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On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships:
I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates:
Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops -
What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck? You are saying that toss should be defensive pvt? Use storm drops? I thought that was common knowledge for anyone diamond +
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On August 10 2011 01:38 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:31 Shiori wrote:On August 10 2011 01:29 Jesushooves wrote:On August 10 2011 01:16 vizir wrote:On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote:
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community. There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once? It isn't a big deal, terran has an allin and protoss are having trouble stopping it. It's not like the 1/1/1 involves terran just a-moving tanks marines and banshees - you have to position your tanks right and micro your banshees during harass, not every plat level player can do this. I could argue 4gate 7 stalker push requires far less skill, but just as deadly. I don't think I magically solved all your 1/1/1 problems - just like if you said to me while having trouble holding 3gate void - just make bunkers dude - you wouldn't solve it, it is still hard to hold, but that's how you stop it. 3gate stargate isn't even close to being on the same level as a 1-1-1 allin Yea, 3 gate stargate is easier to pull off. I've been seeing that crap for months in TvP at all levels. That's the only reason 1-1-1 allin is so effective, because it hasn't been popular for very long.
It's been popular for ages, it just hasn't been "do it every fucking game" popular.
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On August 10 2011 01:44 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Why are you talking about a different game? They didnt figure anything out. Rather they just won't die today to a VR sitting in their FE doing 40 DPS. They won't die to a 4 gate punishing a 1/1/1 because it does not exist ANYMORE. Different game. Give us our unnerfed warpgates unnerfed voidrays and unnerfed hts... then we will see how much they "figured out"
It is the same game and protoss have been doing the same strategies over and over which is why Terran is now in a comfortable lead.
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On August 10 2011 01:44 gustavohmp wrote:
Oh, so proplayers know the game inside-out, and if they cant deal with a push like 1/1/1 who has been around ever since the beta, then the game is imbalanced? Come on.
VR speed upgrade removed, KA removed, WG research nerfed twice...still wonder why an old build has no answer now?
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On August 10 2011 01:43 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships:
I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates:
Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops -
What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck. Do you even play this game? At least read the thread, just about every single one of your points was already responded to. You are correct though that game balance doesn't effect 99% of us playing but how about us watching it? We don't like seeing every single protoss get 1-1-1 out of GSL.
People are not only complaining about 1-1-1. They act like protoss is the worst race, period.
What comes to watching games, just look at recent foreigner tournaments: protoss won dreamhack, top3 at HSC3 were protoss, and protoss also got 2nd place at both Assembly and Blizz EU invitational last weekend. In foreigner tournaments protoss is doing very good. Luckily for us, these tournaments exist and GSL with its all-ins isnt everything.
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On August 10 2011 01:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) Phoenix -,- Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
Jinro explain us what kills you when u make 1,1,1?
Im gonna say again HuK had one night on the korean ladder awhile ago when he had 7-8games vs a T player that 1,1,1ed him every game and HuK lost all of them except for 2 i think when he just 4gated blink him and won before the initial push
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On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote:
My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran:
In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved.
Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg:
Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning.
The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
This has a lot to do with how the tech tree is laid out for Protoss. It's not "deep", in that you can get to the "highest tier" units very fast. Protoss can get to Colossi/HT/DT faster than a Thor or BC, and waaay faster than Ultralisk or Brood Lord.
With that in mind, there really isn't anywhere more to go past a certain point in the game. Protoss reaches their endgame much faster than either other race, the only thing holding them back is cost and production facilities. Zerg is constantly working toward Lair tech in the early game, then Hive tech comes out on ~4 bases. Terran can go 111, but then they're down on units. Protoss can get Colossi on one base and have a decent Gateway force to supplement it, and have Archons en masse on 2 bases.
There really isn't more to explore when you've had time to look in every nook and cranny. I think what Protoss needs to do now is to look into compositions more than anything. Warp Prism drops with Phoenix/Void Ray support, maybe?
