On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
If I have right mind set then I guess I can be MVP too. lol
I think the reason koreans are better are a wide range of strats and also the fact they are more consistent! Not to mention they have done strats so many times they have it to a key, how amny times do we see foreigners mess up a risky strat because of lack of practice?
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves?
What? No. Not at all. If anything, MKP's recent performances have been so spectacular that I don't think any current foreign pro will reach the level he's currently at, let alone where he will be in a month or 6 months...
If foreign pros haven't had their success yet, what makes you think it's gonna get any better once BW organizations/players start making the switch?
Look at the trend in recruitment... every foreign team is scrambling to claim Korean players.
On April 07 2012 01:28 Necro)Phagist( wrote: [quote] I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse.
Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell.
I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across.
The reason Koreans are better are for multiple reasons. 1. The average work ethic of a korean pro-gamer is higher then that of a foreigner, 12-16 hour practice days(16 on the high end for a brood war player), versus 6 to 8, with a few foreigners in the korean practice range.
2. Starcraft 2's metagame evolves and shifts IN KOREA, with few exceptions, builds are developed and countered and figured out there before anywhere else in the world, so they are able to take more out of games and play better styles before foreigners get wind of it.
4. Korean players actually work as a team and do coaching and have people that analyze oponents play.
I'm sure their are more reasons but this is basically it. Koreans on average have much better mechanics then foreigners- the peak of foreign mechanics are Stephano and MajOr, the peak of Korean mechanics are MMA and forGG (just a few examples)- they are faster and better palyers mechanically, their foundations are stronger, they never miss any production, you'll see PERFECT, absolutely PERFECT mechanics when the broodwar pros, specifically Jaedong, switch over.
Their may be a mental block when players play against koreans, but its more a tangible difference in skill between foreigners and Koreans
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Thing is, for every top-foreigner there are like 5-10 top-koreans with the same skill level that are practicing against each other in a good training environment.
On April 07 2012 01:44 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
OK. So according to you how have foreigners come to this conclusion that Koreans are better? In the early days of competitive RTS (say around 1999), players like Slayer and Grrrr... were better than the best Koreans. So they had no reason to believe that Koreans were superior players. At some point however, Koreans took over as the best RTS players in the world. This transition is not explained by your theory that it's all psychological. There must have been some skill involved there.
Until you wouldn't be surprised to see a foreigner win a major event or even expect to see one in the finals of a tournament with lots of Koreans, a skill gap wll exist.
By this measure, I think there is a group of foreigners whose skill is on par with top Koreans, but the group of Koreans that you would not be surprised to see in the top 10 at IPL4 is far bigger than the group of foreigners.
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
This is basically my opinion. Though this was much more eloquently stated and historically accurate . My point of view is that I saw at the IPTL (or whatever the team league is called) that teams weren't great could take on even amazing looking players. I saw people who are absolutely great play other absolutely great players, but the top 1% of Koreans could still dominate the top 1% of foreigners. HOWEVER, the median players were around the same skill level, i repeat, around not necessarily at exactly but lower or higher depending on the game. People like beastyqt (an example not an absolute) who is a great player, but not someone in the top 1% of pro foreigners play against mid level koreans and win. Basically we are getting to their, but not fully their yet and it may still be a bit of time, but eventually unless we get a kickout of foreigners like what KeSPA did, the foreigners will eventually come to be at a level on par with koreans, like Stephano has shown recently.
On April 07 2012 02:44 Doso wrote: Thing is, for every top-foreigner there are like 5-10 top-koreans with the same skill level that are practicing against each other in a good training environment.
Great point, it means, Jisall, that Koreans skill will increase faster then foreigners.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves?
I didn't answer this because it is an exaggeration. Obviously a bronze player has less skill then a GM player. But if your trying to compare GM players to koreans and Bronze players to Foreigners, that is a stretch.
I don't get all this foreign korean skill gap in SC2 the best foreigners have always been able to compete against the best koreans losing a little more often than not but, competing nevertheless there is just way more korean depth.
I think the results will show the truth about this issue. Last MLG was dominated by Koreans. If we have a situation where a major tournament is more evenly split at the top between Koreans and Foreigners then we can argue that Foreign Skill has caught up. At this point, we are not there, Koreans still dominate the big tournaments. One or two Foreigners like Huk, Naniwa or Stephano placing in the prize-money cannot change the overall Korean hegemony by themselves. More Foreigners need to step up too.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact.
On April 07 2012 01:52 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves?
