Hello TL, This is not a balance whine,its a pure discussion on what should be done
Its been along time since this was discussed and i though i can give it a try,seeing that protoss isn't doing great at all,and also seeing + Show Spoiler +
MC goes in Up&Down (what)??
Does the protoss need a metagame shift?Or we don't have a good smart player that will lead us to better presentation? What do you guys think?What should be done?I hope that thread will be a good discussion on what we should do and what we should improve or see..
Please NO FLAMING in my thread and the bashing will also be forbidden. This is not a balance whine its just a discussion on what we should do.
Admins,please let us discuss that state of the protoss that we are in and don't close the thread. Thanks if its fulfilled International WinRate%
On August 09 2011 06:35 stormfoxSC wrote: I went through the international individual leagues, for the sake of augmenting the OP with a larger data set. Korea is good to look at, but the data set is very small (and only incorporates the Korean state of the game, so to speak).
Individual League Winners & Runner-Ups (1061 events):
First Place Terran - 498 (46.94%) Zerg - 263 (24.79%) Protoss - 264 (24.88%) Unknown - 36 (3.39%)
Second Place Terran - 433 (40.81%) Zerg - 299 (28.18%) Protoss - 290 (27.33%) Unknown - 39 (3.68%)*
Bonus! Since we know that the balance of the game has changed radically between 2010 and 2011 thanks to the great patches Blizzard has released, let's break down the data between these two years.
Individual League Winners & Runner-Ups for 2010 (358 events):
First Place Terran - 206 (57.54%) Zerg - 49 (13.69%) Protoss - 88 (24.58%) Unknown - 15 (4.19%)
Second Place Terran - 159 (44.41%) Zerg - 91 (25.42%) Protoss - 93 (25.98%) Unknown - 15 (4.19%)*
Non-mirror winrates by race for July: Terran: 54.2% Zerg: 48.6% Protoss: 46.7%
Winrates by matchup for July: TvZ: 55.4% PvT: 47.2% ZvP: 53.8%
Average winrates by race (overall): Terran: 53.1% Zerg: 47.1% Protoss: 48.9%
Average winrates by matchup (overall): TvZ: 54.8% PvT: 48.4% ZvP: 49.7%
Average winrates by race (2010): Terran: 54.4% Zerg: 45.8% Protoss: 48.4%
Average winrates by matchup (2010): TvZ: 55.5% PvT: 46.6% ZvP: 47.9%
Average winrates by race (2011): Terran: 52.3% Zerg: 47.9% Protoss: 49.2%
Average winrates by matchup (2011): TvZ: 54.4% PvT: 49.4% ZvP: 50.8%
-------------------
* Random finals appearances are included in the Unknown column, since I was too lazy to make an entirely new column of data for a few data points (<5) that only appear for runner-up (there were no random 1st place wins).
Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings)
I think this is a balance whine thread beneath the layer. You're saying that MC goes in Up&Down but it's not logical because he's a good player henceforth the "what??". It's because he just like Jinro probably isn't motivated to practice and isn't as good right now anymore.
In my opinion protosses have been doing the same thing for a year now and they need to start doing drops and more aggressive things.
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
Well the comman consensus is that protoss needs a unit that can harrass otherwise the protoss has to play almost perfectly to not fall behind against the other races as it is hard to get ahead without such a harrass unit.
Such a unit would have to do splash damage and be reasonably priced like the blue flame hellion or banelings. The only thing that current fits the bill is High Templar doing storm drops, but high templar are incredably expensive on gas and are very high up in the tech tree. If you are getting templar quickly you genrally need the storms to survive frontal assaults and combined with the warp prism fragility you can easily lose them for no damage.
Workers can also run away from storms compared with blue flame hellions there is no running away only splitting and with banelings they make up for the ability to run away with the insane damage they can do in a second.
So at the moment i don't think protoss have a unit that can fulfill this role and so mabye that is what is holding back protoss at the moment.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
I think this is a balance whine thread beneath the layer. You're saying that MC goes in Up&Down but it's not logical because he's a good player henceforth the "what??". It's because he just like Jinro probably isn't motivated to practice and isn't as good right now anymore.
In my opinion protosses have been doing the same thing for a year now and they need to start doing drops and more aggressive things.
yeah, but toss drops are weak anyway coupled with the warp prism and time taken out of the robo, makes toss have the weakest drop options in the game.
Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Let's see how GSL August plays out first. We have some results, and the next few days should be very telling about the power (or lack thereof) of Protoss.
So far the only Protoss to beat a Terran (in Code S or A) was Tassadar beating the foreigner Fenix, whose skill level is definitely below that of top Koreans and vanvanth won one game in his best of three Code A match vs GanZi.
Extreme, Tails, and MC were by Terrans eliminated winning no games.
The only PvZ so far was Inca vs DRG, and DRG won 2-0.
MC was completely helpless against both MVP and Noblesse. The 1-1-1 all in esp is almost impossible to defend.
I think the problem lies in the lack of mobility of toss ground units. Without FFs, toss is dead against Z. Same goes with T, when the MMM ball can just kite like there's no tomorrow, and all it takes are a couple of ghosts to render sentries worthless.
It has been increasingly frustrating to ladder as a P. Looking to race switch soon.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Roggay wrote: You need to learn to use spoilers if you don't want to be warned/banned.
Also, I don't think this thread is a particularly good idea.
And the fact that your name is "Crying" is pretty ironic.
I think that thread is not a balance whine its just a discussion between protosses who are finding they race in bad state Its pretty bad seeing how progamers are doing..
MC was completely helpless against both MVP and Noblesse. The 1-1-1 all in esp is almost impossible to defend.
I think the problem lies in the lack of mobility of toss ground units. Without FFs, toss is dead against Z. Same goes with T, when the MMM ball can just kite like there's no tomorrow, and all it takes are a couple of ghosts to render sentries worthless.
It has been increasingly frustrating to ladder as a P. Looking to race switch soon.
I haven't seen the games yet...but by skimming the LR thread + Show Spoiler +
Didn't MVP just contain MC and Nobelesse went for a double medivac allin drop?
All of our problems stem from the early game it seems. Early pushes from terrans are ripping us apart because no one is going to four gate to defend extreme greediness of teching to 1-1-1 and we have one less warp in to face all-ins, any unit lost in the beginning is a complete game changer. Harder to expo versus zerg because warpgate timing makes 3gate expo (which isn't that great anyway) still unsafe versus roach/ling allin. Zerg can play greedy as possible without threat of extreme early pressure and secure an extremely quick third now that 6 gate timings have been largely figured out. Forge fast expand is also worthless now as we can see from Ret/Nestea/Losira style response of an extremely fast third where they can get 160 supply of roaches and 60-70 drones compared to a 70-80 supply protoss.
The warpgate nerf did nothing to change PvP. i don't even know what that pylon nerf did besides make building placement and cannoning against mutas a bit more annoying. Zergs and terrans figured out how to defend it before that at the higher levels. It may have elevated a lot of people on ladder to somewhere they shouldn't have been, but it also destroyed protoss early game in the higher levels.
PvT seems completely fine and skill-based in the midgame. PvZ always feels like you are behind now that there is no viable harassment options and the threat of your early expo getting all-inned.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Kevan wrote: Give it time. If it still seems imbalanced then it will probably get fixed.
None of these issues are new, they're just being brought to greater light lately.
The 1-1-1 is not new, reliance on FF and lack of harass/build punishment is not particularly new - all things created by the limitation of 4gate/VR/HT etc.
I agree that more time is always helpful to gain reliable results, but people aren't just starting to bring these things up.
MC was completely helpless against both MVP and Noblesse. The 1-1-1 all in esp is almost impossible to defend.
I think the problem lies in the lack of mobility of toss ground units. Without FFs, toss is dead against Z. Same goes with T, when the MMM ball can just kite like there's no tomorrow, and all it takes are a couple of ghosts to render sentries worthless.
It has been increasingly frustrating to ladder as a P. Looking to race switch soon.
I find laddering as P frustrating too.And if u ask yes i can loose ,i loose regularly 10 in a row,and then win 10 in a row ...SC2 is not the only game i loose in ,but others game i loose i see my mistakes and try to fix them , but in sc2 i feel that i couldn't have doen better to this exact period when i die.Its just like im reading newspapper and cant find a gramatical mistake...?!
On August 09 2011 23:10 Roggay wrote: You need to learn to use spoilers if you don't want to be warned/banned.
Also, I don't think this thread is a particularly good idea.
And the fact that your name is "Crying" is pretty ironic.
I think it's not bad to have all protoss-QQ in one thread...admins could go easy on our poor souls here and ban the harsher in all the other threads. Kinda like the "things that make me rage" thread.
On topic: I seriously think we need some sick strong cheeses, like 3 gate voidray into DT...or dunno. Something that changes the metagame HARD, so that terrans will stop all-inn-ing at 10 mins and zergs will stop droning till 10 mins.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
They could perhaps consider removing the upgrade for prisms and have included passively.
Z harass: bane drops, ling run bys, burrowed infestor, etc T harass: Dropships so strong esp with stim P harass: DTs? with a detector is rendered completely useless. Phoenixes not always feasible. Warp prisms so weak, also no high DPS units to drop them like marines.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Roggay wrote: You need to learn to use spoilers if you don't want to be warned/banned.
Also, I don't think this thread is a particularly good idea.
And the fact that your name is "Crying" is pretty ironic.
I think it's not bad to have all protoss-QQ in one thread...admins could go easy on our poor souls here and ban the harsher in all the other threads. Kinda like the "things that make me rage" thread.
On topic: I seriously think we need some sick strong cheeses, like 3 gate voidray into DT...or dunno. Something that changes the metagame HARD, so that terrans will stop all-inn-ing at 10 mins and zergs will stop droning till 10 mins.
I don't see why admins should close this thread,where i can discuss this thing if not in TeamLiquid? I don't wanna go to the bnet forums where is full of kids,i just want to hear different suggestions and draw a conclusion out of them,nothing else
why do i totally expect to see this kinda thread after watching today's gsl XD
i believe that atm korean knows that terran is the race that you can exploit and abuse so much to get the win, which is why there are so many pro korean terrans in the first place. fix? Lets talk about that in 2013 when LotV comes out.
pretty sure hallucinations when in detection get lower attack priority from the tanks and are wasted space. can correct me if i'm wrong, haven't played in awhile.
I dont know how you guys see it. This a tough time for toss. It really sux to ladder, Dying to cheesy build in the early game, and getting own by deathball in the late game. And when finally I get PvP, I die to 4 gate......
On August 09 2011 23:16 klops wrote: mc went hallucination vs a raven.
pretty sure hallucinations when in detection get lower attack priority from the tanks and are wasted space. can correct me if i'm wrong, haven't played in awhile.
You're correct, but if they are sent in first they will still be attacked and absorb a decent amount of damage.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Zergs don't all use Infestors. Losira and Nestea are by far the best ZvPers in the world and neither use Infestors regularly. They just understand the timings of the match ups.
nope he didn't, but it was still a sort of all in which MC saw coming.
I think its safe to say that MC has one of the best mechanics for P. If he knows exactly whats coming, yet fails to respond to it, what hope do the rest of us have It's also not just this one occasion, but several forms of T all ins have literally worked in 90% of situations against P. Esp the 1-1-1 banshee, tank, marine, marauder.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
pretty sure hallucinations when in detection get lower attack priority from the tanks and are wasted space. can correct me if i'm wrong, haven't played in awhile.
Who cares even if it was a big blunder? Would 100/100 elsewhere and more sentry energy have done anything to stop MVP from losing like one bunker and a couple marines compared to MC losing almost everything?
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP 7 range but feedback and fungal same range
This is not a balance whine,its a pure discussion on what should be done
This seems contradictory.
MC goes in Up&Down (what)??
So? MVP has dropped to Code A before. I'm for reasonable balance discussions as much as anybody but this is such a horrible and insufficient basis for one. I mean I could just as easily counter your argument with the fact that Tassadar won Code A...
If you really want to have a discussion, bring up winrates, compare winrates now to win rates before, mention some relevant patch changes that might have caused the problem, look at matchup statistics, etc. Is Protoss realy broken? Or is PvT broken? Or is one particular PvT all in broken?
Generally I feel Protoss early game is very binary vs zerg and terran. I feel they have alot more one base options than we do, I feel they have alot more safer expand options than we do. I feel they have better harass.
When you thought aclicking and fclicking couldn't be any easier....
Most problems with Protoss (apart from dealing with the 1/1/1 allin) is that you're unable to use your spellcasters. So the solution is simple: spread out your casters. Terran complain that Infestors are hard to EMP, even though for them to land a full fungal it takes 7 range. HT, however, have 9 range. Therefore with a well positioned deathball EMPs will be far less effective on sentries (meaning you can abuse the lack of mobility if used properly), and of course High Templar.
Compare PvT to PvZ and you see PvZ has a far more balanced winrate because Zerg don't have ghosts, therefore it's clear what the problem is here.
pretty sure hallucinations when in detection get lower attack priority from the tanks and are wasted space. can correct me if i'm wrong, haven't played in awhile.
You're correct, but if they are sent in first they will still be attacked and absorb a decent amount of damage.
i added a spoiler tag to my original post if you don't mind editing yours.
On August 09 2011 23:19 Gutrot wrote: Generally I feel Protoss early game is very binary vs zerg and terran. I feel they have alot more one base options than we do, I feel they have alot more safer expand options than we do. I feel they have better harass.
Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
Also if you're complaining about EMP or Fungals, spread your army out, it annoys me when Protoss whine about how OP fungal is but keep their army in a ball that is covered in 1 fungal
On August 09 2011 23:05 AXygnus wrote: Carriers, it must have carriers, since we never even use them...
San makes carriers PvZ and PvT and wins, but I don't think it's a really great strat.
I think we desperately need an innovator to help toss see how to play better, our innovators now are only Tyler, maybe Sage... Alicia? nobody top-top tier is altering the Protoss metagame.
On August 09 2011 23:16 klops wrote: mc went hallucination vs a raven.
pretty sure hallucinations when in detection get lower attack priority from the tanks and are wasted space. can correct me if i'm wrong, haven't played in awhile.
You're correct, but if they are sent in first they will still be attacked and absorb a decent amount of damage.
Plus MC had a ton of Sentries, and it's not like their energy could have been better spent. They did absorb a few shots at the beginning of the battle.
On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote: Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings)
That's not true, carrier destroy viking or even marines, the counter as terran of carrier is the BC, I think carrier should be used way more, I myself try them but it is hard to find good timings.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range.
Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
I open with a warp prism build vT and vZ whenever I get close air. it's not as strong as you think it would be.
pretty sure hallucinations when in detection get lower attack priority from the tanks and are wasted space. can correct me if i'm wrong, haven't played in awhile.
Who cares even if it was a big blunder? Would 100/100 elsewhere and more sentry energy have done anything to stop MVP from losing like one bunker and a couple marines compared to MC losing almost everything?
probly not. i'd have to rewatch and look at the techs, i don't remember.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
Cute play might entertain people but solid/conservative players like Nestea and MVP will almost always crush that kind of bullshit.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Crying wrote: And also that thread comes right today because + Show Spoiler +
If the best can't do anything about,then what leaves for us,the players that try to play the game?
Because at lower levels balance is a whole other beast, in your average diamond game (for example) people aren't doing MVP-class 1/1/1 contains.
in 90% of the games it is still gonna come down to who makes less mistakes or who doesn't make big mistakes.
And someone tell me, why did 1/1/1 start to become such a big problem (haven't watched a lot of gsl untill today, and I almost never follow LR threads because of the excessive complaints). I mean, the build is really old and I thought Protoss had that figured out by now, so where did this "we can't beat 1/1/1 builds" come from suddenly?
Well MC's hybris pretty much made him go to the up and downs, no one forced him to pick Mvp in his group. It's not the first time this happened to him either.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range.
Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
True.
And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome.
It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
I open with a warp prism build vT and vZ whenever I get close air. it's not as strong as you think it would be.
Well do you use it when they're in their base? Or do you use it when they move out to attack? It can be like Ling backstabs, pulling the Terran army back.
Well for those of us not playing at GSL levels the game isn't imbalanced at all. I do fine in pvz and pvt and have since release. I'm sure most of you are the same.
There really isn't a problem as far as I'm concerned.
If a race is weak at the top levels the solution will eventually have to come from the top players. People just have to accept that the GSL is mostly a terran show and will stay that way for a long time.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
Every game I get the chance, in GM.
Storm drops are fantastic lategame, but that's lategame. There's a lack of reliable midgame harassment options that don't require extreme tech rushing, which means P's midgame is very fragile and cannot afford mistakes or they will fall behind (barring some sort of timing all-in).
Protoss lacks a unit that can clear out workers/kill tech quickly in the midgame (yeah you can DT drop rush but that build is incredibly fragile and greedy). Dropping 2 immortals is kind of cute but also slower than dropping 8 marines, and more expensive.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range.
Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
True.
And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome.
It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
Get your units on more than 1 control group, get your army on more than 1 control group spread it out so splash isn't as good.
On August 09 2011 23:23 CoMMoDuS wrote: Well MC's hybris pretty much made him go to the up and downs, no one forced him to pick Mvp in his group. It's not the first time this happened to him either.
Any other terran in Korea could have done the exact same thing to him and won. His choice to pick MVP had nothing to do with it and he would probably annihilate MVP, who has bad mid to late game TvP, in a macro game which he was going for.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range.
Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
True.
And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome.
It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
Extremely passive turtling is still the ideal way for Protoss to play. The problem simply lies in the micro of these deathballs. The race has evolved from aclicking with Void-Ray/Colossus to actually needing some sort of care.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.
My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much.
Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range.
Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
Zerg had months of issues and the only way for them to win ZvP was huge economical advantage and very good positioning. Roach Corruptor Hydra was the only composition that worked at the time since infestors didnt have good fungal dps back then. Though Zerg did experiment. Protoss has had a year of a-moving stalker colossi and expecting to win though.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
Every game I get the chance, in GM.
Storm drops are fantastic lategame, but that's lategame. There's a lack of reliable midgame harassment options that don't require extreme tech rushing, which means P's midgame is very fragile and cannot afford mistakes or they will fall behind (barring some sort of timing all-in).
Protoss lacks a unit that can clear out workers/kill tech quickly in the midgame (yeah you can DT drop rush but that build is incredibly fragile and greedy). Dropping 2 immortals is kind of cute but also slower than dropping 8 marines, and more expensive.
Choya v Qxc in the GSTL showed Warp prism speed + Colossus drops and while Choya was blatantly intended it to be cute it also showed potiential.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just warped in a round of units and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose alot before your army can get there.
if terran walls of before your probe scouts him there is no way of knowing what he will do, he could be doing the 1 1 1 or simply just expanding behind it and both these things need two completly diffrent counters, 1 require you to chrono your probes like a madman and the other to cut probes.
there are tons of things like this where protoss just have to take a blind guess and pray its right, if you where right its an even game if not your dead
protoss need immortals to hold early game attacks. going straight to colsi is a punishable cheese. toss have been getting away with it for a long time with pro usage of forcefields, but people have figured out how to punish protoss and exploit their gateway only units.
the game was balanced with every unit in mind and protoss think they can ignore a core unit of their race, the immortal. this is what is holding them back.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range.
Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
True.
And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome.
It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
Because winning against zerg was easy doing it that way, because zergs refused to change so why would we? Plenty of protoss do stuff like that all the time now that zergs have changed their style. Like I said earlier, the problem is completely in the early game. Mid and late game in the matchups are mostly skill reliant (though zerg turtling with mass infestor/spines into mass infestor/broodlord/corruptor late game versus protoss is also completely ridiculous, Morrow 6-1'd Huk that way and the 1 loss came from Morrow not building any lings until full three base saturation verus Huk going 10 gate zealot/sentry)
On August 09 2011 23:27 Knutzi wrote: i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just warped in a round of units and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose alot before your army can get there.
That's not a valid argument. Thousands of Zergs have lost in the same way because we've made drones instead of units and the Terran or Protoss pushes out 5 seconds later.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range.
Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
True.
And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome.
It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
Extremely passive turtling is still the ideal way for Protoss to play.
Right now, it's only the ideal way to get ripped apart the moment you poke out.
Haven't people been practicing sentry drops with zealots or dts? (2 or 3 ff's by a good player) and you basically have a fence and tons of scv or drone kills. I thought I had heard something about that in a thread.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.
My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much.
Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it
LOL what the fuck? MC isn't even out of code S yet, code B what the fuck? Whitera better than MC?? you best be trollin. Whitera can't even compete with the medicore foreigners MC dismantles every time.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Carrier harass?
That makes 0 sense. Think about what makes a good harass unit. Speed, Expendability/Survivability, DPS, and ability to function in small numbers.
Carriers are slow, expensive (in resources, tech, and time), easily destroyed when alone, and require some degree of mass and upgrades to be effective. This is like recommending BC harass.
So? MVP has dropped to Code A before. I'm for reasonable balance discussions as much as anybody but this is such a horrible and insufficient basis for one. I mean I could just as easily counter your argument with the fact that Tassadar won Code A...
If you really want to have a discussion, bring up winrates, compare winrates now to win rates before, mention some relevant patch changes that might have caused the problem, look at matchup statistics, etc. Is Protoss realy broken? Or is PvT broken? Or is one particular PvT all in broken?
On August 09 2011 23:28 mrsaturn wrote: Metagame shift.
protoss need immortals to hold early game attacks. going straight to colsi is a punishable cheese. toss have been getting away with it for a long time with pro usage of forcefields, but people have figured out how to punish protoss and exploit their gateway only units.
the game was balanced with every unit in mind and protoss think they can ignore a core unit of their race, the immortal. this is what is holding them back.
Immortals have 5 range and most of the time are stucked behind your army because units clump really bad? And dont say micro cos 99% of the times there's a chokepoint that fucks u up
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.
My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much.
Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
Every game I get the chance, in GM.
Storm drops are fantastic lategame, but that's lategame. There's a lack of reliable midgame harassment options that don't require extreme tech rushing, which means P's midgame is very fragile and cannot afford mistakes or they will fall behind (barring some sort of timing all-in).
Protoss lacks a unit that can clear out workers/kill tech quickly in the midgame (yeah you can DT drop rush but that build is incredibly fragile and greedy). Dropping 2 immortals is kind of cute but also slower than dropping 8 marines, and more expensive.
Choya v Qxc in the GSTL showed Warp prism speed + Colossus drops and while Choya was blatantly intended it to be cute it also showed potiential.
The 500-200 drop + 100/100 upgrade died when one viking appeared on the field. It didn't come close to paying for itself.
Part of the issue there is that you can drop 8 marines or 4 hellions or 8 lings and hightail it out, making it harder to catch the drop. You can't leave a colossus, or immortals, behind - P doesn't have a really viable unit that is both expendable on harass and capable of dealing damage quickly.
I guess the exception there is the HT, sort of, but that's not a midgame tool.
I think the discussion will go downhill fast, but alas...
Undoutibly, I think the biggest "problem" that Protoss are facing nowadays is early game PvT. Is it imbalanced? I don't know... Is it hard as hell to survive into the mid game? Recent results sure say so.
So that brings the next question, which is what I think you want this thread to mostly be about. How should this problem be addressed? I think it's hard to argue that the metagame isn't in favor of Terran at the moment. That's not to say that it's *impossible* to hold off a 1-1-1 allin or various other allins (without doing an allin of your own). QTIP's guide to holding off a 1-1-1 is reasonably good IF you can scout a 1-1-1. Unfortunately, it dies pretty hard to just about everything else (2rax pressure/3rax allin come to mind). Does the solution lie in "better scouting"? Perhaps. As metagame evolves, better responses will be developed, that much is for sure. MC today showed some awfully non-innovative ways to play vs terran, unfortunately.
As for the rest of "State of the Protoss", PvT late-game is incredibly fun to watch from a spectator standpoint, and (for my diamond level nooby skills) extrememly fun to play. The balancing act/tech switches between Collousi/HT and Viking/ghost make it such an interesting matchup. At both my noob level, and at a professional level, it seems reasonably well balanced.
PvP is slowly evolving past 4gate vs 4gate on non-TA maps, which looks promissing. It's nice to see a 2nd base in PvP from time to time =P.
PvZ early/mid game appears to be reasonable, too. I have a mild problem with PvZ late game Infestor/BL, though. Unlike PvT where there's a nice balance between Collousi/HT and Viking/Ghost, there's no parity in PvZ. HT provide a *reasonable* answer to infestors, but the range of BL + the swarm of broodlings make it impossibly hard to feedback the infestors. Not to mention, the effective range of fungal (that is, range + radius) is greater than the range of feedback. Using stalkers versus the BL only works if you can blink under them when there's not a bunch of other stuff there. Blinking under the BL to meet a swarm of 40 lings (which isn't too unusual, until you get to super late game) isn't fun. Trying to answer with voidrays is difficult, since they'll get fungal'd if they stack, and neural'd if they stray too far. I once thought carriers were an OK response, but with neural + corruptor (it's hard to get BL without corruptors, after all), they just get owned too.
So to reduce the wall-of-text effect, I added a paragraph break. I just feel like PvZ late-game would be more exciting (and, more balanced) if there was a nice parity between Collousi/HT and BL/Ultralisk. As I see it now, there's almost no reason for a zerg player to switch from BL/Infestor to Ultra/X (probably Ultra/Ling? Ultra/Roach?) because the Infestor is so damn good at handling almost everything the protoss can throw at it. If you're using lots of low-cost gateway units, then fungal deals with them effectively. If you're using high-cost robo/stargate units, neural does a more-than-fantastic job.
One thought I had about PvZ late-game was to make it so that infestors could not neural massive units (like how they can't neural ultras, but for all massive units). This would make the collousi and carrier reasonable responses to infestors, while still allowing infestors to neural immortals/voidrays, if they get out of position. Likewise, I feel this would shift the late-game away from all Infestor/BL and encourage more ultralisk play (since ultralisk deal reasonably well with collousi), and we'd once again have that nice rock-paper-scizzors effect with late-game units in the matchup.
Just my $0.02. If you disagree, more power to you.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Carrier harass?
That makes 0 sense. Think about what makes a good harass unit. Speed, Expendability/Survivability, DPS, and ability to function in small numbers.
Carriers are slow, expensive (in resources, tech, and time), easily destroyed when alone, and require some degree of mass and upgrades to be effective. This is like recommending BC harass.
On August 09 2011 23:04 Crying wrote: Hello TL, This is not a balance whine,its a pure discussion on what should be done
Its been along time since this was discussed and i though i can give it a try,seeing that protoss isn't doing great at all,and also seeing + Show Spoiler +
MC goes in Up&Down (what)??
Does the protoss need a metagame shift?Or we don't have a good smart player that will lead us to better presentation? What do you guys think?What should be done?I hope that thread will be a good discussion on what we should do and what we should improve or see..
Please NO FLAMING in my thread and the bashing will also be forbidden. This is not a balance whine its just a discussion on what we should do.
Admins,please let us discuss that state of the protoss that we are in and don't close the thread. Thanks if its fulfilled International WinRate%
On August 09 2011 06:35 stormfoxSC wrote: I went through the international individual leagues, for the sake of augmenting the OP with a larger data set. Korea is good to look at, but the data set is very small (and only incorporates the Korean state of the game, so to speak).
Individual League Winners & Runner-Ups (1061 events):
First Place Terran - 498 (46.94%) Zerg - 263 (24.79%) Protoss - 264 (24.88%) Unknown - 36 (3.39%)
Second Place Terran - 433 (40.81%) Zerg - 299 (28.18%) Protoss - 290 (27.33%) Unknown - 39 (3.68%)*
Bonus! Since we know that the balance of the game has changed radically between 2010 and 2011 thanks to the great patches Blizzard has released, let's break down the data between these two years.
