The obvious question is: where would the president stay if he returned to the capital? What then of the prospect of a split between pro-Russian areas such as Crimea and the rest of Ukraine?
The congress in Kharkiv is clearly rejecting the idea of separation. One of the speakers clearly condemned Crimean deputies for raising the very prospect of a split?
Sorry this isn't about imperialist Westerners imposing their views on you, it's about imperialist Russians imposing their views on your country and you being just fine with it, but if the West voices an opinion, Katie bar the door shit just got real that is just so wrong. Now, Putin running your country with strings running right into Yanukovych's back, that's fine, but Westerners wanting the Ukraine to operate on the rule of law (no political prisoners, you don't have to bribe someone to actually get healthcare or other government assistance, etc.), now that is just an unacceptable imposition of their condescending Western worldview.
Do you really believe that? lol... I'm all for western Imperialism (well... it's to my own advantage), but let's not pretend the west being some glorious angels descending from heaven to save the poor Ukrainian souls devoured by the devil of Putin. The only difference between western Imperialism and russian Imperialism to me is, that one is on my side, the other is not.
Do you really believe that? lol... No one needs to pretend the ridiculous scenario you're describing needs paid attention because no one has said that the situation can be neatly described as glorious EU angels saving poor Ukrainian souls from the devil of Putin. Last I checked, those EU angels stood on the sidelines most of the time while the poor Ukrainian souls saved themselves.
Your view on the differences between Western and Russian "imperialism" is grossly naive and ignorant.
How, exactly, is that? In November, the revolution began when President Yanukovych refused to sign an integration deal with the E.U., choosing instead to pursue closer ties with Moscow. Did Kubiv mean that Yanukovych must make another U-turn and take the E.U. deal? “No,” he said. “That’s not enough.” The revolutionaries need to see more than that. They want concrete progress toward the creation of a society with rule of law, no corruption, upward mobility based on merit rather than connections, freedom of the press — all of the values they associate with Europe. “We want all of Ukraine to have the values that we have built here on the Maidan,” Kubiv said.
That is the Western imperialism the EU is trying to impose and that is the Western imperialism you say is no better than Russian imperialism - where does the EU's imperialism include kidnapping and torturing protesters, snipers shooting into crowds, gangs of pro-government hooligans jumping and beating people on the street, other gangs of hooligans (mostly anti-gays) being used by the police as a quasi-official shock force (like the homophobic gangs used by the Russian police to beat up gay rights protesters or just gays in general, they tell the gangs where the gays are then step aside and watch them beat up the gays) journalists being assaulted and murdered, etc., all things that have been done in both the Ukraine and Russia by the pro-Russians or the Russians themselves?
The LGBT and feminist activists left Maiden a long time ago because they were attacked by their fellow 'protesters'. You seem to think any mention of the rioters glorifying mass murderers and fascists is a Russian narrative, yet you easily fall in to the generic 'Russia hates gays like its the only problem in the world' storyline again and again, like it somehow legitimizes the extremists running Kiev right now.
Really? Because I looked and couldn't find anything about the LGBT and feminists activists leaving Maidan because they were attacked by far right protesters. What I have managed to find are news reports about many of the non far-right leaving Maidan after the police attack and the far right staying behind to fight the police and keep the square. Those other (far more numerous) non far right protesters have come back to the Maidan now.
Here is a story from 3 days ago about feminists running a field hospital for the wounded in the Maidan, did they leave sometime in the past 3 days? LGBT activists running a dispatch center for emergency medical response. Did they leave too in the last three days? I doubt it, but if they did, how is that "a long time ago"? This is also from the New York Review of Books piece I linked earlier:
The protesters represent every group of Ukrainian citizens: Russian speakers and Ukrainian speakers (although most Ukrainians are bilingual), people from the cities and the countryside, people from all regions of the country, members of all political parties, the young and the old, Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Every major Christian denomination is represented by believers and most of them by clergy. The Crimean Tatars march in impressive numbers, and Jewish leaders have made a point of supporting the movement. The diversity of the Maidan is impressive: the group that monitors hospitals so that the regime cannot kidnap the wounded is run by young feminists. An important hotline that protesters call when they need help is staffed by LGBT activists.
Russian government either hates gays or is happy to use widespread homophobia to gin up cheap populist support for itself, undeniable fact.
