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On August 09 2011 23:09 dani` wrote:
The biggest thing I notice is how hard it is to punish greedy builds by Zerg / Terran. Many people would say 'you have 4 gate what are you talking about', but I don't want to all-in, just punish and get ahead. I want reliable harass / scouting options early game. I'm looking at stuff like Reaper / Helion / Banshee which provide excellent harassment options while allowing regular macro behind it, unlike 4 gate which has to do massive damage or outright kill to be considered 'viable'.
Luckily, Dustin Browder recently also mentioned something about a possible new harassment unit in HotS so I hope they will indeed happen =)
I sometimes dream about a harass unit man...In mid - late game protoss has no reliable harass units that deal massive damage for a short period (Ex.Reaver in BW)
Storm drops arent cost effective - if u get caught u die
And pretty much if u storm workers u wont have storm to stop pushes..
simply
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On August 09 2011 23:07 Olsson wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I think this is a balance whine thread beneath the layer. You're saying that MC goes in Up&Down but it's not logical because he's a good player henceforth the "what??". It's because he just like Jinro probably isn't motivated to practice and isn't as good right now anymore. In my opinion protosses have been doing the same thing for a year now and they need to start doing drops and more aggressive things.
yeah, but toss drops are weak anyway coupled with the warp prism and time taken out of the robo, makes toss have the weakest drop options in the game.
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Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"...
Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle...
I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever...
I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
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Let's see how GSL August plays out first. We have some results, and the next few days should be very telling about the power (or lack thereof) of Protoss.
+ Show Spoiler +So far the only Protoss to beat a Terran (in Code S or A) was Tassadar beating the foreigner Fenix, whose skill level is definitely below that of top Koreans and vanvanth won one game in his best of three Code A match vs GanZi.
Extreme, Tails, and MC were by Terrans eliminated winning no games.
The only PvZ so far was Inca vs DRG, and DRG won 2-0.
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It's really sad how toss was once considered to be the strongest race which everyone was bitching about.
Contains spoiler:
+ Show Spoiler +MC was completely helpless against both MVP and Noblesse. The 1-1-1 all in esp is almost impossible to defend.
I think the problem lies in the lack of mobility of toss ground units. Without FFs, toss is dead against Z. Same goes with T, when the MMM ball can just kite like there's no tomorrow, and all it takes are a couple of ghosts to render sentries worthless.
It has been increasingly frustrating to ladder as a P. Looking to race switch soon.
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On August 09 2011 23:10 Roggay wrote:
You need to learn to use spoilers if you don't want to be warned/banned.
Also, I don't think this thread is a particularly good idea.
And the fact that your name is "Crying" is pretty ironic.
I think that thread is not a balance whine its just a discussion between protosses who are finding they race in bad state
Its pretty bad seeing how progamers are doing..
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whoever is suggesting carriers as a solution to the current state of the pvx metagame is implying that a serious carrier buff is required.
seriously, 120 seconds build time???? ugh... and they're slow as hell... and interceptors no longer are healed when returning to the carrier...
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On August 09 2011 23:11 theBALLS wrote:It's really sad how toss was once considered to be the strongest race which everyone was bitching about. Contains spoiler: + Show Spoiler +MC was completely helpless against both MVP and Noblesse. The 1-1-1 all in esp is almost impossible to defend.
I didn't get the chance to watch the match, but I have a question:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On August 09 2011 23:11 theBALLS wrote:It's really sad how toss was once considered to be the strongest race which everyone was bitching about. Contains spoiler: + Show Spoiler +MC was completely helpless against both MVP and Noblesse. The 1-1-1 all in esp is almost impossible to defend. I think the problem lies in the lack of mobility of toss ground units. Without FFs, toss is dead against Z. Same goes with T, when the MMM ball can just kite like there's no tomorrow, and all it takes are a couple of ghosts to render sentries worthless. It has been increasingly frustrating to ladder as a P. Looking to race switch soon.
I haven't seen the games yet...but by skimming the LR thread + Show Spoiler +Didn't MVP just contain MC and Nobelesse went for a double medivac allin drop?
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All of our problems stem from the early game it seems. Early pushes from terrans are ripping us apart because no one is going to four gate to defend extreme greediness of teching to 1-1-1 and we have one less warp in to face all-ins, any unit lost in the beginning is a complete game changer. Harder to expo versus zerg because warpgate timing makes 3gate expo (which isn't that great anyway) still unsafe versus roach/ling allin. Zerg can play greedy as possible without threat of extreme early pressure and secure an extremely quick third now that 6 gate timings have been largely figured out. Forge fast expand is also worthless now as we can see from Ret/Nestea/Losira style response of an extremely fast third where they can get 160 supply of roaches and 60-70 drones compared to a 70-80 supply protoss.
The warpgate nerf did nothing to change PvP. i don't even know what that pylon nerf did besides make building placement and cannoning against mutas a bit more annoying. Zergs and terrans figured out how to defend it before that at the higher levels. It may have elevated a lot of people on ladder to somewhere they shouldn't have been, but it also destroyed protoss early game in the higher levels.