Individual League Winners & Runner-Ups for 2010 (358 events):
First Place Terran - 206 (57.54%) Zerg - 49 (13.69%) Protoss - 88 (24.58%) Unknown - 15 (4.19%)
Second Place Terran - 159 (44.41%) Zerg - 91 (25.42%) Protoss - 93 (25.98%) Unknown - 15 (4.19%)*
Non-mirror winrates by race for July: Terran: 54.2% Zerg: 48.6% Protoss: 46.7%
Winrates by matchup for July: TvZ: 55.4% PvT: 47.2% ZvP: 53.8%
Average winrates by race (overall): Terran: 53.1% Zerg: 47.1% Protoss: 48.9%
Average winrates by matchup (overall): TvZ: 54.8% PvT: 48.4% ZvP: 49.7%
Average winrates by race (2010): Terran: 54.4% Zerg: 45.8% Protoss: 48.4%
Average winrates by matchup (2010): TvZ: 55.5% PvT: 46.6% ZvP: 47.9%
Average winrates by race (2011): Terran: 52.3% Zerg: 47.9% Protoss: 49.2%
Average winrates by matchup (2011): TvZ: 54.4% PvT: 49.4% ZvP: 50.8%
-------------------
* Random finals appearances are included in the Unknown column, since I was too lazy to make an entirely new column of data for a few data points (<5) that only appear for runner-up (there were no random 1st place wins).
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
I open with a warp prism build vT and vZ whenever I get close air. it's not as strong as you think it would be.
Well do you use it when they're in their base? Or do you use it when they move out to attack? It can be like Ling backstabs, pulling the Terran army back.
I use it when they're out but it's not a simple matter of out or in. SCVs and drones die very slowly to stalkers and sentries and can run away easily from zealots. Also any reduction to your army size to harass makes defense much harder. This is especially true early game for toss when our armies our most fragile.
On August 09 2011 23:28 mrsaturn wrote: Metagame shift.
protoss need immortals to hold early game attacks. going straight to colsi is a punishable cheese. toss have been getting away with it for a long time with pro usage of forcefields, but people have figured out how to punish protoss and exploit their gateway only units.
the game was balanced with every unit in mind and protoss think they can ignore a core unit of their race, the immortal. this is what is holding them back.
Immortals suck so hard it's not even funny. You have to micro them seperately while controlling the rest of ur units + there is no possible way to retreat with them.
Carriers aside, Protoss employ every pretty much every unit in every matchup currently. If there is going to be a 'metagame' shift then it will almost certainly be timing based.
That's what has kept Protoss competitive for the past couple months as is. 6/7 gate timings, +2 blink all ins, etc. It's not as if Protoss has been floating on the back of awesome or overpowered units and not innovating. I'd argue that these guys have pushed the race pretty near to the edge of what's possible in terms of unit composition, expansion timing and build orders.
Def not imba, it's just zerg and terran learned to use Infestors and ghosts at the same time and we're struggling to solve that problem. I have faith in our toss leaders to lead us out of this.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.
My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much.
Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it
Firstly MC is still Code S....he's just in up and downs.
Secondly Huk and MC are infinitely superior to White Ra in all match ups. Massive LOL at the idea that winning is not skill. Winning is all that matters ever.
White Ra is a mediocre foreign Toss with gimmicky play who has a lot of fans because he speaks in broken English and is a 'character'. That's fine, but as a player he's nothing special and gets slapped down really fast by solid players and has no major tournament results to his name since people actually learnt how to play the game in the last six months.
In the words of Tyler: "You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range.
Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
True.
And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome.
It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
Extremely passive turtling is still the ideal way for Protoss to play.
Right now, it's only the ideal way to get ripped apart the moment you poke out.
At least make an argument instead of stating your opinion.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range.
Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
True.
And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome.
It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
Because winning against zerg was easy doing it that way, because zergs refused to change so why would we? Plenty of protoss do stuff like that all the time now that zergs have changed their style.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote: Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"... Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle... I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever... I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
Oh cry. Zerg had months of issues against both terran and protosses. It wasn't until the infestor buff they figured it out and even then they had to start using and experimenting with infestors for a month or so. Terrans rarely use ghosts even now same goes with Protoss. T and P have anti-casters with feedback/emp but zerg doesn't. Use your anti-casters. One HT can take care of four infestors, EMP, Feedback, Fungal all have the same range.
Zerg had months of a-moving roach/hydra into stalker/colossi.
True.
And Protoss had (and still has) months of extremely passive turtling, not contesting air control or utilizing harassment, and a one-army syndrome.
It's just as fundamentally wrong as what Zergs were doing.
Extremely passive turtling is still the ideal way for Protoss to play.
Right now, it's only the ideal way to get ripped apart the moment you poke out.
At least make an argument instead of stating your opinion.
I haven't seen any arguments you made in your reply to me, so I just responded in kind.
You won't be able to hold and defend a 3rd base long enough against a good dynamic T/Z player to even get to the deathball stage of the game. On most maps (and especially newer/bigger ones) you just can't and won't passively defend 3 bases with one army and zero map control any more.
I don't play P or T but I follow a lot of tournaments.
Protoss have a really hard time to stop those Terran all-ins. They'll find a way to stop them or Blizzard will patch a timing in Terran builds (that's what they do :p : stim upgrade, concussive shells, warp gates, etc).
I feel like in mid/end game, in straight battles, TvP is balanced. But those Terran drops are insanes against protoss. They often need 3 or 4 rounds of warp-in to stop the drops (if they don't already have stalkers in their base). A full medivac is so cost efficient against gateway units. And Marauders' damages are insane against buildings lol, I see a lot of protoss losing games because their templar archive/twilight council are constantly being killed so they can't finish their key upgrades.
This matchup is not a disaster, it's really exciting to obs in tournaments.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
I open with a warp prism build vT and vZ whenever I get close air. it's not as strong as you think it would be.
Well do you use it when they're in their base? Or do you use it when they move out to attack? It can be like Ling backstabs, pulling the Terran army back.
I use it when they're out but it's not a simple matter of out or in. SCVs and drones die very slowly to stalkers and sentries and can run away easily from zealots. Also any reduction to your army size to harass makes defense much harder. This is especially true early game for toss when our armies our most fragile.
Warp Prism harass does extend into the mid game and the late game very effectively.
2 Sentries and Zealots? FF the mineral line and trap them?
On August 09 2011 23:04 Crying wrote: Hello TL, This is not a balance whine,its a pure discussion on what should be done
Its been along time since this was discussed and i though i can give it a try,seeing that protoss isn't doing great at all,and also seeing + Show Spoiler +
MC goes in Up&Down (what)??
Does the protoss need a metagame shift?Or we don't have a good smart player that will lead us to better presentation? What do you guys think?What should be done?I hope that thread will be a good discussion on what we should do and what we should improve or see..
Please NO FLAMING in my thread and the bashing will also be forbidden. This is not a balance whine its just a discussion on what we should do.
Admins,please let us discuss that state of the protoss that we are in and don't close the thread. Thanks if its fulfilled International WinRate%
On August 09 2011 06:35 stormfoxSC wrote: I went through the international individual leagues, for the sake of augmenting the OP with a larger data set. Korea is good to look at, but the data set is very small (and only incorporates the Korean state of the game, so to speak).
Individual League Winners & Runner-Ups (1061 events):
First Place Terran - 498 (46.94%) Zerg - 263 (24.79%) Protoss - 264 (24.88%) Unknown - 36 (3.39%)
Second Place Terran - 433 (40.81%) Zerg - 299 (28.18%) Protoss - 290 (27.33%) Unknown - 39 (3.68%)*
Bonus! Since we know that the balance of the game has changed radically between 2010 and 2011 thanks to the great patches Blizzard has released, let's break down the data between these two years.
Individual League Winners & Runner-Ups for 2010 (358 events):
First Place Terran - 206 (57.54%) Zerg - 49 (13.69%) Protoss - 88 (24.58%) Unknown - 15 (4.19%)
Second Place Terran - 159 (44.41%) Zerg - 91 (25.42%) Protoss - 93 (25.98%) Unknown - 15 (4.19%)*
Non-mirror winrates by race for July: Terran: 54.2% Zerg: 48.6% Protoss: 46.7%
Winrates by matchup for July: TvZ: 55.4% PvT: 47.2% ZvP: 53.8%
Average winrates by race (overall): Terran: 53.1% Zerg: 47.1% Protoss: 48.9%
Average winrates by matchup (overall): TvZ: 54.8% PvT: 48.4% ZvP: 49.7%
Average winrates by race (2010): Terran: 54.4% Zerg: 45.8% Protoss: 48.4%
Average winrates by matchup (2010): TvZ: 55.5% PvT: 46.6% ZvP: 47.9%
Average winrates by race (2011): Terran: 52.3% Zerg: 47.9% Protoss: 49.2%
Average winrates by matchup (2011): TvZ: 54.4% PvT: 49.4% ZvP: 50.8%
-------------------
* Random finals appearances are included in the Unknown column, since I was too lazy to make an entirely new column of data for a few data points (<5) that only appear for runner-up (there were no random 1st place wins).
Yeah, because it certainly would've changed that game if he had 100/100 invested elsewhere and his sentries forcefielded the SHIT out of those 8+ bunkers, right? Maybe MVP would've lost like 2 more marines to make the total losses something like 4 marines and a bunker.
On August 09 2011 23:33 HubertFelix wrote: I don't play P or T but I follow a lot of tournaments.
Protoss have a really hard time to stop those Terran all-ins. They'll find a way to stop them or Blizzard will patch a timing in Terran builds (that's what they do :p : stim upgrade, concussive shells, warp gates, etc).
I feel like in mid/end game, in straight battles, TvP is balanced. But those Terran drops are insanes against protoss. They often need 3 or 4 rounds of warp-in to stop the drops (if they don't already have stalkers in their base). A full medivac is so cost efficient against gateway units. And Marauders' damages are insane against buildings lol, I see a lot of protoss losing games because their templar archive/twilight council are constantly being killed so they can't finish their key upgrades.
MC got his twilight council i think sniper twice in the NASL Finals in 2games in a row.. and one of th egames the charge was at 99%
If metagame shifts more to warp prism and it proves to be succesful (as it might be) it just causes metagame to shift even more and terrans start to build 1 viking to their main in TvP as they are doing right now in TvT to deny any drop harass..
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
I think Terran scales best with mechanics and multitasking, which is why some of the korean pro terrans completely rape their opponents. Being able to drop multiple places, micro tanks and marines and macro at the same time requires insane talent, but if you can do all of those perfectly, it's pretty hard to lose.
MVP annihilated Nestea with insane multi pronged aggression and it seemed like there was absolutely nothing Nestea could do.
Zerg also benefits quite a bit from multitasking since you can do ling run-bys and harass with mutas. Toss pretty much only has phoenix and warp prism as multitask intensive harassing units. DTs and Zealots are things you just send somewhere and pretty much leave them there.
I don't think the units are necessarily imbalanced, but toss just seems to lack the innovation and the number of good players to win more tournaments.
The reason Noblesse won today was because usually forcefields would cut the terran army, and prevent kiting, and zealots would rip apart half of them. But Terrans have started to micro on their end, and Noblesse just swooped in with a medivac and picked up his forces that were caught by FFs, and unloaded after he moved away. And because stalker DPS is so low, they couldn't kill the medivac in time. That simple maneuver meant that 200 sentry energy did nothing, and the zealots did nothing. So many people think forcefield is so overpowered, but they don't think about how to beat it. The top pros do this simple micro all the time and it makes sentries and zealots all but useless before charge.
On August 09 2011 23:28 mrsaturn wrote: Metagame shift.
protoss need immortals to hold early game attacks. going straight to colsi is a punishable cheese. toss have been getting away with it for a long time with pro usage of forcefields, but people have figured out how to punish protoss and exploit their gateway only units.
the game was balanced with every unit in mind and protoss think they can ignore a core unit of their race, the immortal. this is what is holding them back.
Immortals suck so hard it's not even funny. You have to micro them seperately while controlling the rest of ur units + there is no possible way to retreat with them.
this is what people said about hellions for a long time, but now they've come to their senses. eventually the immortal will be appreciated like the hellion is now. it's only people's preconceived notions that is holding them back.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Kevan wrote: Give it time. If it still seems imbalanced then it will probably get fixed.
None of these issues are new, they're just being brought to greater light lately.
Exactly, if it gets a lot of attention then give it time because if it truly is imbalanced getting a lot of attention increases the chances of getting it patched.
Protoss basically can't do anything vs a player who expects whats coming. If zerg or terran scouts your opening, and knows how to play against it, there's nothing you can do to win, because they have crazy good hard counters to everything we can do.
Open air, and they can go for mass marines or mass hydras.
Open DT's and they can get mass burrow roaches or a raven / marine / banshee / tank push.
Toss openings are only good if the enemy doesn't scout them, otherwise we are behind from the get go.
Just switch to zerg; I have. The only problem is that there are so many ZvZ's now, because people are realizing that toss is a gimmick race, and so they are quitting it. Its a shame. I liked playing toss, but its just not fun relying on your opponent failing to counter you.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Carrier harass?
That makes 0 sense. Think about what makes a good harass unit. Speed, Expendability/Survivability, DPS, and ability to function in small numbers.
Carriers are slow, expensive (in resources, tech, and time), easily destroyed when alone, and require some degree of mass and upgrades to be effective. This is like recommending BC harass.
Broodlord harass works in the same way.
There's a notable difference between BL harass and siegeing with BLs. When a zerg has their whole army underneath the BL's poking an enemy army/expansion, that's a siege. Harass would be sending a BL alone to attack an expansion/mineral line. That would lead to the BL being picked off by blink stalkers/vikings almost instantly.
On August 09 2011 23:28 mrsaturn wrote: Metagame shift.
protoss need immortals to hold early game attacks. going straight to colsi is a punishable cheese. toss have been getting away with it for a long time with pro usage of forcefields, but people have figured out how to punish protoss and exploit their gateway only units.
the game was balanced with every unit in mind and protoss think they can ignore a core unit of their race, the immortal. this is what is holding them back.
Immortals suck so hard it's not even funny. You have to micro them seperately while controlling the rest of ur units + there is no possible way to retreat with them.
this is what people said about hellions for a long time, but now they've come to their senses. eventually the immortal will be appreciated like the hellion is now. it's only people's preconceived notions that is holding them back.
Yeah for sure, people should definitely start researching immortal bomb-shots so they can have four of those 100 mineral units slide into the zerg or terran base on their rocket shoes to wipe out a mineral line in 5 seconds.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Point to consider is the value of those units elsewhere.
If you go mutas or banes, they're key units in your army as well as being shipped off to harass. The same can be said for medivac drops of pretty much anything T has.
Teching to DTs, on the other hand, doesn't boost your army all that much - you harass/delay with them, maybe make archons, but mainly you're backtracking on that tech to then go to a core army unit. Somewhat similar with Phoenixes (I have now forced hydras, I will make a colossus army!) in the vast majority of cases. This means you have to do damage or you are behind, while a denied T drop just means they try again later, nothing lost.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote: Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings)
I hope people aren't forgetting that current protoss problems in PvT seem to be early game related. The 1-1-1 builds and early rax pushes are wreaking the most havoc right now, and in actual macro games protoss is just as strong if not stronger than terran.
Instead of going "this race is fucking HORRIBLE", I think people strive to figure out the perfect way to defend these pushes. If there is any imbalance, it should be pretty easy to fix as well with some slight warpgate change for example.
I think the problems that protoss are having are because the other 2 races changed up their metagame, with more early-game pushes.
Protoss relies very heavily on a few lynch-pin units (sentry, colossus, HT) because their basic units are not as good as the equivalent for the other races. The terran and zerg are just finding timings to punish protoss.
While I wouldn't mind a change to protoss to make them less lynch-pin-ey, I think the current protoss problems can be overcome with some better scouting and safer early game play.
On August 09 2011 23:29 Utinni wrote: Haven't people been practicing sentry drops with zealots or dts? (2 or 3 ff's by a good player) and you basically have a fence and tons of scv or drone kills. I thought I had heard something about that in a thread.
Edit: in regards to early hurassment.
It's great until you discover that roaches/marines can kill the zealots and range and sentries do -3 damage per shot and the gas cost makes your army really weak to counter attack.
I do it now and it's successful, but people are already starting to recognize the drop style and prep for it a little. the slightest preparation shuts it down and it's an incredibly huge investment for a harass strat without the punch and longevity of mutas and medivacs.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.
My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much.
Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it
Firstly MC is still Code S....he's just in up and downs.
Secondly Huk and MC are infinitely superior to White Ra in all match ups. Massive LOL at the idea that winning is not skill. Winning is all that matters ever.
White Ra is a mediocre foreign Toss with gimmicky play who has a lot of fans because he speaks in broken English and is a 'character'. That's fine, but as a player he's nothing special and gets slapped down really fast by solid players and has no major tournament results to his name since people actually learnt how to play the game in the last six months.
In the words of Tyler: "You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler
LOL, All credibility of your argument is thrown out the window with your final quote. You talk about winning being everything, huk, mc > whit-ra... etc etc
Then you quote Tyler, who hasn't won anything recently.
On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote: Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings)
... Sigh
Indeed Incontrol on his stream yesterday had a game where he got 11 or so Carriers to compliment his army against a Mech Terran.
Are we going to have these threads every time a top player falls down to code A?
I just think its a bit silly for all the grandmasters in this thread to have figured out protoss 100% and concluded that the race is indeed the weakest, and that these statistics prove it.
Terran, protoss and zergs have all dominated at different points of SC2 history, Its a never ending cycle and I dont think its right to just jump the gun so fast.
On August 09 2011 23:38 syrupychinadian wrote: I think the problems that protoss are having are because the other 2 races changed up their metagame, with more early-game pushes.
Protoss relies very heavily on a few lynch-pin units (sentry, colossus, HT) because their basic units are not as good as the equivalent for the other races. The terran and zerg are just finding timings to punish protoss.
While I wouldn't mind a change to protoss to make them less lynch-pin-ey, I think the current protoss problems can be overcome with some better scouting and safer early game play.
How can you possibly get any safer than a 3 gate robo? Please enlighten me. I guess protoss just shouldn't expand until we have 5 observers, god damn we should know better!!
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.
My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much.
Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it
I'm sure bashing and trying to slander other people will help improve the state of Protoss (including putting a smiley face to add insult to injury.
As many other people has said, the sole measure of skill skills is results.
Otherwise maybe i should start claiming i'm a better protoss player than white-ra and mc cause i'm coming up with more innovative ideas than them, i just dont have the practice time to improve my mechanics to be better than them yet.
If it was just me and some other guy to say protoss needs redoing its fine im gonna say myself IM BAD and just start to do other things ,but even some progamers are saying it
Alicia wrote on his twitter David kim please save us.. Its not a random thing that even progamers are struggling
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.
In that case, teching to DT costs:
100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon
and still they do less damage to a mineral line.
925/425
loses to a spore crawler or an overseer
On August 09 2011 23:40 Senx wrote: Are we going to have these threads every time a top player falls down to code A?
I just think its a bit silly for all the grandmasters in this thread to have figured out protoss 100% and concluded that the race is indeed the weakest, and that these statistics prove it.
Terran, protoss and zergs have all dominated at different points of SC2 history, Its a never ending cycle and I dont think its right to just jump the gun so fast.
I believe Korean protoss are something like a 20% winrate versus Korean terran in the GSL right now.
On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote: Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings)
... Sigh
Indeed Incontrol on his stream yesterday had a game where he got 11 or so Carriers to compliment his army against a Mech Terran.
It worked damn well, too damn well.
And MC won with 130 supply vs a maxed mech terran, leading to even Jinro commenting in the thread that Mech was terrible.
The issue isn't mech, or being able to beat the Terran army in a straight fight. It's all-ins and a lack of flexible midgame options in the harass department.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.
In that case, teching to DT costs:
100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon
On August 09 2011 23:29 Utinni wrote: Haven't people been practicing sentry drops with zealots or dts? (2 or 3 ff's by a good player) and you basically have a fence and tons of scv or drone kills. I thought I had heard something about that in a thread.
Edit: in regards to early hurassment.
It's great until you discover that roaches/marines can kill the zealots and range and sentries do -3 damage per shot and the gas cost makes your army really weak to counter attack.
I do it now and it's successful, but people are already starting to recognize the drop style and prep for it a little. the slightest preparation shuts it down and it's an incredibly huge investment for a harass strat without the punch and longevity of mutas and medivacs.
Then don't invest so much in it, It doesn't have to be about the SCV or Drones killed it can be about losing mining time instead, it's all beneficial to the cause and the THREAT of being able to drop zealots or stalkers int he mineral line is what makes it effective.
The THREAT of a Terran drop makes me put Spine crawlers in my mineral line The THREAT of Mutalisk harass makes Terrans put missile turrets in their base The THREAT of Protoss drops makes people multitask that little bit more and either leave army at home (leading to a weaker push) or put up static defense.
On August 09 2011 23:27 Knutzi wrote: i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just warped in a round of units and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose alot before your army can get there.
if terran walls of before your probe scouts him there is no way of knowing what he will do, he could be doing the 1 1 1 or simply just expanding behind it and both these things need two completly diffrent counters, 1 require you to chrono your probes like a madman and the other to cut probes.
there are tons of things like this where protoss just have to take a blind guess and pray its right, if you where right its an even game if not your dead
Yes protoss really needs midgame harasment option that don't actually make them commit all in And no WarpPrism + 4 zealots is horrible cos u can stop it just by moving your works out of mineral line,we need something that makes good damage fast and if the opponent is not careful to remove his workers in time he suffers eco loss 4 zealots cant even kill an scv if they move as fast as possible
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.
My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much.
Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it
Firstly MC is still Code S....he's just in up and downs.
Secondly Huk and MC are infinitely superior to White Ra in all match ups. Massive LOL at the idea that winning is not skill. Winning is all that matters ever.
White Ra is a mediocre foreign Toss with gimmicky play who has a lot of fans because he speaks in broken English and is a 'character'. That's fine, but as a player he's nothing special and gets slapped down really fast by solid players and has no major tournament results to his name since people actually learnt how to play the game in the last six months.
In the words of Tyler: "You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler
LOL, All credibility of your argument is thrown out the window with your final quote. You talk about winning being everything, huk, mc > whit-ra... etc etc
Then you quote Tyler, who hasn't won anything recently.
How's that conservative play going for him?
You do understand that this entire thread is just people who haven't won anything or even participated in a prized tournament quoting and arguing against each other, right?
If you don't think Tyler's opinion is "high level" enough and can't look past the results (which in regards to this subject mean absolutely nothing), then I don't see why you would even engage in any discussion on this topic.
Just read what MC said in his last interview, and you have what you want.
Protoss doesn't have a harass unit like the banshee/hellion/baneling bomb, and they don't have mules or inject larvae to boost economy quickly after taking damage from one of these (cb doesn't quite cut it). Terran and zerg aren't op imo, they're just more complete (which means toss has to do everything absolutely perfectly). They have better pressure (toss has to go semi all-in if they want to do damage), better harass, more possibilities,... I think adding reavers and a blueflame/baneling vs workers nerf would do good to the game.
Part of the reason of the lynch pin play is because of the tech routes, the Stargate is pretty much unused in PvT and PvP because in both match ups the Robo is so much more viable, the SG have some niche utility but nothing like a medivac. While the 1-1-1 timings hits, it uses three units that pretty much force Protoss into a weird position, so those lynch units are so much more important, marines will roll through stalkers and banshees do pretty good against anything that's not a stalker. The siege tanks are just there for zoning, most the time if you don't engage right, your sentry count is worthless because the tanks zone better than FF can, and you need those zealots in the face of the tanks most of the time.
I wouldn't mind seeing something like the WP going into warp mode faster, its current animation is way to cumbersome. Maybe something like a mobile warp, where you can warp inside the prism, and then drop them or have the option to warp outside the prism.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.
In that case, teching to DT costs:
100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon
and still they do less damage to a mineral line.
that's
975/525 in case you were keeping score.
And Archons can still be used as part of the main army.
On August 09 2011 23:29 Utinni wrote: Haven't people been practicing sentry drops with zealots or dts? (2 or 3 ff's by a good player) and you basically have a fence and tons of scv or drone kills. I thought I had heard something about that in a thread.
Edit: in regards to early hurassment.
It's great until you discover that roaches/marines can kill the zealots and range and sentries do -3 damage per shot and the gas cost makes your army really weak to counter attack.
I do it now and it's successful, but people are already starting to recognize the drop style and prep for it a little. the slightest preparation shuts it down and it's an incredibly huge investment for a harass strat without the punch and longevity of mutas and medivacs.
Then don't invest so much in it, It doesn't have to be about the SCV or Drones killed it can be about losing mining time instead, it's all beneficial to the cause and the THREAT of being able to drop zealots or stalkers int he mineral line is what makes it effective.
The THREAT of a Terran drop makes me put Spine crawlers in my mineral line The THREAT of Mutalisk harass makes Terrans put missile turrets in their base The THREAT of Protoss drops makes people multitask that little bit more and either leave army at home (leading to a weaker push) or put up static defense.
The TECH is the investment, the army that's not at your base defending your fragile opening is the investment., it's not like you can fake the build and expect your opponent to react and prepare for it. that's what's silly about a Terran saying this. A medivac has a great long term use, the more your make the better. Once you have one warp prism it's usefulness drops significantly when you make a second and third..
I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.
ANSWER TO SENTRY/MUTA Harass.
What's more of an investment, four mutas or four sentries with a warp prism. Four mutas are more expensive and are higher tech and takes longer to get.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.
In that case, teching to DT costs:
100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon
and still they do less damage to a mineral line.
that's
975/525 in case you were keeping score.
And Archons can still be used as part of the main army.
LOL wow you are ridiculous.
On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote: I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.
Lmao wtf does this have to do with anything. The zergs in this thread are killing me, they came into a protoss discussion thread to give us the equivalent people telling zerg "use nydus more" before they were buffed.
On August 09 2011 23:27 Knutzi wrote: i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just warped in a round of units and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose alot before your army can get there.
if terran walls of before your probe scouts him there is no way of knowing what he will do, he could be doing the 1 1 1 or simply just expanding behind it and both these things need two completly diffrent counters, 1 require you to chrono your probes like a madman and the other to cut probes.
there are tons of things like this where protoss just have to take a blind guess and pray its right, if you where right its an even game if not your dead
You know this is exactly how you play zerg
This just in, no race has perfect scouting, especially early game.
If what, Protoss needs some nerfs late game. Any buffs would make that race completely overpowered. Give it time to figure out how to deal with the terran all in, if there's no solution in like 2 months terran will get a nerf.
On August 09 2011 23:48 decaf wrote: If what, Protoss needs some nerfs late game. Any buffs would make that race completely overpowered. Give it time to figure out how to deal with the terran all in, if there's no solution in like 2 months terran will get a nerf.
20 percent winrate? Lol just nerf them. Of course!!
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.
In that case, teching to DT costs:
100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon
and still they do less damage to a mineral line.
that's
975/525 in case you were keeping score.
And Archons can still be used as part of the main army.
On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote: I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.
Lmao wtf does this have to do with anything.
You're complaining protoss doesn't have options, you do. You don't have as great harassment options as the other races, but you do.
When terran scouts some push or all-in coming, they prepare and crush it. When toss scouts a push or all-in coming, they prepare and still get crushed by it.
This is evidence that toss doesn't have the tools or easy availability of those tools that terran is equipped with.
I think people are underestimating the power of Stargate tech. MC was right, Phoenix and Void Rays need to be incorporated more for harassment. They *are* good at harassing.
