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Australia7069 Posts
On July 04 2011 16:14 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:12 Baarn wrote:On July 04 2011 16:10 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:09 Baarn wrote:On July 04 2011 16:07 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote:
thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison. You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans... that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts. gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here. i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior. That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this? ? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money. i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove. Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
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United States4053 Posts
I don't know where you're getting your stream viewer count numbers. I don't think TL has hit the thousands on a pro BW stream since the last MSL finals, and even then I'm not sure it went above 600.
You state that nevake and TL are getting a lot of viewership with VODs and streams, but you suggest that the way to improve that is to get rid of it entirely. Remember what happened when Jon747's account was shut down? Closing nevake's VOD base would cause double that, even with less people, because there's pretty much nobody else to fall back on.
Wishful thinking at best, I think. The foreign Broodwar scene isn't going to grow much (if at all). What's healthiest is to just keep everything as is, because all of the foreign BW followers are familiar with the existing system.
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Australia7069 Posts
On July 04 2011 16:15 infinitestory wrote:
I don't know where you're getting your stream viewer count numbers. I don't think TL has hit the thousands on a pro BW stream since the last MSL finals, and even then I'm not sure it went above 600.
You state that nevake and TL are getting a lot of viewership with VODs and streams, but you suggest that the way to improve that is to get rid of it entirely. Remember what happened when Jon747's account was shut down? Closing nevake's VOD base would cause double that, even with less people, because there's pretty much nobody else to fall back on.
Wishful thinking at best, I think. The foreign Broodwar scene isn't going to grow much (if at all). What's healthiest is to just keep everything as is, because all of the foreign BW followers are familiar with the existing system.
your numbers are wrong with infitestory. Last MSL finals had about 3-4k on the 3 streams that were up. Regular PL games get about 1k
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On July 04 2011 16:15 ligas wrote:
i feel the reason they're pushing for china is the advertisers--mmo developers who have a large chinese following. no matter how big the english audience may be--if they aren't playing those games it wouldn't make sense to invest.
who knows? maybe scbw in china would be so big that part of the return in investment could go into donated english casting just to placate the vocal english audience.
one thing i've removed from the article is the idea that Pro BW can survive as strictly a spectator sport. I actually went and did a poll last monday on the Woongjin vs ACE game. The poll asked for gender and whether they play games or not, and as expected, many were women and most watchers were not RTS players.
That poll only had 50 people though so i need to poll again. Maybe at a playoff game.
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On July 04 2011 16:14 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:12 Baarn wrote:On July 04 2011 16:10 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:09 Baarn wrote:On July 04 2011 16:07 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote:
thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison. You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans... that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts. gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here. i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior. That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this? ? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money. i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove. Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
You can get vods from ogn and mbcgame already. still confused why you are bothering?
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this isn't going to be an overly productive post, but i would just like to express how much i miss the english GOMTV casting
also how blunt tasteless was with the players. "so baxter (killer) is new on the scene and he's 1-14. to say the least he kind of sucks"
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On July 04 2011 16:07 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote:
thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison. You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans... that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
I don't watch gomtv and I don't want any of your stupid ideas. Do not post this on behalf of the foreign community. period.
Shall we make a poll?
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Poll: IS the OP's suggestion something the foreign community wants?No (124) 89% Yes (15) 11% 139 total votes Your vote: IS the OP's suggestion something the foreign community wants? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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United States4053 Posts
On July 04 2011 16:17 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:15 infinitestory wrote:
I don't know where you're getting your stream viewer count numbers. I don't think TL has hit the thousands on a pro BW stream since the last MSL finals, and even then I'm not sure it went above 600.
You state that nevake and TL are getting a lot of viewership with VODs and streams, but you suggest that the way to improve that is to get rid of it entirely. Remember what happened when Jon747's account was shut down? Closing nevake's VOD base would cause double that, even with less people, because there's pretty much nobody else to fall back on.
