EPTSadly, this will cause a lot of issues because the parts of ukraine that are historically closer to Russia might also want to join Russia or improve their ties leading to more internal conflict than anything else.
Ukraine Crisis - Page 224
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
Sadly, this will cause a lot of issues because the parts of ukraine that are historically closer to Russia might also want to join Russia or improve their ties leading to more internal conflict than anything else. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6284 Posts
On March 06 2014 23:25 -Archangel- wrote: Actually it is not the same. Croatia was a federal republic as part of Yugoslavia (not to mention Croatia has a 1000 year history before being part of Yugoslavia). It is same as SSSR falling apart and Russia going after all the members. It would be same as Russia going after whole of Ukraine and not just Crimea. And Yugoslavia didn't attack us to get us back to Yugoslavia, and they didn't try to occupy everything but only parts that had a bigger Serbian presence. They used the same excuse as Russia is using for Crimea. According to the constitution of Yugoslavia (from the 1970's and still in effect during the 90's) for Croatia to become independent both the constitutional people's from the YR of Croatia (Serb's and Croat's) would have to agree to split from Yugoslavia. Since only the Croatian part of the population wanted to break off it was a violation of the constitution, while Yugoslavia was arguing at the UN that Croatia or Bosnia breaking off would be illegal Germany and the Vatican had already recognized Croatia as an independent state and that's when everything went downhill. The Serbian population of Croatia said 'well if you can illegally break off from us, we can illegally break off from you'. Of course the insane amount of nationalism and the old 'they will destroy us if we don't do something' from both sides lead to what happened next. I would say this is similar to Yugoslavia in the sense that when the communists split up the country so it could be ruled easier they didn't take into account which people were living where, and what would happen when the country fell apart. In short, communists carving up countries is the cause of all of this. | ||
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
On March 06 2014 23:25 -Archangel- wrote: Actually it is not the same. Croatia was a federal republic as part of Yugoslavia (not to mention Croatia has a 1000 year history before being part of Yugoslavia). It is same as SSSR falling apart and Russia going after all the members. It would be same as Russia going after whole of Ukraine and not just Crimea. And Yugoslavia didn't attack us to get us back to Yugoslavia, and they didn't try to occupy everything but only parts that had a bigger Serbian presence. They used the same excuse as Russia is using for Crimea. Only thing is it was not an excuse it was reality,something no croat will never admit,yet we keep seeing fascist in croatia (ustase) keep trying to expel what little Serbs are left there even now 20 years after the war and even when croatia is in EU. Hah one more reason not to trust EU they let croatia join. Just to be clear im not saying croats are to blame for everything in that war,because both sides were responsible,just like this shit in Ukraine. Sorry to all for this off topic but i really couldnt help myself not to answer on this. I dont want this to became croat-serbian quarrel on the internet for the millionth time so i will shut up about it after this post. | ||
zatic
Zurich15328 Posts
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Schmobutzen
Germany284 Posts
http://allegralaboratory.net/which-constitution-what-order-constitutional-politics-in-ukraine/ | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 06 2014 23:51 Liman wrote: Only thing is it was not an excuse it was reality,something no croat will never admit,yet we keep seeing fascist in croatia (ustase) keep trying to expel what little Serbs are left there even now 20 years after the war and even when croatia is in EU. Hah one more reason not to trust EU they let croatia join. Just to be clear im not saying croats are to blame for everything in that war,because both sides were responsible,just like this shit in Ukraine. Sorry to all for this off topic but i really couldnt help myself not to answer on this. I dont want this to became croat-serbian quarrel on the internet for the millionth time so i will shut up about it after this post. I don't know what kind of information your TV has been feeding you but nobody is hunting down Serbs in Croatia. While in the past there were problems in this sense, it was never in the scope that was told as propaganda on your TV and it was not state organized. It was same kind of propaganda by Milosevic that Putin is doing today by claiming Ukranian nationalists are Nazi. Today at worst we have a loud group of people that don't want to have double language in parts of Croatia that were hit the most by Yugoslavia attacks and I don't agree with those people but I can understand that while they are alive they will not forget or forgive what happened. Also there is a new political group in Croatia that is trying to use this stupid bullshit to gain political power. And lol at trying to equalize blame. Croatia didn't fire a single bullet at Serbian territory or step on Serbian soil and sure as hell didn't level a whole city in Serbia to almost nothing (like Serbia did to Vukovar). Learn the history before you come here and talk bullshit, you sound like your friend Putin. Germany had a catharsis after all the shit they did in WW2 and it made them into a economic and cultural superpower they are today, you should learn from them. If you want to blame Croatia for something, blame us for our role in whole Bosnia and Herzegovina fuckup. Oh and I find it sooo funny Serbs here being internet warriors for Russia when Russia is doing what USA did to you with Kosovo (although that was part Milosevic fault for being a war mongering human rights breaking idiot). EDIT: I will not longer derail. | ||
