Note: The following is an article I wrote for Fomos. The goal is to convince Kespa to market towards the English speaking market, including hiring English casters. This article will also be posted in Korean. Please, if you feel strongly about this we encourage you to share your thoughts!
Underneath the controversy surrounding the Shanghai Proleague Finals lies this sensible piece of reasoning: Kespa wants to export Starcraft to a broader, international audience. With a population 28 times larger than Korea and relatively virgin to Broodwar, China represents such an audience. The substantial benefits of converting the Chinese market is the reason Kespa is taking on so much risk, both financially and of good will.
But if Kespa is willing to risk so much for China, it should also look to reach the English speakers worldwide. After all, English is spoken in over a 100 different countries and natively by almost 500 million people. As a second or third language, the number of English speakers ranks first in the world. Compared to China, Kespa could potentially reach as many people by investing in the English market, but with far less risk.
On July 04 2011 15:35 BLinD-RawR wrote: I did not know that you were Daniel So(well d_so makes so much sense now :p)...very nice article,I was reading it while posting the MST groups thread.
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
If these are the suggestions I have only one thing to say:
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
I understand this will be a contentious issue for a lot of people. But there has to be a give and take. We are trying to get Kespa to invest money into the market by legitimately hiring English casters. They're only going to do that if there's some hope for a profit motive, and eliminating streams/youtube channels is a part of that.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
I understand this will be a contentious issue for a lot of people. But there has to be a give and take. We are trying to get Kespa to invest money into the market by legitimately hiring English casters. They're only going to do that if there's some hope for a profit motive, and eliminating streams/youtube channels is a part of that.
Yes but english casters in exchange for pay to view streams hurts the community as a whole. Out of the thousands of foreigners that still follow broodwar, maybe 10-20% would be willing to pay monthly (or per-league) to watch it. You will essentially kill off the majority of a community that is already a shadow of its former self, and for what? So we can get english commentators that a lot of people don't care for anyway?
Seems like a very bad idea. A move like charging foreigners for bw will kill of the scene.
On July 04 2011 15:42 maximuspita wrote: But I like having a repository of VODs to watch historic matches that the older TLers talk about all the time...
hopefully if they take our suggestions those VODs will still be available, but on a Kespa official site instead of a youtube one. In other words, the repository should still exist, but in a way that lets Kespa get some hits
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
It is too late for BW in the "english" scene, SC2 is the novelty, so it would be very difficult to attract new people to the BW side, and not having the streams in Korean , wtf, I dont really like where it is going to.
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
I understand this will be a contentious issue for a lot of people. But there has to be a give and take. We are trying to get Kespa to invest money into the market by legitimately hiring English casters. They're only going to do that if there's some hope for a profit motive, and eliminating streams/youtube channels is a part of that.
Yes but english casters in exchange for pay to view streams hurts the community as a whole. Out of the thousands of foreigners that still follow broodwar, maybe 10-20% would be willing to pay monthly (or per-league) to watch it. You will essentially kill off the majority of a community that is already a shadow of its former self, and for what? So we can get english commentators that a lot of people don't care for anyway?
Seems like a very bad idea. A move like charging foreigners for bw will kill of the scene.
This plan doesn't necessarily equate to a MUST PAY proposition. I'm saying that IF kespa wants to even think about a pay-per-view model (which I don't explicitly recommend), then it has to have a centralized VOD site to start with. In other words, unless Kespa directs those hits towards its own site, it has no foundation to do anything.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
It is too late for BW in the "english" scene, SC2 is the novelty, so it would be very difficult to attract new people to the BW side, and not having the streams in Korean , wtf, I dont really like where it is going to.
that's kinda why i did this poll a week earlier. it's part of the secondary material I will present if this plan is viewed favorably:
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
If these are the suggestions I have only one thing to say:
ATTN KeSPA: Keep ignoring the English market!
I'm right behind moopie...
The Korean casters are better than any English ones I've heard, anyways...I prefer them over any English cast, you don't even have to know what they are saying to catch onto their energy and hype and all the craziness.
Eliminating streams / VODs??? What?? I work full time in EST, I watch probably 90% of my Brood War via VODs/YT, and then catch Streams on the weekend...god only knows what KESPA would do anyways, what happens if they end up pulling a GomTV and charge for VOD service or whatever.
What I would REALLY appreciate would be subtitles for the Korean casters. I remember when supernovamaniac did some in real time and their understand of the game was unbelievable. Kim Carrier was basically predicting every single move from the match(plus he was having an orgasm because BeSt made a comeback with carriers).
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
I understand this will be a contentious issue for a lot of people. But there has to be a give and take. We are trying to get Kespa to invest money into the market by legitimately hiring English casters. They're only going to do that if there's some hope for a profit motive, and eliminating streams/youtube channels is a part of that.
Yes but english casters in exchange for pay to view streams hurts the community as a whole. Out of the thousands of foreigners that still follow broodwar, maybe 10-20% would be willing to pay monthly (or per-league) to watch it. You will essentially kill off the majority of a community that is already a shadow of its former self, and for what? So we can get english commentators that a lot of people don't care for anyway?
Seems like a very bad idea. A move like charging foreigners for bw will kill of the scene.
This plan doesn't necessarily equate to a MUST PAY proposition. I'm saying that IF kespa wants to even think about a pay-per-view model (which I don't explicitly recommend), then it has to have a centralized VOD site to start with. In other words, unless Kespa directs those hits towards its own site, it has no foundation to do anything.
We both know that if it came to cease and desists and taking down all restreamers and community vods, a pay to watch model will follow in an instant. Its not even a "well maybe they'll charge", they will. They will do it to pay for their own bandwidth which will now need to be used up since youtube is out of the question, pay for English commentators and whatever other bells and whistles. The english speaking foreign community is not going to grow, not enough to matter. No offense, but I am completely against your suggestions. Now I'll take my leave :>
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
If these are the suggestions I have only one thing to say:
ATTN KeSPA: Keep ignoring the English market!
I'm right behind moopie...
The Korean casters are better than any English ones I've heard, anyways...I prefer them over any English cast, you don't even have to know what they are saying to catch onto their energy and hype and all the craziness.
Eliminating streams / VODs??? What?? I work full time in EST, I watch probably 90% of my Brood War via VODs/YT, and then catch Streams on the weekend...god only knows what KESPA would do anyways, what happens if they end up pulling a GomTV and charge for VOD service or whatever.
I'd like the pro BW scene to remain as it is.
hehe you're thinking about it in terms of YOU as a viewer. You're a guy and you understand RTS games. But if Kespa wants growth in the casual viewer market like it has in the Korean viewing audience, it must have a way of communicating to the uneducated viewer what it is they're watching and why it is significant.
On July 04 2011 15:48 maximuspita wrote: What I would REALLY appreciate would be subtitles for the Korean casters. I remember when supernovamaniac did some in real time and their understand of the game was unbelievable. Kim Carrier was basically predicting every single move from the match(plus he was having an orgasm because BeSt made a comeback with carriers).
What do you guys think?
Subtitles are okay, however they end up being distracting a lot of the time. And yes, the casters are absurdly smart, it's pretty crazy.
Theres a very good reasons to pick China instead of English speaking nations, first is location, proximity to South Korea makes a lot of logistic problems such as time zone differences easier to deal with. Second, e-sports is already well established in China, electronic gaming is officially listed as a viable sport, and WCG has proven to draw huge numbers when its held in china. In addition, Chinese media regularly broadcasts e-sports on television. Simply stated, China has created a community and a fanbase much more attractive to kespa than English speaking nations have. Over here its recreation, over there its a business.
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
I understand this will be a contentious issue for a lot of people. But there has to be a give and take. We are trying to get Kespa to invest money into the market by legitimately hiring English casters. They're only going to do that if there's some hope for a profit motive, and eliminating streams/youtube channels is a part of that.
Yes but english casters in exchange for pay to view streams hurts the community as a whole. Out of the thousands of foreigners that still follow broodwar, maybe 10-20% would be willing to pay monthly (or per-league) to watch it. You will essentially kill off the majority of a community that is already a shadow of its former self, and for what? So we can get english commentators that a lot of people don't care for anyway?
Seems like a very bad idea. A move like charging foreigners for bw will kill of the scene.
This plan doesn't necessarily equate to a MUST PAY proposition. I'm saying that IF kespa wants to even think about a pay-per-view model (which I don't explicitly recommend), then it has to have a centralized VOD site to start with. In other words, unless Kespa directs those hits towards its own site, it has no foundation to do anything.
We both know that if it came to cease and desists and taking down all restreamers and community vods, a pay to watch model will follow in an instant. Its not even a "well maybe they'll charge", they will. They will do it to pay for their own bandwidth which will now need to be used up since youtube is out of the question, pay for English commentators and whatever other bells and whistles. The english speaking foreign community is not going to grow, not enough to matter. No offense, but I am completely against your suggestions. Now I'll take my leave :>
well you are definitely entitled to your opinion and your fears are understandable. I don't think they should make it a pay-per-view service, and you do make a leap of logic by automatically concluding that they will. My hope is that the argument about 50 million clicks is enough to convince Kespa that to control their own content but don't charge for it. 50 million clicks + a mandatory registration system can be, I hope, be valuable enough in itself that they won't need to charge. That is the hope anyway.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
Please dont encourage kespa to shut down nevake. Are you fucking insane. get the fuck out of here. I realise fomos hates TL, but trying to shut down our streams and vods for some "centralised vod archive", which would only end up either charging money, or being super laggy...etc etc. look at gom's sc2 stuff. They have the entire foreign SC2 market looking at them and they had so much server instability etc. how good do you think the service is going to be for 1/10th of the viewer population.
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
If these are the suggestions I have only one thing to say:
ATTN KeSPA: Keep ignoring the English market!
I'm right behind moopie...
The Korean casters are better than any English ones I've heard, anyways...I prefer them over any English cast, you don't even have to know what they are saying to catch onto their energy and hype and all the craziness.
Eliminating streams / VODs??? What?? I work full time in EST, I watch probably 90% of my Brood War via VODs/YT, and then catch Streams on the weekend...god only knows what KESPA would do anyways, what happens if they end up pulling a GomTV and charge for VOD service or whatever.
I'd like the pro BW scene to remain as it is.
I have to agree. People who currently watch BW don't really give a damn that it is casted in Korean and personally I would still favor that option over English.
I don't have strong feelings for Kespa. The way things are right now aren't perfect, but good enough. We (usually) have streamers covering all the matches VODs are uploaded in a timely matter.
I think the OPs post is of noble effort but comes off a little as "hey! there is large group of fans you could potentially exploit but taking down VODs and restreamers."
I mean do you truly think Kespa would offer the same free content we have been getting for years now?
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
This is exactly my thoughts. Free service that competes with current ones. There is no reason to destroy all the effort current foreigner community has put in to this. Its only going to drive those viewers away.
Even better would be if Kespa did cooperate with foreigner community, like approving nevake account so that its safe haven for broodwar history.
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
If these are the suggestions I have only one thing to say:
ATTN KeSPA: Keep ignoring the English market!
I'm right behind moopie...
The Korean casters are better than any English ones I've heard, anyways...I prefer them over any English cast, you don't even have to know what they are saying to catch onto their energy and hype and all the craziness.
Eliminating streams / VODs??? What?? I work full time in EST, I watch probably 90% of my Brood War via VODs/YT, and then catch Streams on the weekend...god only knows what KESPA would do anyways, what happens if they end up pulling a GomTV and charge for VOD service or whatever.
I'd like the pro BW scene to remain as it is.
I have to agree. People who currently watch BW don't really give a damn that it is casted in Korean and personally I would still favor that option over English.
I don't have strong feelings for Kespa. The way things are right now aren't perfect, but good enough. We (usually) have streamers covering all the matches VODs are uploaded in a timely matter.
I think the OPs post is of noble effort but comes off a little as "hey! there is large group of fans you could potentially exploit but taking down VODs and restreamers."
I mean do you truly think Kespa would offer the same free content we have been getting for years now?
i think if anything -- and I've discussed this with several people in the industry -- the Shanghai move represents a desperation that Kespa previously had not shown before. It is the inch they've given and we need to take the mile from it. So yeah, I think Kespa can be convinced to leave it for free if they see value in it. It's up to us to convince that there is value.
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
It does hurt the foreign scene but this is supposed to be at the benefit of getting better video quality, full time casters and hopefully more additional extra content most of the community doesn't have access to but Kespa does.
I pay for GOM precisely because the quality of the combination of those factor;s but the most important factor I didn't mention is the quality of the progamer matches.
Kespa is going to have to exert the same control as GOM has done to bring the money in and the foreign community is going to have to focus on foreign tournaments which is obviously not practical because of the huge migration to SC2. The only option to make that scene viable is to start a grassroots campaign to revitalize the foreign tournament scene.
So the question really becomes is the foreign scene better off without Kespa's involvement or not?
For the most part it is not better off. We get to watch live matches for free and vods are being made. On top of that what makes the SC2 pro scene so great is that GOM and the foreign scene are complimentary to each other in generating money that allows sustainable living. Kespa exerting more control and the foreign scene so focused on SC2 ensures revenue is generated for Kespa only which doesn't hurt the community but doesn't make the community better off like GOM does.
OTOH having so many vods on youtube has become very risky after seeing what happened to Jon747's account and if nevake gets nuked a lot of value will get lost crippling half the reason the current situation with the foreign community is acceptable and preferable.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
This is exactly my thoughts. Free service that competes with current ones. There is no reason to destroy all the effort current foreigner community has put in to this. Its only going to drive those viewers away.
Even better would be if Kespa did cooperate with foreigner community, like approving nevake account so that its safe haven for broodwar history.
Even if they approve nevake though, it doesn't give them the registered user base or the clicks to market to advertisers. The hope is for something like Comedy Central did with the Daily show. Take it off youtube, force everyone to watch it on Comedy central, then monetize the popularity with advertisements.
Also, one more thing.. just cuz we recommend English casters don't mean Korean caster VODS will suddenly be unavailable.
Oh...maybe I should've read the article because I have never in my entire life heard one English caster that makes me want to watch... Go Korean or go home. I just want to be able to have a site to stream from because it's hard to set up as of current.
I don't agree with having a pay per view model at all. If that is the case I have my account at OGN and can watch all the content in Korean for free anyways. How I like all the other propositions made in the article.
On July 04 2011 16:01 TheGlassface wrote: Oh...maybe I should've read the article because I have never in my entire life heard one English caster that makes me want to watch... Go Korean or go home. I just want to be able to have a site to stream from because it's hard to set up as of current.
It's like soccer. Spanish FTW
tasteless i thought was a pretty sexy caster when he was casting for GOMTV itnernational
On July 04 2011 15:53 Kiante wrote: Please dont encourage kespa to shut down nevake. Are you fucking insane. get the fuck out of here. I realise fomos hates TL, but trying to shut down our streams and vods for some "centralised vod archive", which would only end up either charging money, or being super laggy...etc etc. look at gom's sc2 stuff. They have the entire foreign SC2 market looking at them and they had so much server instability etc. how good do you think the service is going to be for 1/10th of the viewer population.
