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On August 09 2011 23:43 Strike_ wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:27 Knutzi wrote:
i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just warped in a round of units and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose alot before your army can get there.
if terran walls of before your probe scouts him there is no way of knowing what he will do, he could be doing the 1 1 1 or simply just expanding behind it and both these things need two completly diffrent counters, 1 require you to chrono your probes like a madman and the other to cut probes.
there are tons of things like this where protoss just have to take a blind guess and pray its right, if you where right its an even game if not your dead
You know this is exactly how you play zerg
This just in, no race has perfect scouting, especially early game.
Shocking, I know.
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Lets keep the attitude cool guys
NO FLAME OR BASH, Please.
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If what, Protoss needs some nerfs late game. Any buffs would make that race completely overpowered.
Give it time to figure out how to deal with the terran all in, if there's no solution in like 2 months terran will get a nerf.
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Removing the previous nerf to warpgate will probably help. Protoss atm seems having abit hard time getting safe second base now against Z and T.
Ling/roach all in and 1-1-1 all in is the problem I think.
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On August 09 2011 23:48 decaf wrote:
If what, Protoss needs some nerfs late game. Any buffs would make that race completely overpowered.
Give it time to figure out how to deal with the terran all in, if there's no solution in like 2 months terran will get a nerf.
20 percent winrate? Lol just nerf them. Of course!!
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On August 09 2011 23:46 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:44 Denzil wrote:On August 09 2011 23:42 Proko wrote:On August 09 2011 23:41 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:37 Denzil wrote:On August 09 2011 23:35 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:
[quote]
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW)
Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die
And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes..
simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment? Um, banelings? AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right? You're thinking of baneling drops in which case. Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line. ...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army. In that case, teching to DT costs: 100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon and still they do less damage to a mineral line. that's 975/525 in case you were keeping score. And Archons can still be used as part of the main army. LOL wow you are ridiculous. Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote:
I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent. Lmao wtf does this have to do with anything.
You're complaining protoss doesn't have options, you do. You don't have as great harassment options as the other races, but you do.
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When terran scouts some push or all-in coming, they prepare and crush it.
When toss scouts a push or all-in coming, they prepare and still get crushed by it.
This is evidence that toss doesn't have the tools or easy availability of those tools that terran is equipped with.
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I think people are underestimating the power of Stargate tech. MC was right, Phoenix and Void Rays need to be incorporated more for harassment. They *are* good at harassing.
I'll be honest, I've been having trouble PvT and PvZ, but I really hate the word "imba". One month of tournament losses is insignificant. Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.
Warp Prism harass is a joke though. I don't see that going anywhere. Carriers are good v Terran Mech, but who the heck goes mech v Protoss these days. Half the Protoss race is basically the counter to mech...chargelots, HT, void rays, phoenix, immortals, dark templar...
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How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
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On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote:
How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Try since the beta.
It's ok though we'll use cannons against siege tanks that'll fix it ty
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On August 09 2011 23:37 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment? Point to consider is the value of those units elsewhere. If you go mutas or banes, they're key units in your army as well as being shipped off to harass. The same can be said for medivac drops of pretty much anything T has. Teching to DTs, on the other hand, doesn't boost your army all that much - you harass/delay with them, maybe make archons, but mainly you're backtracking on that tech to then go to a core army unit. Somewhat similar with Phoenixes (I have now forced hydras, I will make a colossus army!) in the vast majority of cases. This means you have to do damage or you are behind, while a denied T drop just means they try again later, nothing lost.
Mutas aren't key in your army versus Toss at all. Even against Terran only if you're ahead.
Banelings are versus Terran but Baneling drop versus Protoss committs you to a very specific comp which most people think is very unstable and requires a big lead to really work.
Even then Baneling drop costs shit loads of resources for a chance of success assuming the don't move their workers.
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On August 09 2011 23:49 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:46 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:44 Denzil wrote:On August 09 2011 23:42 Proko wrote:On August 09 2011 23:41 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:37 Denzil wrote:On August 09 2011 23:35 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:
[quote]
You have DT's.
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment? Um, banelings? AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right? You're thinking of baneling drops in which case. Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line. ...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army. In that case, teching to DT costs: 100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon and still they do less damage to a mineral line. that's 975/525 in case you were keeping score. And Archons can still be used as part of the main army. LOL wow you are ridiculous. On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote:
I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent. Lmao wtf does this have to do with anything. You're complaining protoss doesn't have options, you do. You don't have as great harassment options as the other races, but you do.
