EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 223
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likeasu
Russian Federation88 Posts
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On March 06 2014 22:21 likeasu wrote: Our army is like Schrödinger`s Cat. How do you cant understood this simple thing guys?!?!?!??! ahahah LOL... that is probably the best statement regarding the 'we are there but not' situation, I have read in the whole time :D | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3164 Posts
On March 06 2014 22:21 likeasu wrote: Our army is like Schrödinger`s Cat. How do you cant understood this simple thing guys?!?!?!??! ahahah Well u got to be proud by ur aircraft carrier destroyer, unfotunatly, with ur targeting system, which is basicly not existing, it's pretty hard to utilize it :/ | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
They are offered to join the Russian Army and get the Russian citizenship, or a secured retreat back to Ukraine. source: Spiegel.de, quoting vice premier of the crimean government Temirgaliew edit: confirmed by the guardian as well Btw: since when do regional governments have the power to offer citizenships of the country, they just joined few hours ago? | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-crimea-part-of-russia-local-parliament-declares | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21914 Posts
On March 06 2014 22:38 mahrgell wrote: The crimean government demands the full retreat or surrender of all occupying troops. (They are referring to the Ukrainian ones, as they consider themselves Russian now) They are offered to join the Russian Army and get the Russian citizenship, or a secured retreat back to Ukraine. source: Spiegel.de, quoting vice premier of the crimean government Temirgaliew edit: confirmed by the guardian as well Btw: since when do regional governments have the power to offer citizenships of the country, they just joined few hours ago? There not. Heck im pretty sure they cant "elect" to join Russia in the first place without approval from the main Ukraine government. They are just hoping no one stops them. Sad thing is they might be right. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
(read as: we're going to talk shop and do nothing until they grab a bigger piece of Ukraine) | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
That explains it. They were drinking vodka, and had a bet while playing balalaika who loses needs to find a bear to pet. So one thing led to another and big groups of Russian soldiers found themselves wondering all around Crimea looking for bears. And of course since they were only looking for bears they removed official markings from their uniforms. When Putin found out, he didn't want to admit to the world this shame so invented this story about protecting local people from Nazi Ukranians and barbaric Tartars. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21914 Posts
On March 06 2014 22:46 -Archangel- wrote: That explains it. They were drinking vodka, and had a bet while playing balalaika who loses needs to find a bear to pet. So one thing led to another and big groups of Russian soldiers found themselves wondering all around Crimea looking for bears. And of course since they were only looking for bears they removed official markings from their uniforms. When Putin found out, he didn't want to admit to the world this shame so invented this story about protecting local people from Nazi Ukranians and barbaric Tartars. Ok that seriously made me lol :p | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 06 2014 22:41 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Well the crimea is now a part of russia: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/ukraine-crisis-crimea-part-of-russia-local-parliament-declares Is this a joke website like the Onion? Because this article sounds like a total joke... | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
On March 06 2014 22:52 -Archangel- wrote: Is this a joke website like the Onion? Because this article sounds like a total joke... My sarcasm-meter is broken, could you help me out? | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 06 2014 23:03 m4ini wrote: My sarcasm-meter is broken, could you help me out? It is my way of stating my outrage at this move. If this is confirmed as real, everything Putin said in last few days was even bigger lie than we expected and this will bring us one step closer to a war. | ||
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m4ini
4215 Posts
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On March 06 2014 20:53 -Archangel- wrote: ?? USA never bombed us. We were bombed and occupied by Serbia (or what was left of Yugoslavia at the time lead by Serbia) under the story of protecting Serbian population from Croatian Nazi. I hope you see that Croatia in this analogy is not Ukraine, but Crimea. According to the argument presented here, Serbia/Yugoslavia had the right to enforce territorial integrity of Yugoslavia and prevent rebels in Croatia to declare independence. That was just sarcasm as I think you had all the right to declare independence, but I give the same right to Crimea. Of course it is hard to take any decision in Crimea too seriously due to the Russian actions. On the other hand Ukraine was not willing to grant Crimea independence in any circumstance, so ... | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On March 06 2014 22:41 Gorsameth wrote: There not. Heck im pretty sure they cant "elect" to join Russia in the first place without approval from the main Ukraine government. They are just hoping no one stops them. Sad thing is they might be right. But the government in Kiev is illegitimate. Doesn't matter what the fascists and nazists there say. It is pretty clear that this isn't 100 % uncoerced. As soon as Aksyonov, who recieved 4 % of the votes in the latest election, claimed the throne while the parliament was occupied it should have raised the fishy flag. The new decisions are not that surprising in that context, even though the vote seems like an unnecessary risk (what if crimeans vote no?). Shortening the time to the vote makes sense since the pubilc support doesn't seem to have improved for what they are doing. | ||