Absolutely agree with this. The stream-/vod-system is perfectly fine as it is and I really like the commentators. There is no need for change.
If it aint broke. Dont fix it. Right now us foreigners watch all of the broodwar we want. we had a fantastic archive. and its all community driven. you're suggesting we should break all that and get a company to do it all. cuz it'll be just a good right?
I see your point, and the logic behind your suggestions, but the difficulty that present time-zones, the age of the game in a market in which everything becomes old after 5 min. (an exaggeration, but you get my point) might be too much. SC:BW is awesome, but I don't think there is much KeSPA can get from the English market, and whatever they can give us wouldn't be immensely beneficial as we (those who still watch BW) already got used to things being the way they are and are comfortable with it. I started playing BW when I was 8; I'm 21 now and I'm finding it harder and harder to find time to follow proleague. I just watch the recommended matches for SKT games nowadays. I love the spirit, but I don't see it as being a worthy investment for them.
No offense dude but the english market--- it doesnt really exist. Compared to korean hundreds of thousands of viewers, there is practically 0 viewers in western scene. The bw industry is struggling to minimize losses already, profits hard to dream of even in korea. With the low viewership of western scene, in this situation not wise to invest in.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
This is exactly my thoughts. Free service that competes with current ones. There is no reason to destroy all the effort current foreigner community has put in to this. Its only going to drive those viewers away.
Even better would be if Kespa did cooperate with foreigner community, like approving nevake account so that its safe haven for broodwar history.
Even if they approve nevake though, it doesn't give them the registered user base or the clicks to market to advertisers. The hope is for something like Comedy Central did with the Daily show. Take it off youtube, force everyone to watch it on Comedy central, then monetize the popularity with advertisements.
Also, one more thing.. just cuz we recommend English casters don't mean Korean caster VODS will suddenly be unavailable.
On July 04 2011 16:01 Lucumo wrote: Absolutely agree with this. The stream-/vod-system is perfectly fine as it is and I really like the commentators. There is no need for change.
Actually, even looking at it...can you somehow take down that comment about the nevake channel? I think, without asking Moktira/Nevake, that was kind of rude. TBH. I mean, if he gets his channel shut down over this...I won't be the only one upset about it. I guarantee that.
I honestly prefer the korean casters over hiring on english speaking ones. Things are fine how they are. If MBC would relax and allow us to get direct streams that would be a step in the right direction but a complete overhaul like this seems is unnecessary.
thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
This is exactly my thoughts. Free service that competes with current ones. There is no reason to destroy all the effort current foreigner community has put in to this. Its only going to drive those viewers away.
Even better would be if Kespa did cooperate with foreigner community, like approving nevake account so that its safe haven for broodwar history.
Even if they approve nevake though, it doesn't give them the registered user base or the clicks to market to advertisers. The hope is for something like Comedy Central did with the Daily show. Take it off youtube, force everyone to watch it on Comedy central, then monetize the popularity with advertisements.
That is only matter of cooperation. They can easily provide us VODs that are marketed towards foreigner audience. I can understand that Nevake account is not for marketing basically, but if Kespa truly wants to take steps in to foreigner market, its trough working together of already established community who put effort to make it work. Not the way of marketing which some big companies already are doing, which is force customers to pay if you can.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
Honestly I think your "perfect scenario" you keep hoping for is unattainable with the complete disconnection between both markets. You site stream numbers but they can simply look at SC2 and see 50x the amount of people watching a major SC2 event. VOD numbers have been accumulated over many years and of course have dropped because of, once again, SC2.
The market you keep talking about isn't really there to begin with. The people who still care for BW have no qualms with the current set up. I really fail to see all that you have laid down benefits the current foreign community in anyway.
Your plan is to make sacrifices for a (very) small chance that this will, in the long-run, benefit the community, and I don't agree with that at all.
I don't see any reason for a change. TL is great and covers EVERY need i have for bw. The foreigner BW market won't grow, because there aren't really new players playing the game.
I have moktira / nevake that upload vods sometimes within 10minutes after the game is played. In fantastic quality, youtube loads fast. I hope nothing changes, sorry for the effort you put up, but i can't support your opinion.
Also i would watch the korean casters over EVERY english caster, any time.
On July 04 2011 16:01 Lucumo wrote: Absolutely agree with this. The stream-/vod-system is perfectly fine as it is and I really like the commentators. There is no need for change.
Tell that to jon747 and his subscribers.
Jon747 was taken down because of WCG, it had NOTHING to do with Kespa.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
On July 04 2011 16:07 setzer wrote: Honestly I think your "perfect scenario" you keep hoping for is unattainable with the complete disconnection between both markets. You site stream numbers but they can simply look at SC2 and see 50x the amount of people watching a major SC2 event. VOD numbers have been accumulated over many years and of course have dropped because of, once again, SC2.
The market you keep talking about isn't really there to begin with. The people who still care for BW have no qualms with the current set up. I really fail to see all that you have laid down benefits the current foreign community in anyway.
Your plan is to make sacrifices for a (very) small chance that this will, in the long-run, benefit the community, and I don't agree with that at all.
i agree with a lot of this, but i think there is potential for growth. Those numbers are accumulated over about 5 years; that's still 5 million a year that Kespa could have had but didn't.
Ultimately, I think leaving things the way they are = death of Pro Broodwar. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't expect Kespa to keep bleeding money into a non-growth market (Korea) and losing millions of clicks it could have had from foreigners.
Sorry man, but why should foreign viewers pay when Koreans can watch it for free on TV? If the advertisement model works in Korea, then maybe KeSPA could try to expand to non-Korean viewers.
I'm fine with the way things are. I don't need English casters.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
On July 04 2011 16:10 Simplistik wrote: Sorry man, but why should foreign viewers pay when Koreans can watch it for free on TV? If the advertisement model works in Korea, then maybe KeSPA could try to expand to non-Korean viewers.
I'm fine with the way things are. I don't need English casters.
I'm not in favour of this.
many peoiple seem to think i want a pay per view model. Is the article really that unclear? Should i reword something?
On July 04 2011 16:10 Simplistik wrote: Sorry man, but why should foreign viewers pay when Koreans can watch it for free on TV? If the advertisement model works in Korea, then maybe KeSPA could try to expand to non-Korean viewers.
I'm fine with the way things are. I don't need English casters.
I'm not in favour of this.
the advertisement model doesnt work in Korea. That's why KeSPA is trying to expand to China and MBC and OGN are losing money.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. They don't charge for bw. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
u can PM me ur response btw. I'm not flaming you, i really want to know.
i feel the reason they're pushing for china is the advertisers--mmo developers who have a large chinese following. no matter how big the english audience may be--if they aren't playing those games it wouldn't make sense to invest.
who knows? maybe scbw in china would be so big that part of the return in investment could go into donated english casting just to placate the vocal english audience.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
I don't know where you're getting your stream viewer count numbers. I don't think TL has hit the thousands on a pro BW stream since the last MSL finals, and even then I'm not sure it went above 600.
You state that nevake and TL are getting a lot of viewership with VODs and streams, but you suggest that the way to improve that is to get rid of it entirely. Remember what happened when Jon747's account was shut down? Closing nevake's VOD base would cause double that, even with less people, because there's pretty much nobody else to fall back on.
Wishful thinking at best, I think. The foreign Broodwar scene isn't going to grow much (if at all). What's healthiest is to just keep everything as is, because all of the foreign BW followers are familiar with the existing system.
On July 04 2011 16:15 infinitestory wrote: I don't know where you're getting your stream viewer count numbers. I don't think TL has hit the thousands on a pro BW stream since the last MSL finals, and even then I'm not sure it went above 600.
You state that nevake and TL are getting a lot of viewership with VODs and streams, but you suggest that the way to improve that is to get rid of it entirely. Remember what happened when Jon747's account was shut down? Closing nevake's VOD base would cause double that, even with less people, because there's pretty much nobody else to fall back on.
Wishful thinking at best, I think. The foreign Broodwar scene isn't going to grow much (if at all). What's healthiest is to just keep everything as is, because all of the foreign BW followers are familiar with the existing system.
your numbers are wrong with infitestory. Last MSL finals had about 3-4k on the 3 streams that were up. Regular PL games get about 1k
On July 04 2011 16:15 ligas wrote: i feel the reason they're pushing for china is the advertisers--mmo developers who have a large chinese following. no matter how big the english audience may be--if they aren't playing those games it wouldn't make sense to invest.
who knows? maybe scbw in china would be so big that part of the return in investment could go into donated english casting just to placate the vocal english audience.
one thing i've removed from the article is the idea that Pro BW can survive as strictly a spectator sport. I actually went and did a poll last monday on the Woongjin vs ACE game. The poll asked for gender and whether they play games or not, and as expected, many were women and most watchers were not RTS players.
That poll only had 50 people though so i need to poll again. Maybe at a playoff game.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
You can get vods from ogn and mbcgame already. still confused why you are bothering?
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
I don't watch gomtv and I don't want any of your stupid ideas. Do not post this on behalf of the foreign community. period.
On July 04 2011 16:15 infinitestory wrote: I don't know where you're getting your stream viewer count numbers. I don't think TL has hit the thousands on a pro BW stream since the last MSL finals, and even then I'm not sure it went above 600.
You state that nevake and TL are getting a lot of viewership with VODs and streams, but you suggest that the way to improve that is to get rid of it entirely. Remember what happened when Jon747's account was shut down? Closing nevake's VOD base would cause double that, even with less people, because there's pretty much nobody else to fall back on.
Wishful thinking at best, I think. The foreign Broodwar scene isn't going to grow much (if at all). What's healthiest is to just keep everything as is, because all of the foreign BW followers are familiar with the existing system.
your numbers are wrong with infitestory. Last MSL finals had about 3-4k on the 3 streams that were up. Regular PL games get about 1k
Ok, I must always be watching the streams with no viewers >____> I haven't seen over 300 on a regular PL game in several months.
My point stands, though. The viewership numbers in the articles are questionable.
On July 04 2011 16:15 ligas wrote: i feel the reason they're pushing for china is the advertisers--mmo developers who have a large chinese following. no matter how big the english audience may be--if they aren't playing those games it wouldn't make sense to invest.
who knows? maybe scbw in china would be so big that part of the return in investment could go into donated english casting just to placate the vocal english audience.
one thing i've removed from the article is the idea that Pro BW can survive as strictly a spectator sport. I actually went and did a poll last monday on the Woongjin vs ACE game. The poll asked for gender and whether they play games or not, and as expected, many were women and most watchers were not RTS players.
That poll only had 50 people though so i need to poll again. Maybe at a playoff game.
Isnt that a problem, you couldn't poll more than 50 people at a game, thats not the numbers a business wants to hear when you're expanding to a market, it raises the question of how you are going to survive as a spectator sport without an established fanbase willing to go to games, or a media venue to advertise. Spectator sports makes money off of advertising, and I dont see English companies willing to sponser e-sport teams given the numbers. NBA fills up stadiums with regular games, right now, even with how popular SC is in korea, you cant even fill up an auditorium.
On July 04 2011 16:15 infinitestory wrote: I don't know where you're getting your stream viewer count numbers. I don't think TL has hit the thousands on a pro BW stream since the last MSL finals, and even then I'm not sure it went above 600.
You state that nevake and TL are getting a lot of viewership with VODs and streams, but you suggest that the way to improve that is to get rid of it entirely. Remember what happened when Jon747's account was shut down? Closing nevake's VOD base would cause double that, even with less people, because there's pretty much nobody else to fall back on.
Wishful thinking at best, I think. The foreign Broodwar scene isn't going to grow much (if at all). What's healthiest is to just keep everything as is, because all of the foreign BW followers are familiar with the existing system.
your numbers are wrong with infitestory. Last MSL finals had about 3-4k on the 3 streams that were up. Regular PL games get about 1k
Ok, I must always be watching the streams with no viewers >____> I haven't seen over 300 on a regular PL game in several months.
My point stands, though. The viewership numbers in the articles are questionable.
I agree with you there. Sure there might be 300 on the stream you're on, but there will be 600 on the other. it depends which set is more popular(ie: which one has skt in it)
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
I play SC2, but I don't watch GSL, at all. They force me to install warez, stream is so slow and doesn't work half the time its just not worth the money. Not letting GSL be viewed on youtube totally killed my interest in it.
If BW got taken off youtube you will 100% kill the foreign BW scene immediately because the barrier to entry will be even greater. We are getting new blood from the SC2 scene because of how much easier it is to watch BW than SC2, you can watch it for free on youtube. If anything the youtube vods could be paid through advertising (on youtube).
All the epic moments that happened in BW will be gone, these are the vods that bring new blood to the scene and spawn threads like Ver's savior thread that promote players to pay more attention to BW.
Even though Korean casters are way more awesome, we already have volunteer english casters too.
The foreign BW scene will not improve at all with your changes. With all sports growth came first, money second, not the other way around. You can see this happening with SC2. We need to make BW as accessible and free as possible in order to continue its growth. Who knows, a foreigner may decide he wants to go pro in BW instead of SC2, if you make it impossible to watch, this will never happen.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
You can get vods from ogn and mbcgame already. still confused why you are bothering?
On July 04 2011 16:15 infinitestory wrote: I don't know where you're getting your stream viewer count numbers. I don't think TL has hit the thousands on a pro BW stream since the last MSL finals, and even then I'm not sure it went above 600.
You state that nevake and TL are getting a lot of viewership with VODs and streams, but you suggest that the way to improve that is to get rid of it entirely. Remember what happened when Jon747's account was shut down? Closing nevake's VOD base would cause double that, even with less people, because there's pretty much nobody else to fall back on.
Wishful thinking at best, I think. The foreign Broodwar scene isn't going to grow much (if at all). What's healthiest is to just keep everything as is, because all of the foreign BW followers are familiar with the existing system.
your numbers are wrong with infitestory. Last MSL finals had about 3-4k on the 3 streams that were up. Regular PL games get about 1k
Ok, I must always be watching the streams with no viewers >____> I haven't seen over 300 on a regular PL game in several months.
My point stands, though. The viewership numbers in the articles are questionable.
i'm talking about combined. Like kiante + GTR or whatever.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
You know what companies do when you shove copyright violation into their face? they shut it down. You might have good intentions, but all you're going to do here is get the great resources we have right now shut down
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
I play SC2, but I don't watch GSL, at all. They force me to install warez, stream is so slow and doesn't work half the time its just not worth the money. Not letting GSL be viewed on youtube totally killed my interest in it.
If BW got taken off youtube you will 100% kill the foreign BW scene immediately because the barrier to entry will be even greater. We are getting new blood from the SC2 scene because of how much easier it is to watch BW than SC2, you can watch it for free on youtube. If anything the youtube vods could be paid through advertising (on youtube).