PvT seems completely fine and skill-based in the midgame. PvZ always feels like you are behind now that there is no viable harassment options and the threat of your early expo getting all-inned.
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On August 09 2011 23:10 Kevan wrote:
Give it time. If it still seems imbalanced then it will probably get fixed.
None of these issues are new, they're just being brought to greater light lately.
The 1-1-1 is not new, reliance on FF and lack of harass/build punishment is not particularly new - all things created by the limitation of 4gate/VR/HT etc.
I agree that more time is always helpful to gain reliable results, but people aren't just starting to bring these things up.
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yeah protoss is getting killed left and right. Now that our different strats have been figured out.
+ Show Spoiler + Also, how many toss are left in the GSL now?
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On August 09 2011 23:11 theBALLS wrote:It's really sad how toss was once considered to be the strongest race which everyone was bitching about. Contains spoiler: + Show Spoiler +MC was completely helpless against both MVP and Noblesse. The 1-1-1 all in esp is almost impossible to defend. I think the problem lies in the lack of mobility of toss ground units. Without FFs, toss is dead against Z. Same goes with T, when the MMM ball can just kite like there's no tomorrow, and all it takes are a couple of ghosts to render sentries worthless. It has been increasingly frustrating to ladder as a P. Looking to race switch soon.
I find laddering as P frustrating too.And if u ask yes i can loose ,i loose regularly 10 in a row,and then win 10 in a row ...SC2 is not the only game i loose in ,but others game i loose i see my mistakes and try to fix them , but in sc2 i feel that i couldn't have doen better to this exact period when i die.Its just like im reading newspapper and cant find a gramatical mistake...?!
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On August 09 2011 23:10 Roggay wrote:
You need to learn to use spoilers if you don't want to be warned/banned.
Also, I don't think this thread is a particularly good idea.
And the fact that your name is "Crying" is pretty ironic.
I think it's not bad to have all protoss-QQ in one thread...admins could go easy on our poor souls here and ban the harsher in all the other threads. Kinda like the "things that make me rage" thread.
On topic: I seriously think we need some sick strong cheeses, like 3 gate voidray into DT...or dunno. Something that changes the metagame HARD, so that terrans will stop all-inn-ing at 10 mins and zergs will stop droning till 10 mins.
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On August 09 2011 23:10 Stijx wrote:
Now see, this kind of leaves me stumped too... Zerg used to be the "QQ" race and now that they're all using infestors they tell everyone else "well work it out"...
Now Zerg changed their position by using a previously unused unit (and still have a couple of unused utilities), but here I can't help but feel that Protoss actually doesn't have anything unexplored. The only way I've been beating Ghosts and Infestors recently is by putting my HTs in a warp prism and bringing them in from a different angle...
I think about our other units (Carriers and the Mothership) and they are just not worth the investment. In long macro games I only seem to win because an opponent messes up or forgets to inject larvae for ever and ever...
I think Protoss needs a new utility, something more efficient for harass, or maybe just give the Warp Prism some more health. Speed-Prisms are pretty boss.
They could perhaps consider removing the upgrade for prisms and have included passively.
Z harass: bane drops, ling run bys, burrowed infestor, etc
T harass: Dropships so strong esp with stim
P harass: DTs? with a detector is rendered completely useless. Phoenixes not always feasible. Warp prisms so weak, also no high DPS units to drop them like marines.
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On August 09 2011 23:14 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 09 2011 23:10 Roggay wrote:
You need to learn to use spoilers if you don't want to be warned/banned.
Also, I don't think this thread is a particularly good idea.
And the fact that your name is "Crying" is pretty ironic. I think it's not bad to have all protoss-QQ in one thread...admins could go easy on our poor souls here and ban the harsher in all the other threads. Kinda like the "things that make me rage" thread. On topic: I seriously think we need some sick strong cheeses, like 3 gate voidray into DT...or dunno. Something that changes the metagame HARD, so that terrans will stop all-inn-ing at 10 mins and zergs will stop droning till 10 mins.
I don't see why admins should close this thread,where i can discuss this thing if not in TeamLiquid?
I don't wanna go to the bnet forums where is full of kids,i just want to hear different suggestions and draw a conclusion out of them,nothing else
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why do i totally expect to see this kinda thread after watching today's gsl XD
i believe that atm korean knows that terran is the race that you can exploit and abuse so much to get the win, which is why there are so many pro korean terrans in the first place. fix? Lets talk about that in 2013 when LotV comes out.
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dont worry if there is 15 terrans and Nestea in GSl thens oemthign will be done!!!!
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+ Show Spoiler +mc went hallucination vs a raven.
pretty sure hallucinations when in detection get lower attack priority from the tanks and are wasted space. can correct me if i'm wrong, haven't played in awhile.
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EPT
