If you had asked me this over the recent winter break I might have told you it had already happened. Players like Stephano were proving that it was possible to stand up to top Korean pros and actually come out ahead. As the 2012 season began, top Koreans continued to fall. DeMuslim and Naniwa defeated NesTea and even Korean pros seemed to believe the foreign scene was catching up. But I am sitting here in anticipation of IPL 4 and as I scroll through the list of players it has suddenly dawned on me that I may have been kidding myself. It appears that only in the best of scenarios will we see more than a few foreigners in the top 25. It is even conceivable that Koreans could take 35 out of the top 40 positions and that is by no means a convincing argument for a level playing field between Koreans and foreigners. I have heard so much talk about who will place where and people are far to generous to their favorite foreign players. As was pointed out in a particularly entertaining TeamLiquid post "Wanna bet on it?" by Tree.hugger and Waxangel, anyone who is a true betting man would not go anywhere near those foreigner odds. Koreans, in my opinion, still have the advantage, but there are many who would say otherwise.
NesTea recently stated in an episode of State of the Game that he believed there was little difference between the skill levels of foreign and Korean players. This may have simply been a selfish rationalization due to the fact that he has been losing to foreigners. Either way, IPL 4 will be the biggest test of foreign skill and mental fortitude yet to date. Most other events held outside of Korea where foreigners meet Koreans head to head showcase only top Korean pros. In attendance at IPL 4 will be the top players in the world as well as a large number of up-and-comers. A larger player pool will allow for a much better test of foreign skill and, frankly, I am not very hopeful.
Foreign teams and players have skyrocketed onto the StarCraft 2 scene proving beyond a doubt that they are able to compete at the highest level. The issue has been consistency. No player, Korean or foreign, seems able to stay dominant for more than a few months at a time, but at the end of the day the worst players on any Korean team always have a shot at beating the top players on any foreign team. I hope to be proven wrong as IPL 4 gets rolling. I will gladly eat my words if at the end of the day 10 of the top 20 are foreigners.
My biggest issue with jumping the gun on declaring Koreans and foreigners equal is that I’m not ready to give up the underdog title. On the one hand I look forward to a day when we can let this semi-racist discussion die once and for all and just unite under the glorious banner that is e-Sports. But a big part of me loves to watch my friends jump out of their seats and dry hump the air in celebration of a foreigner win (not entirely sure what that says about me, guess I'm still working it out). Foreign players still have a lot to prove. Teams are improving and the industry is booming so this is no time to give up on the biggest rivalry in e-Sports. The competition is cutthroat yet respectful; antagonistic but honorable. We have a good thing going here and the end, much to many people’s chagrin, is nowhere in sight.
Not really, tbh I feel it's gotten even higher almost. I don't see very many foreigners making upsets (but I do expect a few) at IPL4.
I don't see foreigners catching up to korean skill in who knows how long, just might never happen like bw but I do think we will always have foreigners who will be able to compete with the koreans just not to many imo. But boy would I love to be proven wrong
Some of the very top foreigner players have the ability to take a series of koreans, but until you see most foreigners consitently placing as high in GSL as koreans you can't say there isn't a skill gap between the two groups of players.
Other than Huk, Stephano, Naniwa, Thorzain, Ret, Socke and sometimes Idra or Sase I can't think of anyone who compares to thew Koreans and sadly none of them have ever compared to whomever the top Korean is...so no not yet. Maybe someday...
People are too quick to judge or condemn a player or players after 1 victory or 1 tournament.
No I don't think they've caught up, just look at how Korean heavy top positions are in recent tournaments, I'm pretty sure IPL4 will be the same story. There is maybe 1-3 foreigners who can compete with top Koreans, but thats it. That in no way means Foreigner skill has caught up.
I still feel Koreans are way higher... Nestea's comment was probably generous, not selfish.
Even if foreigners do well at IPL4, the fact that foreigners usually do horrible in the GSL (can't even get into Code A or stay there for more than 1 season) doesn't help support that foreigners have caught up. Though, perhaps it is simply that there is a big difference in the location of the competition; koreans in foreign places will feel less comfortable and vice versa.
You appear to have no grasp of reality, Caephus. Koreans are at least one order of magnitude better than foreigners in terms of training mentality, which means that they'll only continue to pull ahead as time goes on.
Aside from Stephano and maybe ThorZaIN and Ret, the only foreigners who can consistently compete at the same level as Koreans (HuK and NaNiwa) train in Korea.
Very good quality first post, welcome to TeamLiquid I honestly believe many foreigners have the potential to be as good as Koreans. Notice how I said potential? The reason for that is simply because Koreans practices A LOT more than 99% of foreigner pros. Practice makes perfect as the old adage would say. Stephano only practicing 3-4 hours a day and beating top tier Code S players shows this.
I'm by no means a Stephano fanboy but realistically, could you imagine the beast that would be awoken if Stephano played as much as the Korean pro players?
TL&DR Koreans practice a lot more than Foreigners.
If you ask any top koreans, they would probably say, "nah, there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top koreans.", but in general, the gap is getting bigger. However, foreign players like Huk and Naniwa are still able to compete against top koreans and get good results and sometimes upsets happened like Socke did in MLG, so there won't be a point where top 10 MLG are all koreans.
And don't forget that ThorZain can all-kill any korean team if they ain't careful.
The form of preparation for tournaments could be one of the contributing factors of higher foreigner success in foreign tournaments:
- GSL you have several days to prepare for your opponents (research + practice the matchup + strategise) - Foreign tournaments (except NASL and some minor others) give you practically no time to practice against a specific opponent.
Perhaps Koreans are just better practicing against certain opponents?
Anyone who pays attention to the scene a little bit should know that the skill gap is still there, if not growing. I guarantee that Nestea was being generous rather than selfish. Many korean pros say that foreigner skill is close to if not at the level of the koreans. If this were the case then you would see WAAAAY more foreign victories than we do. Korean gamers are just nice people and don't like to call people out like Idra and people of his ilk.
Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
Edit-My post was bad. No I think the best koreans are alittle bit better than the best foreigners. But korea has so many better players than forgeiners if that makes sense? When few of the forgieners manage to beat a korean they are considered one of the best foreigners. Just my opinion
On April 06 2012 16:58 NoctemSC wrote: Very good quality first post, welcome to TeamLiquid I honestly believe many foreigners have the potential to be as good as Koreans. Notice how I said potential? The reason for that is simply because Koreans practices A LOT more than 99% of foreigner pros. Practice makes perfect as the old adage would say. Stephano only practicing 3-4 hours a day and beating top tier Code S players shows this.
I'm by no means a Stephano fanboy but realistically, could you imagine the beast that would be awoken if Stephano played as much as the Korean pro players?
TL&DR Koreans practice a lot more than Foreigners.
1. He practices more than that. Don't kid yourself. Also, way to go Stephano for starting this stupid rumor. He has said in numerous interviews that practically all he does is play Starcraft. He says he doesn't have any other hobbies except working out sometimes and eating. Either he has very short days or his practice regiment lasts a bit longer than 3 hours.
2. Stephano has looked extremely mortal lately, especially considering his poor MLG and Iron Squid tournaments. Not really sure how he stacks up to top tier koreans, as he hasn't played very many of them recently (when he does, he usually loses).
3. Diminishing returns. An extra hour of practice has a much larger impact on results going from 4 to 5 hours than from 12 to 13. In fact, many koreans probably practice too much. Stress and frustration, as well as the tunnel vision that results from long practice sessions, can have a negative impact on results.
There isn't a single relevant foreign T. Kas and Thorzain are at least 1 or 2 orders magnitude worse than the top Korean T.
The only somewhat competent player is Stephano. But he's never been forced to play GSL, where playing the same 2-3 builds is the fastest way to get figured out and knocked out.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
In general, most Koreans are still better than most foreigners.
However, the skill gap is still much smaller than what it had been in BW right before the SC2 beta. Back then, even dominant foreigners like Idra struggled against even B-teamers of major teams, and no one except for a few wild-card Chinese players could even comprehend taking a single game off of a decent A-teamer.
SC2 hasn't reached that point yet, but it has the potential. Foreigners actually were somewhat competitive for a while during the early years of BW history, though there just weren't as many events aside from WCG for them to compete against Koreans compared to what we currently have in the SC2 scene. There was the AMD/Hexatron team that actively tried to bring progamers like Rekrul, Elky, and Nazgul to compete in Korea. Foreign players could take games off of Koreans in the early WCGs.
i agree with kennigit. also using the IPL as an example of how the foreigner scene is doing is just wrong. besides a few top Europeans they are ALL at copenhagen games and the gathering this weekend, not at IPL.
On April 06 2012 17:16 aFganFlyTrap wrote: i agree with kennigit. also using the IPL as an example of how the foreigner scene is doing is just wrong. besides a few top Europeans they are ALL at copenhagen games and the gathering this weekend, not at IPL.
Can you name the ones that you think would have a chance at winning IPL4? Because there are more than a dozen koreans in attendance that I wouldn't be too surprised to take it, and there are even more that aren't attending.
On April 06 2012 17:14 eviltomahawk wrote: In general, most Koreans are still better than most foreigners.
However, the skill gap is still much smaller than what it had been in BW right before the SC2 beta. Back then, even dominant foreigners like Idra struggled against even B-teamers of major teams, and no one except for a few wild-card Chinese players could even comprehend taking a single game off of a decent A-teamer.
SC2 hasn't reached that point yet, but it has the potential. Foreigners actually were somewhat competitive for a while during the early years of BW history, though there just weren't as many events aside from WCG for them to compete against Koreans compared to what we currently have in the SC2 scene. There was the AMD/Hexatron team that actively tried to bring progamers like Rekrul, Elky, and Nazgul to compete in Korea. Foreign players could take games off of Koreans in the early WCGs.
The gap right nowis smaller not only because of state of the scene (most top progamers playing BW), but also because of the volatile nature of the game. Grrrr and Elky were outliers; they were successful before the heavy practice regimen became standard.
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
Hey now, I love HuK and am in no way a fan of Stephano, but HuK has sadly never beaten Stephano in a tournament game (to my knowledge atleast, I believe HuK is 0-4 against Stephano) and I doubt they have played on the ladder much. That being said, HuK is also 1-2 against Artosis' Zerg in tournament games...
Sadly, at the moment, Koreans are still too far away. In my opinion there are several reasons for that. Firstly, Korea is a single country, and it has almost as many players as the whole Europe server. That is a huge advantage for the Koreans, as there's a larger player pool, who all speak the same language. If any country in Europe had the same amount of people playing, Koreans wouldn't be impossible to defeat. Secondly, there's the cultural difference. As I've heard(I'm not sure), Koreans may practice for 10+ hours, which is crazy. This may be like that because of the parents who force their children to get to top universities, without caring about their emotions and/or childhood. If we take a look at CS 1.6, it has a large player pool in Europe among several countries, which hasn't completely made it uneven for other countries(ofc Sweden's imba there, just because it is/was so popular there). Right now, the only problem with Koreans vs International scene is, in my opinion, the player pool. If all countries would have that large proportion of players as Korea, there wouldn't a country whose metagame is too far ahead of others.
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
Hey now, I love HuK and am in no way a fan of Stephano, but HuK has sadly never beaten Stephano in a tournament game (to my knowledge atleast, I believe HuK is 0-4 against Stephano) and I doubt they have played on the ladder much. That being said, HuK is also 1-2 against Artosis' Zerg in tournament games...
Koreans fighting!
I dont think he was saying Huk beats stephano. I think he meant to say that Stephano and ThorZain are examples of players like Huk that can beat Koreans. Just written a little confusing but I think this interpretation would make a little more sense
I dont think so, not yet. Koreans still seem to be dominant in terms of pulling all the way through a tourney and actually winning it, but I have felt like there is a trend towards more 'foreigners' advancing higher (semis etc) as time goes on. Cant wait to see what IPL4 will bring today :D
On April 06 2012 16:50 Teoita wrote: Some of the very top foreigner players have the ability to take a series of koreans, but until you see most foreigners consitently placing as high in GSL as koreans you can't say there isn't a skill gap between the two groups of players.
Basically this. We scrape by trying to keep 1 foreigner in GSL and thats mostly because of invites.
On April 06 2012 17:16 aFganFlyTrap wrote: i agree with kennigit. also using the IPL as an example of how the foreigner scene is doing is just wrong. besides a few top Europeans they are ALL at copenhagen games and the gathering this weekend, not at IPL.
Can you name the ones that you think would have a chance at winning IPL4? Because there are more than a dozen koreans in attendance that I wouldn't be too surprised to take it, and there are even more that aren't attending.
i dont think you understand my point -_-
but to humour you ill give you a list of player that are not attending IPL
happy kas cloud lucifron thorzain bratok titan nightend grubby snute morrow elfi turuk happyzerg and these are just SOME of the names as CPG and TG12 to name some more.
naniwa nerchio fraer mana biGs diestar strelok satiini socke darkforce beastqt lalush goody dbs tarson hasuobs xlord delphi feast naama (if you even DARE say "but none of them will win!" then you sir are an idiot and do not understand what we are actually talking about.)
you will never get 90% of europe and korea at 1 tournament to gauge how well both the scenes fair vs each other. thats why using tournaments like IPL to compare both the scenes is silly. sure you can speculate but dont use IPL as a reason to why your argument is correct.
Not really. Compare the best of foreigners vs the best of Koreans back in April 2011 for the Korea vs The World showmatch where we barely lost, it wouldn't be anywhere near that close today I feel.
Of course it hasn't. Not even close, and it never will either. There will only ever be a select few compare in any way but even they won't be at the top top level.
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
Hey now, I love HuK and am in no way a fan of Stephano, but HuK has sadly never beaten Stephano in a tournament game (to my knowledge atleast, I believe HuK is 0-4 against Stephano) and I doubt they have played on the ladder much. That being said, HuK is also 1-2 against Artosis' Zerg in tournament games...
Koreans fighting!
I dont think he was saying Huk beats stephano. I think he meant to say that Stephano and ThorZain are examples of players like Huk that can beat Koreans. Just written a little confusing but I think this interpretation would make a little more sense
Oh man you gosu English to English translator. Kamsahamnida~
If the player pool is 50% korean and 50% foreigners in any event... I'd bet my money a korean takes the entire tournament even if there are no seeds. If a tournament has 25% korean and 75% foreigners and no seeds, I'd still bet a korean to take the tournament. If a tournament has 25% korean and 75% foreigners with seeds favoring foreigners such as MLG providence then I'd still bet on a korean. So is there a skill gap between foreigners and koreans? Yes. How big? We'll see in IPL this week :D.
Considering that foreigners are better paid, sponsored, and have more tournaments to play, their results have been disappointing. It's an insult that Korean progamers who don't even have salaries manage to not work harder than us, but outperform us.
The best has yet to come for the Korean players. MVP was ranked top 30-40th in Broodwar at his ELO peak in the Hana Daetoo MSL AFAIK. There are about 40+ players who are above MVP's skill level still yet to play SC2.
Yes, we can make excuses of how Koreans get paid to play full-time back in the Broodwar days, but SC2 has turned a 180 to our favor and we still blow.
On April 06 2012 17:16 aFganFlyTrap wrote: i agree with kennigit. also using the IPL as an example of how the foreigner scene is doing is just wrong. besides a few top Europeans they are ALL at copenhagen games and the gathering this weekend, not at IPL.
Can you name the ones that you think would have a chance at winning IPL4? Because there are more than a dozen koreans in attendance that I wouldn't be too surprised to take it, and there are even more that aren't attending.
i dont think you understand my point -_-
but to humour you ill give you a list of player that are not attending IPL
happy kas cloud lucifron thorzain bratok titan nightend grubby snute morrow elfi turuk happyzerg and these are just SOME of the names as CPG and TG12 to name some more.
naniwa nerchio fraer mana biGs diestar strelok satiini socke darkforce beastqt lalush goody dbs tarson hasuobs xlord delphi feast naama (if you even DARE say "but none of them will win!" then you sir are an idiot and do not understand what we are actually talking about.)
you will never get 90% of europe and korea at 1 tournament to gauge how well both the scenes fair vs each other. thats why using tournaments like IPL to compare both the scenes is silly. sure you can speculate but dont use IPL as a reason to why your argument is correct.
