I don't see the skillcap being too large in overall. Well after these big events we can try to read the current skill scaling, and after IPL, we hopefully see some rising foreigners, or just the standard 4 koreans top.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
I think it depends on if the bw switch will remain insular or not. I'm not sure if it's been stated yet if bw pros would attend foreign tourneys or just stick to their proleague. I sure hope they attend foreign tourneys.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Don't deal in absolutes. Koreans' practice system is better, but it's by no means the best. There are always ways to improve.
This is what I am trying to say. People deal in absolute's when they say that Koreans are better, and it's hurting their gameplay mentally.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality. Look, I hope to win the lottery. Doesn't mean it's going to happen.
I may be on the opposite spectrum, but you're on the lottery spectrum.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
I think it depends on if the bw switch will remain insular or not. I'm not sure if it's been stated yet if bw pros would attend foreign tourneys or just stick to their proleague. I sure hope they attend foreign tourneys.
I don't see how that make sense Koreans don't need to go to foreign tourneys because Korean tournaments are the best with the best players foreign tourament means nothing.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I don't understand what you are saying. You are saying that Koreans are better because we think they are better? -_-"
Exactly.
um no, they are better because they ARE BETTER
you have no idea what you're talking about.
what you say makes 0 sense and it goes against any common sense in any sport.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
This is an interesting take, because I thought it might be exactly the opposite. My thought was that it seems like a given Korean is likely to perform better than a given foreigner because even the less than top Koreans are training in top-like environments. So even the mid-level Korean pros have training which mid-level foreign pros can only wish they had.
I could definitely be wrong, but it seems to me that the key difference is still attitude and training, both of which foreigners lack more because of the lack of esports infrastructure than anything. I'm totally willing to concede that you likely have a far better insight into this topic than I do though.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
I think it depends on if the bw switch will remain insular or not. I'm not sure if it's been stated yet if bw pros would attend foreign tourneys or just stick to their proleague. I sure hope they attend foreign tourneys.
I don't see how that make sense Koreans don't need to go to foreign tourneys because Korean tournaments are the best with the best players foreign tourament means nothing.
Oh, I don't mean it won't affect the skill gap. I mean if they stay insular that change won't have any impact on the foreign scene if foreigners never play the bw pros. Ie, foreigners don't have to worry about bw pros taking their monies!!...just the current korean sc2 pros.
On April 07 2012 01:47 fox77 wrote: The main problem is that with bw dying bw players will move to sc2 increasing the gap. There are players in bw who will be bonjwa or have the potential the skill gap will only increase.
Still, is the skill gap increasing 'a problem'?
For foreigner players probably.
And for the people like you and I who support this scene and watch games?
Even if the top 20 was half Korean half foreigner, it would point towards Koreans being better - remember that there are far more foreigners than Koreans in the tournament.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
I agree to an extent because I actually think people use that mentality as a built in excuse in order to not work harder.
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
Maybe, but there is no evidence WHATSOEVER that foreign pros think that they are not good enough. This is a discussion between fans ffs
On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote: There never was a skill gap. Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better. The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
Explain IPL3. I like using Stephano as an example because of his attitude. Focus on your own gameplay to get better, don't focus on your opponents "superior skill". BW and SC2 may be based in the same universe, but they are hardly the same game. Edit: Koreans are people, not starcraft gods.
I never said they were starcraft gods... but they are better, Stephano winning one tournament does not mean there is no skill gap. Koreans have won almost every single tournament since they started coming out here, foreigners are lucky to last more then 1 season in GSL lately. How can you even try to deny that their is a skill gap?
I'm not saying they are better just because they are Korean... I'm saying they are better because they practice more and practice smarter. Until foreigners do the same, the Koreans will keep getting better.
By saying the practice smarter, your saying that Koreans practice schedule is the best way to get better at starcraft. So if you don't practice like a korean then you cannot be as good as one. Your proving my point by assuming the Korean model is the strongest.
Well, I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove because no one is saying the korean model is the best without proof. The results have backed that assertion, so it's not up for debate.
If you have already closed the debate on the topic then there is no sense in discussing this with you.
Well you actually haven't brought up any points in this debate except wishful thinking. Hopeless dreaming is also counter productive. At some point, you do need to look at facts and reality.
My point is if you go in thinking you are not good enough, and that the other person is better, it is a self-fulfilling prophecy, you will lose.
ah I see so in the end you are only arguing about the foreigner's mindset,correct?
but in reality every one of them actually do believe that they can beat Koreans and they still do, but thinking you can beat them is just a small step and will mean absolutely nothing without proper training.
how does less initial skill + less practice = foreigners ever being on the level of koreans...just nonsense. Even alot of the koreans who weren't progamers before sc2 are much better than most foreigners except a few and thats bcause they live in team houses and practice more.
They practice more with better players...practice more with better players...practice more with better playerss... get it?
EPT
