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On April 07 2012 02:53 Rulker wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 02:48 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:41 Canucklehead wrote:On April 07 2012 02:39 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:34 Legatus wrote:On April 07 2012 02:14 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:10 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:08 Wildmoon wrote:On April 07 2012 02:02 Jisall wrote:
[quote]
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose. That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now. It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game. one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now? I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier. Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful? Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better. Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves? I didn't answer this because it is an exaggeration. Obviously a bronze player has less skill then a GM player. But if your trying to compare GM players to koreans and Bronze players to Foreigners, that is a stretch. Try responding on why the factors i posted in my post don't matter at all and the skill difference is purely psyhchological.
It's a strategy game. In top level's everyone's skills are very similar. What makes the difference is the decision making and mental state.
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On April 07 2012 02:44 Doso wrote:
Thing is, for every top-foreigner there are like 5-10 top-koreans with the same skill level that are practicing against each other in a good training environment.
This is the answer right here.
The problem isn't one of skill, it's one of depth.
I love the foreign scene dearly, but they don't have enough top players right now, and they don't seem to be generating any new players. It's always the same people. Whereas in Korea they have this kind of player creation factory. It's obviously much easier for them because they have so many more people in a small geographic area who are all trying to climb to the top.
Do this exercise. Take the top foreigners in SC2 (the ones who won tournaments or went deep) from the whole time SC2 has been out. So you'd have Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, Idra, Jinro, maybe players like Morrow, White-Ra of course, you all know the list better than I do. Maybe you end up with 10 or so players at maximum.
Now, take 10 Koreans, randomly, out of all the Koreans who have ever been on stage playing professionally in SC2.
Run back the clock and pretend that these Koreans are in fact foreigners (this is ignoring the advantage Koreans have with their training houses, having training houses for longer, better coaches, SCBW legacy of practice, whatever). Just pretend that these 10 Koreans are "foreigners", even though they aren't, and follow how well they do.
What would their careers be like? Out of 10 random Koreans, you'd probably have 2 or 3 that are still dominant today. You'd have some FruitDealers and BitByBits who are nowhere today. And you'd have a bunch of middling players who still today struggle in Code B, but maybe do well in the odd foreign tournament. In other words, you'd have something that looks kind of like the foreign scene, except probably a little bit better depending on how the random draw went.
What I'm saying (I'm sorry I'm not explaining it more clearly) is that the Korean scene has so many players that it doesn't matter that the majority of them won't ever find any success on the stage. The foreign player community, as others have said, seems to be all the same names. These 10 or so foreign players are all we have who take the game seriously and play it professionally and dedicate themselves to practice. In fact, if you take moving to Korea and playing in a Korean team house as the ultimate in dedication, there really were only two people who have done this consistently: Huk and Jinro. Out of those two, one is still doing well and the other did well at first but fell off.
Pick two Korean pro players at random. Wouldn't you likely find that, on average, you'd pick one that is still doing okay and another that did well at first and then fell off?
I think the answer is to improve the grassroots foreign scene and have more tournaments like the Blizzard World events, where more people can make a living at SC2 at the national level. If we get more new players, a lot more, the odds are that some will be able to rise to the top.
TL;DR: Korean players dominate not just because of skill but because the Korean scene produces an order of magnitude more professional players, and continues to produce new ones, whereas this doesn't happen (yet) in the foreign scene.
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On April 07 2012 02:57 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 02:53 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:39 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:34 Legatus wrote:On April 07 2012 02:14 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:10 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:08 Wildmoon wrote:On April 07 2012 02:02 Jisall wrote:
[quote]
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose. That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now. It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game. one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now? I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier. Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful? Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better. and why do they believe that in the first place? + Show Spoiler [Answer] +Because koreans are better Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact. Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man.
Your missing my point.
I'm saying that the reason for what you are talking about is because foreigners have a mental barrier.