Is that really a list of people you think could win IPL4 dude? Thorzain or Naniwa are the only ones who could even conceivably win it on that list... you also think Korea and Europe are equal? -_-
All the big tournaments minus Dreamhack are held in the US, this means that you will never have Europe and Korea at full force to see how each scene stacks up. Even with this I still believe that Korea are leaps and bounds ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to skill levels, yes there are a few outliers for the foreign scene like Stephano, Naniwa and Huk but the problem is that 2 of those 3 have been in Korea practicing. Korean's just have a far better attitude in terms of how much they practice and how they practice. With the Korean mentality I can see the skill gap only getting larger as time goes on, the same that happened in bw.
On April 06 2012 16:58 NoctemSC wrote: Very good quality first post, welcome to TeamLiquid I honestly believe many foreigners have the potential to be as good as Koreans. Notice how I said potential? The reason for that is simply because Koreans practices A LOT more than 99% of foreigner pros. Practice makes perfect as the old adage would say. Stephano only practicing 3-4 hours a day and beating top tier Code S players shows this.
I'm by no means a Stephano fanboy but realistically, could you imagine the beast that would be awoken if Stephano played as much as the Korean pro players?
TL&DR Koreans practice a lot more than Foreigners.
This! In my opinion it's the training enviroment and the amount of practice. Though I think that foreigners have the more creative strategies that might and does outlive Korean styles.
Eh? Is this a troll because the numbers of top Koreans players > top foreign players. Assume a tournament with half of Koreans and half of Foreigners who would win? Assume a team tournament such as the GSTL would Foreigners win? I think in about 5 years if sc2 is still kicking there will be a chance for foreginers.
On April 06 2012 17:16 aFganFlyTrap wrote: i agree with kennigit. also using the IPL as an example of how the foreigner scene is doing is just wrong. besides a few top Europeans they are ALL at copenhagen games and the gathering this weekend, not at IPL.
Can you name the ones that you think would have a chance at winning IPL4? Because there are more than a dozen koreans in attendance that I wouldn't be too surprised to take it, and there are even more that aren't attending.
i dont think you understand my point -_-
but to humour you ill give you a list of player that are not attending IPL
happy kas cloud lucifron thorzain bratok titan nightend grubby snute morrow elfi turuk happyzerg and these are just SOME of the names as CPG and TG12 to name some more.
naniwa nerchio fraer mana biGs diestar strelok satiini socke darkforce beastqt lalush goody dbs tarson hasuobs xlord delphi feast naama (if you even DARE say "but none of them will win!" then you sir are an idiot and do not understand what we are actually talking about.)
you will never get 90% of europe and korea at 1 tournament to gauge how well both the scenes fair vs each other. thats why using tournaments like IPL to compare both the scenes is silly. sure you can speculate but dont use IPL as a reason to why your argument is correct.
With the exception of 2, perhaps 3, players on that list, every single one of them would be chewed up and spit back out by the GSL prelims/code A in comprehensive fashion.
IPL4 will be the perfect situation to see how foreigners measure up. TONS of koreans, most of the top foreigners. If we get a lot of foreigners in the final bracket, sure, but I'm definitely not expecting it.
The biggest difference is that while we have a few players that could contend with the top Korean players, there are SO many Koreans that could thrash 99% of the foreign scene; there are just many more good Koreans, and they're improving much faster than foreigners.
Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2.
Do foreigners have the same practice conditions and work ethics as Koreans? No? Then no, they have not caught up to Koreans.
I don't know why there are so many threads about this issue. It's been established many times that there are no magical Starcraft genes that make Koreans innately better at the game. It boils down to how much time you put into an effective practice schedule. When foreigners practice as efficiently as Koreans then they will have caught up in skill level.
1. The best koreans(MKP, DRG, MMA etc.) 10-20 players, hard to determine who and how many in this group of koreaners that are better then any foreigner. 2. The best foreigners(Naniwa, Huk, ret, stephano). About 5 players, give or take a few. 3. The top koreans. Code A and code S quality players. 30+ players. Again, hard if not impossible to determine the exact amount but there are many koreans that are better then top foreigners. 4. The top foreigners. These are the players we like to watch in tournaments and beleive can do well. I would say all these are below the best 50 koreans. 5. Everyone else.
There is certainly a skill gap, However you look at the western scene and there is no where near the structure there is of korea. Imagine in Europe, America or SEA a properly structured - i guess you could say "Training scene". Having that would reduce the skill gap to nothing. Don't get me wrong the gap could be closed, its just until there are more houses and bootcamp style places in the west there is always going to be a skill gap.
On April 06 2012 17:16 aFganFlyTrap wrote: i agree with kennigit. also using the IPL as an example of how the foreigner scene is doing is just wrong. besides a few top Europeans they are ALL at copenhagen games and the gathering this weekend, not at IPL.
Can you name the ones that you think would have a chance at winning IPL4? Because there are more than a dozen koreans in attendance that I wouldn't be too surprised to take it, and there are even more that aren't attending.
i dont think you understand my point -_-
but to humour you ill give you a list of player that are not attending IPL
happy kas cloud lucifron thorzain bratok titan nightend grubby snute morrow elfi turuk happyzerg and these are just SOME of the names as CPG and TG12 to name some more.
naniwa nerchio fraer mana biGs diestar strelok satiini socke darkforce beastqt lalush goody dbs tarson hasuobs xlord delphi feast naama (if you even DARE say "but none of them will win!" then you sir are an idiot and do not understand what we are actually talking about.)
you will never get 90% of europe and korea at 1 tournament to gauge how well both the scenes fair vs each other. thats why using tournaments like IPL to compare both the scenes is silly. sure you can speculate but dont use IPL as a reason to why your argument is correct.
With the exception of 2, perhaps 3, players on that list, every single one of them would be chewed up and spit back out by the GSL prelims/code A in comprehensive fashion.
I am a huge EU players fan since I am pretty much emotionally invested in many of mentioned players due to my wc3 "origin" and agree with that. The absolute Top Koreans are out of reach, and as it stands now it´s gonna stay this way for quite some time. On the other hand I see potential from at least a hand full of players who should be able to reach a level where they could compete on the absolute highest level, including Top Koreans. But that´s just a (rather unreliable) estimation and should be taken with a grain of salt.
i actually have the exact opposite opinion... I think the Korean's are gaining a bigger gap between foreigners and themselves... There are about 10-20 foreigners in the world who can compete with the koreans, and in a bo7 i give about half of them a chance to make it... The only real results we ever see are even when koreans are playing at a disadvantage (traveling to other countries to compete [jet lag, out of practice for a few days, out of their elements, etc.]) and even then it seems to be a stomping. Foreigners are given free passes to Code S, just to be dropped in the first round like a bad habit.... If we sent the best foreigners in the world to play in the GSL, only about 5 of them might make it into Code S and after that I'd give 1-2 a chance to progress through the bracket... Obviously, I'm nobody important but that's just my opinion... Koreans play at top form in the GSL, they come to America to make some quick easy money, or else they wouldn't bother traveling...
They're also the ones innovating current metagame, developing new builds that evolve the game to what we play today.... They just seem to be one step ahead of everybody else.
Short Answer- No Long Answer- Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
(Viewers of Zero Punctuation should get that reference)
In all seriousness, There are maybe a handful of god-chosen children that can compete with Koreans in either a- Code A matches, or b- MLG/IPL style "sprint" tournaments that Koreans have no experience with. Within a year, Huk has been the only foreigner to prove himself at a GSL Code S Level consistently. You know how many other players there are in Code S? 31. One can make an argument for Naniwa, Stephano, or some few select others, but they serve as the exception that proves the korea>foreigners rule
As long as we'll be able to remember which foreigner beat which korean, or to celebrate each foreigner win over koreans, it'll mean that the skill gap is still here
On April 06 2012 17:53 THM wrote: Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2.
THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is
Is this trolling? You realize the BW pros will get stomped bad for quite awhile if they switch to SC2. You also realize they are not any better than the SC2 pro's other than they on average train longer and have better refined what they need to do to learn something. Look at winrates among the top players in both. Enjoy.
Not going to happen. Korea has a centralized location where virtually all SC is played competitively. They have the best team houses, generally great coaches, and other top tier players with similar mentalities. This simply won't happen in the foreign scene unless there is a massive move towards league centralization. If US teams for instance had a continual tournament in NY or LA or even somewhere more central like Dallas, then I could see the scene developing correctly. With events like MLG which are 1 weekend every month or so, there is no one place that foreign players consistently play against each other. As a result, preparation is less focused than the Koreans.
Lets say MLG settled down and started a GSL-style tournament with 6-8 weeks of groups, separate tiers of players (like Code B/A/S), and a fixed location that had the same casters running their show. Teams who were playing in that tournament would find houses in the same area as the tournament and all of the players would then have the advantage of proximity that Koreans currently enjoy. I can't possibly see foreigners achieving the same success without this...you might get prodigies like Stephano who just understand the game and can play at a high level but it won't be widespread. I don't know if this is even possible but it would be the best thing to happen to foreign SC if it did.
On April 06 2012 17:53 THM wrote: Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2.
THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is
Is this trolling? You realize the BW pros will get stomped bad for quite awhile if they switch to SC2. You also realize they are not any better than the SC2 pro's other than they on average train longer and have better refined what they need to do to learn something. Look at winrates among the top players in both. Enjoy.
On April 06 2012 17:53 THM wrote: Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2.
THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is
Is this trolling? You realize the BW pros will get stomped bad for quite awhile if they switch to SC2. You also realize they are not any better than the SC2 pro's other than they on average train longer and have better refined what they need to do to learn something. Look at winrates among the top players in both. Enjoy.
lol @ you. Not even going to bother addressing most of the fail in this as I am sure someone else will but I will let you know that BW players such as Jaedong have already started playing SC2 and they all have multiple Master league accounts (Korean server obviously).
No they haven't.. if anything the latest results show that Korea has (more than ever) the best practice environment, hence produces the best players. Huk and Naniwa are the best foreigners. They might be code S level or somewhere between code A and S. But they've lived in Korea for so long that I don't think they still represent the foreigner scene. Ret, Stephano and DeMulsim (and maybe a couple others depending on form and tournament style) are the best '100% foreigners' (as in 'not living in Korea'). They can compete with code A players and sometimes code S players on a good day, but can also lose to code-B level Koreans on any day. As you said IPL is going to give us great Korean vs Foreigner games (which I think we should call the KvF matchup ^^), but as far as the outcome go, I can't see any foreigners qualifying from the open bracket, and only Stephano has a chance to make it to the championship bracket (WhiteRa being is his group might help him in that sense).
The difference was once pretty small and it has gotten bigger ever since. Just because a few foreigners have had some success doesn't mean the skill gap is closing. Maybe you could argue that the very top foreigners have gotten closer but you'd be hardpressed to make such an argument. In the first gsl, we had several foreigners that could potentially make a decent run in the gsl, now we have between zero to at most 2 imo.
wtf is this thread seriously... OP clearly wanted to bait us to a flamefest.
I'd say there's more skill gap between Korean and rest of the World Starcraft 2 scenes than NBA and the rest of the world basketball leagues. It's somewhat comparable to NFL and other leagues.
On April 06 2012 17:53 THM wrote: Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2.
THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is
Is this trolling? You realize the BW pros will get stomped bad for quite awhile if they switch to SC2. You also realize they are not any better than the SC2 pro's other than they on average train longer and have better refined what they need to do to learn something. Look at winrates among the top players in both. Enjoy.
lol @ you. Not even going to bother addressing most of the fail in this as I am sure someone else will but I will let you know that BW players such as Jaedong have already started playing SC2 and they all have multiple Master league accounts (Korean server obviously).
"만약 병행이 된다면 선수들의 실력이 지금껏 스타2를 지켜봐온 마니아층에서 볼 땐 상당히 떨어져 보일 수도 있을 것이다. 1999년에 활동하던 선수들과 지금의 선수들은 실력 차가 크다. 하지만 크게 우려하지는 않는다. 조금만 지나면 금방 끌어올릴 수 있을 것이라 생각한다. GSL에서 활동 중인 선수들과 막 시작한 우리 선수들을 비교해보면 하늘과 땅 차이다. 하지만 경험의 차이는 금방 따라잡을 수 있을 것이라 생각한다."
Translation: Q: The skill gap between your players and original SC2 players looks quite large. A: If it happens (T/N: meaning SC2 in proleague) the play level will look very low compared to what fans are used to seeing now, just like there is a huge gap between BW players from 1999 and now. But I am not too worried, because we are confident we can upgrade our skill given a little bit of time. The difference in skill between GSL players and ours is like heaven and earth, but I think we can catch up quickly.
So yes, they will be stomped for a while when matched up with current SC2 pros. I think coach Ju knows better than you do.
Foreigners are performing very poorly in the GSL. It's been awhile since a foreigner even won a set there. We'll see if Naniwa can make up for his Blizzcon performance (and I'm not talking about his probe rush, I'm talking about going 0-3 before that).
In online and overseas tournaments the best foreigners can compete with the mid tier koreans and occasionally make upsets against the top tiers, but there are many factors there (lag for online tournaments, jet lag for overseas, etc).
Then again it's possible that it's just the format of the GSL. Koreans are known for practicing a lot, and that's basically how GSL matches are where you have a ton of time to practice and study your opponents. Other tournaments depend more on mechanics as you play many matches in a row (of course playing that many in a row, you're bound to lose a set to an inferior player).
I feel the gap is widening. As the time goes on the gap will get bigger and bigger between korean and foriegner. In the begining of SC2's scene foriegner were able to win some tournaments but now I don't think they will be able to. If I remember right Korean won almost all of tournaments in 2012 except Lonestarclash. The very best forienger can lose to some very low tier korean but mid tier korean hardly lose to low tier foriegner.
Personally I dont think that foreigners has really caught up with Korea skillwise, but the situation is by far better than it was in StarCraft:BroodWar. By far better.
Not really, I think it has gone further and further apart, the more we learn about the game the more the Koreans get ahead. Their practice is superior to the foreigners and when they practice together they grow even stronger.
no, but i think if we take top 10 foreigners, they can compete with top 10 koreans( not equally but i wont be surprised if foreigners won)... but KR has numbers on their side....
On April 06 2012 16:52 Bazzyrick wrote: People are too quick to judge or condemn a player or players after 1 victory or 1 tournament.
i mean basically this. the new power rank defines it correctly, who'd win in a hyper-long marathon series. someone taking a best of 5/7 means nothing really. sc2's comparable in some ways to MLB - at some point someone that'll end up with about 70 wins or something will take a three game series off the yankees or whoever has the most money is the best right now. doesn't mean they're actually better.
I only have to look at the TLPD rankings to the right of this page to tell me the truth. Stephano, Nerchio, HuK, Naniwa and LiverZerg vs. Taeja, MMA, MarineKing, DongRaeGu and Leenock. You tell me if that's equal. (Hint: It's not.)
Yeah, they can take the odd series from time to time, but there are probably less than 5 foreigners in the top 100 of the world.
I don't like the theory that it's just the practice environment. By all accounts, Violet, Real, Rain aren't anywhere close to being the best Koreans, yet they can still do extremely well in foreigner events. They live in the West, train in the West etc. They probably even have problems properly practicing because of language problems.
Not to say that practicing a lot doesn't help you, but I think there's also the fact that many of the top Koreans are simply more talented. Anyone who has any RTS talent in Korea takes a chance at becoming a pro, unlike here.
If foreigner skill caught up to Korean pros, we wouldn't be "worrying" about Korean pros. Korean pros wouldn't be clear favorites, and we would be worried about other foreigners. Since that is not the case, no.
In my opinion there are just three foreigners who might survive in Code S: Naniwa, Huk and Stephano. And I think these three are head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners. Ret and Thorzain might be Code A material, but otherwise the Koreans dominate everything.