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On August 10 2011 01:47 Xahhk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships:
I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates:
Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops -
What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck? You are saying that toss should be defensive pvt? Use storm drops? I thought that was common knowledge for anyone diamond +
If it's common knowledge, then why aren't you people doing it rather then bitching about the state of protoss? I am suggesting everybody to experiment rather the copy builds and styles they see MC use. And I said toss should be defensive too because most protosses are aggressive. Who's to say that defense isn't the solution? how about you test it yourself before bickering about how it won't work.
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On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote:
My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran:
In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved.
Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg:
Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning.
The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
lol agreed 100% with you
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On August 10 2011 01:48 Akhee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote:
My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran:
In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved.
Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg:
Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning.
The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies. lol agreed 100% with you
I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right.
They just havent played protoss i see.
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I think the problem is there is no real "Protoss Team". Terran has SlayerS and Zerg has IM to make new strategies and create/exploit timings. The only innovators for Toss are MC and WhiteRa/Huk and there is no Protoss centered team. So solutions and new stuff takes a long time to come out, but it should get there.
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Game balance does actually affect all brackets unlike popular belief.
At lower skill levels, while the protoss may not have the best control of his units to defend an all-in, the person executing the all-in may not have the tightest build order and his push may not be on par with what we see in pro games.
Some people in the thread suggest a buff to carriers. I hope they are just trolling, as protoss is struggling early game and not that much in late game.
This is one thing I really hate about sc2: its starting to become a game of "who has the stronger all-in to kill the other guy".
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Anyway MC asked for that ... arrogant little shit ;p
made my morning that did.
I think the game has shifted recently anyway with zergs mixing up their game, which has caused terran to mix up theirs.
as someone already said protoss have very few options since the ht nerf.
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On August 10 2011 01:51 lee365 wrote:
I think the problem is there is no real "Protoss Team". Terran has SlayerS and Zerg has IM to make new strategies and create/exploit timings. The only innovators for Toss are MC and WhiteRa/Huk and there is no Protoss centered team. So solutions and new stuff takes a long time to come out, but it should get there.
That is what I said. The less protoss players, the longer the solution.
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On August 10 2011 01:49 Crying wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:48 Akhee wrote:On August 10 2011 01:40 Giku wrote:
My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran:
In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved.
Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg:
Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning.
The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies. lol agreed 100% with you I agree too and im trying to explain that to a Terran or Zerg, and they just say,fuck you u arent right. They just havent played protoss i see.
haha very common, people still don't realize how difficult to play protoss it is
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On August 10 2011 01:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) Phoenix -,- Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
Also free loss against various terran MMM based builds. Phoenix openings rly only work in maps with small enough choke at natural so you can hold it with few forcefields. In maps with open expos phoenix openings are yet another guessing game depending on what T is doing.
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On August 10 2011 01:52 MrTortoise wrote:
Anyway MC asked for that ... arrogant little shit ;p
made my morning that did.
Flaming and Bashing players is not ALLOWED IN MY THREAD
Please follow the rules
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On August 10 2011 01:48 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:47 Xahhk wrote:On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships:
I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates:
Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops -
What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck? You are saying that toss should be defensive pvt? Use storm drops? I thought that was common knowledge for anyone diamond + If it's common knowledge, then why aren't you people doing it rather then bitching about the state of protoss? I am suggesting everybody to experiment rather the copy builds and styles they see MC use. And I said toss should be defensive too because most protosses are aggressive. Who's to say that defense isn't the solution? how about you test it yourself before bickering about how it won't work.
Anyone diamond+ and is not misinformed does it. But I see that I shouldn't even have made my initial post anyway since he was probably responding to some bronze protoss.
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On August 10 2011 01:51 lee365 wrote:
I think the problem is there is no real "Protoss Team". Terran has SlayerS and Zerg has IM to make new strategies and create/exploit timings. The only innovators for Toss are MC and WhiteRa/Huk and there is no Protoss centered team. So solutions and new stuff takes a long time to come out, but it should get there.
sorry but it's not like that ):
that's not about players, protoss had a lot of players and is getting lower as the winrate gets lower, you can see GSL the players number, it started in the first one with ~28 protoss from 64 spots, look now how many are still there
a example that comes in mind in byun, was very bad protoss, became terran and now goes ro4 code S
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I am definitely looking forward for a Protoss buff real soon
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EPT
