EPTdelayed cloak banshees can kill a protoss, too
State of the Protoss - Page 25
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mderg
Germany1740 Posts
delayed cloak banshees can kill a protoss, too | ||
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FairForever
Canada2392 Posts
Cruncher does that all the time now, I don't know why Korean Protosses don't. I guess the problem is if you steal a gas and the Terran player goes a one-gas build you've essentially wasted 75 minerals... | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On August 10 2011 01:56 eourcs wrote: Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". Remember when terran could never beat a 3 base protoss with templar because every time you'd attack everything would get stormed instantly. Protoss said "fuck you idiots, get better at emp". All players are gonna be biased towards their own race. Except all this Z and T whining consequently led to a patch change, namely the infestor buff and the KA removal. You can't just say that suddenly, Zerg and Terran super-gifted-not-like-those-dumb-protoss players figured it out with new innovative strats. | ||
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Nibbler89
884 Posts
On August 10 2011 01:41 Jesushooves wrote: Why doesn't everyone just go the practice partner thread, ask for a terran practice partner - and tell him to do the 1/1/1 against you until you figure out a way to stop it? As of right now people just bitch and moan about it like it is impossible to stop because fucking MC hasn't done some miracle build against it yet. Better yet try playing terran, playing the race you have trouble with often gives good insight into their weaknesses. Many protoss I encounter that try and say Terran is easy I challenge them to a pvt where I will play p and they will play T, typical response is " i don't know how to play t" the few that do accept usually get owned and say "well its because I dont know how to play t" ignoring the fact that I do not play P extensively either. It often shows they don't understand the race they are playing against at even a rough level. This is true of most people that only play one race as it leads to bias from their ignorance. Most people that haven't played T to high masters level don't realize it's not as easy as they think. (In fact most zergs I've met that have tried playing T admit it's much more micro intensive / difficult for them compared to Z. This is my own personal experience as well after playing z from plat to masters to understand their race better as i was having troubles tvz) Many people here are acting as if they are the protoss in GSL and are playing MVP or other incredibly strong terrans when the majority are probably diamond and below and it's hardly balance that's holding them back. Even at masters theres plenty of room for improvement to where you can win just based on better macro. If you want to discuss how protoss at tournament level in korea are currently weak thats fine(I'd actually agree) but these people using that to rationalize why they are still in gold league or losing on NA ladder are a joke. Try playing random and getting perspective on all the races to improve your game. For people looking for ways to make it easier to hold off 1-1-1. do a gas steal combined with quick stalker pressure at front and this will mess up a lot of T's timings. It also gives more time for you to hold if he decides to commit to the build / it will be obvious he is going for it if hes trying to get 2nd gas early.(yes im aware its a incredibly hard build to stop) This goes back to my earlier point of the importance of understanding the terran's build. | ||
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Lewan72
United States381 Posts
On August 09 2011 23:26 Krehlmar wrote: And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill. My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much. Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it  "Wins do not equal to provenskill." So that means tournements and GSLs are useless in terms of proving skill because all they do is "give wins"?Your retarded. White-ra I <3 whitera but he is not one of the best. I watch his play, hes EXTREMELY greedy, he takes bases way faster than a protoss should(even casters say it: omg whiteras taking a super fast 2nd!), against passive foreigner oponents this may work sometimes but against agressive koreans this fails every time.What top korean has whitera lately beat? NO ONE. I agree innovation is important, but that is not everything. Players like MVP rely on super super solid play to beat their opponents. And how can you say MC has no innovation skill? He is the one that has been pushing the protoss metagame, most protosses analyze him to get better (example he refined the phoenix opening vs zerg.) Also MC is not in Code B hes in the up and down between Code A and Code S. Meanwhile where is whitera? Dumb fucktard. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