I'll be honest, I've been having trouble PvT and PvZ, but I really hate the word "imba". One month of tournament losses is insignificant. Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.
Warp Prism harass is a joke though. I don't see that going anywhere. Carriers are good v Terran Mech, but who the heck goes mech v Protoss these days. Half the Protoss race is basically the counter to mech...chargelots, HT, void rays, phoenix, immortals, dark templar...
How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Try since the beta.
It's ok though we'll use cannons against siege tanks that'll fix it ty
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Point to consider is the value of those units elsewhere.
If you go mutas or banes, they're key units in your army as well as being shipped off to harass. The same can be said for medivac drops of pretty much anything T has.
Teching to DTs, on the other hand, doesn't boost your army all that much - you harass/delay with them, maybe make archons, but mainly you're backtracking on that tech to then go to a core army unit. Somewhat similar with Phoenixes (I have now forced hydras, I will make a colossus army!) in the vast majority of cases. This means you have to do damage or you are behind, while a denied T drop just means they try again later, nothing lost.
Mutas aren't key in your army versus Toss at all. Even against Terran only if you're ahead.
Banelings are versus Terran but Baneling drop versus Protoss committs you to a very specific comp which most people think is very unstable and requires a big lead to really work.
Even then Baneling drop costs shit loads of resources for a chance of success assuming the don't move their workers.
On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote: [quote]
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.
In that case, teching to DT costs:
100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon
and still they do less damage to a mineral line.
that's
975/525 in case you were keeping score.
And Archons can still be used as part of the main army.
LOL wow you are ridiculous.
On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote: I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.
Lmao wtf does this have to do with anything.
You're complaining protoss doesn't have options, you do. You don't have as great harassment options as the other races, but you do.
Except I didn't say that at all? lmao wtf. My original post in this thread was about the warpgate nerf leading to greed and extreme vulnerability in the early game.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
1. Zerglings are free. 2. Mutas can be used with the army. 3. Drops can be upgraded at one of the many hatcheries. 4. Zerg units can be split up and require a disproportionate invest on protoss to deal with. people can probably come up with more.
On August 09 2011 23:40 Senx wrote: Are we going to have these threads every time a top player falls down to code A?
P player are frustrated right now. Its not just the player you speak of, but the fact that P in the GSL are doing TERRIBLE right now. In this GSL the only non-mirror P wins have been against a sub-korean-par foreigner and a single game taken off of GanZI. If that had happen to Zergs they would be just as frustrated at this point. Its not the balance of the game that has P players disheartened, its not the theory of the match ups, its the results of this GSL.
A lot of players watch the GSL for inspiration. How often do you see someone say "I'm totally going to try that" during a LR thread. Now imagine watching the first chunk of a GSL and not having a single thing that inspires you. Imagine struggling with certain all-ins and pushes on the ladder, flipping on the GSL hopping for some help only to watch the best players in the world fall again and again to the same pushes. Imagine that the runner up of code A plays your race and loses 3 games in a row to the same all in. Wouldn't that be frustrating to you? Wouldn't that make you lose some faith in your race? That is why protoss players are so vocal at the moment. Balanced or not, its not fun to watch your race get kicked in the teeth time and time again.
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Try since the beta.
I remember losing to it on Kulas. God I hated that map.
On August 09 2011 23:48 decaf wrote: If what, Protoss needs some nerfs late game. Any buffs would make that race completely overpowered. Give it time to figure out how to deal with the terran all in, if there's no solution in like 2 months terran will get a nerf.
Ummm? Discussions of terran all-ins have been around pretty fucking long now. There are still no viable solutions unless you make sick assumptions and take guesses about what is coming early enough.
On August 09 2011 23:43 Arcanefrost wrote: Protoss doesn't have a harass unit like the banshee/hellion/baneling bomb, and they don't have mules or inject larvae to boost economy quickly after taking damage from one of these (cb doesn't quite cut it).
Didn't Zergs say that they didn't have a scouting unit, that Infestors were still not good enough, that their drops were bad and slow, Roaches are completely useless, Hydras are too slow off creep, and many other things I can't recall right now?
And they also kept saying how "they tried everything but it just isn't good enough".
Turns out that only once the progamers really have their backs against the wall vs a recent strategy/trend, they WILL come up with solutions. It's always been like that, I can't see why it would be any different this time.
All of those arguments make sense in words, but really this isn't a game design competition. It's a game problem solving one.
Protoss, I feel you. It was really hard to be a zerg for a while.
I will give you the response I always wanted someone to give me when I zerg QQ'd: "Hang in there, and if things keep going for a while as they are now, I will admit imbalance and call for blizz to buff toss."
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Busting out the ole one base immortal/voidray composition versus an essentially mass marine push, I'm liking it. Cannons, also fairly good versus siege tanks.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.
My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much.
Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it
Firstly MC is still Code S....he's just in up and downs.
Secondly Huk and MC are infinitely superior to White Ra in all match ups. Massive LOL at the idea that winning is not skill. Winning is all that matters ever.
White Ra is a mediocre foreign Toss with gimmicky play who has a lot of fans because he speaks in broken English and is a 'character'. That's fine, but as a player he's nothing special and gets slapped down really fast by solid players and has no major tournament results to his name since people actually learnt how to play the game in the last six months.
In the words of Tyler: "You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler
LOL, All credibility of your argument is thrown out the window with your final quote. You talk about winning being everything, huk, mc > whit-ra... etc etc
Then you quote Tyler, who hasn't won anything recently.
How's that conservative play going for him?
Tylers ability has nothing to do with the accuracy of his quote.
On August 09 2011 23:49 KevinIX wrote: I think people are underestimating the power of Stargate tech. MC was right, Phoenix and Void Rays need to be incorporated more for harassment. They *are* good at harassing.
I'll be honest, I've been having trouble PvT and PvZ, but I really hate the word "imba". One month of tournament losses is insignificant. Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.
Warp Prism harass is a joke though. I don't see that going anywhere. Carriers are good v Terran Mech, but who the heck goes mech v Protoss these days. Half the Protoss race is basically the counter to mech...chargelots, HT, void rays, phoenix, immortals, dark templar...
You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires.
On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote: [quote]
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.
In that case, teching to DT costs:
100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon
and still they do less damage to a mineral line.
that's
975/525 in case you were keeping score.
And Archons can still be used as part of the main army.
LOL wow you are ridiculous.
On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote: I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.
Lmao wtf does this have to do with anything.
You're complaining protoss doesn't have options, you do. You don't have as great harassment options as the other races, but you do.
You must be trolling if you really think the protoss harass options are as viable as T/Z harass options.
It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?
On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote: [quote] LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.
In that case, teching to DT costs:
100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon
and still they do less damage to a mineral line.
that's
975/525 in case you were keeping score.
And Archons can still be used as part of the main army.
LOL wow you are ridiculous.
On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote: I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.
Lmao wtf does this have to do with anything.
You're complaining protoss doesn't have options, you do. You don't have as great harassment options as the other races, but you do.
You must be trolling if you really think the protoss harass options are as viable as T/Z harass options.
You don't have as great harassment options as the other races, but you do.
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote: It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote: It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?
As soon as Terran all-ins don't include both of the following:
a) Siege tanks, that do not give a single fuck
b) Banshees, that will just go past them
There was awhile where this style of all-in was pretty much purely marine/banshee/raven and cannons were great against that, but tanks kind of, y'know, outrange them.
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote: It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?
marauders/tanks...it's a waste of minerals making more zealots is better.
It's honestly pointless to argue about this. Most of the players posting are diamond or lower and the fact is that even most of the foreign pro scene at this point can't touch the Koreans and don't participate in their metagame.
All we can do is look at the results. It's laughable that people are looking at this situation and saying "oh, the Koreans just need to try harder or figure this or that out. It's simple, just use more DTs!" or whatever. The numbers speak for themselves and it'll get patched or not.
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote: It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?
cannons simply get 3shotted by stimmed marauders and cant be repaired/transfused
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote: It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?
When they refund cannons, or make them movable. Don't ask dumb questions if you don't want dumb answers.
On August 09 2011 23:53 Fig wrote: You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires.
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
I like a lot of other protoss in this thread is very curious on this so called protoss 1-1-1
On August 09 2011 23:53 Fig wrote: You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires.
Could you explain lol?
Gravitation beaming workers one by one takes more APM than clicking in the middle of a mineral line with a flock of mutalisks.
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Try since the beta.
It's ok though we'll use cannons against siege tanks that'll fix it ty
I mean as the 1/1/1 raven tank timing not the build into banshee or drops etc.
On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote: I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.
ANSWER TO SENTRY/MUTA Harass.
What's more of an investment, four mutas or four sentries with a warp prism. Four mutas are more expensive and are higher tech and takes longer to get.
they're also a midgame investment strategy. a four sentry drop is an early game strat. at least usually. Mutas are also usually a full commitment strat. try fully committing to sentries sometime.
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote: It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?
I heard siege tanks are preeeetty good against cannons :D
On August 09 2011 23:27 Knutzi wrote: i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just warped in a round of units and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose alot before your army can get there.
if terran walls of before your probe scouts him there is no way of knowing what he will do, he could be doing the 1 1 1 or simply just expanding behind it and both these things need two completly diffrent counters, 1 require you to chrono your probes like a madman and the other to cut probes.
there are tons of things like this where protoss just have to take a blind guess and pray its right, if you where right its an even game if not your dead
You know this is exactly how you play zerg
This just in, no race has perfect scouting, especially early game.
Shocking, I know.
Yeah I know but a few words can be changed in knutzis post and it's a zerg whining look: + Show Spoiler +
i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just MADE DRONES and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose beCAUSE YOU HAVE NO ARMY.
if terran walls of before your DRONE scouts him there is no way of knowing what he will do, he could be doing the 1 1 1 or simply just expanding behind it and both these things need two completly diffrent counters, 1 require you to DRONE like a madman and the other to cut DRONES.
there are tons of things like this where ZERG just have to take a blind guess and pray its right, if you where right its an even game if not your dead
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Try since the beta.
It's ok though we'll use cannons against siege tanks that'll fix it ty
I mean as the 1/1/1 raven tank timing not the build into banshee or drops etc.
I can recall being hammered by marine/banshee/tank on steppes of war last year.
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
plus zealot archon is horrible vs terran drop play. even though blink is easily accessible you need time to build up enough stalkers to deal with dropships.
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Try since the beta.
It's ok though we'll use cannons against siege tanks that'll fix it ty
I mean as the 1/1/1 raven tank timing not the build into banshee or drops etc.
I can recall being hammered by marine/raven/tank on steppes of war last year.
It can sometimes be frustrating to play but imbalances only affect the tip top Korean pros. If you practice enough, you can easily get past your current skill level.
I used to think PvZ was fucking imbalanced until I practiced it many times. Now I love it but I hate my PvT now. That's the way things go. Practice until you become good, then when(if) a buff comes around, be happy ^^
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
plus zealot archon is horrible vs terran drop play. even though blink is easily accessible you need time to build up enough stalkers to deal with dropships.
Yeah, but that's a tradeoff you get for having a much more durable force, not a balance issue - similar to going infestor instead of muta in ZvT. I feel zeal/archon is something you transition into after a colo or blink opening.
Either way, I don't think Ps are complaining about lategame issues much vT.
He moved to MC's base with an army that MC was incapable of engaging at the moment until his tech kicked in, then bunkered it up due to the map design. He executed a build that any other terran could have executed. He didn't outplay MC in any way.
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Try since the beta.
It's ok though we'll use cannons against siege tanks that'll fix it ty
I mean as the 1/1/1 raven tank timing not the build into banshee or drops etc.
I can recall being hammered by marine/raven/tank on steppes of war last year.
Last year were you gold then?
the build is pretty old.. i remember 1/1/1 all in w/ raven tank banshee marine being used in the beta
On August 09 2011 23:59 youngminii wrote: It can sometimes be frustrating to play but imbalances only affect the tip top Korean pros. If you practice enough, you can easily get past your current skill level.
I used to think PvZ was fucking imbalanced until I practiced it many times. Now I love it but I hate my PvT now. That's the way things go. Practice until you become good, then when(if) a buff comes around, be happy ^^
Don't let common sense get in the way of an imba whine thread.
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote: It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?
I heard siege tanks are preeeetty good against cannons :D
It's just a means of buying time. If you have 2 cannons at the front of your nat and a few sentries to prevent marauders getting to them, he has to seige his tanks up further back which means you can get an extra immortal out to try and break it. Not saying this would work, just an idea.
I think the reason why terrans are dominating so much are hellions. Blue flame hellions are ridiculously cost effective, and you need 3x the supply or 2+ cannons/spines to actually not lose anything to them. Especially early game avoiding losses against hellions is almost impossible.
I think hellions should cost more. You can just keep sending and dropping them without worry. Once you get 1-2 shots on the mineral line and the hellion already pays for itself. If you get to an undefended mineral line it is pretty much gg unless you were behind before the drop.
As for why protoss is losing against zerg... I guess the reason is the infestor buff. Nowadays zergs use infestors a lot, which makes winning against zergs really hard. Not sure if it is imbalance or just if protosses need time to adapt.
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Try since the beta.
It's ok though we'll use cannons against siege tanks that'll fix it ty
I mean as the 1/1/1 raven tank timing not the build into banshee or drops etc.
I can recall being hammered by marine/raven/tank on steppes of war last year.
Last year were you gold then?
Top 50 in the Blizzard top 200 listing for my server, thank you for asking.
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote: It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?
Probably when they start to out range a siege tank in the case of 1/1/1.
On topic I am a protoss player, and I am actually quite frustrated. Not frustrated in my own games, I am only diamond and I can see faults for all the times that I lose. But watching pro players get smashed again and again is frustrating, and it seems like it is because they play protoss is just a really crap feeling.
Eventually you cant help that little nagging thought coming into your head when you play a game that you are at a disadvantage because your race is simply not as good. That really makes the whole game a LOT less fun, at least for me. It also contributes to rage when you cant hold an all-in, especially when you cant go anywhere to see how to hold it off.
I was recently watching/helping a friend of mine play protoss on ladder. He is only silver league and he lost to what was supposed to be a 1/1/1 (poorly executed). He asks me how you hold that off ideally and I have to say I dont know, and I dont think that anybody else does either.
I actually think that most of the reasons protoss is this way has already been outlined by other people:
1. Protoss relies too much on a few "lynch pin" units : The sentry, the HT and the colossus. This makes the game really quite fragile, and opens up a lot of timings for other races to exploit.
2. There is no harass unit for protoss.
There is also an argument to be made that this is just a metagame problem. The warp gate nerf was really a gigantic change for the entire race, as almost every strategy and timing revolves around the warp gate timing.
He moved to MC's base with an army that MC was incapable of engaging at the moment until his tech kicked in, then bunkered it up due to the map design. He executed a build that any other terran could have executed. He didn't outplay MC in any way.
MC couldv scouted the push was coming and reacted. you cant just say he couldnt deal with it and be done with it. Yeah, he couldnt deal with it at the time, maybe he got build ordered. Maybe if he wouldv had more gateways he couldv stopped it before the bunkers came up.
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Try since the beta.
It's ok though we'll use cannons against siege tanks that'll fix it ty
I mean as the 1/1/1 raven tank timing not the build into banshee or drops etc.
Since beta. Its been refined some, but like I said I remember trying to defend it on Kulas. Another poser said he played against it on SOW. Its been around forever. Jinro used it at the first MLG Dallas, it wasn't fresh then either. Its an old build that has always been brutal to hold. Now that players have it so much tighter its even worse.
I think the blizzard should not make hesitate decissions about buffing/nerffing. Although if this continues month or two without any real development and win rate for protoss still drops more down, then blizzard definitely should look more.
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
It is but Protoss place their Twilight council in easily droppable positions and then it gets sniped and they lose the game.
You are not contributing anything to this thread at all.
What did you expect this thread to have then?
Terrans and Zergs coming in here and saying you know what, Protoss is being played perfectly recently and you're still losing. I'm going to send a petition to Blizzard to have you guys buffed.
On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote: I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.
ANSWER TO SENTRY/MUTA Harass.
What's more of an investment, four mutas or four sentries with a warp prism. Four mutas are more expensive and are higher tech and takes longer to get.
Protoss vs Zerg was never "one sided". Only people like Idra and his fanboys made it sound like that.
And other thing i see with other races is that protoss isnt funny race,u cant drop with medivacs harass and just beat someone with bad multitasking within 10mins You cant drop banelings nydus and totally rip your opponent with zerg.. its just not like that
funny how people argue about imbalance in a game that has things like auto-surrounds, smart-fire, smart-casts, unlimited control group sizes and a counter-damage type system with only 2 damage types and armros + neutral, but that aside...
lets wait till people start using more hotkeys for their army, know how to spread out their units, put the 'in-game-do-for-you' elements out of their play and compete on a level of their own skill that they bring into the game, like their hand speed and reflexes, because atm "the community" complains about situations where pro-players just sit and macro while doing jack or the possible minimum to control their armies properly and lose games because of this - way to go! Now go finish your middle school, you bunch of homegrown pros
On August 10 2011 00:05 Crying wrote: And other thing i see with other races is that protoss isnt funny race,u cant drop with medivacs harass and just beat someone with bad multitasking within 10mins You cant drop banelings nydus and totally rip your opponent with zerg.. its just not like that
Why can't you?
It's doable in the game if you have the ability to do it.
I'm curious if incorporating phoenix play won't somehow automatically counter this build, obviously the problem is getting the robo timing correctly to deal with cloaked banshees, but i think phoenixes basically help make this build a huge risk and subsequently stoppable, while presenting harassment options as well.
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi.
I laugh at people coming in here saying that protoss is the worst race. Zerg and Protoss is undeniably the races that needs units added to them while Terran is the complete one. This thread is not for balance whining saying that Terran is a better race. Zerg is the race with most metagame shifts and this is because of the early stages of the game release zerg has issues with protoss deathball so they've had to change it up alot until finally infestors became usefull. Protoss recently just started to switch up their play, still doing 200/200 passive forge expand pushes with colossi and stalkers. Change it up, you have harassment units you just won't use them. A warp prism upgraded is the fastest in the game next to the phoenix.
He moved to MC's base with an army that MC was incapable of engaging at the moment until his tech kicked in, then bunkered it up due to the map design. He executed a build that any other terran could have executed. He didn't outplay MC in any way.
MC couldv scouted the push was coming and reacted. you cant just say he couldnt deal with it and be done with it. Yeah, he couldnt deal with it at the time, maybe he got build ordered. Maybe if he wouldv had more gateways he couldv stopped it before the bunkers came up.
He scouted mass marine/banshee/tank off two base with his obs and went colossi as a response, which is completely reasonable and the best way to hold mass marines. If he hadn't gone colossi then what was he going to do, tech to storm instead? There was no way his army could have engaged MVP at any time and his army was positioned mostly behind the building bunkers to deal with MC's largely zealot army (again, the proper response). And he did scout the push, he knew what was at his front door. How can you say MVP outplayed him when it solely came down to the limitations of the races they play that put MC in a horrible position? Do you think MVP would still outplay MC if they switched roles and MC executed the same build?
MC would have won both of those games with immortals. vs MVP, there weren't even enough marines to justify colsi being needed. the bunkers and the tanks were the winners, versus no immortal thats gg. gateway + immortal is on equal footing with 1-1-1.
versus noblesse MC just didnt have enough units, but had a robo that was mostly idle, used only for an obs. i feel like he KNEW an all-in was coming, and that he could hold with his skill and FF. which works versus an inferior player but not versus a player thats almost as good as you.
gateway loses to MMM, i think this is like the first thing anyone should learn about starcraft, medivacs are the point when terran becomes stronger than a gateway toss. immortals and charge are how the protoss equalizes.
One thing that is holding back development toward a solution to the 1-1-1 is people theorycrafting like this. I'm considering creating a thread for others to look at regarding the 1-1-1 with the many professional replays I have of the games. Maybe if someone else studies them, a solution will come.
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
It is but Protoss place their Twilight council in easily droppable positions and then it gets sniped and they lose the game.
You are not contributing anything to this thread at all.
What did you expect this thread to have then?
Terrans and Zergs coming in here and saying you know what, Protoss is being played perfectly recently and you're still losing. I'm going to send a petition to Blizzard to have you guys buffed.
Um, I came in here expecting an intelligent discussion, not you making snide comments like "protoss players just aren't smart enough to not have their twilight council picked off by a drop" and trying to factor in the cost of getting a lair in how much banelings cost. You haven't provided a single intelligent post this entire thread. And you are discussing just random stuff in the first place when the "state of protoss" clearly revolves around early game and you're part of the crew saying "USE MORE WARP PRISM PLAY" as if it was relevant.
We should sent Day[9] alot of PvT 1,1,1 all ins and he can do a really professional review and come with a solution. Since HUK died to GanZi in MLG to a 1,1,1 i heard and MC died to Bomber to 1,1,1 i dont know
On August 10 2011 00:07 mrsaturn wrote: MC would have won both of those games with immortals. vs MVP, there weren't even enough marines to justify colsi being needed. the bunkers and the tanks were the winners, versus no immortal thats gg. gateway + immortal is on equal footing with 1-1-1.
versus noblesse MC just didnt have enough units, but had a robo that was mostly idle, used only for an obs. i feel like he KNEW an all-in was coming, and that he could hold with his skill and FF. which works versus an inferior player but not versus a player thats almost as good as you.
gateway loses to MMM, i think this is like the first thing anyone should learn about starcraft, medivacs are the point when terran becomes stronger than a gateway toss. immortals and charge are how the protoss equalizes.
Why are you spewing bullshit? It was a 1 base all in, how is MC supposed to have chargelots and immortals? Zergs should get broodlords to deal with 4 gates!
The biggest thing protoss's need to learn is what terrans learnt in season 3-4 of GSL.
Timing attacks are on a clock, theres only so long you can do a certain strategy before people learn how to snap it's neck. There are very few protoss players that actually strive for a macro game, and out of those diamonds in the rough only a handful like Youngwa / tyler actually advance current unit compositions.
Personally i think the future of PvP is the carrier, it'll just take about a year till they get there. PvZ i still believe theres alot of room for growth, especially in warp prism/ stargate play. PvT i have absolutely no idea how you can approach it, honestly the problem is the inability to KILL terrans after crushing a push.....
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi.
Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
On August 09 2011 23:59 youngminii wrote: It can sometimes be frustrating to play but imbalances only affect the tip top Korean pros. If you practice enough, you can easily get past your current skill level.
I used to think PvZ was fucking imbalanced until I practiced it many times. Now I love it but I hate my PvT now. That's the way things go. Practice until you become good, then when(if) a buff comes around, be happy ^^
Don't let common sense get in the way of an imba whine thread.
The game should be balanced around the tip top Korean pros not around gold league. They're trying to grow this game as a spectator ESPORT so it's not good enough to just say "this doesn't affect you."
I'm high masters and this doesn't affect me at all as a player but it sure bothers me as an observer and follower of professional play.
The main reason i'm sick of laddering with protoss right now is the lack of harassment. It is practically non existant. The amount you have to invest into harassment practically leads you to an allin situation. If it dosent work you have already lost. I especially hate how the two best forms of harassment, dt and phoneix are both shut down by one building from each race.
I personally think protoss either need a unit similar to a hellion or they need to make the phoneix a beter harassment unit similar to mutalisks. For example giving them a building attack like reapers. Then they would be able to snipe turrets and not be shut down by one turret in trhe mineral line.
On August 09 2011 23:53 Fig wrote: You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires.
Could you explain lol?
Surely. 1 void ray wins vs one queen, but not by much, and Zerg should be able to get out 2 queens per each of your void rays, and will start pumping them once they see the void, making it a losing battle to begin with. So perfect void ray micro, and pulling back at exactly the right moment is essential, because if you lose even a single void the harass instantly falls apart. At the same time you have to worry about keeping the charge, since if you lose it you immediately lose your chance to deal more damage, since your void ray DPS will be much lower than that of a banshee (which costs much less) until it recharges.
But now the phoenixes rush in! Lift off a queen, focus another queen with voids, maybe kill it and another one. But make sure to constantly keep your voids away from spores, since by now, even if the zerg didn't start building them until you got there, spores will be done. And spores destroy toss air, which was alright when it took them so long to burrow, but now they can get up, move, and plop back down in a better spot without taking more than half damage. And see how I didn't even get to the part about killing drones? Try to slip some of that in there too.
All of this needs a ton of attention, much more than a medivac drop, or baneling drop. Since the units involved are so much more costly. And the worst part is that even if you do kill 2 queens, 14 drones, and some spores and overlords, zergs will hold it off and have been building nothing but drones the whole time. That is how much of a joke it is, that zerg doesn't even need hydras to deal with it, and usually ends up with many more drones than when the harass started. I would love to drop down 4 hellions and roast 25 drones in 5 seconds, and lose the hellions, I wouldn't even mind losing the dropship.
On August 10 2011 00:08 GrimmJ wrote: I feel as though if the Robotic Bay had an upgrade for Immortal speed (just like observer and warp prisim), Protoss would have a decent harrass unit.
Immortals only do 20 damage vs light, workers have 45 hp. 3 shotting a worker does not make for a good harass unit. Sure you can snipe buildings but that is a less effective form of econ harass than just killing workers.
Its 1 year into the game and HOTS is due in around 6 months. Too late to adjust balance.
If I were a Protoss player unhappy with his race then switch to another race its that simple
Most of the issues affect only the Top 20 players in the world, and to be honest they are all Korean. This is a non issue to EU and NA, so posts like this are counter productive and tbh should be deleted as they serve no purpose
I play protoss and it seems fine to me. Players take a third base too late PvZ and I think that's the biggest problem in their play. Maybe it's really that punishable but I don't have a problem defending a 3rd at the 11-12 minute mark while many others protoss expands at 14 or beyond.
That's just from watching Huk's stream now and how he plays. Overall I do feel the higher the level gets the more terran can do to get ahead though, and I do feel like a higher level terran is probably favoured, I think there it all comes down to the terran being able to put pressure on everywhere at once and thereby preventing a 3rd base for a while. At just regular high master level it is not a problem however.
As a protoss I'm looking for a Terran nerf rather than a buff. PvZ isn't a huge issue. It's the sheer number of terrans tearing up the pro-scene. There's a reason TvT is such a great mirror with so many options. Banshees, hellions and mmm are all such cost-effective units with great harrass potential. I have no idea how Terran has escaped significant nerfs for this long considering their long-term success.
On August 10 2011 00:13 FiWiFaKi wrote: I play protoss and it seems fine to me.
Same -.- However the game shouldn't be balanced around non-pro's. Spectators don't want to see terrans abusing imbalance, leading to endless majority Terran GSL's which reflect the state of the Korean GM Ladder.
MC goofed the second game vs Noblesse. MC scouted it as early as it was possible to scout it. What happened was combination of 2 major things. Stalkers got caught on high ground and he made the mistake of warping in next round of stalkers on high ground as well when Noblesse was outside his natural. That combined with Noblesse absorbing stalker dmg using the factory to get into a better position lead to MC losing that game.
MC would have been ok if he picked someone weak instead of MVP and get himself a win but unfortunately bad day for him after making a risky choice. MVP pulling off that contain has a lot to do with the map itself being iffy as well. Although I wonder why MC didn't choose to engage in the open ground with 1 coll + all those zealots. He scouted MVP moving out immeadiately with his obs. Bunkers + tank contain usually = gg in almost any MU no?
I'm considering race changing personally, not because P is UP but I really don't like how with each metagame shift either P does amazing or terrible. I think the same goes for Z. T just seem to be much more stable and adapts well to metagame shifts. Feels like the race that doesn't "counter" anything in particular and isn't "countered" by anyhting in particular.
