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On August 10 2011 02:02 MandoRelease wrote:
What happened to TL ? Last time I checked TL did not allow threads just for the sake of crying imbalance. And here protoss come and give their opinion on what should be change in order to make them stronger because Protoss suck, apparently.
Remember when Zergs were whining ? Hypocrites.
It's more like OP is trying to have a valid discussion, but there isn't really a mid-late game problem but more of an early game problem which no one can theorycraft their way out of, and then you have a bunch of zergs, terrans, and low-league protosses theorycrafting random stuff for no reason.
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On August 10 2011 02:01 Vardant wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:56 eourcs wrote:Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". By the other thing, you mean like use more Infestors? Yeah, that was so wrooong...
Infestors got buffed... 8second fungal without the buff vs armored wouldn't have done shit.
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On August 10 2011 02:04 shadowboxer wrote:
This is a collective of the dumbest minds the protoss race has to offer.
Thanks for the constructive, useful post.
Jinro, when people open phoenix, when do they take their expo? how soon do they reveal phoenix? thoughts?
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On August 10 2011 02:01 Akhee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:56 eourcs wrote:On August 10 2011 01:49 Crying wrote:On August 10 2011 01:48 Akhee wrote:On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote:
My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran:
In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved.
Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg:
Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning.
The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies. lol agreed 100% with you I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see. Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". Remember when terran could never beat a 3 base protoss with templar because every time you'd attack everything would get stormed instantly. Protoss said "fuck you idiots, get better at emp". All players are gonna be biased towards their own race. ok, are we talking about a composition or a all in? seriously we had 200/200 deathball and then infestors get buffed, void ray got nerfed and now we are having MUCH more trouble (look winrate please) and you are telling us nobody is gonna do anything?
I just think it's stupid that he's saying terrans and zergs just don't undestand how bad protoss have it when protoss players did the exact same thing. I don't get all this discussion about harass units and shit when protoss is fine midgame and very good lategame. The only thing that may be in question is the 1-1-1 allin, but half the discussion in this thread is about stuff unrelated to that.
As for the winrate thing, it's quite a small sample size (i assume you're using the Korea one) and you have to look at the actual games when looking at balance. Win rates are almost meaningless because there's a very large variety of player skills in the GSL, both overall and in specific matchups.
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On August 10 2011 02:06 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 02:01 Vardant wrote:On August 10 2011 01:56 eourcs wrote:Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". By the other thing, you mean like use more Infestors? Yeah, that was so wrooong... Infestors got buffed... 8second fungal without the buff vs armored wouldn't have done shit.
I don't even think that was a buff (lose paralysis duration, gain DPS). I think the real 'buff' was the Zerg players started using Infestors for the 'improved' Fungal, and realized that Infested Terran and Neural Parasite are actually very powerful spells.
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On August 10 2011 01:16 vizir wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote:
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community. There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once?
easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do? requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it?
LOL! Now you know how it feels from the Terran end of the things, in T v P mid to late game.
Because Colossus + Storm is hard...
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I think it's possible protoss need help, I just want to say that the last "state of the protoss thread" (which should still be findable here) used every same arguments that I read in this thread, and it was before the long era of PvZ dominance and before the less longer era of PvT dominance (which ended the day MC lost to MKP and San to MVP in the world championship with the new builds introduced by both players)
History repeating =)
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The problem with Protoss is our lack of mobilty and our weakness to silly all-in's from both Z and T. As many people have said in this thread we do NEED a harrass unit that can zip around the map like a zergling or a reaper to get those Scv/Drone kills early on to punish Greedy Terran/ Zerg play. Protoss being Nerfed to hell doesnt help either.
