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Eh. The skill level in SC2 is difficult to measure, because there is not any sense of long term consistency for any single player that lasts more than a few months. (Examples: MVP, Nestea, MC, DRG, MKP, [b]Bomber[/b} - all of them have the skills and ability to beat the hell out of people, but they have also had down periods where they couldn't apply those skills effectively for a variety of reasons.)
I look at it differently - I think the basic skill level is about on par, with the Koreans still edging ahead. The ability to win by applying that raw skill is generally in the Koreans favor, though, because they have better focused practice and training, as well as the vast majority of foreigners staring at Korea to see what trends in game play are evolving rather than working on their own to evolve new tactics and strategies. The Koreans seem to be more innovative in terms of strategies and how to abuse maps/units while foreigners are following trends that the Koreans are setting.
Foreigners have an inferiority complex, I think - probably somewhat deserved, but something that they could overcome if they just stopped drawing a distinction between the two communities and started innovating and incorporating better training.
Of course, I could also be horribly wrong. But SC2 has a touch more randomness in individual matches than BW did, and is still very much a living game. On any given day, Thorzain could possibly beat MMA. Huk could possibly beat DRG. Naniwa can beat Nestea. Sheth can take down Polt. But over time? Players that train in Korea using Korean methods are going to get better faster. (I say that because some Koreans live and train elsewhere, and some foreigners train in Korea.)
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Pretty much all foreign players have pretty horrible GSL records. Only jinro got deep into GSL repeatedly and this was a long time ago when the game was less well understood and the map pools were terrible.
Koreans look almost universally worse when competing in foreign tournaments, even with proper resting time to get rid of jet lag, maybe the prestige of the GSL just brings out their most competetive side i dunno, but in foreign tournaments koreans seem to lose games they never would sat in those GSL booths. Even when playing another korean both players look sloppier.
When we start seeing foreigners going deep into the GSL, thats a better indicator that the skill gap has been closed than anything else. Sadly by that view, the skill gap is bigger now than it has been previously.
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Huk is on korean level, he even is one of the very best PvP players out there.
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I think that korean skill has actually pulled further ahead, tbh I can never see a foreigner winning a big tourney again, unless koreans don't show up or someone gets a very hucky (oops, I mean lucky) run
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On April 06 2012 19:53 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 19:47 Wildmoon wrote:On April 06 2012 19:46 ETisME wrote:On April 06 2012 19:38 karn1 wrote:
In my opinion there are just three foreigners who might survive in Code S: Naniwa, Huk and Stephano. And I think these three are head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners. Ret and Thorzain might be Code A material, but otherwise the Koreans dominate everything. Naniwa? Not too sure about that :S nor Huk or Stephano. HuK has stayed in code s for a while, he could had been in code s this session since he was placed highest in the up&down, but he got knocked down unfortunately stephano could make to code S too, he has the potential definitely.
No offense to Huk but with the old system you only had to win 1 match in your group to stay in code S.
and how many times have we heard that x player has the potential to make it to code S only to not even qualify fairly for code A and if he gets a seed to get stomped.
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On April 06 2012 19:53 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 19:47 Wildmoon wrote:On April 06 2012 19:46 ETisME wrote:On April 06 2012 19:38 karn1 wrote:
In my opinion there are just three foreigners who might survive in Code S: Naniwa, Huk and Stephano. And I think these three are head and shoulders above the rest of the foreigners. Ret and Thorzain might be Code A material, but otherwise the Koreans dominate everything. Naniwa? Not too sure about that :S nor Huk or Stephano. HuK has stayed in code s for a while, he could had been in code s this session since he was placed highest in the up&down, but he got knocked down unfortunately stephano could make to code S too, he has the potential definitely.
Huk was in code S long time ago If I remember right. Being placed highest in the up&down is different story from surviving in code S. Stephano is great but I think Code S is too much for him. He still loses to code A korean many times.
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No i dont thinkt hey have ... sure a few outliers are beginning to get close. But for every korean pro that seems ot be godlike there seem to be 5-6 more that just haven't had the chance to shine yet.
It feels like foreigners arn't training properly / systematically enough. The koreans seem to have that culture down so i thinkt he gap will continue to widen.
An outlier doe not a catch up make.
Eg Jinro love him to bits but where is he? He had a great build at the right time and held his own for a bit but wasnt able to keep up with the game i guess. Great shame, but i hope hes having success in whatever hes doing.
As for Huk, sure its hard for him but he is the only consistent foreigner who seems to give koreans a run for their money.
I bet if he spoke korean and could really get involved with the korean houses when he is over there he could really becomes strong. But then he was already a competitor and understands how to train and the mentality involved.
People have hinted at it above and it is an unmeasurable. But it does seem like there is a big disadvantage to playing after travelling - ie playing whilst being in a culture that doesn't exactly make sense to you. I imagine the psychological aspect of that is quite tiring in subtle ways which gets reflected in games. Especially true with the koreans who seem younger - and i dont think callign a lot of them kids is unjust. They are developing players and some of these koreans who are having problems abroad now are likley to be the ones who are stomping everywhere in a few years because they *will* get used to it.