On August 09 2011 23:59 youngminii wrote: It can sometimes be frustrating to play but imbalances only affect the tip top Korean pros. If you practice enough, you can easily get past your current skill level.
I used to think PvZ was fucking imbalanced until I practiced it many times. Now I love it but I hate my PvT now. That's the way things go. Practice until you become good, then when(if) a buff comes around, be happy ^^
Don't let common sense get in the way of an imba whine thread.
The game should be balanced around the tip top Korean pros not around gold league. They're trying to grow this game as a spectator ESPORT so it's not good enough to just say "this doesn't affect you."
I'm high masters and this doesn't affect me at all as a player but it sure bothers me as an observer and follower of professional play.
Then wait until the Korean progamers solve it.
Nobody here is a tip top Korean progamer, so it's pointless for people who don't know enough about the game to discuss balance related topics anyway.
Imbalanced: - Early game 10-20 mins in - On certain maps like Xel'naga, Searing, Gultch..... - Early economy (aka you can stay on par with drone count WHILE making combat units thx to chrono)
Under-powered: - After the 20mins marks If I was able to deny your 3rd while taking my 4th - If I can get to T3 with some good incomes - If I was able to get away with a greedy build
So to be honest I totaly agree that protoss needs some help, but in a way to get this help they will have to trade something cause they're super strong early game, at least it looks like it in my games!
And on a side note, I know that Dustin said something about an harassing unit... but I taught that the DT was doing a fine job with this role no? how about 2-3 dts +3wep attacking my expand while I defend the main army at my main?? Yah they destroys a spore in about 2 sec and my hatch in 5!!
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi.
Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
yeah zealot/archon is very strong in late game because of the amount of gateways you can build and the mobility that comes with warping anywhere as opposed to colossus centric builds but it is quite fragile to harass in early game. I think the terran response to it is the 1-1-1 all in since it has a huge weakness vs air.
MC only debuted this build like a month ago at NASL finals and koreans terrans have already tagged teamed the shit out of it >.<
warp prisms are garbage. stop suggesting them. what you're really suggesting is that toss mimic the drop style of terran and zerg. let's think about this for a sec. whose drop is more effective? we should all be able to agree that terran is the best at dropping. banelings drops scale well and are useful as both harass and as components of an army. what about toss drops? sometimes you can catch an opponent off guard with moving HTs around. second, the active ability on the warp prism is fucking garbage.
it looks really impossible to deal with the 1-1-1 timing attack right now. I suppose thats the only thing protosses are whining about now? But there was a time when other things looked impossible to deal with for other races as well. They adapted and dealed with it, and i believe one of the pros will finally figure out how to. If only there were more good protosses players around, who can advance the metagame. Look at slayers, so many good terrans putting their heads together, which is why the bfh marine elevator came out.
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi.
Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
Well, PvT lategame is pretty interesting because unit composition and control matters a lot. Once you trade Colossi against the ground army + medivacs (or medivac energy) you can of course reinforce with Zealot/Stalker/HT/Archon again, and once Terran gets to a ball again or lost all his vikings you can restart colossus production. I personally think that Protoss has to use this mechanics to end games against Terran on 3-4 bases, because a) 200/200 T ball generally beats 200/200 P ball due to the fact that he needs less scvs, and Zealots are comparatively bad in high numbers and b) defending and harassing far away bases is a lot easier for T than for P.
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi.
Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
yeah zealot/archon is very strong in late game because of the amount of gateways you can build and the mobility that comes with warping anywhere as opposed to colossus centric builds but it is quite fragile to harass in early game. I think the terran response to it is the 1-1-1 all in since it has a huge weakness vs air.
MC only debuted this build like a month ago at NASL finals and koreans terrans have already tagged teamed the shit out of it >.<
Yeah MC goes into it off blink stalkers/dts to delay/harass slightly, and you see some other players going colo first before transitioning. Before you have the economy and infrastructure to really churn out the numbers (and get the upgrades/tech), it's definitely punishable, as Taeja so cleanly showed vs Tails.
All a different topic, anyway, but I'm still a fan of the composition :p
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi.
Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
Well, PvT lategame is pretty interesting because unit composition and control matters a lot. Once you trade Colossi against the ground army + medivacs (or medivac energy) you can of course reinforce with Zealot/Stalker/HT/Archon again, and once Terran gets to a ball again or lost all his vikings you can restart colossus production. I personally think that Protoss has to use this mechanics to end games against Terran on 3-4 bases, because a) 200/200 T ball generally beats 200/200 P ball due to the fact that he needs less scvs, and Zealots are comparatively bad in high numbers and b) defending and harassing far away bases is a lot easier for T than for P.
1 well placed EMP is also capable of singlehandedly winning the game. 1 well placed storm is not.
The bigger issue for "Just build cannons" is that Cannons are fundamentally different than Spine Crawlers and Bunkers.
Spine Crawlers and Bunkers only require a Pool/Rax to be built which you will have anyway.
Cannons require Forge which other than allowing Cannons are pretty bad. When you see a 4 gate incoming do you think about getting +1 attack? Imagine trying to defend rushes if you needed an Evolution Chamber to build a spine crawler or an Engineering Bay to build a Bunker.
If cannons were changed such that you only needed a Gateway to build one, but they could neither detect nor shoot at air till you built a Forge then that right there would fix Toss's issue, but it would be a massive buff and make Cannon rushes just ridiculous so cannot be done without other changes.
IMHO, Protoss's mechanics make it a pain to balance. First, static defense is annoying as mentioned above. Second, Warp gives you 2 rounds of units back to back right as you gain the ability to attack across the map. The result is that you must balance Protoss so they can survive right before Warp finishes, but then a few seconds, and 2 rounds of units later when they are attacking across the map they cannot be OP. It is very difficult to balance that.
IMHO, Gateways should be changed such that they can warp in units within range of pylons that are near a nexus. This means you get your first Zealot in your base only a few seconds after your gateway finishes. This would give Toss a buf in the early game when defending from cheese, while simultaneously getting rid of Proxy gating. This would heavily nerf 6 pool and Cannon rush since the first Zealot pops 30 seconds earlier and also nerf the Proxy Gating totally since the Gateway's location is irrelevant to where the Zealot warps in. Furthermore, since Warp would not longer be needed for defensive purposes, Hallucination first builds could become viable.
Next, I would say Cannons only need a Gateway instead of a Forge, but until Forge is made Cannons can again only be warped in near pylons near a nexus (So Toss would still have to Forge first to cannon in their natural) Also Cannons would be unable to shoot at air or detect till Forge is built. Again this massively helps defend against Cheese or early one base all ins since you can just start warping cannons in at your ramp when you see it coming. This provides no help to cannon rushing since Toss would likely just go Forge first and do as they do now rather than trying to get a Proxy Nexus up with a Proxy Pylon next to it.
Summary: #1: Gateways can warp in units next to pylons near a nexus. #2: Gateway allows construction of Cannon next to pylons near a Nexus. #3: Cannons do not gain detection or ability to shoot air until completion of a Forge.
It seems to me the most recent protoss wins against terran in the GSL and GSTL after last Code A finals has been early all-ins and timings. What with HongUn in the GSTL and Tassadar in the Code A.
I mentioned this in the other thread, but I fear that this might be the best response and the games will get that short and predictable...
I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0 WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2 Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0 Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0 Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3 Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
That's kind of the point of the thread, people are wondering what the answer is, because GSL players sure haven't found it.
Then this thread serves no purpose, if the GSL players haven't found it what makes you guys, who don't earn a living off winning, any more likely to find it?
On August 10 2011 00:08 fritos wrote: State of Protoss is not the problem. State of Terran seems to be causing all the problems....
Care to elaborate?
From the very beginning both Protoss and Zerg had alot of ups and downs(I understand that the game is still evolving and developing).. but Terran pretty much only had ups (60+% win rate at one point over other race).
These charts are not about just the state of Protoss but more about the state of other race vs state of Terran. One race should not have this dominance consistently over the others for this long.
On August 10 2011 00:09 Crying wrote: We should sent Day[9] alot of PvT 1,1,1 all ins and he can do a really professional review and come with a solution. Since HUK died to GanZi in MLG to a 1,1,1 i heard and MC died to Bomber to 1,1,1 i dont know
Why would a master level commentator understand Protoss better than MC?
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
On August 10 2011 00:05 Crying wrote: And other thing i see with other races is that protoss isnt funny race,u cant drop with medivacs harass and just beat someone with bad multitasking within 10mins You cant drop banelings nydus and totally rip your opponent with zerg.. its just not like that
I hear there is this thing called 4gating...
The metagame is shifting and protosses haven't yet fully discovered what they have to change to win in it. Protoss is the most mobile race having the ability to spawn units anywhere on the map and having the two fastest air units in the game which no one is really using right now. If you look at sage for example in his semi-recent gstl games he made use of new strategies to completely destroy his opponents resulting in an all kill. There is still plenty of room for protoss players to shift their playstyle to fit the ever developing metagame. You should also consider the depth of skilled players distributed among the races. I have a hard time naming 5 protoss players that I would say are top notch players, while on the other hand if you look at terran they have mvp, mma, optimus, sc, boxer, nada.
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
That's kind of the point of the thread, people are wondering what the answer is, because GSL players sure haven't found it.
Then this thread serves no purpose, if the GSL players haven't found it what makes you guys, who don't earn a living off winning, any more likely to find it?
jesus christ then do us all a favor and stop posting.
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi.
Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
Well, PvT lategame is pretty interesting because unit composition and control matters a lot. Once you trade Colossi against the ground army + medivacs (or medivac energy) you can of course reinforce with Zealot/Stalker/HT/Archon again, and once Terran gets to a ball again or lost all his vikings you can restart colossus production. I personally think that Protoss has to use this mechanics to end games against Terran on 3-4 bases, because a) 200/200 T ball generally beats 200/200 P ball due to the fact that he needs less scvs, and Zealots are comparatively bad in high numbers and b) defending and harassing far away bases is a lot easier for T than for P.
A protoss should always look to drag out a game pvt because it's very rare that lategame your army gets completely crushed (unless you get caught without an obs vs cloaked ghosts of something stupid like that). You'll either win the battle handily and then you can either push in with instant reinforcements or sit around and get even more gateways (20-30), get more bases, and more robos. Even if you lose your army, good protosses like hasu keep 1-2 templar back at home in case that happens and in combination with warpin of zealots, you can usually hold the counter. Ideally, in PvT, a protoss never wants to attack because with the current metagame, a terran shouldn't beat a protoss with a good economy, tons of gateways, max upgrades, and 3-4 robos producing.
On August 10 2011 00:08 fritos wrote: State of Protoss is not the problem. State of Terran seems to be causing all the problems....
Care to elaborate?
These charts are not about just the state of Protoss but more about the state of other race vs state of Terran. One race should not have this dominance consistently over the others for this long.
This. The thread should be relabeled 'State of the Terran'
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
That's kind of the point of the thread, people are wondering what the answer is, because GSL players sure haven't found it.
This isn't a thread about people wondering what the answer is, because that would belong in a strategy section, and at least for 1/1/1 there already are such threads.
This is a thread about people stating the only answer is "this is imbalanced" (or if you want a more sophisticated variant: "the game design is bad" or "we're incomplete") and that all other answers are bad.
Protoss doesn't need any buffs nor does terran need a nerf. Protoss needs to start fucking doing new stuff the only new thing they've done is zealot/archon but terran and zerg has experimented. Warp Prism is so underused it's so fast it's weird. Sure it's fragile but it's speed takes that, upgraded warp prism is FAST.
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi.
Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
Well, PvT lategame is pretty interesting because unit composition and control matters a lot. Once you trade Colossi against the ground army + medivacs (or medivac energy) you can of course reinforce with Zealot/Stalker/HT/Archon again, and once Terran gets to a ball again or lost all his vikings you can restart colossus production. I personally think that Protoss has to use this mechanics to end games against Terran on 3-4 bases, because a) 200/200 T ball generally beats 200/200 P ball due to the fact that he needs less scvs, and Zealots are comparatively bad in high numbers and b) defending and harassing far away bases is a lot easier for T than for P.
1 well placed EMP is also capable of singlehandedly winning the game. 1 well placed storm is not.
Relying on Storms is a mistake imo, and trying to play too passively in most situations as well. But it is true that Ghosts also punish passive play from P, because once he has enough Ghosts with enough energy Protoss units basically don't have shields or energy anymore. Being maxed also means you have no drop defence anymore, which is why I think that Protoss should try to grasp every timing they have in PvT midgame. I cringe every time I see a pro P lose or nearly lose lategame PvT after an seizable advantage because he didn't want to end the game.
On August 10 2011 00:14 Konsume wrote: So to be honest I totaly agree that protoss needs some help, but in a way to get this help they will have to trade something cause they're super strong early game, at least it looks like it in my games!
That may be more a reflection of your playstyle, particularly if you favour heavy macro. The consensus seems to be that Protoss are stronger late game than early game, and I would venture to suggest that it is specifically early-mid game defence where Protoss is especially weak.
And on a side note, I know that Dustin said something about an harassing unit... but I taught that the DT was doing a fine job with this role no? how about 2-3 dts +3wep attacking my expand while I defend the main army at my main?? Yah they destroys a spore in about 2 sec and my hatch in 5!!
It's true that protoss does indeed have harass units available. Generally the problem is that protoss players cannot afford to use the various harasss units much, since the cost in resources, tech and production time is high and most do not contribute much to general army strength.
On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote: I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0 WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2 Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0 Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0 Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3 Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
Then why do Losira and Nestea have 90% win ratios versus Protoss despite rarely using infestors?
It's only bad EU pro's abusing infestors. Koreans mostly still avoid them.
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
^ No 1 storm isn't but several feedbacks are.
Because the suggestions are just as bad as people telling zerg to use nydus more back when they were in a rut. Use warp prism more? Use carriers? I don't even know what half of the people coming into this thread trying to give advice are talking about. There is no "state of protoss metagame" to change with warp prisms, since the warpgate nerf we have no ability to put on pressure so zerg drones freely and now takes an extremely fast third compared to when they built their third during the time they struggled. All gateway timings have been figured out so it extends into the late game and largely ends in the mid-game because zerg has such a massive macro advantage. Also due to the warpgate nerf the 1-1-1 all-in has made a comeback and been refined because four gate is now holdable (and an instant loss) due to coming 20 seconds later. The warpgate nerf also makes the expansion timing later than it could safely be and you have almost one less round of warpins to combat any early terran all-in, and makes 3gate sentry expand hard versus roach/ling allin.
The struggle of protoss nowadays is almost solely based on the extremely weak early game. PvP is a complete highlight of it, where if you lose one stalker you have now died to your opponent's one base all-in because every unit is fragile in the beginning and hard to reproduce. Protoss is forced into a defensive posture in the early game which allows either for extreme greed or an all-in that still exploits unalterable timings. There really isn't even much to discuss, Blizzard will eventually make some sort of change, protoss will just lose, or Heart of the Swarm will come out and make changes to the overall rigid protoss game design.
The best foreign protoss, Naniwa, and another great one, Sase, are in Code A now and playing soon. Those two basically represent the two best protoss not currently in Korea. So almost every good protoss in the world has gone to Korea, and so far none of them are doing well against the competition there. Naniwa and Sase are unlikely to ever win the GSL but we'll see I suppose.
I think the most glaring thing with the 1-1-1 is that Terrans are hardly executing their build to perfection. I've seen supply blocks, forgetting siege mode (lol what?), not making enough rax (some think you should only have 1 with reactor), some micro badly, some forget their Raven exists, and yet it is winning most of their games still. One of the many reasons why people have no idea how to defeat 1-1-1 atm is because when they do defeat it, they have no idea whether it was done correctly. This leads to people learning the incorrect response which happened to work when the Terran screwed up.
I've yet to see a definitive build of the 1-1-1 that is remotely refined (Bomber's variant seems quite refined though). Most Terrans are literally getting their composition of marine tank banshee and sending it to the face and it works.
Imbalanced: - Early game 10-20 mins in - On certain maps like Xel'naga, Searing, Gultch..... - Early economy (aka you can stay on par with drone count WHILE making combat units thx to chrono)
Under-powered: - After the 20mins marks If I was able to deny your 3rd while taking my 4th - If I can get to T3 with some good incomes - If I was able to get away with a greedy build
Really..? -.-
Did you watch the games when Zerg can max out on 200 food when Protoss gets 130? I think it's just a matter of knowing when to drone, something that top pros all know how to do.
On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote: I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0 WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2 Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0 Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0 Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3 Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
All these nerf are done like Months ago, It is only recently where Terran's are kind of abusing 1.1.1. I say give it some time, toss will find some ideas.
On August 10 2011 00:05 Crying wrote: And other thing i see with other races is that protoss isnt funny race,u cant drop with medivacs harass and just beat someone with bad multitasking within 10mins You cant drop banelings nydus and totally rip your opponent with zerg.. its just not like that
I hear there is this thing called 4gating...
The metagame is shifting and protosses haven't yet fully discovered what they have to change to win in it. Protoss is the most mobile race having the ability to spawn units anywhere on the map and having the two fastest air units in the game which no one is really using right now. If you look at sage for example in his semi-recent gstl games he made use of new strategies to completely destroy his opponents resulting in an all kill. There is still plenty of room for protoss players to shift their playstyle to fit the ever developing metagame. You should also consider the depth of skilled players distributed among the races. I have a hard time naming 5 protoss players that I would say are top notch players, while on the other hand if you look at terran they have mvp, mma, optimus, sc, boxer, nada.
Sometimes the "the race isn't fully discovered" gets old.
Just remember there is a possibility that you can't name top notch protoss players is because even if they practice just as hard they can't reach that S class point.
But truthfully, the tournament winners have been switching like crazy, Blizzcon EU thing Ret one, protoss second. If a race is able to get second in a tournament it's not imbalanced, I think if there are any issues it can be worked out with more protoss favourable maps.
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us.
I think that both protoss and zerg have similar problems when it comes to nerfing/buffing when compared to terran. I feel that terran is easier to nerf/buff because good terran play currently relies on more factors then protoss of zerg play. To put it in the words of Dustin Browder "Terran is currently the most complete race".
IMO the biggest thing protoss depends on until now is brute force and how to get to that point of brute force in order to crush the opponent. Terran on the other hand, can win in different manners, because they can rely more on harassing/raiding as well as having some very nifty brute force timing pushes.
Balancing protoss for that matter becomes hard, because if you buff certain units too much protoss can go death ball mode to easy and when you nerf units too much they become weak and depend more on their opponent screwing up rather then outplaying someone.
The same goes for zerg I feel atm. Zerg wasn't doing too well until one unit got slightly buffed (infestor) and suddenly they started kicking terran and protoss ass like it was nobodys business. Take away that buff and zerg suddenly becomes that frail race again.
I think that hoping for better balance in Wings of Liberty is kinda foolhardy. The best we can hope for is that Blizzard has learned from the past year and will add some units for zerg and toss that make the race more complete, as to compete with terran better.
Plz keep in mind btw that this is not meant as a balance complain and whatever and that it's just my humble opinion based on watching a lot of pro play and playing myself. (I'm a toss player btw.)
The true problem is the the reasoning behind the balance nerfs for toss. For example:
Flux vanes removed - too good in team games Zealot build time nerf- too many silver players losing to 2gate
When you make changes to the entire race, to make a matchup easier for low level and casual players, it has repercussions at the higher levels of play, and those repercussions are magnified when pros play each other. Blizzard is sacrificing GSL race diversity for silver players, which, while probably good for business, is bad for esports.
On August 10 2011 00:05 Crying wrote: And other thing i see with other races is that protoss isnt funny race,u cant drop with medivacs harass and just beat someone with bad multitasking within 10mins You cant drop banelings nydus and totally rip your opponent with zerg.. its just not like that
I hear there is this thing called 4gating...
The metagame is shifting and protosses haven't yet fully discovered what they have to change to win in it. Protoss is the most mobile race having the ability to spawn units anywhere on the map and having the two fastest air units in the game which no one is really using right now. If you look at sage for example in his semi-recent gstl games he made use of new strategies to completely destroy his opponents resulting in an all kill. There is still plenty of room for protoss players to shift their playstyle to fit the ever developing metagame. You should also consider the depth of skilled players distributed among the races. I have a hard time naming 5 protoss players that I would say are top notch players, while on the other hand if you look at terran they have mvp, mma, optimus, sc, boxer, nada.
1) 4gate is an all-in and its become so common that just about every player knows how to defend it. 2) Protoss is not the most mobile race (youre retarded if you think so). sure we can warp in anywhere but thats countered by shitty units we can warp in that does jack shit by themselves (zealots/stalkers), expensive (dts, hts), that all end up being a glorified way of donating to the other player. 3) People seriously need to stop thinking warp prisms being used more will balance the game. I agree it is underused but thats because a) it takes up robo time b) useless in army therefore it represents a diverging tech c) we have such shitty units to harass with 4) gee i guess all the top notch players picked terran? i guess thats just a coincidence? or maybe they see that terran is infinitely more rewarding for good mechanics and multitasking.
On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote: I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0 WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2 Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0 Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0 Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3 Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
All these nerf are done like Months ago, It is only recently where Terran's are kind of abusing 1.1.1. I say give it some time, toss will find some ideas.
1. The 1-1-1 all-in builds are absolutely not new, they've been around for a long time. 2. The statistics chart goes all the way back to the launch of the game which is why I looked at all patches since launch.
I don't think Protoss is weak as a race, but early-mid 1/1/1 terran push is kinda too strong. Hope we will find solution soon. Other than that protoss still dominates late game.
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us.
Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss.
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote: I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.
I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
It's actually better in midgame and small numbers, once Terran has lots of Ghosts and an appropiate MMM ball you need to switch to Colossi.
Fair enough. I say lategame because that's more of the period where you can macro out absurd amounts of those units rather than having 1-2 archons.
Well, PvT lategame is pretty interesting because unit composition and control matters a lot. Once you trade Colossi against the ground army + medivacs (or medivac energy) you can of course reinforce with Zealot/Stalker/HT/Archon again, and once Terran gets to a ball again or lost all his vikings you can restart colossus production. I personally think that Protoss has to use this mechanics to end games against Terran on 3-4 bases, because a) 200/200 T ball generally beats 200/200 P ball due to the fact that he needs less scvs, and Zealots are comparatively bad in high numbers and b) defending and harassing far away bases is a lot easier for T than for P.
A protoss should always look to drag out a game pvt because it's very rare that lategame your army gets completely crushed (unless you get caught without an obs vs cloaked ghosts of something stupid like that). You'll either win the battle handily and then you can either push in with instant reinforcements or sit around and get even more gateways (20-30), get more bases, and more robos. Even if you lose your army, good protosses like hasu keep 1-2 templar back at home in case that happens and in combination with warpin of zealots, you can usually hold the counter. Ideally, in PvT, a protoss never wants to attack because with the current metagame, a terran shouldn't beat a protoss with a good economy, tons of gateways, max upgrades, and 3-4 robos producing.
I know that it is mainly my opinion, but even MC said that Terran has the advantage on big maps like Tal'Darim after 20 or 25 minutes. This, and various observations from professional PvTs in a time before 1-1-1 killed everything, led me to that belief. I might be wrong, but it works in my own games. As of now it doesn't matter though, PvTs don't really reach mid/late game anymore.
On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote: I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0 WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2 Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0 Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0 Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3 Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
Then why do Losira and Nestea have 90% win ratios versus Protoss despite rarely using infestors?
It's only bad EU pro's abusing infestors. Koreans mostly still avoid them.
I'm looking at overall trends, not individual players. There are always exceptions, but my point remains. On top of that I've Losira and Nestea use infestors in some PvZ's and they certainly use them in TvZ.
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote: How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
NO! cannons are good against zerg, Vs terran they are just a Glass of water. unless u make like 6cannons in a row, which is a bad investment.
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us.
Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss.
Cool. So a full, what, 1.75 years after launch Protoss will finally be where it should be? Nice. So until HotS, we get to watch Tosses losing over and over. Yeah, that makes sense. Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance) that in HotS you'd get some good units! Oh yay, HotS?! I only have to wait a year for my race to be usable? Why thank you Blizzard, you are too kind.
On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote: I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0 WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2 Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0 Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0 Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3 Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
There is some truth in your narrative but it is woefully simplistic. None of those nerfs would really have helped Protosses to hold the marine/tank/banshee all-in that has been winning so many TvPs in Korea - so the points are somewhat unrelated. You also tend to ignore the fact that void rays got a huge buff by making them do additional damage to massive units. You can point to actual games where Zergs actually lost because of that buff - for example, Fruit Dealer vs Ace game 3 on Metalopolis in the Super Tournament - whereas the recent trend of Protoss problems is not related to any of those. Do you suggest that Protoss players would build void rays to defend the siege tank marine banshee all-ins when there are 15 or 20 marines around and a starport to make vikings?
As for the note about the infestor, there is obviously truth to it but it also misses some key moments in the evolution of Zerg player. First, the strength of the brood/infestor/corruptor composition was starting to be discovered and exploited to great effect in ZvT prior to the infestor buff - you can see this in 12 weeks with the pros with Darkforce. Around the same time there is a good deal of experimenting going on with alternative styles of ZvP involving banelings, mass zerglings, hive tech and even infestors - all before the infestor buff. As these new approaches came to be refined by pros like Morrow in the West and Coca and Losira in Korea, the match-up changed. Of course, the infestor buff played a role in all of that as well, but changes were happening prior to and concomitant with the infestor change. It was not so drastic that immediately Zerg became overpowered or won every game.
On August 09 2011 23:59 youngminii wrote: It can sometimes be frustrating to play but imbalances only affect the tip top Korean pros. If you practice enough, you can easily get past your current skill level.
I used to think PvZ was fucking imbalanced until I practiced it many times. Now I love it but I hate my PvT now. That's the way things go. Practice until you become good, then when(if) a buff comes around, be happy ^^
Don't let common sense get in the way of an imba whine thread.
The game should be balanced around the tip top Korean pros not around gold league. They're trying to grow this game as a spectator ESPORT so it's not good enough to just say "this doesn't affect you."
I'm high masters and this doesn't affect me at all as a player but it sure bothers me as an observer and follower of professional play.
Then wait until the Korean progamers solve it.
Nobody here is a tip top Korean progamer, so it's pointless for people who don't know enough about the game to discuss balance related topics anyway.
It's clearly idiotic for us to try to solve this problem in the place of the Koreans, on that we agree. By your logic, however, there is no possibility that this won't be solved at some point. Your default stance is that the game is balanced.
My default stance is that I don't know whether or not it's balanced, so all I can do is look at the evidence. The fact is that we will be waiting on a patch that may or may not come, but both popular positions in this thread; "it's imbalanced" or "lol metagame" are both stupid.
If you think it's imbalanced wait for the patch, if you don't then you can be shocked and dismayed if or when there is a patch... and the cycle continues.
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us.
Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss.
Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance)
Former Zerg and current Protoss problems are the same in nature - as is the forum behavior in regards to "balance".
Protoss players are losing to early game terran all-ins in the GSL, yet this thread has become a generic protoss whine thread. Suddenly protoss is terrible at everything.
On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote: I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0 WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2 Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0 Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0 Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3 Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
Then why do Losira and Nestea have 90% win ratios versus Protoss despite rarely using infestors?
It's only bad EU pro's abusing infestors. Koreans mostly still avoid them.
Because they can expand freely w/o risk and then zerg macro mechanics takes over and it does not matter what units they have. Protoss now takes a FE in response but they just take a third and protoss cant at that point in the game.
They are awesome players too but when protoss CAN NOT deny it spells big big troubles. Terran still can pressure fortunately but even that matchup is rather imba even is w/l is 50/50. Terran strong early until zerg ball takes over.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.