Except I didn't say that at all? lmao wtf. My original post in this thread was about the warpgate nerf leading to greed and extreme vulnerability in the early game.
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On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?
1. Zerglings are free.
2. Mutas can be used with the army.
3. Drops can be upgraded at one of the many hatcheries.
4. Zerg units can be split up and require a disproportionate invest on protoss to deal with.
people can probably come up with more.
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On August 09 2011 23:40 Senx wrote:
Are we going to have these threads every time a top player falls down to code A?
P player are frustrated right now. Its not just the player you speak of, but the fact that P in the GSL are doing TERRIBLE right now. In this GSL the only non-mirror P wins have been against a sub-korean-par foreigner and a single game taken off of GanZI. If that had happen to Zergs they would be just as frustrated at this point. Its not the balance of the game that has P players disheartened, its not the theory of the match ups, its the results of this GSL.
A lot of players watch the GSL for inspiration. How often do you see someone say "I'm totally going to try that" during a LR thread. Now imagine watching the first chunk of a GSL and not having a single thing that inspires you. Imagine struggling with certain all-ins and pushes on the ladder, flipping on the GSL hopping for some help only to watch the best players in the world fall again and again to the same pushes. Imagine that the runner up of code A plays your race and loses 3 games in a row to the same all in. Wouldn't that be frustrating to you? Wouldn't that make you lose some faith in your race? That is why protoss players are so vocal at the moment. Balanced or not, its not fun to watch your race get kicked in the teeth time and time again.
On August 09 2011 23:50 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote:
How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more. Try since the beta. I remember losing to it on Kulas. God I hated that map.
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On August 09 2011 23:48 decaf wrote:
If what, Protoss needs some nerfs late game. Any buffs would make that race completely overpowered.
Give it time to figure out how to deal with the terran all in, if there's no solution in like 2 months terran will get a nerf.
Ummm? Discussions of terran all-ins have been around pretty fucking long now. There are still no viable solutions unless you make sick assumptions and take guesses about what is coming early enough.
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On August 09 2011 23:43 Arcanefrost wrote:
Protoss doesn't have a harass unit like the banshee/hellion/baneling bomb, and they don't have mules or inject larvae to boost economy quickly after taking damage from one of these (cb doesn't quite cut it).
Didn't Zergs say that they didn't have a scouting unit, that Infestors were still not good enough, that their drops were bad and slow, Roaches are completely useless, Hydras are too slow off creep, and many other things I can't recall right now?
And they also kept saying how "they tried everything but it just isn't good enough".
Turns out that only once the progamers really have their backs against the wall vs a recent strategy/trend, they WILL come up with solutions. It's always been like that, I can't see why it would be any different this time.
All of those arguments make sense in words, but really this isn't a game design competition. It's a game problem solving one.
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Protoss, I feel you. It was really hard to be a zerg for a while.
I will give you the response I always wanted someone to give me when I zerg QQ'd: "Hang in there, and if things keep going for a while as they are now, I will admit imbalance and call for blizz to buff toss."
Swarm for life though 
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On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote:
How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.
Busting out the ole one base immortal/voidray composition versus an essentially mass marine push, I'm liking it. Cannons, also fairly good versus siege tanks.
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On August 09 2011 23:39 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:31 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:26 Krehlmar wrote:On August 09 2011 23:22 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote:
Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it.
My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better.
Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering. White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post. White Ra's special tactics almost always fail. And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill. My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much. Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it  Firstly MC is still Code S....he's just in up and downs. Secondly Huk and MC are infinitely superior to White Ra in all match ups. Massive LOL at the idea that winning is not skill. Winning is all that matters ever. White Ra is a mediocre foreign Toss with gimmicky play who has a lot of fans because he speaks in broken English and is a 'character'. That's fine, but as a player he's nothing special and gets slapped down really fast by solid players and has no major tournament results to his name since people actually learnt how to play the game in the last six months. In the words of Tyler: "You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler LOL, All credibility of your argument is thrown out the window with your final quote. You talk about winning being everything, huk, mc > whit-ra... etc etc Then you quote Tyler, who hasn't won anything recently. How's that conservative play going for him?
Tylers ability has nothing to do with the accuracy of his quote.
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EPT