On April 06 2012 19:38 karn1 wrote: In my opinion there are just three foreigners who might survive in Code S: Naniwa, Huk and Stephano. And I think these three are head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners. Ret and Thorzain might be Code A material, but otherwise the Koreans dominate everything.
On April 06 2012 19:38 karn1 wrote: In my opinion there are just three foreigners who might survive in Code S: Naniwa, Huk and Stephano. And I think these three are head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners. Ret and Thorzain might be Code A material, but otherwise the Koreans dominate everything.
On April 06 2012 19:38 karn1 wrote: In my opinion there are just three foreigners who might survive in Code S: Naniwa, Huk and Stephano. And I think these three are head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners. Ret and Thorzain might be Code A material, but otherwise the Koreans dominate everything.
Naniwa has yet to do anything in the GSL except losing every single of his code a games. Huk could posibly hang around the lower ends(Round of 32-16) imo. Stephano we will never know really.
On April 06 2012 17:16 aFganFlyTrap wrote: i agree with kennigit. also using the IPL as an example of how the foreigner scene is doing is just wrong. besides a few top Europeans they are ALL at copenhagen games and the gathering this weekend, not at IPL.
Can you name the ones that you think would have a chance at winning IPL4? Because there are more than a dozen koreans in attendance that I wouldn't be too surprised to take it, and there are even more that aren't attending.
i dont think you understand my point -_-
but to humour you ill give you a list of player that are not attending IPL
happy kas cloud lucifron thorzain bratok titan nightend grubby snute morrow elfi turuk happyzerg and these are just SOME of the names as CPG and TG12 to name some more.
naniwa nerchio fraer mana biGs diestar strelok satiini socke darkforce beastqt lalush goody dbs tarson hasuobs xlord delphi feast naama (if you even DARE say "but none of them will win!" then you sir are an idiot and do not understand what we are actually talking about.)
you will never get 90% of europe and korea at 1 tournament to gauge how well both the scenes fair vs each other. thats why using tournaments like IPL to compare both the scenes is silly. sure you can speculate but dont use IPL as a reason to why your argument is correct.
Is that really a list of people you think could win IPL4 dude? Thorzain or Naniwa are the only ones who could even conceivably win it on that list... you also think Korea and Europe are equal? -_-
On April 06 2012 19:38 karn1 wrote: In my opinion there are just three foreigners who might survive in Code S: Naniwa, Huk and Stephano. And I think these three are head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners. Ret and Thorzain might be Code A material, but otherwise the Koreans dominate everything.
Naniwa? Not too sure about that :S
nor Huk or Stephano.
HuK has stayed in code s for a while, he could had been in code s this session since he was placed highest in the up&down, but he got knocked down unfortunately
stephano could make to code S too, he has the potential definitely.
On April 06 2012 16:50 blade55555 wrote: Not really, tbh I feel it's gotten even higher almost. I don't see very many foreigners making upsets (but I do expect a few) at IPL4.
I don't see foreigners catching up to korean skill in who knows how long, just might never happen like bw but I do think we will always have foreigners who will be able to compete with the koreans just not to many imo. But boy would I love to be proven wrong
Totally agree. Really looking forward to this IPL and a few wins from foreigners would certainly be awesome to see.
why are so many not getting my point. yes the koreans are better but to measure how much better you would need all of the players plus more that i listed at one tournament and that just isnt going to happen! hence why i said judging how close the two scenes are on JUST the IPL the weekend is just fucking stupid.
On April 06 2012 19:00 Salteador Neo wrote: Only some of the protoss foreigners. In general I think it's the other way around, it was closer at the beginning.
On April 06 2012 19:33 Wildmoon wrote: Korean terran and foriegn Terran are on whole different world.
Agree, looked like Marine king at MLG was playing a whole different race altogether with some of his strats.
Agreed. His execution was also just insane. His absolutely phenomenal micro gives him a depth of options that other players, even among other korean terrans, just don't have. It also seems like he's not clearly dividing bio and mech strategies like a lot of other players have been doing, and oh wow does it look strong in his hands.
It's not even close. Korean ladder is much, much harder, any time a number of Koreans attend a foreign event they place top 3[all 3 top korean I mean] and some times with not even with their best talent there, and in a pool of like 1:5 ratio korean to foreign players.
Not to mention pretty much every foreign person who entered GSL failed miserably and only two had a slight moment of hope, then fell out to code B shortly after. Right now though with the foreign team houses coming into play and players taking it more serious, we're starting to see a select few people be able to really get closer and closer to really compete. I'll really love to look back in one year and see how things are then.
There are many many more Koreans at the top level. So I would say no, not when 90% of all Koreans attending MLG takes 90% of the top placements (does what I just wrote make any sense?) :o
Eh. The skill level in SC2 is difficult to measure, because there is not any sense of long term consistency for any single player that lasts more than a few months. (Examples: MVP, Nestea, MC, DRG, MKP, [b]Bomber[/b} - all of them have the skills and ability to beat the hell out of people, but they have also had down periods where they couldn't apply those skills effectively for a variety of reasons.)
I look at it differently - I think the basic skill level is about on par, with the Koreans still edging ahead. The ability to win by applying that raw skill is generally in the Koreans favor, though, because they have better focused practice and training, as well as the vast majority of foreigners staring at Korea to see what trends in game play are evolving rather than working on their own to evolve new tactics and strategies. The Koreans seem to be more innovative in terms of strategies and how to abuse maps/units while foreigners are following trends that the Koreans are setting.
Foreigners have an inferiority complex, I think - probably somewhat deserved, but something that they could overcome if they just stopped drawing a distinction between the two communities and started innovating and incorporating better training.
Of course, I could also be horribly wrong. But SC2 has a touch more randomness in individual matches than BW did, and is still very much a living game. On any given day, Thorzain could possibly beat MMA. Huk could possibly beat DRG. Naniwa can beat Nestea. Sheth can take down Polt. But over time? Players that train in Korea using Korean methods are going to get better faster. (I say that because some Koreans live and train elsewhere, and some foreigners train in Korea.)
Pretty much all foreign players have pretty horrible GSL records. Only jinro got deep into GSL repeatedly and this was a long time ago when the game was less well understood and the map pools were terrible. Koreans look almost universally worse when competing in foreign tournaments, even with proper resting time to get rid of jet lag, maybe the prestige of the GSL just brings out their most competetive side i dunno, but in foreign tournaments koreans seem to lose games they never would sat in those GSL booths. Even when playing another korean both players look sloppier. When we start seeing foreigners going deep into the GSL, thats a better indicator that the skill gap has been closed than anything else. Sadly by that view, the skill gap is bigger now than it has been previously.
I think that korean skill has actually pulled further ahead, tbh I can never see a foreigner winning a big tourney again, unless koreans don't show up or someone gets a very hucky (oops, I mean lucky) run
On April 06 2012 19:38 karn1 wrote: In my opinion there are just three foreigners who might survive in Code S: Naniwa, Huk and Stephano. And I think these three are head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners. Ret and Thorzain might be Code A material, but otherwise the Koreans dominate everything.
Naniwa? Not too sure about that :S
nor Huk or Stephano.
HuK has stayed in code s for a while, he could had been in code s this session since he was placed highest in the up&down, but he got knocked down unfortunately
stephano could make to code S too, he has the potential definitely.
No offense to Huk but with the old system you only had to win 1 match in your group to stay in code S. and how many times have we heard that x player has the potential to make it to code S only to not even qualify fairly for code A and if he gets a seed to get stomped.
On April 06 2012 19:38 karn1 wrote: In my opinion there are just three foreigners who might survive in Code S: Naniwa, Huk and Stephano. And I think these three are head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners. Ret and Thorzain might be Code A material, but otherwise the Koreans dominate everything.
Naniwa? Not too sure about that :S
nor Huk or Stephano.
HuK has stayed in code s for a while, he could had been in code s this session since he was placed highest in the up&down, but he got knocked down unfortunately
stephano could make to code S too, he has the potential definitely.
Huk was in code S long time ago If I remember right. Being placed highest in the up&down is different story from surviving in code S. Stephano is great but I think Code S is too much for him. He still loses to code A korean many times.
No i dont thinkt hey have ... sure a few outliers are beginning to get close. But for every korean pro that seems ot be godlike there seem to be 5-6 more that just haven't had the chance to shine yet.
It feels like foreigners arn't training properly / systematically enough. The koreans seem to have that culture down so i thinkt he gap will continue to widen.
An outlier doe not a catch up make.
Eg Jinro love him to bits but where is he? He had a great build at the right time and held his own for a bit but wasnt able to keep up with the game i guess. Great shame, but i hope hes having success in whatever hes doing.
As for Huk, sure its hard for him but he is the only consistent foreigner who seems to give koreans a run for their money. I bet if he spoke korean and could really get involved with the korean houses when he is over there he could really becomes strong. But then he was already a competitor and understands how to train and the mentality involved.
People have hinted at it above and it is an unmeasurable. But it does seem like there is a big disadvantage to playing after travelling - ie playing whilst being in a culture that doesn't exactly make sense to you. I imagine the psychological aspect of that is quite tiring in subtle ways which gets reflected in games. Especially true with the koreans who seem younger - and i dont think callign a lot of them kids is unjust. They are developing players and some of these koreans who are having problems abroad now are likley to be the ones who are stomping everywhere in a few years because they *will* get used to it.
Its a real shame we cant give out players the same support as the koreans can get. Woudl be interesting to see things on a true level playing field - but personally what makes koreans strong is all about their culture surrounding the game.
The other thing that i dont think a lot of peopel appreciate is that at the top a 1% difference in skill is GIGANTIC and represents hundreds of hours (if not more) of work. The differernce betweena lot of these players will only be 1-2% if that and that small subtle difference makes all the difference - and a lot of the top foreign players dont have people that close in skill to train with.
You got it all wrong op, as the time goes, the skill gap should grow, not the other way around. Individual instances prove nothing when there is 10 more great koreans to replace each one that will occasionally lose, and the same can not be said about foreigners.
On April 06 2012 18:37 nokz88 wrote: wtf is this thread seriously... OP clearly wanted to bait us to a flamefest.
I'd say there's more skill gap between Korean and rest of the World Starcraft 2 scenes than NBA and the rest of the world basketball leagues. It's somewhat comparable to NFL and other leagues.
On April 06 2012 17:53 THM wrote: Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2.
THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is
Is this trolling? You realize the BW pros will get stomped bad for quite awhile if they switch to SC2. You also realize they are not any better than the SC2 pro's other than they on average train longer and have better refined what they need to do to learn something. Look at winrates among the top players in both. Enjoy.
lol @ you. Not even going to bother addressing most of the fail in this as I am sure someone else will but I will let you know that BW players such as Jaedong have already started playing SC2 and they all have multiple Master league accounts (Korean server obviously).
"만약 병행이 된다면 선수들의 실력이 지금껏 스타2를 지켜봐온 마니아층에서 볼 땐 상당히 떨어져 보일 수도 있을 것이다. 1999년에 활동하던 선수들과 지금의 선수들은 실력 차가 크다. 하지만 크게 우려하지는 않는다. 조금만 지나면 금방 끌어올릴 수 있을 것이라 생각한다. GSL에서 활동 중인 선수들과 막 시작한 우리 선수들을 비교해보면 하늘과 땅 차이다. 하지만 경험의 차이는 금방 따라잡을 수 있을 것이라 생각한다."
Translation: Q: The skill gap between your players and original SC2 players looks quite large. A: If it happens (T/N: meaning SC2 in proleague) the play level will look very low compared to what fans are used to seeing now, just like there is a huge gap between BW players from 1999 and now. But I am not too worried, because we are confident we can upgrade our skill given a little bit of time. The difference in skill between GSL players and ours is like heaven and earth, but I think we can catch up quickly.
So yes, they will be stomped for a while when matched up with current SC2 pros. I think coach Ju knows better than you do.
Looking at results isn't even the right thing to look at. We should look at practice houses, training regime. The first roots leading to a more balanced international future are starting to grow, but the difference is still quite significantly in favor of Korea, when it comes to preparation. This makes it inevitable that there are more Koreans among the top players in the world, even though some individual foreigners are close enough to the very top and could win championships off Koreans. For now, when that happens it's more of a fluke, than to be expected 50% of the time. Which of course makes it the more exciting to see, but doesn't really prove the difference is shifting.
I think the gap has widened if anything. The only foreigner that still consistently takes games of Koreans is HuK and that's really because he mimics the Korean way of training. Stephano had a nice run, since he is ungodly talented, but it seems like Koreans have started to figure him out and he hasn't booked any good results vs Koreans lately (except beating Polt in that one tournament).
The thing about the Koreans that is truly scary though is just how many damn good players there are. Of course you have MKP/DRG and the like, but you can take a random bunch of Code A/B players and put them in MLG with all the top foreigners and I'd lay money on the Koreans to still take the top spots. Just look at what Heart did in last MLG, even though he has almost no accomplishments in Korea. With foreigners, there is a real steep dropoff after the top 10. And once you get below the top 50 it really just gets pathetic compared to the Koreans
No. Looking at the top percentiles of both foreigners and Koreans I'd say we still have a ways. And that's not even taking into account the bottom tier of foreign v Korean. The bottom of the foreigner scene still needs to raise before foreigners at any skill level within the pro circuit have a fighting chance against equally placed Koreans. (IE mid tier foreigner vs mid tier Korean... being a close to 50/50 ratio for win/loss).
Catching up? On the contrary, I believe at this point in time the "foreigner" skill is farther behind Korea than it's ever been. Even though a select few (Stephano comes to mind) might be able to compete, by and large the majority of foreign pros that had a chance of competing a year ago now don't stand a chance, unfortunately.
No, the gap is getting bigger and bigger. The top foreigners can't really compete with top Koreans. The average foreigner can't compete with low-tier Koreans.
Suppose you could freeze current skill levels and have the 50 best Koreans and 50 best foreigners play a round-robin tournament, with every match a Bo7. Maybe not totally ideal or realistic conditions, but you get the point. I think Stephano, Idra, Ret, HuK, Naniwa, Sase, Sheth, Major, Kas, Thorzain, Morrow could all compete to be in the top 50, but I'm not sure if any of them could for the top 20 spot. (except Stephano, HuK, Naniwa maybe)
This is why I agree with FXOBoss when he says it would be great to have a GSL for each region. That way Americans would have a chance to win something without any European. Same for Europeans without any Korean.
Of these, 5/8 are new: Jjakji, Taeja, Parting, DRG, and Leenock. Nobody heard of these guys during Beta. They're a new generation of SC 2 pros, and Korea is producing them every year to replace old timers - the Testers and Fruitdealers - that permeate the top of the foreigner's scene.
We have an old boy's club. They have a talent engine.
It's going to get worse.
This is a roughly translated version of an interview done with Coach Ju of Team 8, from the BW forum:
Q: How good is JD in SC2? Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it.
Q: Other teams? Coach Ju: Not sure about their skill levels. We [=the different teams] haven't really shared who is even playing SC2. One thing is for sure though: most high masters on ladder these days are current BW pros.
Q: Thoughts on BW fans against incorporating SC2? Coach Ju: Lots of people are against the idea of change, but I want to ask them, as fans of esports, what is the right choice? Nobody plays BW outside of Korea anymore, and looking 5 years ahead, transitioning to SC2 is the right decision. It would be a disservice to all the foreign fans wanting to watch JD play SC2 to limit him to BW. If you give SC2 a chance, most of the time people have the reaction of 'It's actually more fun than I thought.' I hope people can give it a chance.
JD being, of course, Jaedong. With Blizzard negotiating with Kespa, OGN looking to get into SC 2, and the BW scene in Korea making the switch, the competition is going to get fiercer. I'm not an Elephant In The Room guy, but when you infuse a highly competitive scene with loads of people whose RTS mechanics are off the roof, that's super charging it.
