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I don't play P or T but I follow a lot of tournaments.
Protoss have a really hard time to stop those Terran all-ins. They'll find a way to stop them or Blizzard will patch a timing in Terran builds (that's what they do :p : stim upgrade, concussive shells, warp gates, etc).
I feel like in mid/end game, in straight battles, TvP is balanced.
But those Terran drops are insanes against protoss. They often need 3 or 4 rounds of warp-in to stop the drops (if they don't already have stalkers in their base). A full medivac is so cost efficient against gateway units. And Marauders' damages are insane against buildings lol, I see a lot of protoss losing games because their templar archive/twilight council are constantly being killed so they can't finish their key upgrades.
This matchup is not a disaster, it's really exciting to obs in tournaments.
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On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.
So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
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On August 09 2011 23:31 Proko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:24 Denzil wrote:On August 09 2011 23:22 Proko wrote:On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote:
Use your options more, when Zerg were whining we were told to use Nydus more, use drops more use burrow more.
How many of you guys regularly use Warp prisms to harass? Use carriers more try I don't know Carrier harass? How many of you use Immortal drops to pick off important tech structures? Or colossus drops to roast workers from afar? I open with a warp prism build vT and vZ whenever I get close air. it's not as strong as you think it would be. Well do you use it when they're in their base? Or do you use it when they move out to attack? It can be like Ling backstabs, pulling the Terran army back. I use it when they're out but it's not a simple matter of out or in. SCVs and drones die very slowly to stalkers and sentries and can run away easily from zealots. Also any reduction to your army size to harass makes defense much harder. This is especially true early game for toss when our armies our most fragile.
Warp Prism harass does extend into the mid game and the late game very effectively.
2 Sentries and Zealots? FF the mineral line and trap them?
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On August 09 2011 23:31 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:04 Crying wrote:Hello TL, This is not a balance whine,its a pure discussion on what should be doneIts been along time since this was discussed and i though i can give it a try,seeing that protoss isn't doing great at all,and also seeing + Show Spoiler +MC goes in Up&Down (what)?? Does the protoss need a metagame shift?Or we don't have a good smart player that will lead us to better presentation? What do you guys think?What should be done?I hope that thread will be a good discussion on what we should do and what we should improve or see.. Please NO FLAMING in my thread and the bashing will also be forbidden. This is not a balance whine its just a discussion on what we should do. Admins,please let us discuss that state of the protoss that we are in and don't close the thread. Thanks if its fulfilled International WinRate% ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CPVub.png) Korean WinRate% ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bdP2e.png) Also: On August 09 2011 22:53 Sated wrote:Don't forget this data: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=252455Individual League Winners and Runner-Ups (48 Events. 13 events missing data.): First place:Terran - 21 Zerg - 11 Protoss - 3 Second place:Terran - 20 Zerg - 9 Protoss - 6 Totals:Terran - 41 Zerg - 20 Protoss - 9 Some other stats here: + Show Spoiler +On August 09 2011 06:35 stormfoxSC wrote:
I went through the international individual leagues, for the sake of augmenting the OP with a larger data set. Korea is good to look at, but the data set is very small (and only incorporates the Korean state of the game, so to speak).
Individual League Winners & Runner-Ups (1061 events):
First Place
Terran - 498 (46.94%)
Zerg - 263 (24.79%)
Protoss - 264 (24.88%)
Unknown - 36 (3.39%)
Second Place
Terran - 433 (40.81%)
Zerg - 299 (28.18%)
Protoss - 290 (27.33%)
Unknown - 39 (3.68%)*
Total Finals Appearances (1st + 2nd combined)
Terran - 931 (43.87%)
Zerg - 562 (26.48%)
Protoss - 552 (26.11%)
Unknown - 75 (3.53%)*
Bonus! Since we know that the balance of the game has changed radically between 2010 and 2011 thanks to the great patches Blizzard has released, let's break down the data between these two years.
Individual League Winners & Runner-Ups for 2010 (358 events):
First Place
Terran - 206 (57.54%)
Zerg - 49 (13.69%)
Protoss - 88 (24.58%)
Unknown - 15 (4.19%)
Second Place
Terran - 159 (44.41%)
Zerg - 91 (25.42%)
Protoss - 93 (25.98%)
Unknown - 15 (4.19%)*
Total Finals Appearances (1st + 2nd combined)
Terran - 365 (50.98%)
Zerg - 140 (19.55%)
Protoss - 181 (25.28%)
Unknown - 30 (4.19%)*
Individual League Winners & Runner-Ups for 2011 (703 events):
First Place
Terran - 292 (41.54%)
Zerg - 214 (30.44%)
Protoss - 176 (25.04%)
Unknown - 21 (2.99%)
Second Place
Terran - 274 (38.98%)
Zerg - 208 (29.59%)
Protoss - 197 (28.02%)
Unknown - 24 (3.41%)*
Total Finals Appearances (1st + 2nd combined)
Terran - 566 (40.26%)
Zerg - 422 (30.01%)
Protoss - 373 (26.53%)
Unknown - 45 (3.20%)*
And of course, SC2Statistics!
