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On July 04 2011 15:48 maximuspita wrote:
What I would REALLY appreciate would be subtitles for the Korean casters. I remember when supernovamaniac did some in real time and their understand of the game was unbelievable. Kim Carrier was basically predicting every single move from the match(plus he was having an orgasm because BeSt made a comeback with carriers).
What do you guys think?
Subtitles are okay, however they end up being distracting a lot of the time. And yes, the casters are absurdly smart, it's pretty crazy.
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Theres a very good reasons to pick China instead of English speaking nations, first is location, proximity to South Korea makes a lot of logistic problems such as time zone differences easier to deal with. Second, e-sports is already well established in China, electronic gaming is officially listed as a viable sport, and WCG has proven to draw huge numbers when its held in china. In addition, Chinese media regularly broadcasts e-sports on television. Simply stated, China has created a community and a fanbase much more attractive to kespa than English speaking nations have. Over here its recreation, over there its a business.
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On July 04 2011 15:49 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 15:45 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 15:43 moopie wrote:On July 04 2011 15:40 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 15:37 moopie wrote:First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by
> Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams.
> Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams. Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter. This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it. I understand this will be a contentious issue for a lot of people. But there has to be a give and take. We are trying to get Kespa to invest money into the market by legitimately hiring English casters. They're only going to do that if there's some hope for a profit motive, and eliminating streams/youtube channels is a part of that. Yes but english casters in exchange for pay to view streams hurts the community as a whole. Out of the thousands of foreigners that still follow broodwar, maybe 10-20% would be willing to pay monthly (or per-league) to watch it. You will essentially kill off the majority of a community that is already a shadow of its former self, and for what? So we can get english commentators that a lot of people don't care for anyway? Seems like a very bad idea. A move like charging foreigners for bw will kill of the scene. This plan doesn't necessarily equate to a MUST PAY proposition. I'm saying that IF kespa wants to even think about a pay-per-view model (which I don't explicitly recommend), then it has to have a centralized VOD site to start with. In other words, unless Kespa directs those hits towards its own site, it has no foundation to do anything. We both know that if it came to cease and desists and taking down all restreamers and community vods, a pay to watch model will follow in an instant. Its not even a "well maybe they'll charge", they will. They will do it to pay for their own bandwidth which will now need to be used up since youtube is out of the question, pay for English commentators and whatever other bells and whistles. The english speaking foreign community is not going to grow, not enough to matter. No offense, but I am completely against your suggestions. Now I'll take my leave :>
well you are definitely entitled to your opinion and your fears are understandable. I don't think they should make it a pay-per-view service, and you do make a leap of logic by automatically concluding that they will. My hope is that the argument about 50 million clicks is enough to convince Kespa that to control their own content but don't charge for it. 50 million clicks + a mandatory registration system can be, I hope, be valuable enough in itself that they won't need to charge. That is the hope anyway.
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On July 04 2011 15:42 d_so wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote:
The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right? Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe.
* Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM.
* The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE.
* It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM).
* Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
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Australia7069 Posts
Please dont encourage kespa to shut down nevake. Are you fucking insane. get the fuck out of here. I realise fomos hates TL, but trying to shut down our streams and vods for some "centralised vod archive", which would only end up either charging money, or being super laggy...etc etc.
look at gom's sc2 stuff. They have the entire foreign SC2 market looking at them and they had so much server instability etc. how good do you think the service is going to be for 1/10th of the viewer population.
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On July 04 2011 15:47 Torenhire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 15:37 moopie wrote:First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by
> Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams.
> Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams. Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter. This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it. If these are the suggestions I have only one thing to say: ATTN KeSPA: Keep ignoring the English market! I'm right behind moopie... The Korean casters are better than any English ones I've heard, anyways...I prefer them over any English cast, you don't even have to know what they are saying to catch onto their energy and hype and all the craziness. Eliminating streams / VODs??? What?? I work full time in EST, I watch probably 90% of my Brood War via VODs/YT, and then catch Streams on the weekend...god only knows what KESPA would do anyways, what happens if they end up pulling a GomTV and charge for VOD service or whatever. I'd like the pro BW scene to remain as it is.
I have to agree. People who currently watch BW don't really give a damn that it is casted in Korean and personally I would still favor that option over English.
I don't have strong feelings for Kespa. The way things are right now aren't perfect, but good enough. We (usually) have streamers covering all the matches VODs are uploaded in a timely matter.
I think the OPs post is of noble effort but comes off a little as "hey! there is large group of fans you could potentially exploit but taking down VODs and restreamers."
I mean do you truly think Kespa would offer the same free content we have been getting for years now?
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On July 04 2011 15:52 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 15:42 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote:
The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right? Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective. A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen: * The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
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On July 04 2011 15:52 okum wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 15:42 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote:
The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right? Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective. A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen: * The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
This is exactly my thoughts. Free service that competes with current ones. There is no reason to destroy all the effort current foreigner community has put in to this. Its only going to drive those viewers away.
Even better would be if Kespa did cooperate with foreigner community, like approving nevake account so that its safe haven for broodwar history.
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On July 04 2011 15:54 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 15:47 Torenhire wrote:On July 04 2011 15:37 moopie wrote:First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by
> Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams.
> Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams. Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter. This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it. If these are the suggestions I have only one thing to say: ATTN KeSPA: Keep ignoring the English market! I'm right behind moopie... The Korean casters are better than any English ones I've heard, anyways...I prefer them over any English cast, you don't even have to know what they are saying to catch onto their energy and hype and all the craziness. Eliminating streams / VODs??? What?? I work full time in EST, I watch probably 90% of my Brood War via VODs/YT, and then catch Streams on the weekend...god only knows what KESPA would do anyways, what happens if they end up pulling a GomTV and charge for VOD service or whatever. I'd like the pro BW scene to remain as it is. I have to agree. People who currently watch BW don't really give a damn that it is casted in Korean and personally I would still favor that option over English. I don't have strong feelings for Kespa. The way things are right now aren't perfect, but good enough. We (usually) have streamers covering all the matches VODs are uploaded in a timely matter. I think the OPs post is of noble effort but comes off a little as "hey! there is large group of fans you could potentially exploit but taking down VODs and restreamers." I mean do you truly think Kespa would offer the same free content we have been getting for years now?
i think if anything -- and I've discussed this with several people in the industry -- the Shanghai move represents a desperation that Kespa previously had not shown before. It is the inch they've given and we need to take the mile from it. So yeah, I think Kespa can be convinced to leave it for free if they see value in it. It's up to us to convince that there is value.
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On July 04 2011 15:37 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by
> Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams.
> Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams. Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter. This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
It does hurt the foreign scene but this is supposed to be at the benefit of getting better video quality, full time casters and hopefully more additional extra content most of the community doesn't have access to but Kespa does.
I pay for GOM precisely because the quality of the combination of those factor;s but the most important factor I didn't mention is the quality of the progamer matches.
Kespa is going to have to exert the same control as GOM has done to bring the money in and the foreign community is going to have to focus on foreign tournaments which is obviously not practical because of the huge migration to SC2. The only option to make that scene viable is to start a grassroots campaign to revitalize the foreign tournament scene.
So the question really becomes is the foreign scene better off without Kespa's involvement or not?
For the most part it is not better off. We get to watch live matches for free and vods are being made. On top of that what makes the SC2 pro scene so great is that GOM and the foreign scene are complimentary to each other in generating money that allows sustainable living. Kespa exerting more control and the foreign scene so focused on SC2 ensures revenue is generated for Kespa only which doesn't hurt the community but doesn't make the community better off like GOM does.
OTOH having so many vods on youtube has become very risky after seeing what happened to Jon747's account and if nevake gets nuked a lot of value will get lost crippling half the reason the current situation with the foreign community is acceptable and preferable.
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On July 04 2011 15:57 Jienny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 15:52 okum wrote:On July 04 2011 15:42 d_so wrote:On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote:
The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right? Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective. A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen: * The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site. This is exactly my thoughts. Free service that competes with current ones. There is no reason to destroy all the effort current foreigner community has put in to this. Its only going to drive those viewers away. Even better would be if Kespa did cooperate with foreigner community, like approving nevake account so that its safe haven for broodwar history.
Even if they approve nevake though, it doesn't give them the registered user base or the clicks to market to advertisers. The hope is for something like Comedy Central did with the Daily show. Take it off youtube, force everyone to watch it on Comedy central, then monetize the popularity with advertisements.
Also, one more thing.. just cuz we recommend English casters don't mean Korean caster VODS will suddenly be unavailable.
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Oh...maybe I should've read the article because I have never in my entire life heard one English caster that makes me want to watch...
Go Korean or go home. I just want to be able to have a site to stream from because it's hard to set up as of current.
It's like soccer. Spanish FTW
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I don't agree with having a pay per view model at all. If that is the case I have my account at OGN and can watch all the content in Korean for free anyways. How I like all the other propositions made in the article.
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On July 04 2011 16:01 TheGlassface wrote:
Oh...maybe I should've read the article because I have never in my entire life heard one English caster that makes me want to watch...
Go Korean or go home. I just want to be able to have a site to stream from because it's hard to set up as of current.
It's like soccer. Spanish FTW
tasteless i thought was a pretty sexy caster when he was casting for GOMTV itnernational
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On July 04 2011 15:53 Kiante wrote:
Please dont encourage kespa to shut down nevake. Are you fucking insane. get the fuck out of here. I realise fomos hates TL, but trying to shut down our streams and vods for some "centralised vod archive", which would only end up either charging money, or being super laggy...etc etc.
look at gom's sc2 stuff. They have the entire foreign SC2 market looking at them and they had so much server instability etc. how good do you think the service is going to be for 1/10th of the viewer population.
Absolutely agree with this. The stream-/vod-system is perfectly fine as it is and I really like the commentators. There is no need for change.
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Australia7069 Posts
If it aint broke. Dont fix it. Right now us foreigners watch all of the broodwar we want. we had a fantastic archive. and its all community driven. you're suggesting we should break all that and get a company to do it all. cuz it'll be just a good right?
lol. i really hope kespa ignores you
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On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote:
The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
...seriously. What?
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Does Nevake have it's vods archived somewhere? It would be a shame if it got shut down like jon747...
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I see your point, and the logic behind your suggestions, but the difficulty that present time-zones, the age of the game in a market in which everything becomes old after 5 min. (an exaggeration, but you get my point) might be too much. SC:BW is awesome, but I don't think there is much KeSPA can get from the English market, and whatever they can give us wouldn't be immensely beneficial as we (those who still watch BW) already got used to things being the way they are and are comfortable with it. I started playing BW when I was 8; I'm 21 now and I'm finding it harder and harder to find time to follow proleague. I just watch the recommended matches for SKT games nowadays. I love the spirit, but I don't see it as being a worthy investment for them.
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No offense dude but the english market--- it doesnt really exist. Compared to korean hundreds of thousands of viewers, there is practically 0 viewers in western scene. The bw industry is struggling to minimize losses already, profits hard to dream of even in korea. With the low viewership of western scene, in this situation not wise to invest in.
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EPT