The foreigner's scene has no answer. It's been one and a half years, and the best we've produced is Stephano, who has amazing talent, but no discipline whatsoever and is looking to quit this year. You measure that against the influx of highly skilled amateurs in Korean SC 2, and in the future, the incoming S & A class BW pros, and the picture is dire.
I've not always been a doom and gloomer, but the way foreigner SC 2 is going, the way foreigner tournaments are going, the way new foreigner talents are not being cultivated and are not coming up to carry the torch, it's all doom and gloom.
On April 06 2012 21:06 a5mod wrote: This is why I agree with FXOBoss when he says it would be great to have a GSL for each region. That way Americans would have a chance to win something without any European. Same for Europeans without any Korean.
FXOBoss has a great point, but I don't know if he appreciates the full depth of how that point has an impact. Not only does GSL keep everyone close by, and foster a year-round training atmosphere of great players in a small location, they also foster a community and culture that starts people training seriously to become a progamer from a younger age. Look at the top foreigners - I bet you'll find that the age averages out to be older than the top Koreans. (Even if you exclude outliers, like WhiteRa. Who is still playing very well into his 30s.) I think foreigners don't commit to the kind of practice and training as young as Koreans, and aren't even exposed to the possibility of a "progamer" career until later in life.
I mean, look at Leenock and Maru - those kids (they're both at least half my age) are monsters and they still have a good 10 years more to play! It seems like a lot of foreigners don't begin to take gaming that seriously until they get that old. A GSL-style tournament with steady a product and an increased presence (for example, if MLG were ever to get that studio built in Columbus and sold a packaged show to even a second tier cable channel) could help to promote the kind of atmosphere which could get people going earlier. Now I feel like foreigners are starting at a disadvantage to begin with, just from the lack of time they could have been getting the basics put into muscle memory.
Yeah, SC2 itself isn't that old, but progaming is old enough and the basic mechanics of mouse accuracy and quick fingered typing are.
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
I actually feel the opposite. I think the cream of the foreign crop can compete with anyone in the Korean scene, but on average the majority of players are still only pulling "upsets" against Koreans in my mind.
I think Kennigits point is true. The best koreans > best foreigners. Good koreans = good foreigners. But theyre still not able to show good results in the GSL
Short answer, not yet, but getting closer. People need to remember that skill isn't gained in day, week, month, or even a year. It takes a LONG time to get good.
On April 06 2012 22:06 ooozer wrote: I still can't understand the obsession about foreigner vs koreans. I root for the better player, not for a nationality...
yeah it's pretty terrible. i wish more people would do that :D
Foreigners can't even qualify for Code A. No, they haven't caught up and they will never, because most foreigners are lazy, less talented and not as passionate about this game and with BW pros switching over the gap will become even bigger.
Also this foreigner vs koreans thing is quite annoying.
Koreans still win pretty much every foreign tournament they enter and only 1 or 2 foreigners could eventually do decent in the GSL, so no, the gap is still pretty big
On April 06 2012 22:06 ooozer wrote: I still can't understand the obsession about foreigner vs koreans. I root for the better player, not for a nationality...
Could not agree with you more. Why do you guys want to see sub-par players play the game?
I rather watch the game being played to the absolute maximum skill, executed to near-perfection, instead of a game being exciting because both players make big mistakes which results in an even game.
Eh, I always felt this topic has carried over from Brood War in a somewhat irrational way. As long as foreign players can quite comfortably beat Koreans in a series, it's pointless (and impossible) to measure the "skill gap" between the two groups as a whole.
Once again though, Korean players seem to be more serious and committed which for now gives them enough of an edge to go all the way and actually win tournaments. If this situation persists for the next few years however, then we'll be inevitably seeing an actual skill gap where the question will no longer be whether a top foreign player can beat a Korean, but whether he can put up a decent enough performance to make the game at least somewhat entertaining.
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
I actually feel the opposite. I think the cream of the foreign crop can compete with anyone in the Korean scene, but on average the majority of players are still only pulling "upsets" against Koreans in my mind.
if by the cream of the foreign crop you mean stephano, then i can see where your coming from, although i still think he would have to be playing his very best to stand a chance vs a top 10 korean. but apart from him theres no one who would win a match vs them and it wouldn't be an upset. maybe naniwa, well have to see how he does in Code S this time. Huk and Idra were just embarrassed in the GSL last season, and people think of them as really good. in the good but not godly tier of pros its quite equal though, theres quite a few people who could probably play Code A but dont, and with the NA tournaments starting to really pick up i think they probably wont bother. Huk did manage to qualify so hopefully he can do better this season, it would be nice to see a foreigner earn a code S place, and not be invited, even if he is protoss.
This is exactly what Blizzard and foreigners wanted with sc2. Most foreigners do not want to play 8-12 hours a day and Blizzard wanted the game to appeal more to non-Koreans. sc2 allows people to make random deep runs without the 8-12 hours of practice a day. This allows foreigners to randomly win but also makes it more difficult for a few people to dominate the scene. As a result koreans drop games and sets more often to foreigners but more interestingly to me is foreigners drop games and sets to no-namers and randoms.
On April 06 2012 16:51 mrtomjones wrote: Other than Huk, Stephano, Naniwa, Thorzain, Ret, Socke and sometimes Idra or Sase I can't think of anyone who compares to thew Koreans and sadly none of them have ever compared to whomever the top Korean is...so no not yet. Maybe someday...
Add to this Feast , Nerchio , sometimes MaNa ( when he have good day , he play really good , win after some Kr players already) , BlinG and many more players
the most underrated thing about the Korean scene is not th skill level of the top5 players but the actual depth of the second tier pros who are still ridculously good compared to foreigner standards
that being said, foreigners do seem to have catched up a little bit but nowhere near enough to say that the 2 scenes are close
My question in all of these sorts of discussions is "does it matter?"
Maybe its because I am from a part of the world without many home grown competitors. Maybe it is because I am from a country that doesn't often behave in a nationalist/patriotic way (imo thats a good thing, but irrelevant here).
I just want to see great, innovative play and epic control. I don't really care where a player is from, and I kinda don't understand why everyone does
edit: and I don't think foreigner tournaments, the MLGs, dreamhacks, IEMs and so on will do any worse if they are dominated by Koreans. I guess I don't even see why this is an issue for discussion
Most of the foreigners that come out and start making a name by beating Koreans fall into obscurity after within a year. We've seen this with a lot of players since launch. The fact that Koreans are still dominating almost every tournament shows a difference. I'm not saying foreigners aren't good, it's just that Korea always has a handful of monsters that knock them out towards the end of tournaments.
I think the skill gap is as big as it has always been. The Koreans are still getting all/most of the Top 8-16 places in any tournament they enter. And thats in a game where a 60-65% winrate against equally skilled gamers is considered absolute top which should allow foreigners to do more upsets here and there but this isnt the case and that just shows the pure dominance of Korea in SC2.
Plus this:
On April 06 2012 22:52 Kahlgar wrote: the most underrated thing about the Korean scene is not th skill level of the top5 players but the actual depth of the second tier pros who are still ridculously good compared to foreigner standards
Any second tier progamer from Korea is the favourite against standard foreigner progamers. We see that in smaller online cups and showmatches etc.
Alot of people trying to deny this fact for various reasons. Especially some statements of high level representatives and managers of the foreign scene are getting pretty embarassing.
I would say, generally speaking, foreigners have not caught up to Koreans. They may have closed the gap a little, but Koreans are still clearly (to me at least) better at the game. Yeah, you do have the occasional foreigner like Stephano or arguably NaNiwa who can hang in there, and then there's HuK, who doesn't really count because he has lived and trained in Korea for so long. But outside of that, you get these isolated incidents of players like DeMusliM beating NesTea, etc. That's an achievement that certainly shouldn't be overlooked, certainly, but I have yet to see a significant number of foreigners who can consistently compete on the level of top Koreans.
the gap is narrow enough to jump over, most matches are entertaining, ofc steamrolls do happen but if the very best players of the GSL dominate, well, they also dominate the other koreans... treat every gamer as an individual please!
I think the top 15 foreigners can hang with the top 30 koreans but after that- koreans dominate. Overall I honestly do not care, all my favorite players are koreans now because I mainly just watch the GSL and the average level of play there is just miles above the average foreign tournament simply because the players not only are faster (can multitask wayyy better), but the koreans in GSL also have better decision making, macro, and know how to make good engagements. MC fighting!!!
I expect some can show potential to compete with the top but their skill isnt even because they cant consistently do it. Huk and stephano are probably the most consistent but even then there are people they cant compete with all the time. I also think the way people are playing sc2 is also making it capable of people of less skill to compete with those of higher
No. I'd say the average korean pro is at least twice as skilled as the average foreigner pro, and while the top foreigner pros can compete with top koreans, there's no foreigner right now who I'd obejctively believe has any chance at winning a GSL.
At this point I think there are only 3 foreigners who can compete with the Koreans and those are Stephano, HuK, and Naniwa. But thats pretty much how it has always been, only the top foreigners can compete with the Koreans and everyone else just falls and dies.
Not even close. Korean has young and upcoming players like Maru and Creator who are Code S or close to Code S level while we have foreigners struggling to qualify even for Code A. For the foreigners, they have Stephano who isn't going to continue to play SC2. There's no incentive for foreigners to be good at SC2. It seems that the talent pool is mostly from those who played BW or WC3. Where are the new blood? Most of them rather be casters, maybe because that's where the money is and it requires less amount of training.
Not at all, they are even more ahead than when SC2 first burst out, back in GSL 1 and 2 days.
Without Stephano, Naniwa and to a lesser extent Thorzain, i wonder where the foreign scene would be? We would just rely on "old" BW talent like WhiteRa and Idra to get us anywhere.
I feel that the koreans in SC2 today have improved dramatically, the level is just insane right now and its just going higher and higher over there, whereas our game seems stagnant bar a few truly excellent players.
stop cherry picking 1 or 2 series where some foreigners like Stephano win vs Koreans. Look at overall results. the gap is huge and it's getting bigger.
Not even close....the number of foreigners that can compete with koreans you can count with your hands. People here don`t even need to bring up stats to prove it because it is not close at all.
On April 06 2012 19:38 karn1 wrote: In my opinion there are just three foreigners who might survive in Code S: Naniwa, Huk and Stephano. And I think these three are head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners. Ret and Thorzain might be Code A material, but otherwise the Koreans dominate everything.
Naniwa? Not too sure about that :S
nor Huk or Stephano.
HuK has stayed in code s for a while, he could had been in code s this session since he was placed highest in the up&down, but he got knocked down unfortunately
stephano could make to code S too, he has the potential definitely.
No offense to Huk but with the old system you only had to win 1 match in your group to stay in code S. and how many times have we heard that x player has the potential to make it to code S only to not even qualify fairly for code A and if he gets a seed to get stomped.
but he didn't just stay in code S, he went quite far into code S And everyone did say he doesn't deserve to be in code S but somehow he managed to be placed in the highest in up&down. I really think people are being way too harsh on him
stop cherry picking 1 or 2 series where some foreigners like Stephano win vs Koreans. Look at overall results. the gap is huge and it's getting bigger.
With more patches and expansions it'll get worse.
This also only takes into account the winner and runner-up as well. If there was a running count of the number of series won by korean pros and loses vs foreigners, it would show even more dominance.
There's a handful of Koreans at the very top that nobody can compete with on a regular basis, but in general, the top foreigners can compete with the top Koreans now.
No, most foreigners still lose to Koreans on mechanics alone. Only for the top 5-10 foreigners does strategy and build even come into effect in the game.
On April 07 2012 00:04 Mr Showtime wrote: There's a handful of Koreans at the very top that nobody can compete with on a regular basis, but in general, the top foreigners can compete with the top Koreans now.
top foreigners can't even make code A. so your statement is not true.
Stephano and huk / naniwa can take series off top Koreans, but others have shown jack nothing.
so if you mean by top foreigners by those three I mentioned sure.
but koreans have like 12312321 players and up and comers you've never heard of.
Are there Foreigners who can compete with the best Koreans? Yes, some select few. Does that mean the skill gap has closed? Not really- while you might argue that the fact that there are foreigners who are able to compete at the highest level proves said closing of the skill gap, I'd like to point out that for every foreigner that can take games from the best Koreans there are dozens if not hundreds of "A class" (if you will) Koreans that are able to take games from the best foreigners.
There are definitely more foreigners who can beat Koreans now than there were at the beginning of 2011, but still only a few who can beat tip-top Koreans (HuK, Stephano, NaNi, ThorZaIN/Kas occasionally...).
Sigh, the Koreans are best at this game, they were the best at BW and they will continue through SC2, stop making damn threads all the time about this! They take it more serious then western countries and they love it more. There are plenty of sports such as football that Koreans have a love for but they are far behind Europe talent wise. This game is Korean dominated, its not a bad thing, they are the best - deal with it and just enjoy things the way they are.
I don't think there are that many foreigners who have consistently beat high level Koreans. There are some though but until they start hitting Code S and what not I wouldn't say that they've caught up just yet.
On April 07 2012 00:54 CeroFail wrote: I don't think there are that many foreigners who have consistently beat high level Koreans. There are some though but until they start hitting Code S and what not I wouldn't say that they've caught up just yet.
Off the top of my head - Stephano, HuK, Naniwa, Ret, Morrow, Thorzain, SaSe, Sen, Sheth, and yes, IdrA are able to take games off top Koreans in macro games.
The problem with this list is that it's got one new talent - Stephano - who came up during the 1.5 years SC 2 has been out. The rest were there at the beginning of SC 2, and are still there today.
The foreigner's scene is shallow and stagnant. It has no depth and no future.
Overall, Koreans will be winning NA championships for a long time.
Maybe 5 could make it out of RO32 in Code S? No. Maybe Stephano and Huk..no one else.
i think naniwa has a good chance of getting to the ro16 this season considering his group. He's showed in the past he can beat MVP no problem, Ganzi's TvP is rather poor. only one i see giving him trouble will be puzzle.
There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
Top foreginers = Code A competition, Top Koreans = Code S, obviously :p
Important note: a big reason why I feel this way in light of some tournament results in foreign lands is that sure, you can beat a jet Code-S player in a random best of 3 and he's never heard of you, never studied your replays, likely doesn't even know who you are. You, on the other hand, probably have, because he's an SC2 god and you're just a foreign pro, so to you he's very well known. Play in the GSL, however, and you have days if not weeks to prepare for a single match. That Korean player is now going to sit down and wach a million of your replays, do a million practice matches specifically designed to exploit your flaws and publicly humiliate you. If nothing else, Korean pros, with enough time to prepare, are going to outwork you in preparation for a big match, and that makes all the difference.
I guess a better question here is, which tournament format proves you to be the better player? One like the GSL, where you have days and weeks between each match to prepare? Or one like MLG/Dreamhack, where you just sit down and play out the whole thing in a day or two? If it's the former, Koreans are still WAY ahead of the game. If it's the latter, then I still give it to Koreans (Stephano or Huk vs. any Code S player in a best of 9 is going down, though they could pull off a best of 3 with some luck and if the other guy is jet-lagged enough.)
On April 07 2012 00:54 CeroFail wrote: I don't think there are that many foreigners who have consistently beat high level Koreans. There are some though but until they start hitting Code S and what not I wouldn't say that they've caught up just yet.
Off the top of my head - Stephano, HuK, Naniwa, Ret, Morrow, Thorzain, SaSe, Sen, Sheth, and yes, IdrA are able to take games off top Koreans in macro games.
The problem with this list is that it's got one new talent - Stephano - who came up during the 1.5 years SC 2 has been out. The rest were there at the beginning of SC 2, and are still there today.
The foreigner's scene is shallow and stagnant. It has no depth and no future.
