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On April 06 2012 17:33 Shellshock1122 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:31 Hall0wed wrote:On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote:
Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc. Hey now, I love HuK and am in no way a fan of Stephano, but HuK has sadly never beaten Stephano in a tournament game (to my knowledge atleast, I believe HuK is 0-4 against Stephano) and I doubt they have played on the ladder much. That being said, HuK is also 1-2 against Artosis' Zerg in tournament games... Koreans fighting! I dont think he was saying Huk beats stephano. I think he meant to say that Stephano and ThorZain are examples of players like Huk that can beat Koreans. Just written a little confusing but I think this interpretation would make a little more sense
Oh man you gosu English to English translator. Kamsahamnida~
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If the player pool is 50% korean and 50% foreigners in any event... I'd bet my money a korean takes the entire tournament even if there are no seeds. If a tournament has 25% korean and 75% foreigners and no seeds, I'd still bet a korean to take the tournament. If a tournament has 25% korean and 75% foreigners with seeds favoring foreigners such as MLG providence then I'd still bet on a korean. So is there a skill gap between foreigners and koreans? Yes. How big? We'll see in IPL this week :D.
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Considering that foreigners are better paid, sponsored, and have more tournaments to play, their results have been disappointing. It's an insult that Korean progamers who don't even have salaries manage to not work harder than us, but outperform us.
The best has yet to come for the Korean players. MVP was ranked top 30-40th in Broodwar at his ELO peak in the Hana Daetoo MSL AFAIK. There are about 40+ players who are above MVP's skill level still yet to play SC2.
Yes, we can make excuses of how Koreans get paid to play full-time back in the Broodwar days, but SC2 has turned a 180 to our favor and we still blow.
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On April 06 2012 17:38 aFganFlyTrap wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:18 zefreak wrote:On April 06 2012 17:16 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
i agree with kennigit. also using the IPL as an example of how the foreigner scene is doing is just wrong. besides a few top Europeans they are ALL at copenhagen games and the gathering this weekend, not at IPL. Can you name the ones that you think would have a chance at winning IPL4? Because there are more than a dozen koreans in attendance that I wouldn't be too surprised to take it, and there are even more that aren't attending. i dont think you understand my point -_- but to humour you ill give you a list of player that are not attending IPL happy kas cloud lucifron thorzain bratok titan nightend grubby snute morrow elfi turuk happyzerg and these are just SOME of the names as CPG and TG12 to name some more. naniwa nerchio fraer mana biGs diestar strelok satiini socke darkforce beastqt lalush goody dbs tarson hasuobs xlord delphi feast naama (if you even DARE say "but none of them will win!" then you sir are an idiot and do not understand what we are actually talking about.) you will never get 90% of europe and korea at 1 tournament to gauge how well both the scenes fair vs each other. thats why using tournaments like IPL to compare both the scenes is silly. sure you can speculate but dont use IPL as a reason to why your argument is correct.
Is that really a list of people you think could win IPL4 dude? Thorzain or Naniwa are the only ones who could even conceivably win it on that list... you also think Korea and Europe are equal? -_-
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United Kingdom1123 Posts
All the big tournaments minus Dreamhack are held in the US, this means that you will never have Europe and Korea at full force to see how each scene stacks up.
Even with this I still believe that Korea are leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to skill levels, yes there are a few outliers for the foreign scene like Stephano, Naniwa and Huk but the problem is that 2 of those 3 have been in Korea practicing. Korean's just have a far better attitude in terms of how much they practice and how they practice. With the Korean mentality I can see the skill gap only getting larger as time goes on, the same that happened in bw.
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On April 06 2012 16:58 NoctemSC wrote:Very good quality first post, welcome to TeamLiquid  I honestly believe many foreigners have the potential to be as good as Koreans. Notice how I said potential? The reason for that is simply because Koreans practices A LOT more than 99% of foreigner pros. Practice makes perfect as the old adage would say. Stephano only practicing 3-4 hours a day and beating top tier Code S players shows this. I'm by no means a Stephano fanboy but realistically, could you imagine the beast that would be awoken if Stephano played as much as the Korean pro players? TL&DR Koreans practice a lot more than Foreigners.
This!
In my opinion it's the training enviroment and the amount of practice.
