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On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote:
Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
I open with a warp prism build vT and vZ whenever I get close air. it's not as strong as you think it would be.
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On August 09 2011 23:19 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:16 klops wrote:+ Show Spoiler +mc went hallucination vs a raven.
pretty sure hallucinations when in detection get lower attack priority from the tanks and are wasted space. can correct me if i'm wrong, haven't played in awhile. + Show Spoiler +Who cares even if it was a big blunder? Would 100/100 elsewhere and more sentry energy have done anything to stop MVP from losing like one bunker and a couple marines compared to MC losing almost everything?
probly not. i'd have to rewatch and look at the techs, i don't remember.
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On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote:
Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it.
My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better.
Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
Cute play might entertain people but solid/conservative players like Nestea and MVP will almost always crush that kind of bullshit.
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On August 09 2011 23:20 Crying wrote:And also that thread comes right today because + Show Spoiler +If the best can't do anything about,then what leaves for us,the players that try to play the game?
Because at lower levels balance is a whole other beast, in your average diamond game (for example) people aren't doing MVP-class 1/1/1 contains.
in 90% of the games it is still gonna come down to who makes less mistakes or who doesn't make big mistakes.
And someone tell me, why did 1/1/1 start to become such a big problem (haven't watched a lot of gsl untill today, and I almost never follow LR threads because of the excessive complaints).
I mean, the build is really old and I thought Protoss had that figured out by now, so where did this "we can't beat 1/1/1 builds" come from suddenly?
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Well MC's hybris pretty much made him go to the up and downs, no one forced him to pick Mvp in his group. It's not the first time this happened to him either.
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maybe warp prism start with speed up upgrade? and reduced build time or resource?
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On August 09 2011 23:21 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:19 Olsson wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote:
Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"...
Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle...
I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever...
I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss. Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range. Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
True.
And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome.
It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
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On August 09 2011 23:22 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote:
Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it.
My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better.
Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering. White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post. White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
White Ra hate? for shame.
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On August 09 2011 23:22 Proko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote:
Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar? I open with a warp prism build vT and vZ whenever I get close air. it's not as strong as you think it would be.
Well do you use it when they're in their base? Or do you use it when they move out to attack?
It can be like Ling backstabs, pulling the Terran army back.
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Well for those of us not playing at GSL levels the game isn't imbalanced at all. I do fine in pvz and pvt and have since release. I'm sure most of you are the same.
There really isn't a problem as far as I'm concerned.
If a race is weak at the top levels the solution will eventually have to come from the top players. People just have to accept that the GSL is mostly a terran show and will stay that way for a long time.
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On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote:
Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
Every game I get the chance, in GM.
Storm drops are fantastic lategame, but that's lategame. There's a lack of reliable midgame harassment options that don't require extreme tech rushing, which means P's midgame is very fragile and cannot afford mistakes or they will fall behind (barring some sort of timing all-in).
Protoss lacks a unit that can clear out workers/kill tech quickly in the midgame (yeah you can DT drop rush but that build is incredibly fragile and greedy). Dropping 2 immortals is kind of cute but also slower than dropping 8 marines, and more expensive.
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On August 09 2011 23:24 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:21 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:19 Olsson wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote:
Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"...
Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle...
I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever...
I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss. Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range. Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi. True. And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome. It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
Get your units on more than 1 control group, get your army on more than 1 control group spread it out so splash isn't as good.
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On August 09 2011 23:23 CoMMoDuS wrote:
Well MC's hybris pretty much made him go to the up and downs, no one forced him to pick Mvp in his group. It's not the first time this happened to him either.
Any other terran in Korea could have done the exact same thing to him and won. His choice to pick MVP had nothing to do with it and he would probably annihilate MVP, who has bad mid to late game TvP, in a macro game which he was going for.
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On August 09 2011 23:24 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:21 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:19 Olsson wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote:
Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"...
Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle...
I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever...
I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss. Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range. Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi. True. And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome. It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
Extremely passive turtling is still the ideal way for Protoss to play. The problem simply lies in the micro of these deathballs. The race has evolved from aclicking with Void-Ray/Colossus to actually needing some sort of care.
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On August 09 2011 23:22 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote:
Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it.
My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better.
Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering. White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post. White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them.
Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No.
God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.
My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard.
You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much.
Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it 
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On August 09 2011 23:21 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:19 Olsson wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote:
Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"...
Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle...
I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever...
I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss. Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range. Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
Zerg had months of issues and the only way for them to win ZvP was huge economical advantage and very good positioning. Roach Corruptor Hydra was the only composition that worked at the time since infestors didnt have good fungal dps back then. Though Zerg did experiment. Protoss has had a year of a-moving stalker colossi and expecting to win though.
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On August 09 2011 23:25 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote:
Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar? Every game I get the chance, in GM. Storm drops are fantastic lategame, but that's lategame. There's a lack of reliable midgame harassment options that don't require extreme tech rushing, which means P's midgame is very fragile and cannot afford mistakes or they will fall behind (barring some sort of timing all-in). Protoss lacks a unit that can clear out workers/kill tech quickly in the midgame (yeah you can DT drop rush but that build is incredibly fragile and greedy). Dropping 2 immortals is kind of cute but also slower than dropping 8 marines, and more expensive.
Choya v Qxc in the GSTL showed Warp prism speed + Colossus drops and while Choya was blatantly intended it to be cute it also showed potiential.
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On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's??
Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
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i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just warped in a round of units and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose alot before your army can get there.
if terran walls of before your probe scouts him there is no way of knowing what he will do, he could be doing the 1 1 1 or simply just expanding behind it and both these things need two completly diffrent counters, 1 require you to chrono your probes like a madman and the other to cut probes.
there are tons of things like this where protoss just have to take a blind guess and pray its right, if you where right its an even game if not your dead
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Metagame shift.
protoss need immortals to hold early game attacks. going straight to colsi is a punishable cheese. toss have been getting away with it for a long time with pro usage of forcefields, but people have figured out how to punish protoss and exploit their gateway only units.
the game was balanced with every unit in mind and protoss think they can ignore a core unit of their race, the immortal. this is what is holding them back.
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EPT