I'm sorry but what? The post you quoted asked the question about consistently beating players, not occasionally taking games off them
The key term is consistently beat top Koreans. This year alone Idra and Morrow have failed to make it out of Code A Ro32, let alone beat 'top koreans'
Huk is back in Code A, Naniwa is only in Code S courtesy of a free seeding. Sen, Sheth, Thorzain, SaSe and Ret have all tried and failed (but I still love them all for it). Yeah, they may win a match or two in a team league, and Ret rolled through Parting and Oz at the Redbull Lan for no prizemoney, but the fact is that GSL is the only competition that matters, purely because they are the only league that gives players time to prepare for a match and therein show who is the best.
Irregardless, all of those guys do and will continue to picking up the odd set off korean players, but none of them to date have consistently knocked off top Korean players. Even our best foreigner runs (such as Idra and Jinro in the early GSLs, or Huk midway through last year) only lasted for a very short time
Let's say Stephano is the best foriegner. I can pick one code A player from korea and that guy willl have atleast 50% chance to beat him. That's how good top foriegners are.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
On April 07 2012 00:54 CeroFail wrote: I don't think there are that many foreigners who have consistently beat high level Koreans. There are some though but until they start hitting Code S and what not I wouldn't say that they've caught up just yet.
Off the top of my head - Stephano, HuK, Naniwa, Ret, Morrow, Thorzain, SaSe, Sen, Sheth, and yes, IdrA are able to take games off top Koreans in macro games.
The problem with this list is that it's got one new talent - Stephano - who came up during the 1.5 years SC 2 has been out. The rest were there at the beginning of SC 2, and are still there today.
The foreigner's scene is shallow and stagnant. It has no depth and no future.
I'm sorry but what? The post you quoted asked the question about consistently beating players, not occasionally taking games off them
The key term is consistently beat top Koreans. This year alone Idra and Morrow have failed to make it out of Code A Ro32, let alone beat 'top koreans'
Huk is back in Code A, Naniwa is only in Code S courtesy of a free seeding. Sen, Sheth, Thorzain, SaSe and Ret have all tried and failed (but I still love them all for it). Yeah, they may win a match or two in a team league, and Ret rolled through Parting and Oz at the Redbull Lan for no prizemoney, but the fact is that GSL is the only competition that matters, purely because they are the only league that gives players time to prepare for a match and therein show who is the best.
Irregardless, all of those guys do and will continue to picking up the odd set off korean players, but none of them to date have consistently knocked off top Korean players. Even our best foreigner runs (such as Idra and Jinro in the early GSLs, or Huk midway through last year) only lasted for a very short time
There is no foreigner that does what you're saying, besides HuK in PvP. I read him as saying foreigners who are able to beat Koreans in macro games and not just in a one-off fashion. A foreigner player who knocks off top Koreans the way you're talking about it is better than them; no foreigner is that way, besides HuK in PvP.
On April 07 2012 01:13 Wildmoon wrote: Let's say Stephano is the best foriegner. I can pick one code A player from korea and that guy willl have atleast 50% chance to beat him. That's how good top foriegners are.
I would put money on almost any of the code A players to beat him tbh. Yes Stephano is good, and yea he can take series off Koreans but in the GSL format where players have time to prep for their opponents he will get smashed
Even if you take the mighty mighty Stephano as an example, he has only been up there for around six months right? Jinro acheived that too. Surely, lets not say Stephano is up there with the 'top' koreans until he has kept up to that level for a decent length of time
On April 07 2012 01:13 Wildmoon wrote: Let's say Stephano is the best foriegner. I can pick one code A player from korea and that guy willl have atleast 50% chance to beat him. That's how good top foriegners are.
what you say only seems to suggest how good stephano is....
I just hope future foreign tournaments won't look like IPL4. Way too many koreans, I don't even care about that tournament anymore. MLG already had too many for my taste.
Nope. Not accounting for trends. Sometimes, foreigners beat top koreans. Then it always turns out that these events were part of a slump the korean was going through. I have yet to see a foreigner ever beat a top korean when the korean is on a hot streak.
Overall, Koreans will be winning NA championships for a long time.
Maybe 5 could make it out of RO32 in Code S? No. Maybe Stephano and Huk..no one else.
i think naniwa has a good chance of getting to the ro16 this season considering his group. He's showed in the past he can beat MVP no problem, Ganzi's TvP is rather poor. only one i see giving him trouble will be puzzle.
Those Koreans in GSL are vastly different than in foreign tournament..u know it
On April 07 2012 01:19 Champloo wrote: I just hope future foreign tournaments won't look like IPL4. Way too many koreans, I don't even care about that tournament anymore. MLG already had too many for my taste.
I never have and never will understand this kind of logic... God that tournament has wayy to many of the best players in the world, I don't want to watch that!
On April 07 2012 01:13 Wildmoon wrote: Let's say Stephano is the best foriegner. I can pick one code A player from korea and that guy willl have atleast 50% chance to beat him. That's how good top foriegners are.
what you say only seems to suggest how good stephano is....
Yes, if by good you mean code A level. What I am saying is top foriegners = Code A.
I don't think that foreigners has caught up with the koreans and I doubt we ever will. In my opinion the top foreigners have become more consistent in big non-korean tournaments (Stephano, Naniwa and HuK) but skillwise they're still only low Code S or high Code A. When relatively 'no name' Koreans attend foreign tournaments they're still huge favourites in front of accomplished players such as Sheth, Thorzain, IdrA and so on.
To me this is how it goes, foreigners are really good at LAN events(aka 3-4 day sprint events like MLG/IPL etc) but when it comes to large tournament like the GSL which excels in the preparation aspect they don't do all that well.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I don't understand what you are saying. You are saying that Koreans are better because we think they are better? -_-"
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I don't understand what you are saying. You are saying that Koreans are better because we think they are better? -_-"
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I don't understand what you are saying. You are saying that Koreans are better because we think they are better? -_-"
Exactly.
So stephano doesn't think koreans are better than him then why he is still not better than koreans?
it's getting even bigger... when has someone not named: ret, idra, huk, stephano, sase, or naniwa beat a top flight korean in any meaningful competition? This is how it will always be. We will have a handful that are near the skill level or the top players and that's about as good as expected. We may get a random upset here and there but outside those 5-6 foreigners, who can really compete day in and day out?
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I don't understand what you are saying. You are saying that Koreans are better because we think they are better? -_-"
Exactly.
No they are better because foreigners are worse. I can't comprehend the level of denial you are in. lol
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I don't understand what you are saying. You are saying that Koreans are better because we think they are better? -_-"
Exactly.
No they are better because foreigners are worse. I can't comprehend the level of denial you are in. lol
This self-defeating attitude is exactly what i'm talking about.
way too heated argument, as long as we can enjoy something like the run socke had last mlg i would say it is "close enough" for me to be enjoyable, because i like to cheer for the underdog, unless mvp, mma or mkp play, then i cheer in that order ^.^
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
What.
The Korean practice model (which is merely practicing a ton) is considered the best way to get better at starcraft because those that follow it are the best at starcraft. There is no cultural relativity here. Practice makes perfect.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Don't deal in absolutes. Koreans' practice system is better, but it's by no means the best. There are always ways to improve.
Why do people have to make this thread like a dozen times a week. If you see foreigners consistently winning in korea, you can ask this question. Until then, stop, dear god please, stop.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
What's up for debate is whether it is worth for people to follow. Koreans sacrifice a lot for that practice regime. For example a social life in most cases. Foreigners are less willing to sacrifice their social lives to practice 12+ hours a day. Koreans aren't born better at sc2. They just sacrifice more and put in more effort and work into being better at it than foreigners.
The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
I don't see the skillcap being too large in overall. Well after these big events we can try to read the current skill scaling, and after IPL, we hopefully see some rising foreigners, or just the standard 4 koreans top.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
I think it depends on if the bw switch will remain insular or not. I'm not sure if it's been stated yet if bw pros would attend foreign tourneys or just stick to their proleague. I sure hope they attend foreign tourneys.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Don't deal in absolutes. Koreans' practice system is better, but it's by no means the best. There are always ways to improve.
This is what I am trying to say. People deal in absolute's when they say that Koreans are better, and it's hurting their gameplay mentally.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality. Look, I hope to win the lottery. Doesn't mean it's going to happen.
I may be on the opposite spectrum, but you're on the lottery spectrum.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
I think it depends on if the bw switch will remain insular or not. I'm not sure if it's been stated yet if bw pros would attend foreign tourneys or just stick to their proleague. I sure hope they attend foreign tourneys.
I don't see how that make sense Koreans don't need to go to foreign tourneys because Korean tournaments are the best with the best players foreign tourament means nothing.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I don't understand what you are saying. You are saying that Koreans are better because we think they are better? -_-"
Exactly.
um no, they are better because they ARE BETTER
you have no idea what you're talking about.
what you say makes 0 sense and it goes against any common sense in any sport.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
This is an interesting take, because I thought it might be exactly the opposite. My thought was that it seems like a given Korean is likely to perform better than a given foreigner because even the less than top Koreans are training in top-like environments. So even the mid-level Korean pros have training which mid-level foreign pros can only wish they had.
I could definitely be wrong, but it seems to me that the key difference is still attitude and training, both of which foreigners lack more because of the lack of esports infrastructure than anything. I'm totally willing to concede that you likely have a far better insight into this topic than I do though.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
I think it depends on if the bw switch will remain insular or not. I'm not sure if it's been stated yet if bw pros would attend foreign tourneys or just stick to their proleague. I sure hope they attend foreign tourneys.
I don't see how that make sense Koreans don't need to go to foreign tourneys because Korean tournaments are the best with the best players foreign tourament means nothing.
Oh, I don't mean it won't affect the skill gap. I mean if they stay insular that change won't have any impact on the foreign scene if foreigners never play the bw pros. Ie, foreigners don't have to worry about bw pros taking their monies!!...just the current korean sc2 pros.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
Still, is the skill gap increasing 'a problem'?
For foreigner players probably.
And for the people like you and I who support this scene and watch games?
Even if the top 20 was half Korean half foreigner, it would point towards Koreans being better - remember that there are far more foreigners than Koreans in the tournament.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
I agree to an extent because I actually think people use that mentality as a built in excuse in order to not work harder.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
Maybe, but there is no evidence WHATSOEVER that foreign pros think that they are not good enough. This is a discussion between fans ffs
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
ah I see so in the end you are only arguing about the foreigner's mindset,correct?
but in reality every one of them actually do believe that they can beat Koreans and they still do, but thinking you can beat them is just a small step and will mean absolutely nothing without proper training.
how does less initial skill + less practice = foreigners ever being on the level of koreans...just nonsense. Even alot of the koreans who weren't progamers before sc2 are much better than most foreigners except a few and thats bcause they live in team houses and practice more.
They practice more with better players...practice more with better players...practice more with better playerss... get it?
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
Still, is the skill gap increasing 'a problem'?
For foreigner players probably.
And for the people like you and I who support this scene and watch games?
No for foreign pro gamers it's hard to win any prize money as is. If players can't make a living they will quit just ask Stephano he said he decided to do one more year of starcraft because last year was a good year for him finanically. The increase in skill gap is bad for foreign players because it means less prize money for them. Unless foreigners can keep up with Koreans which I doubt.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
I agree to an extent because I actually think people use that mentality as a built in excuse in order to not work harder.
I differ from that in that I believe instead of working harder, people use it as a scapegoat for losing. They lost because he was a Korean, not because they didn't perfect their strategy.
So in a sense we both know where each other is coming from. I said the same thing as you, just in different words.
The foreighners are catching up, but still behind. The gap may never be closed completely, but it's not necessary as long as foreighners continue to progress.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
On April 07 2012 00:54 CeroFail wrote: I don't think there are that many foreigners who have consistently beat high level Koreans. There are some though but until they start hitting Code S and what not I wouldn't say that they've caught up just yet.
Off the top of my head - Stephano, HuK, Naniwa, Ret, Morrow, Thorzain, SaSe, Sen, Sheth, and yes, IdrA are able to take games off top Koreans in macro games.
The problem with this list is that it's got one new talent - Stephano - who came up during the 1.5 years SC 2 has been out. The rest were there at the beginning of SC 2, and are still there today.
The foreigner's scene is shallow and stagnant. It has no depth and no future.
its really annoying reading some casual sc2 fan spout off bullshit like this when its clear he has no idea about the scene mostly because he barely follows it outside of who wins GSL and or MLG.
On April 07 2012 01:13 Necro)Phagist( wrote: [quote] lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not deny that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
On April 07 2012 01:28 Necro)Phagist( wrote: [quote] I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
please do not change my question and answer it to your own liking.
Koreans are outright better than foreigners now its true, there is no point in denying it the results speak for themselves, to deny it is as bad as a mentality as saying that foreigners will never beat Koreans.
On April 07 2012 01:13 Necro)Phagist( wrote: [quote] lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse.
Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
please do not change my question and answer it to your own liking.
You asked a loaded question, I changed it to something i would answer.
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
please do not change my question and answer it to your own liking.
You asked a loaded question, I changed it to something i would answer.
I would still like an answer to my original question, avoiding it isn't helping you at all.
average foreign progamer will never surpass average korean progamer, unless they stop putting them on a pedestal. 12+ years of korean RTS dominance is intimidating, and hard to build confidence against. no ammount of extra practice or hard work ethic will change anything unless foreigners build confidence and break out of this mindset.
On April 07 2012 01:28 Necro)Phagist( wrote: [quote] I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Master player lose to bronze because of mental barrier too?
Americans like Incontrol, Idra, Axlsav are not up to par. Europeans like Sase, Naniwa and Nerchio are also not up to par,
Stephano is a slight exception, but i only rekon he has about a 51% edge on the top Koreans, and thus he will have a relativity even record vs top Korean players.
So in short, only Stephano is up to par, and thus one can not judge western progress on the basis of one players results.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse.
Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell.
I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
please do not change my question and answer it to your own liking.
You asked a loaded question, I changed it to something i would answer.
I would still like an answer to my original question, avoiding it isn't helping you at all.
If you would like the answer to my edited version of your question then you already have it. As far as answering your original question, i'll pass.
On April 07 2012 01:28 Necro)Phagist( wrote: [quote] I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
that's why you are in denial and clueless.
the fact that Koreans win has everything to do with them being better.
On April 07 2012 01:28 Necro)Phagist( wrote: [quote] I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
If I have right mind set then I guess I can be MVP too. lol
I think the reason koreans are better are a wide range of strats and also the fact they are more consistent! Not to mention they have done strats so many times they have it to a key, how amny times do we see foreigners mess up a risky strat because of lack of practice?
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves?
What? No. Not at all. If anything, MKP's recent performances have been so spectacular that I don't think any current foreign pro will reach the level he's currently at, let alone where he will be in a month or 6 months...
If foreign pros haven't had their success yet, what makes you think it's gonna get any better once BW organizations/players start making the switch?
Look at the trend in recruitment... every foreign team is scrambling to claim Korean players.
On April 07 2012 01:28 Necro)Phagist( wrote: [quote] I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse.
Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell.
I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across.
The reason Koreans are better are for multiple reasons. 1. The average work ethic of a korean pro-gamer is higher then that of a foreigner, 12-16 hour practice days(16 on the high end for a brood war player), versus 6 to 8, with a few foreigners in the korean practice range.
2. Starcraft 2's metagame evolves and shifts IN KOREA, with few exceptions, builds are developed and countered and figured out there before anywhere else in the world, so they are able to take more out of games and play better styles before foreigners get wind of it.
4. Korean players actually work as a team and do coaching and have people that analyze oponents play.
I'm sure their are more reasons but this is basically it. Koreans on average have much better mechanics then foreigners- the peak of foreign mechanics are Stephano and MajOr, the peak of Korean mechanics are MMA and forGG (just a few examples)- they are faster and better palyers mechanically, their foundations are stronger, they never miss any production, you'll see PERFECT, absolutely PERFECT mechanics when the broodwar pros, specifically Jaedong, switch over.
Their may be a mental block when players play against koreans, but its more a tangible difference in skill between foreigners and Koreans
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Thing is, for every top-foreigner there are like 5-10 top-koreans with the same skill level that are practicing against each other in a good training environment.