Now we have you trying to say the Maidan is in the control of homophobes and fascists with no proof of it, you provide none, I tried to find some through Google (searching for "LGBT activists leave maidan" and "feminists leave maidan" and could not. There is no evidence that the far right runs Kiev right now. They ran the Maidan for one day (Thursday) and fought back against the police so fiercely that it was almost certainly Thursday's fighting and the responses to it more than anything else that made Yanukovych flee.
There is no evidence that LGBT or feminist activists have been forced to flee the Maidan by the far right.
So in the end it seems like you're just posting stuff up that you watched or read or heard from Russian media and you even try to pre-emptively discredit that criticism with your dismissive remark about Russian narratives operating. It is valuable to see the ham-handed Russian attempts at propaganda aimed at the West, it might work when you have enough useful idiots who don't like America and America is your propaganda target, but the Ukraine is not the United States. That shit ain't working. So just because most of us don't consume Russian media because it's so blatantly propagandistic and bigoted and stupid, keep on informing us as to what lines Putin is trotting out today. It doesn't mean anyone's gonna believe that crap. It's so transparent and inept, Westerners generally very much dislike fascists and people who hate gays (like us), so call the protesters violent fascists and homophobes! Surely the West will gobble this up and turn against them.
The place of the far right in the post-Yanukovych political hierarchy remains to be determined, but it is not as powerful as the far right in countries like France. It is right to be concerned that the far right will do bad things or get too much influence or both. But this about how the Nazis are running the show is just garbage and everyone knows that. The Nazi element in the Ukrainian far right is not large or dominant. It's dominated by Ukrainian nationalists most of whom are racist but they are not actually Nazis.
Of course the rioters at Maidan would blame the government for any violence committed, its like you don't even know how propaganda works. Blame everything on the other side.
Moreover, Svoboda expresses extreme hostility towards homosexuals – party members once attacked and sprayed tear gas at the participants of a gay rights rally in the capital Kiev.
Ukraine is a divided state and the elites from both sides have proven to be totally corrupt and inept at governing. What is clear is that this has nothing to do with democracy. It's simply more cold-war style jockeying. It's telling when Victoria Nuland is not hoping for the Ukrainian people to choose their next leader, instead she's evaluating which candidate is better for American interests. Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy.
Also, Yanukovych was not as pro-Russian as much of the media's making him out to be (everything's black and white in CNN-land), and thus this is as much an opportunity for Russia as it is for Germany and the U.S.
I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: Ukraine is a divided state and the elites from both sides have proven to be totally corrupt and inept at governing. What is clear is that this has nothing to do with democracy. It's simply more cold-war style jockeying. It's telling when Victoria Nuland is not hoping for the Ukrainian people to choose their next leader, instead she's evaluating which candidate is better for American interests. Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy.
Also, Yanukovych was not as pro-Russian as much of the media's making him out to be (everything's black and white in CNN-land), and thus this is as much an opportunity for Russia as it is for Germany and the U.S.
I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
Or if Lavrov went to Mexico and started handing out hamburgers
DeepElemBlues is too funny. Blames everyone that isnt taking his point of view being influenced by propaganda but doesnt seem to notice he is biased as hell. I think the aftermath is important here and i bet my ass this will cause big troubles for the ukraine, before they worked all together because they ll had the same interests but once this is done every party involved will try to get as much out of it as possible.
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
If they were violet they would be subdues with non violent method's and no one would complain about it, other then the protesters probably.
Lets not forget the situations that made the protest go the way it did.
There were peaceful protests. They were made illegal. Police tried to remove the now illegal protests. Protesters fought back. Police turn to guns. Some Protests turn to guns.
If the protests weren't declared illegal its likely that this would have never turned violent in the first place.
Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy.
Not sure why those two are mutually exclusive, democracy is an interest for the US. Other than China, look at US trade relations with democracies and non-democracies. The democracies are much richer and make us richer by our trade with them than the trade with the non-democracies does. Other than for idealistic reasons the US - and the rest of the West too - views democracies as better to trade with. There's less nonsense (bribes and such) to deal with and not everybody is out to cheat you. Those are really huge benefits.
I seem to recall a lot of people thinking they should have some kind of say in US domestic politics because the US is so powerful and they really did not like who was president then. All countries who fully participate in the globalized world have an interest in the political stability and quality of politics in other countries. That's just the way it is and how it has been since forever, well before globalization, the geographic scope was just smaller in the past.