All the epic moments that happened in BW will be gone, these are the vods that bring new blood to the scene and spawn threads like Ver's savior thread that promote players to pay more attention to BW.
Even though Korean casters are way more awesome, we already have volunteer english casters too.
The foreign BW scene will not improve at all with your changes. With all sports growth came first, money second, not the other way around. You can see this happening with SC2. We need to make BW as accessible and free as possible in order to continue its growth. Who knows, a foreigner may decide he wants to go pro in BW instead of SC2, if you make it impossible to watch, this will never happen.
Please do not post this.
i think it should be free. But i dont think it should be on youtube. Youtube does nothing for KESPA. For kespa to run a free model, it needs a lot of clicks and it needs those clicks to go directly to kespa. Registration makes these clicks even more accurate as u can get accurate demographic numbers.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
please do share with us what sort of plan you have in mind.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
You know what companies do when you shove copyright violation into their face? they shut it down. You might have good intentions, but all you're going to do here is get the great resources we have right now shut down
maybe. But one thing I'm confident in is that kespa is not so impenetrable anymore. They will be open to reason if we can prove that we could provide value by listening to us. The shanghai move should be a clear cut sign that kespa is desperate for growth.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
please do share with us what sort of plan you have in mind.
i don't think now's the time and place for that. For now, honestly, it's all about just getting their ear.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
please do share with us what sort of plan you have in mind.
i don't think now's the time and place for that. For now, honestly, it's all about just getting their ear.
d_so:"hi guys, i've got this great plan to expand broodwar! I'm going to get everything good shut down oh and i have a plan to make it all work, dw it'll be fine"
bw community: "get the fuck out"
take a hint dude. we dont want this. please dont post it
On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote: [quote] You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
You know what companies do when you shove copyright violation into their face? they shut it down. You might have good intentions, but all you're going to do here is get the great resources we have right now shut down
maybe. But one thing I'm confident in is that kespa is not so impenetrable anymore. They will be open to reason if we can prove that we could provide value by listening to us. The shanghai move should be a clear cut sign that kespa is desperate for growth.
You expect us to agree to gamble our archive of BW just for the potential for it to benefit us with no realistic guarantee that it will? It should be obvious why we don't support it.
On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote: [quote] You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
You know what companies do when you shove copyright violation into their face? they shut it down. You might have good intentions, but all you're going to do here is get the great resources we have right now shut down
maybe. But one thing I'm confident in is that kespa is not so impenetrable anymore. They will be open to reason if we can prove that we could provide value by listening to us. The shanghai move should be a clear cut sign that kespa is desperate for growth.
On July 04 2011 16:31 Elefanto wrote: But we don't want a change. We're all happy with what we got. I can't see any improvement by changing anything, sorry. Let it go.
if we let it go, Korean BW might die. Then everyone loses.
This isn't just for the foreigners. Above everything else, I want pro BW to live on. And I don't think it can right now without some method of expansion.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
please do share with us what sort of plan you have in mind.
i don't think now's the time and place for that. For now, honestly, it's all about just getting their ear.
You must post this info man. Nobody will support this unless there is some sort of guarantee it won't get horribly fucked up.
On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote: [quote] You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
You know what companies do when you shove copyright violation into their face? they shut it down. You might have good intentions, but all you're going to do here is get the great resources we have right now shut down
maybe. But one thing I'm confident in is that kespa is not so impenetrable anymore. They will be open to reason if we can prove that we could provide value by listening to us. The shanghai move should be a clear cut sign that kespa is desperate for growth.
Also how do you go from shanghai PL finals to kespa being desperate. Do you have proof? seems like you're taking a big leap there.
I really don't think this is a good idea. The foreign community has put in a ton of effort to solve the issue of watching themselves. Kespa should have taken this up years ago - to start messing with the foreigner community now will just ruin it for everyone and will make the last few foreigners who follow Broodwar leave...
I would watch BW again if it had English casters, I used to really like watching english commentated games on youtube before sc2 was released, but I almost never watched live streams. I also didn't visit TL more than once every few months back then so I didn't have much of an idea about the scene.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
You can get vods from ogn and mbcgame already. still confused why you are bothering?
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
You can get vods from ogn and mbcgame already. still confused why you are bothering?
u cant get it from mbcgame.
you can get vod from mbcgame.
You can't get VODs from mbcgame's official site unless you pay.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
please do share with us what sort of plan you have in mind.
i don't think now's the time and place for that. For now, honestly, it's all about just getting their ear.
You must post this info man. Nobody will support this unless there is some sort of guarantee it won't get horribly fucked up.
Think about it this way. Kespa doesn't even care right now. They're completely oblivious to the potential of the English market. Do you think they want to read a 6 page plan from the start, filled with minute details covering everything from forming a partnership with TL (especially TLPD) to the design of the site?
It is there, and it will come. But now's not the time
On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote: [quote] You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
You can get vods from ogn and mbcgame already. still confused why you are bothering?
u cant get it from mbcgame.
you can get vod from mbcgame.
You can't get VODs from mbcgame's official site unless you pay.
yes 700 won. asking mbc to move their vods to a new site will still cost money. so im confused as to why the op is bothering? This is a giant waste of time.
My friends and I found the pro-bw scene and TL tru youtube. All of a sudden, you cant see any pro-bw games on youtube no more. The scene becomes even more obscure, knowledge of the existence of a pro-bw scene is even harder to obtain. Besides, how many people in the world knows about kespa or even TL? People who tries to get into the scene will not know about kespa or TL yet.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
please do share with us what sort of plan you have in mind.
i don't think now's the time and place for that. For now, honestly, it's all about just getting their ear.
You must post this info man. Nobody will support this unless there is some sort of guarantee it won't get horribly fucked up.
Think about it this way. Kespa doesn't even care right now. They're completely oblivious to the potential of the English market. Do you think they want to read a 6 page plan from the start, filled with minute details covering everything from forming a partnership with TL (especially TLPD) to the design of the site?
It is there, and it will come. But now's not the time
Honestly, yes, i'd love to read that. Please, post it.
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
You know what companies do when you shove copyright violation into their face? they shut it down. You might have good intentions, but all you're going to do here is get the great resources we have right now shut down
maybe. But one thing I'm confident in is that kespa is not so impenetrable anymore. They will be open to reason if we can prove that we could provide value by listening to us. The shanghai move should be a clear cut sign that kespa is desperate for growth.
Also how do you go from shanghai PL finals to kespa being desperate. Do you have proof? seems like you're taking a big leap there.
maybe. It is a bit of a leap. But several things:
despite what milkis says, many others view the Wemade disbandment to be quite plausible. Btw, the WEMADE game center is literally 2 stories above the FOmos center.
Kespa has NEVER touched the proleague finals before. Recent polls show 95 percent disagree with the move. Kespa has always been about cultivating goodwill from their audience so that the sponsors are viewed favorably.
Everyone knows BW as a playing game is dying, all stats show it.
Personally looking at this poll I would at the least revise my plan. Seriously rethink this, just please do it and realize the fact that as of right now BW accessibility is very high.
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
please do share with us what sort of plan you have in mind.
i don't think now's the time and place for that. For now, honestly, it's all about just getting their ear.
You must post this info man. Nobody will support this unless there is some sort of guarantee it won't get horribly fucked up.
Think about it this way. Kespa doesn't even care right now. They're completely oblivious to the potential of the English market. Do you think they want to read a 6 page plan from the start, filled with minute details covering everything from forming a partnership with TL (especially TLPD) to the design of the site?
It is there, and it will come. But now's not the time
Why wouldnt they? It's their business on the line. They aren't going to immediately jump on board this plan just because an article was posted on Fomos. Much less so if it is so vague.
Pffff you are being really stubborn d_so, everybody is telling you that the foreign scene is not going to growth in the way that could compensate the hiring of casters, have you heard the "moronic" things that sometimes those english casters say in SC2?, or the yelling for simple things to hype a bad game (very often btw)??, theres a differentation between BW and SC2 in terms of the game itself and the community, do you want some revenue to Kespa from the foreign scene?, organize showmatches in NYC, and some european cities between JD, Flash, Bisu and Stork and people will be willing to pay for watching those matches and for sure you will get big sponsors for that event, and you will be promoting the game. What you are propposing is only hurting the remain foreign community, because this community thinks like:
Korean Casters> English Casters Free Vods> PPV Vods Voluntary free Streamers > PPV model for streams
The financial problem of BW cant be even mitigate for this community, the last chance is China, you should put all your effort looking for a business model there.
On July 04 2011 16:31 Elefanto wrote: But we don't want a change. We're all happy with what we got. I can't see any improvement by changing anything, sorry. Let it go.
if we let it go, Korean BW might die. Then everyone loses.
This isn't just for the foreigners. Above everything else, I want pro BW to live on. And I don't think it can right now without some method of expansion.
I would wait for companies to see the results of the Shanghai proleague, In all honesty asking for the English community to change right now its too big a leap of faith for all parties. Korean companies don't see a viable market, and English communities don't see a reliable service.
China is probably your best bet to keep e-sports alive, and I would probably just sink everything into that market. Your thoughts about the English community is appreciated, but I think its a bit too early, let us do what we've been doing, and you focus on getting China down. Blizzard and Gom already got a deal with NeoTV in China for SC2, and the main broadcaster of BW in China is PLU. Go get those guys to talk to kespa.
As for us, If you're gonna bring out a service where I can click a button and get VODs for free after watching one or two ads at decent quality and speed, then I'm fine with shutting down competing services. But I frankly dont see that happening at all. All I can see is you helping to shut down our streamers, with a promise of a future VOD database, at the very least it would mean no live viewing, and at worst i'll find out I'm gonna have to pay a membership fee.
On July 04 2011 16:39 Black[CAT] wrote: My friends and I found the pro-bw scene tru youtube. All of a sudden, you cant see any pro-bw games on youtube no more. The scene becomes even more obscure. Besides, how many people in the world knows about kespa or even TL?
Yeah I think trying to remove existing content from youtube that has been there for years would be a horribly bad idea. They should approach it slowly with a pay to view goal in the end but before that will work you need to have a site that everybody knows about and visits regularly. How many people even know where the official kespa vods are? I sure don't. They should start slowly by making all new content vods available for free, but exclusively on their site. Once they have built up a decent sized foreign fanbase on their site only then can they begin to charge for it. If they tried to remove everything from youtube and force everyone to pay right now all that would happen is they would drive off or force underground all 90% of the already dwindling foreign broodwar fans.
On July 04 2011 16:39 Black[CAT] wrote: My friends and I found the pro-bw scene tru youtube. All of a sudden, you cant see any pro-bw games on youtube no more. The scene becomes even more obscure. Besides, how many people in the world knows about kespa or even TL?
Yeah I think trying to remove existing content from youtube that has been there for years would be a horribly bad idea. They should approach it slowly with a pay to view goal in the end but before that will work you need to have a site that everybody knows about and visits regularly. How many people even know where the official kespa vods are? I sure don't. They should start slowly by making all new content vods available for free, but exclusively on their site. Once they have built up a decent sized foreign fanbase on their site only then can they begin to charge for it. If they tried to remove everything from youtube and force everyone to pay right now all that would happen is they would drive off or force underground all 90% of the already dwindling foreign broodwar fans.
You have pay to view model on mbc. You can purchase by month as well. It's like any hbo sub. you get vods as well. its wasteful to ask for something that exists. Im just really lost why people are bitching about content you get free with little hassle currently?
Korean Casters> English Casters Free Vods> PPV Vods Voluntary free Streamers > PPV model for streams
That's only the current foreign community, ie males that know how to play RTS games. Look at the korean audience that goes to watch games. See how many women there are. Why do you think they come to watch? Do you really think they would watch the game if the announcers were speaking in English?
Announcers are the key for growth in the casual market. Growth in the casual market is impossible? maybe! But I think we have to try before we say it's impossible.
Having English commentary would be great, but I suspect it would be very difficult to find a good English commentator.
More importantly, like has already been discussed over and over in this thread, the idea of having a centralized VOD archive may sound promising, but it has a lot of risks. The biggest problem is that the system needs to be at least as good as the current one. That includes both remaining free-of-charge for users and providing access to the VODs on a level similar to YouTube. This means a large initial cost, probably combined with a low short-term profit.
Shutting down the current system should only be done after a service of comparable quality is available. Otherwise there is a big risk of destroying a large part of the community.
Korean Casters> English Casters Free Vods> PPV Vods Voluntary free Streamers > PPV model for streams
That's only the current foreign community, ie males that know how to play RTS games. Look at the korean audience that goes to watch games. See how many women there are. Why do you think they come to watch? Do you really think they would watch the game if the announcers were speaking in English?
Announcers are the key for growth in the casual market. Growth in the casual market is impossible? maybe! But I think we have to try before we say it's impossible.
Girls are a minority in the sc2 community also and they have english casters. english casters aren't going to change that...Its a cultural thing
Korean Casters> English Casters Free Vods> PPV Vods Voluntary free Streamers > PPV model for streams
That's only the current foreign community, ie males that know how to play RTS games. Look at the korean audience that goes to watch games. See how many women there are. Why do you think they come to watch? Do you really think they would watch the game if the announcers were speaking in English?
Because the men are working, while the women have freetime, and can do what they want.
Honestly I think the English-speaking market is mostly closed due to competition from SC2. There's no ostensible reason for new potential fans to get into BW. Any successful marketing must be targeted at a very specific market which appreciates skill over graphics, and most likely will require friends to actually introduce BW properly to it. Further, the lack of English-speaking players in BW, or at least players in visible competition, only further alienates the English-speaking market.
Korean Casters> English Casters Free Vods> PPV Vods Voluntary free Streamers > PPV model for streams
That's only the current foreign community, ie males that know how to play RTS games. Look at the korean audience that goes to watch games. See how many women there are. Why do you think they come to watch? Do you really think they would watch the game if the announcers were speaking in English?
Announcers are the key for growth in the casual market. Growth in the casual market is impossible? maybe! But I think we have to try before we say it's impossible.
You got a degree in marketing? How do you even know ANNOUNCERS are the key for growth in a market?? Based on what? Your 1-man assumption?
On July 04 2011 16:47 mima wrote: Having English commentary would be great, but I suspect it would be very difficult to find a good English commentator.
More importantly, like has already been discussed over and over in this thread, the idea of having a centralized VOD archive may sound promising, but it has a lot of risks. The biggest problem is that the system needs to be at least as good as the current one. That includes both remaining free-of-charge for users and providing access to the VODs on a level similar to YouTube. This means a large initial cost, probably combined with a low short-term profit.
Shutting down the current system should only be done after a service of comparable quality is available. Otherwise there is a big risk of destroying a large part of the community.
P.S. You misspelt "“A Zergling for Jaedong”.
you are right in so many ways. My hope is to convince kespa that despite short term profit potential and the large initial cost, eventually it can be worth it to replicate everything nevake does plus add english casters.
