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Protoss is the most gimmicky and cheesy of all the races. They were busy doing the 6-7 gate all-ins, DT all-ins, blink-stalker all-ins, 3-gate 1-star all-ins against both terrans and zergs instead of improving. Now they have a taste of their own medicine with the marine/tank/banshee/raven build.
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well I didnt read the whole thread but for me there is one big problem that destroys PvT
CLOAK BANSHEE
You have to go robo unless there is a clear indication he isn't going to do that
This totally destroys the matchup and robo tech is fuckin bad at least as an opener..
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On August 10 2011 01:49 Crying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:48 Akhee wrote:On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote:
My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran:
In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved.
Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg:
Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning.
The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies. lol agreed 100% with you I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see.
Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". Remember when terran could never beat a 3 base protoss with templar because every time you'd attack everything would get stormed instantly. Protoss said "fuck you idiots, get better at emp". All players are gonna be biased towards their own race.
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On August 10 2011 01:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) Phoenix -,- Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
If u say `phoenix opening is free win against every factory build` please could u give examples and further explanation ?
it is easy to just say something. In my eyes its important for a good discussion to go in details to get a good picture about things.
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Immortals feel weak, Prisms feel weak, Carriers feel weak. Perhaps they could use a little 'Roach +1 Range' love.
That said, I suspect Protoss will look more attractive with increased Phoenix play, because Phoenix are excellent at denying 'cute' play and punishing threadbare defenses or retreats. Zealots and Immortals (especially with a sentry or two) look a lot more attractive when Phoenix are denying air-to-ground and preventing the opponent from retreating without losing a lot of units to pickups. (So do Warp Prisms, since you already have air support for your dropped/warped ground harassment, and you can poke in ahead of time so you know the Prism isn't flying into its demise.)
Stargates and Twilight Councils have much more room for aggressive play than Robos and Sentries, because they sell fast units that can chase or retreat from enemy forces. However, Twilight openings need a solution to Banshee Cloaking builds, since you won't have the chance to scout it. (Which is not to say one doesn't exist... like a gas steal, or the addition of a Robo in time for defensive obs against a one-rax gas opening from Terran, or simply playing a different opening against builds that could be one-rax gas. Or a timing at which you expect to kill a player who tech straight Cloak.)
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Coming from a terran, it feels as though protoss is.. flat. (if that makes sense)
There's nothing *special* about their play its just make ball->attack w/ ball
Storm drops are expensive if they die, dt's are a heavy investment if you are just using them to harass, phoenixes are relatively fragile and take away from gateway/robo production, vrays are slow, carriers are very rarely seen (cost+time>value). Almost every unit protoss has is designed to fight in a central engagement. high templars, colossi, archons, carriers, vrays are all made for big fights. Phoenix/dt are prohibitively expensive early and easily countered late, gateway units are just kinda meh in all situations.
Zerg, on the other hand, has ling runby, bling drop, mutas, infestors, and blords as "reaction-forcers". You ignore any of those for any length of time, and you get punished HARD. Most of those will also either hold their own in a fight or work wonders as delayers.
Terran has a lot more flexibility in army composition terms. while MMMVG is the most prevalent vs P in non-allin games, you can also mech, pure MMM with lots of drops, qxc nuke/reaper/MMM style, just a lot of variety in general. There's no automatic loss when you lose a drop, or a ghost, or a small clump of army (mech possibly excluded). Protoss has to be really careful about conserving units until they reach that deathball, because before that they just end up dying really fast.
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On August 10 2011 01:55 Joseph123 wrote:
well I didnt read the whole thread but for me there is one big problem that destroys PvT
CLOAK BANSHEE
You have to go robo unless there is a clear indication he isn't going to do that
This totally destroys the matchup and robo tech is fuckin bad at least as an opener..
Even if u are 100% sure the terran's tech path is pretty clear Barracks -> Fact - >Starport
And yes it doesnt bother the terran to put a starport and add a cloak banshee just for a multiprong and long term harass. ;9
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ogs has Inca, MC, HuK, Hero, and Vines. I'd call that a Protoss team.
But can we all agree that this truly all depends on the balance of the bunker? :trollface:
As for the phoenix thing -- that may be true but it's very coinflippy as any big MM and/or ghost and cloaked banshee/ghsot pushes will just kill you.
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What protoss needs some stronger units and arbiters.