I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
Since that isn't what happened we don't need to go into fantasyland about it. In the real world, if "foreign supported" protesters were demanding Obama resign and the police attacked them - what really happened - and they fought back and won and then the police started shooting them and the National Mall was in flames, Obama - or any US president - wouldn't get the chance to resign and flee somewhere to try to carve out part of the country for him (or her!) to rule. The president would be removed from office by the military and whoever was in line would be president until the next election. Americans wouldn't accept APCs being driven into crowds at 25-30 mph and snipers shooting people by the score from the rooftops. Ukrainians had the chance to make that choice and they did not accept it.
Of course the rioters at Maidan would blame the government for any violence committed, its like you don't even know how propaganda works. Blame everything on the other side.
There's lots of people there who aren't rioters at the Maidan and they're saying the same things that the rioters at the Maidan are. You also say rioters because rioters are bad, they were rioting against their government brutalizing and trying to kill them, yay rioters!
Moreover, Svoboda expresses extreme hostility towards homosexuals – party members once attacked and sprayed tear gas at the participants of a gay rights rally in the capital Kiev.
No one ever said they were and again sorry but the Nazis aren't running Kiev, Svoboda is not in charge of the Maidan square or the Maidan movement, this ham-handed BS betrays a deep lack of understanding about Westerners. We aren't going to forsake a movement that is overall for freedom because a minority element that does not have the power to take control is distasteful to us.
DeepElemBlues is too funny. Blames everyone that isnt taking his point of view being influenced by propaganda but doesnt seem to notice he is biased as hell. I think the aftermath is important here and i bet my ass this will cause big troubles for the ukraine, before they worked all together because they ll had the same interests but once this is done every party involved will try to get as much out of it as possible.
Reality is "biased," you guys lost, it's fast approaching time where you're going to be left arguing about the past while the present of the Ukraine marches on with you squabbling over the ash heap of history.
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: Ukraine is a divided state and the elites from both sides have proven to be totally corrupt and inept at governing. What is clear is that this has nothing to do with democracy. It's simply more cold-war style jockeying. It's telling when Victoria Nuland is not hoping for the Ukrainian people to choose their next leader, instead she's evaluating which candidate is better for American interests. Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy.
Also, Yanukovych was not as pro-Russian as much of the media's making him out to be (everything's black and white in CNN-land), and thus this is as much an opportunity for Russia as it is for Germany and the U.S.
I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
Or if Lavrov went to Mexico and started handing out hamburgers
Look at those Ukrainian fascists! Getting kicked in the face just like they've planned all along by people with Russian flags. I can see the genocide of the Russian people through that video so clearly but maybe you can photoshop hitler on some of the young guys getting kicked in the face for their fascist imperialist act of trying to speak in public.
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: Ukraine is a divided state and the elites from both sides have proven to be totally corrupt and inept at governing. What is clear is that this has nothing to do with democracy. It's simply more cold-war style jockeying. It's telling when Victoria Nuland is not hoping for the Ukrainian people to choose their next leader, instead she's evaluating which candidate is better for American interests. Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy.
Also, Yanukovych was not as pro-Russian as much of the media's making him out to be (everything's black and white in CNN-land), and thus this is as much an opportunity for Russia as it is for Germany and the U.S.
I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
Or if Lavrov went to Mexico and started handing out hamburgers
Look at those Ukrainian fascists! Getting kicked in the face just like they've planned all along by people with Russian flags. I can see the genocide of the Russian people through that video so clearly but maybe you can photoshop hitler on some of the young guys getting kicked in the face for their fascist imperialist act of trying to speak in public.
I'm sure they are thinking about all the things you just said on the bus back to Lviv.
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: Ukraine is a divided state and the elites from both sides have proven to be totally corrupt and inept at governing. What is clear is that this has nothing to do with democracy. It's simply more cold-war style jockeying. It's telling when Victoria Nuland is not hoping for the Ukrainian people to choose their next leader, instead she's evaluating which candidate is better for American interests. Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy.
Also, Yanukovych was not as pro-Russian as much of the media's making him out to be (everything's black and white in CNN-land), and thus this is as much an opportunity for Russia as it is for Germany and the U.S.
I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
Or if Lavrov went to Mexico and started handing out hamburgers
Look at those Ukrainian fascists! Getting kicked in the face just like they've planned all along by people with Russian flags. I can see the genocide of the Russian people through that video so clearly but maybe you can photoshop hitler on some of the young guys getting kicked in the face for their fascist imperialist act of trying to speak in public.
I'm sure they are thinking about all the things you just said on the bus back to Lviv.