Though I think that foreigners have the more creative strategies that might and does outlive Korean styles.
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Eh? Is this a troll because the numbers of top Koreans players > top foreign players. Assume a tournament with half of Koreans and half of Foreigners who would win? Assume a team tournament such as the GSTL would Foreigners win? I think in about 5 years if sc2 is still kicking there will be a chance for foreginers.
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United States290 Posts
On April 06 2012 17:38 aFganFlyTrap wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:18 zefreak wrote:On April 06 2012 17:16 aFganFlyTrap wrote:
i agree with kennigit. also using the IPL as an example of how the foreigner scene is doing is just wrong. besides a few top Europeans they are ALL at copenhagen games and the gathering this weekend, not at IPL. Can you name the ones that you think would have a chance at winning IPL4? Because there are more than a dozen koreans in attendance that I wouldn't be too surprised to take it, and there are even more that aren't attending. i dont think you understand my point -_- but to humour you ill give you a list of player that are not attending IPL happy kas cloud lucifron thorzain bratok titan nightend grubby snute morrow elfi turuk happyzerg and these are just SOME of the names as CPG and TG12 to name some more. naniwa nerchio fraer mana biGs diestar strelok satiini socke darkforce beastqt lalush goody dbs tarson hasuobs xlord delphi feast naama (if you even DARE say "but none of them will win!" then you sir are an idiot and do not understand what we are actually talking about.) you will never get 90% of europe and korea at 1 tournament to gauge how well both the scenes fair vs each other. thats why using tournaments like IPL to compare both the scenes is silly. sure you can speculate but dont use IPL as a reason to why your argument is correct.
With the exception of 2, perhaps 3, players on that list, every single one of them would be chewed up and spit back out by the GSL prelims/code A in comprehensive fashion.
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IPL4 will be the perfect situation to see how foreigners measure up. TONS of koreans, most of the top foreigners. If we get a lot of foreigners in the final bracket, sure, but I'm definitely not expecting it.
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There is a gap and it's getting larger.
The biggest difference is that while we have a few players that could contend with the top Korean players, there are SO many Koreans that could thrash 99% of the foreign scene; there are just many more good Koreans, and they're improving much faster than foreigners.
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On April 06 2012 17:10 00 wrote:Nigger please, check the 2012 premier tournament results: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RyMy4.jpg)
You have got to be kidding me with this language?
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Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2.
THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is
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Foreigners will always have PvP...
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Do foreigners have the same practice conditions and work ethics as Koreans? No? Then no, they have not caught up to Koreans.
I don't know why there are so many threads about this issue. It's been established many times that there are no magical Starcraft genes that make Koreans innately better at the game. It boils down to how much time you put into an effective practice schedule. When foreigners practice as efficiently as Koreans then they will have caught up in skill level.
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hell no and this gap 'll continue to larger
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Should have posted this after Ip4 where foreigners get smashed/hold their own
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On April 06 2012 17:10 00 wrote:Nigger please, check the 2012 premier tournament results:
1 post and racial slur? This is fail on every level, regardless of what follows.
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foreginers are all noobs. KOREAN PRIDE
![[image loading]](http://static.gamebattles.com/gb/arenas/teams/10/712/746/logo356100745881291740936.png)
User was temp banned for this post.
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Overall, I'd say no.
I am looking at it like this, from best to worst:
1. The best koreans(MKP, DRG, MMA etc.) 10-20 players, hard to determine who and how many in this group of koreaners that are better then any foreigner.
2. The best foreigners(Naniwa, Huk, ret, stephano). About 5 players, give or take a few.
3. The top koreans. Code A and code S quality players. 30+ players. Again, hard if not impossible to determine the exact amount but there are many koreans that are better then top foreigners.
4. The top foreigners. These are the players we like to watch in tournaments and beleive can do well. I would say all these are below the best 50 koreans.
5. Everyone else.
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There is certainly a skill gap, However you look at the western scene and there is no where near the structure there is of korea. Imagine in Europe, America or SEA a properly structured - i guess you could say "Training scene". Having that would reduce the skill gap to nothing. Don't get me wrong the gap could be closed, its just until there are more houses and bootcamp style places in the west there is always going to be a skill gap.
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EPT
