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On March 06 2014 20:46 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 19:57 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2014 19:50 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 19:41 Silvanel wrote:
What civil war? The one that Russia was so desparate to induce and when failed decided to move in? Do you know the history of that region?(it was part of Turkey, than of Russia) What nations are living in Crimea?(russians, crimean tatars) Of course - no. That's why I don't see the reason to argue with you. Then why are you here? If we don't understand the reason why Russia has a right to invade Crimea, please educate us. Make us understand why such a great leader as Putin thinks he can do stuff just because he thinks they are right? Try to see it from the Russian side. Russia has military bases in Crimea. Ukraine has military bases in Crimea. Revolution happens, ultra nationalistic groups are part of it, and as such gain significant political power ( while its significantly overblown in the Russian media, there is still some truth to that ) The military command headquarters are in Kiev, whoever controls it can communicate and issue orders to the Ukraine military personal around Ukraine. With all the chaos that came with revolution, now you have no idea who has the finger on the " button " so to speak. Now the chances of someone doing something insane like sending an order to in some way attack Russian troops are extremely small, and the likelihood of a Ukraine military following up on that order are even smaller. But don't forget what happened in Georgia. Mikheil Saakashvili was praised by all the western leaders, Georgia is an example to all the CIS countries and so on, on its way to joining NATO. Then the incident South Ossetia happened. Much like now, the western media was all over Russia, calling them the aggressors, fabricating lies, Georgia would have to be insane to provoke Russia and so on. Fast forward now, investigations from both sides agree, Georgia was the aggressor. Saakashvili went from being the west's beacon of light to, crazy dictator who no one wanted to have relations with. Long story short Russia wants to make sure nothing dumb happens in Crimea, until the situation in Ukraine's government stabilizes. That's just the way I see.
TLDR Russia has morals and invades Crimea for the greater good.
You are extremely funny, Russia's invasion made the revolution a global crisis and it's now putting the whole world on edge. Russia created this chaos and nothing would have happened in Crimea or to the russians living in Ukraine if Putin had accepted the revolution (which is impossible considering he's a loved dictator).
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On March 06 2014 20:37 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2014 20:13 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 19:57 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2014 19:50 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 19:41 Silvanel wrote:
What civil war? The one that Russia was so desparate to induce and when failed decided to move in? Do you know the history of that region?(it was part of Turkey, than of Russia) What nations are living in Crimea?(russians, crimean tatars) Of course - no. That's why I don't see the reason to argue with you. Then why are you here? If we don't understand the reason why Russia has a right to invade Crimea, please educate us. Make us understand why such a great leader as Putin thinks he can do stuff just because he thinks they are right? Who said you that Russia invade Crimea? And you need to consider if same thing took place for example in Croatia, noone would to invade or occupy it.Russia protect their interests in that region where population is Russians: 58.32%, see wikiand what happens in Kiev it is really awful just see the yesterday's session of Radaguys that have sticks just came in and talked what is need to do =) PS oh yeah and they are nazi Oh, but the same thing did happen here and we were invaded with the same story that Russia is using. I am in a unique position to understand how exactly this feels for Ukranians, except Russians are not yet bombing their cities. Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade. And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. You say it like Russia bombed you, not USA... and I didn't know that in Croatia in it's population were 58% americans...
?? USA never bombed us. We were bombed and occupied by Serbia (or what was left of Yugoslavia at the time lead by Serbia) under the story of protecting Serbian population from Croatian Nazi.