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HellRoxYa
Sweden1614 Posts
On March 06 2014 23:06 -Archangel- wrote: It is my way of stating my outrage at this move. If this is confirmed as real, everything Putin said in last few days was even bigger lie than we expected and this will bring us one step closer to a war. It's also confirmed by Al Jazeera http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/crimea-parliament-votes-join-russia-201436103034167985.html | ||
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-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On March 06 2014 23:14 mcc wrote: I hope you see that Croatia in this analogy is not Ukraine, but Crimea. According to the argument presented here, Serbia/Yugoslavia had the right to enforce territorial integrity of Yugoslavia and prevent rebels in Croatia to declare independence. That was just sarcasm as I think you had all the right to declare independence, but I give the same right to Crimea. Of course it is hard to take any decision in Crimea too seriously due to the Russian actions. On the other hand Ukraine was not willing to grant Crimea independence in any circumstance, so ... Actually it is not the same. Croatia was a federal republic as part of Yugoslavia (not to mention Croatia has a 1000 year history before being part of Yugoslavia). It is same as SSSR falling apart and Russia going after all the members. It would be same as Russia going after whole of Ukraine and not just Crimea. And Yugoslavia didn't attack us to get us back to Yugoslavia, and they didn't try to occupy everything but only parts that had a bigger Serbian presence. They used the same excuse as Russia is using for Crimea. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
On March 06 2014 22:41 Gorsameth wrote: There not. Heck im pretty sure they cant "elect" to join Russia in the first place without approval from the main Ukraine government. They are just hoping no one stops them. Sad thing is they might be right. The breakup of the Soviet Union was forced through by the constituent parts of the union against the Federal government as well. Gorbachev was forced to deal with the fait accompli accomplished by Yeltsin at Belavezha, and blackmailed into resignation. This was the legal basis upon which Ukrainian independence was established. If there were a Russian Edmund Burke on the scene, I'm certain he would see the revolt in Simferopol not as a breach of ancient Ukrainian right, but the affirmation of it. This act by the Crimean congress has exacerbated the difficulties of diplomacy. Until today, there was a real possibility for Western governments to restrict the scale of Russian encroachment by nailing the Russian Presidency to its word: no territorial annexations, no expansion of Russian troops beyond treaty limitations, in return for which the autonomy of select regional governments would be provisionally recognised until authority in Kiev could be legitimised by general elections. Regions to take responsibility for their own security. For the Crimea specifically: no Russian support for secession, in return for which the inviolability of Yanukovych's 2010 extension of the Black Sea Fleet agreement would be guaranteed by all parties in the Ukraine, and local demands for greater autonomy would be met. A proposal along such lines would disarm Russian pretexts for action, by addressing their concerns, rather than debating their basic legitimacy. Such a move already established an esteemed pedigree last year, when Sergei Lavrov used much the same tactic to defuse the crisis of Syrian intervention. This had seemed to me from the beginning to be the obvious line to take by the Western Powers, if they felt that they had to intervene at all. Instead, we have been caught up in the maelstrom of our own propaganda, in which the primary effort had been put on image and discourse manipulation in the public sphere, because since the Dulles-Eisenhower era, Foreign Policy in the West had ceased to be primarily about foreign policy. All politics is domestic now, and this is as true for the President of Russia as it is for his Western counterparts. In the international scene, everything that happens to the detriment of Western interests will be blamed on him, regardless of whether they be intentional or merely incidental consequences. Domestically, there will be tremendous pressures for him to take a harder line on intervention. If he does what his country expects of him, he will be flayed to the bone in Western diplomatic and media circles. As I said, an earlier, more reasonable set of de-escalation positions adopted by the West could have pre-empted this impossible situation; because in diplomacy, timing window is everything, and official decisions are in a perpetual race with the tide of organic events, in their bid for relevance and mastery. Having exerted the last week in petty name-calling, you get the sense that our political elite has no sense of this at all. | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3943 Posts
On March 06 2014 23:06 -Archangel- wrote: It is my way of stating my outrage at this move. If this is confirmed as real, everything Putin said in last few days was even bigger lie than we expected and this will bring us one step closer to a war. Almost all western media experts expected this as the most likely outcome... Russia will get Crimea, there will be puny sanctions hurting no one (visas, some delays in talks blabla), Ukraine gets closely tied to the NATO (which is not allowed to join, as this would clearly violate the regulations of the NATO) and the EU, which it may join, if they can really sell their people, that joining the EU does not mean sudden wealth, but a shit ton of reforms and regulations, which will hurt the people quite a lot at first... (ask greece) There won't be a war. Simply no one in the West cares about Crimea enough to start a war over it. The only other possible outcome, I saw predictions for, was: Ukraine grants Crimea even more autonomy, but keeps it. In return Ukraine stays neutral, and does NOT align with the West, so it neither sign the association treaty with the EU (or even joins it..) nor does it get closer to the NATO. But considering how things started, this is more and more unlikely. | ||
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