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On August 10 2011 02:10 brobear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:16 vizir wrote:On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote:
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community. There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once? easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do? requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it? LOL! Now you know how it feels from the Terran end of the things, in T v P mid to late game. Because Colossus + Storm is hard...
cause emps aren't ez? i mean it's like feedback for noobs. With it's splash damage you don't even really need to find the ht's to get their energy and half health protoss balls are pretty damn ez to kill
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On August 10 2011 02:10 brobear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:16 vizir wrote:On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote:
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community. There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once? easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do? requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it? LOL! Now you know how it feels from the Terran end of the things, in T v P mid to late game. Because Colossus + Storm is hard...
Because pressing T and dropping mules is hard.
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On August 10 2011 02:10 brobear wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:16 vizir wrote:On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote:
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community. There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once? easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do? requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it? LOL! Now you know how it feels from the Terran end of the things, in T v P mid to late game. Because Colossus + Storm is hard...
Wrong. PHD proven.
Like I said ... decision trees. Draw them out ... yes, we know it's 2^n for each of the action. But it has always been other races whining while Protoss has been getting weaker and weaker.
8 Second Fungal technically is stronger than 4 Second Fungal (Since, it just lets you buy even more time), unless you're trying not to make your openings.
What 98% of players lack is the understanding of decision trees in creating games like these ... Protoss has been weak, and there are limitations to Protoss abilities. The only reason Protoss seemed overpowered was because other races failed to find new strats.
For Protoss, the decision tree is *extremely* slim. Slowest tech switches, you can be sure that "new" strategies have usually been thought out. Right now, the most viable strategy to 1 Barrack FE is WhiteRa's double expo into Speshul Tactics. But that's about it ...
Protoss needs to be *buffed* now, as they are the weakest of the 3 races.
Anyone who says otherwise, please state your assumptions and your decision trees.
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On August 10 2011 02:08 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 02:01 Akhee wrote:On August 10 2011 01:56 eourcs wrote:On August 10 2011 01:49 Crying wrote:On August 10 2011 01:48 Akhee wrote:On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote:
My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran:
In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved.
Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg:
Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning.
The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies. lol agreed 100% with you I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see. Protosses did the exact same thing when the Protoss 200/200 a-move deathball was prevalent. Protoss just said "fuck you use nydus and other dumb shit". Remember when terran could never beat a 3 base protoss with templar because every time you'd attack everything would get stormed instantly. Protoss said "fuck you idiots, get better at emp". All players are gonna be biased towards their own race. ok, are we talking about a composition or a all in? seriously we had 200/200 deathball and then infestors get buffed, void ray got nerfed and now we are having MUCH more trouble (look winrate please) and you are telling us nobody is gonna do anything? I just think it's stupid that he's saying terrans and zergs just don't undestand how bad protoss have it when protoss players did the exact same thing. I don't get all this discussion about harass units and shit when protoss is fine midgame and very good lategame. The only thing that may be in question is the 1-1-1 allin, but half the discussion in this thread is about stuff unrelated to that. As for the winrate thing, it's quite a small sample size (i assume you're using the Korea one) and you have to look at the actual games when looking at balance. Win rates are almost meaningless because there's a very large variety of player skills in the GSL, both overall and in specific matchups.
so protoss is fine midgame?
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What we need is for hallucination to be better, so that sentries aren't an absolutely awful investment in scenarios where FF isn't the answer. I hope what happens is lower tier units like hallucinated zealot/stalker/etc. are free without the upgrade, and the uprgrade lets you get the better stuff like the phoenix. Also hoping the mana cost of hallucinate gets cut by a lot or simply put on a cooldown, mana free.
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I think that we need to use phoenix much much more. Phoenix, Blink Stalkers, and possibly make it a priority to zealot drop if we're forced to get robo and then switch it up to dark templar drops.
Overall, the toss race isn't about harassment as much as other races. It's about defending harassment so we can get our death army up.
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On August 10 2011 02:12 MrCon wrote:
I think it's possible protoss need help, I just want to say that the last "state of the protoss thread" (which should still be findable here) used every same arguments that I read in this thread, and it was before the long era of PvZ dominance and before the less longer era of PvT dominance (which ended the day MC lost to MKP and San to MVP in the world championship with the new builds introduced by both players)
History repeating =)
If anything, I think this can only be compared to Terran going mass Reapers almost every game against Zerg, which there was no answer to.
