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On April 07 2012 04:09 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:17 jj33 wrote:On April 07 2012 00:04 Mr Showtime wrote:
There's a handful of Koreans at the very top that nobody can compete with on a regular basis, but in general, the top foreigners can compete with the top Koreans now. top foreigners can't even make code A. so your statement is not true. Stephano and huk / naniwa can take series off top Koreans, but others have shown jack nothing. so if you mean by top foreigners by those three I mentioned sure. but koreans have like 12312321 players and up and comers you've never heard of. Please show me the long list of foreigners who dedicate their career to making it in GSL. Nobody does. The top foreigners are defeating the top level Koreans (with exception to the few at the very top) regularly enough that the skill level seems similar.
Lol okay so there are 5 people who can regularly compete with the top50 Koreans and that somehow means the skill level between the Korean scene and foreign scene is similar?
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caught up? the skill gap has increased even more.
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On April 07 2012 04:32 heyoka wrote:
For what it's worth Wax set over/under for "number of nonKoreans in top 8" at 0.5 and no one we have talked to at IPL has taken the over yet.
I wouldn't take the over either. the Mental barrier is still there for foreigners
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The skill gap is growing, not shrinking. Have you seen the MLGs recently? When the GSL players show up almost all the foreigners just lose. We cheer and go crazy if a foreigner beats ONE of them!
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No, if anything Koreans are starting to pull away. Any chance foreigners have competing (beyond the top 5 or so) is due to SC2's flaws in game design and map design.
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On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote:
Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
It's funny because I actually feel exactly the opposite. I think the top foreigners can compete with top Koreans, but after that, there seems to be a big dropoff in foreigner skill, with a much smaller dropoff in Korean skill. Really interesting how two people can see something so differently.
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On April 07 2012 04:41 0neder wrote:
No, if anything Koreans are starting to pull away. Any chance foreigners have competing (beyond the top 5 or so) is due to SC2's flaws in game design and map design.
lolI'm pretty sure you just made some1 foam at the mouth
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On April 07 2012 04:38 setzer wrote:
Lol okay so there are 5 people who can regularly compete with the top50 Koreans and that somehow means the skill level between the Korean scene and foreign scene is similar?
It means the Korean scene is so much bigger that they can field 50 players who dedicate the same time, effort, and structured practice as the five foreigners who do the same.
Where are the up-and-coming foreign players?
Why have the top Koreans always been in a state of flux, whereas the top foreigners are the same people they were in Beta?
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I was about to post this reply in another thread but it closed. Seems like this thread is better, so here it is in it's c&p glory.
Most foreigners are able to get by on personality alone and become very marketable. Think of people like Incontrol. People don't watch Destiny or Catz or Dragon because they are Starcraft Gods, they watch them because they are entertaining. Which is what they are selling, entertainment. It's much easier to stand out in an assembly of aluminum robots when you have a golden face.Perhaps some foreigners are becoming complicit and reaching their own plateau when they realize you can get by with subpar practice regimes while still making money. Whereas in Korean the competition is extremely fierce, forcing you to practice 12+ days just to stay with the local competition.
Or perhaps it would be better to compare Starcraft to another industry. Such as the Hollywood Machine vs cinema from other countries. What attributes make Hollywood/LA the premiere geographical location to both write, finance, cast, film, and edit a movie or create a TV show? It has ideal weather for shooting. A supportive local government (getting permits to film, closing roads, etc). Most importantly, it has a very large specialized labor pool ranging from actors to prop makers to writers to cinematographers to editors to anything you need. Sure there are certain production companies, notably Peter Jackson or George Lucas, that are able to produce content on their own in different countries/states; but these are the anomalies not the norms. The fact is, if you want to make it in the entertainment industry 999,999,999 out of 1,000,000,000 you need to move to LA.
The analogy to Starcraft is that Seoul has the infrastructure and sufficiently sized talent pool attributing to its success as the capital of SC. If you want to become better at SC on a professional level, you move to Korea. Which is why HuK, NaNiwa, and Idra practice there. Of course you have people like Stephano, but he is an anomaly.
