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On April 07 2012 03:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:20 karpo wrote:On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no. Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large. The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help) Holy crap, the number of excuses here... How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country? How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right? How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans? How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months? GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
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On April 07 2012 05:55 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 03:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 06 2012 17:20 karpo wrote:On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no. Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large. The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help) Holy crap, the number of excuses here... How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country? How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right? How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans? How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months? GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you". you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better ! quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
That and the fact they're practicing instead of reading forums.
Not saying you aren't working your ass off but nevertheless this is how it is.
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Best Koreans better than best foreigners, but I'd definitely say that the gap has closed considerably since BW, that Koreans can no longer take foreigner lightly.
There also needs to be a "post # requirement" before people are allowed start new topics.
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On April 07 2012 05:59 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 05:55 Naniwa wrote:On April 07 2012 03:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 06 2012 17:20 karpo wrote:On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no. Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large. The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help) Holy crap, the number of excuses here... How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country? How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right? How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans? How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months? GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you". you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better ! quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is. That and the fact they're practicing instead of reading forums. Not saying you aren't working your ass off but nevertheless this is how it is.
last time i respond to idiots like you who dont know anything, They read playxp.com 24/7  and teamliquid
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On April 07 2012 05:55 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 03:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 06 2012 17:20 karpo wrote:On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no. Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large. The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help) Holy crap, the number of excuses here... How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country? How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right? How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans? How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months? GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you". you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better ! quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
Don't worry about the haters, Naniwa. Hopefully you can assemble a trusted circle of quality players/practice partners to
even the playing field somewhat on the preparation/analysis front. You have the talent, just maintain the belief. And get the support network in place to show your skills!
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On April 07 2012 05:55 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 03:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 06 2012 17:20 karpo wrote:On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no. Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large. The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help) Holy crap, the number of excuses here... How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country? How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right? How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans? How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months? GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you". you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better ! quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
I can't wait to see you drop out of GSL again.
User was banned for this post.
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i haven't watched much sc2 but i'd think the upsets are more from the volatility of sc2 where a lot of games can be coin flippy. and because of that coin flippiness, the "better" player can't always win. all ins are very strong. how many times have foreigners won by outplaying their opponent? only guys like naniwa, huk, and stephano are capable of that. none of the other foreigners are even close to their level.
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On April 07 2012 05:51 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:38 setzer wrote:On April 07 2012 04:09 Mr Showtime wrote:On April 07 2012 00:17 jj33 wrote:On April 07 2012 00:04 Mr Showtime wrote:
There's a handful of Koreans at the very top that nobody can compete with on a regular basis, but in general, the top foreigners can compete with the top Koreans now. top foreigners can't even make code A. so your statement is not true. Stephano and huk / naniwa can take series off top Koreans, but others have shown jack nothing. so if you mean by top foreigners by those three I mentioned sure. but koreans have like 12312321 players and up and comers you've never heard of. Please show me the long list of foreigners who dedicate their career to making it in GSL. Nobody does. The top foreigners are defeating the top level Koreans (with exception to the few at the very top) regularly enough that the skill level seems similar. Lol okay so there are 5 people who can regularly compete with the top50 Koreans and that somehow means the skill level between the Korean scene and foreign scene is similar? Nobody made that claim. You should read first. There's far more than 5 foreigners that can compete. Do some research, and stop making ignorant claims.
By all means please start naming the far-exceeding limit of 5 foreigners who can actually compete for 1st at an event with Koreans in it.
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Definitely not. Look at the winrates. Zerg is winning vs Protoss outside of Korea, but losing vs Protoss (and Terran) inside Korea.
This must mean that one is playing better than the other.
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On April 07 2012 04:47 Jeremy Reimer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:38 setzer wrote:
Lol okay so there are 5 people who can regularly compete with the top50 Koreans and that somehow means the skill level between the Korean scene and foreign scene is similar? It means the Korean scene is so much bigger that they can field 50 players who dedicate the same time, effort, and structured practice as the five foreigners who do the same. Where are the up-and-coming foreign players? Why have the top Koreans always been in a state of flux, whereas the top foreigners are the same people they were in Beta?
