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Ukraine Crisis - Page 73

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
February 24 2014 21:03 GMT
#1441
On February 25 2014 03:06 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2014 02:58 Yurie wrote:
On February 25 2014 02:45 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
On February 25 2014 02:35 Roman666 wrote:
On February 25 2014 02:16 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
On February 25 2014 01:59 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On February 25 2014 00:44 nunez wrote:
On February 25 2014 00:34 DeepElemBlues wrote:
But they're wearing swastikas and SS symbols! That's what the far right in Europe does, big whoop.


that is a pretty big whoop.


Only to Russians and people who forget how weak the far right really is.

Gosh... get your facts straight...
In France the Right had 18%, in Austria 20% in the last elections... And they are far less on right then Svoboda... (even if they are far too right for my taste)

And now compare those numbers to the big brown blobs on the left side of the map... And now take out the greenish areas on the left, which are now not that happy with the western half having all the power


You make me want to smack my head into a cinderblock.

Both 18% and 20% are larger than 10.44%... there are areas in France and Austria where the far right also gets 30% of the vote... and a little bit more sometimes as well. I'm sure there places in the Ukraine where the far right gets 50%+.

Now compare those numbers to a fantasy world where eastern Ukraine doesn't count because of another fantasy where eastern Ukrainians are super-pissed and ready to do something about it over what western Ukrainians have done... there have been pro-Maidan as well as anti-Maidan demonstrations in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, several eastern government officials have said they will not support splitting the country, several others who were more defiant against the new Kiev have actually fled to Russia. The situation is not so clear cut as the caricature that the country is sharply divided literally at the middle.

So slice a bit here dice a bit there bibbity bobbity boo and so what are you saying that isn't either simply wrong or so self-serving as to beggar belief that we should accept it as reasonable. Hey if I decided that certain areas of a country don't count just because it suits me I could make any country look any way I wanted. If only I could get people to buy it. But they don't buy that crap.

Implying a right-wing party from France celebrating collaboration with Nazi Germany would get more than 10% of the vote.

edit: Maybe I missed the news where it said there are large cities in Austria where 40% of people celebrate Anschluss


Now we get to pick and choose who in the far right is actually in the far right because, wait for it, it suits you!

National Front members have been ambivalent about or defensive of the Nazis and Nazism, they keep it tamped down to get more votes these days but it was not so long ago and by that I mean just a few short years that the National Front and the smaller associated groups were doing things like - if not celebrating - defending the conduct of the German occupation of France during the war.

http://wahl13.bmi.gv.at/

I thought fascism was fascism whether urban or rural but hey the rules are whatever you and Putin need them to be today. The far right is not invisible Austrian cities.

The far right in the Ukraine is certainly more violent but I just can't seem to recall them being as violent as they were last week until elite robocops tried to steamroll them and everybody else and failed.

I'll give it to you guys you keep the discussion focused on the far right while besides "patrolling Kiev" (you do know the police and military and interior ministry troops went over to the Maidan, right?) what has the far right really done since Yanukovych left. Their leaders aren't in the conversation for winning the presidency or prime ministership after the new elections. They don't have anywhere near the numbers to take over against all the forces of the new government plus their current protester comrades. But whatever, it serves Russia more to be stubborn and ridiculous than take the greater humiliation of admitting defeat in the Ukraine, so a frenzy about fascists will continue.

And hey didn't a certain country rule the Ukraine during most of the last century and didn't it spend most of that time trying to make the Ukraine more like it, suppressing the Ukrainian culture and language? Which country is Yanukovych and the Yanukovych society a client for? Seems to me that if Ukraine is infested with fascists, we know exactly which country created the environment that bred them.

Don't we now?


And you know what's the funniest thing comes to my mind? My grandpa fought second world war agains fascism and nazis, and what's now? Potentially, 70 years later I may continue to do his "job", but the funniest things that all those fascist comes from my country! :DDD

Even tho I don't belive in this bullshit.

And I dare u, that bunch of idiots with 14/88 on their shields doesn't mean our country is infested by them at every pore.

@Cheerio

Show me whom should I blame? I'm so frustrated due to this, my dad may loose his job cause he's in Metalist structure, and I may loose my sports school.

I tell you who to blame. Sorry for saying this, but for example, you could blame your parents' generation for tolerating this shit that Yanukovich, Timoshenko and others were doing to your country. Corruption runs rampart across Ukraine and it would not be so if public opinion would not consider it something normal. Now finally people decided to do something about it, hopefully for Ukraine it won't end like the 2004 failure where a cowardly crook was replaced with bloodthirsty gas queen.

Don't take it personal, I have nothing against you and your folks, but many Ukrainians are responsible for the hell they are in now. I do not know the reasons, perhaps they were raised in such society and it was a norm. Believe me, when 10 guys controls 30% of your GDP something is very fucking wrong.

Now that your country reached almost bottom it will be tough time for everyone there. I wish you all the best guys, but there is no easy way for getting back to a decent economical level from where you are as a country now. And believe me, the money that Russia wanted to give you was a patch. Patch that would ensure well being of current corruption, because this is what Russia wants - that Ukraine would be its weak subject, not strong self-sustainable country. You need a long term solution, not pumping billions into your corrupt economy. Without structural changes, this year you pump 15 billions, next year 30 billions and suddenly you are on a Moscow leash again with 45 billions of debt. Look at Belarus now, the country which stayed with Russia. Everyone there has the same amount of goods, just enough not to die, and very shit besides it.


So u didn't said whom should I blame directly, u just said "hopefully it won't be the same like was 2004". Well, that's inspiring me... :D Hope is the last thing i want to belive in. I hope my kids will grow up in a strong country, I hope my government will be less corrupted, let's hope! Wooooo, gonna bring some champagne.

So should I blame Putin, Yanukovich, Tymoshenko, my parents, revolutioneers, U.S. department of state, masons, myself or reptiloids?