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Russian Federation38 Posts
On March 06 2014 20:46 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 19:57 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2014 19:50 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 19:41 Silvanel wrote:
What civil war? The one that Russia was so desparate to induce and when failed decided to move in? Do you know the history of that region?(it was part of Turkey, than of Russia) What nations are living in Crimea?(russians, crimean tatars) Of course - no. That's why I don't see the reason to argue with you. Then why are you here? If we don't understand the reason why Russia has a right to invade Crimea, please educate us. Make us understand why such a great leader as Putin thinks he can do stuff just because he thinks they are right? Try to see it from the Russian side. Russia has military bases in Crimea. Ukraine has military bases in Crimea. Revolution happens, ultra nationalistic groups are part of it, and as such gain significant political power ( while its significantly overblown in the Russian media, there is still some truth to that ) The military command headquarters are in Kiev, whoever controls it can communicate and issue orders to the Ukraine military personal around Ukraine. With all the chaos that came with revolution, now you have no idea who has the finger on the " button " so to speak. Now the chances of someone doing something insane like sending an order to in some way attack Russian troops are extremely small, and the likelihood of a Ukraine military following up on that order are even smaller. But don't forget what happened in Georgia. Mikheil Saakashvili was praised by all the western leaders, Georgia is an example to all the CIS countries and so on, on its way to joining NATO. Then the incident South Ossetia happened. Much like now, the western media was all over Russia, calling them the aggressors, fabricating lies, Georgia would have to be insane to provoke Russia and so on. Fast forward now, investigations from both sides agree, Georgia was the aggressor. Saakashvili went from being the west's beacon of light to, crazy dictator who no one wanted to have relations with. Long story short Russia wants to make sure nothing dumb happens in Crimea, until the situation in Ukraine's government stabilizes. That's just the way I see.
I am very glad to see an adequate point of view in this topic.
Why others think that Crimea is badly needed by Russia? there is no oil there =) and if there was oil, the first who invaded there would be ... I think you know who;)
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It doesn't take mod powers to call out a post which the poster agrees is a joke.
On the other hand, calling posters biased without pointing out what's wrong with their posts (hopefully with sources) is nothing but an ad hominem aimed at silencing them.
P. S. Anyone have a good version of the Crimean leader's statement on the UN representative?
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On March 06 2014 20:46 kukarachaa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 19:57 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2014 19:50 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 19:41 Silvanel wrote:
What civil war? The one that Russia was so desparate to induce and when failed decided to move in? Do you know the history of that region?(it was part of Turkey, than of Russia) What nations are living in Crimea?(russians, crimean tatars) Of course - no. That's why I don't see the reason to argue with you. Then why are you here? If we don't understand the reason why Russia has a right to invade Crimea, please educate us. Make us understand why such a great leader as Putin thinks he can do stuff just because he thinks they are right? Try to see it from the Russian side. Russia has military bases in Crimea. Ukraine has military bases in Crimea. Revolution happens, ultra nationalistic groups are part of it, and as such gain significant political power ( while its significantly overblown in the Russian media, there is still some truth to that ) The military command headquarters are in Kiev, whoever controls it can communicate and issue orders to the Ukraine military personal around Ukraine. With all the chaos that came with revolution, now you have no idea who has the finger on the " button " so to speak. Now the chances of someone doing something insane like sending an order to in some way attack Russian troops are extremely small, and the likelihood of a Ukraine military following up on that order are even smaller. But don't forget what happened in Georgia. Mikheil Saakashvili was praised by all the western leaders, Georgia is an example to all the CIS countries and so on, on its way to joining NATO. Then the incident South Ossetia happened. Much like now, the western media was all over Russia, calling them the aggressors, fabricating lies, Georgia would have to be insane to provoke Russia and so on. Fast forward now, investigations from both sides agree, Georgia was the aggressor. Saakashvili went from being the west's beacon of light to, crazy dictator who no one wanted to have relations with. Long story short Russia wants to make sure nothing dumb happens in Crimea, until the situation in Ukraine's government stabilizes. That's just the way I see.
Now tell me Russian forces could not remain withing the confines of there own bases and react if any of these fears actually happened.
I said this way before. If Russia actually felt this way they could easily move forces in and not leave there base.
There would be no internation problem if they did this. There would be no crisis.
But by leaving and openly displaying themselves with no prior provocation they became the aggressor.
Dont forget Russia's first action was to blockade airports. Thats not about securing anyone.
