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On August 09 2011 23:31 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:26 Krehlmar wrote:On August 09 2011 23:22 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote:
Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it.
My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better.
Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering. White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post. White Ra's special tactics almost always fail. And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill. My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much. Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it  Firstly MC is still Code S....he's just in up and downs. Secondly Huk and MC are infinitely superior to White Ra in all match ups. Massive LOL at the idea that winning is not skill. Winning is all that matters ever. White Ra is a mediocre foreign Toss with gimmicky play who has a lot of fans because he speaks in broken English and is a 'character'. That's fine, but as a player he's nothing special and gets slapped down really fast by solid players and has no major tournament results to his name since people actually learnt how to play the game in the last six months. In the words of Tyler: "You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler
LOL, All credibility of your argument is thrown out the window with your final quote. You talk about winning being everything, huk, mc > whit-ra... etc etc
Then you quote Tyler, who hasn't won anything recently.
How's that conservative play going for him?
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On August 09 2011 23:38 ZaaaaaM wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote:
Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings) ... Sigh
Indeed Incontrol on his stream yesterday had a game where he got 11 or so Carriers to compliment his army against a Mech Terran.
It worked damn well, too damn well.
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Are we going to have these threads every time a top player falls down to code A?
I just think its a bit silly for all the grandmasters in this thread to have figured out protoss 100% and concluded that the race is indeed the weakest, and that these statistics prove it.
Terran, protoss and zergs have all dominated at different points of SC2 history, Its a never ending cycle and I dont think its right to just jump the gun so fast.
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On August 09 2011 23:38 syrupychinadian wrote:
I think the problems that protoss are having are because the other 2 races changed up their metagame, with more early-game pushes.
Protoss relies very heavily on a few lynch-pin units (sentry, colossus, HT) because their basic units are not as good as the equivalent for the other races. The terran and zerg are just finding timings to punish protoss.
While I wouldn't mind a change to protoss to make them less lynch-pin-ey, I think the current protoss problems can be overcome with some better scouting and safer early game play.
How can you possibly get any safer than a 3 gate robo? Please enlighten me. I guess protoss just shouldn't expand until we have 5 observers, god damn we should know better!!
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 09 2011 23:26 Krehlmar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:22 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote:
Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it.
My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better.
Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering. White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post. White Ra's special tactics almost always fail. And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill.My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much. Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it
I'm sure bashing and trying to slander other people will help improve the state of Protoss (including putting a smiley face to add insult to injury.
As many other people has said, the sole measure of skill skills is results.
+ Show Spoiler +Otherwise maybe i should start claiming i'm a better protoss player than white-ra and mc cause i'm coming up with more innovative ideas than them, i just dont have the practice time to improve my mechanics to be better than them yet.
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If it was just me and some other guy to say protoss needs redoing its fine im gonna say myself IM BAD and just start to do other things ,but even some progamers are saying it
Alicia wrote on his twitter
David kim please save us..
Its not a random thing that even progamers are struggling
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On August 09 2011 23:37 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:35 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment? Um, banelings? AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right? You're thinking of baneling drops in which case. Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line.
...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army.
In that case, teching to DT costs:
100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway
150 for gateway
150 for cybernetics
50/50 for warpgate
150/100 for twilight
100/250 for dt shrine
125/125 per dt
100 for proxy pyon
and still they do less damage to a mineral line.
925/425
loses to a spore crawler or an overseer
On August 09 2011 23:40 Senx wrote:
Are we going to have these threads every time a top player falls down to code A?
I just think its a bit silly for all the grandmasters in this thread to have figured out protoss 100% and concluded that the race is indeed the weakest, and that these statistics prove it.
Terran, protoss and zergs have all dominated at different points of SC2 history, Its a never ending cycle and I dont think its right to just jump the gun so fast.
I believe Korean protoss are something like a 20% winrate versus Korean terran in the GSL right now.