Yea, we are responsible in some ways, I'm responsible for a place I was born in :/


I'm not sure how old you are, but there are plenty of examples of modern country leaders in their late twenties or early 30's. To get to that position you need to do stuff before that. I would live in a corrupt country instead of trying to change it.

If you don't like the current situation you are always to blame. There are plenty of options in all situations, though many end up with you dying for a cause. I would likely never pick one of those options.

As for the topic itself. I don't hold any hope for major changes, doesn't feel like the discussions are about the right things. Though I might be utterly wrong and would be happy to be it.


Not that old, 10 days ago was my 24-th birthday. And yes, u right, it's hard to pick any of two sides, especially when both are pretty much equal and bad.

It is obviously for me, that bunch of previous corrupted politicians will be changed by bunch of other (opposition), we had this in 2004, already. Will be same, a bit better or worse, but just a bit.

In four years after 2004 the state budget trippled, while all markets of goods and services experienced substantial growth (around 100% on average). It wasn't that bad really.
Dav1oN
Profile Joined January 2012
Ukraine3164 Posts
February 24 2014 21:05 GMT
#1442
On February 25 2014 03:37 Ghanburighan wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2014 03:33 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
On February 25 2014 03:28 Roman666 wrote:
On February 25 2014 03:18 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
On February 25 2014 03:06 Roman666 wrote:
On February 25 2014 02:45 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
On February 25 2014 02:35 Roman666 wrote:
On February 25 2014 02:16 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
On February 25 2014 01:59 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On February 25 2014 00:44 nunez wrote:
[quote]

that is a pretty big whoop.


Only to Russians and people who forget how weak the far right really is.

Gosh... get your facts straight...
In France the Right had 18%, in Austria 20% in the last elections... And they are far less on right then Svoboda... (even if they are far too right for my taste)

And now compare those numbers to the big brown blobs on the left side of the map... And now take out the greenish areas on the left, which are now not that happy with the western half having all the power


You make me want to smack my head into a cinderblock.

Both 18% and 20% are larger than 10.44%... there are areas in France and Austria where the far right also gets 30% of the vote... and a little bit more sometimes as well. I'm sure there places in the Ukraine where the far right gets 50%+.

Now compare those numbers to a fantasy world where eastern Ukraine doesn't count because of another fantasy where eastern Ukrainians are super-pissed and ready to do something about it over what western Ukrainians have done... there have been pro-Maidan as well as anti-Maidan demonstrations in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, several eastern government officials have said they will not support splitting the country, several others who were more defiant against the new Kiev have actually fled to Russia. The situation is not so clear cut as the caricature that the country is sharply divided literally at the middle.

So slice a bit here dice a bit there bibbity bobbity boo and so what are you saying that isn't either simply wrong or so self-serving as to beggar belief that we should accept it as reasonable. Hey if I decided that certain areas of a country don't count just because it suits me I could make any country look any way I wanted. If only I could get people to buy it. But they don't buy that crap.

Implying a right-wing party from France celebrating collaboration with Nazi Germany would get more than 10% of the vote.

edit: Maybe I missed the news where it said there are large cities in Austria where 40% of people celebrate Anschluss


Now we get to pick and choose who in the far right is actually in the far right because, wait for it, it suits you!

National Front members have been ambivalent about or defensive of the Nazis and Nazism, they keep it tamped down to get more votes these days but it was not so long ago and by that I mean just a few short years that the National Front and the smaller associated groups were doing things like - if not celebrating - defending the conduct of the German occupation of France during the war.

http://wahl13.bmi.gv.at/

I thought fascism was fascism whether urban or rural but hey the rules are whatever you and Putin need them to be today. The far right is not invisible Austrian cities.

The far right in the Ukraine is certainly more violent but I just can't seem to recall them being as violent as they were last week until elite robocops tried to steamroll them and everybody else and failed.

I'll give it to you guys you keep the discussion focused on the far right while besides "patrolling Kiev" (you do know the police and military and interior ministry troops went over to the Maidan, right?) what has the far right really done since Yanukovych left. Their leaders aren't in the conversation for winning the presidency or prime ministership after the new elections. They don't have anywhere near the numbers to take over against all the forces of the new government plus their current protester comrades. But whatever, it serves Russia more to be stubborn and ridiculous than take the greater humiliation of admitting defeat in the Ukraine, so a frenzy about fascists will continue.

And hey didn't a certain country rule the Ukraine during most of the last century and didn't it spend most of that time trying to make the Ukraine more like it, suppressing the Ukrainian culture and language? Which country is Yanukovych and the Yanukovych society a client for? Seems to me that if Ukraine is infested with fascists, we know exactly which country created the environment that bred them.

Don't we now?


And you know what's the funniest thing comes to my mind? My grandpa fought second world war agains fascism and nazis, and what's now? Potentially, 70 years later I may continue to do his "job", but the funniest things that all those fascist comes from my country! :DDD

Even tho I don't belive in this bullshit.

And I dare u, that bunch of idiots with 14/88 on their shields doesn't mean our country is infested by them at every pore.

@Cheerio

Show me whom should I blame? I'm so frustrated due to this, my dad may loose his job cause he's in Metalist structure, and I may loose my sports school.

I tell you who to blame. Sorry for saying this, but for example, you could blame your parents' generation for tolerating this shit that Yanukovich, Timoshenko and others were doing to your country. Corruption runs rampart across Ukraine and it would not be so if public opinion would not consider it something normal. Now finally people decided to do something about it, hopefully for Ukraine it won't end like the 2004 failure where a cowardly crook was replaced with bloodthirsty gas queen.

Don't take it personal, I have nothing against you and your folks, but many Ukrainians are responsible for the hell they are in now. I do not know the reasons, perhaps they were raised in such society and it was a norm. Believe me, when 10 guys controls 30% of your GDP something is very fucking wrong.