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On March 06 2014 20:37 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2014 20:13 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 19:57 -Archangel- wrote:On March 06 2014 19:50 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 19:41 Silvanel wrote:
What civil war? The one that Russia was so desparate to induce and when failed decided to move in? Do you know the history of that region?(it was part of Turkey, than of Russia) What nations are living in Crimea?(russians, crimean tatars) Of course - no. That's why I don't see the reason to argue with you. Then why are you here? If we don't understand the reason why Russia has a right to invade Crimea, please educate us. Make us understand why such a great leader as Putin thinks he can do stuff just because he thinks they are right? Who said you that Russia invade Crimea? And you need to consider if same thing took place for example in Croatia, noone would to invade or occupy it.Russia protect their interests in that region where population is Russians: 58.32%, see wikiand what happens in Kiev it is really awful just see the yesterday's session of Radaguys that have sticks just came in and talked what is need to do =) PS oh yeah and they are nazi Oh, but the same thing did happen here and we were invaded with the same story that Russia is using. I am in a unique position to understand how exactly this feels for Ukranians, except Russians are not yet bombing their cities. Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade. And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. You say it like Russia bombed you, not USA... and I didn't know that in Croatia in it's population were 58% americans...
first of all, USA never bombed this country, i'm assuming you're reffering to NATO bombing Serbia during their agression on Kosovo. here. and even if they did, we would still not be your best pals regardless, just because we share the same slavic heritage. if anything, i think the vast majority of the population supports and is as archangel said in a unique position to understand position of ukrainian people, because the exact same excuse was used by our neighbours to invade about 20 years ago. the part with 58% of americans i won't even comment. here have a picture from our main square (click click), so you can put us few places up on that list of countries to invade. consider it payback for Tito giving the finger to the soviet union.
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Sorry about the formatting, on my phone.
MarquardtA (Alexander Marquardt)
#Ukraine Supreme Court already ruled #Crimea referendum & appt of PM are illegal. Referendum will not be recognized as legally binding.
0:45 PM Mar 6th via TweetDeck
http://twitter.com/MarquardtA/status/441524927678922752
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Zurich15328 Posts
The Russian mixture of "there is no invasion" and "... but the invasion is completely justified" is mind boggling.
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On March 06 2014 20:41 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:
Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade.
And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. Did you read the history of Crimea? it was Russian region until 1954 year, when it was presented to Ukrain And 58% of population are exactly Russians, not Russian speaking Ukranians.
And what kind of point is that one ?
It is pretty simple:
- Is Crimea Ukranian territory? Yes.
- Is Ukrania a sovereign country? Yes.
- Was there any danger for russians on Crimea? Nope.
The excuses for occupation are laughable at best.
Also, stop with the "but... but... the USA does this aswell!", because most posters in here call out when the USA does the same. It's kindergarden's logic, "i punched him because that other kid also punches other people!".
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Russian Federation38 Posts
On March 06 2014 21:10 zatic wrote:
The Russian mixture of "there is no invasion" and "... but the invasion is completely justified" is mind boggling.
maybe because there is no invasion? Putin only allows the use of the army at the deteriorating situation in the region. I think it is completely justified cauz of military base there.
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On March 06 2014 21:16 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:10 zatic wrote:
The Russian mixture of "there is no invasion" and "... but the invasion is completely justified" is mind boggling. maybe because there is no invasion? Putin only allows the use of the army at the deteriorating situation in the region. I think it is completely justified cauz of military base there.
So why are they not on said bases while there is nothing go on.
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Russian Federation38 Posts
On March 06 2014 21:13 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 20:41 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:
Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade.
And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. Did you read the history of Crimea? it was Russian region until 1954 year, when it was presented to Ukrain And 58% of population are exactly Russians, not Russian speaking Ukranians. And what kind of point is that one ? It is pretty simple: - Is Crimea Ukranian territory? Yes. - Is Ukrania a sovereign country? Yes. - Was there any danger for russians on Crimea? Nope. The excuses for occupation are laughable at best. Also, stop with the "but... but... the USA does this aswell!", because most posters in here call out when the USA does the same. It's kindergarden's logic, "i punched him because that other kid also punches other people!".
of course you have all information, and know about how crimean tatars are ready at any time to cut all Russians in that region... would be a bloodbath if there no Russian army there at all.
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On March 06 2014 21:16 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:10 zatic wrote:
The Russian mixture of "there is no invasion" and "... but the invasion is completely justified" is mind boggling. maybe because there is no invasion? Putin only allows the use of the army at the deteriorating situation in the region. I think it is completely justified cauz of military base there.
