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State of the Protoss - Page 9

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Hollis
Profile Joined January 2011
United States505 Posts
August 09 2011 14:52 GMT
#161
Clearly it's because

+ Show Spoiler +
terran op


+ Show Spoiler +
jk jk everyone knows zerg is op


+ Show Spoiler +
jk jk game is balance wait and see


User was warned for this post
Fig
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1324 Posts
August 09 2011 14:53 GMT
#162
On August 09 2011 23:49 KevinIX wrote:
I think people are underestimating the power of Stargate tech. MC was right, Phoenix and Void Rays need to be incorporated more for harassment. They *are* good at harassing.

I'll be honest, I've been having trouble PvT and PvZ, but I really hate the word "imba". One month of tournament losses is insignificant. Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.

Warp Prism harass is a joke though. I don't see that going anywhere. Carriers are good v Terran Mech, but who the heck goes mech v Protoss these days. Half the Protoss race is basically the counter to mech...chargelots, HT, void rays, phoenix, immortals, dark templar...

You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires.
Can't elope with my cantaloupe
Condor Hero
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2931 Posts
August 09 2011 14:53 GMT
#163
On August 09 2011 23:49 Denzil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2011 23:46 Heavenly wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:44 Denzil wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:42 Proko wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:41 Heavenly wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:37 Denzil wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:35 Heavenly wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:
[quote]

You have DT's.

LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's??
Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.


So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?


Um, banelings?


AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?

You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.

Lair 150 / 100
Baneling nest 50 / 100
Overlord speed 100/100
Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember)
Overlord 100
4 banelings 100/100
700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.


...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.

In that case, teching to DT costs:

100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway
150 for gateway
150 for cybernetics
50/50 for warpgate
150/100 for twilight
100/250 for dt shrine
125/125 per dt
100 for proxy pyon

and still they do less damage to a mineral line.



that's

975/525 in case you were keeping score.


And Archons can still be used as part of the main army.


LOL wow you are ridiculous.


On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote:
I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.

I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.


Lmao wtf does this have to do with anything.


You're complaining protoss doesn't have options, you do. You don't have as great harassment options as the other races, but you do.

You must be trolling if you really think the protoss harass options are as viable as T/Z harass options.
WarpMePlz
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom76 Posts
August 09 2011 14:53 GMT
#164
It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-09 14:54:38
August 09 2011 14:54 GMT
#165
On August 09 2011 23:53 Condor Hero wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2011 23:49 Denzil wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:46 Heavenly wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:44 Denzil wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:42 Proko wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:41 Heavenly wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:37 Denzil wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:35 Heavenly wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:
[quote]
LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's??
Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race.


So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment?


Um, banelings?


AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right?

You're thinking of baneling drops in which case.

Lair 150 / 100
Baneling nest 50 / 100
Overlord speed 100/100
Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember)
Overlord 100
4 banelings 100/100
700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.


...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.

In that case, teching to DT costs:

100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway
150 for gateway
150 for cybernetics
50/50 for warpgate
150/100 for twilight
100/250 for dt shrine
125/125 per dt
100 for proxy pyon

and still they do less damage to a mineral line.



that's

975/525 in case you were keeping score.


And Archons can still be used as part of the main army.


LOL wow you are ridiculous.


On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote:
I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.

I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.


Lmao wtf does this have to do with anything.


You're complaining protoss doesn't have options, you do. You don't have as great harassment options as the other races, but you do.

You must be trolling if you really think the protoss harass options are as viable as T/Z harass options.

You don't have as great harassment options as the other races, but you do.
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
Heavenly
Profile Joined January 2011
2172 Posts
August 09 2011 14:54 GMT
#166
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote:
It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?


Because the all-in killing us has siege tanks.
"thx for all my fans i'm many lost but cheer for me .. i lost but so happy my power is fans i will good play this is promise my fans" - oGsMC
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-09 14:55:30
August 09 2011 14:54 GMT
#167
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote:
It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?

As soon as Terran all-ins don't include both of the following:

a) Siege tanks, that do not give a single fuck

b) Banshees, that will just go past them

There was awhile where this style of all-in was pretty much purely marine/banshee/raven and cannons were great against that, but tanks kind of, y'know, outrange them.
Jinivus
Profile Joined July 2011
747 Posts
August 09 2011 14:54 GMT
#168
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote:
It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?

marauders/tanks...it's a waste of minerals making more zealots is better.
Cyrak
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada536 Posts
August 09 2011 14:55 GMT
#169
It's honestly pointless to argue about this. Most of the players posting are diamond or lower and the fact is that even most of the foreign pro scene at this point can't touch the Koreans and don't participate in their metagame.