[image loading]
Non-mirror winrates by race for July:
Terran: 54.2%
Zerg: 48.6%
Protoss: 46.7%
Winrates by matchup for July:
TvZ: 55.4%
PvT: 47.2%
ZvP: 53.8%
Average winrates by race (overall):
Terran: 53.1%
Zerg: 47.1%
Protoss: 48.9%
Average winrates by matchup (overall):
TvZ: 54.8%
PvT: 48.4%
ZvP: 49.7%
Average winrates by race (2010):
Terran: 54.4%
Zerg: 45.8%
Protoss: 48.4%
Average winrates by matchup (2010):
TvZ: 55.5%
PvT: 46.6%
ZvP: 47.9%
Average winrates by race (2011):
Terran: 52.3%
Zerg: 47.9%
Protoss: 49.2%
Average winrates by matchup (2011):
TvZ: 54.4%
PvT: 49.4%
ZvP: 50.8%
-------------------
* Random finals appearances are included in the Unknown column, since I was too lazy to make an entirely new column of data for a few data points (<5) that only appear for runner-up (there were no random 1st place wins). Regarding your comment about + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler +
A good first step is to not try breaking siege lines that have ravens by using hallucinated immortals.
+ Show Spoiler +Yeah, because it certainly would've changed that game if he had 100/100 invested elsewhere and his sentries forcefielded the SHIT out of those 8+ bunkers, right? Maybe MVP would've lost like 2 more marines to make the total losses something like 4 marines and a bunker.
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On August 09 2011 23:33 HubertFelix wrote:
I don't play P or T but I follow a lot of tournaments.
Protoss have a really hard time to stop those Terran all-ins. They'll find a way to stop them or Blizzard will patch a timing in Terran builds (that's what they do :p : stim upgrade, concussive shells, warp gates, etc).
I feel like in mid/end game, in straight battles, TvP is balanced.
But those Terran drops are insanes against protoss. They often need 3 or 4 rounds of warp-in to stop the drops (if they don't already have stalkers in their base). A full medivac is so cost efficient against gateway units. And Marauders' damages are insane against buildings lol, I see a lot of protoss losing games because their templar archive/twilight council are constantly being killed so they can't finish their key upgrades.
MC got his twilight council i think sniper twice in the NASL Finals in 2games in a row..
and one of th egames the charge was at 99%
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If metagame shifts more to warp prism and it proves to be succesful (as it might be) it just causes metagame to shift even more and terrans start to build 1 viking to their main in TvP as they are doing right now in TvT to deny any drop harass..
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On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Um, banelings?
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I think Terran scales best with mechanics and multitasking, which is why some of the korean pro terrans completely rape their opponents. Being able to drop multiple places, micro tanks and marines and macro at the same time requires insane talent, but if you can do all of those perfectly, it's pretty hard to lose.
+ Show Spoiler +MVP annihilated Nestea with insane multi pronged aggression and it seemed like there was absolutely nothing Nestea could do.
Zerg also benefits quite a bit from multitasking since you can do ling run-bys and harass with mutas. Toss pretty much only has phoenix and warp prism as multitask intensive harassing units. DTs and Zealots are things you just send somewhere and pretty much leave them there.
I don't think the units are necessarily imbalanced, but toss just seems to lack the innovation and the number of good players to win more tournaments.
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The reason Noblesse won today was because usually forcefields would cut the terran army, and prevent kiting, and zealots would rip apart half of them. But Terrans have started to micro on their end, and Noblesse just swooped in with a medivac and picked up his forces that were caught by FFs, and unloaded after he moved away. And because stalker DPS is so low, they couldn't kill the medivac in time. That simple maneuver meant that 200 sentry energy did nothing, and the zealots did nothing. So many people think forcefield is so overpowered, but they don't think about how to beat it. The top pros do this simple micro all the time and it makes sentries and zealots all but useless before charge.
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On August 09 2011 23:31 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:28 mrsaturn wrote:
Metagame shift.
protoss need immortals to hold early game attacks. going straight to colsi is a punishable cheese. toss have been getting away with it for a long time with pro usage of forcefields, but people have figured out how to punish protoss and exploit their gateway only units.
the game was balanced with every unit in mind and protoss think they can ignore a core unit of their race, the immortal. this is what is holding them back. Immortals suck so hard it's not even funny. You have to micro them seperately while controlling the rest of ur units + there is no possible way to retreat with them.
this is what people said about hellions for a long time, but now they've come to their senses. eventually the immortal will be appreciated like the hellion is now. it's only people's preconceived notions that is holding them back.
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Sweden2303 Posts
On August 09 2011 23:14 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:10 Kevan wrote:
Give it time. If it still seems imbalanced then it will probably get fixed. None of these issues are new, they're just being brought to greater light lately.