Seizing goverment and military buildings at the point of a gun is pretty much a "no occuppation" now. Yes, i am being sarcastic.
On March 06 2014 21:20 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:13 Godwrath wrote:On March 06 2014 20:41 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:
Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade.
And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. Did you read the history of Crimea? it was Russian region until 1954 year, when it was presented to Ukrain And 58% of population are exactly Russians, not Russian speaking Ukranians. And what kind of point is that one ? It is pretty simple: - Is Crimea Ukranian territory? Yes. - Is Ukrania a sovereign country? Yes. - Was there any danger for russians on Crimea? Nope. The excuses for occupation are laughable at best. Also, stop with the "but... but... the USA does this aswell!", because most posters in here call out when the USA does the same. It's kindergarden's logic, "i punched him because that other kid also punches other people!". of course you have all information, and know about how crimean tatars are ready at any time to cut all Russians in that region... would be a bloodbath if there no Russian army there at all.
You realize you haven't answered to the points i made, right ?
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It seems the march 30 referendum, moved to march 16 will have 2 questions instead of one:
'Are you in favour of Crimea becoming a constituent territory of the Russian Federation?' and
'Are you in favour of restoring Crimea’s 1992 constitution?'
Previously only the second question had been put on the ballot, but in an amazing act of understanding, a vote of 78 'ay' to 0 'nai' and 8 'who?' crimean parliament added the first question.
source
Btw. Ghanburighan provide further information on the circumstances in this thread. Closed meeting (why?) and the vote has been found illegal by Kiev.
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On March 06 2014 21:20 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:13 Godwrath wrote:On March 06 2014 20:41 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:
Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade.
And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. Did you read the history of Crimea? it was Russian region until 1954 year, when it was presented to Ukrain And 58% of population are exactly Russians, not Russian speaking Ukranians. And what kind of point is that one ? It is pretty simple: - Is Crimea Ukranian territory? Yes. - Is Ukrania a sovereign country? Yes. - Was there any danger for russians on Crimea? Nope. The excuses for occupation are laughable at best. Also, stop with the "but... but... the USA does this aswell!", because most posters in here call out when the USA does the same. It's kindergarden's logic, "i punched him because that other kid also punches other people!". of course you have all information, and know about how crimean tatars are ready at any time to cut all Russians in that region... would be a bloodbath if there no Russian army there at all.
The tatars are the evil guys now?
INVADE TURKEY!!!! erm... i meant ' protect turkey from it's own people'
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On March 06 2014 21:21 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:16 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 21:10 zatic wrote:
The Russian mixture of "there is no invasion" and "... but the invasion is completely justified" is mind boggling. maybe because there is no invasion? Putin only allows the use of the army at the deteriorating situation in the region. I think it is completely justified cauz of military base there. Seizing goverment and military buildings at the point of a gun is pretty much a "no occuppation" now. Yes, i am being sarcastic. Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:20 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 21:13 Godwrath wrote:On March 06 2014 20:41 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:
Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade.
And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. Did you read the history of Crimea? it was Russian region until 1954 year, when it was presented to Ukrain And 58% of population are exactly Russians, not Russian speaking Ukranians. And what kind of point is that one ? It is pretty simple: - Is Crimea Ukranian territory? Yes. - Is Ukrania a sovereign country? Yes. - Was there any danger for russians on Crimea? Nope. The excuses for occupation are laughable at best. Also, stop with the "but... but... the USA does this aswell!", because most posters in here call out when the USA does the same. It's kindergarden's logic, "i punched him because that other kid also punches other people!". of course you have all information, and know about how crimean tatars are ready at any time to cut all Russians in that region... would be a bloodbath if there no Russian army there at all. You realize you haven't answered to the points i made, right ?
He hasn't answered any of my points too, either he is too stupid to answer or more likely he can't so he relies on propaganda, assumptions and feelings.
"that region... would be a bloodbath if there no Russian army there at all"
That line is gold.
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Russian Federation38 Posts
On March 06 2014 21:32 mahrgell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:20 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 21:13 Godwrath wrote:On March 06 2014 20:41 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:
Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade.