All we can do is look at the results. It's laughable that people are looking at this situation and saying "oh, the Koreans just need to try harder or figure this or that out. It's simple, just use more DTs!" or whatever. The numbers speak for themselves and it'll get patched or not.
Fortune favors the prepared mind.
Crying
Profile Joined February 2011
Bulgaria778 Posts
August 09 2011 14:55 GMT
#170
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote:
It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?


cannons simply get 3shotted by stimmed marauders and cant be repaired/transfused
Determination~ Hard Work Surpass NATURAL GENIUS!
Condor Hero
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States2931 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-09 14:55:54
August 09 2011 14:55 GMT
#171
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote:
It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?

When they refund cannons, or make them movable.
Don't ask dumb questions if you don't want dumb answers.
Corvette
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States433 Posts
August 09 2011 14:55 GMT
#172
when you put a spoiler

say what will be spoiled in front of it

like:

blah blah blah (GSL Aug Code S Day 1 Spoiler) + Show Spoiler +
dont spoil stuff -.-
blah blah blah
HubertFelix
Profile Joined April 2010
France631 Posts
August 09 2011 14:55 GMT
#173
On August 09 2011 23:53 Fig wrote:
You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires.


Could you explain lol?
RaKooNs
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom397 Posts
August 09 2011 14:55 GMT
#174
I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....
If you don't drop sweat today, you will drop tears tomorrow - SlayerS_MMA
yandere991
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Australia394 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-09 14:58:10
August 09 2011 14:55 GMT
#175
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote:
How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.


I like a lot of other protoss in this thread is very curious on this so called protoss 1-1-1


On August 09 2011 23:55 HubertFelix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2011 23:53 Fig wrote:
You know, MC was joking when he said that. Even Dustin Browder just stated in his latest interview that stargate harass is gimmicky and ineffective, especially for the insane amounts of APM it requires.


Could you explain lol?


Gravitation beaming workers one by one takes more APM than clicking in the middle of a mineral line with a flock of mutalisks.
Olsson
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden931 Posts
August 09 2011 14:56 GMT
#176
On August 09 2011 23:50 Dfgj wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2011 23:49 Olsson wrote:
How new is this 1/1/1 build? It's not that old really. Protoss just needs time to figure it out and if terran techs 1/1/1 why doesn't protoss. Terran uses bunkers against protoss timings which means protoss should get a few cannons up aswell. Cannons are btw the best static defence in the game use them more.

Try since the beta.

It's ok though we'll use cannons against siege tanks that'll fix it ty


I mean as the 1/1/1 raven tank timing not the build into banshee or drops etc.
Naniwa <3
Proko
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1022 Posts
August 09 2011 14:56 GMT
#177
On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote:
I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.

I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.

ANSWER TO SENTRY/MUTA Harass.

What's more of an investment, four mutas or four sentries with a warp prism. Four mutas are more expensive and are higher tech and takes longer to get.



they're also a midgame investment strategy. a four sentry drop is an early game strat. at least usually. Mutas are also usually a full commitment strat. try fully committing to sentries sometime.
Caster duos should compliment each others' strengths. "You look very handsome today, Tasteless."
vizir
Profile Joined August 2010
Finland154 Posts
August 09 2011 14:56 GMT
#178
On August 09 2011 23:53 WarpMePlz wrote:
It's perfectly logical for terran to build bunkers to prevent protoss allins from being successful. The same is said for Zerg holding 4 gates etc. When are we going to see cannons being standard for holding terran allins?


I heard siege tanks are preeeetty good against cannons :D
Strike_
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Netherlands704 Posts
August 09 2011 14:56 GMT
#179
On August 09 2011 23:46 Bagi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2011 23:43 Strike_ wrote:
On August 09 2011 23:27 Knutzi wrote:
i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just warped in a round of units and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose alot before your army can get there.

if terran walls of before your probe scouts him there is no way of knowing what he will do, he could be doing the 1 1 1 or simply just expanding behind it and both these things need two completly diffrent counters, 1 require you to chrono your probes like a madman and the other to cut probes.

there are tons of things like this where protoss just have to take a blind guess and pray its right, if you where right its an even game if not your dead

You know this is exactly how you play zerg

This just in, no race has perfect scouting, especially early game.

Shocking, I know.

Yeah I know but a few words can be changed in knutzis post and it's a zerg whining look:
+ Show Spoiler +
i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just MADE DRONES and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose beCAUSE YOU HAVE NO ARMY.

if terran walls of before your DRONE scouts him there is no way of knowing what he will do, he could be doing the 1 1 1 or simply just expanding behind it and both these things need two completly diffrent counters, 1 require you to DRONE like a madman and the other to cut DRONES.

there are tons of things like this where ZERG just have to take a blind guess and pray its right, if you where right its an even game if not your dead

:p
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
August 09 2011 14:57 GMT
#180
On August 09 2011 23:55 RaKooNs wrote:
I feel that zealot archon is the way forward with protoss.....

Zealot archon is an amazing late-game composition. However, it has some issues earlier imo - it needs a lot of infrastructure to really get going, and is thus pretty vulnerable to a lot of midgame timings. A risk you have to take and can work around, I guess.

I don't think it's much help against one-base allins, anyway :p
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