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On April 07 2012 00:52 Xirroh wrote:
Foreigners,
maybe 5 could make it out of R32 in Code S
there are a few more who would be code A
A lot could compete in Code B. (offline)
Overall, Koreans will be winning NA championships for a long time.
Maybe 5 could make it out of RO32 in Code S? No. Maybe Stephano and Huk..no one else.
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Not even close, almost all results suggest the gap is still staggering.
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On April 07 2012 00:54 CeroFail wrote:
I don't think there are that many foreigners who have consistently beat high level Koreans. There are some though but until they start hitting Code S and what not I wouldn't say that they've caught up just yet.
Off the top of my head - Stephano, HuK, Naniwa, Ret, Morrow, Thorzain, SaSe, Sen, Sheth, and yes, IdrA are able to take games off top Koreans in macro games.
The problem with this list is that it's got one new talent - Stephano - who came up during the 1.5 years SC 2 has been out. The rest were there at the beginning of SC 2, and are still there today.
The foreigner's scene is shallow and stagnant. It has no depth and no future.
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Nope... even looking at ladder Grandmaster, KR GM is >> NA GM by a good deal... the mean of KR skill is still much higher
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On April 07 2012 00:56 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:52 Xirroh wrote:
Foreigners,
maybe 5 could make it out of R32 in Code S
there are a few more who would be code A
A lot could compete in Code B. (offline)
Overall, Koreans will be winning NA championships for a long time. Maybe 5 could make it out of RO32 in Code S? No. Maybe Stephano and Huk..no one else.
i think naniwa has a good chance of getting to the ro16 this season considering his group. He's showed in the past he can beat MVP no problem, Ganzi's TvP is rather poor. only one i see giving him trouble will be puzzle.
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There never was a skill gap.
Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
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Top foreginers = Code A competition, Top Koreans = Code S, obviously :p
Important note: a big reason why I feel this way in light of some tournament results in foreign lands is that sure, you can beat a jet Code-S player in a random best of 3 and he's never heard of you, never studied your replays, likely doesn't even know who you are. You, on the other hand, probably have, because he's an SC2 god and you're just a foreign pro, so to you he's very well known. Play in the GSL, however, and you have days if not weeks to prepare for a single match. That Korean player is now going to sit down and wach a million of your replays, do a million practice matches specifically designed to exploit your flaws and publicly humiliate you. If nothing else, Korean pros, with enough time to prepare, are going to outwork you in preparation for a big match, and that makes all the difference.
I guess a better question here is, which tournament format proves you to be the better player? One like the GSL, where you have days and weeks between each match to prepare? Or one like MLG/Dreamhack, where you just sit down and play out the whole thing in a day or two? If it's the former, Koreans are still WAY ahead of the game. If it's the latter, then I still give it to Koreans (Stephano or Huk vs. any Code S player in a best of 9 is going down, though they could pull off a best of 3 with some luck and if the other guy is jet-lagged enough.)
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On April 07 2012 00:59 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:54 CeroFail wrote:
I don't think there are that many foreigners who have consistently beat high level Koreans. There are some though but until they start hitting Code S and what not I wouldn't say that they've caught up just yet. Off the top of my head - Stephano, HuK, Naniwa, Ret, Morrow, Thorzain, SaSe, Sen, Sheth, and yes, IdrA are able to take games off top Koreans in macro games. The problem with this list is that it's got one new talent - Stephano - who came up during the 1.5 years SC 2 has been out. The rest were there at the beginning of SC 2, and are still there today. The foreigner's scene is shallow and stagnant. It has no depth and no future.
I'm sorry but what? The post you quoted asked the question about consistently beating players, not occasionally taking games off them
The key term is consistently beat top Koreans. This year alone Idra and Morrow have failed to make it out of Code A Ro32, let alone beat 'top koreans'
Huk is back in Code A, Naniwa is only in Code S courtesy of a free seeding. Sen, Sheth, Thorzain, SaSe and Ret have all tried and failed (but I still love them all for it). Yeah, they may win a match or two in a team league, and Ret rolled through Parting and Oz at the Redbull Lan for no prizemoney, but the fact is that GSL is the only competition that matters, purely because they are the only league that gives players time to prepare for a match and therein show who is the best.
Irregardless, all of those guys do and will continue to picking up the odd set off korean players, but none of them to date have consistently knocked off top Korean players. Even our best foreigner runs (such as Idra and Jinro in the early GSLs, or Huk midway through last year) only lasted for a very short time
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On April 07 2012 00:56 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:52 Xirroh wrote:
Foreigners,
maybe 5 could make it out of R32 in Code S
there are a few more who would be code A
A lot could compete in Code B. (offline)
Overall, Koreans will be winning NA championships for a long time. Maybe 5 could make it out of RO32 in Code S? No. Maybe Stephano and Huk..no one else.
i have faith in naniwa this season 
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Let's say Stephano is the best foriegner. I can pick one code A player from korea and that guy willl have atleast 50% chance to beat him. That's how good top foriegners are.