Exactly, if it gets a lot of attention then give it time because if it truly is imbalanced getting a lot of attention increases the chances of getting it patched.
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Protoss basically can't do anything vs a player who expects whats coming. If zerg or terran scouts your opening, and knows how to play against it, there's nothing you can do to win, because they have crazy good hard counters to everything we can do.
Open air, and they can go for mass marines or mass hydras.
Open DT's and they can get mass burrow roaches or a raven / marine / banshee / tank push.
Toss openings are only good if the enemy doesn't scout them, otherwise we are behind from the get go.
Just switch to zerg; I have. The only problem is that there are so many ZvZ's now, because people are realizing that toss is a gimmick race, and so they are quitting it. Its a shame. I liked playing toss, but its just not fun relying on your opponent failing to counter you.
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On August 09 2011 23:30 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:29 Jacobs Ladder wrote:On August 09 2011 23:20 Denzil wrote: Carrier harass? That makes 0 sense. Think about what makes a good harass unit. Speed, Expendability/Survivability, DPS, and ability to function in small numbers. Carriers are slow, expensive (in resources, tech, and time), easily destroyed when alone, and require some degree of mass and upgrades to be effective. This is like recommending BC harass. Broodlord harass works in the same way. There's a notable difference between BL harass and siegeing with BLs. When a zerg has their whole army underneath the BL's poking an enemy army/expansion, that's a siege. Harass would be sending a BL alone to attack an expansion/mineral line. That would lead to the BL being picked off by blink stalkers/vikings almost instantly.
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On August 09 2011 23:36 mrsaturn wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:31 Jakkerr wrote:On August 09 2011 23:28 mrsaturn wrote:
Metagame shift.
protoss need immortals to hold early game attacks. going straight to colsi is a punishable cheese. toss have been getting away with it for a long time with pro usage of forcefields, but people have figured out how to punish protoss and exploit their gateway only units.
the game was balanced with every unit in mind and protoss think they can ignore a core unit of their race, the immortal. this is what is holding them back. Immortals suck so hard it's not even funny. You have to micro them seperately while controlling the rest of ur units + there is no possible way to retreat with them. this is what people said about hellions for a long time, but now they've come to their senses. eventually the immortal will be appreciated like the hellion is now. it's only people's preconceived notions that is holding them back.
Yeah for sure, people should definitely start researching immortal bomb-shots so they can have four of those 100 mineral units slide into the zerg or terran base on their rocket shoes to wipe out a mineral line in 5 seconds.
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On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
Point to consider is the value of those units elsewhere.
If you go mutas or banes, they're key units in your army as well as being shipped off to harass. The same can be said for medivac drops of pretty much anything T has.
Teching to DTs, on the other hand, doesn't boost your army all that much - you harass/delay with them, maybe make archons, but mainly you're backtracking on that tech to then go to a core army unit. Somewhat similar with Phoenixes (I have now forced hydras, I will make a colossus army!) in the vast majority of cases. This means you have to do damage or you are behind, while a denied T drop just means they try again later, nothing lost.
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On August 09 2011 23:35 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment? Um, banelings?
AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?
You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.
Lair 150 / 100
Baneling nest 50 / 100
Overlord speed 100/100
Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember)
Overlord 100
4 banelings 100/100
700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
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On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote:
Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings)
... Sigh
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I hope people aren't forgetting that current protoss problems in PvT seem to be early game related. The 1-1-1 builds and early rax pushes are wreaking the most havoc right now, and in actual macro games protoss is just as strong if not stronger than terran.
Instead of going "this race is fucking HORRIBLE", I think people strive to figure out the perfect way to defend these pushes. If there is any imbalance, it should be pretty easy to fix as well with some slight warpgate change for example.
This defeatist attitude is unnecessary.
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I think the problems that protoss are having are because the other 2 races changed up their metagame, with more early-game pushes.
Protoss relies very heavily on a few lynch-pin units (sentry, colossus, HT) because their basic units are not as good as the equivalent for the other races. The terran and zerg are just finding timings to punish protoss.
While I wouldn't mind a change to protoss to make them less lynch-pin-ey, I think the current protoss problems can be overcome with some better scouting and safer early game play.
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On August 09 2011 23:29 Utinni wrote:
Haven't people been practicing sentry drops with zealots or dts? (2 or 3 ff's by a good player) and you basically have a fence and tons of scv or drone kills. I thought I had heard something about that in a thread.
Edit: in regards to early hurassment.
It's great until you discover that roaches/marines can kill the zealots and range and sentries do -3 damage per shot and the gas cost makes your army really weak to counter attack.
I do it now and it's successful, but people are already starting to recognize the drop style and prep for it a little. the slightest preparation shuts it down and it's an incredibly huge investment for a harass strat without the punch and longevity of mutas and medivacs.
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