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
OK. So according to you how have foreigners come to this conclusion that Koreans are better? In the early days of competitive RTS (say around 1999), players like Slayer and Grrrr... were better than the best Koreans. So they had no reason to believe that Koreans were superior players. At some point however, Koreans took over as the best RTS players in the world. This transition is not explained by your theory that it's all psychological. There must have been some skill involved there.
Until you wouldn't be surprised to see a foreigner win a major event or even expect to see one in the finals of a tournament with lots of Koreans, a skill gap wll exist.
By this measure, I think there is a group of foreigners whose skill is on par with top Koreans, but the group of Koreans that you would not be surprised to see in the top 10 at IPL4 is far bigger than the group of foreigners.
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
This is basically my opinion. Though this was much more eloquently stated and historically accurate . My point of view is that I saw at the IPTL (or whatever the team league is called) that teams weren't great could take on even amazing looking players. I saw people who are absolutely great play other absolutely great players, but the top 1% of Koreans could still dominate the top 1% of foreigners. HOWEVER, the median players were around the same skill level, i repeat, around not necessarily at exactly but lower or higher depending on the game. People like beastyqt (an example not an absolute) who is a great player, but not someone in the top 1% of pro foreigners play against mid level koreans and win. Basically we are getting to their, but not fully their yet and it may still be a bit of time, but eventually unless we get a kickout of foreigners like what KeSPA did, the foreigners will eventually come to be at a level on par with koreans, like Stephano has shown recently.
On April 07 2012 02:44 Doso wrote: Thing is, for every top-foreigner there are like 5-10 top-koreans with the same skill level that are practicing against each other in a good training environment.
Great point, it means, Jisall, that Koreans skill will increase faster then foreigners.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves?
I didn't answer this because it is an exaggeration. Obviously a bronze player has less skill then a GM player. But if your trying to compare GM players to koreans and Bronze players to Foreigners, that is a stretch.
I don't get all this foreign korean skill gap in SC2 the best foreigners have always been able to compete against the best koreans losing a little more often than not but, competing nevertheless there is just way more korean depth.
I think the results will show the truth about this issue. Last MLG was dominated by Koreans. If we have a situation where a major tournament is more evenly split at the top between Koreans and Foreigners then we can argue that Foreign Skill has caught up. At this point, we are not there, Koreans still dominate the big tournaments. One or two Foreigners like Huk, Naniwa or Stephano placing in the prize-money cannot change the overall Korean hegemony by themselves. More Foreigners need to step up too.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact.
On April 07 2012 01:52 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves?
I didn't answer this because it is an exaggeration. Obviously a bronze player has less skill then a GM player. But if your trying to compare GM players to koreans and Bronze players to Foreigners, that is a stretch.
Try responding on why the factors i posted in my post don't matter at all and the skill difference is purely psyhchological.
On April 07 2012 01:52 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves?
I didn't answer this because it is an exaggeration. Obviously a bronze player has less skill then a GM player. But if your trying to compare GM players to koreans and Bronze players to Foreigners, that is a stretch.
Yeah, I'm not comparing foreigners to bronze, but I believe koreans are on a diff tier. To simplify, if foreigners are GM level, then I believe Koreans are on a tier above GM, but that gap is not as big as GM to bronze, but there is still a gap nonetheless.
On April 07 2012 01:52 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact.
Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse.
Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell.
I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across.
The reason Koreans are better are for multiple reasons. 1. The average work ethic of a korean pro-gamer is higher then that of a foreigner, 12-16 hour practice days(16 on the high end for a brood war player), versus 6 to 8, with a few foreigners in the korean practice range.
2. Starcraft 2's metagame evolves and shifts IN KOREA, with few exceptions, builds are developed and countered and figured out there before anywhere else in the world, so they are able to take more out of games and play better styles before foreigners get wind of it.
4. Korean players actually work as a team and do coaching and have people that analyze oponents play.
I'm sure their are more reasons but this is basically it. Koreans on average have much better mechanics then foreigners- the peak of foreign mechanics are Stephano and MajOr, the peak of Korean mechanics are MMA and forGG (just a few examples)- they are faster and better palyers mechanically, their foundations are stronger, they never miss any production, you'll see PERFECT, absolutely PERFECT mechanics when the broodwar pros, specifically Jaedong, switch over.
Their may be a mental block when players play against koreans, but its more a tangible difference in skill between foreigners and Koreans
I don't listen to Kpop, but I'll concede to you on that lol.
Stephano doesn't follow the Korean model of practicing, he practices for around 4-6 hours a day. That would be my counter-point to your first point.
Using Stephano again, his mass ling did not start in Korea. The meta-game revolves around Korea because people believe Koreans to be the best, so they have to learn what Koreans do in order to compete. Its again this psychological barrier.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves?
I didn't answer this because it is an exaggeration. Obviously a bronze player has less skill then a GM player. But if your trying to compare GM players to koreans and Bronze players to Foreigners, that is a stretch.
Try responding on why the factors i posted in my post don't matter at all and the skill difference is purely psyhchological.
It's a strategy game. In top level's everyone's skills are very similar. What makes the difference is the decision making and mental state.
On April 07 2012 02:44 Doso wrote: Thing is, for every top-foreigner there are like 5-10 top-koreans with the same skill level that are practicing against each other in a good training environment.
This is the answer right here.
The problem isn't one of skill, it's one of depth.
I love the foreign scene dearly, but they don't have enough top players right now, and they don't seem to be generating any new players. It's always the same people. Whereas in Korea they have this kind of player creation factory. It's obviously much easier for them because they have so many more people in a small geographic area who are all trying to climb to the top.
Do this exercise. Take the top foreigners in SC2 (the ones who won tournaments or went deep) from the whole time SC2 has been out. So you'd have Huk, Naniwa, Stephano, Idra, Jinro, maybe players like Morrow, White-Ra of course, you all know the list better than I do. Maybe you end up with 10 or so players at maximum.
Now, take 10 Koreans, randomly, out of all the Koreans who have ever been on stage playing professionally in SC2.
Run back the clock and pretend that these Koreans are in fact foreigners (this is ignoring the advantage Koreans have with their training houses, having training houses for longer, better coaches, SCBW legacy of practice, whatever). Just pretend that these 10 Koreans are "foreigners", even though they aren't, and follow how well they do.
What would their careers be like? Out of 10 random Koreans, you'd probably have 2 or 3 that are still dominant today. You'd have some FruitDealers and BitByBits who are nowhere today. And you'd have a bunch of middling players who still today struggle in Code B, but maybe do well in the odd foreign tournament. In other words, you'd have something that looks kind of like the foreign scene, except probably a little bit better depending on how the random draw went.
What I'm saying (I'm sorry I'm not explaining it more clearly) is that the Korean scene has so many players that it doesn't matter that the majority of them won't ever find any success on the stage. The foreign player community, as others have said, seems to be all the same names. These 10 or so foreign players are all we have who take the game seriously and play it professionally and dedicate themselves to practice. In fact, if you take moving to Korea and playing in a Korean team house as the ultimate in dedication, there really were only two people who have done this consistently: Huk and Jinro. Out of those two, one is still doing well and the other did well at first but fell off.
Pick two Korean pro players at random. Wouldn't you likely find that, on average, you'd pick one that is still doing okay and another that did well at first and then fell off?
I think the answer is to improve the grassroots foreign scene and have more tournaments like the Blizzard World events, where more people can make a living at SC2 at the national level. If we get more new players, a lot more, the odds are that some will be able to rise to the top.
TL;DR: Korean players dominate not just because of skill but because the Korean scene produces an order of magnitude more professional players, and continues to produce new ones, whereas this doesn't happen (yet) in the foreign scene.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact.
Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man.
Your missing my point.
I'm saying that the reason for what you are talking about is because foreigners have a mental barrier.
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse.
Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell.
I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across.
The reason Koreans are better are for multiple reasons. 1. The average work ethic of a korean pro-gamer is higher then that of a foreigner, 12-16 hour practice days(16 on the high end for a brood war player), versus 6 to 8, with a few foreigners in the korean practice range.
2. Starcraft 2's metagame evolves and shifts IN KOREA, with few exceptions, builds are developed and countered and figured out there before anywhere else in the world, so they are able to take more out of games and play better styles before foreigners get wind of it.
4. Korean players actually work as a team and do coaching and have people that analyze oponents play.
I'm sure their are more reasons but this is basically it. Koreans on average have much better mechanics then foreigners- the peak of foreign mechanics are Stephano and MajOr, the peak of Korean mechanics are MMA and forGG (just a few examples)- they are faster and better palyers mechanically, their foundations are stronger, they never miss any production, you'll see PERFECT, absolutely PERFECT mechanics when the broodwar pros, specifically Jaedong, switch over.
Their may be a mental block when players play against koreans, but its more a tangible difference in skill between foreigners and Koreans
I don't listen to Kpop, but I'll concede to you on that lol.
Stephano doesn't follow the Korean model of practicing, he practices for around 4-6 hours a day. That would be my counter-point to your first point.
Using Stephano again, his mass ling did not start in Korea. The meta-game revolves around Korea because people believe Koreans to be the best, so they have to learn what Koreans do in order to compete. Its again this psychological barrier.
Foriegners have teams and team houses as well.
Stephano lost in the first round of Blizzard cup, winning vs Hero when hero had nerve issues and was code b and winning a ZvZ vs dongraegu, which is self explanatory.
Stephano is probably Code A level, but cant take tip top koreans (and no that isnt psychological).
Stehpanos ZvP style ill give you, but nearly every other build (not including beta builds) is Korean, even the refined versions of builds.
Foreigner team houses never seem to be full with palyers because of all the tournaments they have to attend, AND, they don't have coaches or people who analyze gameplay FOR THEM like korean pro housees do.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves?
I didn't answer this because it is an exaggeration. Obviously a bronze player has less skill then a GM player. But if your trying to compare GM players to koreans and Bronze players to Foreigners, that is a stretch.
Yeah, I'm not comparing foreigners to bronze, but I believe koreans are on a diff tier. To simplify, if foreigners are GM level, then I believe Koreans are on a tier above GM, but that gap is not as big as GM to bronze, but there is still a gap nonetheless.
Your attributing the gap to skill while i attribute it to psycological reasons.
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse.
Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell.
I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across.
The reason Koreans are better are for multiple reasons. 1. The average work ethic of a korean pro-gamer is higher then that of a foreigner, 12-16 hour practice days(16 on the high end for a brood war player), versus 6 to 8, with a few foreigners in the korean practice range.
2. Starcraft 2's metagame evolves and shifts IN KOREA, with few exceptions, builds are developed and countered and figured out there before anywhere else in the world, so they are able to take more out of games and play better styles before foreigners get wind of it.
4. Korean players actually work as a team and do coaching and have people that analyze oponents play.
I'm sure their are more reasons but this is basically it. Koreans on average have much better mechanics then foreigners- the peak of foreign mechanics are Stephano and MajOr, the peak of Korean mechanics are MMA and forGG (just a few examples)- they are faster and better palyers mechanically, their foundations are stronger, they never miss any production, you'll see PERFECT, absolutely PERFECT mechanics when the broodwar pros, specifically Jaedong, switch over.
Their may be a mental block when players play against koreans, but its more a tangible difference in skill between foreigners and Koreans
I don't listen to Kpop, but I'll concede to you on that lol.
Stephano doesn't follow the Korean model of practicing, he practices for around 4-6 hours a day. That would be my counter-point to your first point.
Using Stephano again, his mass ling did not start in Korea. The meta-game revolves around Korea because people believe Koreans to be the best, so they have to learn what Koreans do in order to compete. Its again this psychological barrier.
Foriegners have teams and team houses as well.
Stephano is also not top Korean Talent. He may be the best foreigner but that's like being the fastest fat kid. If he is only practicing 4-6 hours a day (which I HIGHLY doubt), he better get his ass in gear and start practicing more. Because he sure as hell isn't Leenock, NesTea or DRG.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact.
Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man.
Your missing my point.
I'm saying that the reason for what you are talking about is because foreigners have a mental barrier.
And we are saying it's because their is a tangible difference in Korean and Foreigner skill- go watch PoVs and look at build orders and look at total wins and look at how much koreans play and you see a clear rift.
The fact that koreans practice more isn't "psychological", its called work ethic.
the mentality isnt even i cant beat koreans. it is i am going to have a hard time beating a player that is better than me. If i had to play ret i would be like well im pretty much fucked because he is way better but i would feel more confident against lets say revival because I am closer to his level of skill. It is nothing to do with korean or non korean. The only mental assumption that has to do with a korean player is "well he is in a pro team house so he is probably more skilled than the average foreinger" which is a logical and often correct assumption anyways. practice makes you more skilled and better. MORE PRACTICE WITH BETTER PLAYERS! thats what it is.
The menality only comes into play when the have a similar level. Axslav has a better mindset than idra but idra is better because he is more skilled. Clicking buttons quickly and accurately is a skill.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact.
Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man.
Your missing my point.
I'm saying that the reason for what you are talking about is because foreigners have a mental barrier.
You're missing our point though. At the inception of SC2, it was seen as the great equalizer coming from BW. Finally there was a game that minimized mechanics enough that foreigners can compete with Koreans. Early in SC2 we saw foreigners having tons of success. Players like TLO were beating BoxeR. IdrA and Ret were seen as a huge foreign powerhouses who could take on the GSL. There wasn't a mental barrier. People thought that the time had finally come for foreigners to compete on equal footing with Koreans. Then something magical happened and Koreans started owning foreigners. That magical thing was practice regiment and professionalism and dedication. Not some mental barrier. SC2 is no different than any other sport. Those who put in the time and effort will reap the benefits. Those who don't will always be second place.
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse.
Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell.
I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across.
The reason Koreans are better are for multiple reasons. 1. The average work ethic of a korean pro-gamer is higher then that of a foreigner, 12-16 hour practice days(16 on the high end for a brood war player), versus 6 to 8, with a few foreigners in the korean practice range.
2. Starcraft 2's metagame evolves and shifts IN KOREA, with few exceptions, builds are developed and countered and figured out there before anywhere else in the world, so they are able to take more out of games and play better styles before foreigners get wind of it.
4. Korean players actually work as a team and do coaching and have people that analyze oponents play.
I'm sure their are more reasons but this is basically it. Koreans on average have much better mechanics then foreigners- the peak of foreign mechanics are Stephano and MajOr, the peak of Korean mechanics are MMA and forGG (just a few examples)- they are faster and better palyers mechanically, their foundations are stronger, they never miss any production, you'll see PERFECT, absolutely PERFECT mechanics when the broodwar pros, specifically Jaedong, switch over.
Their may be a mental block when players play against koreans, but its more a tangible difference in skill between foreigners and Koreans
I don't listen to Kpop, but I'll concede to you on that lol.
Stephano doesn't follow the Korean model of practicing, he practices for around 4-6 hours a day. That would be my counter-point to your first point.
Using Stephano again, his mass ling did not start in Korea. The meta-game revolves around Korea because people believe Koreans to be the best, so they have to learn what Koreans do in order to compete. Its again this psychological barrier.
Foriegners have teams and team houses as well.
yes, you don't have to train like korean to be good. Korean is still better at this game anyway. It's not about mindset but the result they put out.
Many people confuse top korean with average korean when they said top foriegners can compete with top korean. Stephano vs Polt is very close match up but you know what Polt was not able to qualify for Code S at that time.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact.
Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man.
Just need them Malaysian pro players :D to show Europeans where they are going wrong..... oh wait there are no pros from that part of the World..... shame
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact.
Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man.
Just need them Malaysian pro players :D to show Europeans where they are going wrong..... oh wait there are no pros from that part of the World..... shame
I don't see how that's relevant. But if you want to play that game, UK is where it's at you guys have what 2 Pros? Who have combined for around 0 big tournament wins? Also don't forget that a large portion of Malaysia's population is too poor to have time wasted on playing games. Also I'm not even from malaysia =_= I just have a lot of family there..
kinda strange OP title, implying that the skill gap is slimming? I don't think it's even close. The very best foreigners wouldn't/don't even survive code A.