The same question can be ask of Silicon Valley or Wall Street or The Triangle or Scotland Yard.
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On April 07 2012 04:38 Angel_ wrote:
you arent even staying consistent to your own argument at this point. it's your own fucking example. and your second section doesn't even make sense.
I'm perfectly consistent. Most foreigners get a paycheck that's worth less than a team house. And the ones that get a big paycheck have put in a huge amount of time and effort.
The lie that "foreigners get paid more for less work" is complete bullshit.
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Of the millions of copies of Starcraft sold, nearly HALF were sold in Korea. For every Huk there are 10 or more Korean players as good or better. The 12-year history of e-sports there has fostered the highest level of competition possible in an extremely concentrated region. Add to this a culture that has developed a near-obsession with accomplishment through hard work (think of the educational system) and you get an environment incomparable to any other.
The End
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Go go Scarlett 
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On April 07 2012 05:07 rift wrote:
Of the millions of copies of Starcraft sold, nearly HALF were sold in Korea. For every Huk there are 10 or more Korean players as good or better. The 12-year history of e-sports there has fostered the highest level of competition possible in an extremely concentrated region. Add to this a culture that has developed a near-obsession with accomplishment through hard work (think of the educational system) and you get an environment incomparable to any other.
The End
Pretty much my thoughts exactly.
Also, we haven't seen the best of the best in regards to RTS enter the Starcraft 2 world yet such as JD, Bisu, Flash, Stork and all the other top BW pros which is when this conversation of foreigners and the skill gap will really show it's true colors.
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There's probably a hundred super good guys in Korea that we never heard of, plus the average skill level is definitively higher there.
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On April 07 2012 05:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:38 Angel_ wrote:
you arent even staying consistent to your own argument at this point. it's your own fucking example. and your second section doesn't even make sense.
I'm perfectly consistent. Most foreigners get a paycheck that's worth less than a team house. And the ones that get a big paycheck have put in a huge amount of time and effort. The lie that "foreigners get paid more for less work" is complete bullshit.
You have no idea so I hope you stop making yourself look like an idiot. 90% of foreigners are lazy and dont practice as much as koreans. Plain and simple as to why koreans are better. So please move along.
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There's a bunch of skill gaps.
People like huk and stephano may be nipping at top korean heels, but the vast majority of the foreign pro scene is still being left completely in the dust.
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I wonder what Koreans would think if they knew you guys refer to people from your own countries as foreigners. They would probably think what a bunch of retards the non Korean SC community is.
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On April 07 2012 04:38 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 04:09 Mr Showtime wrote:On April 07 2012 00:17 jj33 wrote:On April 07 2012 00:04 Mr Showtime wrote:
There's a handful of Koreans at the very top that nobody can compete with on a regular basis, but in general, the top foreigners can compete with the top Koreans now. top foreigners can't even make code A. so your statement is not true. Stephano and huk / naniwa can take series off top Koreans, but others have shown jack nothing. so if you mean by top foreigners by those three I mentioned sure. but koreans have like 12312321 players and up and comers you've never heard of. Please show me the long list of foreigners who dedicate their career to making it in GSL. Nobody does. The top foreigners are defeating the top level Koreans (with exception to the few at the very top) regularly enough that the skill level seems similar. Lol okay so there are 5 people who can regularly compete with the top50 Koreans and that somehow means the skill level between the Korean scene and foreign scene is similar?
Nobody made that claim. You should read first. There's far more than 5 foreigners that can compete. Do some research, and stop making ignorant claims.
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On April 07 2012 05:39 Swift118 wrote:
I wonder what Koreans would think if they knew you guys refer to people from your own countries as foreigners. They would probably think what a bunch of retards the non Korean SC community is.
its only natural, modern starcraft esports we have now originated from korea and serious foreigners went to korea to play (grr, smuft, elky, idra, etc.). i'm not sure why you think non-koreans being called foreigners is a bad thing.
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EPT