Wishful thinking at best, I think. The foreign Broodwar scene isn't going to grow much (if at all). What's healthiest is to just keep everything as is, because all of the foreign BW followers are familiar with the existing system. your numbers are wrong with infitestory. Last MSL finals had about 3-4k on the 3 streams that were up. Regular PL games get about 1k
Ok, I must always be watching the streams with no viewers >____> I haven't seen over 300 on a regular PL game in several months.
My point stands, though. The viewership numbers in the articles are questionable.
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On July 04 2011 16:17 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:15 ligas wrote:
i feel the reason they're pushing for china is the advertisers--mmo developers who have a large chinese following. no matter how big the english audience may be--if they aren't playing those games it wouldn't make sense to invest.
who knows? maybe scbw in china would be so big that part of the return in investment could go into donated english casting just to placate the vocal english audience. one thing i've removed from the article is the idea that Pro BW can survive as strictly a spectator sport. I actually went and did a poll last monday on the Woongjin vs ACE game. The poll asked for gender and whether they play games or not, and as expected, many were women and most watchers were not RTS players. That poll only had 50 people though so i need to poll again. Maybe at a playoff game.
Isnt that a problem, you couldn't poll more than 50 people at a game, thats not the numbers a business wants to hear when you're expanding to a market, it raises the question of how you are going to survive as a spectator sport without an established fanbase willing to go to games, or a media venue to advertise. Spectator sports makes money off of advertising, and I dont see English companies willing to sponser e-sport teams given the numbers. NBA fills up stadiums with regular games, right now, even with how popular SC is in korea, you cant even fill up an auditorium.
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Australia7069 Posts
On July 04 2011 16:22 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:17 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:15 infinitestory wrote:
I don't know where you're getting your stream viewer count numbers. I don't think TL has hit the thousands on a pro BW stream since the last MSL finals, and even then I'm not sure it went above 600.
You state that nevake and TL are getting a lot of viewership with VODs and streams, but you suggest that the way to improve that is to get rid of it entirely. Remember what happened when Jon747's account was shut down? Closing nevake's VOD base would cause double that, even with less people, because there's pretty much nobody else to fall back on.
Wishful thinking at best, I think. The foreign Broodwar scene isn't going to grow much (if at all). What's healthiest is to just keep everything as is, because all of the foreign BW followers are familiar with the existing system. your numbers are wrong with infitestory. Last MSL finals had about 3-4k on the 3 streams that were up. Regular PL games get about 1k Ok, I must always be watching the streams with no viewers >____> I haven't seen over 300 on a regular PL game in several months. My point stands, though. The viewership numbers in the articles are questionable.
I agree with you there.
Sure there might be 300 on the stream you're on, but there will be 600 on the other. it depends which set is more popular(ie: which one has skt in it)
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On July 04 2011 16:15 Kiante wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:14 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:12 Baarn wrote:On July 04 2011 16:10 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:09 Baarn wrote:On July 04 2011 16:07 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote:
thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison. You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans... that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts. gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here. i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior. That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this? ? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money. i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove. Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer. Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
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On July 04 2011 16:07 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote:
thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison. You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans... that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
I play SC2, but I don't watch GSL, at all. They force me to install warez, stream is so slow and doesn't work half the time its just not worth the money. Not letting GSL be viewed on youtube totally killed my interest in it.
If BW got taken off youtube you will 100% kill the foreign BW scene immediately because the barrier to entry will be even greater. We are getting new blood from the SC2 scene because of how much easier it is to watch BW than SC2, you can watch it for free on youtube. If anything the youtube vods could be paid through advertising (on youtube).
All the epic moments that happened in BW will be gone, these are the vods that bring new blood to the scene and spawn threads like Ver's savior thread that promote players to pay more attention to BW.
Even though Korean casters are way more awesome, we already have volunteer english casters too.
