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On April 06 2012 17:49 vandelayindustries wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:38 aFganFlyTrap wrote:On April 06 2012 17:18 zefreak wrote:On April 06 2012 17:16 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
i agree with kennigit. also using the IPL as an example of how the foreigner scene is doing is just wrong. besides a few top Europeans they are ALL at copenhagen games and the gathering this weekend, not at IPL. Can you name the ones that you think would have a chance at winning IPL4? Because there are more than a dozen koreans in attendance that I wouldn't be too surprised to take it, and there are even more that aren't attending. i dont think you understand my point -_- but to humour you ill give you a list of player that are not attending IPL happy kas cloud lucifron thorzain bratok titan nightend grubby snute morrow elfi turuk happyzerg and these are just SOME of the names as CPG and TG12 to name some more. naniwa nerchio fraer mana biGs diestar strelok satiini socke darkforce beastqt lalush goody dbs tarson hasuobs xlord delphi feast naama (if you even DARE say "but none of them will win!" then you sir are an idiot and do not understand what we are actually talking about.) you will never get 90% of europe and korea at 1 tournament to gauge how well both the scenes fair vs each other. thats why using tournaments like IPL to compare both the scenes is silly. sure you can speculate but dont use IPL as a reason to why your argument is correct. With the exception of 2, perhaps 3, players on that list, every single one of them would be chewed up and spit back out by the GSL prelims/code A in comprehensive fashion.
I am a huge EU players fan since I am pretty much emotionally invested in many of mentioned players due to my wc3 "origin" and agree with that.
The absolute Top Koreans are out of reach, and as it stands now it´s gonna stay this way for quite some time. On the other hand I see potential from at least a hand full of players who should be able to reach a level where they could compete on the absolute highest level, including Top Koreans.
But that´s just a (rather unreliable) estimation and should be taken with a grain of salt.
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i actually have the exact opposite opinion... I think the Korean's are gaining a bigger gap between foreigners and themselves... There are about 10-20 foreigners in the world who can compete with the koreans, and in a bo7 i give about half of them a chance to make it... The only real results we ever see are even when koreans are playing at a disadvantage (traveling to other countries to compete [jet lag, out of practice for a few days, out of their elements, etc.]) and even then it seems to be a stomping. Foreigners are given free passes to Code S, just to be dropped in the first round like a bad habit.... If we sent the best foreigners in the world to play in the GSL, only about 5 of them might make it into Code S and after that I'd give 1-2 a chance to progress through the bracket... Obviously, I'm nobody important but that's just my opinion... Koreans play at top form in the GSL, they come to America to make some quick easy money, or else they wouldn't bother traveling...
They're also the ones innovating current metagame, developing new builds that evolve the game to what we play today.... They just seem to be one step ahead of everybody else.
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Short Answer- No
Long Answer- Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
(Viewers of Zero Punctuation should get that reference)
In all seriousness, There are maybe a handful of god-chosen children that can compete with Koreans in either a- Code A matches, or b- MLG/IPL style "sprint" tournaments that Koreans have no experience with. Within a year, Huk has been the only foreigner to prove himself at a GSL Code S Level consistently. You know how many other players there are in Code S? 31. One can make an argument for Naniwa, Stephano, or some few select others, but they serve as the exception that proves the korea>foreigners rule
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As long as we'll be able to remember which foreigner beat which korean, or to celebrate each foreigner win over koreans, it'll mean that the skill gap is still here
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On April 06 2012 17:53 THM wrote:Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2. THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is 
Is this trolling? You realize the BW pros will get stomped bad for quite awhile if they switch to SC2. You also realize they are not any better than the SC2 pro's other than they on average train longer and have better refined what they need to do to learn something. Look at winrates among the top players in both. Enjoy.
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Not going to happen. Korea has a centralized location where virtually all SC is played competitively. They have the best team houses, generally great coaches, and other top tier players with similar mentalities. This simply won't happen in the foreign scene unless there is a massive move towards league centralization. If US teams for instance had a continual tournament in NY or LA or even somewhere more central like Dallas, then I could see the scene developing correctly. With events like MLG which are 1 weekend every month or so, there is no one place that foreign players consistently play against each other. As a result, preparation is less focused than the Koreans.
Lets say MLG settled down and started a GSL-style tournament with 6-8 weeks of groups, separate tiers of players (like Code B/A/S), and a fixed location that had the same casters running their show. Teams who were playing in that tournament would find houses in the same area as the tournament and all of the players would then have the advantage of proximity that Koreans currently enjoy. I can't possibly see foreigners achieving the same success without this...you might get prodigies like Stephano who just understand the game and can play at a high level but it won't be widespread. I don't know if this is even possible but it would be the best thing to happen to foreign SC if it did.
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On April 06 2012 18:25 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:53 THM wrote:Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2. THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is Is this trolling? You realize the BW pros will get stomped bad for quite awhile if they switch to SC2. You also realize they are not any better than the SC2 pro's other than they on average train longer and have better refined what they need to do to learn something. Look at winrates among the top players in both. Enjoy.
One word, Flash.
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Other than a select few, no.
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On April 06 2012 18:25 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:53 THM wrote:Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2. THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is Is this trolling? You realize the BW pros will get stomped bad for quite awhile if they switch to SC2. You also realize they are not any better than the SC2 pro's other than they on average train longer and have better refined what they need to do to learn something. Look at winrates among the top players in both. Enjoy.
lol @ you. Not even going to bother addressing most of the fail in this as I am sure someone else will but I will let you know that BW players such as Jaedong have already started playing SC2 and they all have multiple Master league accounts (Korean server obviously).