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote:I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
The whole premise here is ridiculous, because of the stark societal differences relating to American institutions and the American population's faith in the government. Some foreign government could very easily pay a bunch of people to be a pain in the ass and try to start a movement, but it wouldn't gain any traction. The grievance isn't there.
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: Ukraine is a divided state and the elites from both sides have proven to be totally corrupt and inept at governing. What is clear is that this has nothing to do with democracy. It's simply more cold-war style jockeying. It's telling when Victoria Nuland is not hoping for the Ukrainian people to choose their next leader, instead she's evaluating which candidate is better for American interests. Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy.
Also, Yanukovych was not as pro-Russian as much of the media's making him out to be (everything's black and white in CNN-land), and thus this is as much an opportunity for Russia as it is for Germany and the U.S.
I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
Or if Lavrov went to Mexico and started handing out hamburgers
Look at those Ukrainian fascists! Getting kicked in the face just like they've planned all along by people with Russian flags. I can see the genocide of the Russian people through that video so clearly but maybe you can photoshop hitler on some of the young guys getting kicked in the face for their fascist imperialist act of trying to speak in public.
I'm sure they are thinking about all the things you just said on the bus back to Lviv.
If people from Lviv don't have a say in the Ukraine as a whole what right does Yanukovych have to try to get the Russian-speaking regions of the country to impose their say on the Ukraine as a whole or deny other Ukrainians their say on the Ukraine as a whole.
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: Ukraine is a divided state and the elites from both sides have proven to be totally corrupt and inept at governing. What is clear is that this has nothing to do with democracy. It's simply more cold-war style jockeying. It's telling when Victoria Nuland is not hoping for the Ukrainian people to choose their next leader, instead she's evaluating which candidate is better for American interests. Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy.
Also, Yanukovych was not as pro-Russian as much of the media's making him out to be (everything's black and white in CNN-land), and thus this is as much an opportunity for Russia as it is for Germany and the U.S.
I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
Or if Lavrov went to Mexico and started handing out hamburgers
Serbia is first who recognize east Ukraine and Krim !!! Fuck maydan !!!fuck nato and eu !!! fuck bitch yulia!!!
or are you this totally stable sounding person
Stefana Karinskaya23 minutes ago (edited)
Ukraine, Belarusia and Russia are in jeopardy, and it is up to us to save our lands. I've been there in Europe and I know... All America and the EU want is enslave the former Soviet Union folks, to make them work for chicken feed. I appeal to all Ukrainians, Belarusians and Russians who still believe they're being promised Wonderland and miracles in the decaying EU to wake up, to get real that the Pro-American Western noose gets steadily tightened round your neck. If you don't realise that, you'll have to suck the yankee's cock and wash the EU's shitty underwear and lick their stinking balls and pussies. Do you fucking want that? Start raking your head now before it's too late!
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: Ukraine is a divided state and the elites from both sides have proven to be totally corrupt and inept at governing. What is clear is that this has nothing to do with democracy. It's simply more cold-war style jockeying. It's telling when Victoria Nuland is not hoping for the Ukrainian people to choose their next leader, instead she's evaluating which candidate is better for American interests. Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy.
Also, Yanukovych was not as pro-Russian as much of the media's making him out to be (everything's black and white in CNN-land), and thus this is as much an opportunity for Russia as it is for Germany and the U.S.
I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
Or if Lavrov went to Mexico and started handing out hamburgers
Look at those Ukrainian fascists! Getting kicked in the face just like they've planned all along by people with Russian flags. I can see the genocide of the Russian people through that video so clearly but maybe you can photoshop hitler on some of the young guys getting kicked in the face for their fascist imperialist act of trying to speak in public.
I'm sure they are thinking about all the things you just said on the bus back to Lviv.
Maybe they are from Serbia instead.
Thats a long trip to make just to act like a dickhead in a foreign country. I think its like 300 euro's by train.
^ thats not me, lol at expecting to find people who arnt insane in a youtube comments section
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
If they were violet they would be subdues with non violent method's and no one would complain about it, other then the protesters probably.
Lets not forget the situations that made the protest go the way it did.
There were peaceful protests. They were made illegal. Police tried to remove the now illegal protests. Protesters fought back. Police turn to guns. Some Protests turn to guns.
If the protests weren't declared illegal its likely that this would have never turned violent in the first place.
Sorry but your chronology is just simplistic and inaccurate. A radical element of the protestors were being violent, including attacking and killing police officers long before these latest incidents.