It's true that there is the potential for failure. Maybe kespa takes it the wrong way and jsut totally screws everything up. But maybe Kespa can do it right.
I guess it's a matter of let things stagnate as they are, or take this high risk/high reward possibility.
Korean Casters> English Casters Free Vods> PPV Vods Voluntary free Streamers > PPV model for streams
That's only the current foreign community, ie males that know how to play RTS games. Look at the korean audience that goes to watch games. See how many women there are. Why do you think they come to watch? Do you really think they would watch the game if the announcers were speaking in English?
Announcers are the key for growth in the casual market. Growth in the casual market is impossible? maybe! But I think we have to try before we say it's impossible.
You got a degree in marketing? How do you even know ANNOUNCERS are the key for growth in a market?? Based on what? Your 1-man assumption?
well we are polling as we speak. The poll asks how important the live audience views casters to their viewing experience.
It's not the best evidence but it's better than none.
On July 04 2011 16:47 mima wrote: Having English commentary would be great, but I suspect it would be very difficult to find a good English commentator.
More importantly, like has already been discussed over and over in this thread, the idea of having a centralized VOD archive may sound promising, but it has a lot of risks. The biggest problem is that the system needs to be at least as good as the current one. That includes both remaining free-of-charge for users and providing access to the VODs on a level similar to YouTube. This means a large initial cost, probably combined with a low short-term profit.
Shutting down the current system should only be done after a service of comparable quality is available. Otherwise there is a big risk of destroying a large part of the community.
P.S. You misspelt "“A Zergling for Jaedong”.
you are right in so many ways. My hope is to convince kespa that despite short term profit potential and the large initial cost, eventually it can be worth it to replicate everything nevake does plus add english casters.
It's true that there is the potential for failure. Maybe kespa takes it the wrong way and jsut totally screws everything up. But maybe Kespa can do it right.
I guess it's a matter of let things stagnate as they are, or take this high risk/high reward possibility.
When has kespa done ANYTHING right?
edit: where are you doing these polls? just on the live audience? how is that applicable to the reaction of foreign audiences watching a stream/vod?
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
While we appreciate your enthusiasm in helping the community I think you may have misjudged the priorities of the existing bw community.
I think Nevake is not just a secondary issue, but the primary issue thats driving our opinions atm. Nevake represents not just a way to view vods, but as an archive of precious bw history, NOWHERE else can you easily find an arbitrary proleague or starleague game from several years back and watch it.
I think our primary concern is in fact that you are viewing this as a secondary issue. If we get Kespa to listen to the idea before sorting out the details, the risk is that this crucial archive will be lost forever. Because at this stage, there is very little Kespa can offer us on top of what we already have, and unless Kespa manages to get it exactly right (eg make vods easily accessible to our satisfaction AND keep a giant archive of historical games) then whatever they will do will likely be more destructive than constructive to the already existing infrastructure.
I appreciate that the current setup with youtube in no way benefits Kespa, and I'm sure that the community would be willing voluntarily to help Kespa in any way that does not threaten the good things we already have going (eg by releasing their own vods but leaving Nevake alone, or even disallowing Nevake to upload new vods that they have, but leavign the current archive alone). I hazard to guess that the currently overwhelming negative response you have received from the community in this thread stems from the what you are asking the community to risk given how little there is we can gain.
The fact of the matter is, unless and until we can be sure that Kespa will be able to provide a satisfactory service to replace what we already have, the possibility of losing Nevake poses a vital and unacceptable risk to our existing infrastructure.
Korean Casters> English Casters Free Vods> PPV Vods Voluntary free Streamers > PPV model for streams
That's only the current foreign community, ie males that know how to play RTS games. Look at the korean audience that goes to watch games. See how many women there are. Why do you think they come to watch? Do you really think they would watch the game if the announcers were speaking in English?
Announcers are the key for growth in the casual market. Growth in the casual market is impossible? maybe! But I think we have to try before we say it's impossible.
What are you going to try?
Also the women go because they are fans of the gamers, you're going to have to change a lot more than just announcers if you want foreign women to be fans of korean gamers.
Right now, you have a niche market in the foreign community (male RTS players), if you want to expand that, you're going to start alienating that community, so keep that in mind. If you want our input by making a post like this, you're gonna have to tell us what we're going to get, otherwise we'll just tell you to not do anything.
I'm just sick of all the choppy streams and all the other distractions that one has to endure while trying to watch Brood War that I feel compelled to, for that reason alone, to sign under any initiative that gives me the option of removing said stream-choppyness and other various forms of watchability and enjoyability decreasing factors associated with restreams. If anyone tried to watch Jangbi vs Jaedong yersterday, you'll know where I'm coming from.
someone with good internet should write a script to start downloading all of the nevake videos so when this idiot gets nevake shut down we can get it back up in time or something
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
While we appreciate your enthusiasm in helping the community I think you may have misjudged the priorities of the existing bw community.
I think Nevake is not just a secondary issue, but the primary issue thats driving our opinions atm. Nevake represents not just a way to view vods, but as an archive of precious bw history, NOWHERE else can you easily find an arbitrary proleague or starleague game from several years back and watch it.
I think our primary concern is in fact that you are viewing this as a secondary issue. If we get Kespa to listen to the idea before sorting out the details, the risk is that this crucial archive will be lost forever. Because at this stage, there is very little Kespa can offer us on top of what we already have, and unless Kespa manages to get it exactly right (eg make vods easily accessible to our satisfaction AND keep a giant archive of historical games) then whatever they will do will likely be more destructive than constructive to the already existing infrastructure.
I appreciate that the current setup with youtube in no way benefits Kespa, and I'm sure that the community would be willing voluntarily to help Kespa in any way that does not threaten the good things we already have going (eg by releasing their own vods but leaving Nevake alone, or even disallowing Nevake to upload new vods that they have, but leavign the current archive alone). I hazard to guess that the currently overwhelming negative response you have received from the community in this thread stems from the what you are asking the community to risk that there is very little we can gain.
The fact of the matter is, unless and until we can be sure that Kespa will be able to provide a satisfactory service to replace what we already have, the possibility of losing Nevake poses a vital and unacceptable risk to our existing infrastructure.
unfortunately, i think even though we have a lot of feelings for nevake, past examples prove these feelings will not stop viewers from changing their viewing habits . For example, everyone hated comedy central's decision to remove the Dailyshow from youtube and to use their own crappy player. People still comment on how shitty the ads are and the player is. But people still watch.
The daily show risked the goodwill of their fan base by doing this. But now they have a revenue generating model while also being free. That, ultimately, is the goal.
On July 04 2011 16:54 Black[CAT] wrote: Whatever happens, destroying nevake or any archive of that sort must never be allowed.
Or killing the streams. I have a rather bad connection and the settings of almost all of them are perfect. I doubt an official stream is able to do the same...apart from requiring me to install plugins/do other stuff.
The article itself is well written and good. it does not deserve the hatred it gets.
On July 04 2011 15:31 d_so wrote: P.S. Please leave the Fomos/TL drama at the door! This thread is not about that. Hopefully there can be an amicable solution between the two soon.
Of course this thread is about Fomos and TL. It is about Fomos vs. TL for being the prime site of the English market.
What dows Fomos have? They have contacts to Kespa because of their Korean section. Therefore they have some exclusive photos and intervies. The English section has two mediocre article writers and an extremely small user base. What does Fomos want? The TL users to use their site instead of TL.
What does TL have? At the moment Teamliquid is synonymous with the English BW scene. They have multiple very good article writers, a unique database, teamliquid.net is the best programmed site I have ever been on and they have an active community.
What does TL want? Here it starts getting interesting. ATM Teamliquid is resting on its glorious past. Unlike with SC2 the site does nothing to expand in BW. If Kespa wants to expand to the English market the natural thing would be to go to TL and make a deal. Of course what usually happens in this nepotistic world would be that they go to Fomos instead of TL to do so because the contact is already there. In this case however I think that a Kespa/Fomos would be doomed to fail. The Fomos English staff is just not good and big enough and fighting the current TL monopoly on English Broodwar would just destroy the English BW community overall.
So the optimum would be a TL / Kespa alliance. I know this seems might be impossible because of the general stupidity and ignorance and nepotism of big companies. But in the case of English growth it would not only be the best option it is in fact the only option. A stable stream would be a first big step. English commentators would also be a very good idea. People might say that they enjoy the incomprehensible Korean casting but I am sure that as soon as a new good English casting team is found people will love it.
On a side note taking down Nevake would be suicidical for any English market growth. The foreign community would not forgive that.
On July 04 2011 16:06 Kiante wrote: [quote] You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
Are you so deluded that you think kespa is going to upload a COMPLETE vod database after shutting down nevake? At best it'd be archived from the point of creation. we'd lose all the rich broodwar history in the form of vods.
well maybe you're right. Maybe nevake can exist up to the point that the new site is created. I haven't thought that through a 100 percent though. I feel that is a secondary issue that needs to be discussed if we can get Kespa to listen first.
While we appreciate your enthusiasm in helping the community I think you may have misjudged the priorities of the existing bw community.
I think Nevake is not just a secondary issue, but the primary issue thats driving our opinions atm. Nevake represents not just a way to view vods, but as an archive of precious bw history, NOWHERE else can you easily find an arbitrary proleague or starleague game from several years back and watch it.
I think our primary concern is in fact that you are viewing this as a secondary issue. If we get Kespa to listen to the idea before sorting out the details, the risk is that this crucial archive will be lost forever. Because at this stage, there is very little Kespa can offer us on top of what we already have, and unless Kespa manages to get it exactly right (eg make vods easily accessible to our satisfaction AND keep a giant archive of historical games) then whatever they will do will likely be more destructive than constructive to the already existing infrastructure.
I appreciate that the current setup with youtube in no way benefits Kespa, and I'm sure that the community would be willing voluntarily to help Kespa in any way that does not threaten the good things we already have going (eg by releasing their own vods but leaving Nevake alone, or even disallowing Nevake to upload new vods that they have, but leavign the current archive alone). I hazard to guess that the currently overwhelming negative response you have received from the community in this thread stems from the what you are asking the community to risk that there is very little we can gain.
The fact of the matter is, unless and until we can be sure that Kespa will be able to provide a satisfactory service to replace what we already have, the possibility of losing Nevake poses a vital and unacceptable risk to our existing infrastructure.
unfortunately, i think even though we have a lot of feelings for nevake, past examples prove these feelings will not stop viewers from changing their viewing habits . For example, everyone hated comedy central's decision to remove the Dailyshow from youtube and to use their own crappy player. People still comment on how shitty the ads are and the player is. But people still watch.
The daily show risked the goodwill of their fan base by doing this. But now they have a revenue generating model while also being free. That, ultimately, is the goal.
Daily show also removed their videos from hulu but eventually put them back, lets skip the middle step and just keep the videos online then?
if you have to look at the business side of thing, KESPA would be much better off reaching to english speaking community 2 years ago than now. With all the self producing content from the sc2 community. BW will now be "history" and the conent will never be as high quality as sc2 due to the outdated engine of the game itself. It is true that there is a good number of non-korean care about BW but it is notthing compare to the korean domestic market. I think KESPA 's best move atm is keep on doing what ever they are doing and wait for blizzard contract with GOM expired and jump in sc2.
We all know all the rumored around the BW scene: wemadefox about to disbanded, MBC does worse and worse after they complain their coach make them over train and fire him, ACE start winning games.... It is dying. Trying to sell a dead animal oversea is not only a bad bsn but also a crime.
i dont know... as a hardcore fan, im sad myself but it is what it is, SC2 is taking over.
Who's actually delusional to believe there's actually a "English market" for Broodwar LOL.
The game's dead folks. We have us who watch livestream vods at 4am cause that's what we've been doing for years. No one else is gonna come join us lol.
On July 04 2011 15:31 d_so wrote: P.S. Please leave the Fomos/TL drama at the door! This thread is not about that. Hopefully there can be an amicable solution between the two soon.
Of course this thread is about Fomos and TL. It is about Fomos vs. TL for being the prime site of the English market.
What dows Fomos have? They have contacts to Kespa because of their Korean section. Therefore they have some exclusive photos and intervies. The English section has two mediocre article writers and an extremely small user base. What does Fomos want? The TL users to use their site instead of TL.
What does TL have? At the moment Teamliquid is synonymous with the English BW scene. They have multiple very good article writers, a unique database, teamliquid.net is the best programmed site I have ever been on and they have an active community.
What does TL want? Here it starts getting interesting. ATM Teamliquid is resting on its glorious past. Unlike with SC2 the site does nothing to expand in BW. If Kespa wants to expand to the English market the natural thing would be to go to TL and make a deal. Of course what usually happens in this nepotistic world would be that they go to Fomos instead of TL to do so because the contact is already there. In this case however I think that a Kespa/Fomos would be doomed to fail. The Fomos English staff is just not good and big enough and fighting the current TL monopoly on English Broodwar would just destroy the English BW community overall.
So the optimum would be a TL / Kespa alliance. I know this seems might be impossible because of the general stupidity and ignorance and nepotism of big companies. But in the case of English growth it would not only be the best option it is in fact the only option. A stable stream would be a first big step. English commentators would also be a very good idea. People might say that they enjoy the incomprehensible Korean casting but I am sure that as soon as a new good English is found people will love him.
On a side note taking down Nevake would be suicidical for any English market growth. The foreign community would not forgive that.
ur right about a lot of the things uve written but i dont want to discuss that in this thread. If you want, we can discuss this over PM. But to do so in this thread = immediate derailment. please don't!
There's no English casters anywhere near the level of Korean casting so what's the point? Seriously see a translation even partially and they are another level.
BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.
There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.
On July 04 2011 16:27 d_so wrote: i think it should be free. But i dont think it should be on youtube. Youtube does nothing for KESPA. For kespa to run a free model, it needs a lot of clicks and it needs those clicks to go directly to kespa. Registration makes these clicks even more accurate as u can get accurate demographic numbers.
I want to comment on this point because many Korean music companies have now become partners on Youtube and regularly upload videos/MVs with millions of clicks there. Youtube is a great marketing tool for the entire world and those companies that take advantage of it are reeking the benefits of worldwide advertising and a little something on the side. Maybe take a look into SM & YG's youtube business model and research that. I'm not saying registration on their own site is bad, but Youtube is definitely not worthless in this area. Take a look at these numbers as an example:
SM's Youtube: Channel Views:14,398,968 Total Upload Views:477,415,479 Subscribers:407,043
YG's Channel: Channel Views:6,604,942 Total Upload Views:284,828,156 Subscribers:307,856
Now obviously SM & YG are way more popular than BW but I'm just using it as an example that Youtube does propose a good way to market videos worldwide and make a little something on the side with the partnership. Although there's still the problem that this will probably destroy the Nevake account.
With that said, I agree with most of the people in this thread. I don't think it's a good idea. I mean the foreign BW scene is NOT going to suddenly grow overseas with overseas currently focusing on SC2 and the BW fans that exist now are content with the Nevake model. I feel like it'd do more damage than good if KeSPA tried to regulate (pay attention to) the foreign BW fan scene.
