On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
I actually feel the opposite. I think the cream of the foreign crop can compete with anyone in the Korean scene, but on average the majority of players are still only pulling "upsets" against Koreans in my mind.
I think Kennigits point is true. The best koreans > best foreigners. Good koreans = good foreigners. But theyre still not able to show good results in the GSL
Short answer, not yet, but getting closer. People need to remember that skill isn't gained in day, week, month, or even a year. It takes a LONG time to get good.
On April 06 2012 22:06 ooozer wrote: I still can't understand the obsession about foreigner vs koreans. I root for the better player, not for a nationality...
yeah it's pretty terrible. i wish more people would do that :D
Foreigners can't even qualify for Code A. No, they haven't caught up and they will never, because most foreigners are lazy, less talented and not as passionate about this game and with BW pros switching over the gap will become even bigger.
Also this foreigner vs koreans thing is quite annoying.
Koreans still win pretty much every foreign tournament they enter and only 1 or 2 foreigners could eventually do decent in the GSL, so no, the gap is still pretty big
On April 06 2012 22:06 ooozer wrote: I still can't understand the obsession about foreigner vs koreans. I root for the better player, not for a nationality...
Could not agree with you more. Why do you guys want to see sub-par players play the game?
I rather watch the game being played to the absolute maximum skill, executed to near-perfection, instead of a game being exciting because both players make big mistakes which results in an even game.
Eh, I always felt this topic has carried over from Brood War in a somewhat irrational way. As long as foreign players can quite comfortably beat Koreans in a series, it's pointless (and impossible) to measure the "skill gap" between the two groups as a whole.
Once again though, Korean players seem to be more serious and committed which for now gives them enough of an edge to go all the way and actually win tournaments. If this situation persists for the next few years however, then we'll be inevitably seeing an actual skill gap where the question will no longer be whether a top foreign player can beat a Korean, but whether he can put up a decent enough performance to make the game at least somewhat entertaining.
On April 06 2012 17:07 Kennigit wrote: Really depends how you want to look at the sets of players. Can the top 1% of foreigners compete with the top 1% of koreans? On average probably not. Can the top 50% of foreigners (pros) compete with the top 50% of koreans? I'd argue yes, and it's shown regularly in show matches, clan leagues etc. Ret 3-0ed Ganzi the other night in a show match. Ganzi is not MMA, but he is high level. Huk regularly beats excellent koreans, stephano, thorzain etc etc.
I actually feel the opposite. I think the cream of the foreign crop can compete with anyone in the Korean scene, but on average the majority of players are still only pulling "upsets" against Koreans in my mind.
if by the cream of the foreign crop you mean stephano, then i can see where your coming from, although i still think he would have to be playing his very best to stand a chance vs a top 10 korean. but apart from him theres no one who would win a match vs them and it wouldn't be an upset. maybe naniwa, well have to see how he does in Code S this time. Huk and Idra were just embarrassed in the GSL last season, and people think of them as really good. in the good but not godly tier of pros its quite equal though, theres quite a few people who could probably play Code A but dont, and with the NA tournaments starting to really pick up i think they probably wont bother. Huk did manage to qualify so hopefully he can do better this season, it would be nice to see a foreigner earn a code S place, and not be invited, even if he is protoss.
This is exactly what Blizzard and foreigners wanted with sc2. Most foreigners do not want to play 8-12 hours a day and Blizzard wanted the game to appeal more to non-Koreans. sc2 allows people to make random deep runs without the 8-12 hours of practice a day. This allows foreigners to randomly win but also makes it more difficult for a few people to dominate the scene. As a result koreans drop games and sets more often to foreigners but more interestingly to me is foreigners drop games and sets to no-namers and randoms.
On April 06 2012 16:51 mrtomjones wrote: Other than Huk, Stephano, Naniwa, Thorzain, Ret, Socke and sometimes Idra or Sase I can't think of anyone who compares to thew Koreans and sadly none of them have ever compared to whomever the top Korean is...so no not yet. Maybe someday...
Add to this Feast , Nerchio , sometimes MaNa ( when he have good day , he play really good , win after some Kr players already) , BlinG and many more players
the most underrated thing about the Korean scene is not th skill level of the top5 players but the actual depth of the second tier pros who are still ridculously good compared to foreigner standards
that being said, foreigners do seem to have catched up a little bit but nowhere near enough to say that the 2 scenes are close
My question in all of these sorts of discussions is "does it matter?"
Maybe its because I am from a part of the world without many home grown competitors. Maybe it is because I am from a country that doesn't often behave in a nationalist/patriotic way (imo thats a good thing, but irrelevant here).
I just want to see great, innovative play and epic control. I don't really care where a player is from, and I kinda don't understand why everyone does
edit: and I don't think foreigner tournaments, the MLGs, dreamhacks, IEMs and so on will do any worse if they are dominated by Koreans. I guess I don't even see why this is an issue for discussion
Most of the foreigners that come out and start making a name by beating Koreans fall into obscurity after within a year. We've seen this with a lot of players since launch. The fact that Koreans are still dominating almost every tournament shows a difference. I'm not saying foreigners aren't good, it's just that Korea always has a handful of monsters that knock them out towards the end of tournaments.
I think the skill gap is as big as it has always been. The Koreans are still getting all/most of the Top 8-16 places in any tournament they enter. And thats in a game where a 60-65% winrate against equally skilled gamers is considered absolute top which should allow foreigners to do more upsets here and there but this isnt the case and that just shows the pure dominance of Korea in SC2.
Plus this:
On April 06 2012 22:52 Kahlgar wrote: the most underrated thing about the Korean scene is not th skill level of the top5 players but the actual depth of the second tier pros who are still ridculously good compared to foreigner standards
Any second tier progamer from Korea is the favourite against standard foreigner progamers. We see that in smaller online cups and showmatches etc.
Alot of people trying to deny this fact for various reasons. Especially some statements of high level representatives and managers of the foreign scene are getting pretty embarassing.
EPT
