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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated. New policy, please read before posting: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21393711 | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 23 2014 02:32 Roman666 wrote: EDIT: Also Russian envoy did not sign the agreement as a witness, so what kind of credibility Russia has now, picking on the agreement which it did not sign? Exactly | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 23 2014 03:41 radiatoren wrote: A solution with a little legitimacy would be holding an election under current laws, let the winner change the laws and immediately start a new election. I doubt that will happen, though. what you are proposing is not democracy, it's bureaucracy | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
that's photoshop. I have been there today in the evening. It wasn't there, trust me. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 23 2014 05:38 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Who are u to my country to decide what should be here? Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago. Are you happy now? | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 23 2014 05:42 Sub40APM wrote: Maybe, but Lenin was also the guy who before Soviet's captured Kiev turned Kharkiv into the capital of the Ukraine SSR and then the Communists spend billions to make it the industrial heartland of Ukraine. I think people who are busy pulling down statutes when real reforms havent even began are the kind of idiots Ukrainian reformists dont need on their side. can I ask you how much is your national independence worth? | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
On February 23 2014 10:17 Cheerio wrote: what you are proposing is not democracy, it's bureaucracy Also it sounds like his suggestion would be much better if it is a referendum instead. Letting the winner decide rules is dangerous as well. Think for a few seconds why. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 23 2014 05:50 disciple wrote: You do know that when Yanukovich was running for the 2010 elections EU integration was his #1 priority, right?Correct me if I'm wrong but all Baltic Republics are in the EU right ? This is not about the importance of the Russian cultural influence but about political direction. Kazakhstan has no border to any EU country so it's not worth talking about it in this context. If anything in my humble opinion whoever has the clear pro-russia platform in the next election has the highest chance of winning cause the opposition like in most of those cases will be hardly unified as there's no one figure to present pro-EU policy in a way protesters will all stand behind while pro-russia as a direction is much more clear cut. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 23 2014 06:49 zeo wrote: As for the snipers... sigh... I'm sure Yanukovych looked at what happened in Syria and Libya and thought to himself 'hmm sniping people in the streets won't be the worst thing I can do right now, its not like random sniper killings helped legitimize Al-Quaida rebellions in Syria' so what's your theory behind the mass killings of the 20th February? | ||
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Greem
730 Posts
On February 23 2014 10:45 Cheerio wrote: Lenin is a symbol of Russian imperialism and brutal repression of the Ukraine, his statues should have been taken down 20 years ago. Are you happy now? Hes not alone, remember that. This thread is so one sided, this is not disscusion , this is mainstream flow in one direction. My grandma is from central Ukraine, all of my friends are from there, and I assure you, there are people who got nothing against Lenin, its like burning churches, blaming god for economic instability. There is no evidence of god, and Lenin long dead, so no point of blaming stuff on something. Its pointless to write here, because majority here got one sided opinion. And before you all throw me to one side or another , i'll say that my only hope is that this shit that happened wont polarize all my friends in Ukraine, and people who live there. Its true that depending on oblast, province, opinions can change, but Ukraine is that kind of country, a great mix, tolerant , when i lived there for 15 years i haven't heard talks like "pro russian" or "pro european", this separatist shit appeared recently i guess. I'm sorry for Zeo, and i don't understand why he keeps writing here, under such heavy attacks and ever insults. As i said this thread is too one sided, "alien" opinions got critized and crusified. I telling not because i support him or dont, some things i agree some dont, as in other posters responses, but its just plain example on how people who unable to take a different view, group up against 1 man. Pathetic for TL users i would say. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On February 23 2014 11:02 Cheerio wrote: You do know that when Yanukovich was running for the 2010 elections EU integration was his #1 priority, right? And EU integration failed, as the EU had no intention to integrate Ukraine in it's current state. The EU refused to give any financial aid to the Ukraine, and so the Russian used the opening. Well done. And even though Tymoshenko claims, the Ukraine would join the EU soon and then miraculously everything would be better... It won't happen. The EU learned from it's disasters, and ask Greece or all the other EU members receiving funds right now, how much fun it is, to get money from the EU. It is not... The requirements and restriction are so high, that for good reasons those countries feel blackmailed. Well... The EU is no charity organisation for failed nations and has no intention to burn