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On April 07 2012 02:59 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 02:42 Rulker wrote:On April 07 2012 02:26 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:18 Canucklehead wrote:On April 07 2012 02:10 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:08 Wildmoon wrote:On April 07 2012 02:02 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 01:52 Canucklehead wrote:On April 07 2012 01:50 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote:
[quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you. Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality. My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose. That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now. It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game. No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse. Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell. I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across. The reason Koreans are better are for multiple reasons. 1. The average work ethic of a korean pro-gamer is higher then that of a foreigner, 12-16 hour practice days(16 on the high end for a brood war player), versus 6 to 8, with a few foreigners in the korean practice range. 2. Starcraft 2's metagame evolves and shifts IN KOREA, with few exceptions, builds are developed and countered and figured out there before anywhere else in the world, so they are able to take more out of games and play better styles before foreigners get wind of it. 3.Kpop + Show Spoiler +4. Korean players actually work as a team and do coaching and have people that analyze oponents play. I'm sure their are more reasons but this is basically it. Koreans on average have much better mechanics then foreigners- the peak of foreign mechanics are Stephano and MajOr, the peak of Korean mechanics are MMA and forGG (just a few examples)- they are faster and better palyers mechanically, their foundations are stronger, they never miss any production, you'll see PERFECT, absolutely PERFECT mechanics when the broodwar pros, specifically Jaedong, switch over. Their may be a mental block when players play against koreans, but its more a tangible difference in skill between foreigners and Koreans I don't listen to Kpop, but I'll concede to you on that lol. Stephano doesn't follow the Korean model of practicing, he practices for around 4-6 hours a day. That would be my counter-point to your first point. Using Stephano again, his mass ling did not start in Korea. The meta-game revolves around Korea because people believe Koreans to be the best, so they have to learn what Koreans do in order to compete. Its again this psychological barrier. Foriegners have teams and team houses as well.
Stephano lost in the first round of Blizzard cup, winning vs Hero when hero had nerve issues and was code b and winning a ZvZ vs dongraegu, which is self explanatory.
Stephano is probably Code A level, but cant take tip top koreans (and no that isnt psychological).
Stehpanos ZvP style ill give you, but nearly every other build (not including beta builds) is Korean, even the refined versions of builds.
Foreigner team houses never seem to be full with palyers because of all the tournaments they have to attend, AND, they don't have coaches or people who analyze gameplay FOR THEM like korean pro housees do.
checkmate
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Nope, I feel like the koreans skill moved much quicker than the foreigner skill.
We see top foreigners losing to b-teamers and not many known koreans.
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On April 07 2012 02:54 Canucklehead wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 02:48 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:41 Canucklehead wrote:On April 07 2012 02:39 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:34 Legatus wrote:On April 07 2012 02:14 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:10 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:08 Wildmoon wrote:On April 07 2012 02:02 Jisall wrote:
[quote]
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose. That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now. It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game. one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now? I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier. Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful? Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better. Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves? I didn't answer this because it is an exaggeration. Obviously a bronze player has less skill then a GM player. But if your trying to compare GM players to koreans and Bronze players to Foreigners, that is a stretch. Yeah, I'm not comparing foreigners to bronze, but I believe koreans are on a diff tier. To simplify, if foreigners are GM level, then I believe Koreans are on a tier above GM, but that gap is not as big as GM to bronze, but there is still a gap nonetheless.
Your attributing the gap to skill while i attribute it to psycological reasons.
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On April 07 2012 02:59 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 02:42 Rulker wrote:On April 07 2012 02:26 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:18 Canucklehead wrote:On April 07 2012 02:10 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:08 Wildmoon wrote:On April 07 2012 02:02 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 01:52 Canucklehead wrote:On April 07 2012 01:50 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote:
[quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you. Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality. My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose. That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now. It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game. No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse. Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell. I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across. The reason Koreans are better are for multiple reasons. 1. The average work ethic of a korean pro-gamer is higher then that of a foreigner, 12-16 hour practice days(16 on the high end for a brood war player), versus 6 to 8, with a few foreigners in the korean practice range. 2. Starcraft 2's metagame evolves and shifts IN KOREA, with few exceptions, builds are developed and countered and figured out there before anywhere else in the world, so they are able to take more out of games and play better styles before foreigners get wind of it. 3.Kpop + Show Spoiler +4. Korean players actually work as a team and do coaching and have people that analyze oponents play. I'm sure their are more reasons but this is basically it. Koreans on average have much better mechanics then foreigners- the peak of foreign mechanics are Stephano and MajOr, the peak of Korean mechanics are MMA and forGG (just a few examples)- they are faster and better palyers mechanically, their foundations are stronger, they never miss any production, you'll see PERFECT, absolutely PERFECT mechanics when the broodwar pros, specifically Jaedong, switch over. Their may be a mental block when players play against koreans, but its more a tangible difference in skill between foreigners and Koreans I don't listen to Kpop, but I'll concede to you on that lol. Stephano doesn't follow the Korean model of practicing, he practices for around 4-6 hours a day. That would be my counter-point to your first point. Using Stephano again, his mass ling did not start in Korea. The meta-game revolves around Korea because people believe Koreans to be the best, so they have to learn what Koreans do in order to compete. Its again this psychological barrier. Foriegners have teams and team houses as well.
