Though if you'd like to provide more details I'd love to listen.
The standard safeguards are a) the President as the upholder of a constitution, b) the constitutional court who overturns unconstitutional laws, c) the ombudsman. I don't know about (c), but (a) was Yanukovich and (b) was was bribed and coerced by Yanukovich. Beyond that, I guess there's the Rada which impeaches the president, and that's what happened now. But before that, Yanukovich, by rigging elections, managed to grab a large enough majority and to keep it docile, so he controlled all three pillars of government. Beyond that, there just aren't any more safeguards. I guess you could add the safeguard that every constitutional change requires a referendum, or that local governments must ratify it (US model) but that's not too common.
There's a whole lot more than that that can be done potentially; everything comes with a cost of course. But that doesn't sound like something which ensures a strong balance of power, and pushes against consolidation of power. It also doesn't sound like it provides much in the way of alternate sources of force if things go down that road.
There's really not that much innovation in government design in general, so it's not surprising; nations tend to stick to a few basic models.
On February 24 2014 14:15 zlefin wrote: Doesn't sound like a terribly robust constitution if it can be disrupted that easily; though words on paper do have their limits. I don't know enough about Ukraine to design a constitution that would really work well there.
At first I was like, what does this actually mean? Then I realized that you're assuming due process. No, the judges were coerced into making that ruling, with 4 judges retiring in protest, so Yanukovich could get exactly the verdict he needed. There was nothing legitimate and legal about it. So, no, the constitution isn't to blame, it's the corrupt government.
A good constitution has many safeguards in place to prevent that kind of thing. And I did not assume due process, a good constitution should be resistant to attempts to violate that as well. so I stand by my assertion that it doesn't sound that robust. Though if you'd like to provide more details I'd love to listen.
The standard safeguards are a) the President as the upholder of a constitution, b) the constitutional court who overturns unconstitutional laws, c) the ombudsman. I don't know about (c), but (a) was Yanukovich and (b) was was bribed and coerced by Yanukovich. Beyond that, I guess there's the Rada which impeaches the president, and that's what happened now. But before that, Yanukovich, by rigging elections, managed to grab a large enough majority and to keep it docile, so he controlled all three pillars of government. Beyond that, there just aren't any more safeguards. I guess you could add the safeguard that every constitutional change requires a referendum, or that local governments must ratify it (US model) but that's not too common.
There's a whole lot more than that that can be done potentially; everything comes with a cost of course. But that doesn't sound like something which ensures a strong balance of power, and pushes against consolidation of power. It also doesn't sound like it provides much in the way of alternate sources of force if things go down that road.
There's really not that much innovation in government design in general, so it's not surprising; nations tend to stick to a few basic models.
In the end it all depends on the people. Every constitutional design has weak spots and these are people. No amount of safeguards will help if crooks are responsible for upholding the safeguards.
On February 25 2014 00:41 mahrgell wrote: Gosh... get your facts straight... In France the Right had 18%, in Austria 20% in the last elections... And they are far less on right then Svoboda... (even if they are far too right for my taste)
And now compare those numbers to the big brown blobs on the left side of the map... And now take out the greenish areas on the left, which are now not that happy with the western half having all the power
And Svoboda's only electoral success was in 2012 when it pulled in around it won 10% of the vote...making it as he said less than the Neo-Nazi right in France, Austria or Netherlands. In Austria and Netherlands the fascists actually were allowed into government. Before 2012 -- before people voted for Svoboda as a protest party -- they had less than 1% of votes.
On February 23 2014 05:42 Sub40APM wrote: [quote] Maybe, but Lenin was also the guy who before Soviet's captured Kiev turned Kharkiv into the capital of the Ukraine SSR and then the Communists spend billions to make it the industrial heartland of Ukraine. I think people who are busy pulling down statutes when real reforms havent even began are the kind of idiots Ukrainian reformists dont need on their side.
can I ask you how much is your national independence worth?
Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb.
Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that.
Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism.
No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.
so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.
somehow I missed it. What are you talking about?
Hmelnitsky, great hero ukrainian nationalism was also a massive antisemite whose troops committed mass crimes against Jews.
If we're going to disqualify historical national heroes because they were also bloodthirsty, bigots or both we're gonna have about zero national heroes who were born before 1950 for any country you can name.
I am not, I am just making a point that Cheerio's obsession with taking down Lenin statutes is stupid. That guy is as part of Ukrainian history as Hmelinstky is. And they both have blood on their hands. The only difference is taking down Lenin statutes also pointlessly spreads fear among Russian speakers.