money on those. If you get money from Russia, they want your power... If you get it from the EU, they want your economy. Well, off course the EU will always offer the partnership, they have proposed all the time. As in 'if we can get your power for free, of course we take it, thanks' Now if you alienate the Russians, rough times await the Ukraine  You are quite dependent on Russia economically, and as said above, the EU won't change it's stance on throwing money in endless pits. And if really Tymoshenko is your angel... then better prepare the next revolution. Wasn't it her, who made the Ukrainian-Russian gas deal? (after, as usual, she failed her negotiations with the EU, as the EU won't give anything for free) Recent events made such deals more unlikely, but at the same time for the EU nothing has changed. A Ukraine led by Tymoshenko is only slightly better then a Ukraine led by Yanukovitch... and far away from ever coming close to any serious business with the EU. So advice for your next revolution: Before you start it... think about who shall lead your country afterwards... If changing faces without changing characteristics is your only idea... well... skip the bloodshed and stay home. Imho there were two reasonable options for an improvement: a) try to get a neutral position between Russia and the EU, overhaul the whole political system and get rid of all that corrupt ppl like yanukovitch and tymoshenko... If the leadership would finally use the money for developing the Ukraine, instead of leeching it into their own pockets, there surely would be a chance for the Ukraine to recover economically and then they suddenly would also be interesting for the EU or trade agreements with Russia, that are about economy and not about power. But this would have required a slower approach to the things... Yes, an approach that does not throw away the deal made 2 days ago. Yes, maybe it would have meant that elections would have happened in december instead of may.... It would have required to actually really negotiate with yanokovitch... He would lose the elections anyway... But that way even his supporters or Russia would have no way to doubt the legitimacy of the process. (and maybe until then some more reasonable alternatives then tymoshenko would have shown up...) But the protesters wanted everything right away, ignoring that they had already won... There was no turning back... They could have gotten it anyway... b) Do a radical move towards Europe. Well... This would require to accept the european conditions for financial aid... As mentioned above, those are not fun. (ask greece) And most likely they are not, what the Ukrainians want, even though it may be for their best long term.... But such a move would require the personal to do it. And as seen in the troubled EU nations... there are not many politicians able to force such measures on their own people without losing support right away... So the person would have to be able to convince the Ukrainians and the EU, that this is possible... And as there is not even a person in sight right now, that could convince the EU, and even less your own people... yeah... option failed. But in any case, a huge drawback would be, that it would be hard to keep the territorial integrity with that option... But right now it looks all like you replace one highly corrupt leech with another one, completely alienate the Russians, who are actually paying you good money for their influence (even though most of the money is drained by corruption, awesome) and then hope that the EU will pull you out. Won't happen. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On February 23 2014 10:48 Cheerio wrote: can I ask you how much is your national independence worth? Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: Ukraine is a divided state and the elites from both sides have proven to be totally corrupt and inept at governing. What is clear is that this has nothing to do with democracy. It's simply more cold-war style jockeying. It's telling when Victoria Nuland is not hoping for the Ukrainian people to choose their next leader, instead she's evaluating which candidate is better for American interests. Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy. Well being a high ranked USA official it's not her job to be hoping for the Ukrainian people to choose their next leader, so clearly there wasn't much of a chance that she would discuss that with a colleague. On the other hand, evaluating which candidate is better for American interests actually is her job. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On February 23 2014 11:50 mahrgell wrote: If you get it from the EU, they want your economy. Well, off course the EU will always offer the partnership, they have proposed all the time. Ya thats the point. In 1989 Ukraine was more industrialized than Poland. Today its as poor as Bolivia, and heading in the wrong direction. Of course painful reforms are necessary, all that maintaining a relationship with Russia does is delay that reform until Russia's corruption is so brutal that even being the Saudi Arabia of Europe wont save them and then the economic decline in Ukraine will be even more painful. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On February 23 2014 11:35 Greem wrote: I'm sorry for Zeo, and i don't understand why he keeps writing here, under such heavy attacks and ever insults. As i said this thread is too one sided, "alien" opinions got critized and crusified. I telling not because i support him or dont, some things i agree some dont, as in other posters responses, but its just plain example on how people who unable to take a different view, group up against 1 man. Pathetic for TL users i would say. No one is forcing him to post photoshops of Hitler on the protesters banners and claim that what is currently happening in Ukraine is a Nazi Plot to exterminate Eastern Ukrainians. You can have a reasonable position that sees Timoshenko is as bad as Yanukovich, in terms of actual reforms carried out if not in outright brutality, and that in the short term the Russian deal is much better than the EU, which it is if you ignore the whole concept that EU ascension reforms even without joining EU are an economically positive change. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 23 2014 12:00 Sub40APM wrote: Ukraine is independent, dont be stupid. All that tearing down a statute that no one had a problem with for 23 years does is aggravate and scare Ukrainians. Tearing down his statute makes about as much sense as tearing down the statues to the Kings -- they were oppressors of the common Ukrainians too but also part of Ukrainian history. To try to pretend otherwise is just dumb. Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, we got basically none, maybe just a few exceptions. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On February 23 2014 12:08 Sub40APM wrote: No one is forcing him to post photoshops of Hitler on the protesters banners and claim that what is currently happening in Ukraine is a Nazi Plot to exterminate Eastern Ukrainians. You can have a reasonable position that sees Timoshenko is as bad as Yanukovich, in terms of actual reforms carried out if not in outright brutality, and that in the short term the Russian deal is much better than the EU, which it is if you ignore the whole concept that EU ascension reforms even without joining EU are an economically positive change. No one should be shedding tears for Zeo. He has been a nonstop propagandist in this thread, adopting positions that are patently absurd. Hell, he doesn't even bother supporting his ridiculous assertions of fact with anything resembling a legitimate source. I find his posts to be amusing, but I frankly am surprised that he is being allowed to post stuff like he has. | ||
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Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On February 23 2014 12:15 Cheerio wrote: Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that. Ya and for 23 years of independence it didnt bother anyone. All that taking down statutes now does is feed into anti-Ukrainian propaganda, it costs valuable political capital and does nothing. And you have plenty of statutes of various pre-Russian kings or attamans around Ukraine. All those people were exploiters of peasants, yet people accept that its part of Ukrainian history. So is being part of Russian Empire and then Communism. Just like in Zakarpatia where I am from there is a statute of Hungarians, but you dont see anyone tearming them down because they symbols of Hungarian imperialism. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 23 2014 07:40 zeo wrote: Or if Lavrov went to Mexico and started handing out hamburgers Provocateurs shown the way out of Crimea today: so anti-Maidan extrimists respond with violence towards a peaceful local Euromaidan. Nothing new. | ||
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Greem
730 Posts
On February 23 2014 12:15 Cheerio wrote: Clearly it's not about the current independence, it's about the independence taken away 100 years ago by Lenin. And we don't have many statues to the Russian tsars standing in the central streets of major cities, I can tell you that. Your fanatism is unbelievable. You just pick a date and start your hatred from there, or how does your mind work ? Its like going back in time to Kievan Rus or something to looking for reasons and ideas. Sadly i don't know much history, but this is what i found happened around 100 years, ago as you pointed Lenin took your independence, like its any relevant , it has no meaning whatsoever, and do not help or damage anything at all, its past, it quielty resides back there. So anyway here is a piece, maybe in some other reality a guy with nick Cheerio blames Polish,or Germans for taking his independence. First World War, the revolutions and aftermath "When World War I and series of revolutions across the Europe including the October Revolution in Russia shattered many existing empires such as the Austrian and Russian ones, while people of Ukraine were caught in the middle. Between 1917 and 1919, several separate Ukrainian republics manifested independence, the anarchist Free Territory, the Ukrainian People's Republic, the West Ukrainian People's Republic, and numerous Bolshevik revkoms. As the area of Ukraine fell into warfare and anarchy, it was also fought over by German and Austrian forces, the Red Army of Bolshevik Russia, the White Forces of General Denikin, the Polish Army, anarchists led by Nestor Makhno. Kiev itself was occupied by many different armies. The city was captured by the Bolsheviks on 9 February 1918, by the Germans on 2 March 1918, by the Bolsheviks a second time on 5 February 1919, by the White Army on 31 August 1919, by Bolsheviks for a third time on 15 December 1919, by the Polish Army on 6 May 1920, and finally by the Bolsheviks for the fourth time on 12 June 1920." I posted this for no reason, just to shop how irelevant it is. Got nothing to do with todays Ukraine. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On February 23 2014 07:56 zeo wrote: I'm sure they are thinking about all the things you just said on the bus back to Lviv. the first young man speaking in the video has very strong accent that is neither Ukrainian nor Russian, he is either Crimean Tatar or from the Caucasus, the former most likely since they are in Crimea and they are very well-known to be pro-Euromaidan. | ||
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