I didn't answer this because it is an exaggeration. Obviously a bronze player has less skill then a GM player. But if your trying to compare GM players to koreans and Bronze players to Foreigners, that is a stretch.
Try responding on why the factors i posted in my post don't matter at all and the skill difference is purely psyhchological.
On April 07 2012 01:52 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Well as some asked earlier. Do you think a bronze player is worse than a GM player based on skill or purely due to psychological reasons of them thinking the GM player is better than themselves?
I didn't answer this because it is an exaggeration. Obviously a bronze player has less skill then a GM player. But if your trying to compare GM players to koreans and Bronze players to Foreigners, that is a stretch.
Yeah, I'm not comparing foreigners to bronze, but I believe koreans are on a diff tier. To simplify, if foreigners are GM level, then I believe Koreans are on a tier above GM, but that gap is not as big as GM to bronze, but there is still a gap nonetheless.
On April 07 2012 01:52 Canucklehead wrote: [quote]
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
one question, do you or do you not think that koreans are better than foreigners right now?
I think that the reason Koreans are winning more game's then Foreigners has nothing to do with skill, but rather a mental barrier.
Wait, so just to be absolutely clear, you think that there is no skill difference between top foreigners and top Koreans and it's only due to psychological reasons that foreigners are less successful?
Yes. The psychological reasons being that foreigners have the consensus that Koreans are better.
Better is a value judgement. Value judgements are subjective and psychological. Therefore Koreans being better is a psychological judgement, not a fact.
Go to TLPD count Korean tournament wins and count foreigner tournament wins. Koreans own white dudes. Sorry man.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
That's right but it has nothing to do with the fact that koreans are better at SC2 right now.
It is because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I'm saying that enough people believe that what your saying it true, that it is skewing the result because of the mental aspect of the game.
No, I still disagree on your viewpoint. I think they're using it as scapegoat for hard work and also for losing. They lost because the korean was better and even if they played at 100%, they still would lose. This gives them an excuse to not work harder because they don't want to put in the time and hours to get better and can always fall back on the he was korean excuse.
Also, I disagree with your opinion that because you believe that to be true, that it becomes true. I think that works in some cases but not here. I believe the sky is blue, not because that's what I believe, but that's what it is. At this point in time, I believe koreans are better, not because I believe, but because they are today. The results back that up. Whether that changes in the future only time will tell.
I can respect your opinion on this since for you it is about hard work. If you don't win your not working hard enough. Your taking responsibility for the loss and not blaming it on someone else. It is that mindset that I am trying to get across.
The reason Koreans are better are for multiple reasons. 1. The average work ethic of a korean pro-gamer is higher then that of a foreigner, 12-16 hour practice days(16 on the high end for a brood war player), versus 6 to 8, with a few foreigners in the korean practice range.
2. Starcraft 2's metagame evolves and shifts IN KOREA, with few exceptions, builds are developed and countered and figured out there before anywhere else in the world, so they are able to take more out of games and play better styles before foreigners get wind of it.
4. Korean players actually work as a team and do coaching and have people that analyze oponents play.
I'm sure their are more reasons but this is basically it. Koreans on average have much better mechanics then foreigners- the peak of foreign mechanics are Stephano and MajOr, the peak of Korean mechanics are MMA and forGG (just a few examples)- they are faster and better palyers mechanically, their foundations are stronger, they never miss any production, you'll see PERFECT, absolutely PERFECT mechanics when the broodwar pros, specifically Jaedong, switch over.
Their may be a mental block when players play against koreans, but its more a tangible difference in skill between foreigners and Koreans
I don't listen to Kpop, but I'll concede to you on that lol.
Stephano doesn't follow the Korean model of practicing, he practices for around 4-6 hours a day. That would be my counter-point to your first point.
Using Stephano again, his mass ling did not start in Korea. The meta-game revolves around Korea because people believe Koreans to be the best, so they have to learn what Koreans do in order to compete. Its again this psychological barrier.
EPT
. My point of view is that I saw at the IPTL (or whatever the team league is called) that teams weren't great could take on even amazing looking players. I saw people who are absolutely great play other absolutely great players, but the top 1% of Koreans could still dominate the top 1% of foreigners. HOWEVER, the median players were around the same skill level, i repeat, around not necessarily at exactly but lower or higher depending on the game. People like beastyqt (an example not an absolute) who is a great player, but not someone in the top 1% of pro foreigners play against mid level koreans and win. Basically we are getting to their, but not fully their yet and it may still be a bit of time, but eventually unless we get a kickout of foreigners like what KeSPA did, the foreigners will eventually come to be at a level on par with koreans, like Stephano has shown recently.