And to zeo -- Crimean Russians have always been acting this way. In 2009 the Deputy Speaker of the Crimean Parliament -- that they have because they already are an autonomous Republic since 1993 -- that he hoped Russia would treat Crimea the way it treated Abkhazia and South Ossetia.
On February 25 2014 00:41 mahrgell wrote: Gosh... get your facts straight... In France the Right had 18%, in Austria 20% in the last elections... And they are far less on right then Svoboda... (even if they are far too right for my taste)
And now compare those numbers to the big brown blobs on the left side of the map... And now take out the greenish areas on the left, which are now not that happy with the western half having all the power
And Svoboda's only electoral success was in 2012 when it pulled in around it won 10% of the vote...making it as he said less than the Neo-Nazi right in France, Austria or Netherlands. In Austria and Netherlands the fascists actually were allowed into government. Before 2012 -- before people voted for Svoboda as a protest party -- they had less than 1% of votes.
Geert Wilders is far right in the sense that he is anti immigration but you can hardly call him a neo nazi or facist. He was never in the government and he only supported thr coalition.
Wilders is pro Israel and jew and doesn't care for most minorities except muslims, his family from his mothers side is from Indonesia in fact.
Edit; sorry for going off topic but I thought it required some further explanation
On February 24 2014 14:15 zlefin wrote: Doesn't sound like a terribly robust constitution if it can be disrupted that easily; though words on paper do have their limits. I don't know enough about Ukraine to design a constitution that would really work well there.
At first I was like, what does this actually mean? Then I realized that you're assuming due process. No, the judges were coerced into making that ruling, with 4 judges retiring in protest, so Yanukovich could get exactly the verdict he needed. There was nothing legitimate and legal about it. So, no, the constitution isn't to blame, it's the corrupt government.
A good constitution has many safeguards in place to prevent that kind of thing. And I did not assume due process, a good constitution should be resistant to attempts to violate that as well. so I stand by my assertion that it doesn't sound that robust. Though if you'd like to provide more details I'd love to listen.
The standard safeguards are a) the President as the upholder of a constitution, b) the constitutional court who overturns unconstitutional laws, c) the ombudsman. I don't know about (c), but (a) was Yanukovich and (b) was was bribed and coerced by Yanukovich. Beyond that, I guess there's the Rada which impeaches the president, and that's what happened now. But before that, Yanukovich, by rigging elections, managed to grab a large enough majority and to keep it docile, so he controlled all three pillars of government. Beyond that, there just aren't any more safeguards. I guess you could add the safeguard that every constitutional change requires a referendum, or that local governments must ratify it (US model) but that's not too common.
There's a whole lot more than that that can be done potentially; everything comes with a cost of course. But that doesn't sound like something which ensures a strong balance of power, and pushes against consolidation of power. It also doesn't sound like it provides much in the way of alternate sources of force if things go down that road.
There's really not that much innovation in government design in general, so it's not surprising; nations tend to stick to a few basic models.
In the end it all depends on the people. Every constitutional design has weak spots and these are people. No amount of safeguards will help if crooks are responsible for upholding the safeguards.
Certainly it all comes down to people, and words on paper have no direct power to do anything. And a sufficiently large amount of corruption or force can override any stated rules. But sometimes well constructed safeguards can be designed that can passably work in a highly corrupt environment. Ensuring a good balance of power is important, and how well that can be done depends on how many competing interests there are. Of course safeguards have a cost too, and they can drive down government efficiency so much that they may not be worth doing.
About future role of Svoboda. 2 Hours ago Oleg Makhnitsky (member of Svoboda) was appointed as General Attorney. As it seems Svoboda cooperating with U.D.A.R. (Klitschko party). Tyahnybok (Svoboda leader) created project of lustration law, which is supported by U.D.A.R. Klitschko even mentioned it today. Now they are researching past examples of such laws (Poland, Czech, Georgia, Latvia and so on). It should be ready in two months according to Svoboda guys. If this law will pass (and both parties expect it to pass) it can destroy Party of Regions because all people who had business with Yanukovich or his gang will be forced out of politics and goverment work. And if it will be timed out properly (right before new parliament elections) it will leave Eastern Ukraine with no reliable representatives. Because it takes time to push new people in the political scene. Also it will most likely cut out Timoshenko from any elections. On the other hand there were rumors of discontent between members of Batkivshina (Timoshenko and Yatsenyuk's party). According to this rumors they are not happy with the fact that most legislative initiatives were rushed and not discussed properly. And there is always a problem of Timoshenko who is the head of the party, but not really.