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On August 10 2011 02:17 Chvol wrote:
What we need is for hallucination to be better, so that sentries aren't an absolutely awful investment in scenarios where FF isn't the answer. I hope what happens is lower tier units like hallucinated zealot/stalker/etc. are free without the upgrade, and the uprgrade lets you get the better stuff like the phoenix. Also hoping the mana cost of hallucinate gets cut by a lot or simply put on a cooldown, mana free.
You gotta be joking me, this would make sentrys way imba early-game before terrans/zergs get detection... just do a 4gate push with extra hallucinated units.
I think Protoss is for the most part fine... the PvZ is a bit off, but the matchup goes through fluctuations (recently Zergs were dying to the Toss Deathball). I'd say wait it out a bit.
PvT I think is a little T favoured because of the marine/banshee/tank all-in. I think the main problem in this matchup is that you need robo tech to counter cloakshee... if there was another way to do it the matchup would be fine.
Ironically the statistics seem to show that overall (not just July) ZvT is the most imbalanced matchup...
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On August 10 2011 01:55 Joseph123 wrote:
well I didnt read the whole thread but for me there is one big problem that destroys PvT
CLOAK BANSHEE
You have to go robo unless there is a clear indication he isn't going to do that
This totally destroys the matchup and robo tech is fuckin bad at least as an opener..
steal a gas from the terran
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On August 09 2011 23:53 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:49 KevinIX wrote:
I think people are underestimating the power of Stargate tech. MC was right, Phoenix and Void Rays need to be incorporated more for harassment. They *are* good at harassing.
I'll be honest, I've been having trouble PvT and PvZ, but I really hate the word "imba". One month of tournament losses is insignificant. Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.
Warp Prism harass is a joke though. I don't see that going anywhere. Carriers are good v Terran Mech, but who the heck goes mech v Protoss these days. Half the Protoss race is basically the counter to mech...chargelots, HT, void rays, phoenix, immortals, dark templar... You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires.
Would MC go Phoenix vs Puma if he were joking? Phoenix are legitimate units. They deter drops, protect colossi, and can be used to put pressure on the opponent. I'm not saying overcommit to Phoenix, because they aren't that great in a head-on fight. But 4 or 5 phoenix gives you map control, opportunity to harass the mineral line, easy scouting, and forces your opponent to skew toward marines. Phoenix into Colossus transitions quite well.
Also, Phoenixes and Void Rays do not take "insane amounts of APM". O.o
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It's Starcraft 1 all over again T_T. Hated being a Protoss fan. Only player I ever got to cheer for was Bisu and Stork.
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On August 10 2011 02:22 KevinIX wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:53 Fig wrote:On August 09 2011 23:49 KevinIX wrote:
I think people are underestimating the power of Stargate tech. MC was right, Phoenix and Void Rays need to be incorporated more for harassment. They *are* good at harassing.
I'll be honest, I've been having trouble PvT and PvZ, but I really hate the word "imba". One month of tournament losses is insignificant. Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.
Warp Prism harass is a joke though. I don't see that going anywhere. Carriers are good v Terran Mech, but who the heck goes mech v Protoss these days. Half the Protoss race is basically the counter to mech...chargelots, HT, void rays, phoenix, immortals, dark templar... You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires. Would MC go Phoenix vs Puma if he were joking? Phoenix are legitimate units. They deter drops, protect colossi, and can be used to put pressure on the opponent. I'm not saying overcommit to Phoenix, because they aren't that great in a head-on fight. But 4 or 5 phoenix gives you map control, opportunity to harass the mineral line, easy scouting, and forces your opponent to skew toward marines. Phoenix into Colossus transitions quite well.
Pheonixes are really good, they just require a lot of awareness. Even MC still let drops get through which pretty much screwed him. Ideally, with pheonixes, you are drop proof.
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EPT
