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Why are people suggesting phoenixes versus 1-1-1 as some kind of miracle solution no one has ever thought of? In close air position you could get lucky and snipe a banshee before cloak finishes, but how bout cross?
The 1-1-1 attack comprises of 20-30 marines what are phoenix going to do against that?
I'm not saying 1-1-1 is unstoppable, the guides on the strategy forum are pretty much spot on.
Also, what is with some of these whines with roach/ling owning 3 gate expand? How is that even worth talking about anymore? As long as you build a forge and pylon as the beginning of your lowground wall off before nexus, and make atleast one cannon you can defend with forcefields. You can even 1 or 2 gate expand to start your wall off quicker. There are also multiple solutions to scouting whether or not you even need the cannon, from chronoing hallucination along the attack path, using 2 zealots, and if your opponent doesn't scout for probes, sending in your probe at around 7ish minutes to see what's up.
Also carrier harass and collossi drop posts should warrant a ban.
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The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships:
I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates:
Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops -
What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
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On August 09 2011 23:10 Zaros wrote:
Well the comman consensus is that protoss needs a unit that can harrass otherwise the protoss has to play almost perfectly to not fall behind against the other races as it is hard to get ahead without such a harrass unit.
I hate to be the same kind of n00b that says "use nydus worms!" but I NEVER see toss use warp prisms a whole lot, except for HuK.
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On August 10 2011 01:31 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:29 Jesushooves wrote:On August 10 2011 01:16 vizir wrote:On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote:
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community. There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once? It isn't a big deal, terran has an allin and protoss are having trouble stopping it. It's not like the 1/1/1 involves terran just a-moving tanks marines and banshees - you have to position your tanks right and micro your banshees during harass, not every plat level player can do this. I could argue 4gate 7 stalker push requires far less skill, but just as deadly. I don't think I magically solved all your 1/1/1 problems - just like if you said to me while having trouble holding 3gate void - just make bunkers dude - you wouldn't solve it, it is still hard to hold, but that's how you stop it. 3gate stargate isn't even close to being on the same level as a 1-1-1 allin
Yea, 3 gate stargate is easier to pull off. I've been seeing that crap for months in TvP at all levels. That's the only reason 1-1-1 allin is so effective, because it hasn't been popular for very long.
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Personally, I'm on the bandwagon that protoss players are just having a bad day, and will catch up when someone figures something out. Remember how impossible ZvP seemed for the zerg? Sure there was an infestor change but the real contributing factor to zergs coming back was team IM creating these new strategies, tricks and even mindsets when facing protoss, and that's what led to the IM vs IM finals. I don't really remember the last time I saw a protoss player that left the impression: "Holy shit! This guy is amazing!", if feels like they've stopped innovating in a productive direction and now they're paying for it.
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On August 10 2011 01:33 ClueLessx3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:21 Numy wrote:On August 10 2011 01:17 ClueLessx3 wrote:On August 10 2011 01:14 Olsson wrote:
DT shouldn't get blink that's a retarded suggestion. That's like if mutas could burrow. Mutas can get away easily DTs cannot, and i think that is why DT harassment is greatly discouraged since its a suicide mission and high cost of that. Besides i said give it blink in terms of energy base, make it like idk 100 each blink so you can only blink in and out once per 200 sec DTs are great as it stands. Many people just have the wrong idea about them. They think they HAVE to kill tons of works to be beneficial when most of the time they get sick map control and other benefits as well as potential to kill workers Are you able to suggest any other way to harass the enemy? Cause i don't think there are any viable/effective way to do so with the current units Protoss is given, without investing an abundant of resource, just to be shut down.
You said DTs needed a change, they don't really. They fill their capacities. Protoss doesn't really have a dedicated harassment unit but most races don't either. The real issue is how protoss units in small groups don't really keep the same kind of effectiveness that they have in big groups so you can never really split your army into smaller chunks while remaining effective like a Terran can do. Neither do they have the mobility to harass like Zerg do. Honestly I think warpgate/Sentry has screwed the race slightly.