Next elections will be interesting. As I see it - Svoboda will back up Klitschko as their front boy vs. most likely Timoshenko and some pro-russian candidate (might be Poroshenko). In this situation Klitschko actually have good chances, unless Timoshenko will somehow get pro-russian electorate (which is actually possible, she isn't really popular in West Ukraine anymore due to broken promises from 2004). If Klitschko wins or lustration law will pass Ukraine will have goverment leaning right and some conflicts with pro-russian parts of the country (mainly - Crimea). If Timoshenko wins - ... Who knows. She had pretty corrupt past, but she is smart and most likely will not shoot herself in the leg again. Also - in the Eastern Ukraine she at least have general respect of population. Purely pro-russian guy won't win in any sane scenario. Will be fun to observe.
UPDATE. As it seems governor of Kharkov region Mikhail Dobkin will run for Presidents chair. Most likely he will pose as pro-russian candidate. It understandable, he have nothing to lose. But still - he have little to no chance for victory. He was in Yanukovich gang, after all.
On February 25 2014 00:41 mahrgell wrote: Gosh... get your facts straight... In France the Right had 18%, in Austria 20% in the last elections... And they are far less on right then Svoboda... (even if they are far too right for my taste)
And now compare those numbers to the big brown blobs on the left side of the map... And now take out the greenish areas on the left, which are now not that happy with the western half having all the power
And Svoboda's only electoral success was in 2012 when it pulled in around it won 10% of the vote...making it as he said less than the Neo-Nazi right in France, Austria or Netherlands. In Austria and Netherlands the fascists actually were allowed into government. Before 2012 -- before people voted for Svoboda as a protest party -- they had less than 1% of votes.
Geert Wilders is far right in the sense that he is anti immigration but you can hardly call him a neo nazi or facist. He was never in the government and he only supported thr coalition.
Wilders is pro Israel and jew and doesn't care for most minorities except muslims, his family from his mothers side is from Indonesia in fact.
Edit; sorry for going off topic but I thought it required some further explanation
Pim Fortuyn would have formed a government if he wasnt killed. Its true, you cant call him or Wilders a classical fascist the way Svoboda idiots are but his views on Muslims are clearly in line with Svoboda's view on Jews and Russians. The point is that in many sophisticated countries in Europe the last 10 years has seen the rise of right wing parties that are beyond the traditional conservatives. The idea that Svoboda is somehow an aberration on the European political scene is just wrong. And like Europe they are mainly a protest party -- which is why before 2012 they had almost no representation in parliament and why Svoboda and the Communist party in 2012 both registered 10% voters. There were more voters in support of the Communists than the Fascists, but that would contradict the Russian directed narrative that all anti-Yanukovich protestors are Nazis and would make zeo's photo shopping more complicated. .
At purchasing-power parity, Poland’s GDP per capita has almost quadrupled since 1992, according to data from the IMF. Over the same period, Ukraine’s only grew by a bit more than 40%. Ukraine stands out among the former members of the Eastern Bloc. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine’s GDP per capita has grown by less than 2% per year on average, lagging every other country in the region Even more galling, perhaps, is the development of a place like Belarus, a Soviet-style dictatorship and stalwart member of the Russian-led Eurasian Union. Although a basket case in many ways, when measured by GDP-per-capita Belarus is now more than twice as rich as Ukraine; the two were on roughly equal economic footing in the mid-1990s.
At purchasing-power parity, Poland’s GDP per capita has almost quadrupled since 1992, according to data from the IMF. Over the same period, Ukraine’s only grew by a bit more than 40%. Ukraine stands out among the former members of the Eastern Bloc. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine’s GDP per capita has grown by less than 2% per year on average, lagging every other country in the region Even more galling, perhaps, is the development of a place like Belarus, a Soviet-style dictatorship and stalwart member of the Russian-led Eurasian Union. Although a basket case in many ways, when measured by GDP-per-capita Belarus is now more than twice as rich as Ukraine; the two were on roughly equal economic footing in the mid-1990s.
Russia puts money into Belarus instead of sucking it out like it does to the Ukraine is a big reason.
Lukashenko is also far more competent as a gangster president than Yanukovych ever was. Lukashenko has Putin's finger and a whole hand of his in every pie in Belarus. Unlike in the Ukraine where organized crime could and did operate without paying the government its cut.