If it were possible to have them start uploading to Youtube as well and leave the Nevake account alone I'm sure it'd be great, but I just don't see that happening. It's just not worth the risk imho. China is BW's best bet right now.
On July 04 2011 17:01 DNB wrote: BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.
There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.
It's dead in that there's absolutely no way to make money off BW outside of Korea. There is no way anyone can dispute that with logic and reason lol.
Edit: China has ways to "make money," but it's less of a business and more of a non-profit recouping some costs. So the point of it being retarded to profit off BW outside of Korea by "expanding the market" or whatever this thread is talking about still stands.
On July 04 2011 17:01 DNB wrote: BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.
There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.
It's dead in that there's absolutely no way to make money off BW outside of Korea. There is no way anyone can dispute that with logic and reason lol.
Edit: China has ways to "make money," but it's less of a business and more of a non-profit recouping some costs. So the point of it being retarded to profit off BW outside of Korea by "expanding the market" or whatever this thread is talking about still stands.
On July 04 2011 17:01 DNB wrote: BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.
There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.
It's dead in that there's absolutely no way to make money off BW outside of Korea. There is no way anyone can dispute that with logic and reason lol.
Edit: China has ways to "make money," but it's less of a business and more of a non-profit recouping some costs. So the point of it being retarded to profit off BW outside of Korea by "expanding the market" or whatever this thread is talking about still stands.
On July 04 2011 17:01 DNB wrote: BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.
There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.
It's dead in that there's absolutely no way to make money off BW outside of Korea. There is no way anyone can dispute that with logic and reason lol.
Edit: China has ways to "make money," but it's less of a business and more of a non-profit recouping some costs. So the point of it being retarded to profit off BW outside of Korea by "expanding the market" or whatever this thread is talking about still stands.
kespa certainly agrees with you.
KeSPA is correct.
and if they are, they won't listen.
but u know, most koreans don't even know about teamliquid. or about youtube.com/nevake. I bring this up with people in the know and they are surprised by how large the numbers are.
If kespa is making an informed decision to ignore the foreign market, then yeah, leave it be. But for the most part, it appears they don't know. That means they're making decisions off of ignorance.
And yes someone really needs to archive Nevake on like 2x2tb hdd's. It probably won't be that much to be honest due to the low resolution. But think to the future just in case. That's not much hdd or bw cost, but you got HISTORY stored right there.
On July 04 2011 17:01 DNB wrote: BW will not die for a long time. Warcraft 2 was never as popular as BW, but even today it has a very small but passionate (and BM) community. 10 years on there might not be televised BW anymore, but I'm sure as hell there will still be a small dedicated self-running community for it. As long as the hearts stay in the game, the game will NOT be dead.
There are many good and old games played online today, and just because they don't have an e-sports scene doesn't mean they are dead.
It's dead in that there's absolutely no way to make money off BW outside of Korea. There is no way anyone can dispute that with logic and reason lol.
Edit: China has ways to "make money," but it's less of a business and more of a non-profit recouping some costs. So the point of it being retarded to profit off BW outside of Korea by "expanding the market" or whatever this thread is talking about still stands.
kespa certainly agrees with you.
KeSPA is correct.
and if they are, they won't listen.
but u know, most koreans don't even know about teamliquid. or about youtube.com/nevake. I bring this up with people in the know and they are surprised by how large the numbers are.
If kespa is making an informed decision to ignore the foreign market, then yeah, leave it be. But for the most part, it appears they don't know. That means they're making decisions off of ignorance.
Sometimes information is not a good thing, i'd rather they think the English community is 0, and not touch what we're doing, than to come here thinking they have a shot at making money and start to eliminate competition.
Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
On July 04 2011 17:10 infinity2k9 wrote: And yes someone really needs to archive Nevake on like 2x2tb hdd's. It probably won't be that much to be honest due to the low resolution. But think to the future just in case. That's not much hdd or bw cost, but you got HISTORY stored right there.
I would rather have a couple of mirrored webservers to backup nevake.
I prefer the way it is now. I have easily accessible and catalogued VOD's (through TLPD) with korean commentators (far superior to any english BW cast really) and I can watch every match live streamed by angels sent from heaven such as GTR. Don't try to fix something that is so beautifully not broken.
On July 04 2011 17:14 moopie wrote: Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
I agree with this and suggest that you remove the article.
Thousands of web hits and youtube views isn't something you can monetize. You would earn more money working at McDonalds Part Time. Also I find it weird that you are appealing to KESPA about licenses that it doesn't own. VOD/Broadcasting rights are sold to OGN/MBC which hold copyright over their own things and are unlikely to like being pushed around by KESPA. However, I guess you do have a good idea, an english site with all proleague vods and english content by SDM. I think you should ask them to hire Artosis and Puetorican to provide content and call it something snappy like SC4All.com or something. Because that will make millions and stay around until the end of time.
On July 04 2011 17:14 moopie wrote: Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
I agree with this and suggest that you remove the article.
i'm not going to remove it but i will think heavily on how to word it when i write it in korean. xBillehx pmed me some really relevant stuff regarding youtube that has given me serious reason to reconsider.
basically, all the hate is predominatly directed at 1 thing: stopping youtube vods and restreams. This thread has become 100 percent about saving nevake, and I may have made a mistake regarding my stance on that. But i'm not out to get nevake or nething, so please don't misconstrue my intent.
On July 04 2011 17:24 iluez wrote: Thousands of web hits and youtube views isn't something you can monetize. You would earn more money working at McDonalds Part Time. Also I find it weird that you are appealing to KESPA about licenses that it doesn't own. VOD/Broadcasting rights are sold to OGN/MBC which hold copyright over their own things and are unlikely to like being pushed around by KESPA. However, I guess you do have a good idea, an english site with all proleague vods and english content by SDM. I think you should ask them to hire Artosis and Puetorican to provide content and call it something snappy like SC4All.com or something. Because that will make millions and stay around until the end of time.
lol nice one. One thing i can guarantee, SDM will not be a part of this. He has no intent to.
On July 04 2011 17:14 moopie wrote: Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
I agree with this and suggest that you remove the article.
i'm not going to remove it but i will think heavily on how to word it when i write it in korean. xBillehx pmed me some really relevant stuff regarding youtube that has given me serious reason to reconsider.
basically, all the hate is predominatly directed at 1 thing: stopping youtube vods and restreams. This thread has become 100 percent about saving nevake, and I may have made a mistake regarding my stance on that. But i'm not out to get nevake or nething, so please don't misconstrue my intent.
I certainly don't mean stop trying, I simply mean that in its current form, your idea will simply hurt us. Reworded, I'm sure we'd be glad to support your ideas.
On July 04 2011 17:14 moopie wrote: Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
I agree with this and suggest that you remove the article.
i'm not going to remove it but i will think heavily on how to word it when i write it in korean. xBillehx pmed me some really relevant stuff regarding youtube that has given me serious reason to reconsider.
basically, all the hate is predominatly directed at 1 thing: stopping youtube vods and restreams. This thread has become 100 percent about saving nevake, and I may have made a mistake regarding my stance on that. But i'm not out to get nevake or nething, so please don't misconstrue my intent.
I certainly don't mean stop trying, I simply mean that in its current form, your idea will simply hurt us. Reworded, I'm sure we'd be glad to support your ideas.
well here's the good thing about writing things in English first: no one important reads it lol =P. The main thrust of this argument will be the korean version of this article.
1. "koreans don't know about nevake / teamliquid". 2. write article aimed towards the koreans (and KeSPA, OGN, MBC) telling them about nevake, teamliquid, restreams, and all the unauthorized duplication of their work. 3. ??? 4. Loss of the entire foreign community, nevake and restreams.
There are no two ways about this. Hell, if korean bw fans don't know the vods are on nevake, then after you tell them and MBC about it MBC has no other choice than to kill off nevake otherwise not only can they not earn new foreign viewers, but they will lose some of their paying customers who will now go to youtube instead of pay for vods on MBCs site.
This article is disastrous to the foreign bw community. I can't grasp how you don't see it, even after having it explained to you by everyone in this thread. re-wording it is not going to change this. Unless if your goal is to go down as the guy who killed off the community, please, stop.
On July 04 2011 17:14 moopie wrote: Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
I agree with this and suggest that you remove the article.
i'm not going to remove it but i will think heavily on how to word it when i write it in korean. xBillehx pmed me some really relevant stuff regarding youtube that has given me serious reason to reconsider.
basically, all the hate is predominatly directed at 1 thing: stopping youtube vods and restreams. This thread has become 100 percent about saving nevake, and I may have made a mistake regarding my stance on that. But i'm not out to get nevake or nething, so please don't misconstrue my intent.
I certainly don't mean stop trying, I simply mean that in its current form, your idea will simply hurt us. Reworded, I'm sure we'd be glad to support your ideas.
well here's the good thing about writing things in English first: no one important reads it lol =P. The main thrust of this argument will be the korean version of this article.
would love to see the final version (translated or summarized in English of course)
On July 04 2011 17:14 moopie wrote: Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
I agree with this and suggest that you remove the article.
i'm not going to remove it but i will think heavily on how to word it when i write it in korean. xBillehx pmed me some really relevant stuff regarding youtube that has given me serious reason to reconsider.
basically, all the hate is predominatly directed at 1 thing: stopping youtube vods and restreams. This thread has become 100 percent about saving nevake, and I may have made a mistake regarding my stance on that. But i'm not out to get nevake or nething, so please don't misconstrue my intent.
I certainly don't mean stop trying, I simply mean that in its current form, your idea will simply hurt us. Reworded, I'm sure we'd be glad to support your ideas.
oh and when you do 'reword' it,gives that 6 pages of details.
On July 04 2011 16:04 TheGlassface wrote: Actually, even looking at it...can you somehow take down that comment about the nevake channel? I think, without asking Moktira/Nevake, that was kind of rude. TBH. I mean, if he gets his channel shut down over this...I won't be the only one upset about it. I guarantee that.
Yeah, someone with a fat internet pipe and some spare harddrives could back that shit up, would be realy helpful incase ogn/mbc/kespa get angry
On July 04 2011 17:14 moopie wrote: Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
I agree with this and suggest that you remove the article.
i'm not going to remove it but i will think heavily on how to word it when i write it in korean. xBillehx pmed me some really relevant stuff regarding youtube that has given me serious reason to reconsider.
basically, all the hate is predominatly directed at 1 thing: stopping youtube vods and restreams. This thread has become 100 percent about saving nevake, and I may have made a mistake regarding my stance on that. But i'm not out to get nevake or nething, so please don't misconstrue my intent.
I certainly don't mean stop trying, I simply mean that in its current form, your idea will simply hurt us. Reworded, I'm sure we'd be glad to support your ideas.
well here's the good thing about writing things in English first: no one important reads it lol =P. The main thrust of this argument will be the korean version of this article.
would love to see the final version (translated or summarized in English of course)
well we'll probably edit the english one to match the korean one. It really comes down to changing a few sentences.
I'm all for trying to make BW bigger and some of your ideas are good. But your approach is pretty terrible imao.
1. Turn nevake into Kespa's official StarCraft BroodWar channel on Youtube and use its partner status to generate revenue.
You can even kill off all the channels that only have a few hundred games, as long as you leave the English casted games alone along with the nevake account. I for one don't think this proposed Kespa site will endure the passage of time while nevake on Youtube will almost certainly last as long as Youtube. And losing it forever because Kespa wants to make an extra buck is an awful scenario.
2. Upload vods to both this new Kespa site and nevake on Youtube and if it turns out this Kespa site performs better (not some arbitrary BS like with-holding content for the Youtube channel for weeks but maybe higher quality, better load times etc.) then I'm sure people will eventually flock to that. But keep both alive!
3. Kill off unofficial streams if necessary but if the only replacement is shitty English ones, then please don't bother. We want either only Korean or both. Those are the only two options. English only is not an option.
tl;dr: Partner with Youtube so nevake doesn't need to get axed and give us 2 official stream options, English and Korean. If you manage to do those two things, I'm sure we'd all support you.
On July 04 2011 17:26 d_so wrote: i'm not going to remove it but i will think heavily on how to word it when i write it in korean. xBillehx pmed me some really relevant stuff regarding youtube that has given me serious reason to reconsider.
basically, all the hate is predominatly directed at 1 thing: stopping youtube vods and restreams. This thread has become 100 percent about saving nevake, and I may have made a mistake regarding my stance on that. But i'm not out to get nevake or nething, so please don't misconstrue my intent.
As I said earlier, this is not a mere 'secondary matter'
I don't think anyone believes you are actually out to get nevake, we are just (VERY) worried about the effects on it. All the hate is directed at it because it IS what will effect us most out of this entire ordeal. Because honestly, very few of us care about English casters.
So if you are proceeding with this, I think the main thing to take from this thread is, tread very carefully, especially regarding nevake.
On July 04 2011 17:31 moopie wrote: 1. "koreans don't know about nevake / teamliquid". 2. write article aimed towards the koreans (and KeSPA, OGN, MBC) telling them about nevake, teamliquid, restreams, and all the unauthorized duplication of their work. 3. ??? 4. Loss of the entire foreign community, nevake and restreams.
There are no two ways about this. Hell, if korean bw fans don't know the vods are on nevake, then after you tell them and MBC about it MBC has no other choice than to kill off nevake otherwise not only can they not earn new foreign viewers, but they will lose some of their paying customers who will now go to youtube instead of pay for vods on MBCs site.
This article is disastrous to the foreign bw community. I can't grasp how you don't see it, even after having it explained to you by everyone in this thread. Unless if your goal is to go down as the guy who killed off the community, please, stop.
Yep. Somehow he is the guy with a bomb around his waist, who kidnapped all of us. We are the hostages, trying to appeal to him but he doesn't listen. Now we need the police to solve this matter or we have to pray that the bomb is a dud. Also, the building is our home and if it gets destroyed we will have nowhere to go.
On July 04 2011 17:14 moopie wrote: Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
I agree with this and suggest that you remove the article.
i'm not going to remove it but i will think heavily on how to word it when i write it in korean. xBillehx pmed me some really relevant stuff regarding youtube that has given me serious reason to reconsider.
basically, all the hate is predominatly directed at 1 thing: stopping youtube vods and restreams. This thread has become 100 percent about saving nevake, and I may have made a mistake regarding my stance on that. But i'm not out to get nevake or nething, so please don't misconstrue my intent.
I certainly don't mean stop trying, I simply mean that in its current form, your idea will simply hurt us. Reworded, I'm sure we'd be glad to support your ideas.
well here's the good thing about writing things in English first: no one important reads it lol =P. The main thrust of this argument will be the korean version of this article.
would love to see the final version (translated or summarized in English of course)
well we'll probably edit the english one to match the korean one. It really comes down to changing a few sentences.
Thanks for all the feedback peoples!