Now that your country reached almost bottom it will be tough time for everyone there. I wish you all the best guys, but there is no easy way for getting back to a decent economical level from where you are as a country now. And believe me, the money that Russia wanted to give you was a patch. Patch that would ensure well being of current corruption, because this is what Russia wants - that Ukraine would be its weak subject, not strong self-sustainable country. You need a long term solution, not pumping billions into your corrupt economy. Without structural changes, this year you pump 15 billions, next year 30 billions and suddenly you are on a Moscow leash again with 45 billions of debt. Look at Belarus now, the country which stayed with Russia. Everyone there has the same amount of goods, just enough not to die, and very shit besides it.


So u didn't said whom should I blame directly, u just said "hopefully it won't be the same like was 2004". Well, that's inspiring me... :D Hope is the last thing i want to belive in. I hope my kids will grow up in a strong country, I hope my government will be less corrupted, let's hope! Wooooo, gonna bring some champagne.

So should I blame Putin, Yanukovich, Tymoshenko, my parents, revolutioneers, U.S. department of state, masons, myself or reptiloids?

Yea, we are responsible in some ways, I'm responsible for a place I was born in :/

People like you are to blame. Instead of trying to change something for the better, you are going to cry and ridicule what people write on forums. Unless you wanted your country to be someone's lapdog in the first place, then hey, why the fuck are even having this conversation at all.


I've started to be better from myself, minimum of alcohol, sports, never smoked and never had a problems with laws. Show me the way how can I become a presiden, I'll do my job as the best. Oh wait...who the hell let me be there without corrupted friends-politicians which interests I will follow during my presidency, without huge money bank, without many factors that necessary.

Or better, I'd go and try to change something for better, for example, I'll try to crush the monument of Lenin! Or I'll better throw some molotova cocktail in police office, or maybe I'll go join Titushki and support Yanukovich. Oh gush, this "better way" is so hard to find out

Yet again you want me to find you a one recipe to cover all your problems, but you fail to realize that it is small things that people do in everyday life define your nation as a whole. It does start with you, but does not end there. The small, you could think, stupid things that people do is what defines the whole societies.


Thank u for being my cap obvious! Did u saw some sarcastic notes in my previous post?


You're supposed to start small. Find things in your local community to do. Do you know of a small underfunded organization trying to make a difference? An orphanage, pet shelter, school for poor kids, schools for children with special needs, playgrounds in disrepair? Well, join them, act as a volunteer, help build them up. While you're actually making a difference, you'll learn about how funding works, how policy decisions are made (at a very low level), what matters and what does not. You can then move on to bigger things once the community scene grows too small for you. You're 24, so you've had a slow start, but you're still 40 years from your political prime.


Okay I get what u mean, basicly it gonna be a long journey to my political prime. I wish in the end I won't be corrupted...
In memory of Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson 11.09.1985 - 21.07.2019 A tribute to incredible man, embodiment of joy, esports titan, starcraft community pillar all in one. You will always be remembered!
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-24 21:30:36
February 24 2014 21:22 GMT
#1443
On February 25 2014 04:08 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2014 14:35 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:09 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 12:17 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:37 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:07 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 23 2014 12:15 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 12:00 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 23 2014 10:48 Cheerio wrote:
[quote]
can I ask you how much is your national independence worth?

Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb.

Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that.

Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism.
No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.

so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.

somehow I missed it. What are you talking about?

Hmelnitsky, great hero ukrainian nationalism was also a massive antisemite whose troops committed mass crimes against Jews.


If we're going to disqualify historical national heroes because they were also bloodthirsty, bigots or both we're gonna have about zero national heroes who were born before 1950 for any country you can name.

I am not, I am just making a point that Cheerio's obsession with taking down Lenin statutes is stupid. That guy is as part of Ukrainian history as Hmelinstky is. And they both have blood on their hands. The only difference is taking down Lenin statutes also pointlessly spreads fear among Russian speakers.

If this is going personal, my position is the following: I am offended by the statue of Lenin in the central square of my town due to historic reasons. I recognise that the statue has historic value. There are hundreds of thousands of people like me. If the local authorities want to preserve it, please demote it and place somewhere else, where it would not be "glorifying" somebody I consider a mass murderer of Ukrainian people. People have been waiting for it's demotion for 23 years now. If you do not, I will do my best to bring it down when the right opportunity arrises.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 24 2014 21:31 GMT
#1444
Sounds like the Lenin statues issues are reminiscent of the issues with the confederate flag in America.
There's no good answer to a situation like that sadly.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
February 24 2014 21:33 GMT
#1445
On February 25 2014 04:23 Novel wrote:
About future role of Svoboda.
2 Hours ago Oleg Makhnitsky (member of Svoboda) was appointed as General Attorney.
As it seems Svoboda cooperating with U.D.A.R. (Klitschko party).
Tyahnybok (Svoboda leader) created project of lustration law, which is supported by U.D.A.R. Klitschko even mentioned it today. Now they are researching past examples of such laws (Poland, Czech, Georgia, Latvia and so on). It should be ready in two months according to Svoboda guys. If this law will pass (and both parties expect it to pass) it can destroy Party of Regions because all people who had business with Yanukovich or his gang will be forced out of politics and goverment work. And if it will be timed out properly (right before new parliament elections) it will leave Eastern Ukraine with no reliable representatives. Because it takes time to push new people in the political scene. Also it will most likely cut out Timoshenko
from any elections.
On the other hand there were rumors of discontent between members of Batkivshina (Timoshenko and Yatsenyuk's party).
According to this rumors they are not happy with the fact that most legislative initiatives were rushed and not discussed properly. And there is always a problem of Timoshenko who is the head of the party, but not really.