Its a real shame we cant give out players the same support as the koreans can get. Woudl be interesting to see things on a true level playing field - but personally what makes koreans strong is all about their culture surrounding the game.
The other thing that i dont think a lot of peopel appreciate is that at the top a 1% difference in skill is GIGANTIC and represents hundreds of hours (if not more) of work. The differernce betweena lot of these players will only be 1-2% if that and that small subtle difference makes all the difference - and a lot of the top foreign players dont have people that close in skill to train with.
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You got it all wrong op, as the time goes, the skill gap should grow, not the other way around.
Individual instances prove nothing when there is 10 more great koreans to replace each one that will occasionally lose, and the same can not be said about foreigners.
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On April 06 2012 18:37 nokz88 wrote:wtf is this thread seriously... OP clearly wanted to bait us to a flamefest. I'd say there's more skill gap between Korean and rest of the World Starcraft 2 scenes than NBA and the rest of the world basketball leagues. It's somewhat comparable to NFL and other leagues. Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 18:32 Hall0wed wrote:On April 06 2012 18:25 mrtomjones wrote:On April 06 2012 17:53 THM wrote:Not only foreigner skill has not caught up to koreans, but imagine the even huger gap we will see once 3 months pass since all the Brood war pros switch fulltime to SC2. THEN you'll see what a skill gap really is  Is this trolling? You realize the BW pros will get stomped bad for quite awhile if they switch to SC2. You also realize they are not any better than the SC2 pro's other than they on average train longer and have better refined what they need to do to learn something. Look at winrates among the top players in both. Enjoy. lol @ you. Not even going to bother addressing most of the fail in this as I am sure someone else will but I will let you know that BW players such as Jaedong have already started playing SC2 and they all have multiple Master league accounts (Korean server obviously). http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=323013¤tpage=52#1033Enjoy. Show nested quote +기존 스타2 선수들과 실력 차가 클 것 같은데?
"만약 병행이 된다면 선수들의 실력이 지금껏 스타2를 지켜봐온 마니아층에서 볼 땐 상당히 떨어져 보일 수도 있을 것이다. 1999년에 활동하던 선수들과 지금의 선수들은 실력 차가 크다. 하지만 크게 우려하지는 않는다. 조금만 지나면 금방 끌어올릴 수 있을 것이라 생각한다. GSL에서 활동 중인 선수들과 막 시작한 우리 선수들을 비교해보면 하늘과 땅 차이다. 하지만 경험의 차이는 금방 따라잡을 수 있을 것이라 생각한다." Translation: Q: The skill gap between your players and original SC2 players looks quite large. A: If it happens (T/N: meaning SC2 in proleague) the play level will look very low compared to what fans are used to seeing now, just like there is a huge gap between BW players from 1999 and now. But I am not too worried, because we are confident we can upgrade our skill given a little bit of time. The difference in skill between GSL players and ours is like heaven and earth, but I think we can catch up quickly. So yes, they will be stomped for a while when matched up with current SC2 pros. I think coach Ju knows better than you do.
Its almost as if you didn't read my post. meh
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Looking at results isn't even the right thing to look at. We should look at practice houses, training regime. The first roots leading to a more balanced international future are starting to grow, but the difference is still quite significantly in favor of Korea, when it comes to preparation. This makes it inevitable that there are more Koreans among the top players in the world, even though some individual foreigners are close enough to the very top and could win championships off Koreans. For now, when that happens it's more of a fluke, than to be expected 50% of the time. Which of course makes it the more exciting to see, but doesn't really prove the difference is shifting.
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I think the gap has widened if anything. The only foreigner that still consistently takes games of Koreans is HuK and that's really because he mimics the Korean way of training. Stephano had a nice run, since he is ungodly talented, but it seems like Koreans have started to figure him out and he hasn't booked any good results vs Koreans lately (except beating Polt in that one tournament).
The thing about the Koreans that is truly scary though is just how many damn good players there are. Of course you have MKP/DRG and the like, but you can take a random bunch of Code A/B players and put them in MLG with all the top foreigners and I'd lay money on the Koreans to still take the top spots. Just look at what Heart did in last MLG, even though he has almost no accomplishments in Korea.
With foreigners, there is a real steep dropoff after the top 10. And once you get below the top 50 it really just gets pathetic compared to the Koreans
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No. Looking at the top percentiles of both foreigners and Koreans I'd say we still have a ways. And that's not even taking into account the bottom tier of foreign v Korean. The bottom of the foreigner scene still needs to raise before foreigners at any skill level within the pro circuit have a fighting chance against equally placed Koreans. (IE mid tier foreigner vs mid tier Korean... being a close to 50/50 ratio for win/loss).
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Catching up? On the contrary, I believe at this point in time the "foreigner" skill is farther behind Korea than it's ever been. Even though a select few (Stephano comes to mind) might be able to compete, by and large the majority of foreign pros that had a chance of competing a year ago now don't stand a chance, unfortunately.
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No, the gap is getting bigger and bigger. The top foreigners can't really compete with top Koreans. The average foreigner can't compete with low-tier Koreans.