Are you seriously going through with this?
no I need some sort of guarantee that Nevake and our streamers don't get fucked over if this falls apart.
I don't know what it is in Korea that makes those commentators so interesting to listen to but that's just how it is. I dont understand korean at all (not counting words here and there) but I wouldnt listen to any other commentators if I cant get proof that someone can get the same amount of excitement out of game than our beloved korean guys.
In my opinion the largest role of ANY commentary is to get the hype and excitement they are sharing with their enthusiastic attitude towards the subject. Anyone with working eyes can tell if marines are moving out or not, or if armory got sniped, or if expansion is being made. You dont neccessary need that info from the commentator you can see it yourself (tho in case of armory you usually get that even vocally :>).
Maybe it's just me or small amount of people but I really dont require some boring sounding commentator telling me that mutalisks just popped and now they are going to harass mineral line. I rather listen to nonesense that I dont understand at all but makes me hyped and excited nevertheless.
So the point is - in my opinion - that there are no english speaking commentators out there who are even close to that love and enthusiasm towards the game and if there are. And dont think that getting an english commentator would give us exactly the same amount of deep speculation, understanding etc. what korean commentators are doing now. It would take lots and lots of time to actually learn the game in a way that understanding what they say actually profits listener.
ps. Dont be cute with "but new boys and girls has hard time to get in bw". We were once in that point, and we made it. So why not them?
On July 04 2011 17:14 moopie wrote: Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
I agree with this and suggest that you remove the article.
i'm not going to remove it but i will think heavily on how to word it when i write it in korean. xBillehx pmed me some really relevant stuff regarding youtube that has given me serious reason to reconsider.
basically, all the hate is predominatly directed at 1 thing: stopping youtube vods and restreams. This thread has become 100 percent about saving nevake, and I may have made a mistake regarding my stance on that. But i'm not out to get nevake or nething, so please don't misconstrue my intent.
I certainly don't mean stop trying, I simply mean that in its current form, your idea will simply hurt us. Reworded, I'm sure we'd be glad to support your ideas.
well here's the good thing about writing things in English first: no one important reads it lol =P. The main thrust of this argument will be the korean version of this article.
would love to see the final version (translated or summarized in English of course)
well we'll probably edit the english one to match the korean one. It really comes down to changing a few sentences.
Thanks for all the feedback peoples!
I still think you are gonna represent the foreign community when the stance so far is nobody is completely in favor of your proposals. I guess you have some personal agenda you want to pursue and elected yourself to do something that isn't needed. What makes you think mbc and ogn will consolidate vods onto 1 website and keep the same fees in place?
What does the English-speaking market look like presently? Here are some statistics: > A popular Youtube channel, youtube.com/nevake, boasts over 9,000 VODs of Korean Broodwar games with over 20,000 subscribers, nearly 7 million channel views and 26 million video views.
As much as I don't like SC2, there is no real SC BW English speaking market. They could have tried 4 years ago.
Right now who are they going to hire as English casters anyway?
Also, because there are no foreign players, there is going to be less foreign interest. In SC BW we had foreigner only tournaments and people watched them despite the level of play being lower. Korean people were banned because top amateur no name Koreans would pick up all the price money and foreigner fans didn't want to see 4th rank Koreans play.
If Kespa is going to care and try to make money, the first thing they will do is shut down Kespa matches on youtube.
I also don't think there is an English market for BW. The English market cares about SC2 right now; casual viewers will be drawn to SC2 because it's what's hot now, and English BW casters is not going to change that.
It seems you have good intentions, but this is a big risk and in the end could result in killing the foreign community instead. A lot of us rely on VODS since we can't watch matches live. If there were to be a transition to an official KESPA sanctioned channel, there is no guarantee the collection will be complete, free, and available to all the countries that will depend on that site. Don't fix it if it isn't broken please.
Also think about the uploaders and all the time they spent uploading VODS for us. It is not easy to upload every game for years on end with no compensation other than the gratitude of the community.
The situation is fine as it is. Leave it alone. As an English speaker, I do not feel ignored. I like the Korean commentary. I liked it even before I started learning Korean and it's helped me to learn Korean.
If MBC hires English-speaking casters, do you know where part of the funding for that will come from? Resources that could otherwise be used for running the HERO team or running MSL. So no thanks. The channel is operating on a shoe-string budget as it is. Don't make things worse. I don't need more players from the team to be sold every season.
Edit: I sincerely urge you NOT to translate this into Korean, especially since it does not represent how the majority of foreign BW fans feel. It will hurt the community more than it will help it.
On July 04 2011 16:01 Lucumo wrote: Absolutely agree with this. The stream-/vod-system is perfectly fine as it is and I really like the commentators. There is no need for change.
Tell that to jon747 and his subscribers.
Jon747 was taken down because of WCG, it had NOTHING to do with Kespa.
That wasn't the point I was making. The point I was making is that VODs currently are located on youtube and youtube has had an increasing tendency to take down material at the behest of another party.
The vod system is anything but perfect because of this and compared to a couple of years ago has become increasingly riskier to deal with than the possible alternative of Kespa being the central database for future vods.
There are currently 700 people watching CJ vs SKT on Nanashin's channel. A number of those would drop if restreaming were to become illegal. That's not really much of a market.
The English BW community is really small with little potential for growth. Your intentions are good but I don't think this will ultimately prove to be worthwile
On July 04 2011 18:21 Ikonn wrote: There are currently 700 people watching CJ vs SKT on Nanashin's channel. A number of those would drop if restreaming were to become illegal. That's not really much of a market.
The English BW community is really small with little potential for growth. Your intentions are good but I don't think this will ultimately prove to be worthwile
Actually restreaming is illegal in the US and currently the latest debate in the government is to upgrade it from a civil offense to criminal offense. But this is a side issue I won't go any further into except to say if you feel passionate about the restream scene contact your Congressman and pressure others to do the same to make sure this isn't elevated to jail time and becoming a pariah in the job market.
I think it is far too late for that. The vast majority casual foreign fans that you try to catch are or will soon be hooked by starcraft 2 and the die-hard core of foreign broodwar fans prefer things as they are now. Nevertheless, it is worth a try. I could never stand how the Korean BW organizers ignore the foreign market.
On July 04 2011 18:33 JustPassingBy wrote: I think it is far too late for that. The vast majority casual foreign fans that you try to catch are or will soon be hooked by starcraft 2 and the die-hard core of foreign broodwar fans prefer things as they are now. Nevertheless, it is worth a try. I could never stand how the Korean BW organizers ignore the foreign market.
Worth a try? You think its worth risking our livestreams and vods getting shutdown completely, to be replaced by.....vods and livestreams? probably of lower quality. that makes absolutely no sense.
On July 04 2011 16:01 TheGlassface wrote: Oh...maybe I should've read the article because I have never in my entire life heard one English caster that makes me want to watch... Go Korean or go home. I just want to be able to have a site to stream from because it's hard to set up as of current.
It's like soccer. Spanish FTW
tasteless i thought was a pretty sexy caster when he was casting for GOMTV itnernational
if u need a proper caster for this, you should skip tasteless etc. try to make a research on; there is a tv program in Ariang (korean tv channel) that is doing good broodwar episodes and there are those korean dudes there that are analyzing and doing commentary on good games and giving tips etc. those guys had pretty good accent and as for commentary; they are probably the best english commentators imho, both in fluency/speed, game analyzing, spot on comments/good calls and so on. so much like the original korean commentating, it is amazing.
On July 04 2011 18:21 Ikonn wrote: There are currently 700 people watching CJ vs SKT on Nanashin's channel. A number of those would drop if restreaming were to become illegal. That's not really much of a market.
well to be honest, he would have had more viewers if he stops the weirdo comments at right bottom and stops opening unrelated and weirdo videos between the games.
On July 04 2011 16:01 TheGlassface wrote: Oh...maybe I should've read the article because I have never in my entire life heard one English caster that makes me want to watch... Go Korean or go home. I just want to be able to have a site to stream from because it's hard to set up as of current.
It's like soccer. Spanish FTW
tasteless i thought was a pretty sexy caster when he was casting for GOMTV itnernational
if u need a proper caster for this, you should skip tasteless etc. try to make a research on; there is a tv program in Ariang (korean tv channel) that is doing good broodwar episodes and there are those korean dudes there that are analyzing and doing commentary on good games and giving tips etc. those guys had pretty good accent and as for commentary; they are probably the best english commentators imho, both in fluency/speed, game analyzing, spot on comments/good calls and so on. so much like the original korean commentating, it is amazing.
From what I've seen on our TV, Tastless was in that show at arirang. Not sure which episode(some random gom classics), but I can remember hearing him there.
d_so, have you been outside South Korea, at least long enough to really get an idea of SC1's popularity here? I really don't think you realize how dead SC1 is outside of Korea. Let me put it to you this way: At least 15 of my real life friends play Starcraft 2.. 0 of them play Starcraft 1. And it's been that way for years. I am pretty sure most people here are like me, I'm the only person of my friends group that play BW, I had some friends that played it maybe 8-10 years ago, but outside of the OCCASIONAL university (like Waterloo or Duke, and I'm not even sure this is the case anymore), Starcraft 1 is really dead. Almost every foreigner that watches Starcraft 1 probably really enjoys it the way it is, and we like it that way.
Seoul really is an anomaly for the way pro gaming has grown there.. In an extremely compact area, you have 20 million people in a culture that loves video games and the idea of Starcraft 1 competition really took off there. It's really really hard to even see Starcraft 2 taking off worldwide even CLOSE to the way Starcraft 1 took off in Korea. The culture in the European countries and North American countries are a lot different, we are far more attached to sports than video games compared to the Asian market, and we're simply WAY to spread out to capitalize on any momentum the way SC1 did in Korea.
Anyway, the point being that the way Starcraft 1 is just fine with us, it's not going to grow, and if Nevake's vods got removed I'd be SERIOUSLY pissed off.
On July 04 2011 16:01 TheGlassface wrote: Oh...maybe I should've read the article because I have never in my entire life heard one English caster that makes me want to watch... Go Korean or go home. I just want to be able to have a site to stream from because it's hard to set up as of current.
It's like soccer. Spanish FTW
tasteless i thought was a pretty sexy caster when he was casting for GOMTV itnernational
if u need a proper caster for this, you should skip tasteless etc. try to make a research on; there is a tv program in Ariang (korean tv channel) that is doing good broodwar episodes and there are those korean dudes there that are analyzing and doing commentary on good games and giving tips etc. those guys had pretty good accent and as for commentary; they are probably the best english commentators imho, both in fluency/speed, game analyzing, spot on comments/good calls and so on. so much like the original korean commentating, it is amazing.
From what I've seen on our TV, Tastless was in that show at arirang. Not sure which episode(some random gom classics), but I can remember hearing him there.
yea he have made few appearances there long ago :p
Notice that this is a request from Kespa which is a component of Korean state who got infinite money, so if they want to do it and maintain it beside loosing money on it they can.
On July 04 2011 18:21 Ikonn wrote: There are currently 700 people watching CJ vs SKT on Nanashin's channel. A number of those would drop if restreaming were to become illegal. That's not really much of a market.
well to be honest, he would have had more viewers if he stops the weirdo comments at right bottom and stops opening unrelated and weirdo videos between the games.
wow this is pretty off topic but you think that those will affect viewer counts?
Most BW viewers should be used to the "weirdo videos"(though rarely it's a bit more extreme, but nothing a mute button can't handle.) way before nanashin started streaming. The "weirdo comments" shouldn't even distract you from the game at all so you're just hating for the point of hating.
On July 04 2011 18:21 Ikonn wrote: There are currently 700 people watching CJ vs SKT on Nanashin's channel. A number of those would drop if restreaming were to become illegal. That's not really much of a market.
well to be honest, he would have had more viewers if he stops the weirdo comments at right bottom and stops opening unrelated and weirdo videos between the games.
wow this is pretty off topic but you think that those will affect viewer counts?
Most BW viewers should be used to the "weirdo videos"(though rarely it's a bit more extreme, but nothing a mute button can't handle.) way before nanashin started streaming. The "weirdo comments" shouldn't even distract you from the game at all so you're just hating for the point of hating.
i get pretty distracted by the comments. Thats usually the reason i put a stream up if i can get a source, simply because i'm watching it on my own source because i was driven off by the comments. I really wish he'd just chat in his chat instead of on the screen ><
Actually reading through this thread, what the hell d_so? As far as I know, you're a good poster with good intentions but it really feels like you have some kind of personal agenda in this thread. You've basically refused to acknowledge the viewpoints of the very same people you are claiming to represent. C'mon man...
On July 04 2011 18:21 Ikonn wrote: There are currently 700 people watching CJ vs SKT on Nanashin's channel. A number of those would drop if restreaming were to become illegal. That's not really much of a market.
well to be honest, he would have had more viewers if he stops the weirdo comments at right bottom and stops opening unrelated and weirdo videos between the games.
wow this is pretty off topic but you think that those will affect viewer counts?
Most BW viewers should be used to the "weirdo videos"(though rarely it's a bit more extreme, but nothing a mute button can't handle.) way before nanashin started streaming. The "weirdo comments" shouldn't even distract you from the game at all so you're just hating for the point of hating.
i am not hating nanashin LOL, he is doing a great thing with being the only dedicated streamer nowadays and we are all thankful. but all that weirdo stuff wasnt that much common like this in the past tho. plus it is not most actually, we can make a poll about who loves to watch korean girl singers who dress like elementary school girls and sing nonsense? yes lyrics are terrible, music itself has nothing to offer either and so far its all about the skin show.
On July 04 2011 18:21 Ikonn wrote: There are currently 700 people watching CJ vs SKT on Nanashin's channel. A number of those would drop if restreaming were to become illegal. That's not really much of a market.
well to be honest, he would have had more viewers if he stops the weirdo comments at right bottom and stops opening unrelated and weirdo videos between the games.
wow this is pretty off topic but you think that those will affect viewer counts?
Most BW viewers should be used to the "weirdo videos"(though rarely it's a bit more extreme, but nothing a mute button can't handle.) way before nanashin started streaming. The "weirdo comments" shouldn't even distract you from the game at all so you're just hating for the point of hating.
i get pretty distracted by the comments. Thats usually the reason i put a stream up if i can get a source, simply because i'm watching it on my own source because i was driven off by the comments. I really wish he'd just chat in his chat instead of on the screen ><
here is a very good solution, he should really carry that thing to his stream chat, which would be normal.
also he can use that box for previous game scores with player names in it, just in case of OPs not being updated in time, less spam in chat with "DID FLASH PLAYED?" stuff. its a win/win imo.
On July 04 2011 18:21 Ikonn wrote: There are currently 700 people watching CJ vs SKT on Nanashin's channel. A number of those would drop if restreaming were to become illegal. That's not really much of a market.
well to be honest, he would have had more viewers if he stops the weirdo comments at right bottom and stops opening unrelated and weirdo videos between the games.
wow this is pretty off topic but you think that those will affect viewer counts?