There is one thing I want to address. It's been stated repeatedly that Protoss players just don't innovate enough, as opposed to Zerg and Terran players, who are simply ahead in strategy development. Now, I can definitely agree that Zergs have worked hard for their ZvP successes. They found a variety of styles and strategies that work just fine against the Protoss deathball, deal with Protoss timing attacks, and nullify Protoss openings. Ling/Baneling with double upgrades, Infestors, Baneling drops in general, the IM 200/200 Roach push, fast Hive after Infestor openings; constant ling counter attacks, big drops with expendable units, even base trades (Darkforce used to win a ton of ZvPs by maxing out on Roach/Hydra, getting drop, and then just basetrading and expanding everywhere). They were in a bit of a tough spot (which wasn't even that bad stats-wise), so they went back to the drawing board and came up with some really sexy stuff. Of course, this was accompanied by huge amounts of whining, but eh, what can you do. However, where in the world is the Terran innovation in TvP? What exactly do Terrans do right now, that they haven't been doing back when the game was released? They figured out that getting Ghosts earlier can be good, but aside from that? Go watch Select play at MLG D.C, is his play so much different than what Terrans do nowadays? I just don't see it at all. There are some Terran players trying new things out, in particular Thorzain does a lot of funky stuff in TvP, which is often much more effective than you would expect (like his mass ghosts, or the infamous Thor/Hellion push). But in general, Terran players are doing the same shit they've always been doing, just executing it better. Protoss on the other hand, have definitely innovated more in their PvT. MC alone popularized like 3 new builds during his run in GSL3, and then we had Double Forge upgrade rushes with slow tech, San's mass expand with Zealot/Templar style (you were so cool, Khaydarin Amulet  ), Phoenix/Colossus, the recent surge of 2 base Zealot/Archon in the midgame, and if you watch Select vs MC on Crevasse during the NASL finals, you'll see MC smash face with Chargelot/Phoenix/HT. Similarly, new PvZ strategies are constantly appearing, the most recent one being the NSHS Zealot/Phoenix harass after an FFE.I really can't see how Protoss players aren't innovating. You can point at the Warp Prism, and it is indeed somewhat underused, but Protosses have changed their play plenty since the release of SC2. Terrans, on the other hand, have arguably only adapted to Protoss innovation. Indeed, why would you change anything in your play, when it works just fine the way it is? Look at how much they whine when Broodlord/Infestor forces them to do something different in ZvT lategame. | ||
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Xahhk
Canada540 Posts
On August 10 2011 02:16 ScythedBlade wrote: Wrong. PHD proven. Like I said ... decision trees. Draw them out ... yes, we know it's 2^n for each of the action. But it has always been other races whining while Protoss has been getting weaker and weaker. 8 Second Fungal technically is stronger than 4 Second Fungal (Since, it just lets you buy even more time), unless you're trying not to make your openings. What 98% of players lack is the understanding of decision trees in creating games like these ... Protoss has been weak, and there are limitations to Protoss abilities. The only reason Protoss seemed overpowered was because other races failed to find new strats. For Protoss, the decision tree is *extremely* slim. Slowest tech switches, you can be sure that "new" strategies have usually been thought out. Right now, the most viable strategy to 1 Barrack FE is WhiteRa's double expo into Speshul Tactics. But that's about it ... Protoss needs to be *buffed* now, as they are the weakest of the 3 races. Anyone who says otherwise, please state your assumptions and your decision trees. 1 Barracks FE? Huk PVT build handles that nicely. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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constantqt
176 Posts
this forum more and more reminds me of bnet forums, sad ... | ||
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norterrible
United States618 Posts
On August 10 2011 02:35 Olsson wrote: All of you need to shut the fuck up. Protoss might not be as "complete" as terran but it's damn the best race. Make units anywhere on the map, most supply efficient, storm, dt, feedback, forcefield, colossi, blink and CHRONO and the most powerful cheese in the game cannon rush. You are so retarded zerg spent 5 months figuring out ZvP and we couldn't simply because it WAS broken. If you cant figure this out in 5 months then I might agree but now youre whining after a protoss that isn't in form anymore lost to this. Good argument, I'll just cannon rush every game. | ||
Empyrean
17077 Posts
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