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On August 10 2011 01:15 jimbob615 wrote:
honestly i think its the players not the race. if bisu plays sc2 he will show everyone how it's done.
Protoss sucks in BW too. For like one year they were on top...mostly Bisu and Nal_Ra vs Savior and not much more. None of them ever managed to stay on top more than one season and all far rank behind their Z&T compatriots in metals/seasons/longevity/fame.
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On August 10 2011 01:26 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:21 nt-rAven wrote:
honestly if you think its the players then why were most of you other races(zerg) whinning how toss was op 5-6 months ago and now all of a sudden all those same toss players got worse in skill level/ other races got so much better, even though the general practice time of a pro is rediculously similar. saying toss has no skill is somewhat illogical in a way~ bring back unnerfed warpgates unnerfed voidrays and unnerfed hts... then we will see whatsup~ until then this is a legit thread imo. since no races has been nerfed as much as toss! Yup. Someone cuts off your leg and lets race and see how you do on the podium. Thats what happened with protoss.
They learn to stand on one leg, and then they get that leg cut off too.
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My theory: Protoss has already used every unit because it needed to already. Which makes it very, very hard to create some sort of metagame shift
Take Terran:
In the last year we've seen every single unit being used somehow, not at the same time, but as the metagame evolved.
Reapers(remember Morrow-Idra?), Thors(drops or scv's), Banshee-harras and now Hellion harassment.
Take Zerg:
Ultra's are still hardly ever used, Banelingdrops(and burrows) were kind of new, rushing for faster broodlords was totally new and now infestors are used properly.
Protoss hardly have 'unexplored' units. The only one that really comes to mind is the Carrier, which is kind of similar to the Broodlord in it's functioning.
The race is kind of explored which makes it frustrating to think of new strategies.
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Why doesn't everyone just go the practice partner thread, ask for a terran practice partner - and tell him to do the 1/1/1 against you until you figure out a way to stop it?
As of right now people just bitch and moan about it like it is impossible to stop because fucking MC hasn't done some miracle build against it yet.
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Protoss weakness are the harras options and ground army mobility imo. At the first stages of the game they were considered imba because it was a game of a+move, but now that the game is evolving, they are falling behind, wich is totally normal. (remins me of BW, where unless u were a total beast, you would never achieve anything as protoss)
Btw, i am zerg.
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On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships:
I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates:
Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops -
What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
What the fuck.
Do you even play this game?
At least read the thread, just about every single one of your points was already responded to.
You are correct though that game balance doesn't effect 99% of us playing but how about us watching it?
We don't like seeing every single protoss get 1-1-1 out of GSL.
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On August 10 2011 01:29 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:20 gustavohmp wrote:On August 10 2011 01:14 Heavenly wrote:On August 10 2011 01:11 gustavohmp wrote:On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote:
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community. Pretty much this. +1 armor timing attacks should be able to twart 1/1/1 allins with proper micro Zealots are so damn strong early game, their only problem is being kited by rauders, but LOLFORCEFIELDS and bam, I dominate you with Zealots and Sentries. Also I wonder why no one though of getting a WP to drop Zeals on tanks. Marines will either have to stick by the tanks or attack the front. Win-win situation for P. Duh. Get a WP while getting the Robo Bay, when it finishes you get the Col, then assuming you dont mess up your micro you should have enough tools to outplay your oponent Replay of this in a high level game where the 1/1/1 is perfectly executed please. And er, you focus fire the warp prism with your marines and kill 600 minerals worth of stuff? They're smart enough to not leave their tanks way back in a huge clump then run forward all their marines, then sit there and watch them die to zealots. No one can perfectly execute anything. Youre assuming the T is a pretty good player and the P is a pretty shitty one, and you want the P player to still win If theyre