In that case, teching to DT costs:
100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon
On August 09 2011 23:40 Senx wrote: Are we going to have these threads every time a top player falls down to code A?
I just think its a bit silly for all the grandmasters in this thread to have figured out protoss 100% and concluded that the race is indeed the weakest, and that these statistics prove it.
Terran, protoss and zergs have all dominated at different points of SC2 history, Its a never ending cycle and I dont think its right to just jump the gun so fast.
I believe Korean protoss are something like a 20% winrate versus Korean terran in the GSL right now.
Yo dawg, add another 100 for a pylon, you can't have an Artosis pylon / show all your tech you know!
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us.
Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss.
Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance)
Former Zerg and current Protoss problems are the same in nature - as is the forum behavior in regards to "balance".
I would bet every cent I own that you can't name a Protoss comp that would solve our problems.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
He does that special stuff more against people he completely outclasses like on his stream. Watch him dropping drewbie with a warp prism full of archons and then see it killed with like 1 scv killed for instance.
On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote: I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0 WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2 Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0 Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0 Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3 Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
There is some truth in your narrative but it is woefully simplistic. None of those nerfs would really have helped Protosses to hold the marine/tank/banshee all-in that has been winning so many TvPs in Korea - so the points are somewhat unrelated. You also tend to ignore the fact that void rays got a huge buff by making them do additional damage to massive units. You can point to actual games where Zergs actually lost because of that buff - for example, Fruit Dealer vs Ace game 3 on Metalopolis in the Super Tournament - whereas the recent trend of Protoss problems is not related to any of those. Do you suggest that Protoss players would build void rays to defend the siege tank marine banshee all-ins when there are 15 or 20 marines around and a starport to make vikings?
As for the note about the infestor, there is obviously truth to it but it also misses some key moments in the evolution of Zerg player. First, the strength of the brood/infestor/corruptor composition was starting to be discovered and exploited to great effect in ZvT prior to the infestor buff - you can see this in 12 weeks with the pros with Darkforce. Around the same time there is a good deal of experimenting going on with alternative styles of ZvP involving banelings, mass zerglings, hive tech and even infestors - all before the infestor buff. As these new approaches came to be refined by pros like Morrow in the West and Coca and Losira in Korea, the match-up changed. Of course, the infestor buff played a role in all of that as well, but changes were happening prior to and concomitant with the infestor change. It was not so drastic that immediately Zerg became overpowered or won every game.
I would absolutely say that with good micro (pre charging your Void Rays) they could have been viable vs 1-1-1. Charged void rays used to have insane DPS.
Protoss lategame, at least at GSL levels of play, isn't that much of an issue, at least not to the point as to warrant a discussion. The problem is there is no way for P to keep up with T / Z in the early game.
In PvT, if you expand before T does, you basically die, your openings are pretty much as fragile as it is in PvP. You can straight up lose to a 1 rax marauder expand if you go for a 1gate FE, for god's sake. Terran has a variety of openers they can use, from passive like hiding a CC in base whilst being walled off, to semi aggressive like 1rax reaper or 1rax marauder, fast ghost push, or 2rax, or 111, or banshee play, all of which have the potential to outright kill a Protoss if not read absolutely perfectly with VERY limited information, and don't even put the T behind at all IF they are read perfectly. On some maps you can get away with a faster expansion, but even then it's a gamble as to whether you might get busted by a quick drop play, a cloak banshee, or something similar - all the while T ALWAYS has the option to either plant a safe CC behind his ramp / bunkers, or pull workers and turn light pressure into a very hard all-in or contain.
Because of that, P typically has to play from behind. Chronoboost lets you catch up a bit on probes, but that means your tech ends up lagging, then mid-game comes around where you're a sitting duck for hellion / mmm harass and again, if the Terran isn't being awful, at best you're trading even by shutting down the drops, at worst you lose straight up to 8 marauders sniping a nexus or a twilight council in 3 seconds. Warp prism play isn't really viable as you are already behind on econ and your units take longer to construct, so any drop you do lose sets you back much further than it sets the Terran back - nvm that you have to construct a specialist unit for that, whereas Terran has every tool needed to both perform AND counter a drop as part of their standard army (medivacs, marauder/marine, vikings, most of the time a few turrets as well).
Once the econ evens out, and if the P didn't suffer too much from mid-game harass, it's usually very even; there's still the debate of EMP vs feedback / storm etcetc, but really... how often do we see that kind of late game play? Last series between real top pros I remember was PuMa vs MC (and boy, was that series awesome?), but 99% of the time PvT boils down to all-ins and sometimes 2-base timings, so discussing whether or not archon / carrier / whatever is viable and balanced is pretty hard.
In PvZ, P is a little less fragile than vs Terran, having the ability to expand pretty safely and efficiently... but there are absolutely no options to punish a Zerg doubling your econ once you do expand. MC's fast VR build worked well the first time he used it, but since it's literally the only strat you CAN do from behind an FE, it's been dissected and is easily countered by correct queen & spore timings. That leaves 2-base gateway all-ins - which is pretty much all we see from Protoss players in GSL PvZ, which again, are all easily counted by top level Zergs.
If and when the P somehow gets through midgame, secures a third and maybe even a fourth, things are much more interesting, with several different styles being somewhat viable, but again, just like in PvT, when a P loses a lategame match it's hard to say whether that was because Infestor + Broodlord is too strong or because P players simply don't have the experience playing lategame matches - because it rarely ever gets to that point, and most of the time, P are playing from way behind economically.
All in all, personally I don't see how can what I consider to be the issues of Protoss race be fixed without a pretty substantial rework. Perhaps charge could be moved to cybernetics core, that would let Protoss deal with roach / marauder kiting easier in early game, without breaking late game too much, but what do I know, I'm not a game designer.
On August 10 2011 00:33 Bagi wrote: Protoss players are losing to early game terran all-ins in the GSL, yet this thread has become a generic protoss whine thread. Suddenly protoss is terrible at everything.
Whats the point?
Errr I think most posters are highlighting 2 major issues: Lack of harass options and vulnerability to earlygame all-ins (PvT). Even blizzard has made note of the lack of harass and problematic timing attacks.
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us.
Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss.
Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance)
Former Zerg and current Protoss problems are the same in nature - as is the forum behavior in regards to "balance".
I would bet every cent I own that you can't name a Protoss comp that would solve our problems.
Just like Zergs couldn't name a comp that would solve their own problems.
It's not about strategy anyway, it's more about raising the level of play that affects metagame the most and allows you to use your units differently and more efficiently (thus shutting down some previously effective strategies).
Do I need to remind you that Ret completely dominated Naniwa with pretty much the most standard unit compositions for Zerg since beta (I've only seen Infestors in 2 games, one they just got sniped, other they weren't even used).
Thinking in terms of unit compositions is thinking on an extremely low level.
On August 10 2011 00:24 Olsson wrote: Protoss doesn't need any buffs nor does terran need a nerf. Protoss needs to start fucking doing new stuff
This point of view is fucking infuriating. Why is it that people assume that ever protoss is a retard. That top protoss players who are getting shit in Korea are just trying the same thing over and over. Of course they try to "fucking do new stuff". It clearly isn't working. Their may be something that has yet to be discovered but to act like P players must be sitting back and twiddling their thumbs while T and Z try new stuff is short sighted, arrogant, and idiotic.
Just keep watching the big protoss games. Those guys are working on it. And no offense, but they're smarter than all of us. Big discussions like this aren't really necessary.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar?
Every game I get the chance, in GM.
Storm drops are fantastic lategame, but that's lategame. There's a lack of reliable midgame harassment options that don't require extreme tech rushing, which means P's midgame is very fragile and cannot afford mistakes or they will fall behind (barring some sort of timing all-in).
Protoss lacks a unit that can clear out workers/kill tech quickly in the midgame (yeah you can DT drop rush but that build is incredibly fragile and greedy). Dropping 2 immortals is kind of cute but also slower than dropping 8 marines, and more expensive.
Choya v Qxc in the GSTL showed Warp prism speed + Colossus drops and while Choya was blatantly intended it to be cute it also showed potiential.
Collossus drops? Chances are the terran saw your support bay and will start making vikings. Then he keeps one viking in each of his mineral lines.
As you can see Protoss have except for May had an underrepresentation when it comes to the GSL. I did not include the statistics for 2010 because that's pretty irrelevant right now.
The interesting thing here is if we look at the players on the nine pro-gaming teams in Korea there are 51 protoss (according to TLPD) These 51 players represent 31,9% of the players in these teams which is very close to 1/3.
(World Championship and Super Tournament players were decided on previous GSL records and they are a bit different so I didn't include them in this comparison.)
On August 10 2011 00:20 BuddhaMonk wrote: I think some people here underestimate how much of an impact Blizzard's patches have on the game.
The infestor buff patch went live in mid-march, isn't it funny how it's also at that exact point where Zerg winrates start to improve drastically. That data doesn't fit with the narrative that Zerg just "figured out" how to play. No, the infestor was buffed and Zerg started winning. That's not a coincidence.
Meanwhile, let's take a look at Protoss in patches since the game went live:
1.1.0 WarpGate research time nerf
1.1.2 Void Ray damage nerf
1.2.0 Flux Vanes nerf
1.3.0 Amulet and Vortex nerf
1.3.3 Another WG research nerf (and pylon nerf)
During that time the only significant buffs Protoss received were Obs, Phoenix slightly reduced cost and the Archon buff.
At a certain point, all of these nerfs are going to catch up with you.
Then why do Losira and Nestea have 90% win ratios versus Protoss despite rarely using infestors?
It's only bad EU pro's abusing infestors. Koreans mostly still avoid them.
Because they can expand freely w/o risk and then zerg macro mechanics takes over and it does not matter what units they have. Protoss now takes a FE in response but they just take a third and protoss cant at that point in the game.
They are awesome players too but when protoss CAN NOT deny it spells big big troubles. Terran still can pressure fortunately but even that matchup is rather imba even is w/l is 50/50. Terran strong early until zerg ball takes over.
NesTea and Losira have designed a specific build that deters the current Protoss favourtism shown towards using a Stargate to stop Zerg 3rds. There has to be some sort of timing in that build you can use to exploit their defense towards Stargates.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us.
Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss.
Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance)
Former Zerg and current Protoss problems are the same in nature - as is the forum behavior in regards to "balance".
I would bet every cent I own that you can't name a Protoss comp that would solve our problems.
Just like Zergs couldn't name a comp that would solve their own problems.
It's not about strategy anyway, it's more about raising the level of play that affects metagame the most and allows you to use your units differently and more efficiently (thus shutting down some previously effective strategies).
zergling/baneling drop/ultralisk/infestor deals fairly well with the protoss ball. In a lot of ZvP you don't even see an exceptional amount of infestors.
boom. Only buffed slightly by the infestor's increased damage to armor, but now requires more fungals to keep the protoss locked in place.
Turtle behind spinecrawlers while posturing defensively with neural-parasite infestors.
Transition into mass broodlord/infestor/corruptor.
Now explain a unit composition that adequately deals with the 1-1-1.
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does...
Unfortunately you're 100% right.
MC started losing to Terrans and everyone else is copying him.
On August 10 2011 00:11 mrsaturn wrote: 1-1-1 is already solved. look at qtips build in strat forum.
the game is balanced, its just a question of metagame. in a few weeks or so players will have this entirely figured out.
Lmao, it isn't solved. That works for masters player on ladder. It doesn't work in the GSL. There's a big difference.
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
^ No 1 storm isn't but several feedbacks are.
Because the suggestions are just as bad as people telling zerg to use nydus more back when they were in a rut. Use warp prism more? Use carriers? I don't even know what half of the people coming into this thread trying to give advice are talking about. There is no "state of protoss metagame" to change with warp prisms, since the warpgate nerf we have no ability to put on pressure so zerg drones freely and now takes an extremely fast third compared to when they built their third during the time they struggled. All gateway timings have been figured out so it extends into the late game and largely ends in the mid-game because zerg has such a massive macro advantage. Also due to the warpgate nerf the 1-1-1 all-in has made a comeback and been refined because four gate is now holdable (and an instant loss) due to coming 20 seconds later. The warpgate nerf also makes the expansion timing later than it could safely be and you have almost one less round of warpins to combat any early terran all-in, and makes 3gate sentry expand hard versus roach/ling allin.
The struggle of protoss nowadays is almost solely based on the extremely weak early game. PvP is a complete highlight of it, where if you lose one stalker you have now died to your opponent's one base all-in because every unit is fragile in the beginning and hard to reproduce. Protoss is forced into a defensive posture in the early game which allows either for extreme greed or an all-in that still exploits unalterable timings. There really isn't even much to discuss, Blizzard will eventually make some sort of change, protoss will just lose, or Heart of the Swarm will come out and make changes to the overall rigid protoss game design.
The best foreign protoss, Naniwa, and another great one, Sase, are in Code A now and playing soon. Those two basically represent the two best protoss not currently in Korea. So almost every good protoss in the world has gone to Korea, and so far none of them are doing well against the competition there. Naniwa and Sase are unlikely to ever win the GSL but we'll see I suppose.
I always hate it when people claim that Protoss is the least innovative race. The reason why a lot of people see Protoss as "cheesy" in first place is because people invented good 1-2 base timing pushes, like 4 Gate, 4 Gate Blink, 5 Gate, 6 Gate, 6 Gate +1, 7 Gate Blink +1, 7 Gate Blink +2, 5 Gate + Immortals, 3 Gate Stargate, 3 Gate Robo, 7 Gate Chargelot +2 armor. In PvT Protosses have tried Colossus based armies (either with Phoenices or not) and Zealot/Archon/HT based armies, Phoenix openers, DT openers, ridiculously detailed and strict 1Gate Expands etc. In PvZ Protosses have used Colossus armies, Colossus/Void Ray, Zealot/Archon, Stalker/Immortal/HT, even Motherships (before Blizzard decided that Archon Toilet was too powerful trolol). Compared to that it took Terrans a year to figure out how to properly 1-1-1 and Zergs several months to find out that it actually is possible to do multipronged attacks, or build other units than Roach/Hydra/Corruptor, or take a fast third base against FFE maybe.
I think stargate is the key. Specifically mass phoenix. FE, I think the generic pvz opening on shak or any other fast expand maps should be double stargate mass phoenix.
Similarly, PVT phoenix can solve a lot of problems as well. Drops can still work (as Puma showed), but they work like they did in BW zvt; phoenix act like scourge and make drops suicide missions.
On August 10 2011 00:42 -_- wrote: I think stargate is the key. Specifically mass phoenix. FE, I think the generic pvz opening on shak or any other fast expand maps should be double stargate mass phoenix.
Similarly, PVT phoenix can solve a lot of problems as well. Drops can still work (as Puma showed), but they work like they did in BW zvt; phoenix act like scourge and make drops suicide missions.
I agree that there's potential in that direction, I'd like to see more of it in high-level play overall.
I think the most prudent thing to do at this point is to just switch to zerg if you are protoss. This has 2 advantages:
1) you will win more games... this will improve your fun factor and prevent smashing of hardware 2) you will lose to good protoss... this will improve your game theory on how it feels to be a zerg
Bonus advantage/disadvantage: you will be called a fag by all Protoss
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does...
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does...
ok genius. name a comp that would work.
Come on man, now you're just pulling an IdrA and demanding he name an answer immediately or admit total imbalance and impossibility.
I don't think he's entirely right in saying MC is the only innovator, but P doesn't really have a lot of other frontrunners in terms of showing things off at the high level.
On August 10 2011 00:24 Olsson wrote: Protoss doesn't need any buffs nor does terran need a nerf. Protoss needs to start fucking doing new stuff the only new thing they've done is zealot/archon but terran and zerg has experimented. Warp Prism is so underused it's so fast it's weird. Sure it's fragile but it's speed takes that, upgraded warp prism is FAST.
lol l2p protoss. whatever.
Protoss do lots of new stuff. There is no tech tree unused or unexplored and what exactly you want to drop? Zealots that can't even catch probes? And why when you have DT's and warp in?
Blizzard wont give in to P crying just like they didnt to Zerg crying Its like you guys think MC is the only protoss in the world, or the only good one I bet that if Naniwa or Sase win their games tomorrow, you guys will be all like "baaaaw but its Code A" And if HongUn, Alicia, or Puzzle make it to later rounds, it will be like "baaaaaw they were lucky" Im a Protoss player and this thread is embarassing You see P players on BW losing to Hydra timings and you dont see them complaining. All of you are spoiled and will only acknowledge skill over balance when all 3 races are the same with different skins
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does...
Unfortunately you're 100% right.
MC started losing to Terrans and everyone else is copying him.
You mean MC creates a bunch of timing attacks that everyone copies but eventually get adapted to.
I'm hoping for Puzzle/Tassadar to show us some interesting stuff, but Puzzle seems to be based around just absurd APM, and Tassadar off really good timings. Neither of those are particularly... lacking or special when it comes to Protoss. That doesn't mean they aren't really, REALLY good. Just... not game changers.
I'm not an expert at toss at all (I play zerg) and so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I do think toss deserves some sort of buff. I dunno what, any suggestions I make would probably totally screw up the game, but a buff that helps them make changes to the metagame. Obviously the infestor buff helped zerg, but there were also many metagame changes in that time period that helped out even more (imo) like Spanishiwa's play style and zergs realizing they can take really fast thirds and be safe.
While we will have to wait to see if Blizz does anything about it, I would like to see some cool innovation. You guys have already thrown around a lot of great ideas, but I remember seeing this video and thinking it was really cool and funny:
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does...
ok genius. name a comp that would work.
Come on man, now you're just pulling an IdrA and demanding he name an answer immediately or admit total imbalance and impossibility.
I don't think he's entirely right in saying MC is the only innovator, but P doesn't really have a lot of other frontrunners in terms of showing things off at the high level.
idra has qqed every single solitary patch. protoss doesn't cry much. i think we're entitled to at least one instance of asking all the people who say we're overreacting to give us a solution.
On August 10 2011 00:47 gustavohmp wrote: Blizzard wont give in to P crying just like they didnt to Zerg crying Its like you guys think MC is the only protoss in the world, or the only good one I bet that if Naniwa or Sase win their games tomorrow, you guys will be all like "baaaaw but its Code A" And if HongUn, Alicia, or Puzzle make it to later rounds, it will be like "baaaaaw they were lucky" Im a Protoss player and this thread is embarassing You see P players on BW losing to Hydra timings and you dont see them complaining. All of you are spoiled and will only acknowledge skill over balance when all 3 races are the same with different skins
Hey Tosses didn't have any intention of giving all of our abilities and units to the others races, Blizzard just made SC2 like that. We didn't give a dragoon to the other 2 races (marauder and roach). We just ask that if the other races get units like the dragoon, then make ours (the stalker) into less of a "Scout" from BW. =P
Hahaha this topic turned into crazy ass shit. Temp bans should be handed to those claiming EMP nerfs and whatnot - if you're going to use the statistics, please consider why these statistics are skewed. It's not because EMP is imbalanced - I dare say protoss has a considerable upper hand in the lategame where these are introduced - it's because of the 1/1/1 all in, so you either need a tool to handle this or the 1/1/1's effectiveness has to be reduced - how can it be reduced? Marines obviously cannot be touched, siegetanks are unlikely as well, as they're stable in TvZ - so we're left with the banshee.
In PvZ, well, I have no personal insight in the matchup, and stats do seem to be a bit volatile, yet if a change is needed, it's probably a change to the infestor or protoss' way of dealing with them.
A collective solution would be giving Stalkers (or sentries) some sort of energy-burn passive ability, burning X number (could be 4-8) of energy and dealing damage equal to the energy burned. Gives considerable firepower against banshees and infestors. Just a quick idea.
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does...
ok genius. name a comp that would work.
Come on man, now you're just pulling an IdrA and demanding he name an answer immediately or admit total imbalance and impossibility.
I don't think he's entirely right in saying MC is the only innovator, but P doesn't really have a lot of other frontrunners in terms of showing things off at the high level.
idra has qqed every single solitary patch. protoss doesn't cry much. i think we're entitled to at least one instance of asking all the people who say we're overreacting to give us a solution.
There's a difference between asking for suggestions and laying down a 'speak now or hold your peace' ultimatum on balance :p
Everyone gives you suggestions and you shoot them down. I'm curious what kind of answer you want as a response.
all you've done in this thread (i've read every page) is give your stupid zerg point of view and tell toss players to use warp prisms and other gimmicky shit. we're shooting down responses because they've been tried and they don't work. don't you figure that a toss would know how his own units work better than someone who doesn't even play the race? warp prisms are straight up, 100% awful units with virtually no viability unless your opponent is stupid. yes, if every toss player started using them we might win a bit more for about a week until everyone was like 'hey i'll just build 1 viking and get a free win.'
what you are suggesting are builds that are meant to take advantage of the fact that protosses have been playing standard. you're asking us to basically do gimmicky plays because no one would expect it. yeah, no one would expect it, but that doesn't solve the problem. it's not like gimmicky plays imply a paradigm shift in the metagame. protoss needs builds which place them on even footing with the terran even if they are scouted, just like how scouting a terran's 2rax or 111all in still leaves the terran with options. what we don't need are stupid metagame builds which revolve around 'everyone is doing this, nobody will expect if you do this!!! here's 1 free win. this will never work ever again.' that's fucking useless advice.
So what is the Protoss problem because I'm not understanding it. Are you guys complaining about 1-1-1? Or are you complaining about your early game problems? Or are you guys complaining about your lack of a harassment unit?
All of the above. The options protoss has against any race can be counted on one hand. Toss has been nerfed gradually into oblivion as you can see from the post earlier on this page, and all of those nerfs are finally catching up with us.
Terran will end up getting nerfed sooner or later to stop the 1-1-1 being so good. I don't know about the early game problems And HOTS will bring in a harassment unit for Protoss.
Imagine Blizzard told you, when Zerg was losing everything (which had more to do with your weird comps than anything, but let's say it was balance)
Former Zerg and current Protoss problems are the same in nature - as is the forum behavior in regards to "balance".
I would bet every cent I own that you can't name a Protoss comp that would solve our problems.
Just like Zergs couldn't name a comp that would solve their own problems.
It's not about strategy anyway, it's more about raising the level of play that affects metagame the most and allows you to use your units differently and more efficiently (thus shutting down some previously effective strategies).
zergling/baneling drop/ultralisk/infestor deals fairly well with the protoss ball. In a lot of ZvP you don't even see an exceptional amount of infestors.
boom. Only buffed slightly by the infestor's increased damage to armor, but now requires more fungals to keep the protoss locked in place.
Turtle behind spinecrawlers while posturing defensively with neural-parasite infestors.
Transition into mass broodlord/infestor/corruptor.
Now explain a unit composition that adequately deals with the 1-1-1.
It's also easy to "boom" it in hindsight, isn't it?
Now, if you watch some of the recent ZvPs where Zergs dominate top Protoss players, you won't see any Ultralisks and often times Infestors either. You'll often see the most standard unit compositions Zerg used since forever, just used better (roach/ling early, roach/hydra, etc). Baneling drops also aren't anything new.
Like I've said, thinking in terms of unit compositions is thinking on an extremely low level. Unit compositions don't solve anything, and nothing revolutionary will happen to solve this either. People will just figure out how exactly to exploit the weaknesses of 1/1/1 or whatever else there is, and that's that.
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does...
ok genius. name a comp that would work.
Come on man, now you're just pulling an IdrA and demanding he name an answer immediately or admit total imbalance and impossibility.
I don't think he's entirely right in saying MC is the only innovator, but P doesn't really have a lot of other frontrunners in terms of showing things off at the high level.
idra has qqed every single solitary patch. protoss doesn't cry much. i think we're entitled to at least one instance of asking all the people who say we're overreacting to give us a solution.
What makes you think anybody is entitled to it? To be honest if it was up to me, I'd hand out bans like crazy for even discussing so-called imbalances (and a lot of them are actually handed out in other threads). This isn't beta anymore for gods sake. At least as a Protoss player myself I can be somewhat happy that we don't have whiners among progamers like Zergs did... yet. -_-
What makes you think anybody can just "give" you the solution either? The fact that nobody has come up with a workable solution YET doesn't mean you're not overreacting. You KNOW nobody has the exact solution which you just use as an excuse to vent and call all suggestions bad.
This really makes me sad. I would have thought that it would stop a year or so after release and that everyone would figure that eventually all gameplay problems get solved. But now it seems that every time somebody comes up with a refined build/strategy/timing, we're going to have to endure a month of outcry in every corner of SC2 community.
I think Zerg is really instructive here. A big part of Zerg development was figuring out drone timings...but an equally part were two MAJOR buffs and one minor buff. The Roach got +1 Range, which turned it from a mediocre unit into the core Z unit it is today, The Infestor got a major dps buff which gave Z a ranged AOE/map control unit they'd been missing ever since Blizz got rid of the Lurker, and the Spine Controller was made more mobile to make holding off Staregate/DT pressure a bit easier.
The Roach and Infestor buffs were the biggies though. Zerg went from not having a single decent core unit that was useful throughout the game and could win fights straight up, and not having a single late tier unit worth teching towards or any means of delivering ranged AOE and controlling the map, to having units that comfortably fill both roles. Surprise surprise, Z is now vastly more playable and competitive across all levels.
Protoss right now just feel lacking in the way that Z pre-buffs felt lacking. Most of the most abusive timing pushes they had were nerfed out, and the remaining ones have been thoroughly figured out, and it is becoming increasingly obvious that if they aren't exploiting a favorable timing or allowed to reach a critical mass deathball, Protoss are really, really fragile.
I personally feel that the problem isn't with in the protoss race, but in all races. Blizzard thinks that in order to balance a game (with three races), and have all races win roughly 50%, there must be a slight advantage given to one of the races. Granted all three races are played the same, then all three races SHOULD have a 50% win ration, unfortunately this does not make for a very interesting game.
Going into a match thinking that ether myself or my opponent has a advantage in game, makes me feel like I am just playing a more visually stimulating rock paper scissors game. This game had SOOOOO much potential, and blizz is throwing it away, cause they think this is the easier rout. A waiste of what could have been an amazing game tsk tsk.
Z is entirely to strong vs toss. An average zerg can spam roach, or ling, or inf, or muta and gain a respectable rank or league without even using micro. Simply hot key units and send them to an area that is under attack. To many times have I seen Z send units to an area without even looking at what is happening in their base. For example ~ I send 4 phoenix to a Z base, and mass lings show up below my phoenix. Does Z even look whats going on in game? Or are they just massing units and assuming they have some thing to handle w.e aggression is happening? IF so I cant help but think this requires less skill in general.
On August 10 2011 00:08 fritos wrote: State of Protoss is not the problem. State of Terran seems to be causing all the problems....
Care to elaborate?
These charts are not about just the state of Protoss but more about the state of other race vs state of Terran. One race should not have this dominance consistently over the others for this long.
This. The thread should be relabeled 'State of the Terran'
I'm a silver league player so I guess my input isn't very valued, I watch all the events though and what it seems to me is just some inflexibility when it comes to Toss. I mean you pretty much have to go templar or colossi every game, or just all-in. I know that you can say other races are the same, but it seems with Toss you just kinda do what you can based on early scouting, then changing it later costs you an arm and a leg. Also if they were to make actual changes, I'd like to see a change in the concussive shell for marauders, they just seem too good against gateway units. I wouldn't take any of my opinions very seriously though, again SILVER LEAGUER
I think the huk style is what needs to be used more. Either really early expansions (almost always a 1gate fe) or extremely well hidden yet successful all-ins. Protoss players need to realize that the stargate play was cute, but its easily defend able now that its expected more.