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On April 07 2012 01:06 Jisall wrote:
There never was a skill gap.
Blaming someone for being korean and winning is just an escape goat to protect one's ego. Somewhere along the line people started believing Koreans were better, and they defeated themselves before they even split their workers.
lolwut? They win everything because we think there is a skillgap? Please come back to reality and check the tournament results for the past year... Koreans win everything for a reason... They practice harder and smarter and therefore are better.
The skill gap is only going to get worse if the BW pro's really do switch over.... I hope some foreigners are practising their asses off at least... would be nice to have one or two who can compete.
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On April 07 2012 01:09 drop271 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:59 Azarkon wrote:On April 07 2012 00:54 CeroFail wrote:
I don't think there are that many foreigners who have consistently beat high level Koreans. There are some though but until they start hitting Code S and what not I wouldn't say that they've caught up just yet. Off the top of my head - Stephano, HuK, Naniwa, Ret, Morrow, Thorzain, SaSe, Sen, Sheth, and yes, IdrA are able to take games off top Koreans in macro games. The problem with this list is that it's got one new talent - Stephano - who came up during the 1.5 years SC 2 has been out. The rest were there at the beginning of SC 2, and are still there today. The foreigner's scene is shallow and stagnant. It has no depth and no future. I'm sorry but what? The post you quoted asked the question about consistently beating players, not occasionally taking games off them The key term is consistently beat top Koreans. This year alone Idra and Morrow have failed to make it out of Code A Ro32, let alone beat 'top koreans' Huk is back in Code A, Naniwa is only in Code S courtesy of a free seeding. Sen, Sheth, Thorzain, SaSe and Ret have all tried and failed (but I still love them all for it). Yeah, they may win a match or two in a team league, and Ret rolled through Parting and Oz at the Redbull Lan for no prizemoney, but the fact is that GSL is the only competition that matters, purely because they are the only league that gives players time to prepare for a match and therein show who is the best. Irregardless, all of those guys do and will continue to picking up the odd set off korean players, but none of them to date have consistently knocked off top Korean players. Even our best foreigner runs (such as Idra and Jinro in the early GSLs, or Huk midway through last year) only lasted for a very short time
There is no foreigner that does what you're saying, besides HuK in PvP. I read him as saying foreigners who are able to beat Koreans in macro games and not just in a one-off fashion. A foreigner player who knocks off top Koreans the way you're talking about it is better than them; no foreigner is that way, besides HuK in PvP.
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On April 07 2012 01:13 Wildmoon wrote:
Let's say Stephano is the best foriegner. I can pick one code A player from korea and that guy willl have atleast 50% chance to beat him. That's how good top foriegners are.
I would put money on almost any of the code A players to beat him tbh. Yes Stephano is good, and yea he can take series off Koreans but in the GSL format where players have time to prep for their opponents he will get smashed
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Even if you take the mighty mighty Stephano as an example, he has only been up there for around six months right? Jinro acheived that too. Surely, lets not say Stephano is up there with the 'top' koreans until he has kept up to that level for a decent length of time
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51710 Posts
On April 07 2012 01:13 Wildmoon wrote:
Let's say Stephano is the best foriegner. I can pick one code A player from korea and that guy willl have atleast 50% chance to beat him. That's how good top foriegners are.
what you say only seems to suggest how good stephano is....
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I just hope future foreign tournaments won't look like IPL4. Way too many koreans, I don't even care about that tournament anymore. MLG already had too many for my taste.
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The quick and dirty answer is no. For many reasons already stated in this thread.
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Nope. Not accounting for trends. Sometimes, foreigners beat top koreans. Then it always turns out that these events were part of a slump the korean was going through. I have yet to see a foreigner ever beat a top korean when the korean is on a hot streak.
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On April 07 2012 01:03 Mario1209 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 07 2012 00:56 chosenkerrigan wrote:On April 07 2012 00:52 Xirroh wrote:
Foreigners,
maybe 5 could make it out of R32 in Code S
there are a few more who would be code A
A lot could compete in Code B. (offline)
Overall, Koreans will be winning NA championships for a long time. Maybe 5 could make it out of RO32 in Code S? No. Maybe Stephano and Huk..no one else. i think naniwa has a good chance of getting to the ro16 this season considering his group. He's showed in the past he can beat MVP no problem, Ganzi's TvP is rather poor. only one i see giving him trouble will be puzzle.
Those Koreans in GSL are vastly different than in foreign tournament..u know it
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On April 07 2012 01:19 Champloo wrote:
I just hope future foreign tournaments won't look like IPL4. Way too many koreans, I don't even care about that tournament anymore. MLG already had too many for my taste.
I never have and never will understand this kind of logic... God that tournament has wayy to many of the best players in the world, I don't want to watch that!
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EPT