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On August 10 2011 01:48 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:47 Xahhk wrote:On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships:
I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates:
Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops -
What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck? You are saying that toss should be defensive pvt? Use storm drops? I thought that was common knowledge for anyone diamond + If it's common knowledge, then why aren't you people doing it rather then bitching about the state of protoss? I am suggesting everybody to experiment rather the copy builds and styles they see MC use. And I said toss should be defensive too because most protosses are aggressive. Who's to say that defense isn't the solution? how about you test it yourself before bickering about how it won't work.
Because what you suggest totally misses the point of the main problem (1/1/1) and aside from that is just terrible.
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On August 10 2011 01:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) Phoenix -,- Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
oh jinro are you sure it's not only a problem for you? not trying to be badmanner but it seems you were having trouble with stargate opening even with rax units, correct me if Im wrong
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On August 10 2011 01:44 gustavohmp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:29 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 01:20 gustavohmp wrote:On August 10 2011 01:14 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 01:11 gustavohmp wrote:On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote:
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community. Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent Replay of this in a high level game where the 1/1/1 is perfectly executed please. And er, you focus fire the warp prism with your marines and kill 600 minerals worth of stuff? They're smart enough to not leave their tanks way back in a huge clump then run forward all their marines, then sit there and watch them die to zealots. No one can perfectly execute anything. Youre assuming the T is a pretty good player and the P is a pretty shitty one, and you want the P player to still win If theyre smart enough to not let you rape them, then you are just dumber than them. If you want a high-level solution, be high-level yourself, maybe then you can find it. The way you talk, no one but successful pros can discuss strategy. And you dont look like a successful pro to me. ...What? The way I talk is that every high level protoss player loses to this build when executed by a high level terran, which is what happens. No one being able to perfectly execute anything has nothing to do with it, the T being a good player and the P being bad and still winning has nothing to do with it, "if theyre smart enough to not let you rape them" has nothing to do with it...nothing you said has anything to do with anything I said. No high level protoss has held this against a high level terran unless the terran has made a massive mistake like forget siege mode, which would be like me trying to do a colossus timing attack and forgetting colossus range. So yes, in that case no one but successful pros can discuss the strategy because Johnny Diamond can't say something that sounds smart like "just zealot bomb his tanks" and think that is a viable solution. If there is a solution to this, that works on the level where the terran is smart enough to focus fire, spread his units correctly, etc. then it will not be discovered by some no-name on teamliquid.net theorycrafting about warp prisms. On August 10 2011 01:27 vizir wrote:On August 10 2011 01:21 Kaonis wrote:On August 10 2011 01:16 vizir wrote:On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote:
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community. There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once? Okay, I laughed, hard. I used to play zerg + Show Spoiler + wtf are you trying to say? I should commit into 4/5 gate every game vs T now JUST IN CASE he is doing 1-1-1? I'm really starting to lose faith in ppl when reading this thread. No, looks like he's saying he used to play zerg and that four gate was impossible to deal with, even though it stopped working well against anything but protoss before it got nerfed anyway. So he's basically being cute by saying "hahaha I whined about what you did forever, now I get to watch you whine, isn't this awesome, hohoho" which is extremely helpful. Oh, so proplayers know the game inside-out, and if they cant deal with a push like 1/1/1 who has been around ever since the beta, then the game is imbalanced? Come on. 1/1/1 consist of marines, tanks, and a banshee. In my scenario, the Raven is irrelevant, since Im not using DTs and stalkers arent the butter here. Zealots rape marines. Zealots rape tanks. Have your stalkers instead of attacking a siege line. If you dont have enough Zealots / Sentries to deal with the marines, you deserve to lose. Banshees cant hit air, so they cant stop the WP. If you cant get the Zealots above the tanks, you can use it to warp stuff outside of your base for a flank. What makes immortals bad against this push is because immortals are bad against marines, but if you can rule them out, then immortals are pretty good against it. Everything you have been saying so far boils down to "no, your strategy wont work. If you a-move and get outplayed this shit is imbalanced, period." Stop acting like an smartass if thats all you can say.
So, do you actually play this game? Just wondering. You think you are going to have +1 armor, charge, enough zealots to go through marines that are stutter step microing (while you still have 4 in the warp prism) and think that somehow the terran can only focus fire a warp prism with banshees.