Stephano is also not top Korean Talent. He may be the best foreigner but that's like being the fastest fat kid. If he is only practicing 4-6 hours a day (which I HIGHLY doubt), he better get his ass in gear and start practicing more. Because he sure as hell isn't Leenock, NesTea or DRG.
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On April 07 2012 03:04 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 02:57 SupLilSon wrote:On April 07 2012 02:53 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:39 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:34 Legatus wrote:On April 07 2012 02:14 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:10 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:08 Wildmoon wrote:
[quote]
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now. It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game. one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now? I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier. Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful? Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better. and why do they believe that in the first place? + Show Spoiler [Answer] +Because koreans are better Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact. Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man. Your missing my point. I'm saying that the reason for what you are talking about is because foreigners have a mental barrier.
And we are saying it's because their is a tangible difference in Korean and Foreigner skill- go watch PoVs and look at build orders and look at total wins and look at how much koreans play and you see a clear rift.
The fact that koreans practice more isn't "psychological", its called work ethic.
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the mentality isnt even i cant beat koreans. it is i am going to have a hard time beating a player that is better than me. If i had to play ret i would be like well im pretty much fucked because he is way better but i would feel more confident against lets say revival because I am closer to his level of skill. It is nothing to do with korean or non korean. The only mental assumption that has to do with a korean player is "well he is in a pro team house so he is probably more skilled than the average foreinger" which is a logical and often correct assumption anyways. practice makes you more skilled and better. MORE PRACTICE WITH BETTER PLAYERS! thats what it is.
The menality only comes into play when the have a similar level. Axslav has a better mindset than idra but idra is better because he is more skilled. Clicking buttons quickly and accurately is a skill.
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In short, nope.
And it will only get worse when S class BW players are switching over.
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On April 07 2012 03:04 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 02:57 SupLilSon wrote:On April 07 2012 02:53 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:39 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:34 Legatus wrote:On April 07 2012 02:14 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:10 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:08 Wildmoon wrote:
[quote]
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now. It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game. one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now? I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier. Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful? Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better. and why do they believe that in the first place? + Show Spoiler [Answer] +Because koreans are better Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact. Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man. Your missing my point. I'm saying that the reason for what you are talking about is because foreigners have a mental barrier.
You're missing our point though. At the inception of SC2, it was seen as the great equalizer coming from BW. Finally there was a game that minimized mechanics enough that foreigners can compete with Koreans. Early in SC2 we saw foreigners having tons of success. Players like TLO were beating BoxeR. IdrA and Ret were seen as a huge foreign powerhouses who could take on the GSL. There wasn't a mental barrier. People thought that the time had finally come for foreigners to compete on equal footing with Koreans. Then something magical happened and Koreans started owning foreigners. That magical thing was practice regiment and professionalism and dedication. Not some mental barrier. SC2 is no different than any other sport. Those who put in the time and effort will reap the benefits. Those who don't will always be second place.