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On August 09 2011 23:39 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:38 ZaaaaaM wrote:On August 09 2011 23:06 Crying wrote:
Yea but carriers are alot of gas and minerals ,and since we can't defend alot, massing cariers is only avialable in lower leagues,not in masters.And pretty much corruptors and vikings totally shut down carriers in bigger numbers (for the vikings) ... Sigh Indeed Incontrol on his stream yesterday had a game where he got 11 or so Carriers to compliment his army against a Mech Terran. It worked damn well, too damn well.
And MC won with 130 supply vs a maxed mech terran, leading to even Jinro commenting in the thread that Mech was terrible.
The issue isn't mech, or being able to beat the Terran army in a straight fight. It's all-ins and a lack of flexible midgame options in the harass department.
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On August 09 2011 23:41 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:37 Denzil wrote:On August 09 2011 23:35 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment? Um, banelings? AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right? You're thinking of baneling drops in which case. Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line. ...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army. In that case, teching to DT costs: 100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon and still they do less damage to a mineral line.
that's
975/525 in case you were keeping score.
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On August 09 2011 23:39 Proko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:29 Utinni wrote:
Haven't people been practicing sentry drops with zealots or dts? (2 or 3 ff's by a good player) and you basically have a fence and tons of scv or drone kills. I thought I had heard something about that in a thread.
Edit: in regards to early hurassment. It's great until you discover that roaches/marines can kill the zealots and range and sentries do -3 damage per shot and the gas cost makes your army really weak to counter attack. I do it now and it's successful, but people are already starting to recognize the drop style and prep for it a little. the slightest preparation shuts it down and it's an incredibly huge investment for a harass strat without the punch and longevity of mutas and medivacs.
Then don't invest so much in it, It doesn't have to be about the SCV or Drones killed it can be about losing mining time instead, it's all beneficial to the cause and the THREAT of being able to drop zealots or stalkers int he mineral line is what makes it effective.
The THREAT of a Terran drop makes me put Spine crawlers in my mineral line
The THREAT of Mutalisk harass makes Terrans put missile turrets in their base
The THREAT of Protoss drops makes people multitask that little bit more and either leave army at home (leading to a weaker push) or put up static defense.
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On August 09 2011 23:27 Knutzi wrote:
i feel its very easy to just die because of things you have very little control over, for instances you just warped in a round of units and right after you spot 2 medivacs on its way to your base, you will lose alot before your army can get there.
if terran walls of before your probe scouts him there is no way of knowing what he will do, he could be doing the 1 1 1 or simply just expanding behind it and both these things need two completly diffrent counters, 1 require you to chrono your probes like a madman and the other to cut probes.
there are tons of things like this where protoss just have to take a blind guess and pray its right, if you where right its an even game if not your dead
You know this is exactly how you play zerg
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Yes protoss really needs midgame harasment option that don't actually make them commit all in
And no WarpPrism + 4 zealots is horrible cos u can stop it just by moving your works out of mineral line,we need something that makes good damage fast and if the opponent is not careful to remove his workers in time he suffers eco loss
4 zealots cant even kill an scv if they move as fast as possible
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On August 09 2011 23:39 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:31 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:26 Krehlmar wrote:On August 09 2011 23:22 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:20 Krehlmar wrote:
Truth be told hardly any protoss other than White-Ra is any "good" and I'll tell you why:
Analyze MC's style and you'll hardly notice any of the innovation that BoxeR, White-Ra and NesTea uses, MC is all about crisp micro+builds+aggression. Most of his games are actually just standard protoss but his opponents get so stressed out that they lose the game for him rather than MC winning it.
My point is; MC Is kind of like MarineKingPrime... once people realize he's just offensive and has some tricks up his sleeve there isn't much to it.
White-Ra on the other hand is a huge innovator and ALWAYS finds way to use his units to the fullest, be it running the first colossus across the map to a semi-contained terran and just sniping 4 marines and 2 depots; He used the colossus as a mobile tank... why don't any other protoss do that? He uses dark templars as blitz soldiers, he uses warp prism, he uses alot of funny but also useful tricks much like BoxeR's infinate drops and NesTea's spinecrawler rush etc.
Now I know people will argue and say MC and HuK are great, of which I don't agree of. I think they're good players and have practiced alot, but I think given the same time AND (and this is VERY important) confidence, BoxeR, Jinro and others would be much MUCH better.