On April 07 2012 03:39 speknek wrote: kinda strange OP title, implying that the skill gap is slimming? I don't think it's even close. The very best foreigners wouldn't/don't even survive code A.
This is the bottom line. Until a foreigner makes it into code S the legitimate way, I think it's safe to assume there's a massive gap.
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
On April 07 2012 00:04 Mr Showtime wrote: There's a handful of Koreans at the very top that nobody can compete with on a regular basis, but in general, the top foreigners can compete with the top Koreans now.
top foreigners can't even make code A. so your statement is not true.
Stephano and huk / naniwa can take series off top Koreans, but others have shown jack nothing.
so if you mean by top foreigners by those three I mentioned sure.
but koreans have like 12312321 players and up and comers you've never heard of.
Please show me the long list of foreigners who dedicate their career to making it in GSL. Nobody does. The top foreigners are defeating the top level Koreans (with exception to the few at the very top) regularly enough that the skill level seems similar.
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
I seriously wish this misinformation would stop, because it's pure bullshit. A very select few Foreigners get nice paychecks, and they're the ones that have put in years of "sweat blood and tears". HuK, IdrA and Stephano all have spent an extreme amount of time training.
Even the worst of Koreans (ones that have never even qualified for GSL) on a team gets a house, food and utilities. That's worth at least a thousand dollars a month for most people living in 1st world countries, and that's a lot more than what most Foreign players get in monthly salary.
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: and foreigners are lazy as hell
I think it is a bit unfair to say this, when foreigners like Huk practice just as much as Koreans. I would say Huk even works harder because of his constant travel. Lots of other top foreign pros have adopted a rigorous practice schedule as well.
The problem isn't that foreign pros are lazy. The problem is there aren't nearly enough foreign pros.
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
I seriously wish this misinformation would stop, because it's pure bullshit. A very select few Foreigners get nice paychecks, and they're the ones that have put in years of "sweat blood and tears". HuK, IdrA and Stephano all have spent an extreme amount of time training.
Even the worst of Koreans (ones that have never even qualified for GSL) on a team gets a house, food and utilities. That's worth at least a thousand dollars a month for most people living in 1st world countries, and that's a lot more than what most Foreign players get in monthly salary.
for the sake of being anal.
youve never lived on your own have you? 1000 a month for food housing and utilities? beyond that, more than foreign players get in monthly salary? oh you mean the salary they get on TOP of also getting housing and utilities? also, id love to see the information you cite on this wealth of knowledge you possess.
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
I seriously wish this misinformation would stop, because it's pure bullshit. A very select few Foreigners get nice paychecks, and they're the ones that have put in years of "sweat blood and tears". HuK, IdrA and Stephano all have spent an extreme amount of time training.
Even the worst of Koreans (ones that have never even qualified for GSL) on a team gets a house, food and utilities. That's worth at least a thousand dollars a month for most people living in 1st world countries, and that's a lot more than what most Foreign players get in monthly salary.
for the sake of being anal.
youve never lived on your own have you? 1000 a month for food housing and utilities?
Maybe my numbers are a bit skewed, because I live in Vancouver, which has a higher-than-average cost of living.
However, working at minimum wage full-time puts you below the poverty line in most 1st world countries. And in most 1st world countries, minimum wage gives you more than $1000 a month.
beyond that, more than foreign players get in monthly salary? oh you mean the salary they get on TOP of also getting housing and utilities? also, id love to see the information you cite on this wealth of knowledge you possess.
Foreigners get Houses now? You realize that EG was the first foreign team with a house, and that only arrived in the second half of 2011?
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
I seriously wish this misinformation would stop, because it's pure bullshit. A very select few Foreigners get nice paychecks, and they're the ones that have put in years of "sweat blood and tears". HuK, IdrA and Stephano all have spent an extreme amount of time training.
Even the worst of Koreans (ones that have never even qualified for GSL) on a team gets a house, food and utilities. That's worth at least a thousand dollars a month for most people living in 1st world countries, and that's a lot more than what most Foreign players get in monthly salary.
This is wrong. You don't know the price of living in korea obviously. There are like 12 people living in these team houses and food is very cheap in korea. I've lived in asia almost my entire life and I can assure you it's much cheaper to live there than it is in America / Europe. Why do you think koreans are pretty much begging to be on foreign teams?
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
I seriously wish this misinformation would stop, because it's pure bullshit. A very select few Foreigners get nice paychecks, and they're the ones that have put in years of "sweat blood and tears". HuK, IdrA and Stephano all have spent an extreme amount of time training.
Even the worst of Koreans (ones that have never even qualified for GSL) on a team gets a house, food and utilities. That's worth at least a thousand dollars a month for most people living in 1st world countries, and that's a lot more than what most Foreign players get in monthly salary.
This is wrong. You don't know the price of living in korea obviously. There are like 12 people living in these team houses and food is very cheap in korea. I've lived in asia almost my entire life and I can assure you it's much cheaper to live there than it is in America / Europe. Why do you think koreans are pretty much begging to be on foreign teams?
Do a little research before accusing my claims.
How about you do a little research. A former ReIGN players mentioned that their paycheck was about $700 a month.
Koreans also have a skewed view of how much money foreign teams will pay them. Sleep was looking for 2 grand a month, and that was basically seen as ludicrous.
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
I seriously wish this misinformation would stop, because it's pure bullshit. A very select few Foreigners get nice paychecks, and they're the ones that have put in years of "sweat blood and tears". HuK, IdrA and Stephano all have spent an extreme amount of time training.
Even the worst of Koreans (ones that have never even qualified for GSL) on a team gets a house, food and utilities. That's worth at least a thousand dollars a month for most people living in 1st world countries, and that's a lot more than what most Foreign players get in monthly salary.
for the sake of being anal.
youve never lived on your own have you? 1000 a month for food housing and utilities?
Maybe my numbers are a bit skewed, because I live in Vancouver, which has a higher-than-average cost of living.
However, working at minimum wage full-time puts you below the poverty line in most 1st world countries. And in most 1st world countries, minimum wage gives you more than $1000 a month.
beyond that, more than foreign players get in monthly salary? oh you mean the salary they get on TOP of also getting housing and utilities? also, id love to see the information you cite on this wealth of knowledge you possess.
Foreigners get Houses now? You realize that EG was the first foreign team with a house, and that only arrived in the second half of 2011?
Why don't you ask NonY where his team house is?
why don't you ask kennigit or bumblebee or someone with any semblance of authority on the team why the rumored TL headquarters in new york doesn't have any players in it and why no attempt has been made to get all the players in housing together? because that would involve realizing that they aren't willing, even remotely to drop everything to move in together, especially outside of korea.
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
I seriously wish this misinformation would stop, because it's pure bullshit. A very select few Foreigners get nice paychecks, and they're the ones that have put in years of "sweat blood and tears". HuK, IdrA and Stephano all have spent an extreme amount of time training.
Even the worst of Koreans (ones that have never even qualified for GSL) on a team gets a house, food and utilities. That's worth at least a thousand dollars a month for most people living in 1st world countries, and that's a lot more than what most Foreign players get in monthly salary.
for the sake of being anal.
youve never lived on your own have you? 1000 a month for food housing and utilities?
Maybe my numbers are a bit skewed, because I live in Vancouver, which has a higher-than-average cost of living.
However, working at minimum wage full-time puts you below the poverty line in most 1st world countries. And in most 1st world countries, minimum wage gives you more than $1000 a month.
beyond that, more than foreign players get in monthly salary? oh you mean the salary they get on TOP of also getting housing and utilities? also, id love to see the information you cite on this wealth of knowledge you possess.
Foreigners get Houses now? You realize that EG was the first foreign team with a house, and that only arrived in the second half of 2011?
Why don't you ask NonY where his team house is?
why don't you ask kennigit or bumblebee or someone with any semblance of authority on the team why the rumored TL headquarters in new york doesn't have any players in it and why no attempt has been made to get all the players in housing together? because that would involve realizing that they aren't willing, even remotely to drop everything to move in together, especially outside of korea.
So...basically you ignore that you tacked on a non-existent team house onto salaries, and now say that player don't want a team house?
Anybody who believes foreigners and Koreans are of equal skill level are painfully out of touch with reality and will probably not be convinced otherwise regardless of facts and data.
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
I seriously wish this misinformation would stop, because it's pure bullshit. A very select few Foreigners get nice paychecks, and they're the ones that have put in years of "sweat blood and tears". HuK, IdrA and Stephano all have spent an extreme amount of time training.
Even the worst of Koreans (ones that have never even qualified for GSL) on a team gets a house, food and utilities. That's worth at least a thousand dollars a month for most people living in 1st world countries, and that's a lot more than what most Foreign players get in monthly salary.
for the sake of being anal.
youve never lived on your own have you? 1000 a month for food housing and utilities?
Maybe my numbers are a bit skewed, because I live in Vancouver, which has a higher-than-average cost of living.
However, working at minimum wage full-time puts you below the poverty line in most 1st world countries. And in most 1st world countries, minimum wage gives you more than $1000 a month.
beyond that, more than foreign players get in monthly salary? oh you mean the salary they get on TOP of also getting housing and utilities? also, id love to see the information you cite on this wealth of knowledge you possess.
Foreigners get Houses now? You realize that EG was the first foreign team with a house, and that only arrived in the second half of 2011?
Why don't you ask NonY where his team house is?
why don't you ask kennigit or bumblebee or someone with any semblance of authority on the team why the rumored TL headquarters in new york doesn't have any players in it and why no attempt has been made to get all the players in housing together? because that would involve realizing that they aren't willing, even remotely to drop everything to move in together, especially outside of korea.
So...basically you ignore that you tacked on a non-existent team house onto salaries, and now say that player don't want a team house?
tell me, your own example. EG. you know that team you gave that has a house? did you casually forget it?
People just need to accept that Korean Starcraft 2 players are superior.
There is no deeper meaning, and in all probability it has to do with better quality training and dedication. It might also have something to do with ethnic/racial advantages that Asian people have. I'm pretty sure that Asian people (Koreans in particular) also have an advantage due to genetics and the characteristics or their ethnicity.
Sure my last point is not politically incorrect, but its the same reason you don't see an Asian person winning the 100m olympic sprinting medal. Its genetics, pure and simple.
Any geneticist will tell you that average bone density, and proportion of fast and slow-twitch muscle differs between racial groups, and even person to person. In a game like Starcraft 2 players with a large percentage of fast twitch muscle fiber (in the arms and hands) are at an advantage when it comes to perfecting mechanics (as speed of the hand is often the limiting factor). Muscle and bone composition can be a defining factor in speed and ability. Race is NOT the defining factor in the sport, but it does give Asian people, on average, a slight edge. The KR ladder is pretty much a testament to this point, as it is generally accepted that players on the Korean ladder are overall superior to the NA and EU ladders.
Its the same way that it is a fact that white people are more prone to kidney disease, while black people are more prone to high blood pressure; in that its not racist, just a documented biological fact.
I can already tell that people are going to dismisses this as racist. I am not a racist and I do not conciser what I have written to be racist. Just know that its not racist, merely race-related. There is nothing wrong with saying that the average Asian/black/white person displays certain characteristics that slightly differ from that of other races, as on the basis of it, this is pretty obvious and generally accepted. I'm sorry if this offends anyone, as it is not my intention, I just thought that this post would help contribute to the discussion.
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
I seriously wish this misinformation would stop, because it's pure bullshit. A very select few Foreigners get nice paychecks, and they're the ones that have put in years of "sweat blood and tears". HuK, IdrA and Stephano all have spent an extreme amount of time training.
Even the worst of Koreans (ones that have never even qualified for GSL) on a team gets a house, food and utilities. That's worth at least a thousand dollars a month for most people living in 1st world countries, and that's a lot more than what most Foreign players get in monthly salary.
for the sake of being anal.
youve never lived on your own have you? 1000 a month for food housing and utilities?
Maybe my numbers are a bit skewed, because I live in Vancouver, which has a higher-than-average cost of living.
However, working at minimum wage full-time puts you below the poverty line in most 1st world countries. And in most 1st world countries, minimum wage gives you more than $1000 a month.
beyond that, more than foreign players get in monthly salary? oh you mean the salary they get on TOP of also getting housing and utilities? also, id love to see the information you cite on this wealth of knowledge you possess.
Foreigners get Houses now? You realize that EG was the first foreign team with a house, and that only arrived in the second half of 2011?
Why don't you ask NonY where his team house is?
why don't you ask kennigit or bumblebee or someone with any semblance of authority on the team why the rumored TL headquarters in new york doesn't have any players in it and why no attempt has been made to get all the players in housing together? because that would involve realizing that they aren't willing, even remotely to drop everything to move in together, especially outside of korea.
So...basically you ignore that you tacked on a non-existent team house onto salaries, and now say that player don't want a team house?
tell me, your own example. EG. you know that team you gave that has a house? did you casually forget it?
So, one team? You scoff at the idea that a team house is worth more than what most foreign players make from a paycheck, and you point at the minority to prove it?
Besides, if you're trying to say that foreigners make more money for less work, you're doing a terrible job pointing at a foreign team that basically devotes a shitload of time and effort into SC2.
On April 07 2012 03:54 Ventor wrote: Foreigners are not even remotely close to being as good as koreans. Most of the wins they get are on online tournaments where they have a lag advantage. In my opinion, people should be attracted to skilled players rather than 'personalities'. Koreans sweat blood and tears to become as good as they can and foreigners are lazy as hell and still get paid more. If esports is going to ever take off, this needs to stop.
I seriously wish this misinformation would stop, because it's pure bullshit. A very select few Foreigners get nice paychecks, and they're the ones that have put in years of "sweat blood and tears". HuK, IdrA and Stephano all have spent an extreme amount of time training.
Even the worst of Koreans (ones that have never even qualified for GSL) on a team gets a house, food and utilities. That's worth at least a thousand dollars a month for most people living in 1st world countries, and that's a lot more than what most Foreign players get in monthly salary.
for the sake of being anal.
youve never lived on your own have you? 1000 a month for food housing and utilities?
Maybe my numbers are a bit skewed, because I live in Vancouver, which has a higher-than-average cost of living.
However, working at minimum wage full-time puts you below the poverty line in most 1st world countries. And in most 1st world countries, minimum wage gives you more than $1000 a month.
beyond that, more than foreign players get in monthly salary? oh you mean the salary they get on TOP of also getting housing and utilities? also, id love to see the information you cite on this wealth of knowledge you possess.
Foreigners get Houses now? You realize that EG was the first foreign team with a house, and that only arrived in the second half of 2011?
Why don't you ask NonY where his team house is?
why don't you ask kennigit or bumblebee or someone with any semblance of authority on the team why the rumored TL headquarters in new york doesn't have any players in it and why no attempt has been made to get all the players in housing together? because that would involve realizing that they aren't willing, even remotely to drop everything to move in together, especially outside of korea.
So...basically you ignore that you tacked on a non-existent team house onto salaries, and now say that player don't want a team house?
tell me, your own example. EG. you know that team you gave that has a house? did you casually forget it?
So, one team? You scoff at the idea that a team house is worth more than what most foreign players make from a paycheck, and you point at the minority to prove it?
Besides, if you're trying to say that foreigners make more money for less work, you're doing a terrible job pointing at a foreign team that basically devotes a shitload of time and effort into SC2.
you arent even staying consistent to your own argument at this point. it's your own fucking example. and your second section doesn't even make sense.
On April 07 2012 00:04 Mr Showtime wrote: There's a handful of Koreans at the very top that nobody can compete with on a regular basis, but in general, the top foreigners can compete with the top Koreans now.
top foreigners can't even make code A. so your statement is not true.
Stephano and huk / naniwa can take series off top Koreans, but others have shown jack nothing.
so if you mean by top foreigners by those three I mentioned sure.
but koreans have like 12312321 players and up and comers you've never heard of.
Please show me the long list of foreigners who dedicate their career to making it in GSL. Nobody does. The top foreigners are defeating the top level Koreans (with exception to the few at the very top) regularly enough that the skill level seems similar.