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On April 07 2012 02:59 Jisall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 02:42 Rulker wrote:On April 07 2012 02:26 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:18 Canucklehead wrote:On April 07 2012 02:10 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:08 Wildmoon wrote:On April 07 2012 02:02 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 01:52 Canucklehead wrote:On April 07 2012 01:50 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote:
[quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you. Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality. My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose. That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now. It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game. No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse. Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell. I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across. The reason Koreans are better are for multiple reasons. 1. The average work ethic of a korean pro-gamer is higher then that of a foreigner, 12-16 hour practice days(16 on the high end for a brood war player), versus 6 to 8, with a few foreigners in the korean practice range. 2. Starcraft 2's metagame evolves and shifts IN KOREA, with few exceptions, builds are developed and countered and figured out there before anywhere else in the world, so they are able to take more out of games and play better styles before foreigners get wind of it. 3.Kpop + Show Spoiler +4. Korean players actually work as a team and do coaching and have people that analyze oponents play. I'm sure their are more reasons but this is basically it. Koreans on average have much better mechanics then foreigners- the peak of foreign mechanics are Stephano and MajOr, the peak of Korean mechanics are MMA and forGG (just a few examples)- they are faster and better palyers mechanically, their foundations are stronger, they never miss any production, you'll see PERFECT, absolutely PERFECT mechanics when the broodwar pros, specifically Jaedong, switch over. Their may be a mental block when players play against koreans, but its more a tangible difference in skill between foreigners and Koreans I don't listen to Kpop, but I'll concede to you on that lol. Stephano doesn't follow the Korean model of practicing, he practices for around 4-6 hours a day. That would be my counter-point to your first point. Using Stephano again, his mass ling did not start in Korea. The meta-game revolves around Korea because people believe Koreans to be the best, so they have to learn what Koreans do in order to compete. Its again this psychological barrier. Foriegners have teams and team houses as well.
yes, you don't have to train like korean to be good. Korean is still better at this game anyway. It's not about mindset but the result they put out.
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Many people confuse top korean with average korean when they said top foriegners can compete with top korean. Stephano vs Polt is very close match up but you know what Polt was not able to qualify for Code S at that time.
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On April 07 2012 02:57 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 02:53 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:39 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:34 Legatus wrote:On April 07 2012 02:14 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:10 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:08 Wildmoon wrote:On April 07 2012 02:02 Jisall wrote:
[quote]
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose. That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now. It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game. one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now? I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier. Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful? Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better. and why do they believe that in the first place? + Show Spoiler [Answer] +Because koreans are better Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact. Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man.
Just need them Malaysian pro players :D to show Europeans where they are going wrong..... oh wait there are no pros from that part of the World..... shame
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On April 07 2012 03:17 Swift118 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 02:57 SupLilSon wrote:On April 07 2012 02:53 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:44 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:39 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:34 Legatus wrote:On April 07 2012 02:14 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:13 BLinD-RawR wrote:On April 07 2012 02:10 Jisall wrote:On April 07 2012 02:08 Wildmoon wrote:
[quote]
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now. It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game. one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now? I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier. Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful? Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better. and why do they believe that in the first place? + Show Spoiler [Answer] +Because koreans are better Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact. Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man. Just need them Malaysian pro players :D to show Europeans where they are going wrong..... oh wait there are no pros from that part of the World..... shame
I don't see how that's relevant. But if you want to play that game, UK is where it's at you guys have what 2 Pros? Who have combined for around 0 big tournament wins? Also don't forget that a large portion of Malaysia's population is too poor to have time wasted on playing games. Also I'm not even from malaysia =_= I just have a lot of family there..
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On April 06 2012 17:23 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:10 00 wrote:Nigger please, check the 2012 premier tournament results: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RyMy4.jpg) Was that necessary?
Necessary: no.
Accurate?: yes.
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On April 07 2012 03:29 galtdunn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:23 mrtomjones wrote:On April 06 2012 17:10 00 wrote:Nigger please, check the 2012 premier tournament results: Was that necessary? Necessary: no. Accurate?: yes.
This has nothing to do with my point.
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kinda strange OP title, implying that the skill gap is slimming? I don't think it's even close. The very best foreigners wouldn't/don't even survive code A.
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On April 07 2012 03:39 speknek wrote:
kinda strange OP title, implying that the skill gap is slimming? I don't think it's even close. The very best foreigners wouldn't/don't even survive code A.
This is the bottom line. Until a foreigner makes it into code S the legitimate way, I think it's safe to assume there's a massive gap.
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On April 06 2012 17:20 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote:
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no. Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large. The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
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