This is so ridiculous lol. Apparently the Korean SC2 Scene is bigger than all of EU/CN/AM/SEA
That's why KR has more top pros than all other regions combined... duhhh
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*takes a look at the IPL4 Open Bracket
*reads the title of this fail of a thread
*facepalm
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No it hasn't, to be honest you can see just from results in GSL, only foreigners to ever actually do notably well in code s is idra, huk, naniwa and torch that's it. The practice regime difference will maintain the gap between skills.
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United States97276 Posts
On April 07 2012 09:07 DashedHopes wrote:
No it hasn't, to be honest you can see just from results in GSL, only foreigners to ever actually do notably well in code s is idra, huk, naniwa and torch that's it. The practice regime difference will maintain the gap between skills.
torch was open season instead of code s. and you forgot jinro who got to semifinals of code s and open season
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On April 07 2012 09:07 DashedHopes wrote:
No it hasn't, to be honest you can see just from results in GSL, only foreigners to ever actually do notably well in code s is idra, huk, naniwa and torch that's it. The practice regime difference will maintain the gap between skills.
the only foreigners with good results inn code s were idra, huk and jinro :/
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On April 07 2012 05:59 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 05:55 Naniwa wrote:On April 07 2012 03:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 06 2012 17:20 karpo wrote:On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no. Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large. The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help) Holy crap, the number of excuses here... How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country? How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right? How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans? How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months? GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you". you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better ! quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is. That and the fact they're practicing instead of reading forums. Not saying you aren't working your ass off but nevertheless this is how it is.
Wow, I don't even know what to say about this post. Naniwa is posting in this thread therefore he isn't spending enough time practicing? The only way to explain a post so devoid of logic is that you wanted to get a reaction out of a pro...or are just a drama queen or something. TL needs more posters like you bud.
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ipl4 would like to disagree with the op.
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Canada13389 Posts
On April 07 2012 06:00 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 05:59 decaf wrote:On April 07 2012 05:55 Naniwa wrote:On April 07 2012 03:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 06 2012 17:20 karpo wrote:On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no. Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large. The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help) Holy crap, the number of excuses here... How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country? How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right? How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans? How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months? GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you". you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better ! quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is. That and the fact they're practicing instead of reading forums. Not saying you aren't working your ass off but nevertheless this is how it is. last time i respond to idiots like you who dont know anything, They read playxp.com 24/7 and teamliquid
Seriously, there's no need to shit on the foreign players who take the time to try and get really good and take the time to post on forums from time to time. My understanding of Playxp is that pros post more often there than the foreigners post here on TL.
Keep up the good work in Korea Nani, I really hope you find more practice partners who don't leak your replays
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On April 07 2012 05:59 wei2coolman wrote:
Best Koreans better than best foreigners, but I'd definitely say that the gap has closed considerably since BW, that Koreans can no longer take foreigner lightly.
There also needs to be a "post # requirement" before people are allowed start new topics.
Why? I don't understand this mentality of some of the veteran posters, do you want this to become a site full of elitism? Yes probably more than half of people with >200 posts make poor topics but why should there be a minimum post count? There are plenty who just lurk and make a post here and there why should they have to make 500 posts before being able to make a topic?
If someone makes a poor op/controversial op its up to the moderators to shut them down (which they do a great job of btw) But i am just going to assume you made this post out of sheer fatigue. I do see your point and i agree with you to a degree but i hope Teamliquid doesn't become like that one day. I love this sites for its equality, someone with 10 posts can post something just as insightful as someone with <1000 posts.
Edit: After looking at your post history let me just say this, i would rather someone have 10 meaningful quality posts rather than 2000 one liners -.-
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On April 07 2012 05:55 Naniwa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 03:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 06 2012 17:20 karpo wrote:On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no. Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large. The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help) Holy crap, the number of excuses here... How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country? How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right? How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans? How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months? GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you". you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better ! quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
I thought the same way as you for a while. Willingness to train isn't everything and behind the apparent mask of being kind and nice, koreans are a highly proud and protective people. When Koreans will truly open their arms to train with foreigners, we will see a change
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EPT