Next elections will be interesting.
As I see it - Svoboda will back up Klitschko as their front boy vs. most likely Timoshenko and some pro-russian candidate (might be Poroshenko). In this situation Klitschko actually have good chances, unless Timoshenko will somehow get pro-russian electorate (which is actually possible, she isn't really popular in West Ukraine anymore due to broken promises from 2004).
If Klitschko wins or lustration law will pass Ukraine will have goverment leaning right and some conflicts with pro-russian parts of the country (mainly - Crimea).
If Timoshenko wins - ... Who knows. She had pretty corrupt past, but she is smart and most likely will not shoot herself in the leg again. Also - in the Eastern Ukraine she at least have general respect of population.
Purely pro-russian guy won't win in any sane scenario.
Will be fun to observe.

UPDATE.
As it seems governor of Kharkov region Mikhail Dobkin will run for Presidents chair. Most likely he will pose as pro-russian candidate. It understandable, he have nothing to lose. But still - he have little to no chance for victory. He was in Yanukovich gang, after all.



That's super interesting to follow up on. Thank you for posting it!
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
February 24 2014 21:46 GMT
#1446
On February 25 2014 04:23 Novel wrote:
About future role of Svoboda.
2 Hours ago Oleg Makhnitsky (member of Svoboda) was appointed as General Attorney.
As it seems Svoboda cooperating with U.D.A.R. (Klitschko party).
Tyahnybok (Svoboda leader) created project of lustration law, which is supported by U.D.A.R. Klitschko even mentioned it today. Now they are researching past examples of such laws (Poland, Czech, Georgia, Latvia and so on). It should be ready in two months according to Svoboda guys. If this law will pass (and both parties expect it to pass) it can destroy Party of Regions because all people who had business with Yanukovich or his gang will be forced out of politics and goverment work. And if it will be timed out properly (right before new parliament elections) it will leave Eastern Ukraine with no reliable representatives. Because it takes time to push new people in the political scene. Also it will most likely cut out Timoshenko
from any elections.
On the other hand there were rumors of discontent between members of Batkivshina (Timoshenko and Yatsenyuk's party).
According to this rumors they are not happy with the fact that most legislative initiatives were rushed and not discussed properly. And there is always a problem of Timoshenko who is the head of the party, but not really.

Next elections will be interesting.
As I see it - Svoboda will back up Klitschko as their front boy vs. most likely Timoshenko and some pro-russian candidate (might be Poroshenko). In this situation Klitschko actually have good chances, unless Timoshenko will somehow get pro-russian electorate (which is actually possible, she isn't really popular in West Ukraine anymore due to broken promises from 2004).
If Klitschko wins or lustration law will pass Ukraine will have goverment leaning right and some conflicts with pro-russian parts of the country (mainly - Crimea).
If Timoshenko wins - ... Who knows. She had pretty corrupt past, but she is smart and most likely will not shoot herself in the leg again. Also - in the Eastern Ukraine she at least have general respect of population.
Purely pro-russian guy won't win in any sane scenario.
Will be fun to observe.

UPDATE.
As it seems governor of Kharkov region Mikhail Dobkin will run for Presidents chair. Most likely he will pose as pro-russian candidate. It understandable, he have nothing to lose. But still - he have little to no chance for victory. He was in Yanukovich gang, after all.


I'm not sure where you are getting your facts from but your understanding is way off.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
February 24 2014 21:56 GMT
#1447
On February 25 2014 06:22 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2014 04:08 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:35 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:09 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 12:17 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:37 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:07 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 23 2014 12:15 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 12:00 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb.

Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that.

Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism.
No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.

so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.

somehow I missed it. What are you talking about?

Hmelnitsky, great hero ukrainian nationalism was also a massive antisemite whose troops committed mass crimes against Jews.


If we're going to disqualify historical national heroes because they were also bloodthirsty, bigots or both we're gonna have about zero national heroes who were born before 1950 for any country you can name.

I am not, I am just making a point that Cheerio's obsession with taking down Lenin statutes is stupid. That guy is as part of Ukrainian history as Hmelinstky is. And they both have blood on their hands. The only difference is taking down Lenin statutes also pointlessly spreads fear among Russian speakers.

If this is going personal, my position is the following: I am offended by the statue of Lenin in the central square of my town due to historic reasons. I recognise that the statue has historic value. There are hundreds of thousands of people like me. If the local authorities want to preserve it, please demote it and place somewhere else, where it would not be "glorifying" somebody I consider a mass murderer of Ukrainian people. People have been waiting for it's demotion for 23 years now. If you do not, I will do my best to bring it down when the right opportunity arrises.
But you are not offended at having an antisemitic mass murderer on your hrivyna and with statutes scattered around the country? I am sure there are many Jewish-Ukrainians who wish those removed too, obviously for historical reasons -- including Hmelnitsky's pogrom against them -- there are not hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian Jews on the streets in present moment to start tearing down his statutes and needlessly provoking other Ukrainians. But you seem to say that if there were enough of them to do it and they were fired enough up it would be okay.
Novel
Profile Joined December 2012
Russian Federation32 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-24 22:08:13
February 24 2014 22:05 GMT
#1448
On February 25 2014 06:46 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2014 04:23 Novel wrote:
About future role of Svoboda.
2 Hours ago Oleg Makhnitsky (member of Svoboda) was appointed as General Attorney.
As it seems Svoboda cooperating with U.D.A.R. (Klitschko party).
Tyahnybok (Svoboda leader) created project of lustration law, which is supported by U.D.A.R. Klitschko even mentioned it today. Now they are researching past examples of such laws (Poland, Czech, Georgia, Latvia and so on). It should be ready in two months according to Svoboda guys. If this law will pass (and both parties expect it to pass) it can destroy Party of Regions because all people who had business with Yanukovich or his gang will be forced out of politics and goverment work. And if it will be timed out properly (right before new parliament elections) it will leave Eastern Ukraine with no reliable representatives. Because it takes time to push new people in the political scene. Also it will most likely cut out Timoshenko
from any elections.
On the other hand there were rumors of discontent between members of Batkivshina (Timoshenko and Yatsenyuk's party).
According to this rumors they are not happy with the fact that most legislative initiatives were rushed and not discussed properly. And there is always a problem of Timoshenko who is the head of the party, but not really.