Don't worry, come GSL October the top 4 players will probably all be protoss. It always happens in cycles.
Protoss has the same problem zerg had for a huge amount of time. While zerg had the problem to juggle between expansion / units / drones, protoss has also to juggle between expansion / tech / units. What's for zerg units / drones, is for protoss tech / units. You're very often on a thinly path were you have to choose how you continue. Either teching very fast and risking dieing to a timing attack because you don't have enough shit, or completely outmicro them and win the battle regardless. If you delay the teching to much, he'll be more ahead in tech and you surrender even more mapcontrol, letting him take a third for instance.
It's especially prevalent in PvT. If you take your expansion to early, you lack tech (mainly sentries)and units, so he can deny your expansion with several builds that you can't really scout. Now you have to choose to get tech to scout (hallu / robo) or play without scout / detection and get auto-loss against cloak. If you choose to tech up, you get a scout with the robo, but nothing in addition. Immortals are trash past early low unit count battles. If you see now he goes for a 1-1-1, you're fucked, because you have to choose between get higher tech that won't come in time before his attack, or get a shitton of inefficient units against his highly efficient composition. If he choose to expand early as well, you're about even, and you have to choose to either tech fast up to colossus or stay on gateway units and upgrade them. If he scouts that you get early colossus, you surrender mapcontrol, thus he may drop you or do 2 pronged attack, while you're totally on the ropes and the tiniest mistake may cost you the game. If you go for the gateway style, me may just sit back, get good upgrades / ghosts and add a third. You have no way to punish that, other than taking a third as well while slowly teching up, and be susceptible to many timing pushes / drops because you're spread out.
If you go the fast colossus way and survive his drops / pokes etc. , you have to take a third and slowly getting your charge / blink upgrades as well as the storm path, because he'll have enough vikings and will murder your colossus if he doesn't mess up. You have to choose again between units for safety, tech to stay equal in the later game, and the expansion. While you're the whole time really fragile. If you manage to survive all this and be even, you're in a good position, because you have all our tech and a good economy. But you may still lose the game to some good emps. And everything comes down to your gateway units being absolutely shitty and only effective in one blob while using forcefields to segment his army.
On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote: Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings)
Players like Huk and San have gotten carriers before, and they have worked though, so it can work.
Also, carriers are a lot less gas intensive than people may think, because the interceptors cost minerals too
You see P players on BW losing to Hydra timings and you dont see them complaining.
Ugh...you do know there's a been a pretty serious dearth of elite Protoss players for several years now in BW, right? And that even at their best (Bisu, Nal_rA) there has never been a Protoss Bonjwa? The state of Protoss in the BW scene is not something to aspire too.
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does...
Unfortunately you're 100% right.
MC started losing to Terrans and everyone else is copying him.
I don't think you guys understand just how drastic patches are. Just slight nerfs/buffs can totally change a matchup and Protoss had a lot since MC was on top. Just to illustrate how drastic small changes make:
Look at infestor. It got a slight buff, and only to armored units, and went from never being used to being the go to unit for many Zerg.
Archon +1 range and massive, very slight, now protoss everywhere is using them.
Unfortunatly nerfs work the same as well and two WG nerfs has crippled protosses ability to pressure FEs.
A lot of these comments sound exactly the same (except with the races being changed) as when Zergs were complaining about the "ridiculously OP" ZvP matchup. "Protoss" players were telling zergs to try "new, different, stupid, gimmicky shit" like mass infestors, and zergs were saying exactly this:
On August 10 2011 00:24 Olsson wrote: Protoss doesn't need any buffs nor does terran need a nerf. Protoss needs to start fucking doing new stuff
This point of view is fucking infuriating. Why is it that people assume that ever protoss is a retard. That top protoss players who are getting shit in Korea are just trying the same thing over and over. Of course they try to "fucking do new stuff". It clearly isn't working. Their may be something that has yet to be discovered but to act like P players must be sitting back and twiddling their thumbs while T and Z try new stuff is short sighted, arrogant, and idiotic.
that, if their lively hood depended on it, professional protoss players would have figured it out by now. Zergs said the exact same thing a few months ago. If you look at the win rates in the OP, they change every month. It fluctuates between T being higher one month, to P being higher the next month. Is there going to be one of these threads every month solely based on whatever race wins a tournament?
On August 10 2011 00:53 awesomoecalypse wrote: I think Zerg is really instructive here. A big part of Zerg development was figuring out drone timings...but an equally part were two MAJOR buffs and one minor buff. The Roach got +1 Range, which turned it from a mediocre unit into the core Z unit it is today, The Infestor got a major dps buff which gave Z a ranged AOE/map control unit they'd been missing ever since Blizz got rid of the Lurker, and the Spine Controller was made more mobile to make holding off Staregate/DT pressure a bit easier.
The Roach and Infestor buffs were the biggies though. Zerg went from not having a single decent core unit that was useful throughout the game and could win fights straight up, and not having a single late tier unit worth teching towards or any means of delivering ranged AOE and controlling the map, to having units that comfortably fill both roles. Surprise surprise, Z is now vastly more playable and competitive across all levels.
Protoss right now just feel lacking in the way that Z pre-buffs felt lacking. Most of the most abusive timing pushes they had were nerfed out, and the remaining ones have been thoroughly figured out, and it is becoming increasingly obvious that if they aren't exploiting a favorable timing or allowed to reach a critical mass deathball, Protoss are really, really fragile.
Its posts like these that blow my mind.
Protoss is losing to 1-1-1 all-ins. Conclusion? Protoss is as bad as zerg before infestor and roach buffs.
Its just... What? Are you just ranting? How is protoss even weak lategame?
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote: Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings)
Players like Huk and San have gotten carriers before, and they have worked though, so it can work.
Also, carriers are a lot less gas intensive than people may think, because the interceptors cost minerals too
To be fair, didn't San go carriers against Sen as a joke, and proceed to get them all killed by Corruptors easily?
Yeah, he won in the end, but that was by transitioning out of Carriers vs Sen not making anything but roaches (besides those corruptors) for 20 minutes.
On August 10 2011 00:43 theBALLS wrote: Hey lets stick to the issue here, please adhere to the guidelines in the first post.
We should compile a list of points which protoss seems to have no answer to, then try to solve them systematically.
I shall kick it off, do add on valid points should you have them:
1) Lack of a proper harass unit (speed, DPS, cost effectiveness) solution/compromise:
2) Dealing with 1-1-1 marine tank banshee scv all in solution/compromise:
3) Dealing with infestors solution/compromise:
4) Dealing with baneling rain over main army in the course of battles solution/compromise:
5)
Feel free to add on, but only valid points please! Let's keep this thread as flame free as possible.
1) Lack of a proper harass unit (speed, DPS, cost effectiveness) solution/compromise: Give DT energy based blink(when blink is researched). Phoenix moved down to Cybercore. Carriers moved down to stargate
2) Dealing with 1-1-1 marine tank banshee scv all in solution/compromise: Well phoenix is more viable with the suggestion above getting rid of banshee and picking up tanks. Detection from robo.
3) Dealing with infestors solution/compromise: Lower dmg, more energy cost for infested terran . Again phoenix pick up without getting fungled (micro battle with phoenix baiting and etc)
4) Dealing with baneling rain over main army in the course of battles solution/compromise:Don't think this is a big problem. But if needed again - Phoenix
On August 10 2011 00:40 Jesushooves wrote: Read my sig for why protoss are so bad. Seriously, the metagame of protoss is 90% dependent on what MC does...
Unfortunately you're 100% right.
MC started losing to Terrans and everyone else is copying him.
I don't think you guys understand just how drastic patches are. Just slight nerfs/buffs can totally change a matchup and Protoss had a lot since MC was on top. Just to illustrate how drastic small changes make:
Look at infestor. It got a slight buff, and only to armored units, and went from never being used to being the go to unit for many Zerg.
Archon +1 range and massive, very slight, now protoss everywhere is using them.
Unfortunatly nerfs work the same as well and two WG nerfs has crippled protosses ability to pressure FEs.
It's not a "meta game" change but a game change.
Evidently sarcasm is not drastic enough either from me :<
On August 10 2011 00:49 RumbleBadger wrote: I'm not an expert at toss at all (I play zerg) and so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
I do think toss deserves some sort of buff. I dunno what, any suggestions I make would probably totally screw up the game, but a buff that helps them make changes to the metagame. Obviously the infestor buff helped zerg, but there were also many metagame changes in that time period that helped out even more (imo) like Spanishiwa's play style and zergs realizing they can take really fast thirds and be safe.
While we will have to wait to see if Blizz does anything about it, I would like to see some cool innovation. You guys have already thrown around a lot of great ideas, but I remember seeing this video and thinking it was really cool and funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ieY-qy_NvE
I play this opening a lot, on close air. as I have said before. It's good but not great, you have to dump 500 gas early to execute it and sentries do -3 damage. It's cute but not robust. it's hard to defend and expo and invest 400/500 in a drop at the same time. A good player will counterattack when you're in his base and deny your expo and use just a few units to clear up the drop.
Protoss is underpowered comparatively to other races. It has been known for a long time.
Protoss is the easiest to play and abuse but the max cap on protoss is lower than zerg or terran. A's such, the high level Zerg and Terran can play above the protoss cap. This is why protoss don't win big tournaments.
On August 10 2011 01:05 tdt wrote: Why are you guys talking about carriers? lolz 99% of games are over before you can build carriers or BCs. Lets try and stay on topic.
I definitely think it's a metagame thing. There have been new macro builds made (1 gate expand, DT expand, 3 gate expand), but for the most part, Protoss has changed the least out of all 3 races since Beta. Void Ray builds and Stargate openers, while not as strong as they were back then, are still fairly similar because they work. 4 gate has obviously stuck around. TC Blink builds only have minor changes to them since their inception.
I think this is because of two main reasons:
Firstly, something to do with the design of Protoss as compared to Terran or Zerg. Protoss is much less flexible, much more locked into one playstyle once you start. Plus, there are much less harassment options for Protoss unless you go full into harass. Phoenixes, Warp Prisms, and DTs are our harass units. Phoenixes and Prisms are pretty useless in a straight engagement, so if you make them, it's for harass only, for the most part.
MMM drops can be used as harass or as part of a main force. Infestors, Speedlings, and Mutalisks can all be great harass, but also work well in an army composition. Protoss's only fast, mobile unit (Phoenix) doesn't boast the same potential. Stalkers do, but they don't do enough damage to run in, kill a bunch of workers/buildings, then run out again.
Secondly, the "extremeness" of Protoss. All Protoss units are powerful in one regard, but have a major flaw to offset it. Zealots are great DPS and tough, but melee only. Stalkers are mobile and have good range, but don't do the best damage and aren't cost effective. DTs are strong and stealthy, but once the enemy gets detection, they get crushed. Immortals wreck armored ground units, but die to basically anything else, be it Zerglings, Zealots, or anything that flies.
The Colossus is considered a great unit because it's weaknesses can easily be supplemented with good Anti Air. The reason Zealot/Sentry/Stalker works so well in the early game is because they compliment each other very well and make up for each other's weaknesses. However, I don't feel many other Protoss units share this synergy. Voids and Phoenixes work well together in the early game with small numbers, but once ground forces start to grow, they stop working too well.
Looking at these together, the point is this: Protoss, at the moment, lacks a mid-to-late game composition that works well all-around with no glaring weaknesses, and is flexible enough to combat multiple situations. The "death ball" works well in straight confrontations, but can't respond to highly-mobile armies or any sort of efficient army trade. Blink Stalker works ok in most situations, but can fold in head-on engagements against things like MM or Speedling/Infestor.
The only strong new style I've seen so far is mass gateway builds in the late game with darn near every Gateway unit mixed in. It has the flexibility and mobility (at least with Speed Zealots and Stalkers) as well as some straight up fighting force (needs constant upgrades, though). It's only real weakness is big AoE or EMPs.
Still, I feel there is something to be discovered. Maybe a 1-1-1-esque build that gets both a Stargate and Robo bay after the Cyber Core? Maybe more Mothership builds that use the Mothership as a base defense tool to bring armies back in case of counter attack?
On August 10 2011 00:43 theBALLS wrote: Hey lets stick to the issue here, please adhere to the guidelines in the first post.
We should compile a list of points which protoss seems to have no answer to, then try to solve them systematically.
I shall kick it off, do add on valid points should you have them:
1) Lack of a proper harass unit (speed, DPS, cost effectiveness) solution/compromise:
2) Dealing with 1-1-1 marine tank banshee scv all in solution/compromise:
3) Dealing with infestors solution/compromise:
4) Dealing with baneling rain over main army in the course of battles solution/compromise:
5)
Feel free to add on, but only valid points please! Let's keep this thread as flame free as possible.
1) Lack of a proper harass unit (speed, DPS, cost effectiveness) solution/compromise: Give DT energy based blink(when blink is researched). Phoenix moved down to Cybercore. Carriers moved down to stargate
2) Dealing with 1-1-1 marine tank banshee scv all in solution/compromise: Well phoenix is more viable with the suggestion above getting rid of banshee and picking up tanks. Detection from robo.
3) Dealing with infestors solution/compromise: Lower dmg, more energy cost for infested terran . Again phoenix pick up without getting fungled (micro battle with phoenix baiting and etc)
4) Dealing with baneling rain over main army in the course of battles solution/compromise:Don't think this is a big problem. But if needed again - Phoenix
DT blink? You can't be serious. Phoenix made in T1? Nerf infestors, infestors are why zerg isn't dieing to colossi stalker a-move like the first six months of SC2. Learn how to use HT's they're cheaper than infestors and equally as easy to micro.
On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote: Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings)
Players like Huk and San have gotten carriers before, and they have worked though, so it can work.
Also, carriers are a lot less gas intensive than people may think, because the interceptors cost minerals too
I think using carriers have a lot of problems: 1) T/Z have to build anti-air anyways to counter colossus so it's not game changing to go carriers instead of colossus (compared to how you can indirectly weaken Terran army in BW by forcing Goliaths because every Terran would prefer to go pure tank/vulture, that dynamic does not exist in SC2). 2) When you look at the resources you cant just look at the totals. The build time is huge and during that time you are literally doing nothing with the money so unless you are massively ahead its quite dangerously to tech switch to carriers. 3) As far as I can tell there isnt much you can do to micro carriers. I mean you can't move them back and forth but it's not as rewarding as in BW where you can target fire stuff. I've been experimenting with carriers a lot and most of the time if you target fire something you actually do less damage because of overkill, so its at least as good to just leave carriers by themselves which makes it a shallow unit. 4) Carriers are a strange unit in that 1-2 is very very weak but 4-6 can be dangerously strong so I can see why Blizz might be hesitant to over tweak it.
If its 2), then youre so far ahead that its not like going carriers is the reason for your victory, more youll win with anything as long as you dont suicide your whole army.
I think one of the biggest traps toss players fall into is one of two things.
1) You get overly turtly trying to get up that huge colossus ball, in the mean time your opponent is able to get so greedy that by the time you push out your opponent can endlessly reinforce. This coupled with T and Z having more cost effective compositions against the 200/200 toss ball.
Solution: Find more times you can apply pressure, but do it in a smart way. You 3 gate expand and sack a probe, you see it only gets intercepted near the zerg base by a few zerglings....drop a 4th gate while you have that expand going up and do a push...if the Z starts building units just backup.
2) Protoss who do the opposite of 1 and rely entirely on 1 timing push. You 4 gate, you 6 gate or you 3 gate SG...but you have no long term plan you're whole game relies on this 1 push timing.
Solution: Like in the solution above, rather then go for 1 big push timing, have a long term plan. You can go ok I want to do a 5 gate +1 attack pressure, so do that but maybe don't cut probe production and behave as if you're not going to win the game with that push. If you see you can't do a lot of damage try to contain / save your units, backup and focus back on expanding your economy.
Closing: Above all else always look for those finite timings you can do small push outs while macroing behind it. You could quite possibly win the game during one of those pushes...but you absolutely don't have to, and knowing when you can hit those pushes is paramount to keeping your opponents on the defense rather then offense.
On August 10 2011 01:05 VPGeneralHans wrote: Protoss is underpowered comparatively to other races. It has been known for a long time.
Protoss is the easiest to play and abuse but the max cap on protoss is lower than zerg or terran. A's such, the high level Zerg and Terran can play above the protoss cap. This is why protoss don't win big tournaments.
protoss is the easiest to play but also the worst? so...it's the hardest to win with ergo it's the hardest to play?
On August 10 2011 01:05 VPGeneralHans wrote: Protoss is underpowered comparatively to other races. It has been known for a long time.
Protoss is the easiest to play and abuse but the max cap on protoss is lower than zerg or terran. A's such, the high level Zerg and Terran can play above the protoss cap. This is why protoss don't win big tournaments.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Where has this worked? I would enjoy seeing a replay of this being done versus Bomber, or Polt, or any other Code A or Code S terran please. Btw, if you make cannons to protect your mineral lines versus the cloaked banshees, they cloak their banshees, go and kill all of your anti-air and tons of the rest of your army with their banshees, then instantly win.
Looking at these together, the point is this: Protoss, at the moment, lacks a mid-to-late game composition that works well all-around with no glaring weaknesses, and is flexible enough to combat multiple situations. The "death ball" works well in straight confrontations, but can't respond to highly-mobile armies or any sort of efficient army trade. Blink Stalker works ok in most situations, but can fold in head-on engagements against things like MM or Speedling/Infestor.
You're asking for an unbeatable army. Mech is a great example, immobile yet so powerful. Ling, infestor highly mobile though fragile as hell. There's trade offs with every composition.
If you notice, terran is able to tech up to starport super easily, almost impossible to punish. And with a starport up, they have basically ALL of their tech! How many main buildings did they build? rax, fact, starport= 3!!!! If toss builds gate, core that's 2. Now they have to choose between 3 tech paths instead of just building one more thing and having everything. This is the flexibility of terran.
Now obviously I don't want the races to be the same. I would much rather have toss have these 3 tech paths and just make their base units stronger, like they were in BW, to make up for having such inflexible tech. Right now their base units are not as cost effective as terran's, and once they finally tech to one of their 3 paths to get units that are cost effective, terran has ALL their own tech and can make the counter unit.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent
On August 10 2011 00:09 Crying wrote: We should sent Day[9] alot of PvT 1,1,1 all ins and he can do a really professional review and come with a solution. Since HUK died to GanZi in MLG to a 1,1,1 i heard and MC died to Bomber to 1,1,1 i dont know
Why would a master level commentator understand Protoss better than MC?
He wouldn't but he's the best thing we got unless some progamer Protosses want to post in this thread.
On August 10 2011 00:43 theBALLS wrote: Hey lets stick to the issue here, please adhere to the guidelines in the first post.
We should compile a list of points which protoss seems to have no answer to, then try to solve them systematically.
I shall kick it off, do add on valid points should you have them:
1) Lack of a proper harass unit (speed, DPS, cost effectiveness) solution/compromise:
2) Dealing with 1-1-1 marine tank banshee scv all in solution/compromise:
3) Dealing with infestors solution/compromise:
4) Dealing with baneling rain over main army in the course of battles solution/compromise:
5)
Feel free to add on, but only valid points please! Let's keep this thread as flame free as possible.
1) Lack of a proper harass unit (speed, DPS, cost effectiveness) solution/compromise: Give DT energy based blink(when blink is researched). Phoenix moved down to Cybercore. Carriers moved down to stargate
2) Dealing with 1-1-1 marine tank banshee scv all in solution/compromise: Well phoenix is more viable with the suggestion above getting rid of banshee and picking up tanks. Detection from robo.
3) Dealing with infestors solution/compromise: Lower dmg, more energy cost for infested terran . Again phoenix pick up without getting fungled (micro battle with phoenix baiting and etc)
4) Dealing with baneling rain over main army in the course of battles solution/compromise:Don't think this is a big problem. But if needed again - Phoenix
DT blink? You can't be serious. Phoenix made in T1? Nerf infestors, infestors are why zerg isn't dieing to colossi stalker a-move like the first six months of SC2. Learn how to use HT's they're cheaper than infestors and equally as easy to micro.
I don't really think infestors are a problem in the first place :[ Its just a suggestion since people are having "difficultly" with it And yes i am serious about blinking DT thou, lower dmg hp if you want, but i think its a good idea. Just saying
1.) Terran is stupidly OP 2.) Terran mechanics are against all common sense of RTS basics 2.1) No workers, no money? MULES 2.2) No vision? SCAN 2.3) Flying buildings that match the speed of a T3 unit (or almost match it - couldnt find data on that) 3.) EMP is a fucking bitch-joke 3.1) No research needed 3.2) Surpassing every other anti-caster spell range 3.3) Rendering a whole army useless (thanks to stupid movement mechanics in SC2) 4.) A healing dropship 5.) Most basic army composition has the same speed of 2.25
The Terran race is just a joke and you all should apologize for playing that race! --------
So, now that we have put all the archetype hating aside...
I would like to have a more useful Warp Prism. Maybe if the Power Grid would give a bonus such as Guardian Shield? Or something similar to Medivacs, "healing" shields only? That would be nice IMO.
Afar from that it just sadens me every day to see my beloved Toss struggling that hard lately. But don't count us out, we'll find a way, we always do, and our delicious revenge will come...soon...
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent
Replay of this in a high level game where the 1/1/1 is perfectly executed please.
And er, you focus fire the warp prism with your marines and kill 600 minerals worth of stuff? They're smart enough to not leave their tanks way back in a huge clump then run forward all their marines, then sit there and watch them die to zealots.
I think one thing that could help a LOT would be an Immortal buff--either +1 range, or somewhat improved speed.
QTip has posted a decent Immortal-based approach to stopping the 1/1/1 which works somewhat but still feels pretty damn fragile, but if Immortals were a bit better I think it would crush 1/1/1s utterly, so that this all-in would still be potent if totally unscouted, but if the Toss prepares for it they can deal with it comfortably.
It would also make robo a hard counter to both 4-gate and blink in PvP, whie also discouraging war of the worlds (if Immortals can get in range of Colossi they destroy them really, really fast). This would end the coinflip nature of the matchup that currently exists and makes it so crappy.
It would also give Protoss a tool with which to hold some of the crazy roach pushes IM Zergs and Ret have been using to absolutely crush any Protoss who FFEs.
What I like about this approach, is that the Immoral is fairly unique among higher tier units in that it is directly countered by the 3 most basic units in the game, Zealots, Zerglings and Marines. All 3 races, at all times, have the capacity to produce the units they need to deal with Immortals. If Immortals were made stronger, you would definitely not suddenly start seeing people mass up pure Immortal armies.
But what it would do would give Protoss a potent tool to deal with some early to midgame strats in each matchup that are causing them massive problems. And it would also extend the lifespan of Immortals as a reasonably useful unit--right now there is a very, very short window where they are good, after which they are a pretty crap unit.
Range 6 Immortals, or Speed 2.5 or 2.75 Immortals. Either would do wonders to help the race feel stable.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent
terran can literally leave like 3 marines with a tank and kill a warp prism. you won't have sentries/stalkers/zealots + robo + armor upgrade by the time a 1/1/1 hits.
In Korea, the basis of terran is stronger than the other because of boxer nada oov. Among these guys there are genius terrans. Thus they study the game very well. Bunches of strategies come out.
Btw. prince of terran fell to code a.. And Emperor fell to code B
The last balance patch was in early May, the winrates (even in Korea) almost reached all 50% in June. Nothing changed from June-July except that Terran figured out a new ideal 1-1-1 build, and have been experimenting much more heavily in blue flame hellions.
Some people have said that Protoss haven't figured out the 1/1/1 since the beginning of the game...they did, because that was more Polt/Jinro's style of raven/shee/marines - now this is a new variation on it that also needs to be solved.
If it becomes broken like reapers than maybe it'll be nerfed, people are just way too quick to complain because this is the particular flavor of the season.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent
Replay of this in a high level game where the 1/1/1 is perfectly executed please.
And er, you focus fire the warp prism with your marines and kill 600 minerals worth of stuff? They're smart enough to not leave their tanks way back in a huge clump then run forward all their marines, then sit there and watch them die to zealots.
You as protoss about PvZ: You can't beat zerg. Show me a GSL Code S match where the protoss does perfect feedbacks against infestors and wins against a greedy zerg.
On August 10 2011 00:43 theBALLS wrote: Hey lets stick to the issue here, please adhere to the guidelines in the first post.
We should compile a list of points which protoss seems to have no answer to, then try to solve them systematically.
I shall kick it off, do add on valid points should you have them:
1) Lack of a proper harass unit (speed, DPS, cost effectiveness) solution/compromise:
2) Dealing with 1-1-1 marine tank banshee scv all in solution/compromise:
3) Dealing with infestors solution/compromise:
4) Dealing with baneling rain over main army in the course of battles solution/compromise:
5)
Feel free to add on, but only valid points please! Let's keep this thread as flame free as possible.
1) Lack of a proper harass unit (speed, DPS, cost effectiveness) solution/compromise: Give DT energy based blink(when blink is researched). Phoenix moved down to Cybercore. Carriers moved down to stargate
2) Dealing with 1-1-1 marine tank banshee scv all in solution/compromise: Well phoenix is more viable with the suggestion above getting rid of banshee and picking up tanks. Detection from robo.
3) Dealing with infestors solution/compromise: Lower dmg, more energy cost for infested terran . Again phoenix pick up without getting fungled (micro battle with phoenix baiting and etc)
4) Dealing with baneling rain over main army in the course of battles solution/compromise:Don't think this is a big problem. But if needed again - Phoenix
DT blink? You can't be serious. Phoenix made in T1? Nerf infestors, infestors are why zerg isn't dieing to colossi stalker a-move like the first six months of SC2. Learn how to use HT's they're cheaper than infestors and equally as easy to micro.
I don't really think infestors are a problem in the first place :[ Its just a suggestion since people are having "difficultly" with it And yes i am serious about blinking DT thou, lower dmg hp if you want, but i think its a good idea. Just saying
Would it be terribly OP for DT and HT to come out of the same tech building? It would indirectly give the other two races reasons to include detection in their builds (which zergs are already doing vs stargate) so just terran. I mean, protoss already has to go robo vs terran or risk getting raped by banshees.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent
Replay of this in a high level game where the 1/1/1 is perfectly executed please.
And er, you focus fire the warp prism with your marines and kill 600 minerals worth of stuff? They're smart enough to not leave their tanks way back in a huge clump then run forward all their marines, then sit there and watch them die to zealots.
You as protoss about PvZ: You can't beat zerg. Show me a GSL Code S match where the protoss does perfect feedbacks against infestors and wins against a greedy zerg.
On August 10 2011 01:14 Olsson wrote: DT shouldn't get blink that's a retarded suggestion. That's like if mutas could burrow.
Mutas can get away easily DTs cannot, and i think that is why DT harassment is greatly discouraged since its a suicide mission and high cost of that. Besides i said give it blink in terms of energy base, make it like idk 100 each blink so you can only blink in and out once per 200 sec
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent
Replay of this in a high level game where the 1/1/1 is perfectly executed please.
And er, you focus fire the warp prism with your marines and kill 600 minerals worth of stuff? They're smart enough to not leave their tanks way back in a huge clump then run forward all their marines, then sit there and watch them die to zealots.
No one can perfectly execute anything. Youre assuming the T is a pretty good player and the P is a pretty shitty one, and you want the P player to still win If theyre smart enough to not let you rape them, then you are just dumber than them. If you want a high-level solution, be high-level yourself, maybe then you can find it. The way you talk, no one but successful pros can discuss strategy. And you dont look like a successful pro to me.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
honestly if you think its the players then why were most of you other races(zerg) whinning how toss was op 5-6 months ago and now all of a sudden all those same toss players got worse in skill level/ other races got so much better, even though the general practice time of a pro is rediculously similar. saying toss has no skill is somewhat illogical in a way~ bring back unnerfed warpgates unnerfed voidrays and unnerfed hts... then we will see whatsup~ until then this is a legit thread imo. since no races has been nerfed as much as toss!