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323013¤tpage=52#1033
Enjoy.
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No they haven't.. if anything the latest results show that Korea has (more than ever) the best practice environment, hence produces the best players.
Huk and Naniwa are the best foreigners. They might be code S level or somewhere between code A and S. But they've lived in Korea for so long that I don't think they still represent the foreigner scene.
Ret, Stephano and DeMulsim (and maybe a couple others depending on form and tournament style) are the best '100% foreigners' (as in 'not living in Korea'). They can compete with code A players and sometimes code S players on a good day, but can also lose to code-B level Koreans on any day.
As you said IPL is going to give us great Korean vs Foreigner games (which I think we should call the KvF matchup ^^), but as far as the outcome go, I can't see any foreigners qualifying from the open bracket, and only Stephano has a chance to make it to the championship bracket (WhiteRa being is his group might help him in that sense).
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The difference was once pretty small and it has gotten bigger ever since. Just because a few foreigners have had some success doesn't mean the skill gap is closing. Maybe you could argue that the very top foreigners have gotten closer but you'd be hardpressed to make such an argument. In the first gsl, we had several foreigners that could potentially make a decent run in the gsl, now we have between zero to at most 2 imo.
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wtf is this thread seriously... OP clearly wanted to bait us to a flamefest.
I'd say there's more skill gap between Korean and rest of the World Starcraft 2 scenes than NBA and the rest of the world basketball leagues. It's somewhat comparable to NFL and other leagues.
On April 06 2012 18:32 Hall0wed wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 18:25 mrtomjones wrote:On April 06 2012 17:53 THM wrote:Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2. THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is Is this trolling? You realize the BW pros will get stomped bad for quite awhile if they switch to SC2. You also realize they are not any better than the SC2 pro's other than they on average train longer and have better refined what they need to do to learn something. Look at winrates among the top players in both. Enjoy. lol @ you. Not even going to bother addressing most of the fail in this as I am sure someone else will but I will let you know that BW players such as Jaedong have already started playing SC2 and they all have multiple Master league accounts (Korean server obviously). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323013¤tpage=52#1033Enjoy.
기존 스타2 선수들과 실력 차가 클 것 같은데?
"만약 병행이 된다면 선수들의 실력이 지금껏 스타2를 지켜봐온 마니아층에서 볼 땐 상당히 떨어져 보일 수도 있을 것이다. 1999년에 활동하던 선수들과 지금의 선수들은 실력 차가 크다. 하지만 크게 우려하지는 않는다. 조금만 지나면 금방 끌어올릴 수 있을 것이라 생각한다. GSL에서 활동 중인 선수들과 막 시작한 우리 선수들을 비교해보면 하늘과 땅 차이다. 하지만 경험의 차이는 금방 따라잡을 수 있을 것이라 생각한다."
Translation:
Q: The skill gap between your players and original SC2 players looks quite large.
A: If it happens (T/N: meaning SC2 in proleague) the play level will look very low compared to what fans are used to seeing now, just like there is a huge gap between BW players from 1999 and now. But I am not too worried, because we are confident we can upgrade our skill given a little bit of time. The difference in skill between GSL players and ours is like heaven and earth, but I think we can catch up quickly.
So yes, they will be stomped for a while when matched up with current SC2 pros. I think coach Ju knows better than you do.
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Foreigners are performing very poorly in the GSL. It's been awhile since a foreigner even won a set there. We'll see if Naniwa can make up for his Blizzcon performance (and I'm not talking about his probe rush, I'm talking about going 0-3 before that).
In online and overseas tournaments the best foreigners can compete with the mid tier koreans and occasionally make upsets against the top tiers, but there are many factors there (lag for online tournaments, jet lag for overseas, etc).
Then again it's possible that it's just the format of the GSL. Koreans are known for practicing a lot, and that's basically how GSL matches are where you have a ton of time to practice and study your opponents. Other tournaments depend more on mechanics as you play many matches in a row (of course playing that many in a row, you're bound to lose a set to an inferior player).
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I feel the gap is widening. As the time goes on the gap will get bigger and bigger between korean and foriegner. In the begining of SC2's scene foriegner were able to win some tournaments but now I don't think they will be able to. If I remember right Korean won almost all of tournaments in 2012 except Lonestarclash. The very best forienger can lose to some very low tier korean but mid tier korean hardly lose to low tier foriegner.
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I think there's a few that can compete with Koreans, but if they were to play in the GSL, I don't think they will be able to win it.
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Not even close to equal.
It's worse than ever for the foreigners overall.
After IPL4 it will be even more apparent when 0 foreigners make it out of the open bracket.
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Personally I dont think that foreigners has really caught up with Korea skillwise, but the situation is by far better than it was in StarCraft:BroodWar. By far better.
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Not really, I think it has gone further and further apart, the more we learn about the game the more the Koreans get ahead. Their practice is superior to the foreigners and when they practice together they grow even stronger.
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some protosses did catch up with korean protosses
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no, but i think if we take top 10 foreigners, they can compete with top 10 koreans( not equally but i wont be surprised if foreigners won)... but KR has numbers on their side....
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EPT