Next elections will be interesting.
As I see it - Svoboda will back up Klitschko as their front boy vs. most likely Timoshenko and some pro-russian candidate (might be Poroshenko). In this situation Klitschko actually have good chances, unless Timoshenko will somehow get pro-russian electorate (which is actually possible, she isn't really popular in West Ukraine anymore due to broken promises from 2004).
If Klitschko wins or lustration law will pass Ukraine will have goverment leaning right and some conflicts with pro-russian parts of the country (mainly - Crimea).
If Timoshenko wins - ... Who knows. She had pretty corrupt past, but she is smart and most likely will not shoot herself in the leg again. Also - in the Eastern Ukraine she at least have general respect of population.
Purely pro-russian guy won't win in any sane scenario.
Will be fun to observe.

UPDATE.
As it seems governor of Kharkov region Mikhail Dobkin will run for Presidents chair. Most likely he will pose as pro-russian candidate. It understandable, he have nothing to lose. But still - he have little to no chance for victory. He was in Yanukovich gang, after all.


I'm not sure where you are getting your facts from but your understanding is way off.


Facts from business medias (About Dobkin, Makhnitskiy, cooperation between U.D.A.R. and Svoboda on lustrition law, Batkivshina rumor as well).
Rest are mostly opinions from my relatives in Kyiv, Volyn and friends from Sevastopol. Plus my own thoughts.
If you will point out there am I wrong - it would be cool, because my relatives and friends are mostly indifferent or hostile towards Euromaydan. I would really like to hear your prognosis, even if you are biased (no offence).
lord_nibbler
Profile Joined March 2004
Germany591 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-24 22:13:47
February 24 2014 22:11 GMT
#1449
On February 25 2014 06:56 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2014 06:22 Cheerio wrote:
On February 25 2014 04:08 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:35 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:09 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 12:17 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:37 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:07 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 23 2014 12:15 Cheerio wrote:
[quote]
Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that.

Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism.
No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.

so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.

somehow I missed it. What are you talking about?

Hmelnitsky, great hero ukrainian nationalism was also a massive antisemite whose troops committed mass crimes against Jews.


If we're going to disqualify historical national heroes because they were also bloodthirsty, bigots or both we're gonna have about zero national heroes who were born before 1950 for any country you can name.

I am not, I am just making a point that Cheerio's obsession with taking down Lenin statutes is stupid. That guy is as part of Ukrainian history as Hmelinstky is. And they both have blood on their hands. The only difference is taking down Lenin statutes also pointlessly spreads fear among Russian speakers.

If this is going personal, my position is the following: I am offended by the statue of Lenin in the central square of my town due to historic reasons. I recognise that the statue has historic value. There are hundreds of thousands of people like me. If the local authorities want to preserve it, please demote it and place somewhere else, where it would not be "glorifying" somebody I consider a mass murderer of Ukrainian people. People have been waiting for it's demotion for 23 years now. If you do not, I will do my best to bring it down when the right opportunity arrises.
But you are not offended at having an antisemitic mass murderer on your hrivyna and with statutes scattered around the country? I am sure there are many Jewish-Ukrainians who wish those removed too, obviously for historical reasons -- including Hmelnitsky's pogrom against them -- there are not hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian Jews on the streets in present moment to start tearing down his statutes and needlessly provoking other Ukrainians. But you seem to say that if there were enough of them to do it and they were fired enough up it would be okay.

I am curious, is this Lenin statue thing actually a real topic in the Ukraine right now or are you only arguing it here?
Because it looks to me like a typical fox news distraction topic. Totally unimportant, especially given all the other stuff that is happening.

The biggest question mark I have, is about the role of the special police and intelligence service. So they finally stopped killing the protesters and seemingly switched sides, but what now? Powerful people usually do not hand over their power that easily.

So far, I am not convinced, that this 'revolution' will not play out like Egypt's...
Dav1oN
Profile Joined January 2012
Ukraine3164 Posts
February 24 2014 22:29 GMT
#1450
On February 25 2014 07:11 lord_nibbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2014 06:56 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 25 2014 06:22 Cheerio wrote:
On February 25 2014 04:08 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:35 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:09 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 12:17 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:37 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:07 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism.
No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.

so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.

somehow I missed it. What are you talking about?

Hmelnitsky, great hero ukrainian nationalism was also a massive antisemite whose troops committed mass crimes against Jews.


If we're going to disqualify historical national heroes because they were also bloodthirsty, bigots or both we're gonna have about zero national heroes who were born before 1950 for any country you can name.

I am not, I am just making a point that Cheerio's obsession with taking down Lenin statutes is stupid. That guy is as part of Ukrainian history as Hmelinstky is. And they both have blood on their hands. The only difference is taking down Lenin statutes also pointlessly spreads fear among Russian speakers.

If this is going personal, my position is the following: I am offended by the statue of Lenin in the central square of my town due to historic reasons. I recognise that the statue has historic value. There are hundreds of thousands of people like me. If the local authorities want to preserve it, please demote it and place somewhere else, where it would not be "glorifying" somebody I consider a mass murderer of Ukrainian people. People have been waiting for it's demotion for 23 years now. If you do not, I will do my best to bring it down when the right opportunity arrises.
But you are not offended at having an antisemitic mass murderer on your hrivyna and with statutes scattered around the country? I am sure there are many Jewish-Ukrainians who wish those removed too, obviously for historical reasons -- including Hmelnitsky's pogrom against them -- there are not hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian Jews on the streets in present moment to start tearing down his statutes and needlessly provoking other Ukrainians. But you seem to say that if there were enough of them to do it and they were fired enough up it would be okay.

I am curious, is this Lenin statue thing actually a real topic in the Ukraine right now or are you only arguing it here?
Because it looks to me like a typical fox news distraction topic. Totally unimportant, especially given all the other stuff that is happening.