smart enough to not let you rape them, then you are just dumber than them. If you want a high-level solution, be high-level yourself, maybe then you can find it. The way you talk, no one but successful pros can discuss strategy. And you dont look like a successful pro to me. ...What? The way I talk is that every high level protoss player loses to this build when executed by a high level terran, which is what happens. No one being able to perfectly execute anything has nothing to do with it, the T being a good player and the P being bad and still winning has nothing to do with it, "if theyre smart enough to not let you rape them" has nothing to do with it...nothing you said has anything to do with anything I said. No high level protoss has held this against a high level terran unless the terran has made a massive mistake like forget siege mode, which would be like me trying to do a colossus timing attack and forgetting colossus range. So yes, in that case no one but successful pros can discuss the strategy because Johnny Diamond can't say something that sounds smart like "just zealot bomb his tanks" and think that is a viable solution. If there is a solution to this, that works on the level where the terran is smart enough to focus fire, spread his units correctly, etc. then it will not be discovered by some no-name on teamliquid.net theorycrafting about warp prisms. Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 01:27 vizir wrote:On August 10 2011 01:21 Kaonis wrote:On August 10 2011 01:16 vizir wrote:On August 10 2011 01:01 Jesushooves wrote:
I've seen a rush to twilight council with a lot of charge zealots and +1 armor being extremely effective. Sure you have to worry about cloak from 1/1/1, but you can always lay down a few cannons. Or just get the robo as well. If you go 1gate expand vs 1/1/1 tank marine allin and add heavy gateway unit count, you should simply be able to overpower the allin with pure zealots and a few stalkers for banshees.
I don't understand the outrage from this, terrans have been losing to 3gate void for ages but I don't recall ever such a huge reaction from the community. There has been debates over this for MONTHS. You probably don't do this build or don't play this game at all. It is a big OUTRAGE when easy-to-execute build that every platinum player can do requires godlike multitasking, microing and even macroing from the P to stop it. You just come to this thread sounding like "it's no big deal at all" and slam something creative-sounding at the table and think you have solved the issues with 1-1-1 at once? Okay, I laughed, hard. I used to play zerg + Show Spoiler + wtf are you trying to say? I should commit into 4/5 gate every game vs T now JUST IN CASE he is doing 1-1-1? I'm really starting to lose faith in ppl when reading this thread. No, looks like he's saying he used to play zerg and that four gate was impossible to deal with, even though it stopped working well against anything but protoss before it got nerfed anyway. So he's basically being cute by saying "hahaha I whined about what you did forever, now I get to watch you whine, isn't this awesome, hohoho" which is extremely helpful.
Oh, so proplayers know the game inside-out, and if they cant deal with a push like 1/1/1 who has been around ever since the beta, then the game is imbalanced? Come on.
1/1/1 consist of marines, tanks, and a banshee. In my scenario, the Raven is irrelevant, since Im not using DTs and stalkers arent the butter here. Zealots rape marines. Zealots rape tanks. Have your stalkers instead of attacking a siege line. If you dont have enough Zealots / Sentries to deal with the marines, you deserve to lose. Banshees cant hit air, so they cant stop the WP. If you cant get the Zealots above the tanks, you can use it to warp stuff outside of your base for a flank. What makes immortals bad against this push is because immortals are bad against marines, but if you can rule them out, then immortals are pretty good against it.
Everything you have been saying so far boils down to "no, your strategy wont work. If you a-move and get outplayed this shit is imbalanced, period." Stop acting like an smartass if thats all you can say.
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Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak?
Why are you talking about a different game? They didnt figure anything out. Rather they just won't die today to a VR sitting in their FE doing 40 DPS. They won't die to a 4 gate punishing a 1/1/1 because it does not exist ANYMORE. Different game.
Give us our unnerfed warpgates unnerfed voidrays and unnerfed hts... then we will see how much they "figured out"
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A bunch of slayers players died to 3g void against prime the other night. Ganzi had a viking and a bunker full of marines and died.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
Phoenix -,-
Phoenix openings also free win vs almost every factory opening.