And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. Did you read the history of Crimea? it was Russian region until 1954 year, when it was presented to Ukrain And 58% of population are exactly Russians, not Russian speaking Ukranians. And what kind of point is that one ? It is pretty simple: - Is Crimea Ukranian territory? Yes. - Is Ukrania a sovereign country? Yes. - Was there any danger for russians on Crimea? Nope. The excuses for occupation are laughable at best. Also, stop with the "but... but... the USA does this aswell!", because most posters in here call out when the USA does the same. It's kindergarden's logic, "i punched him because that other kid also punches other people!". of course you have all information, and know about how crimean tatars are ready at any time to cut all Russians in that region... would be a bloodbath if there no Russian army there at all. The tatars are the evil guys now? INVADE TURKEY!!!! erm... i meant ' protect turkey from it's own people'
They are not civilized Europeans, and really they are very specific Muslim Nation. If you have no information about this how can you all judge this situation at all?
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Russian Federation38 Posts
On March 06 2014 21:34 Acertos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:21 Godwrath wrote:On March 06 2014 21:16 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 21:10 zatic wrote:
The Russian mixture of "there is no invasion" and "... but the invasion is completely justified" is mind boggling. maybe because there is no invasion? Putin only allows the use of the army at the deteriorating situation in the region. I think it is completely justified cauz of military base there. Seizing goverment and military buildings at the point of a gun is pretty much a "no occuppation" now. Yes, i am being sarcastic. On March 06 2014 21:20 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 21:13 Godwrath wrote:On March 06 2014 20:41 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:
Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade.
And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. Did you read the history of Crimea? it was Russian region until 1954 year, when it was presented to Ukrain And 58% of population are exactly Russians, not Russian speaking Ukranians. And what kind of point is that one ? It is pretty simple: - Is Crimea Ukranian territory? Yes. - Is Ukrania a sovereign country? Yes. - Was there any danger for russians on Crimea? Nope. The excuses for occupation are laughable at best. Also, stop with the "but... but... the USA does this aswell!", because most posters in here call out when the USA does the same. It's kindergarden's logic, "i punched him because that other kid also punches other people!". of course you have all information, and know about how crimean tatars are ready at any time to cut all Russians in that region... would be a bloodbath if there no Russian army there at all. You realize you haven't answered to the points i made, right ? He hasn't answered any of my points too, either he is too stupid to answer or more likely he can't so he relies on propaganda, assumptions and feelings. "that region... would be a bloodbath if there no Russian army there at all" That line is gold.
dear french friend, I will not stoop to insults, but I'm not sure who rellies on propaganda etc.
User was warned for this post
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On March 06 2014 21:35 Dlash23 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2014 21:32 mahrgell wrote:On March 06 2014 21:20 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 21:13 Godwrath wrote:On March 06 2014 20:41 Dlash23 wrote:On March 06 2014 20:28 -Archangel- wrote:
Even if Russians are 58% (and those people don't just consider themselves Russian speaking Ukranians) it gives no rights for Russian military to invade.
And since when is every nationalist Nazi? By same logic both Russia and half of USA are Nazi. Did you read the history of Crimea? it was Russian region until 1954 year, when it was presented to Ukrain And 58% of population are exactly Russians, not Russian speaking Ukranians. And what kind of point is that one ? It is pretty simple: - Is Crimea Ukranian territory? Yes. - Is Ukrania a sovereign country? Yes. - Was there any danger for russians on Crimea? Nope. The excuses for occupation are laughable at best. Also, stop with the "but... but... the USA does this aswell!", because most posters in here call out when the USA does the same. It's kindergarden's logic, "i punched him because that other kid also punches other people!". of course you have all information, and know about how crimean tatars are ready at any time to cut all Russians in that region... would be a bloodbath if there no Russian army there at all. The tatars are the evil guys now? INVADE TURKEY!!!! erm... i meant ' protect turkey from it's own people' They are not civilized Europeans, and really they are very specific Muslim Nation. If you have no information about this how can you all judge this situation at all?
So Russians are civilized europeans? Personally I think invading another country for no good reason is barbaric.
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EPT