Lukashenko knows that you will make more money if you shear the wool without killing the sheep.
On February 25 2014 02:25 Cheerio wrote: The stock market in Ukraine rose by 15,21%. It's tiny though, but shows that investors react positively to the events.
@Cheerio
Show me whom should I blame? I'm so frustrated due to this, my dad may loose his job cause he's in Metalist structure, and I may loose my sports school.
1 year ago the previous owner, local oligarh Yaroslavskyy, was forced to sell Metalist to some Yanukovich "Family" members. Since most of the income of the "Family" depended on corruption and because of the latest complications all resources were aimed at fighting Euromaidan, the club was left with no financing for the last 3 months (exactly when the protests started). So you are asking me who is to blame? I guess the answer is obvious.
Yaroslavskyy is also well-known for his buy-and-sell moments, so something remains uncertain (one month after selling F.C. Metalist he bought a big trace-center knows as Karavan, which also situated in Kharkov). And again, if there could not be Maidan, club would be functioning the same, and u agree with that. And u do prove my words that all this caused by revolution, good it or bad - doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is consequence.
This is just stupid. You are basically saying if a corrupt official is financing a popular football club, he can't be touched.
Only to Russians and people who forget how weak the far right really is.
Gosh... get your facts straight... In France the Right had 18%, in Austria 20% in the last elections... And they are far less on right then Svoboda... (even if they are far too right for my taste)
And now compare those numbers to the big brown blobs on the left side of the map... And now take out the greenish areas on the left, which are now not that happy with the western half having all the power
You make me want to smack my head into a cinderblock.
Both 18% and 20% are larger than 10.44%... there are areas in France and Austria where the far right also gets 30% of the vote... and a little bit more sometimes as well. I'm sure there places in the Ukraine where the far right gets 50%+.
Now compare those numbers to a fantasy world where eastern Ukraine doesn't count because of another fantasy where eastern Ukrainians are super-pissed and ready to do something about it over what western Ukrainians have done... there have been pro-Maidan as well as anti-Maidan demonstrations in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, several eastern government officials have said they will not support splitting the country, several others who were more defiant against the new Kiev have actually fled to Russia. The situation is not so clear cut as the caricature that the country is sharply divided literally at the middle.
So slice a bit here dice a bit there bibbity bobbity boo and so what are you saying that isn't either simply wrong or so self-serving as to beggar belief that we should accept it as reasonable. Hey if I decided that certain areas of a country don't count just because it suits me I could make any country look any way I wanted. If only I could get people to buy it. But they don't buy that crap.
Implying a right-wing party from France celebrating collaboration with Nazi Germany would get more than 10% of the vote.
edit: Maybe I missed the news where it said there are large cities in Austria where 40% of people celebrate Anschluss
Now we get to pick and choose who in the far right is actually in the far right because, wait for it, it suits you!
National Front members have been ambivalent about or defensive of the Nazis and Nazism, they keep it tamped down to get more votes these days but it was not so long ago and by that I mean just a few short years that the National Front and the smaller associated groups were doing things like - if not celebrating - defending the conduct of the German occupation of France during the war.
I thought fascism was fascism whether urban or rural but hey the rules are whatever you and Putin need them to be today. The far right is not invisible Austrian cities.
The far right in the Ukraine is certainly more violent but I just can't seem to recall them being as violent as they were last week until elite robocops tried to steamroll them and everybody else and failed.
I'll give it to you guys you keep the discussion focused on the far right while besides "patrolling Kiev" (you do know the police and military and interior ministry troops went over to the Maidan, right?) what has the far right really done since Yanukovych left. Their leaders aren't in the conversation for winning the presidency or prime ministership after the new elections. They don't have anywhere near the numbers to take over against all the forces of the new government plus their current protester comrades. But whatever, it serves Russia more to be stubborn and ridiculous than take the greater humiliation of admitting defeat in the Ukraine, so a frenzy about fascists will continue.
And hey didn't a certain country rule the Ukraine during most of the last century and didn't it spend most of that time trying to make the Ukraine more like it, suppressing the Ukrainian culture and language? Which country is Yanukovych and the Yanukovych society a client for? Seems to me that if Ukraine is infested with fascists, we know exactly which country created the environment that bred them.
Don't we now?
And you know what's the funniest thing comes to my mind? My grandpa fought second world war agains fascism and nazis, and what's now? Potentially, 70 years later I may continue to do his "job", but the funniest things that all those fascist comes from my country! :DDD
Even tho I don't belive in this bullshit.