"Reality is "biased," you guys lost, it's fast approaching time where you're going to be left arguing about the past while the present of the Ukraine marches on with you squabbling over the ash heap of history. "
What the fuck does this even mean? All i m saying is that you have a onesided view and critize others for also having one. You suck up the western propaganda like a cocktail and blame others for doing the exact same thing. It is just absurd.
Which is fine - it's what all nations do, just let's not pretend this is about fighting for democracy.
Not sure why those two are mutually exclusive, democracy is an interest for the US. Other than China, look at US trade relations with democracies and non-democracies. The democracies are much richer and make us richer by our trade with them than the trade with the non-democracies does. Other than for idealistic reasons the US - and the rest of the West too - views democracies as better to trade with. There's less nonsense (bribes and such) to deal with and not everybody is out to cheat you. Those are really huge benefits.
I seem to recall a lot of people thinking they should have some kind of say in US domestic politics because the US is so powerful and they really did not like who was president then. All countries who fully participate in the globalized world have an interest in the political stability and quality of politics in other countries. That's just the way it is and how it has been since forever, well before globalization, the geographic scope was just smaller in the past.
I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
Since that isn't what happened we don't need to go into fantasyland about it. In the real world, if "foreign supported" protesters were demanding Obama resign and the police attacked them - what really happened - and they fought back and won and then the police started shooting them and the National Mall was in flames, Obama - or any US president - wouldn't get the chance to resign and flee somewhere to try to carve out part of the country for him (or her!) to rule. The president would be removed from office by the military and whoever was in line would be president until the next election. Americans wouldn't accept APCs being driven into crowds at 25-30 mph and snipers shooting people by the score from the rooftops. Ukrainians had the chance to make that choice and they did not accept it.
Of course the rioters at Maidan would blame the government for any violence committed, its like you don't even know how propaganda works. Blame everything on the other side.
There's lots of people there who aren't rioters at the Maidan and they're saying the same things that the rioters at the Maidan are. You also say rioters because rioters are bad, they were rioting against their government brutalizing and trying to kill them, yay rioters!
Moreover, Svoboda expresses extreme hostility towards homosexuals – party members once attacked and sprayed tear gas at the participants of a gay rights rally in the capital Kiev.
No one ever said they were and again sorry but the Nazis aren't running Kiev, Svoboda is not in charge of the Maidan square or the Maidan movement, this ham-handed BS betrays a deep lack of understanding about Westerners. We aren't going to forsake a movement that is overall for freedom because a minority element that does not have the power to take control is distasteful to us.
DeepElemBlues is too funny. Blames everyone that isnt taking his point of view being influenced by propaganda but doesnt seem to notice he is biased as hell. I think the aftermath is important here and i bet my ass this will cause big troubles for the ukraine, before they worked all together because they ll had the same interests but once this is done every party involved will try to get as much out of it as possible.
Reality is "biased," you guys lost, it's fast approaching time where you're going to be left arguing about the past while the present of the Ukraine marches on with you squabbling over the ash heap of history.
If you're trying to argue that the overriding focus of the American government is not American interests first and foremost, then you're hopelessly naive.
Funny, nobody in the State Department is pushing for democracy in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. America was just fine with the government crushing pro-democracy protestors in Bahrain. Democratically elected leader in Egypt being deposed in a military coup? That's just dandy for the U.S., so long as their interests are being served. Hamas gets elected in Gaza? Well, let's just not recognize that particular election. Military coup in Pakistan? Who cares as long as he'll control the nukes and feed us intelligence.
It seems like American foreign policy, based on their actions, has deemed that democracy is overrated.
On February 23 2014 07:36 BuddhaMonk wrote: I wonder what would happen in Washington if violent foreign supported protesters were attacking police and demanding Obama resign?
If they were violet they would be subdues with non violent method's and no one would complain about it, other then the protesters probably.
Lets not forget the situations that made the protest go the way it did.
There were peaceful protests. They were made illegal. Police tried to remove the now illegal protests. Protesters fought back. Police turn to guns. Some Protests turn to guns.
If the protests weren't declared illegal its likely that this would have never turned violent in the first place.
Sorry but your chronology is just simplistic and inaccurate. A radical element of the protestors were being violent, including attacking and killing police officers long before these latest incidents.
I am sure you have a nice photoshop of it too. Those Nazi worshipers and their obsession with joining the 4th Reich that is the EU where all minorities are exterminated.
EPT