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On August 10 2011 01:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:
The state of protoss is fine on every server except the korean server. Seeing that you are not a top level competitor, I do not see a reason for your "crying". But, I will address some facts and some possible solutions protoss could use in theory. Earlier this year, protoss was the strongest race and Koreans would consistantly whine about them. Now, Terrans have figured out how to beat the protoss now all of a sudden protoss is weak? Lets first emphasis on why Terran is so powerful. Terran (once considered the weakest race) became so powerful because there are A LOT more terran players then zerg or protoss. With that being said, Terran has "more people" to create strategy, develop new builds, create timing attacks, refine builds, experience situations, and explore solutions to the metagame. Now that Terran has found the solution to the metagame and Protoss does not currently have an answer for it doesn't necessarily mean that it is suddenly, "a weak race". This is the exact same skill gap that everybody had to face against koreans in Brood War which is why Koreans were the most dominate. The reason was because they had a "solution" to almost every situation possible and foreigners did not. So, when foreigners were put in "specific" situations vs a korean, they did not know how to respond which resulted in their loss. Right now, the exact situation is happening to protoss in general. Another reason there is no solution is because many people (not everybody) would rather copy builds instead of innovating their own which leads to finding easier solutions to beat protoss in general.
Most protoss players (not everybody) do not even attempt to build this or even create a late game strategy surrounding its use. People need to get out of the whole "I don't see pros using it, so I won't use it either" mindstate and be original because I remember when people would consider "turtling" as being very newbie and now its the #1 Terran player on brood wars standard style.
Now, lets explore some possible solutions protoss can use against Terrans, rather then analyzing what "MC does" like a majority of the protoss players playing SC2. Not taking any credit from MC as he is a phenominal player, but keep in mind his pro brood war career was 1-9.
Motherships:
I see the mothership as an critical unit for stopping a terran push. Imagine the use of black hole on the viking ball during an engagement that one move alone would complete change the tide of the battle. The MS could also be used defensively. Lets say there is an expansion that you really need to win the game. Since the mothership cloaks buildings and units alike, it could just sit over the expansion. Mass recall a Terrans main base...
Mass Expand and Gates:
Protoss is extremely powerful if it can reinforce its army faster. Stop sitting on two bases so long trying to mass up. Keep the Terran pinned in his base while you double expand or take the map a lot quicker then normal. Protoss will need more then 15 gates to fight a terran in the transisition to the metagame and after.
Why do many (not all) SC2 protoss players always feel the need to always be offensive? Maybe, Protoss should experiment with defensive strategies leading up to the metagame so they will already be maxed when that terran ball comes and have enough money in the bank to reinforce.
Drops -
What ever happened to high templar drops to rid the terran player of his workers?
Just so possible solutions to get your mind going! I have a lot more but I am too lazy to write them.
Feel free to PM me if you want to know more.
STOP BEING OFFENSIVE! FOCUS ON DEFENSE! Pressure is great, but not a commitment to a full attack. Not until you are running on several bases and are close to max should you choose to engage unless forced to.
for one, the problem is that protoss cant survive till 3base vs 3base or more. and mothership? really? you do know that emp makes mothership completely useless, and cloaking effect and nullified by 1 scan lol. Drops are still used, but way more expensive than Z/T drops, and way more risky. 2-3 HT that have storm ready that you use in a drop might lose you the game because you didnt have those extra storms in your army. Honestly i try to use them, but only when im obviously ahead. And warp prisms are like 3 shotted by vikings lol
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Protoss strats and too linear and predictable.
I may not be grand master. But at hi diamond master's level. You can easily win games with wonky builds that are well executed.
Personally, I love playing protoss against my friends.
I'm just great and being unpredictable althought my sneaky expand pressure builds are commonly known 
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Looking at the graph they seemed fine last month and there haven't been any balance changes made in the last few months. The amulet nerf happened a while ago. I think we need more time to see if the trend continues you can't look at one bad month.
edit: by last month i mean june
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On August 10 2011 01:44 Eiduart wrote:
A bunch of slayers player died to 3g void against prime the other night. Ganzi had a viking and a bunker full of marines and died.
you fail to realize that he forgot to repair, wwas the only reason he died. 100% his fault, he had the game won.
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EPT