And I dare u, that bunch of idiots with 14/88 on their shields doesn't mean our country is infested by them at every pore.
@Cheerio
Show me whom should I blame? I'm so frustrated due to this, my dad may loose his job cause he's in Metalist structure, and I may loose my sports school.
I tell you who to blame. Sorry for saying this, but for example, you could blame your parents' generation for tolerating this shit that Yanukovich, Timoshenko and others were doing to your country. Corruption runs rampart across Ukraine and it would not be so if public opinion would not consider it something normal. Now finally people decided to do something about it, hopefully for Ukraine it won't end like the 2004 failure where a cowardly crook was replaced with bloodthirsty gas queen.
Don't take it personal, I have nothing against you and your folks, but many Ukrainians are responsible for the hell they are in now. I do not know the reasons, perhaps they were raised in such society and it was a norm. Believe me, when 10 guys controls 30% of your GDP something is very fucking wrong.
Now that your country reached almost bottom it will be tough time for everyone there. I wish you all the best guys, but there is no easy way for getting back to a decent economical level from where you are as a country now. And believe me, the money that Russia wanted to give you was a patch. Patch that would ensure well being of current corruption, because this is what Russia wants - that Ukraine would be its weak subject, not strong self-sustainable country. You need a long term solution, not pumping billions into your corrupt economy. Without structural changes, this year you pump 15 billions, next year 30 billions and suddenly you are on a Moscow leash again with 45 billions of debt. Look at Belarus now, the country which stayed with Russia. Everyone there has the same amount of goods, just enough not to die, and very shit besides it.
So u didn't said whom should I blame directly, u just said "hopefully it won't be the same like was 2004". Well, that's inspiring me... :D Hope is the last thing i want to belive in. I hope my kids will grow up in a strong country, I hope my government will be less corrupted, let's hope! Wooooo, gonna bring some champagne.
So should I blame Putin, Yanukovich, Tymoshenko, my parents, revolutioneers, U.S. department of state, masons, myself or reptiloids?
Yea, we are responsible in some ways, I'm responsible for a place I was born in :/
People like you are to blame. Instead of trying to change something for the better, you are going to cry and ridicule what people write on forums. Unless you wanted your country to be someone's lapdog in the first place, then hey, why the fuck are even having this conversation at all.
I've started to be better from myself, minimum of alcohol, sports, never smoked and never had a problems with laws. Show me the way how can I become a presiden, I'll do my job as the best. Oh wait...who the hell let me be there without corrupted friends-politicians which interests I will follow during my presidency, without huge money bank, without many factors that necessary.
Or better, I'd go and try to change something for better, for example, I'll try to crush the monument of Lenin! Or I'll better throw some molotova cocktail in police office, or maybe I'll go join Titushki and support Yanukovich. Oh gush, this "better way" is so hard to find out
Yet again you want me to find you a one recipe to cover all your problems, but you fail to realize that it is small things that people do in everyday life define your nation as a whole. It does start with you, but does not end there. The small, you could think, stupid things that people do is what defines the whole societies.
Thank u for being my cap obvious! Did u saw some sarcastic notes in my previous post?
You do not get it, perhaps you are too young or simply too complacent to understand.
On February 25 2014 02:25 Cheerio wrote: The stock market in Ukraine rose by 15,21%. It's tiny though, but shows that investors react positively to the events.
@Cheerio
Show me whom should I blame? I'm so frustrated due to this, my dad may loose his job cause he's in Metalist structure, and I may loose my sports school.
1 year ago the previous owner, local oligarh Yaroslavskyy, was forced to sell Metalist to some Yanukovich "Family" members. Since most of the income of the "Family" depended on corruption and because of the latest complications all resources were aimed at fighting Euromaidan, the club was left with no financing for the last 3 months (exactly when the protests started). So you are asking me who is to blame? I guess the answer is obvious.
Yaroslavskyy is also well-known for his buy-and-sell moments, so something remains uncertain (one month after selling F.C. Metalist he bought a big trace-center knows as Karavan, which also situated in Kharkov). And again, if there could not be Maidan, club would be functioning the same, and u agree with that. And u do prove my words that all this caused by revolution, good it or bad - doesn't matter, the only thing that matters is consequence.
This is just stupid. You are basically saying if a corrupt official is financing a popular football club, he can't be touched.
EPT