Switch warpgate+hallucination from cybercore with charge/blink upgrades from twilight council. Not only will this kill 4 gate rush, it allows zlots and stalkers to be a lot more useful early on: as I feel both units are quite useless without forcefields.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Where has this worked? I would enjoy seeing a replay of this being done versus Bomber, or Polt, or any other Code A or Code S terran please. Btw, if you make cannons to protect your mineral lines versus the cloaked banshees, they cloak their banshees, go and kill all of your anti-air and tons of the rest of your army with their banshees, then instantly win.
I don't recall the game, but it was done vs bNy (not exactly pro terran) a few months ago. Protoss did 3 gate expo, made a robo for the banshees, and made almost nothing but zealots and stalkers. Charge finished in time for him to finally a-move all his stuff and crush the push - being one base up he easily won the rest of the game.
What I see protoss try to do in GSL is 3 gate immortal......and immortals kinda suck vs marines- banshees do well too since every shot actually fires 2 attacks, negating the hardened shield for the most part. There could be plenty of other ways to deal with it, I'm not a protoss player so I wouldn't know these, but considering that, like I said, everyone just copies MC, and PvT is MC's worst matchup...maybe protoss should try looking to someone else for builds.
On August 10 2011 01:14 Olsson wrote: DT shouldn't get blink that's a retarded suggestion. That's like if mutas could burrow.
Mutas can get away easily DTs cannot, and i think that is why DT harassment is greatly discouraged since its a suicide mission and high cost of that. Besides i said give it blink in terms of energy base, make it like idk 100 each blink so you can only blink in and out once per 200 sec
DTs are great as it stands. Many people just have the wrong idea about them. They think they HAVE to kill tons of works to be beneficial when most of the time they get sick map control and other benefits as well as potential to kill workers
Carrier buff might help. You never see carriers in a serious 1vs1 game anyway (well, lately at least).
I would love to see Carriers buffed just to make the game more fun...but how would that in any way help with the primary issues at hand, namely that Protoss can't even get to the midgame vs. Terran, and has no real way that isn't a complete all-in to punish a greedy Zerg. A buff to a unit that doesn't appear until 20 minutes into the game doesn't matter when every Protoss is dying in the first 11 minutes.
On August 10 2011 01:21 nt-rAven wrote: honestly if you think its the players then why were most of you other races(zerg) whinning how toss was op 5-6 months ago and now all of a sudden all those same toss players got worse in skill level/ other races got so much better, even though the general practice time of a pro is rediculously similar. saying toss has no skill is somewhat illogical in a way~ bring back unnerfed warpgates unnerfed voidrays and unnerfed hts... then we will see whatsup~ until then this is a legit thread imo. since no races has been nerfed as much as toss!
Yup. Someone cuts off your leg and lets race and see how you do on the podium. Thats what happened with protoss.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
wtf are you trying to say? I should commit into 4/5 gate every game vs T now JUST IN CASE he is doing 1-1-1? I'm really starting to lose faith in ppl when reading this thread.
I think this is a balance whine thread beneath the layer. You're saying that MC goes in Up&Down but it's not logical because he's a good player henceforth the "what??". It's because he just like Jinro probably isn't motivated to practice and isn't as good right now anymore.
In my opinion protosses have been doing the same thing for a year now and they need to start doing drops and more aggressive things.
Protoss are not terran.
And do you even remember when pros went one base collosus? Or when no one did canon expand?
carriers are the protoss death ball we'd like, but transitioning to them is very difficult. In a more realistic view, I think we either need to see people figure out good standard midgame army compositions that don't rely on a small number of crucial units. I know this is somewhat balance, but I also think neural parasite should be changed to not work on massive units or in some other way nerfed. Current protoss strats require a small number of expensive units (archons, collo, etc.) for the most part.
Good play with low tech gateway armies can be managed with nice blink micro and sentries, so this is certainly possible, but it tends to scale badly against the lowest tech units of the other races (lings and marines).
i think for carriers to be more viable they would have to cost less gas (protoss units in general are just so gas heavy, its hard to justify sacrificing 250 gas for 1 carrier) and would have to be produced faster (takes 120 game seconds to make compared to battlecruiser's 90?).
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent
Replay of this in a high level game where the 1/1/1 is perfectly executed please.
And er, you focus fire the warp prism with your marines and kill 600 minerals worth of stuff? They're smart enough to not leave their tanks way back in a huge clump then run forward all their marines, then sit there and watch them die to zealots.
No one can perfectly execute anything. Youre assuming the T is a pretty good player and the P is a pretty shitty one, and you want the P player to still win If theyre smart enough to not let you rape them, then you are just dumber than them. If you want a high-level solution, be high-level yourself, maybe then you can find it. The way you talk, no one but successful pros can discuss strategy. And you dont look like a successful pro to me.
...What?
The way I talk is that every high level protoss player loses to this build when executed by a high level terran, which is what happens. No one being able to perfectly execute anything has nothing to do with it, the T being a good player and the P being bad and still winning has nothing to do with it, "if theyre smart enough to not let you rape them" has nothing to do with it...nothing you said has anything to do with anything I said. No high level protoss has held this against a high level terran unless the terran has made a massive mistake like forget siege mode, which would be like me trying to do a colossus timing attack and forgetting colossus range.
So yes, in that case no one but successful pros can discuss the strategy because Johnny Diamond can't say something that sounds smart like "just zealot bomb his tanks" and think that is a viable solution. If there is a solution to this, that works on the level where the terran is smart enough to focus fire, spread his units correctly, etc. then it will not be discovered by some no-name on teamliquid.net theorycrafting about warp prisms.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
wtf are you trying to say? I should commit into 4/5 gate every game vs T now JUST IN CASE he is doing 1-1-1? I'm really starting to lose faith in ppl when reading this thread.
No, looks like he's saying he used to play zerg and that four gate was impossible to deal with, even though it stopped working well against anything but protoss before it got nerfed anyway. So he's basically being cute by saying "hahaha I whined about what you did forever, now I get to watch you whine, isn't this awesome, hohoho" which is extremely helpful.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
It isn't a big deal, terran has an allin and protoss are having trouble stopping it. It's not like the 1/1/1 involves terran just a-moving tanks marines and banshees - you have to position your tanks right and micro your banshees during harass, not every plat level player can do this. I could argue 4gate 7 stalker push requires far less skill, but just as deadly.
I don't think I magically solved all your 1/1/1 problems - just like if you said to me while having trouble holding 3gate void - just make bunkers dude - you wouldn't solve it, it is still hard to hold, but that's how you stop it.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
It isn't a big deal, terran has an allin and protoss are having trouble stopping it. It's not like the 1/1/1 involves terran just a-moving tanks marines and banshees - you have to position your tanks right and micro your banshees during harass, not every plat level player can do this. I could argue 4gate 7 stalker push requires far less skill, but just as deadly.
I don't think I magically solved all your 1/1/1 problems - just like if you said to me while having trouble holding 3gate void - just make bunkers dude - you wouldn't solve it, it is still hard to hold, but that's how you stop it.
3gate stargate isn't even close to being on the same level as a 1-1-1 allin
phoneix is the only protoss unit that can counter both seige tanks and banshees but the problem is detection at that point, unless its a forge 2 cannons in mineral line, phoenix harass until you get an obs + immortal but that in theory not in practice which is two completly different things
On August 10 2011 01:14 Olsson wrote: DT shouldn't get blink that's a retarded suggestion. That's like if mutas could burrow.
Mutas can get away easily DTs cannot, and i think that is why DT harassment is greatly discouraged since its a suicide mission and high cost of that. Besides i said give it blink in terms of energy base, make it like idk 100 each blink so you can only blink in and out once per 200 sec
DTs are great as it stands. Many people just have the wrong idea about them. They think they HAVE to kill tons of works to be beneficial when most of the time they get sick map control and other benefits as well as potential to kill workers
Are you able to suggest any other way to harass the enemy? Cause i don't think there are any viable/effective way to do so with the current units Protoss is given, without investing an abundant of resource, just to be shut down.
EDIT: Excluding Phoenix which is the solution i think. Agreeing with the poster above ^^
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
It isn't a big deal, terran has an allin and protoss are having trouble stopping it. It's not like the 1/1/1 involves terran just a-moving tanks marines and banshees - you have to position your tanks right and micro your banshees during harass, not every plat level player can do this. I could argue 4gate 7 stalker push requires far less skill, but just as deadly.
I don't think I magically solved all your 1/1/1 problems - just like if you said to me while having trouble holding 3gate void - just make bunkers dude - you wouldn't solve it, it is still hard to hold, but that's how you stop it.
3gate stargate isn't even close to being on the same level as a 1-1-1 allin
Seriously, a viking and bunker full of marines and you're absolutely safe.
Why are people suggesting phoenixes versus 1-1-1 as some kind of miracle solution no one has ever thought of? In close air position you could get lucky and snipe a banshee before cloak finishes, but how bout cross?
The 1-1-1 attack comprises of 20-30 marines what are phoenix going to do against that?
I'm not saying 1-1-1 is unstoppable, the guides on the strategy forum are pretty much spot on.
Also, what is with some of these whines with roach/ling owning 3 gate expand? How is that even worth talking about anymore? As long as you build a forge and pylon as the beginning of your lowground wall off before nexus, and make atleast one cannon you can defend with forcefields. You can even 1 or 2 gate expand to start your wall off quicker. There are also multiple solutions to scouting whether or not you even need the cannon, from chronoing hallucination along the attack path, using 2 zealots, and if your opponent doesn't scout for probes, sending in your probe at around 7ish minutes to see what's up.
Also carrier harass and collossi drop posts should warrant a ban.
The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships: I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates: Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops - What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
On August 09 2011 23:10 Zaros wrote: Well the comman consensus is that protoss needs a unit that can harrass otherwise the protoss has to play almost perfectly to not fall behind against the other races as it is hard to get ahead without such a harrass unit.
I hate to be the same kind of n00b that says "use nydus worms!" but I NEVER see toss use warp prisms a whole lot, except for HuK.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
It isn't a big deal, terran has an allin and protoss are having trouble stopping it. It's not like the 1/1/1 involves terran just a-moving tanks marines and banshees - you have to position your tanks right and micro your banshees during harass, not every plat level player can do this. I could argue 4gate 7 stalker push requires far less skill, but just as deadly.
I don't think I magically solved all your 1/1/1 problems - just like if you said to me while having trouble holding 3gate void - just make bunkers dude - you wouldn't solve it, it is still hard to hold, but that's how you stop it.
3gate stargate isn't even close to being on the same level as a 1-1-1 allin
Yea, 3 gate stargate is easier to pull off. I've been seeing that crap for months in TvP at all levels. That's the only reason 1-1-1 allin is so effective, because it hasn't been popular for very long.
Personally, I'm on the bandwagon that protoss players are just having a bad day, and will catch up when someone figures something out. Remember how impossible ZvP seemed for the zerg? Sure there was an infestor change but the real contributing factor to zergs coming back was team IM creating these new strategies, tricks and even mindsets when facing protoss, and that's what led to the IM vs IM finals. I don't really remember the last time I saw a protoss player that left the impression: "Holy shit! This guy is amazing!", if feels like they've stopped innovating in a productive direction and now they're paying for it.
On August 10 2011 01:14 Olsson wrote: DT shouldn't get blink that's a retarded suggestion. That's like if mutas could burrow.
Mutas can get away easily DTs cannot, and i think that is why DT harassment is greatly discouraged since its a suicide mission and high cost of that. Besides i said give it blink in terms of energy base, make it like idk 100 each blink so you can only blink in and out once per 200 sec
DTs are great as it stands. Many people just have the wrong idea about them. They think they HAVE to kill tons of works to be beneficial when most of the time they get sick map control and other benefits as well as potential to kill workers
Are you able to suggest any other way to harass the enemy? Cause i don't think there are any viable/effective way to do so with the current units Protoss is given, without investing an abundant of resource, just to be shut down.
You said DTs needed a change, they don't really. They fill their capacities. Protoss doesn't really have a dedicated harassment unit but most races don't either. The real issue is how protoss units in small groups don't really keep the same kind of effectiveness that they have in big groups so you can never really split your army into smaller chunks while remaining effective like a Terran can do. Neither do they have the mobility to harass like Zerg do. Honestly I think warpgate/Sentry has screwed the race slightly.
On August 10 2011 01:15 jimbob615 wrote: honestly i think its the players not the race. if bisu plays sc2 he will show everyone how it's done.
Protoss sucks in BW too. For like one year they were on top...mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season and all far rank behind their Z&T compatriots in metals/seasons/longevity/fame.
On August 10 2011 01:21 nt-rAven wrote: honestly if you think its the players then why were most of you other races(zerg) whinning how toss was op 5-6 months ago and now all of a sudden all those same toss players got worse in skill level/ other races got so much better, even though the general practice time of a pro is rediculously similar. saying toss has no skill is somewhat illogical in a way~ bring back unnerfed warpgates unnerfed voidrays and unnerfed hts... then we will see whatsup~ until then this is a legit thread imo. since no races has been nerfed as much as toss!
Yup. Someone cuts off your leg and lets race and see how you do on the podium. Thats what happened with protoss.
They learn to stand on one leg, and then they get that leg cut off too.
My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran: In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved. Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg: Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning. The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
Why doesn't everyone just go the practice partner thread, ask for a terran practice partner - and tell him to do the 1/1/1 against you until you figure out a way to stop it?
As of right now people just bitch and moan about it like it is impossible to stop because fucking MC hasn't done some miracle build against it yet.
Protoss weakness are the harras options and ground army mobility imo. At the first stages of the game they were considered imba because it was a game of a+move, but now that the game is evolving, they are falling behind, wich is totally normal. (remins me of BW, where unless u were a total beast, you would never achieve anything as protoss) Btw, i am zerg.
The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships: I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates: Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops - What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck. Do you even play this game? At least read the thread, just about every single one of your points was already responded to.
You are correct though that game balance doesn't effect 99% of us playing but how about us watching it? We don't like seeing every single protoss get 1-1-1 out of GSL.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent
Replay of this in a high level game where the 1/1/1 is perfectly executed please.
And er, you focus fire the warp prism with your marines and kill 600 minerals worth of stuff? They're smart enough to not leave their tanks way back in a huge clump then run forward all their marines, then sit there and watch them die to zealots.
No one can perfectly execute anything. Youre assuming the T is a pretty good player and the P is a pretty shitty one, and you want the P player to still win If theyre smart enough to not let you rape them, then you are just dumber than them. If you want a high-level solution, be high-level yourself, maybe then you can find it. The way you talk, no one but successful pros can discuss strategy. And you dont look like a successful pro to me.
...What?
The way I talk is that every high level protoss player loses to this build when executed by a high level terran, which is what happens. No one being able to perfectly execute anything has nothing to do with it, the T being a good player and the P being bad and still winning has nothing to do with it, "if theyre smart enough to not let you rape them" has nothing to do with it...nothing you said has anything to do with anything I said. No high level protoss has held this against a high level terran unless the terran has made a massive mistake like forget siege mode, which would be like me trying to do a colossus timing attack and forgetting colossus range.
So yes, in that case no one but successful pros can discuss the strategy because Johnny Diamond can't say something that sounds smart like "just zealot bomb his tanks" and think that is a viable solution. If there is a solution to this, that works on the level where the terran is smart enough to focus fire, spread his units correctly, etc. then it will not be discovered by some no-name on teamliquid.net theorycrafting about warp prisms.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
wtf are you trying to say? I should commit into 4/5 gate every game vs T now JUST IN CASE he is doing 1-1-1? I'm really starting to lose faith in ppl when reading this thread.
No, looks like he's saying he used to play zerg and that four gate was impossible to deal with, even though it stopped working well against anything but protoss before it got nerfed anyway. So he's basically being cute by saying "hahaha I whined about what you did forever, now I get to watch you whine, isn't this awesome, hohoho" which is extremely helpful.
Oh, so proplayers know the game inside-out, and if they cant deal with a push like 1/1/1 who has been around ever since the beta, then the game is imbalanced? Come on.
1/1/1 consist of marines, tanks, and a banshee. In my scenario, the Raven is irrelevant, since Im not using DTs and stalkers arent the butter here. Zealots rape marines. Zealots rape tanks. Have your stalkers instead of attacking a siege line. If you dont have enough Zealots / Sentries to deal with the marines, you deserve to lose. Banshees cant hit air, so they cant stop the WP. If you cant get the Zealots above the tanks, you can use it to warp stuff outside of your base for a flank. What makes immortals bad against this push is because immortals are bad against marines, but if you can rule them out, then immortals are pretty good against it. Everything you have been saying so far boils down to "no, your strategy wont work. If you a-move and get outplayed this shit is imbalanced, period." Stop acting like an smartass if thats all you can say.
Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak?
Why are you talking about a different game? They didnt figure anything out. Rather they just won't die today to a VR sitting in their FE doing 40 DPS. They won't die to a 4 gate punishing a 1/1/1 because it does not exist ANYMORE. Different game.
Give us our unnerfed warpgates unnerfed voidrays and unnerfed hts... then we will see how much they "figured out"
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
Phoenix -,-
Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote: The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships: I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates: Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops - What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
for one, the problem is that protoss cant survive till 3base vs 3base or more. and mothership? really? you do know that emp makes mothership completely useless, and cloaking effect and nullified by 1 scan lol. Drops are still used, but way more expensive than Z/T drops, and way more risky. 2-3 HT that have storm ready that you use in a drop might lose you the game because you didnt have those extra storms in your army. Honestly i try to use them, but only when im obviously ahead. And warp prisms are like 3 shotted by vikings lol
I may not be grand master. But at hi diamond master's level. You can easily win games with wonky builds that are well executed.
Personally, I love playing protoss against my friends. I'm just great and being unpredictable althought my sneaky expand pressure builds are commonly known
Looking at the graph they seemed fine last month and there haven't been any balance changes made in the last few months. The amulet nerf happened a while ago. I think we need more time to see if the trend continues you can't look at one bad month.
On August 10 2011 01:44 Eiduart wrote: A bunch of slayers player died to 3g void against prime the other night. Ganzi had a viking and a bunker full of marines and died.
you fail to realize that he forgot to repair, wwas the only reason he died. 100% his fault, he had the game won.
On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote: The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships: I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates: Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops - What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck? You are saying that toss should be defensive pvt? Use storm drops? I thought that was common knowledge for anyone diamond +
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
It isn't a big deal, terran has an allin and protoss are having trouble stopping it. It's not like the 1/1/1 involves terran just a-moving tanks marines and banshees - you have to position your tanks right and micro your banshees during harass, not every plat level player can do this. I could argue 4gate 7 stalker push requires far less skill, but just as deadly.
I don't think I magically solved all your 1/1/1 problems - just like if you said to me while having trouble holding 3gate void - just make bunkers dude - you wouldn't solve it, it is still hard to hold, but that's how you stop it.
3gate stargate isn't even close to being on the same level as a 1-1-1 allin
Yea, 3 gate stargate is easier to pull off. I've been seeing that crap for months in TvP at all levels. That's the only reason 1-1-1 allin is so effective, because it hasn't been popular for very long.
It's been popular for ages, it just hasn't been "do it every fucking game" popular.
Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak?
Why are you talking about a different game? They didnt figure anything out. Rather they just won't die today to a VR sitting in their FE doing 40 DPS. They won't die to a 4 gate punishing a 1/1/1 because it does not exist ANYMORE. Different game.
Give us our unnerfed warpgates unnerfed voidrays and unnerfed hts... then we will see how much they "figured out"
It is the same game and protoss have been doing the same strategies over and over which is why Terran is now in a comfortable lead.
On August 10 2011 01:44 gustavohmp wrote: Oh, so proplayers know the game inside-out, and if they cant deal with a push like 1/1/1 who has been around ever since the beta, then the game is imbalanced? Come on.
VR speed upgrade removed, KA removed, WG research nerfed twice...still wonder why an old build has no answer now?
The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships: I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates: Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops - What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck. Do you even play this game? At least read the thread, just about every single one of your points was already responded to.
You are correct though that game balance doesn't effect 99% of us playing but how about us watching it? We don't like seeing every single protoss get 1-1-1 out of GSL.
People are not only complaining about 1-1-1. They act like protoss is the worst race, period.
What comes to watching games, just look at recent foreigner tournaments: protoss won dreamhack, top3 at HSC3 were protoss, and protoss also got 2nd place at both Assembly and Blizz EU invitational last weekend. In foreigner tournaments protoss is doing very good. Luckily for us, these tournaments exist and GSL with its all-ins isnt everything.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
Phoenix -,-
Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
Jinro explain us what kills you when u make 1,1,1?
Im gonna say again HuK had one night on the korean ladder awhile ago when he had 7-8games vs a T player that 1,1,1ed him every game and HuK lost all of them except for 2 i think when he just 4gated blink him and won before the initial push
On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote: My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran: In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved. Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg: Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning. The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
This has a lot to do with how the tech tree is laid out for Protoss. It's not "deep", in that you can get to the "highest tier" units very fast. Protoss can get to Colossi/HT/DT faster than a Thor or BC, and waaay faster than Ultralisk or Brood Lord.
With that in mind, there really isn't anywhere more to go past a certain point in the game. Protoss reaches their endgame much faster than either other race, the only thing holding them back is cost and production facilities. Zerg is constantly working toward Lair tech in the early game, then Hive tech comes out on ~4 bases. Terran can go 111, but then they're down on units. Protoss can get Colossi on one base and have a decent Gateway force to supplement it, and have Archons en masse on 2 bases.
There really isn't more to explore when you've had time to look in every nook and cranny. I think what Protoss needs to do now is to look into compositions more than anything. Warp Prism drops with Phoenix/Void Ray support, maybe?
On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote: The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships: I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates: Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops - What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck? You are saying that toss should be defensive pvt? Use storm drops? I thought that was common knowledge for anyone diamond +
If it's common knowledge, then why aren't you people doing it rather then bitching about the state of protoss? I am suggesting everybody to experiment rather the copy builds and styles they see MC use. And I said toss should be defensive too because most protosses are aggressive. Who's to say that defense isn't the solution? how about you test it yourself before bickering about how it won't work.
On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote: My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran: In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved. Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg: Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning. The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote: My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran: In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved. Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg: Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning. The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
lol agreed 100% with you
I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see.
I think the problem is there is no real "Protoss Team". Terran has SlayerS and Zerg has IM to make new strategies and create/exploit timings. The only innovators for Toss are MC and WhiteRa/Huk and there is no Protoss centered team. So solutions and new stuff takes a long time to come out, but it should get there.
Game balance does actually affect all brackets unlike popular belief. At lower skill levels, while the protoss may not have the best control of his units to defend an all-in, the person executing the all-in may not have the tightest build order and his push may not be on par with what we see in pro games.
Some people in the thread suggest a buff to carriers. I hope they are just trolling, as protoss is struggling early game and not that much in late game.
This is one thing I really hate about sc2: its starting to become a game of "who has the stronger all-in to kill the other guy".
Anyway MC asked for that ... arrogant little shit ;p
made my morning that did.
I think the game has shifted recently anyway with zergs mixing up their game, which has caused terran to mix up theirs. as someone already said protoss have very few options since the ht nerf.
On August 10 2011 01:51 lee365 wrote: I think the problem is there is no real "Protoss Team". Terran has SlayerS and Zerg has IM to make new strategies and create/exploit timings. The only innovators for Toss are MC and WhiteRa/Huk and there is no Protoss centered team. So solutions and new stuff takes a long time to come out, but it should get there.
That is what I said. The less protoss players, the longer the solution.
On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote: My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran: In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved. Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg: Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning. The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
lol agreed 100% with you
I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see.
haha very common, people still don't realize how difficult to play protoss it is
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
Phoenix -,-
Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
Also free loss against various terran MMM based builds. Phoenix openings rly only work in maps with small enough choke at natural so you can hold it with few forcefields. In maps with open expos phoenix openings are yet another guessing game depending on what T is doing.
On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote: The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships: I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates: Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops - What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck? You are saying that toss should be defensive pvt? Use storm drops? I thought that was common knowledge for anyone diamond +
If it's common knowledge, then why aren't you people doing it rather then bitching about the state of protoss? I am suggesting everybody to experiment rather the copy builds and styles they see MC use. And I said toss should be defensive too because most protosses are aggressive. Who's to say that defense isn't the solution? how about you test it yourself before bickering about how it won't work.
Anyone diamond+ and is not misinformed does it. But I see that I shouldn't even have made my initial post anyway since he was probably responding to some bronze protoss.
On August 10 2011 01:51 lee365 wrote: I think the problem is there is no real "Protoss Team". Terran has SlayerS and Zerg has IM to make new strategies and create/exploit timings. The only innovators for Toss are MC and WhiteRa/Huk and there is no Protoss centered team. So solutions and new stuff takes a long time to come out, but it should get there.
sorry but it's not like that ): that's not about players, protoss had a lot of players and is getting lower as the winrate gets lower, you can see GSL the players number, it started in the first one with ~28 protoss from 64 spots, look now how many are still there
a example that comes in mind in byun, was very bad protoss, became terran and now goes ro4 code S
Protoss is the most gimmicky and cheesy of all the races. They were busy doing the 6-7 gate all-ins, DT all-ins, blink-stalker all-ins, 3-gate 1-star all-ins against both terrans and zergs instead of improving. Now they have a taste of their own medicine with the marine/tank/banshee/raven build.
well I didnt read the whole thread but for me there is one big problem that destroys PvT CLOAK BANSHEE You have to go robo unless there is a clear indication he isn't going to do that This totally destroys the matchup and robo tech is fuckin bad at least as an opener..
On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote: My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran: In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved. Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg: Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning. The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
lol agreed 100% with you
I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see.
Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". Remember when terran could never beat a 3 base protoss with templar because every time you'd attack everything would get stormed instantly. Protoss said "fuck you idiots, get better at emp". All players are gonna be biased towards their own race.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
Phoenix -,-
Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
If u say `phoenix opening is free win against every factory build` please could u give examples and further explanation ?
it is easy to just say something. In my eyes its important for a good discussion to go in details to get a good picture about things.
Immortals feel weak, Prisms feel weak, Carriers feel weak. Perhaps they could use a little 'Roach +1 Range' love.
That said, I suspect Protoss will look more attractive with increased Phoenix play, because Phoenix are excellent at denying 'cute' play and punishing threadbare defenses or retreats. Zealots and Immortals (especially with a sentry or two) look a lot more attractive when Phoenix are denying air-to-ground and preventing the opponent from retreating without losing a lot of units to pickups. (So do Warp Prisms, since you already have air support for your dropped/warped ground harassment, and you can poke in ahead of time so you know the Prism isn't flying into its demise.)
Stargates and Twilight Councils have much more room for aggressive play than Robos and Sentries, because they sell fast units that can chase or retreat from enemy forces. However, Twilight openings need a solution to Banshee Cloaking builds, since you won't have the chance to scout it. (Which is not to say one doesn't exist... like a gas steal, or the addition of a Robo in time for defensive obs against a one-rax gas opening from Terran, or simply playing a different opening against builds that could be one-rax gas. Or a timing at which you expect to kill a player who tech straight Cloak.)