Lol okay so there are 5 people who can regularly compete with the top50 Koreans and that somehow means the skill level between the Korean scene and foreign scene is similar?
On April 07 2012 04:32 heyoka wrote: For what it's worth Wax set over/under for "number of nonKoreans in top 8" at 0.5 and no one we have talked to at IPL has taken the over yet.
I wouldn't take the over either. the Mental barrier is still there for foreigners
The skill gap is growing, not shrinking. Have you seen the MLGs recently? When the GSL players show up almost all the foreigners just lose. We cheer and go crazy if a foreigner beats ONE of them!
No, if anything Koreans are starting to pull away. Any chance foreigners have competing (beyond the top 5 or so) is due to SC2's flaws in game design and map design.
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
It's funny because I actually feel exactly the opposite. I think the top foreigners can compete with top Koreans, but after that, there seems to be a big dropoff in foreigner skill, with a much smaller dropoff in Korean skill. Really interesting how two people can see something so differently.
On April 07 2012 04:41 0neder wrote: No, if anything Koreans are starting to pull away. Any chance foreigners have competing (beyond the top 5 or so) is due to SC2's flaws in game design and map design.
lolI'm pretty sure you just made some1 foam at the mouth
Lol okay so there are 5 people who can regularly compete with the top50 Koreans and that somehow means the skill level between the Korean scene and foreign scene is similar?
It means the Korean scene is so much bigger that they can field 50 players who dedicate the same time, effort, and structured practice as the five foreigners who do the same.
Where are the up-and-coming foreign players?
Why have the top Koreans always been in a state of flux, whereas the top foreigners are the same people they were in Beta?
I was about to post this reply in another thread but it closed. Seems like this thread is better, so here it is in it's c&p glory.
Most foreigners are able to get by on personality alone and become very marketable. Think of people like Incontrol. People don't watch Destiny or Catz or Dragon because they are Starcraft Gods, they watch them because they are entertaining. Which is what they are selling, entertainment. It's much easier to stand out in an assembly of aluminum robots when you have a golden face.Perhaps some foreigners are becoming complicit and reaching their own plateau when they realize you can get by with subpar practice regimes while still making money. Whereas in Korean the competition is extremely fierce, forcing you to practice 12+ days just to stay with the local competition.
Or perhaps it would be better to compare Starcraft to another industry. Such as the Hollywood Machine vs cinema from other countries. What attributes make Hollywood/LA the premiere geographical location to both write, finance, cast, film, and edit a movie or create a TV show? It has ideal weather for shooting. A supportive local government (getting permits to film, closing roads, etc). Most importantly, it has a very large specialized labor pool ranging from actors to prop makers to writers to cinematographers to editors to anything you need. Sure there are certain production companies, notably Peter Jackson or George Lucas, that are able to produce content on their own in different countries/states; but these are the anomalies not the norms. The fact is, if you want to make it in the entertainment industry 999,999,999 out of 1,000,000,000 you need to move to LA.
The analogy to Starcraft is that Seoul has the infrastructure and sufficiently sized talent pool attributing to its success as the capital of SC. If you want to become better at SC on a professional level, you move to Korea. Which is why HuK, NaNiwa, and Idra practice there. Of course you have people like Stephano, but he is an anomaly.
The same question can be ask of Silicon Valley or Wall Street or The Triangle or Scotland Yard.
On April 07 2012 04:38 Angel_ wrote: you arent even staying consistent to your own argument at this point. it's your own fucking example. and your second section doesn't even make sense.
I'm perfectly consistent. Most foreigners get a paycheck that's worth less than a team house. And the ones that get a big paycheck have put in a huge amount of time and effort.
The lie that "foreigners get paid more for less work" is complete bullshit.
Of the millions of copies of Starcraft sold, nearly HALF were sold in Korea. For every Huk there are 10 or more Korean players as good or better. The 12-year history of e-sports there has fostered the highest level of competition possible in an extremely concentrated region. Add to this a culture that has developed a near-obsession with accomplishment through hard work (think of the educational system) and you get an environment incomparable to any other.
On April 07 2012 05:07 rift wrote: Of the millions of copies of Starcraft sold, nearly HALF were sold in Korea. For every Huk there are 10 or more Korean players as good or better. The 12-year history of e-sports there has fostered the highest level of competition possible in an extremely concentrated region. Add to this a culture that has developed a near-obsession with accomplishment through hard work (think of the educational system) and you get an environment incomparable to any other.
The End
Pretty much my thoughts exactly.
Also, we haven't seen the best of the best in regards to RTS enter the Starcraft 2 world yet such as JD, Bisu, Flash, Stork and all the other top BW pros which is when this conversation of foreigners and the skill gap will really show it's true colors.
On April 07 2012 04:38 Angel_ wrote: you arent even staying consistent to your own argument at this point. it's your own fucking example. and your second section doesn't even make sense.
I'm perfectly consistent. Most foreigners get a paycheck that's worth less than a team house. And the ones that get a big paycheck have put in a huge amount of time and effort.
The lie that "foreigners get paid more for less work" is complete bullshit.
You have no idea so I hope you stop making yourself look like an idiot. 90% of foreigners are lazy and dont practice as much as koreans. Plain and simple as to why koreans are better. So please move along.
People like huk and stephano may be nipping at top korean heels, but the vast majority of the foreign pro scene is still being left completely in the dust.
I wonder what Koreans would think if they knew you guys refer to people from your own countries as foreigners. They would probably think what a bunch of retards the non Korean SC community is.
On April 07 2012 00:04 Mr Showtime wrote: There's a handful of Koreans at the very top that nobody can compete with on a regular basis, but in general, the top foreigners can compete with the top Koreans now.
top foreigners can't even make code A. so your statement is not true.
Stephano and huk / naniwa can take series off top Koreans, but others have shown jack nothing.
so if you mean by top foreigners by those three I mentioned sure.
but koreans have like 12312321 players and up and comers you've never heard of.
Please show me the long list of foreigners who dedicate their career to making it in GSL. Nobody does. The top foreigners are defeating the top level Koreans (with exception to the few at the very top) regularly enough that the skill level seems similar.
Lol okay so there are 5 people who can regularly compete with the top50 Koreans and that somehow means the skill level between the Korean scene and foreign scene is similar?
Nobody made that claim. You should read first. There's far more than 5 foreigners that can compete. Do some research, and stop making ignorant claims.
On April 07 2012 05:39 Swift118 wrote: I wonder what Koreans would think if they knew you guys refer to people from your own countries as foreigners. They would probably think what a bunch of retards the non Korean SC community is.
its only natural, modern starcraft esports we have now originated from korea and serious foreigners went to korea to play (grr, smuft, elky, idra, etc.). i'm not sure why you think non-koreans being called foreigners is a bad thing.
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
That and the fact they're practicing instead of reading forums.
Not saying you aren't working your ass off but nevertheless this is how it is.
Best Koreans better than best foreigners, but I'd definitely say that the gap has closed considerably since BW, that Koreans can no longer take foreigner lightly.
There also needs to be a "post # requirement" before people are allowed start new topics.
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
That and the fact they're practicing instead of reading forums.
Not saying you aren't working your ass off but nevertheless this is how it is.
last time i respond to idiots like you who dont know anything, They read playxp.com 24/7 and teamliquid
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
Don't worry about the haters, Naniwa. Hopefully you can assemble a trusted circle of quality players/practice partners to even the playing field somewhat on the preparation/analysis front. You have the talent, just maintain the belief. And get the support network in place to show your skills!
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
i haven't watched much sc2 but i'd think the upsets are more from the volatility of sc2 where a lot of games can be coin flippy. and because of that coin flippiness, the "better" player can't always win. all ins are very strong. how many times have foreigners won by outplaying their opponent? only guys like naniwa, huk, and stephano are capable of that. none of the other foreigners are even close to their level.
On April 07 2012 00:04 Mr Showtime wrote: There's a handful of Koreans at the very top that nobody can compete with on a regular basis, but in general, the top foreigners can compete with the top Koreans now.
top foreigners can't even make code A. so your statement is not true.
Stephano and huk / naniwa can take series off top Koreans, but others have shown jack nothing.
so if you mean by top foreigners by those three I mentioned sure.
but koreans have like 12312321 players and up and comers you've never heard of.
Please show me the long list of foreigners who dedicate their career to making it in GSL. Nobody does. The top foreigners are defeating the top level Koreans (with exception to the few at the very top) regularly enough that the skill level seems similar.
Lol okay so there are 5 people who can regularly compete with the top50 Koreans and that somehow means the skill level between the Korean scene and foreign scene is similar?
Nobody made that claim. You should read first. There's far more than 5 foreigners that can compete. Do some research, and stop making ignorant claims.
By all means please start naming the far-exceeding limit of 5 foreigners who can actually compete for 1st at an event with Koreans in it.
Lol okay so there are 5 people who can regularly compete with the top50 Koreans and that somehow means the skill level between the Korean scene and foreign scene is similar?
It means the Korean scene is so much bigger that they can field 50 players who dedicate the same time, effort, and structured practice as the five foreigners who do the same.
Where are the up-and-coming foreign players?
Why have the top Koreans always been in a state of flux, whereas the top foreigners are the same people they were in Beta?
This is so ridiculous lol. Apparently the Korean SC2 Scene is bigger than all of EU/CN/AM/SEA
That's why KR has more top pros than all other regions combined... duhhh
No it hasn't, to be honest you can see just from results in GSL, only foreigners to ever actually do notably well in code s is idra, huk, naniwa and torch that's it. The practice regime difference will maintain the gap between skills.
On April 07 2012 09:07 DashedHopes wrote: No it hasn't, to be honest you can see just from results in GSL, only foreigners to ever actually do notably well in code s is idra, huk, naniwa and torch that's it. The practice regime difference will maintain the gap between skills.
torch was open season instead of code s. and you forgot jinro who got to semifinals of code s and open season
On April 07 2012 09:07 DashedHopes wrote: No it hasn't, to be honest you can see just from results in GSL, only foreigners to ever actually do notably well in code s is idra, huk, naniwa and torch that's it. The practice regime difference will maintain the gap between skills.
the only foreigners with good results inn code s were idra, huk and jinro :/
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
That and the fact they're practicing instead of reading forums.
Not saying you aren't working your ass off but nevertheless this is how it is.
Wow, I don't even know what to say about this post. Naniwa is posting in this thread therefore he isn't spending enough time practicing? The only way to explain a post so devoid of logic is that you wanted to get a reaction out of a pro...or are just a drama queen or something. TL needs more posters like you bud.
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
That and the fact they're practicing instead of reading forums.
Not saying you aren't working your ass off but nevertheless this is how it is.
last time i respond to idiots like you who dont know anything, They read playxp.com 24/7 and teamliquid
Seriously, there's no need to shit on the foreign players who take the time to try and get really good and take the time to post on forums from time to time. My understanding of Playxp is that pros post more often there than the foreigners post here on TL.
Keep up the good work in Korea Nani, I really hope you find more practice partners who don't leak your replays
On April 07 2012 05:59 wei2coolman wrote: Best Koreans better than best foreigners, but I'd definitely say that the gap has closed considerably since BW, that Koreans can no longer take foreigner lightly.
There also needs to be a "post # requirement" before people are allowed start new topics.
Why? I don't understand this mentality of some of the veteran posters, do you want this to become a site full of elitism? Yes probably more than half of people with >200 posts make poor topics but why should there be a minimum post count? There are plenty who just lurk and make a post here and there why should they have to make 500 posts before being able to make a topic?
If someone makes a poor op/controversial op its up to the moderators to shut them down (which they do a great job of btw) But i am just going to assume you made this post out of sheer fatigue. I do see your point and i agree with you to a degree but i hope Teamliquid doesn't become like that one day. I love this sites for its equality, someone with 10 posts can post something just as insightful as someone with <1000 posts.
Edit: After looking at your post history let me just say this, i would rather someone have 10 meaningful quality posts rather than 2000 one liners -.-
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
I thought the same way as you for a while. Willingness to train isn't everything and behind the apparent mask of being kind and nice, koreans are a highly proud and protective people. When Koreans will truly open their arms to train with foreigners, we will see a change
It seems this same thread is created every month. The gap is probably getting worse between the top koreans and top foreigners. Also, there is an extreme lack of "top foreigners" now. NA can make as many leagues as they want, but all we see are Korean champions.
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
and naniwa, who's fault is that really? that foreign coaches don't do what they optimally should to help their players? that foreign players dont work harder to network and practice together? im not denying at all that that certainly is part of the reason, but i dont think it's all, and it's certainly not a problem you cant point at the koreans.
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
That and the fact they're practicing instead of reading forums.
Not saying you aren't working your ass off but nevertheless this is how it is.
last time i respond to idiots like you who dont know anything, They read playxp.com 24/7 and teamliquid
Just focus on your own game nani, you cant change the present situation, and you have been doing good on your grind. Keep it up
I don't think it's so much that foreign skill has "caught up" with the koreans, so much as the mechanics of the game allows lesser disciplined and "skilled" players to be put on an even level with koreans. Not to disrespect foreigners who are standing up against them koreans, good job on them. I just don't think it's anything more than the game itself. However, now that the game is exploding in the western gaming community a good deal, I feel that skill is catching up at a reasonable pace.
On April 06 2012 17:13 WolfintheSheep wrote: I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the GSL is a format that favours training infrastructure and structured team support. Koreans will dominate GSL, because they're currently the only ones with that kind of backing.
In any other tournament format, Foreigners can and will pull of frequent upsets. They won't consistently beat top Koreans four matchups in a row, but the skill gap is close enough that a good day can lead to good Foreign results.
Are Koreans still the top players? Without a doubt. Is that skill level insurmountable? The results speak for themselves - no.
Practically "any other tournament format" means that koreans travel across the world and most of them rely on a translator for everything. Just because some foreigners, who are more used to traveling and can get by on english, do well in a few matches at MLG doesn't mean that the skillgap isn't large.
The GSL is the only place where jetlag, a messy schedule, shitty living, and fatigue doesn't affect the play, generally. Most people fly out for weekend tournaments a few days beforehand, with all that entails, while foreigners often spend months in korea but still can't get anywhere in the GSL. (most stay in a teamhouse too, but that doesn't seem to help)
Holy crap, the number of excuses here...
How about Tournaments that take place in China? You know, a place that is closer to Korea than any Western or European country?
How about when Foreigners and Koreans both travel to an MLG from the exact same country. Or I guess Koreans just have bigger problems with Jet Lag, right?
How about European tournaments where the primary language doesn't favour Koreans or North Americans?
How about the fact that you just brought up language barriers, and completely ignore that Foreigners living in Korea are surrounded by people they can't communicate with well for several months?
GSL is the only format where you can spend weeks preparing for a single opponent. That favours whoever has the best infrastructure and training support. The attitude that any tournament result that isn't GSL is meaningless is stupid, because all you're saying is "You could never beat a Korean who has a week to train for you and have his coach and teammates spend a week analyzing you".
you do realise that the reason koreans do better in gsl is because they actually have 15 practice partners of each race and a coach who analyzes their opponents?. what do you think we have ? .. we have to do everything ourselves and its not that easy to get practice partners 24/7 who you can trust to not leak replays beacuse of the "Korean pride" which means that most of them will stab you in the back to help a korean friend if they can. but sure.. lets keep saying thats the fair way to judge whos better !
quoted wrong person but never the less this is how it is.
and naniwa, who's fault is that really? that foreign coaches don't do what they optimally should to help their players? that foreign players dont work harder to network and practice together? im not denying at all that that certainly is part of the reason, but i dont think it's all, and it's certainly not a problem you cant point at the koreans.
the point is: the koreans would be stupid to forego their infrastructure advantage. and the quality of practice partners etc. is not as easily replicated for foreign teams. koreans have a ton of available awesome practice partners, for example up and comers who want access to a pro team. just living their as a foreigner is not enough if you don't fell / are not 100 % integrated and don't have access to the superb training infrastructure.
EPT
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