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Suppose you could freeze current skill levels and have the 50 best Koreans and 50 best foreigners play a round-robin tournament, with every match a Bo7. Maybe not totally ideal or realistic conditions, but you get the point. I think Stephano, Idra, Ret, HuK, Naniwa, Sase, Sheth, Major, Kas, Thorzain, Morrow could all compete to be in the top 50, but I'm not sure if any of them could for the top 20 spot. (except Stephano, HuK, Naniwa maybe)
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those people who says foreigners are upto levelof koreans are just fooling themselves
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This is why I agree with FXOBoss when he says it would be great to have a GSL for each region. That way Americans would have a chance to win something without any European. Same for Europeans without any Korean.
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Afraid not, and I'm not going to repeat the tournament results other people have brought up.
Instead, I'm going to talk about the dearth of new talent in the foreigner's scene.
It's been one and a half years. The players at the top of foreigner SC 2 -
HuK, Stephano, Naniwa, Thorzain, and Ret.
The same names, minus Stephano, that were at the top of SC 2 during Beta. Aside from Stephano, all pros from BW and WC 3.
The players at the top of Korean SC 2 -
MMA, Jjakji, Taeja, MKP, MC, Parting, DRG, Leenock.
Of these, 5/8 are new: Jjakji, Taeja, Parting, DRG, and Leenock. Nobody heard of these guys during Beta. They're a new generation of SC 2 pros, and Korea is producing them every year to replace old timers - the Testers and Fruitdealers - that permeate the top of the foreigner's scene.
We have an old boy's club. They have a talent engine.
It's going to get worse.
This is a roughly translated version of an interview done with Coach Ju of Team 8, from the BW forum:
Q: How good is JD in SC2?
Coach Ju: players who were dominant in BW also seem to be dominant in SC2. His feel for the game and macro is impeccable. He is studying unfamiliar strats from VOD's. He had a hard time adjusting at first but since the game is fun the players have gotten very competitive about their ladder points. Some have made multiple accounts to start over and get to masters quickly. Since hotkeys are adjustable, that makes it easier to transition. However the pace of the game is much faster. Right now we are focusing on SC2. At the beginning it was hard to incorporate both games into our regime, but now we are used to it.
Q: Other teams?
Coach Ju: Not sure about their skill levels. We [=the different teams] haven't really shared who is even playing SC2. One thing is for sure though: most high masters on ladder these days are current BW pros.
Q: Thoughts on BW fans against incorporating SC2?
Coach Ju: Lots of people are against the idea of change, but I want to ask them, as fans of esports, what is the right choice? Nobody plays BW outside of Korea anymore, and looking 5 years ahead, transitioning to SC2 is the right decision. It would be a disservice to all the foreign fans wanting to watch JD play SC2 to limit him to BW. If you give SC2 a chance, most of the time people have the reaction of 'It's actually more fun than I thought.' I hope people can give it a chance.
JD being, of course, Jaedong. With Blizzard negotiating with Kespa, OGN looking to get into SC 2, and the BW scene in Korea making the switch, the competition is going to get fiercer. I'm not an Elephant In The Room guy, but when you infuse a highly competitive scene with loads of people whose RTS mechanics are off the roof, that's super charging it.
The foreigner's scene has no answer. It's been one and a half years, and the best we've produced is Stephano, who has amazing talent, but no discipline whatsoever and is looking to quit this year. You measure that against the influx of highly skilled amateurs in Korean SC 2, and in the future, the incoming S & A class BW pros, and the picture is dire.
I've not always been a doom and gloomer, but the way foreigner SC 2 is going, the way foreigner tournaments are going, the way new foreigner talents are not being cultivated and are not coming up to carry the torch, it's all doom and gloom.
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On April 06 2012 21:06 a5mod wrote:
This is why I agree with FXOBoss when he says it would be great to have a GSL for each region. That way Americans would have a chance to win something without any European. Same for Europeans without any Korean.
FXOBoss has a great point, but I don't know if he appreciates the full depth of how that point has an impact. Not only does GSL keep everyone close by, and foster a year-round training atmosphere of great players in a small location, they also foster a community and culture that starts people training seriously to become a progamer from a younger age. Look at the top foreigners - I bet you'll find that the age averages out to be older than the top Koreans. (Even if you exclude outliers, like WhiteRa. Who is still playing very well into his 30s.) I think foreigners don't commit to the kind of practice and training as young as Koreans, and aren't even exposed to the possibility of a "progamer" career until later in life.
I mean, look at Leenock and Maru - those kids (they're both at least half my age) are monsters and they still have a good 10 years more to play! It seems like a lot of foreigners don't begin to take gaming that seriously until they get that old. A GSL-style tournament with steady a product and an increased presence (for example, if MLG were ever to get that studio built in Columbus and sold a packaged show to even a second tier cable channel) could help to promote the kind of atmosphere which could get people going earlier. Now I feel like foreigners are starting at a disadvantage to begin with, just from the lack of time they could have been getting the basics put into muscle memory.
Yeah, SC2 itself isn't that old, but progaming is old enough and the basic mechanics of mouse accuracy and quick fingered typing are.
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EPT