The biggest question mark I have, is about the role of the special police and intelligence service. So they finally stopped killing the protesters and seemingly switched sides, but what now? Powerful people usually do not hand over their power that easily.

So far, I am not convinced, that this 'revolution' will not play out like Egypt's...


It's a real topic for some riots, ppl got nowhere to put their energy, so historical and cultural stuff falling down due to their pressure, not everywhere but still...

Well, let's hope no more blood will be spilled.
In memory of Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson 11.09.1985 - 21.07.2019 A tribute to incredible man, embodiment of joy, esports titan, starcraft community pillar all in one. You will always be remembered!
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
February 24 2014 22:33 GMT
#1451
I concur that this doesn't seem like it will play out especially well. I'm not seeing strong evidence of sound and thorough plans for effective institutional change. Too many of the usual players involved. No really strong statesmen who could shift to something effective; and probably not enough education about government design for the populace at large to have a good sense of how to do it.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
February 24 2014 23:58 GMT
#1452
On February 25 2014 07:11 lord_nibbler wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2014 06:56 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 25 2014 06:22 Cheerio wrote:
On February 25 2014 04:08 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:35 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:09 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 12:17 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:37 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:07 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 12:29 Sub40APM wrote:
[quote]
Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism.
No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.

so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.

somehow I missed it. What are you talking about?

Hmelnitsky, great hero ukrainian nationalism was also a massive antisemite whose troops committed mass crimes against Jews.


If we're going to disqualify historical national heroes because they were also bloodthirsty, bigots or both we're gonna have about zero national heroes who were born before 1950 for any country you can name.

I am not, I am just making a point that Cheerio's obsession with taking down Lenin statutes is stupid. That guy is as part of Ukrainian history as Hmelinstky is. And they both have blood on their hands. The only difference is taking down Lenin statutes also pointlessly spreads fear among Russian speakers.

If this is going personal, my position is the following: I am offended by the statue of Lenin in the central square of my town due to historic reasons. I recognise that the statue has historic value. There are hundreds of thousands of people like me. If the local authorities want to preserve it, please demote it and place somewhere else, where it would not be "glorifying" somebody I consider a mass murderer of Ukrainian people. People have been waiting for it's demotion for 23 years now. If you do not, I will do my best to bring it down when the right opportunity arrises.
But you are not offended at having an antisemitic mass murderer on your hrivyna and with statutes scattered around the country? I am sure there are many Jewish-Ukrainians who wish those removed too, obviously for historical reasons -- including Hmelnitsky's pogrom against them -- there are not hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian Jews on the streets in present moment to start tearing down his statutes and needlessly provoking other Ukrainians. But you seem to say that if there were enough of them to do it and they were fired enough up it would be okay.

I am curious, is this Lenin statue thing actually a real topic in the Ukraine right now or are you only arguing it here?
Because it looks to me like a typical fox news distraction topic. Totally unimportant, especially given all the other stuff that is happening.

So far, I am not convinced, that this 'revolution' will not play out like Egypt's...

It feeds into Russian propaganda against the revolution and it drives 0 actual benefit to the revolution, except I guess Cheerio feels better about it after 23 years of bravely dealing with it. In a situation where political capital is pretty important -- to me -- it seems like a huge waste of it that lets young guys from the West feel like they are giving Putin the ole' middle finger but in reality given Putin another video clip they can show in the East and in Russia to say "SEe, FASCIST TERRORISTS!"
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
February 25 2014 04:08 GMT
#1453
On February 25 2014 08:58 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 25 2014 07:11 lord_nibbler wrote:
On February 25 2014 06:56 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 25 2014 06:22 Cheerio wrote:
On February 25 2014 04:08 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:35 DeepElemBlues wrote:
On February 24 2014 14:09 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 24 2014 12:17 Cheerio wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:37 Sub40APM wrote:
On February 23 2014 14:07 Cheerio wrote:
[quote]No, we don't. It's basically Lenin everywhere in central streets and squares.

so? you have antisemite murderer on a bunch of your hrivna.

somehow I missed it. What are you talking about?

Hmelnitsky, great hero ukrainian nationalism was also a massive antisemite whose troops committed mass crimes against Jews.


If we're going to disqualify historical national heroes because they were also bloodthirsty, bigots or both we're gonna have about zero national heroes who were born before 1950 for any country you can name.

I am not, I am just making a point that Cheerio's obsession with taking down Lenin statutes is stupid. That guy is as part of Ukrainian history as Hmelinstky is. And they both have blood on their hands. The only difference is taking down Lenin statutes also pointlessly spreads fear among Russian speakers.

If this is going personal, my position is the following: I am offended by the statue of Lenin in the central square of my town due to historic reasons. I recognise that the statue has historic value. There are hundreds of thousands of people like me. If the local authorities want to preserve it, please demote it and place somewhere else, where it would not be "glorifying" somebody I consider a mass murderer of Ukrainian people. People have been waiting for it's demotion for 23 years now. If you do not, I will do my best to bring it down when the right opportunity arrises.
But you are not offended at having an antisemitic mass murderer on your hrivyna and with statutes scattered around the country? I am sure there are many Jewish-Ukrainians who wish those removed too, obviously for historical reasons -- including Hmelnitsky's pogrom against them -- there are not hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian Jews on the streets in present moment to start tearing down his statutes and needlessly provoking other Ukrainians. But you seem to say that if there were enough of them to do it and they were fired enough up it would be okay.

I am curious, is this Lenin statue thing actually a real topic in the Ukraine right now or are you only arguing it here?
Because it looks to me like a typical fox news distraction topic. Totally unimportant, especially given all the other stuff that is happening.

So far, I am not convinced, that this 'revolution' will not play out like Egypt's...