Coming from a terran, it feels as though protoss is.. flat. (if that makes sense)
There's nothing *special* about their play its just make ball->attack w/ ball
Storm drops are expensive if they die, dt's are a heavy investment if you are just using them to harass, phoenixes are relatively fragile and take away from gateway/robo production, vrays are slow, carriers are very rarely seen (cost+time>value). Almost every unit protoss has is designed to fight in a central engagement. high templars, colossi, archons, carriers, vrays are all made for big fights. Phoenix/dt are prohibitively expensive early and easily countered late, gateway units are just kinda meh in all situations.
Zerg, on the other hand, has ling runby, bling drop, mutas, infestors, and blords as "reaction-forcers". You ignore any of those for any length of time, and you get punished HARD. Most of those will also either hold their own in a fight or work wonders as delayers.
Terran has a lot more flexibility in army composition terms. while MMMVG is the most prevalent vs P in non-allin games, you can also mech, pure MMM with lots of drops, qxc nuke/reaper/MMM style, just a lot of variety in general. There's no automatic loss when you lose a drop, or a ghost, or a small clump of army (mech possibly excluded). Protoss has to be really careful about conserving units until they reach that deathball, because before that they just end up dying really fast.
On August 10 2011 01:55 Joseph123 wrote: well I didnt read the whole thread but for me there is one big problem that destroys PvT CLOAK BANSHEE You have to go robo unless there is a clear indication he isn't going to do that This totally destroys the matchup and robo tech is fuckin bad at least as an opener..
Even if u are 100% sure the terran's tech path is pretty clear Barracks -> Fact - >Starport And yes it doesnt bother the terran to put a starport and add a cloak banshee just for a multiprong and long term harass. ;9
On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote: The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships: I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates: Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops - What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck? You are saying that toss should be defensive pvt? Use storm drops? I thought that was common knowledge for anyone diamond +
If it's common knowledge, then why aren't you people doing it rather then bitching about the state of protoss? I am suggesting everybody to experiment rather the copy builds and styles they see MC use. And I said toss should be defensive too because most protosses are aggressive. Who's to say that defense isn't the solution? how about you test it yourself before bickering about how it won't work.
Because what you suggest totally misses the point of the main problem (1/1/1) and aside from that is just terrible.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
Phoenix -,-
Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
oh jinro are you sure it's not only a problem for you? not trying to be badmanner but it seems you were having trouble with stargate opening even with rax units, correct me if Im wrong
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent
Replay of this in a high level game where the 1/1/1 is perfectly executed please.
And er, you focus fire the warp prism with your marines and kill 600 minerals worth of stuff? They're smart enough to not leave their tanks way back in a huge clump then run forward all their marines, then sit there and watch them die to zealots.
No one can perfectly execute anything. Youre assuming the T is a pretty good player and the P is a pretty shitty one, and you want the P player to still win If theyre smart enough to not let you rape them, then you are just dumber than them. If you want a high-level solution, be high-level yourself, maybe then you can find it. The way you talk, no one but successful pros can discuss strategy. And you dont look like a successful pro to me.
...What?
The way I talk is that every high level protoss player loses to this build when executed by a high level terran, which is what happens. No one being able to perfectly execute anything has nothing to do with it, the T being a good player and the P being bad and still winning has nothing to do with it, "if theyre smart enough to not let you rape them" has nothing to do with it...nothing you said has anything to do with anything I said. No high level protoss has held this against a high level terran unless the terran has made a massive mistake like forget siege mode, which would be like me trying to do a colossus timing attack and forgetting colossus range.
So yes, in that case no one but successful pros can discuss the strategy because Johnny Diamond can't say something that sounds smart like "just zealot bomb his tanks" and think that is a viable solution. If there is a solution to this, that works on the level where the terran is smart enough to focus fire, spread his units correctly, etc. then it will not be discovered by some no-name on teamliquid.net theorycrafting about warp prisms.
On August 10 2011 01:27 vizir wrote:
On August 10 2011 01:21 Kaonis wrote:
On August 10 2011 01:16 vizir wrote:
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
wtf are you trying to say? I should commit into 4/5 gate every game vs T now JUST IN CASE he is doing 1-1-1? I'm really starting to lose faith in ppl when reading this thread.
No, looks like he's saying he used to play zerg and that four gate was impossible to deal with, even though it stopped working well against anything but protoss before it got nerfed anyway. So he's basically being cute by saying "hahaha I whined about what you did forever, now I get to watch you whine, isn't this awesome, hohoho" which is extremely helpful.
Oh, so proplayers know the game inside-out, and if they cant deal with a push like 1/1/1 who has been around ever since the beta, then the game is imbalanced? Come on.
1/1/1 consist of marines, tanks, and a banshee. In my scenario, the Raven is irrelevant, since Im not using DTs and stalkers arent the butter here. Zealots rape marines. Zealots rape tanks. Have your stalkers instead of attacking a siege line. If you dont have enough Zealots / Sentries to deal with the marines, you deserve to lose. Banshees cant hit air, so they cant stop the WP. If you cant get the Zealots above the tanks, you can use it to warp stuff outside of your base for a flank. What makes immortals bad against this push is because immortals are bad against marines, but if you can rule them out, then immortals are pretty good against it. Everything you have been saying so far boils down to "no, your strategy wont work. If you a-move and get outplayed this shit is imbalanced, period." Stop acting like an smartass if thats all you can say.
So, do you actually play this game? Just wondering. You think you are going to have +1 armor, charge, enough zealots to go through marines that are stutter step microing (while you still have 4 in the warp prism) and think that somehow the terran can only focus fire a warp prism with banshees.
On August 10 2011 01:56 eourcs wrote:Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit".
By the other thing, you mean like use more Infestors? Yeah, that was so wrooong...
On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote: My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran: In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved. Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg: Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning. The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
lol agreed 100% with you
I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see.
Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". Remember when terran could never beat a 3 base protoss with templar because every time you'd attack everything would get stormed instantly. Protoss said "fuck you idiots, get better at emp". All players are gonna be biased towards their own race.
ok, are we talking about a composition or a all in? seriously we had 200/200 deathball and then infestors get buffed, void ray got nerfed and now we are having MUCH more trouble (look winrate please) and you are telling us nobody is gonna do anything?
On August 10 2011 01:14 Olsson wrote: DT shouldn't get blink that's a retarded suggestion. That's like if mutas could burrow.
Mutas can get away easily DTs cannot, and i think that is why DT harassment is greatly discouraged since its a suicide mission and high cost of that. Besides i said give it blink in terms of energy base, make it like idk 100 each blink so you can only blink in and out once per 200 sec
DTs are great as it stands. Many people just have the wrong idea about them. They think they HAVE to kill tons of works to be beneficial when most of the time they get sick map control and other benefits as well as potential to kill workers
Are you able to suggest any other way to harass the enemy? Cause i don't think there are any viable/effective way to do so with the current units Protoss is given, without investing an abundant of resource, just to be shut down.
You said DTs needed a change, they don't really. They fill their capacities. Protoss doesn't really have a dedicated harassment unit but most races don't either. The real issue is how protoss units in small groups don't really keep the same kind of effectiveness that they have in big groups so you can never really split your army into smaller chunks while remaining effective like a Terran can do. Neither do they have the mobility to harass like Zerg do. Honestly I think warpgate/Sentry has screwed the race slightly.
I think Protoss do have a dedicated harassment unit, which IS DTs however they just do a bad job at it since they cost so much and never make it out. I agree other races don't have a dedicated harassment unit but in my view DT are designed to do this job, in which by comparison are not as effective as those that are just harassment units (not dedicated) Resulting in units such as mutas or banshee vastly superior. And if DT cannot even compare to a non-dedicated harassment unit then what is it doing there? What purpose does it serve? You mentioned Map control which i totally agree upon, but its only temporary since they aren't as mobile, and giving blink in my opinion will give the mobility that a dt needs
On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote: The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory.
Motherships: I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates: Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
What happened to TL ? Last time I checked TL did not allow threads just for the sake of crying imbalance. And here protoss come and give their opinion on what should be changed in order to make them stronger because Protoss suck, apparently.
On August 10 2011 01:51 lee365 wrote: I think the problem is there is no real "Protoss Team". Terran has SlayerS and Zerg has IM to make new strategies and create/exploit timings. The only innovators for Toss are MC and WhiteRa/Huk and there is no Protoss centered team. So solutions and new stuff takes a long time to come out, but it should get there.
sorry but it's not like that ): that's not about players, protoss had a lot of players and is getting lower as the winrate gets lower, you can see GSL the players number, it started in the first one with ~28 protoss from 64 spots, look now how many are still there
a example that comes in mind in byun, was very bad protoss, became terran and now goes ro4 code S
He was not that bad, bleach was in GSL 1 and 2 as protoss. That's pretty good. But yeah he told us why he switched. "terran OP" and he wanted to ride the strong horse.
I admire that. Put his money where his mouth is instead of crying like other pros.
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote: The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
Phoenix -,-
Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
Also free loss against various terran MMM based builds. Phoenix openings rly only work in maps with small enough choke at natural so you can hold it with few forcefields. In maps with open expos phoenix openings are yet another guessing game depending on what T is doing.
Last time I saw MC using Phoenices against 1-1-1 he lost too. Loses against 1 Rax FE into Ghost Push as well.
On August 10 2011 02:02 MandoRelease wrote: What happened to TL ? Last time I checked TL did not allow threads just for the sake of crying imbalance. And here protoss come and give their opinion on what should be change in order to make them stronger because Protoss suck, apparently.
Remember when Zergs were whining ? Hypocrites.
It's more like OP is trying to have a valid discussion, but there isn't really a mid-late game problem but more of an early game problem which no one can theorycraft their way out of, and then you have a bunch of zergs, terrans, and low-league protosses theorycrafting random stuff for no reason.
On August 10 2011 01:56 eourcs wrote:Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit".
By the other thing, you mean like use more Infestors? Yeah, that was so wrooong...
Infestors got buffed... 8second fungal without the buff vs armored wouldn't have done shit.
On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote: My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran: In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved. Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg: Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning. The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
lol agreed 100% with you
I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see.
Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". Remember when terran could never beat a 3 base protoss with templar because every time you'd attack everything would get stormed instantly. Protoss said "fuck you idiots, get better at emp". All players are gonna be biased towards their own race.
ok, are we talking about a composition or a all in? seriously we had 200/200 deathball and then infestors get buffed, void ray got nerfed and now we are having MUCH more trouble (look winrate please) and you are telling us nobody is gonna do anything?
I just think it's stupid that he's saying terrans and zergs just don't undestand how bad protoss have it when protoss players did the exact same thing. I don't get all this discussion about harass units and shit when protoss is fine midgame and very good lategame. The only thing that may be in question is the 1-1-1 allin, but half the discussion in this thread is about stuff unrelated to that.
As for the winrate thing, it's quite a small sample size (i assume you're using the Korea one) and you have to look at the actual games when looking at balance. Win rates are almost meaningless because there's a very large variety of player skills in the GSL, both overall and in specific matchups.
On August 10 2011 01:56 eourcs wrote:Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit".
By the other thing, you mean like use more Infestors? Yeah, that was so wrooong...
Infestors got buffed... 8second fungal without the buff vs armored wouldn't have done shit.
I don't even think that was a buff (lose paralysis duration, gain DPS). I think the real 'buff' was the Zerg players started using Infestors for the 'improved' Fungal, and realized that Infested Terran and Neural Parasite are actually very powerful spells.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do? requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it?
LOL! Now you know how it feels from the Terran end of the things, in T v P mid to late game.
I think it's possible protoss need help, I just want to say that the last "state of the protoss thread" (which should still be findable here) used every same arguments that I read in this thread, and it was before the long era of PvZ dominance and before the less longer era of PvT dominance (which ended the day MC lost to MKP and San to MVP in the world championship with the new builds introduced by both players) History repeating =)
The problem with Protoss is our lack of mobilty and our weakness to silly all-in's from both Z and T. As many people have said in this thread we do NEED a harrass unit that can zip around the map like a zergling or a reaper to get those Scv/Drone kills early on to punish Greedy Terran/ Zerg play. Protoss being Nerfed to hell doesnt help either.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do? requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it?
LOL! Now you know how it feels from the Terran end of the things, in T v P mid to late game.
Because Colossus + Storm is hard...
cause emps aren't ez? i mean it's like feedback for noobs. With it's splash damage you don't even really need to find the ht's to get their energy and half health protoss balls are pretty damn ez to kill
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do? requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it?
LOL! Now you know how it feels from the Terran end of the things, in T v P mid to late game.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do? requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it?
LOL! Now you know how it feels from the Terran end of the things, in T v P mid to late game.
Because Colossus + Storm is hard...
Wrong. PHD proven.
Like I said ... decision trees. Draw them out ... yes, we know it's 2^n for each of the action. But it has always been other races whining while Protoss has been getting weaker and weaker.
8 Second Fungal technically is stronger than 4 Second Fungal (Since, it just lets you buy even more time), unless you're trying not to make your openings.
What 98% of players lack is the understanding of decision trees in creating games like these ... Protoss has been weak, and there are limitations to Protoss abilities. The only reason Protoss seemed overpowered was because other races failed to find new strats.
For Protoss, the decision tree is *extremely* slim. Slowest tech switches, you can be sure that "new" strategies have usually been thought out. Right now, the most viable strategy to 1 Barrack FE is WhiteRa's double expo into Speshul Tactics. But that's about it ...
Protoss needs to be *buffed* now, as they are the weakest of the 3 races.
Anyone who says otherwise, please state your assumptions and your decision trees.
On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote: My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran: In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved. Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg: Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning. The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
lol agreed 100% with you
I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see.
Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". Remember when terran could never beat a 3 base protoss with templar because every time you'd attack everything would get stormed instantly. Protoss said "fuck you idiots, get better at emp". All players are gonna be biased towards their own race.
ok, are we talking about a composition or a all in? seriously we had 200/200 deathball and then infestors get buffed, void ray got nerfed and now we are having MUCH more trouble (look winrate please) and you are telling us nobody is gonna do anything?
I just think it's stupid that he's saying terrans and zergs just don't undestand how bad protoss have it when protoss players did the exact same thing. I don't get all this discussion about harass units and shit when protoss is fine midgame and very good lategame. The only thing that may be in question is the 1-1-1 allin, but half the discussion in this thread is about stuff unrelated to that.
As for the winrate thing, it's quite a small sample size (i assume you're using the Korea one) and you have to look at the actual games when looking at balance. Win rates are almost meaningless because there's a very large variety of player skills in the GSL, both overall and in specific matchups.
What we need is for hallucination to be better, so that sentries aren't an absolutely awful investment in scenarios where FF isn't the answer. I hope what happens is lower tier units like hallucinated zealot/stalker/etc. are free without the upgrade, and the uprgrade lets you get the better stuff like the phoenix. Also hoping the mana cost of hallucinate gets cut by a lot or simply put on a cooldown, mana free.
I think that we need to use phoenix much much more. Phoenix, Blink Stalkers, and possibly make it a priority to zealot drop if we're forced to get robo and then switch it up to dark templar drops.
Overall, the toss race isn't about harassment as much as other races. It's about defending harassment so we can get our death army up.
On August 10 2011 02:12 MrCon wrote: I think it's possible protoss need help, I just want to say that the last "state of the protoss thread" (which should still be findable here) used every same arguments that I read in this thread, and it was before the long era of PvZ dominance and before the less longer era of PvT dominance (which ended the day MC lost to MKP and San to MVP in the world championship with the new builds introduced by both players) History repeating =)
If anything, I think this can only be compared to Terran going mass Reapers almost every game against Zerg, which there was no answer to.
On August 10 2011 02:17 Chvol wrote: What we need is for hallucination to be better, so that sentries aren't an absolutely awful investment in scenarios where FF isn't the answer. I hope what happens is lower tier units like hallucinated zealot/stalker/etc. are free without the upgrade, and the uprgrade lets you get the better stuff like the phoenix. Also hoping the mana cost of hallucinate gets cut by a lot or simply put on a cooldown, mana free.
You gotta be joking me, this would make sentrys way imba early-game before terrans/zergs get detection... just do a 4gate push with extra hallucinated units.
I think Protoss is for the most part fine... the PvZ is a bit off, but the matchup goes through fluctuations (recently Zergs were dying to the Toss Deathball). I'd say wait it out a bit.
PvT I think is a little T favoured because of the marine/banshee/tank all-in. I think the main problem in this matchup is that you need robo tech to counter cloakshee... if there was another way to do it the matchup would be fine.
Ironically the statistics seem to show that overall (not just July) ZvT is the most imbalanced matchup...
On August 10 2011 01:55 Joseph123 wrote: well I didnt read the whole thread but for me there is one big problem that destroys PvT CLOAK BANSHEE You have to go robo unless there is a clear indication he isn't going to do that This totally destroys the matchup and robo tech is fuckin bad at least as an opener..
On August 09 2011 23:49 KevinIX wrote: I think people are underestimating the power of Stargate tech. MC was right, Phoenix and Void Rays need to be incorporated more for harassment. They *are* good at harassing.
I'll be honest, I've been having trouble PvT and PvZ, but I really hate the word "imba". One month of tournament losses is insignificant. Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.
Warp Prism harass is a joke though. I don't see that going anywhere. Carriers are good v Terran Mech, but who the heck goes mech v Protoss these days. Half the Protoss race is basically the counter to mech...chargelots, HT, void rays, phoenix, immortals, dark templar...
You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires.
Would MC go Phoenix vs Puma if he were joking? Phoenix are legitimate units. They deter drops, protect colossi, and can be used to put pressure on the opponent. I'm not saying overcommit to Phoenix, because they aren't that great in a head-on fight. But 4 or 5 phoenix gives you map control, opportunity to harass the mineral line, easy scouting, and forces your opponent to skew toward marines. Phoenix into Colossus transitions quite well.
Also, Phoenixes and Void Rays do not take "insane amounts of APM". O.o
On August 09 2011 23:49 KevinIX wrote: I think people are underestimating the power of Stargate tech. MC was right, Phoenix and Void Rays need to be incorporated more for harassment. They *are* good at harassing.
I'll be honest, I've been having trouble PvT and PvZ, but I really hate the word "imba". One month of tournament losses is insignificant. Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.
Warp Prism harass is a joke though. I don't see that going anywhere. Carriers are good v Terran Mech, but who the heck goes mech v Protoss these days. Half the Protoss race is basically the counter to mech...chargelots, HT, void rays, phoenix, immortals, dark templar...
You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires.
Would MC go Phoenix vs Puma if he were joking? Phoenix are legitimate units. They deter drops, protect colossi, and can be used to put pressure on the opponent. I'm not saying overcommit to Phoenix, because they aren't that great in a head-on fight. But 4 or 5 phoenix gives you map control, opportunity to harass the mineral line, easy scouting, and forces your opponent to skew toward marines. Phoenix into Colossus transitions quite well.
Pheonixes are really good, they just require a lot of awareness. Even MC still let drops get through which pretty much screwed him. Ideally, with pheonixes, you are drop proof.
On August 10 2011 01:55 Joseph123 wrote: well I didnt read the whole thread but for me there is one big problem that destroys PvT CLOAK BANSHEE You have to go robo unless there is a clear indication he isn't going to do that This totally destroys the matchup and robo tech is fuckin bad at least as an opener..
On August 10 2011 01:55 Joseph123 wrote: well I didnt read the whole thread but for me there is one big problem that destroys PvT CLOAK BANSHEE You have to go robo unless there is a clear indication he isn't going to do that This totally destroys the matchup and robo tech is fuckin bad at least as an opener..
steal a gas from the terran
Cruncher does that all the time now, I don't know why Korean Protosses don't.
I guess the problem is if you steal a gas and the Terran player goes a one-gas build you've essentially wasted 75 minerals...
On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote: My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran: In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved. Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg: Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning. The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
lol agreed 100% with you
I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see.
Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". Remember when terran could never beat a 3 base protoss with templar because every time you'd attack everything would get stormed instantly. Protoss said "fuck you idiots, get better at emp". All players are gonna be biased towards their own race.
Except all this Z and T whining consequently led to a patch change, namely the infestor buff and the KA removal. You can't just say that suddenly, Zerg and Terran super-gifted-not-like-those-dumb-protoss players figured it out with new innovative strats.
On August 10 2011 01:41 Jesushooves wrote: Why doesn't everyone just go the practice partner thread, ask for a terran practice partner - and tell him to do the 1/1/1 against you until you figure out a way to stop it?
As of right now people just bitch and moan about it like it is impossible to stop because fucking MC hasn't done some miracle build against it yet.
Better yet try playing terran, playing the race you have trouble with often gives good insight into their weaknesses. Many protoss I encounter that try and say Terran is easy I challenge them to a pvt where I will play p and they will play T, typical response is " i don't know how to play t" the few that do accept usually get owned and say "well its because I dont know how to play t" ignoring the fact that I do not play P extensively either. It often shows they don't understand the race they are playing against at even a rough level.
This is true of most people that only play one race as it leads to bias from their ignorance. Most people that haven't played T to high masters level don't realize it's not as easy as they think. (In fact most zergs I've met that have tried playing T admit it's much more micro intensive / difficult for them compared to Z. This is my own personal experience as well after playing z from plat to masters to understand their race better as i was having troubles tvz)
Many people here are acting as if they are the protoss in GSL and are playing MVP or other incredibly strong terrans when the majority are probably diamond and below and it's hardly balance that's holding them back. Even at masters theres plenty of room for improvement to where you can win just based on better macro.
If you want to discuss how protoss at tournament level in korea are currently weak thats fine(I'd actually agree) but these people using that to rationalize why they are still in gold league or losing on NA ladder are a joke. Try playing random and getting perspective on all the races to improve your game.
For people looking for ways to make it easier to hold off 1-1-1. do a gas steal combined with quick stalker pressure at front and this will mess up a lot of T's timings. It also gives more time for you to hold if he decides to commit to the build / it will be obvious he is going for it if hes trying to get 2nd gas early.(yes im aware its a incredibly hard build to stop) This goes back to my earlier point of the importance of understanding the terran's build.
On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote: Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it. My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better. Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering.
White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post.
White Ra's special tactics almost always fail.
And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.
My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much.
Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it
"Wins do not equal to provenskill." So that means tournements and GSLs are useless in terms of proving skill because all they do is "give wins"?Your retarded. White-ra I <3 whitera but he is not one of the best. I watch his play, hes EXTREMELY greedy, he takes bases way faster than a protoss should(even casters say it: omg whiteras taking a super fast 2nd!), against passive foreigner oponents this may work sometimes but against agressive koreans this fails every time.What top korean has whitera lately beat? NO ONE. I agree innovation is important, but that is not everything. Players like MVP rely on super super solid play to beat their opponents. And how can you say MC has no innovation skill? He is the one that has been pushing the protoss metagame, most protosses analyze him to get better (example he refined the phoenix opening vs zerg.) Also MC is not in Code B hes in the up and down between Code A and Code S. Meanwhile where is whitera? Dumb fucktard.
Sigh, I think reading this thread depresses me even more than watching GSL. I should probably stop. The amount of absolutely retarded suggestions just makes my head hurt (Terran advice on holding the 1/1/1 taking the gold definitely).
There is one thing I want to address. It's been stated repeatedly that Protoss players just don't innovate enough, as opposed to Zerg and Terran players, who are simply ahead in strategy development.
Now, I can definitely agree that Zergs have worked hard for their ZvP successes. They found a variety of styles and strategies that work just fine against the Protoss deathball, deal with Protoss timing attacks, and nullify Protoss openings. Ling/Baneling with double upgrades, Infestors, Baneling drops in general, the IM 200/200 Roach push, fast Hive after Infestor openings; constant ling counter attacks, big drops with expendable units, even base trades (Darkforce used to win a ton of ZvPs by maxing out on Roach/Hydra, getting drop, and then just basetrading and expanding everywhere). They were in a bit of a tough spot (which wasn't even that bad stats-wise), so they went back to the drawing board and came up with some really sexy stuff. Of course, this was accompanied by huge amounts of whining, but eh, what can you do.
However, where in the world is the Terran innovation in TvP? What exactly do Terrans do right now, that they haven't been doing back when the game was released? They figured out that getting Ghosts earlier can be good, but aside from that? Go watch Select play at MLG D.C, is his play so much different than what Terrans do nowadays? I just don't see it at all. There are some Terran players trying new things out, in particular Thorzain does a lot of funky stuff in TvP, which is often much more effective than you would expect (like his mass ghosts, or the infamous Thor/Hellion push). But in general, Terran players are doing the same shit they've always been doing, just executing it better.
Protoss on the other hand, have definitely innovated more in their PvT. MC alone popularized like 3 new builds during his run in GSL3, and then we had Double Forge upgrade rushes with slow tech, San's mass expand with Zealot/Templar style (you were so cool, Khaydarin Amulet ), Phoenix/Colossus, the recent surge of 2 base Zealot/Archon in the midgame, and if you watch Select vs MC on Crevasse during the NASL finals, you'll see MC smash face with Chargelot/Phoenix/HT. Similarly, new PvZ strategies are constantly appearing, the most recent one being the NSHS Zealot/Phoenix harass after an FFE.
I really can't see how Protoss players aren't innovating. You can point at the Warp Prism, and it is indeed somewhat underused, but Protosses have changed their play plenty since the release of SC2. Terrans, on the other hand, have arguably only adapted to Protoss innovation. Indeed, why would you change anything in your play, when it works just fine the way it is? Look at how much they whine when Broodlord/Infestor forces them to do something different in ZvT lategame.
On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote: I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community.
There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do? requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it?
LOL! Now you know how it feels from the Terran end of the things, in T v P mid to late game.
Because Colossus + Storm is hard...
Wrong. PHD proven.
Like I said ... decision trees. Draw them out ... yes, we know it's 2^n for each of the action. But it has always been other races whining while Protoss has been getting weaker and weaker.
8 Second Fungal technically is stronger than 4 Second Fungal (Since, it just lets you buy even more time), unless you're trying not to make your openings.
What 98% of players lack is the understanding of decision trees in creating games like these ... Protoss has been weak, and there are limitations to Protoss abilities. The only reason Protoss seemed overpowered was because other races failed to find new strats.
For Protoss, the decision tree is *extremely* slim. Slowest tech switches, you can be sure that "new" strategies have usually been thought out. Right now, the most viable strategy to 1 Barrack FE is WhiteRa's double expo into Speshul Tactics. But that's about it ...
Protoss needs to be *buffed* now, as they are the weakest of the 3 races.
Anyone who says otherwise, please state your assumptions and your decision trees.
All of you need to shut the fuck up. Protoss might not be as "complete" as terran but it's damn the best race. Make units anywhere on the map, most supply efficient, storm, dt, feedback, forcefield, colossi, blink and CHRONO and the most powerful cheese in the game cannon rush. You are so retarded zerg spent 5 months figuring out ZvP and we couldn't simply because it WAS broken. If you cant figure this out in 5 months then I might agree but now youre whining after a protoss that isn't in form anymore lost to this.
MC dies to beta build 1 base medivac timing and suddenly emp is OP toss needs KA and basically whole race is useless LOL this forum more and more reminds me of bnet forums, sad ...
On August 10 2011 02:35 Olsson wrote: All of you need to shut the fuck up. Protoss might not be as "complete" as terran but it's damn the best race. Make units anywhere on the map, most supply efficient, storm, dt, feedback, forcefield, colossi, blink and CHRONO and the most powerful cheese in the game cannon rush. You are so retarded zerg spent 5 months figuring out ZvP and we couldn't simply because it WAS broken. If you cant figure this out in 5 months then I might agree but now youre whining after a protoss that isn't in form anymore lost to this.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CPVub.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png)
It's also not just this one occasion, but several forms of T all ins have literally worked in 90% of situations against P. Esp the 1-1-1 banshee, tank, marine, marauder.