Most BW viewers should be used to the "weirdo videos"(though rarely it's a bit more extreme, but nothing a mute button can't handle.) way before nanashin started streaming. The "weirdo comments" shouldn't even distract you from the game at all so you're just hating for the point of hating.
i get pretty distracted by the comments. Thats usually the reason i put a stream up if i can get a source, simply because i'm watching it on my own source because i was driven off by the comments. I really wish he'd just chat in his chat instead of on the screen ><
I guess the comments part is not distracting for me probably. I can barely notice it once the action in the game started. Nanashin is like the only (main)MBC game channel streamer now a days.
On July 04 2011 18:21 Ikonn wrote: There are currently 700 people watching CJ vs SKT on Nanashin's channel. A number of those would drop if restreaming were to become illegal. That's not really much of a market.
well to be honest, he would have had more viewers if he stops the weirdo comments at right bottom and stops opening unrelated and weirdo videos between the games.
wow this is pretty off topic but you think that those will affect viewer counts?
Most BW viewers should be used to the "weirdo videos"(though rarely it's a bit more extreme, but nothing a mute button can't handle.) way before nanashin started streaming. The "weirdo comments" shouldn't even distract you from the game at all so you're just hating for the point of hating.
i am not hating nanashin LOL, he is doing a great thing with being the only dedicated streamer nowadays and we are all thankful. but all that weirdo stuff wasnt that much common like this in the past tho. plus it is not most actually, we can make a poll about who loves to watch korean girl singers who dress like elementary school girls and sing nonsense? yes lyrics are terrible, music itself has nothing to offer either and so far its all about the skin show.
I don't know how long you've been watching BW but I've watched it since summer 2009 and 3 main streamers(Roffles, Craton, GTR) I know plays Kpop each time they stream and there's 2 more that I don't remember(maybe Boesthius?). You think Kpop isn't good for you, that's your opinion man.
On July 04 2011 19:31 Arkqn wrote: Hmm... I'm just wondering why Kespa has just decided now to think about open itself to the foreign community. Is it because of SC2?
Its not Kespa, its d_so writing article that targets Kespa(and mbc/ogn indirect way) to give suggestions of action to provide specific services to English market. This also has hidden consequences that could cause close of Nevake account for example, which everyone here values extremely highly due its vast database and almost non matched upload speed/quality.
I've worked with KeSPA in the past on things. They do want to help the international scene.
Also I have metioned the vod's and restreams to them. They are not concerned about it at all from what I can tell. Auctally they are quite taken aback that we have so much saved.
KeSPA does not have a saved database of their vods nor I think would have the capacity to host them on their own. Both MBC and OGN have small database of their shows. But it is more recent and harder to access everything. I think that taking vods and such away from youtube would be a horrible thing. BW lives off of bw vods on youtube. Getting rid of that would kill bw since not many people would charge for vods.
They know about the vod's. As a lot of very famous chinese sites have huge (larger then youtube) database of vod's. But they do not go after them since they know both gaming T.V shows would not be able to handle such large bandwith needs.
KeSPA could only benefit from the vod's and restreams on youtube. They know this. They have to do 0 work in order to get a good amount of people watching their productions.
When I was talking to Sean oh (marketing manager of CJ) He did explain that it was hard for KeSPa to get into the scene outside Korea.
For him it sounded like not an If KeSPA will do thigns outside Korea, But a when. KeSPA does not need any more money, so killing a possible market to gain some small amount of money seems unreasonable.
I have to think their is a little personal bis on your part SDM. Since you are one of the very few english speaking casters in Korea that have worked in the past. So you would automatically be hired.
On July 04 2011 19:31 Arkqn wrote: Hmm... I'm just wondering why Kespa has just decided now to think about open itself to the foreign community. Is it because of SC2?
I guess some have noticed that Gom TV has been making money with selling their GSL stream/VOD subscriptions and think it could be a good money spinner. While I have no problem with the idea of paying a reasonable amount for viewing, I'm not sure there's really a big enough BW foreign community left for it to really be worth it for them.
On July 04 2011 17:14 moopie wrote: Look d_so, regardless of what you think or what your goal is, what you are doing is writing an article saying "Hey KeSPA, nevake on youtube has a ton of copyrighted content and teamliquid regularly restreams unauthorized streams.... want to deal with us?"
Now regardless of if the answer is yes or no (and even in the case of yes odds are it wont be free and/or as good/accessible, might lag and will have commercials), you are going to cut off the foreign community, period. You said yourself currently MBC charges for vods, so surely they will cease and desist on nevake, streams, etc, regardless of anything.
In essence, what you are doing is killing an already dying community, in the hopes that maybe some day, there is potential for a way to re-do the foreign community.
Leave it alone, this community is tiny, its not going to grow, and we are trying to make the best of it.
I agree with this and suggest that you remove the article.
i'm not going to remove it but i will think heavily on how to word it when i write it in korean. xBillehx pmed me some really relevant stuff regarding youtube that has given me serious reason to reconsider.
basically, all the hate is predominatly directed at 1 thing: stopping youtube vods and restreams. This thread has become 100 percent about saving nevake, and I may have made a mistake regarding my stance on that. But i'm not out to get nevake or nething, so please don't misconstrue my intent.
Oh my god, OF COURSE IT IS!!!
Besides re-streams, nevake is our only connection to BW. Lets say Kespa decides to take down Nevake and doesn't put up a stream. We are screwed. Lets say they put up a stream, realises there is no income, and takes it down, we are screwed. We won't even be able to have BW articles on TeamLiquid.
Just look at what happened when Fomos started publishing english articles, and screwed TL over.
And please stop bringing up risk/chance/reward/whatever. Do you know anything about risk management?
Risk = Probability x Impact. On a scale out of 10, Probability is 9 (unlikely they will make money), and Impact is 10 (we completely lose our connection to BW). Which gives you a suicidal risk rating. No sane business would go ahead with this, any person who decided to go ahead would be insta-fired, you are bordering on insanity here.
Its not about taking a large risk for a big reward. It is taking a suicidal risk for a tiny reward.
This is like putting 1 million dollars on the number 7, in the hope that you will make 50 dollars profit. Its just ridiculous.
Please, if you don't remove the article, at least remove anything mentioning nevake. ffs.
Also why should KeSPA get the money, they have enough bloodstained money already, have you seen their building?! I really wish they didn't exist.
This sounds like a terrible idea and I think the fact that there's nobody supporting this reflects how awful an idea it actually is. BW is over a decade old now. It's not going to grow any more than it has. Let it run its course.
Good written article. Totally reasonnable from a professional view, but the fear of having to pay for BW and losing nevake is making me say : Hopfully this won't happen.
On July 04 2011 19:57 d_so wrote: yo guys im not sdm lol
And reading more and more of the thread makes me say please put this in the OP lol^^
why would you come to the community for feedback if you're not going to ttake our feedback into consideration? the overwhelming majority of people are telling you NOT to do this. so you're going to do it anyway? Come on dude stop being stupid
This is waaaaayyyy too late, Kespa could do it long time ago when the bw foreigner scene was a little bit more alive, but now there is no foreign market for bw because of sc2. I think the fact that GOM is doing well with his vod business has change Kespa view but it's too late,
they could expand bw all over the world, if they tried to invest money long time ago in an english market, maybe the bw foreigner scene will not be so tiny now, but they didn't care about the foreigner fans and now they are paying the price, they are stuck with an exclusive (maybe dying) Korean scene that can't be expanded and can't grow, because it's stuck in korea. They just care about foreigner fans because they saw they could make money with it now but it's too late.
Next time don't think just about money when you want a growing scene, but more about pleasing the fans all over the world and the money comes next and naturally when the fans are satisfied.
On July 04 2011 20:12 Kiante wrote: why would you come to the community for feedback if you're not going to ttake our feedback into consideration? the overwhelming majority of people are telling you NOT to do this. so you're going to do it anyway? Come on dude stop being stupid
He's the kind of people that just say things for formality and doesn't listen to what other people say(sounds like a description of a troll in this part).
Although masterbreti has offered some small sense of relief with his post (if it is true that KeSPA knows about all the vods and won't harm them), it is still tremendously rude of d_so to ask for our thoughts, then after pages upon pages of urging him not to eff nevake up, decide "It really comes down to changing a few sentences."
I mean, how thick does one have to be to have one's eyes just gloss over all the protesting? Perhaps not thick, but simply self-motivated with a personal agenda. Save yourself a bit of trouble, a lot of potential pain for everyone else, and just stop bothering us with your selfishness, please.
d_so, I do respect your goal of alerting KeSPA to this community in the hopes of revitalizing the English speaking side of BW, but I can't forgive your lack of respect for everyone here opposing you by dismissing their worries as "leaps of logic" and refusing to post your "more detailed plan" for us to read. How many more concerns for the rest of us lie in those 6 pages of yours?
If you won't humour us in any other way, just post the rest of the details for us to agonize over. Pretty please.
It's past the time to look at the foreigner market. This should have happened right after the GOMTV Leagues, not now.
I just want my korean brood war daily like im currently getting. I could care less about english casters. Streams work, live report workers, vods work, interviews work. We got all that through hard work. Why should we risk everything we have for some more viewers?
Daniel just check how few people voted in this poll and you get a pretty good idea of how small the foreign bw community already is. And if the changes you suggest will be implemented it will decrease further. It is nothing but a fact that only a small percentage of X people will pay for something that used to be for free, if it is not necessary for their life.
As someone from a demographic that I'm sure 80% of people here will hate, I'm one of those guys who plays SC2 and doesn't really care about BW. However, I always read the articles and I find the scene interesting, but it's so hard to get in to a game when I don't know what's going on. I can see what's happening and all, but I really need that analysis.
Put it this way, if there was an English cast I would likely watch Proleague/MSL/OSL.
On July 04 2011 20:50 Ruscour wrote: As someone from a demographic that I'm sure 80% of people here will hate, I'm one of those guys who plays SC2 and doesn't really care about BW. However, I always read the articles and I find the scene interesting, but it's so hard to get in to a game when I don't know what's going on. I can see what's happening and all, but I really need that analysis.
Put it this way, if there was an English cast I would likely watch Proleague/MSL/OSL.
eton7402 has been doing live english casts of some PL games. there are a few youtube commentators. sayle commentated some finals and does foreign BW casts. theres enough english content around for someone who wants to get into it to get into it. once you get to a certain level of understanding, the korean commentary becomes better and you move on.
I only want better quality streams ( for free lol ). I don't want English casters for bw. Anyway it won't happen. The average foreigner audience for a PL match is less than 1K and even MSL / OSL finals are below 5K.
On July 04 2011 15:45 Vipsanius wrote: Yelling korean casters you can't understand is a fun part in brood war and shouldn't be removed.
Yea that's an important part of the bw folklore too.
Your plan works perfectly and korean vods/streams are replaced with high quality, monetised, official english content. I think almost all BW fans prefer Korean at this point and would not be happy to pay for a downgrade. This outcome is only preferable for the some of the SC2 crossover audience. BAD.
Your plan works poorly and korean vods/streams are replaced with low quality (non-live, unrealiable connections, laggy, bad quality, etc) monetised, official english content. This is straight up worse for everyone. BAD.
Your plan is a disaster and blows up in our faces, resulting in nevake being closed down and both TL and the streaming sites being forced to oppose restreaming. This kills foreign BW. Also everybody now hates you. BAD.
Your plan fails and Kespa igores you. Things continue as they are now. NEUTRAL.
Unless I'm missing something there is not a single positive outcome that can come from this. The only neutral outcome is Kespa ignores you. If you feel I've missed a possible outcome please fill me in, if you feel I've missrepresented the result of an outcome then please, do the same.
If I haven't then please for the love of BW leave it alone.
One step at a time my friend. Kespa decided to go China first. Then if that works I am sure they will look at the West next.
But in the west, the true hurdle is the "international IP rights", to most people it's also "America's International IP right". West is Blizz's home turf. Kespa is going to have a HARD time expanding there after all the recent drama. Also "maybe" the legality of certain aspects in BW is still unclear, and China's "don't interfere others' policy" foreign approach is perfect for Kespa operation.
If this China thing works out. Then we are going to see "BW East" vs "SC2 West".
edit: also bear in mind that China already has regular casting(probably illegal resteam but Kespa don't care) of every single BW matches for a long long time and their caster are very good at it. So the structure/audience is already there although simple compare to Korea's.
But to break into a foreign market with a sport, electronic or otherwise, you DO NOT try to run profit from Day 1. You engender support through loss-leader tactics that are long-term in strategy. Only when you hit that critical mass can you think about sustaining a profit-orientated business model.
edit: also bear in mind that China already has regular casting(probably illegal resteam but Kespa don't care) of every single BW matches for a long long time and their caster are very good at it. So the structure/audience is already there although simple compare to Korea's.
From what I've seen on the Chinese BW sites (wfbrood and all), they have a community setup that is very much like Teamliquid, and in many cases, you could argue their livecasting and whatnot are superior.
On July 04 2011 21:49 hauton wrote: BW had its chance, it's well over by now.
But to break into a foreign market with a sport, electronic or otherwise, you DO NOT try to run profit from Day 1. You engender support through loss-leader tactics that are long-term in strategy. Only when you hit that critical mass can you think about sustaining a profit-orientated business model.
The view figures on Chinese VOD say otherwise. At the moment it's 10-20x of SC2(source: plu/youku). If you keep track of the Chinese starcraft scene then you already know that both TW and China sc2 server are suffering from big user lost(hence the new pricing plan announced by the operator. source: plu/wfbrood)
I am sure you already heard that Hacks/Abuse is rampant in China/TW SC2 servers and Blizz is banning them. Why? Because people are dumping their Sc2 subs! Why not try out some hack since you are gonna quit anyway. Blizz can keep banning people, but not many are signing up. SC2 1.0 is dying at a fast pace in China/TW, all eyes are on the expansion.
In term of StarCraft analogy, I think Kespa have missed their timing window!
The IDEAL time for English to be hired was RIGHT after the elimination of GSL (yes the one and the only true original GSL not GS2L). I remembered people going crazy about Tasteless not being able to cast anything more. NOW if OGN/MBC (Kespa) hired Tasteless then, when the foreign scene is still very much at the peak of the interest, SC:BW would boom in the west with a caster.
Actually screw that, they should hire Artosis as well as Tateless and keep SDM there as well. Tasteless to hype things up, Artosis for technical gameplays and SDM to keep bridging things up (translate of what happened if some unexpected events comes up).
Plus, they should contracted Tasteless/Artosis to keep them casting in BW as a regular job and cast SC2 in their spare time in streams of TS2L and other events. That would simultaneously boost both scene to ensure that e-Sport have the brightest future possible.
On July 04 2011 21:23 Lachrymose wrote: Your plan works perfectly and korean vods/streams are replaced with high quality, monetised, official english content. I think almost all BW fans prefer Korean at this point and would not be happy to pay for a downgrade. This outcome is only preferable for the some of the SC2 crossover audience. BAD.