It feeds into Russian propaganda against the revolution and it drives 0 actual benefit to the revolution, except I guess Cheerio feels better about it after 23 years of bravely dealing with it. In a situation where political capital is pretty important -- to me -- it seems like a huge waste of it that lets young guys from the West feel like they are giving Putin the ole' middle finger but in reality given Putin another video clip they can show in the East and in Russia to say "SEe, FASCIST TERRORISTS!"

Yeah, clearly Putin cares so much about uploading 100th video of Lenin going down with a "those evil fascists" comment. After Lenins started going down the propaganda damage was already done. It doesn't really matter now if there are 10, or 100 of them for somebody who's on the outside of the events (it may actually be viewed as a right thing to do since it's on such a large scale) , but it does matter for people still having Lenins on their streets. And those are not Westerners doing that. They brought down theirs years ago and probably helped with the one in Kyiv. It's mostly Central Ukraine now.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-25 04:58:18
February 25 2014 04:51 GMT
#1454
A preliminary plan for Euromaidan assault has leaked out. Most importantly it includes names of people responsible for it's smallest details with telephone numbers. There are even some names of snipers. You can give them a call.

http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/02/24/7016050/

[image loading]
zatic
Profile Blog Joined September 2007
Zurich15323 Posts
February 25 2014 08:03 GMT
#1455
On February 25 2014 04:51 Sub40APM wrote:
http://qz.com/180511/ukraine-unrest-stems-from-two-decades-of-squandered-post-soviet-independence/

Show nested quote +
At purchasing-power parity, Poland’s GDP per capita has almost quadrupled since 1992, according to data from the IMF. Over the same period, Ukraine’s only grew by a bit more than 40%.
Ukraine stands out among the former members of the Eastern Bloc. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, Ukraine’s GDP per capita has grown by less than 2% per year on average, lagging every other country in the region
Even more galling, perhaps, is the development of a place like Belarus, a Soviet-style dictatorship and stalwart member of the Russian-led Eurasian Union. Although a basket case in many ways, when measured by GDP-per-capita Belarus is now more than twice as rich as Ukraine; the two were on roughly equal economic footing in the mid-1990s.

I find the most striking picture about Ukraine is this:

[image loading]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine
ModeratorI know Teamliquid is known as a massive building
Ramong
Profile Joined March 2011
Denmark1706 Posts
February 25 2014 09:49 GMT
#1456
On February 25 2014 13:51 Cheerio wrote:
A preliminary plan for Euromaidan assault has leaked out. Most importantly it includes names of people responsible for it's smallest details with telephone numbers. There are even some names of snipers. You can give them a call.

http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/news/2014/02/24/7016050/

[image loading]

Please don't

Beginning a revenge murder spree on the people responsible for the assault will only make Ukrain look bad in international eyes, while proving Putin right.

Forgive and forget
"Yeah buddy"
Zealos
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United Kingdom3571 Posts
February 25 2014 09:54 GMT
#1457
I think those snipers are fucked.

I'm not sure how I feel about that.
On the internet if you disagree with or dislike something you're angry and taking it too seriously. == Join TLMafia !
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-25 10:37:02
February 25 2014 09:59 GMT
#1458
Who's talking about a revenge murder spree?! There are no signs that this is what's happening.

+ Show Spoiler [On the whole minorities issue] +

Kiev’s Maidan Nezalezhnosti—Independence Square—is a 20-minute walk from where I lived a decade ago. I was a graduate student, researching the historical interaction between the region’s subcultures—especially Jews, Russians, and Ukrainians. I arrived expecting, from my readings on 19th- and even 20th-century Ukraine, these groups to be isolated from one another, and yet their circles, in an independent and rapidly modernizing Ukraine, overlapped.

It was a country where the late actor Bogdan Stupka could move audiences by playing Tevye the Dairyman—in Ukrainian. In 2004, during the Orange Revolution—triggered by protests against a fraudulent election “won” by Viktor Yanukovych—my Ukrainian friends demonstrated alongside Boris Naumovich, an octogenarian veteran of the Red Army with whom I practiced speaking Yiddish. Now, a decade later, an equally diverse coalition has turned out for the past four months again to protest Yanukovych, who over the weekend was ousted from the presidency he took over in 2010, and who appears to have fled to the Crimea.

In independent Ukraine the region’s historically disparate ethnic narratives have converged to allow for a cosmopolitan coexistence. But conflicts on Ukrainian squares have historically reopened divides among the country’s ethnic minorities. In 1881, the assassination of Tsar Alexander II by revolutionaries led to the first major outbreak of pogroms against Jews. The failed 1905 revolution led to another wave of attacks. Literary accounts of the 1918-21 Ukrainian civil war describe the escalation from revolutionary protests to anti-Semitic violence. A voice from a chaotic crowd in Mikhail Bulgakov’s White Guard, set in Kiev in 1918, comes to mind: “We should go to the bazaar and beat up some Jews.”

It appears that those aligned with Russian President Vladimir Putin are happy to stir up those old enmities. Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has angrily called the leaders of the Ukrainian Maidan movement “armed extremists” and accused them of committing pogroms against the police. Over the weekend, Rabbi Moshe Reuven Azman, of Kiev’s Chabad synagogue, urged Jews to leave the city and has even reached out to Israel’s Soviet-born Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, asking for support in the event of anti-Semitic attacks.

It would be convenient for Vladimir Putin if the protesters who have been in Kiev’s Maidan and on city squares across Ukraine all winter could be universally characterized as right-wing, anti-Semitic, ethnic supremacists—and, more to the point, if antagonism toward the country’s Jews could be shown to predominate in the country’s west, positioning Russia as the guarantor of their safety in the East. Make no mistake: It is indeed true that portraits of the Ukrainian nationalist hero Stepan Bandera hang near the Kiev barricades, and that some nationalists have been involved in the current revolution. It is also true that over the weekend a synagogue in eastern Ukraine was hit by fire bombs. But some reports suggest that much of the street violence that has occurred has been initiated by so-called Titushki—thugs hired to turn a peaceful protest violent—and that many of the deaths last Thursday were at the hands of snipers who shot at unarmed protesters. Last week’s escalation of violence helped Russia to justify making official announcements calling on the leaders of the “square” to “end the bloodshed on their end.”