The foreign BW scene will not improve at all with your changes. With all sports growth came first, money second, not the other way around. You can see this happening with SC2. We need to make BW as accessible and free as possible in order to continue its growth. Who knows, a foreigner may decide he wants to go pro in BW instead of SC2, if you make it impossible to watch, this will never happen.
Please do not post this.
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On July 04 2011 16:18 Baarn wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:14 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:12 Baarn wrote:On July 04 2011 16:10 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:09 Baarn wrote:On July 04 2011 16:07 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote:
thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison. You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans... that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts. gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here. i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior. That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this? ? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money. i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove. Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer. You can get vods from ogn and mbcgame already. still confused why you are bothering?
u cant get it from mbcgame.
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On July 04 2011 16:22 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:17 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:15 infinitestory wrote:
I don't know where you're getting your stream viewer count numbers. I don't think TL has hit the thousands on a pro BW stream since the last MSL finals, and even then I'm not sure it went above 600.
You state that nevake and TL are getting a lot of viewership with VODs and streams, but you suggest that the way to improve that is to get rid of it entirely. Remember what happened when Jon747's account was shut down? Closing nevake's VOD base would cause double that, even with less people, because there's pretty much nobody else to fall back on.
Wishful thinking at best, I think. The foreign Broodwar scene isn't going to grow much (if at all). What's healthiest is to just keep everything as is, because all of the foreign BW followers are familiar with the existing system. your numbers are wrong with infitestory. Last MSL finals had about 3-4k on the 3 streams that were up. Regular PL games get about 1k Ok, I must always be watching the streams with no viewers >____> I haven't seen over 300 on a regular PL game in several months. My point stands, though. The viewership numbers in the articles are questionable.
i'm talking about combined. Like kiante + GTR or whatever.
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Australia7069 Posts
On July 04 2011 16:23 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:15 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:14 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:12 Baarn wrote:On July 04 2011 16:10 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:09 Baarn wrote:On July 04 2011 16:07 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote:
thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison. You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans... that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts. gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here. i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior. That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this? ? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money. i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove. Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer. Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods. well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
You know what companies do when you shove copyright violation into their face? they shut it down.
You might have good intentions, but all you're going to do here is get the great resources we have right now shut down
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On July 04 2011 16:24 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 16:07 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote:On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote:
thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison. You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans... that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts. I play SC2, but I don't watch GSL, at all. They force me to install warez, stream is so slow and doesn't work half the time its just not worth the money. Not letting GSL be viewed on youtube totally killed my interest in it. If BW got taken off youtube you will 100% kill the foreign BW scene immediately because the barrier to entry will be even greater. We are getting new blood from the SC2 scene because of how much easier it is to watch BW than SC2, you can watch it for free on youtube. If anything the youtube vods could be paid through advertising (on youtube). All the epic moments that happened in BW will be gone, these are the vods that bring new blood to the scene and spawn threads like Ver's savior thread that promote players to pay more attention to BW. Even though Korean casters are way more awesome, we already have volunteer english casters too. The foreign BW scene will not improve at all with your changes. With all sports growth came first, money second, not the other way around. You can see this happening with SC2. We need to make BW as accessible and free as possible in order to continue its growth. Who knows, a foreigner may decide he wants to go pro in BW instead of SC2, if you make it impossible to watch, this will never happen. Please do not post this.
i think it should be free. But i dont think it should be on youtube. Youtube does nothing for KESPA. For kespa to run a free model, it needs a lot of clicks and it needs those clicks to go directly to kespa. Registration makes these clicks even more accurate as u can get accurate demographic numbers.
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So... You can benefit without hurting yourself, OR you can hurt yourself for no additional benefit.
Why choose the latter?
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Seriously you are doing this on behalf of the foreign community, but the foreign community doesn't want it. You are standing for nothing, please stop.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50704 Posts
On July 04 2011 15:55 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 15:52 okum wrote:On July 04 2011 15:42 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote:
The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right? Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective. A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen: * The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site. these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
please do share with us what sort of plan you have in mind.
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EPT