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On August 10 2011 01:56 eourcs wrote:Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit".
By the other thing, you mean like use more Infestors? Yeah, that was so wrooong...
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On August 10 2011 01:56 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:49 Crying wrote:On August 10 2011 01:48 Akhee wrote:On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote:
My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran:
In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved.
Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg:
Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning.
The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies. lol agreed 100% with you I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see. Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". Remember when terran could never beat a 3 base protoss with templar because every time you'd attack everything would get stormed instantly. Protoss said "fuck you idiots, get better at emp". All players are gonna be biased towards their own race.
ok, are we talking about a composition or a all in?
seriously we had 200/200 deathball and then infestors get buffed, void ray got nerfed and now we are having MUCH more trouble (look winrate please) and you are telling us nobody is gonna do anything?
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On August 10 2011 01:39 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:33 ClueLessx3 wrote:On August 10 2011 01:21 Numy wrote:On August 10 2011 01:17 ClueLessx3 wrote:On August 10 2011 01:14 Olsson wrote:
DT shouldn't get blink that's a retarded suggestion. That's like if mutas could burrow. Mutas can get away easily DTs cannot, and i think that is why DT harassment is greatly discouraged since its a suicide mission and high cost of that. Besides i said give it blink in terms of energy base, make it like idk 100 each blink so you can only blink in and out once per 200 sec DTs are great as it stands. Many people just have the wrong idea about them. They think they HAVE to kill tons of works to be beneficial when most of the time they get sick map control and other benefits as well as potential to kill workers Are you able to suggest any other way to harass the enemy? Cause i don't think there are any viable/effective way to do so with the current units Protoss is given, without investing an abundant of resource, just to be shut down. You said DTs needed a change, they don't really. They fill their capacities. Protoss doesn't really have a dedicated harassment unit but most races don't either. The real issue is how protoss units in small groups don't really keep the same kind of effectiveness that they have in big groups so you can never really split your army into smaller chunks while remaining effective like a Terran can do. Neither do they have the mobility to harass like Zerg do. Honestly I think warpgate/Sentry has screwed the race slightly.
I think Protoss do have a dedicated harassment unit, which IS DTs however they just do a bad job at it since they cost so much and never make it out. I agree other races don't have a dedicated harassment unit but in my view DT are designed to do this job, in which by comparison are not as effective as those that are just harassment units (not dedicated) Resulting in units such as mutas or banshee vastly superior. And if DT cannot even compare to a non-dedicated harassment unit then what is it doing there? What purpose does it serve? You mentioned Map control which i totally agree upon, but its only temporary since they aren't as mobile, and giving blink in my opinion will give the mobility that a dt needs
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On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory.
Motherships:
I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates:
Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Thank you for this post. I laughed, a lot.
...you were trolling, right?
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What happened to TL ? Last time I checked TL did not allow threads just for the sake of crying imbalance. And here protoss come and give their opinion on what should be changed in order to make them stronger because Protoss suck, apparently.
Remember when Zergs were whining ? Hypocrites.
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On August 10 2011 01:55 Akhee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:51 lee365 wrote:
I think the problem is there is no real "Protoss Team". Terran has SlayerS and Zerg has IM to make new strategies and create/exploit timings. The only innovators for Toss are MC and WhiteRa/Huk and there is no Protoss centered team. So solutions and new stuff takes a long time to come out, but it should get there. sorry but it's not like that ): that's not about players, protoss had a lot of players and is getting lower as the winrate gets lower, you can see GSL the players number, it started in the first one with ~28 protoss from 64 spots, look now how many are still there a example that comes in mind in byun, was very bad protoss, became terran and now goes ro4 code S
He was not that bad, bleach was in GSL 1 and 2 as protoss. That's pretty good. But yeah he told us why he switched. "terran OP" and he wanted to ride the strong horse.
I admire that. Put his money where his mouth is instead of crying like other pros.
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On August 10 2011 01:53 vizir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) Phoenix -,- Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening. Also free loss against various terran MMM based builds. Phoenix openings rly only work in maps with small enough choke at natural so you can hold it with few forcefields. In maps with open expos phoenix openings are yet another guessing game depending on what T is doing.
Last time I saw MC using Phoenices against 1-1-1 he lost too. Loses against 1 Rax FE into Ghost Push as well.
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This is a collective of the dumbest minds the protoss race has to offer.
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EPT