The scene that activists in both the West and the East of Ukraine describe involves diversity without ethnic violence. The Maidan demonstrators have been protesting not only Yanukovych, but also those who would like to see the country divided in two, which would both drastically weaken Ukraine and bolster a Russian imperial presence in the region. The Russian political theorist Aleksandr Dugin has suggested, “Moscow should get actively involved in the reorganization of the Ukrainian space in accordance with the only logical and natural geopolitical model.” Both the governor of the eastern Kharkiv region, Mikhail Dobkin, as well as the mayor of the city of Kharkiv, Gennadyi Kernes, are of Jewish origin, and both have joined Russian proponents of a division of Ukraine into eastern and western segments. Some Internet trolls to make anti-Semitic slurs, but the leaders of the Maidan movement have not.

A great number of protest organizers across Ukraine are Jewish intellectuals: artists, teachers, and academics among others, of varying ages. On Monday, Vadym Rabynovych, the president of the Ukrainian Jewish Congress and owner of the TV channel Jewish News 1, issued a statement characterizing the protesters’ relationship to the Jewish community as “tolerant and peaceful” and suggesting that claims to the contrary are merely provocations. Many prominent Jews have come out in support of the Maidan movement, among them the oligarch Victor Pinchuk, the journalist Vitaly Portnikov, and the artist Aleksandr Roitburd. My friend and colleague Anatoliy Kerzhner wrote to me of the pointed inclusion of Jewish events on the Maidan platform: Rabbi Hillel Cohen of one of the city’s Orthodox synagogues offered a prayer for peace, the Pushkin Klezmer Band performed Yiddish songs, and scholars lectured about Ukrainian Jewish history.

Some Ukrainian-born Jews who have emigrated to Israel and served in its army have returned to Kiev in order to help the cause by putting their military experience into practice. “Either ethnicity is not important to this struggle yet, or it is not important in general,” my friend Yury Yakubov, a 30-year-old designer from Kharkiv, told me. Moreover, a number of Ukrainian immigrants in Israel have voiced their support of the Maidan. A 10-minute YouTube video shows a string of candid speeches in Russian and Ukrainian by Ukrainian-Israelis in support of Ukraine’s ability to join the European Union as an independent nation. Another video pairs a Ukrainian rap song celebrating independence with images of Ukrainian Israelis holding signs in support of the Maidan.

Now that Yanukovych has left, what is at stake is the preservation not of an imagined Ukrainian ethnic sovereignty, but of a richly multiethnic territory—a country that has over the past two decades worked to knit itself into existence and to acknowledge the complexities and antagonisms of the past. It is a country that encompasses multiple histories—among them Jewish, Ukrainian, Polish, Soviet, Hapsburg, and Ottoman. It is a country where you can board a train in Kiev at night and wake up in formerly Hapsburg Chernivtsi, or in Catherine the Great’s Odessa, or in industrial Kharkiv. When Lavrov attempts to resurrect a history of pogroms with his comments about the Maidan he is effectively admitting that he still views Ukraine in 19th-century terms, as a satellite of Russia, which relegated its minorities to the outskirts of the empire, and where diversity was a liability.

Ukraine is still a new country, but its citizens, and particularly its young citizens, see the country’s diversity as one of its great assets. “Look, there is nowhere else we can go,” Yakubov said to me over Skype from Kharkiv last week, just after what has come to be known as “Bloody Thursday.” “So we have to fight for this.”
Source.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
Novel
Profile Joined December 2012
Russian Federation32 Posts
February 25 2014 11:26 GMT
#1459
On February 25 2014 18:59 Ghanburighan wrote:
Who's talking about a revenge murder spree?! There are no signs that this is what's happening.


Of course there will be no "revenge murder spree". But still - it is pretty stupid to release such information in public.
There always be some Svoboda or Pravyi Sector idiots who can find and hurt them.
For example - yesterday group of people calling themself "fighters of Maydan's self-defence" broke into Petr Simonenko's (leader of the Communist party of Ukraine) house and burned it. Communists says that thay were looking for compomising materials but found none.

About monuments - not only Lenin's are falling. Also were destroyed monument of Kutuzov (famous russian general from XVIII century) in Brody (Western Ukraine) and the monument of Soviet Soldier in Stryi (Western Ukraine, near Lvov).
About Lenins - I have nothing against removal of them. But I do not understand, why it need to be executed in form of vandalism. If you want to remove monument - you need to do it on municipal (or even maybe national) level. And I don't think there will be any problems with it, considering latest events. That way it will be legit and non-barbaric.

Also - some news:
- If you are interested - there is new website - yanukovychleaks.org. It is pretty much what is it's name implying. Some documents from Yanukovich former residence. Mostly corruption and high spendings, like sauna complex for 2m$.
- Rating agency Standard&Poor's lowered Ukraine rating to CCC with negative forecast. They are saying that default is "possible''. Ratings of 3 big ukranian banks were lowered as well.
- Yatsenyuk trying to push representatives from Maydan factions into new goverment. Among others there are singer Ruslana, who won Eurovision in 2004. I somehow find it funny.
- Main kazakhstanian airline cancelled all flights to Kyiv, due to dangerous situation in the city. Looks pretty strange, if not stupid (why now?). I guess it has something to do with yesterdays phonetalk between Nazarbaev and Putin. Lets hope it isn't some dark omen.
- Putin's approval rating increased, sadly. We can thank for that Euromaydan and American media's reaction on Sochi. It worked well for the enemy image, Putin trying to create.
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-25 11:34:49
February 25 2014 11:33 GMT
#1460
Thank you for the very informative post, I'd like to emphasize the link you sent: yanukovychleaks.org Well worth taking a look, and it also seems quite well managed.
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
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