Yeah forcefield micro is great and all but it is hardly the NesTea level of play that'll put a protoss up there alongside him.
EDIT: Also thanks for spoilering. White Ra isn't even the best foreign Protoss. What a dumb post, MC's won 2 GSL's and several foreign tournaments. Huk has won three major foreign tournament. Just all round wrong post. White Ra's special tactics almost always fail. And so did Fruitdealer and Marinekingprime until people learned how to beat them. Shut up with the attitude when you're "facts" are just player statistics that prove nothing. Europa has the most sprinting wins in the olympics, does that mean we're better runners than most african nations that are now dominating it? No. God when will fanboys learn that wins do not equal to proven skill. My point is that White-Ra does not have half the training regiment of MC or HuK yet holds almost the same standard. You can notice it under the surface, the innovation and play, much like you can notice how BoxeR is a godamn baller but his mechanics are just lacking to much, he hasn't practiced the cores enough for his innovation to put him over the edge over people who HAVE practiced as much. Also according to your logic I win because MC is in code B. Suck it Firstly MC is still Code S....he's just in up and downs. Secondly Huk and MC are infinitely superior to White Ra in all match ups. Massive LOL at the idea that winning is not skill. Winning is all that matters ever. White Ra is a mediocre foreign Toss with gimmicky play who has a lot of fans because he speaks in broken English and is a 'character'. That's fine, but as a player he's nothing special and gets slapped down really fast by solid players and has no major tournament results to his name since people actually learnt how to play the game in the last six months. In the words of Tyler: "You can be creative but I will crush it under the iron fist of my conservative play." - Liquid`Tyler LOL, All credibility of your argument is thrown out the window with your final quote. You talk about winning being everything, huk, mc > whit-ra... etc etc Then you quote Tyler, who hasn't won anything recently. How's that conservative play going for him?
You do understand that this entire thread is just people who haven't won anything or even participated in a prized tournament quoting and arguing against each other, right?
If you don't think Tyler's opinion is "high level" enough and can't look past the results (which in regards to this subject mean absolutely nothing), then I don't see why you would even engage in any discussion on this topic.
Just read what MC said in his last interview, and you have what you want.
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Protoss doesn't have a harass unit like the banshee/hellion/baneling bomb, and they don't have mules or inject larvae to boost economy quickly after taking damage from one of these (cb doesn't quite cut it). Terran and zerg aren't op imo, they're just more complete (which means toss has to do everything absolutely perfectly). They have better pressure (toss has to go semi all-in if they want to do damage), better harass, more possibilities,... I think adding reavers and a blueflame/baneling vs workers nerf would do good to the game.
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Part of the reason of the lynch pin play is because of the tech routes, the Stargate is pretty much unused in PvT and PvP because in both match ups the Robo is so much more viable, the SG have some niche utility but nothing like a medivac. While the 1-1-1 timings hits, it uses three units that pretty much force Protoss into a weird position, so those lynch units are so much more important, marines will roll through stalkers and banshees do pretty good against anything that's not a stalker. The siege tanks are just there for zoning, most the time if you don't engage right, your sentry count is worthless because the tanks zone better than FF can, and you need those zealots in the face of the tanks most of the time.
I wouldn't mind seeing something like the WP going into warp mode faster, its current animation is way to cumbersome. Maybe something like a mobile warp, where you can warp inside the prism, and then drop them or have the option to warp outside the prism.
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On August 09 2011 23:42 Proko wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:41 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:37 Denzil wrote:On August 09 2011 23:35 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment? Um, banelings? AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right? You're thinking of baneling drops in which case. Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line. ...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army. In that case, teching to DT costs: 100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon and still they do less damage to a mineral line. that's 975/525 in case you were keeping score.
And Archons can still be used as part of the main army.
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We are not speaking here of OP and UP
We are speaking here that protoss is really not complete as"Arcanefrost" stated already.
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On August 09 2011 23:43 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:39 Proko wrote:On August 09 2011 23:29 Utinni wrote:
Haven't people been practicing sentry drops with zealots or dts? (2 or 3 ff's by a good player) and you basically have a fence and tons of scv or drone kills. I thought I had heard something about that in a thread.