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
On March 06 2014 23:45 ZeromuS wrote: seems to be coming to an end with the original assumption happening - crimea leaving ukraine and joining russia. Sadly, this will cause a lot of issues because the parts of ukraine that are historically closer to Russia might also want to join Russia or improve their ties leading to more internal conflict than anything else. Well that problem was created by Communist regime which made borders of soviet republic without considering ethnicity of people living in different areas.Borders were created for functionality.They were all Soviets,ethnicity didnt matter. Its basically same thing that made problems in the middle-east and Yugoslavia. Most of Soviet republics never before had today's borders,hell some of them didnt exist at all before USSR. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On March 06 2014 23:25 -Archangel- wrote: Actually it is not the same. Croatia was a federal republic as part of Yugoslavia (not to mention Croatia has a 1000 year history before being part of Yugoslavia). It is same as SSSR falling apart and Russia going after all the members. It would be same as Russia going after whole of Ukraine and not just Crimea. And Yugoslavia didn't attack us to get us back to Yugoslavia, and they didn't try to occupy everything but only parts that had a bigger Serbian presence. They used the same excuse as Russia is using for Crimea. As I said I was rather sarcastic. I was just painting the situation in that way to ridicule the holy-territorial-integrity argument. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
Will everyone blame Russia after Donetsk and Kharkiv will have their referendums? Ofc. It's just sad to see because it seems like 95% of TL think that a) Russia have totalitarism, dictator and other stuff; b) Russia is fucking agressor, when we hadn't declared a war for ages and throughout history we were almost everytime defending instead of offending anyone; Even in fucking 2008 West was claiming that we declared war to Georgia when OSCE's delegation ran from Tskhinvali 3 hours before Georgian army started to bomb it. Ffs. Sorry dudes, didn't want to offend anyone. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On March 07 2014 00:42 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Can someone at least tell me, why do almost everyone blame Russia because Crimea wants to be part of Russia so hard that they did even move referendum on same date as 30stm will give concert in Moscow? Will everyone blame Russia after Donetsk and Kharkiv will have their referendums? Ofc. It's just sad to see because it seems like 95% of TL think that a) Russia have totalitarism, dictator and other stuff; b) Russia is fucking agressor, when we hadn't declared a war for ages and throughout history we were almost everytime defending instead of offending anyone; Even in fucking 2008 West was claiming that we declared war to Georgia when OSCE's delegation ran from Tskhinvali 3 hours before Georgian army started to bomb it. Ffs. Sorry dudes, didn't want to offend anyone. Well Russia went into Crimea for no good reason and spreads a lot of disinformation about ukraine and now crimea is leaving ukraine AFTER russia enters it. If Crimea had a referendum and left ukraine and russia never entered it I dont think anyone would actually care. Its really just the disinformation of Russia this time and their entering Ukraine for reasons beyond simply protecting their port on the black sea from crazy people is the problem. If anything the referendum should be run by an independent party, i dont want to see either ukraine or russia run a referendum for an area to stay in one country or join the other, as its bound to be questionable in results when there is army from one country in another country. I don't think Russia is totalitarian but in the ukraine they were the aggressor. I don't see how they could be seen as defending anything. People weren't dying in the streets of Crimea and the army from a foreign nation didn't need to enter it to handle any sort of serious situation. If their ports were being destroyed by rioters then sure go defend your ports but nothing was happening in Crimea to require a bunch of Russian army to enter it. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21685 Posts
On March 07 2014 00:42 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Can someone at least tell me, why do almost everyone blame Russia because Crimea wants to be part of Russia so hard that they did even move referendum on same date as 30stm will give concert in Moscow? Will everyone blame Russia after Donetsk and Kharkiv will have their referendums? Ofc. It's just sad to see because it seems like 95% of TL think that a) Russia have totalitarism, dictator and other stuff; b) Russia is fucking agressor, when we hadn't declared a war for ages and throughout history we were almost everytime defending instead of offending anyone; Even in fucking 2008 West was claiming that we declared war to Georgia when OSCE's delegation ran from Tskhinvali 3 hours before Georgian army started to bomb it. Ffs. Sorry dudes, didn't want to offend anyone. Why do people bitch? Because of how this went If Crimea had a referendum and the vast majority preferred independence and Ukraine granted it then most if not all complaining would be gone. Instead we have a country invade another on false pretenses, attempt to provoke conflict to validate there presence and then have the local government declare themselves part of the invaders country without a referendum or even any legal ability to do so in the first place. That is why people bitch. If Russia kept its troops at home and Crimea had a referendum no one would be complaining. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On March 07 2014 00:56 Gorsameth wrote: Why do people bitch? Because of how this went If Crimea had a referendum and the vast majority preferred independence and Ukraine granted it then most if not all complaining would be gone. Instead we have a country invade another on false pretenses, attempt to provoke conflict to validate there presence and then have the local government declare themselves part of the invaders country without a referendum or even any legal ability to do so in the first place. That is why people bitch. If Russia kept its troops at home and Crimea had a referendum no one would be complaining. No, you don't understand, they aren't a part of russia yet, all those maps on TV with Crimea as part of Russia, thats not true, no Crimea didn't say they are part of Russia, the Russians are there to defend the the people from crazy militia and crimea will have a referendum later and no, the Ukrainian army isn't being told to surrender because they are in Russia now, thats simply not happening. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 07 2014 00:53 ZeromuS wrote: Well Russia went into Crimea for no good reason and spreads a lot of disinformation about ukraine and now crimea is leaving ukraine AFTER russia enters it. If Crimea had a referendum and left ukraine and russia never entered it I dont think anyone would actually care. Its really just the disinformation of Russia this time and their entering Ukraine for reasons beyond simply protecting their port on the black sea from crazy people is the problem. If anything the referendum should be run by an independent party, i dont want to see either ukraine or russia run a referendum for an area to stay in one country or join the other, as its bound to be questionable in results when there is army from one country in another country. I don't think Russia is totalitarian but in the ukraine they were the aggressor. I don't see how they could be seen as defending anything. People weren't dying in the streets of Crimea and the army from a foreign nation didn't need to enter it to handle any sort of serious situation. If their ports were being destroyed by rioters then sure go defend your ports but nothing was happening in Crimea to require a bunch of Russian army to enter it. Russia was in Crimea for ages, i dunno how can you say that we did intervene it. Don't forget, Russia can have 25000 troops there legally and there are still 16000 like always. And i also don't know why only Russians condisered as spreading a lot of disinformation and noone speaks about Western countries who lie no less. Probably it's just me, because i have tons of friends in Ukraine and i don't watch TV lol. It's classic information war, i dunno how can you blame any country there to be honest. Will say one more thing. (no, nothing about 1954 and Khrushchev) A lot of people here in Moscow hope that Crimea just can be independent republic without being part of Russia. Like, let's say, Taiwan or Hongkong or even Macau. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
On March 07 2014 00:42 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Can someone at least tell me, why do almost everyone blame Russia because Crimea wants to be part of Russia so hard that they did even move referendum on same date as 30stm will give concert in Moscow? Will everyone blame Russia after Donetsk and Kharkiv will have their referendums? Ofc. It's just sad to see because it seems like 95% of TL think that a) Russia have totalitarism, dictator and other stuff; b) Russia is fucking agressor, when we hadn't declared a war for ages and throughout history we were almost everytime defending instead of offending anyone; Even in fucking 2008 West was claiming that we declared war to Georgia when OSCE's delegation ran from Tskhinvali 3 hours before Georgian army started to bomb it. Ffs. Sorry dudes, didn't want to offend anyone. Because they walked in there with large amount of heavily armed troops, under the false pretence of protection against facists (who do not exist) and violence against russians in crimea (which did not happen). Now that they have everyone at gunpoint suddenly ukrainian soldiers are outlaws. If crimea wanted independence they should have just held the referendum and follow things though from there. Maybe eventually join russia. Now they have no choice and russia just claimed them. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 07 2014 01:02 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Because they walked in there with large amount of heavily armed troops, under the false pretence of protection against facists (who do not exist) and violence against russians in crimea (which did not happen). Now that they have everyone at gunpoint suddenly ukrainian soldiers are outlaws. If crimea wanted independence they should have just held the referendum and follow things though from there. Maybe eventually join russia. Now they have no choice and russia just claimed them. LOL You seriously think that they have no choice and Russia just claimed them? I start to realise why do people hate us now. And once again. Those troops were there for years lol. Almost noone was moved from Russian side. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On March 07 2014 01:01 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: Russia was in Crimea for ages, i dunno how can you say that we did intervene it. Don't forget, Russia can have 25000 troops there legally and there are still 16000 like always. And i also don't know why only Russians condisered as spreading a lot of disinformation and noone speaks about Western countries who lie no less. Probably it's just me, because i have tons of friends in Ukraine and i don't watch TV lol. It's classic information war, i dunno how can you blame any country there to be honest. Will say one more thing. (no, nothing about 1954 and Khrushchev) A lot of people here in Moscow hope that Crimea just can be independent republic without being part of Russia. Like, let's say, Taiwan or Hongkong or even Macau. they can have that many troops with Ukrainian approval AND I believe, only in designated areas. Not sprinkled a little all over town, blockading Ukrainian naval ships, and military installations all without the Ukraine government's consent. Conveniently saying you don't accept the current government as legitimate and the prior president being nowhere to be seen but "approving" it isn't really all that convincing either. If the troops were limited to their military bases, weren't interfering with Ukrainian military then I would say sure its ok to have that many people there. But otherwise, no, I'm sorry, Russia's forces in Crimea are there in opposition to their existing agreements. If Crimea and Ukraine were in a full blown civil war like Syria then sure, Russia, go defend Crimea. But they werent so their reasoning for entrance was weak at best. On March 07 2014 01:07 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: LOL You seriously think that they have no choice and Russia just claimed them? I start to realise why do people hate us now. And once again. Those troops were there for years lol. Almost noone was moved from Russian side. Three years? So when the helicopters flew people in and the ships came to port and blockade'd the seaport, where were they before last week? Everyone on vacation for national Russian holidays for I don't even know how long? Please ... | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On March 07 2014 01:07 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: LOL You seriously think that they have no choice and Russia just claimed them? I start to realise why do people hate us now. And once again. Those troops were there for years lol. Almost noone was moved from Russian side. If you want to know how a legitimate separation process is held, look towards Scotland. Crimeans do not have a choice, no. And it's hilarious (and sad) that you think so. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21685 Posts
On March 07 2014 01:07 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote: LOL You seriously think that they have no choice and Russia just claimed them? I start to realise why do people hate us now. And once again. Those troops were there for years lol. Almost noone was moved from Russian side. As has been said time and time again if all those troops were inside there base just watching this wouldn't be a big deal. But there out in the streets blockading airports, sea ports. surrounding Ukrainian military bases. And do you really think people will assume any action made to join Russia now is made out of there own free will or because they are being occupied and blockades by an army. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 07 2014 01:10 HellRoxYa wrote: If you want to know how a legitimate separation process is held, look towards Scotland. Crimeans do not have a choice, no. And it's hilarious (and sad) that you think so. Donetsk, who's going to have referendum soon as well don't have choice either, i guess? On March 07 2014 01:12 Gorsameth wrote: As has been said time and time again if all those troops were inside there base just watching this wouldn't be a big deal. But there out in the streets blockading airports, sea ports. surrounding Ukrainian military bases. And do you really think people will assume any action made to join Russia now is made out of there own free will or because they are being occupied and blockades by an army. Crimea has only one airport, in Simferopol' afaik. And it wasn't working for 1 day, i guess? Other time it works as stable as always. On March 07 2014 01:09 ZeromuS wrote: Three years? So when the helicopters flew people in and the ships came to port and blockade'd the seaport, where were they before last week? Everyone on vacation for national Russian holidays for I don't even know how long? Please ... We don't have national holidays, at least now, sorry :D And i dunno where did you get number 3 as well, but ok. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
Yanukovych was not moved to restore the 2004 constitution because he was convinced of its superior political merits, but because of the contingencies of the moment. In the same vein, had the Crimeans remained demure and recognised the new authority in Kiev, they would have never been granted the right to a referendum when the dust was settled, on the pretext that such a referendum would be unconstitutional. That argument would have in turn been backed by all the material and moral forces of Western states and media. By seizing power prior to affirming legitimacy, the goalposts are automatically shifted in their favour, and the moment is exploited because the crisis has opened a chasm of chaos where creative legal reasoning can seize the day and triumph, if exerted with sufficient support and vigour. If you want to go the Neville Chamberlain route of "all changes are possible as long as they are implemented without force", then you hammer out an agreement guaranteed by all parties. This has not been undertaken because a referendum of full self-determination has never been the position of any of the interested parties; neither of the provisional government, nor of the Western Powers, nor, as of yet, the Russian government. The only people who have been involved in pushing it through are the Crimeans. | ||
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