Your plan works poorly and korean vods/streams are replaced with low quality (non-live, unrealiable connections, laggy, bad quality, etc) monetised, official english content. This is straight up worse for everyone. BAD.
Your plan is a disaster and blows up in our faces, resulting in nevake being closed down and both TL and the streaming sites being forced to oppose restreaming. This kills foreign BW. Also everybody now hates you. BAD.
Your plan fails and Kespa igores you. Things continue as they are now. NEUTRAL.
Unless I'm missing something there is not a single positive outcome that can come from this. The only neutral outcome is Kespa ignores you. If you feel I've missed a possible outcome please fill me in, if you feel I've missrepresented the result of an outcome then please, do the same.
If I haven't then please for the love of BW leave it alone.
Not that I support the idea but a positive outcome you missed would be a KeSPA/OGN/MBC official Youtube channel where they just upload all VOD's from here on out and gain global advertising + a little cash on the side from a Youtube partnership while either leaving Nevake's VOD's alone or integrating them into their own channel.
Theres enough research from Korean companies delving into Youtube as marketing to probably convince them but the only issue here is whether they leave Nevake's archive alone. Is it worth the risk of losing all we have now? I don't think its worth it personally, but I also don't think anyone here would have a problem with the above scenario. It's just too much to risk. (i.e. Everything)
What would that actually change though? The video quality on Nevake is nice, we would see a marginal improvement at best. Would they be as fast to upload as the Nevake channel? The security that it would never get copyright-killed in the future?
Really, that scenario is virtually no different to them ignoring it.
actually,now that I think about it,the fact that they haven't touched nevake or the streamers so far now and actually encouraging the streamers should mean something right?.......Right?
exactly the same here, i'd watch gsl whenever there isn't bw on, but gom's refusal to stream through anything other than their proprietary player (coupled with tl playing ball with gom and killing restreamers) means i've not watched anything of theirs in about six months. otoh i missed basically nothing of dreamhack/homestory/mlg columbus
Daniel just check how few people voted in this poll and you get a pretty good idea of how small the foreign bw community already is. And if the changes you suggest will be implemented it will decrease further. It is nothing but a fact that only a small percentage of X people will pay for something that used to be for free, if it is not necessary for their life.
tbh the poll's been up for about 4 hours from when you posted and much of europe is at work/school, america's just waking up, or we were all watching skt/cj instead
On July 04 2011 20:48 IntoTheWow wrote: It's past the time to look at the foreigner market. This should have happened right after the GOMTV Leagues, not now.
I just want my korean brood war daily like im currently getting. I could care less about english casters. Streams work, live report workers, vods work, interviews work. We got all that through hard work. Why should we risk everything we have for some more viewers?
I say no.
Exactly what I though. Those moves should have been made a long time ago, now it's too late, we're just a small community.
On July 04 2011 15:31 d_so wrote: As a second or third language, the number of English speakers ranks first in the world. Compared to China, Kespa could potentially reach as many people by investing in the English market, but with far less risk.
source? did you know you're wrong here? go do some research and discover that chinese mandarin is the most spoken language in the world
The only idea I'm willing to support is if KeSPA/OGN/MBC take over the nevake channel and start uploading the content themselves and make it a YouTube partner account. YouTube has the bandwidth and those mini ads would generate quite a bit of revenue. It would also show strong promise for a huge increase in quality and possibly using YouTube's CC ability to add in soft subs. Getting rid of nevake will not only kill Brood War but have you labeled as enemy #1 in the eyes of all foreigners.
On July 04 2011 15:31 d_so wrote: As a second or third language, the number of English speakers ranks first in the world. Compared to China, Kespa could potentially reach as many people by investing in the English market, but with far less risk.
source? did you know you're wrong here? go do some research and discover that chinese mandarin is the most spoken language in the world
read the bit right before you bolded. while you're probably right as far as a first language go, there's an awful, awful lot of people that speak english as a second language, mandarin not so much
On July 04 2011 15:31 d_so wrote: As a second or third language, the number of English speakers ranks first in the world. Compared to China, Kespa could potentially reach as many people by investing in the English market, but with far less risk.
source? did you know you're wrong here? go do some research and discover that chinese mandarin is the most spoken language in the world
This is only because of the sheer population size of China. English has the strongest international influence in the world (Lots and lots of nations have English as a secondary language).
On July 04 2011 15:31 d_so wrote: As a second or third language, the number of English speakers ranks first in the world. Compared to China, Kespa could potentially reach as many people by investing in the English market, but with far less risk.
source? did you know you're wrong here? go do some research and discover that chinese mandarin is the most spoken language in the world
read the bit right before you bolded. while you're probably right as far as a first language go, there's an awful, awful lot of people that speak english as a second language, mandarin not so much
including second language speakers, mandarin is still the most spoken language
edit: unless you mean solely second/third language speakers excluding native speakers, then yes english would rank first
There is one thing people here who say foreign bw community is too small! it doesn't have to be; i enjoy watching sc2 vods sure, but everytime i watch broodwar i realise the game has currently alot more potential for entertainment, TL could help alot of sc2 fans get a trial of broodwar, and believe me alot of those people would enjoy it if it was casted in english! I wouldn't assume kespa trying to enter the english market would be an instant success, but with small clever investments i am sure they could provide something that would attract more english fans and give them a larger viewerbase.
First, Kespa must move to control its own media content by > Creating an official, centralized and easily accessible site for VODs and live streams. > Issuing cease and desist letters to all Youtube channels and streaming accounts that show VODs and live streams.
Do not want. Same with english casters for that matter.
This seems to want to encourage hurting the foreign scene more than helping it.
If these are the suggestions I have only one thing to say:
ATTN KeSPA: Keep ignoring the English market!
I'm right behind moopie...
The Korean casters are better than any English ones I've heard, anyways...I prefer them over any English cast, you don't even have to know what they are saying to catch onto their energy and hype and all the craziness.
Eliminating streams / VODs??? What?? I work full time in EST, I watch probably 90% of my Brood War via VODs/YT, and then catch Streams on the weekend...god only knows what KESPA would do anyways, what happens if they end up pulling a GomTV and charge for VOD service or whatever.
I'd like the pro BW scene to remain as it is.
I have to agree. People who currently watch BW don't really give a damn that it is casted in Korean and personally I would still favor that option over English.
I don't have strong feelings for Kespa. The way things are right now aren't perfect, but good enough. We (usually) have streamers covering all the matches VODs are uploaded in a timely matter.
I think the OPs post is of noble effort but comes off a little as "hey! there is large group of fans you could potentially exploit but taking down VODs and restreamers."
I mean do you truly think Kespa would offer the same free content we have been getting for years now?
i think if anything -- and I've discussed this with several people in the industry -- the Shanghai move represents a desperation that Kespa previously had not shown before. It is the inch they've given and we need to take the mile from it. So yeah, I think Kespa can be convinced to leave it for free if they see value in it. It's up to us to convince that there is value.
The Shanghai move wasn't even done by KeSPA, it was done at the suggestion of OGN
On July 04 2011 15:39 okum wrote: The part about cease and desist letters is a joke, right?
Right?
Unfortunately, it's not. And I think GomTV has proven that even if a move like this engenders some hate, ultimately it's the wise thing to do from a business perspective.
A better thing to do from a business perspective would be to provide a service that's superior to the free alternatives. That's inevitably not going to happen. If OGN/MBC follow your plan, the following will happen:
* The official streams will be be impossibly slow in Europe. * Only the English cast will be available to foreign viewers. The casting will be done by SDM. * The stream and VODs will require a proprietary player or plugin that only works in IE. * It will not be possible to fast forward when viewing VODs (hi GOM). * Nevake will be shut down, but old games will never be archived on the official site.
these are leaps of logic that, to be completely honest, have no justificiation besides your premonitions and experience. I understand though that everyone is quite pessimistic about Kespa and it's natural to think they'll do the worst. But my hope is they won't. I do have a more detailed plan that stresses ease of access, quality and revenue-without-pay, but I left it (and 6 more pages of details) out of this initial article for brevity's sake.
No one is pessimistic about "KeSPA". This entire thing isn't even KeSPA's decision.
All the VODs are already available on OGN. Maybe you should go yell at MBC Game.
On July 04 2011 16:05 d_so wrote: thx for the feedback guys, when we post it in Korean I'm going to make it much more explicit that I'M NOT PROPOSING A PAY PER VIEW MODEL. And i'll also use the Daily show and comedy central as a comparison.
You're missing the point here. We dont want your dumb changes. For gods sake dont post this. If you get nevake shut down, there will be a mob of angry BW fans...
that mob of angry fans is still watching GOM TV casts.
gomtv doesn't cover bw. so im really lost here.
i mean like those angry fans who got pissed cuz gomtv eliminated all restreams and VODs on youtube. remember that? like a year prior.
That was for star 2. You can still download gom classic off the website or use their player. Still confused why you want to bother with this?
? I'm proposing the same thing. Eliminate youtube channels and put it on a kespa website. So that they are accessible, but through a kespa site. That way they can get clicks which they can hopefully convert to money.
i'm not saying eliminate and don't replace. I'm saying make a good, kespa based alternative and then remove.
Can i ask you honestly like... did you read the article? And if you did, was it that unclear? Because the ideas you are getting are completely different from what I have written, but if everyone keeps getting to that conclusion then that means I've done a poor job as a writer.
u can PM me ur response btw. I'm not flaming you, i really want to know.
Youtube is far more accessible than Korean sources ever will be. Are you mad?
Korean Casters> English Casters Free Vods> PPV Vods Voluntary free Streamers > PPV model for streams
That's only the current foreign community, ie males that know how to play RTS games. Look at the korean audience that goes to watch games. See how many women there are. Why do you think they come to watch? Do you really think they would watch the game if the announcers were speaking in English?
Announcers are the key for growth in the casual market. Growth in the casual market is impossible? maybe! But I think we have to try before we say it's impossible.
No cause English announces are guaranteed to suck.
People have this magical idea that Tasteless was actually good at casting back in Gom Leagues. I can tell you that you only say that because you haven't heard some of the good Korean commentator. They are on a different level.
The amount of money it would take to find a good English BW commentator is not worth any sort of effort because NONE EXISTS.
I understand that Fomos wants a bigger BW community mostly because they want to promote the use of their global section.
Make your global section actually usable and read less like some newspaper tabloid with retarded opinion pieces and terrible english and formatting. THEN you can talk about expansion.
But really? People see Fomos Global and think it's a farce. It's still a farce despite how hard you've been working there d_so cause of certain other contributors to that site. it's some clever scheme by Fomos. No wonder you posted shit that "Did SC2 bring you into BW", it's all just market research for all of this and trying to expand or something.
I'll tell Fomos this straight up -- make your global section professional before you even think of trying to play your media cards to try and expand the market because it is ridiculous.
I understand that Fomos wants a bigger BW community mostly because they want to promote the use of their global section. Make your global section actually usable and read less like some newspaper tabloid with retarded opinion pieces and terrible english and formatting. THEN you can talk about expansion.
But really? People see Fomos Global and think it's a farce. It's still a farce despite how hard you've been working there d_so cause of certain other contributors to that site. it's some clever scheme by Fomos. No wonder you posted shit that "Did SC2 bring you into BW", it's all just market research for all of this and trying to expand or something.
I'll tell Fomos this straight up -- make your global section professional before you even think of trying to play your media cards to try and expand the market because it is ridiculous.
Korean Casters> English Casters Free Vods> PPV Vods Voluntary free Streamers > PPV model for streams
That's only the current foreign community, ie males that know how to play RTS games. Look at the korean audience that goes to watch games. See how many women there are. Why do you think they come to watch? Do you really think they would watch the game if the announcers were speaking in English?
Announcers are the key for growth in the casual market. Growth in the casual market is impossible? maybe! But I think we have to try before we say it's impossible.
No cause English announces are guaranteed to suck.
People have this magical idea that Tasteless was actually good at casting back in Gom Leagues. I can tell you that you only say that because you haven't heard some of the good Korean commentator. They are on a different level.
The amount of money it would take to find a good English BW commentator is not worth any sort of effort because NONE EXISTS.
no one realized that the solution is pretty simple: a strongly accented asian english speaker
I understand that Fomos wants a bigger BW community mostly because they want to promote the use of their global section.
Make your global section actually usable and read less like some newspaper tabloid with retarded opinion pieces and terrible english and formatting. THEN you can talk about expansion.
But really? People see Fomos Global and think it's a farce. It's still a farce despite how hard you've been working there d_so cause of certain other contributors to that site. it's some clever scheme by Fomos. No wonder you posted shit that "Did SC2 bring you into BW", it's all just market research for all of this and trying to expand or something.
I'll tell Fomos this straight up -- make your global section professional before you even think of trying to play your media cards to try and expand the market because it is ridiculous.
The only viable scenario for bringing BW to a wider English speaking level, professionally, would not be a "cease and desist" scenario. It would be to employ the people who already do a great job, and try and offer any help you can to make the content even better/more professionally produced/more publicly visible. From there you already have a fanbase from the users who are still working and providing the same service, only better, and people will also like you from the start.
With relation to people saying "BW had it's chance" etc- I think people forget that Esports is SO different now than it was when BW was at it's foreigner peak. That peak was nothing compared to what it can be now, and it had so little public exposure, other than one or two niche websites hidden away. Like TL. It is not an exhausted market, it is an untapped market. I think china is a great starting point to work BroodWar into a wider consciousness, as they are more open minded towards progaming etc. Expansion needs to be slow unless you're gonna throw huge amounts of money at rapid expansion and forcing the game out there, like Sc2. It's the right idea to steadily expand, and get people hearing about BW.
I don't know why everyone is so against the idea. Afraid of change much? It's grow or die in life. That's a fact. In refusing to accept any plans to actually bring BW into a more public awareness, you really do doom it. If 1 in 50 people like the game (for example purely), then the more people see it, the more followers it will gain, and the better it will be in every respect.
It's time for people to stop willfully treating esports as such a niche sport, and be open to the concept of expansion, rather than being so stubborn. The poster who said "the novelty is worn off". What a ridiculous thing to say. This isn't about trying to push a novelty parade to a mass market- it's trying to get exposure to a really fantastic competitive sport, which has one hell of a lot of potential worldwide.
I think it would really depend on if they did a good job of it. GSL is trying to do this and it was like a periphery piece of crap. The music plays over the commentators, the commentators are usually not very interesting and overall it just feels tacked on, like the English dub of a foreign film.
If they wanted some guarantee of success, I would go with subtitling the already great commentary. Tasteless and Artosis might be worthy commentators if they came back to BW, but I don't know the chances of that, and I also don't think they get quite as excited as the Koreans.
It's pretty complex to implement is what I'm saying, and they really have to be committed to delivery a quality product, not giving the foreign community the same crap GSL did.
EPT