Edit: in regards to early hurassment. It's great until you discover that roaches/marines can kill the zealots and range and sentries do -3 damage per shot and the gas cost makes your army really weak to counter attack. I do it now and it's successful, but people are already starting to recognize the drop style and prep for it a little. the slightest preparation shuts it down and it's an incredibly huge investment for a harass strat without the punch and longevity of mutas and medivacs. Then don't invest so much in it, It doesn't have to be about the SCV or Drones killed it can be about losing mining time instead, it's all beneficial to the cause and the THREAT of being able to drop zealots or stalkers int he mineral line is what makes it effective. The THREAT of a Terran drop makes me put Spine crawlers in my mineral line The THREAT of Mutalisk harass makes Terrans put missile turrets in their base The THREAT of Protoss drops makes people multitask that little bit more and either leave army at home (leading to a weaker push) or put up static defense.
The TECH is the investment, the army that's not at your base defending your fragile opening is the investment., it's not like you can fake the build and expect your opponent to react and prepare for it. that's what's silly about a Terran saying this. A medivac has a great long term use, the more your make the better. Once you have one warp prism it's usefulness drops significantly when you make a second and third..
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I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.
ANSWER TO SENTRY/MUTA Harass.
What's more of an investment, four mutas or four sentries with a warp prism. Four mutas are more expensive and are higher tech and takes longer to get.
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On August 09 2011 23:44 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:42 Proko wrote:On August 09 2011 23:41 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:37 Denzil wrote:On August 09 2011 23:35 Heavenly wrote:On August 09 2011 23:33 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:27 Condor Hero wrote:On August 09 2011 23:18 lunchforthesky wrote:On August 09 2011 23:10 Crying wrote:On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =) I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW) Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes.. simply You have DT's. LOL wtf how have no one thought of DT's?? Why don't protoss harass? oh yeah thats because both our harass units require extreme investment (DT/Phoenix) and are hard countered by one inexpensive building from each race. So which Zerg harass units don't require extreme investment? Um, banelings? AH of course because we can just roll banelings into your mineral line while your armys at the front right? You're thinking of baneling drops in which case. Lair 150 / 100 Baneling nest 50 / 100 Overlord speed 100/100 Overlord drop 200/100 (I think can never remember) Overlord 100 4 banelings 100/100 700 / 500 just to have the chance to drop banelings in your mineral line. ...Did you seriously just include the cost of teching to lair in that...no comment...and the cost of an overlord. Several people already use ling/baneling drops/infestors as their main army anyway. Overlord speed is a completely fine investment even if you aren't doing baneling drops as part of your army. In that case, teching to DT costs: 100 for pylon for power and supply for the gateway 150 for gateway 150 for cybernetics 50/50 for warpgate 150/100 for twilight 100/250 for dt shrine 125/125 per dt 100 for proxy pyon and still they do less damage to a mineral line. that's 975/525 in case you were keeping score. And Archons can still be used as part of the main army.
LOL wow you are ridiculous.
On August 09 2011 23:46 Olsson wrote:
I just think it's funny. Because zerg got a change to infestor a month after they learned how to use it. The 7 months before the infestor buff protoss vs zerg was so one-sided and zerg couldn't really do much. People here are retarded because they use an argument that works against themselves. For example "Zerg didn't change style they only rid roach hydra corruptor a-move into deathball". Well Zerg has changed style now but protoss havn't. Again use the fucking anti-caster feedback is soo good. One HT can take four infestors with feedback, HT is also cheaper than infestors.
I agree that protoss doesn't really have that good harassment options though they have the fastest units in the game (pheonix, upgraded warp prism). I think it mostly needs a metagame shift like zerg had. Alot of zergs still win vs protosses without infestors (Losira, Nestea) because they got the timings figured out and just outplay their protoss opponent.
Lmao wtf does this have to do with anything. The zergs in this thread are killing me, they came into a protoss discussion thread to give us the equivalent people telling zerg "use nydus more" before they were buffed.
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EPT
