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On December 23 2004 09:53 Liquid`Drone wrote:I both agree and disagree disagreeing with online poker not requiring a high amount of skill agreeing with gambling being inherently bad.  im quite certain I could be a good poker player if I put my mind to it and made serious effort at being good. I have most if not all of the common traits among good poker players cept greed for me to make money on poker someone else (who probably needs the money just as much if not more than I do) ends up losing it thats just not cool. I'd rather have a job that actually somehow contributes to society personally. gambling is really, really fun though. and I do occasionally play poker, both irl and online. but I'll never use it as a source of income, at least not a serious one.
That post was so fucking great, most jobs contribute something to the needs of a community, however being a professional poker player does not.
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Norway28920 Posts
On December 23 2004 13:43 Physician wrote:
But the facts remain. This is a Starcraft site, the majority are underaged not adults
according to the poll posted here, 2/3 of the tl.net forum users are 18 years old or older.
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Oh Physician! Mate i commend you for your patience on this one! I would have thrown my hands up in the air long ago and just let people learn these lessons the hard way.
I think it is very sad that many of the SC community are so heavily into Poker but more notably into the gambling kind of poker (ie; stakes). A lot of the people contributing to this debate play poker online with real money and they are not able to admit to us but worse still to themselves that this form of Poker has such a huge potential to damage their lives.
You people will learn that life is not so cut and dry. I am quite sure most intelligent people (which we all here are) know what right and wrong is. I am sure that we all know what is good for us and what is not. Unfortunately some of us (and this is not a rare thing) are not able to control ourselves to make the decisions in life which we know are the right ones.
Don't assume that everyone has your self control - don't disrepect people like Entropy who are old enough to know better than you. Believe me - with age comes wisdom - you young kiddies think you know everything - but *trust me* you don't! Entropy's point is completely valid.
When i was 16 i went to Germany for 3 months on exchange. All us Aussies spent a week together in Berlin before leaving for our respective host families. At 16 we were allowed to go to the pub and drink beer. So we did .. of course! One night some sexy ladies in Lucky Strike outfits walked around the pub handing out free packets of Lucky Strike cigarretes. Now back then (1992) this was OK but smoking was well and truly known as being bad for you. Later on the trip, while now a regular smoker of Lucky Strike we had a school class on the Marlboro man and how he died etc (of Lung Cancer). The students left the class and had our after class smoke like every other lesson - all looking at each other saying "What are we doing"... "Oh stuff it".
I smoked for 12 years and have only quit recently.
Don't you people ever think that some pretty fucked up seeds can't be planted by playing online (for money) poker! If you do - you are kidding yourselves! Let's not encourage this in a STARCRAFT (ffs) site.
Have respect for your elders and be honest to yourself!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Poker is a passion for much of this community
This website is for this community, and therefore reflects the interests of this community
This website is privately owned, and the owners are under no obligation, moral or legal, to halt advertising of poker clients
Poker can ruin one's life if one can't limit oneself. It doesn't inevitably lead to disaster.
A lack of ability to limit oneself is a failure of character, not an evil game at work
A blanket statement like "Poker is gambling and is therefore bad" is indeed the product of misinformation
Small ads do not encourage people to throw money away, as you seem to interpret them. They merely represent support of an interest that is so prominent in this community
If you don't understand the similarities between StarCraft and Poker, you are indeed misinformed of both
The statement "online poker requires no skill" is a joke
The statement "You aren't winning money by your poker skills, but rather from other people gambling their money away" makes all manner of tournaments or events which require an entry fee pointless and, in your mind, gambling (and therefore wrong)
This is not a good place for a moral crusade against Poker
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Valhalla18444 Posts
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If you pay your taxes on gambling winnings (as the law in most countries requires) you are contributing to society through poker. You can also just donate some of your winnings to charity.
If you are disciplined enough (which is a very big if) you can always make a living playing poker because it won't just die out, just as plenty of people live off of trading stocks because the stock market won't suddenly dissappear. In some ways pro poker is more secure than a regular job because there's no possibility that you will suddenly be fired.
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"It does not favor our community in any way and it will harm a few that make bad choices plus we will lose some starcraft players."
How does starcraft favor our community? We all waste time playing, getting absolutely nothing from it.
Poker, like starcraft, is fun. And, while poker costs more money (starcraft is a $20 activity), at least you have a chance of gaining money.
You seem to have something morally against gambling, and feel that you have to make a difference. Why?
EDIT: Part of me supports what you are doing, in that you are doing this yourself without trying to get the government involved. Keep it up, I guess. 
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Valhalla18444 Posts
implying that poker players are ruining starcraft is pretty outlandish too
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How do you think Rek could afford to live in Korea if it weren't for poker? I think poker is SAVING StarCraft.
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On December 23 2004 17:13 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
implying that poker players are ruining starcraft is pretty outlandish too
ofcourse they are not, its backwards
BW playesr are ruining poker :p
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
As for the deep complexities of Poker as rek implied ~ it is complex for u rek. As for the claim by Nazgul of me being "misinformed" - why Nazgul? What have I said that is misinformed about Poker or Starcraft? I am misifnormed about starcraft? I am misinformed about poker? It saddens me a little your unfair opinion and the motives behind them.
The fact that you would say this shows that you are extremely misinformed about Poker:
"You will hear invariably about the skills of being a Poker player and I will not argue that poker in person requires a degree of skill, but mainly in carding memory and reading people. Online poker has very little skill involved and it is basically a discipline of following a set of fixed rules based on probabilities and statistics."
What do you mean that "poker is complex for u rek" ....I'm having a hard time understanding ur meaning here. So plz explain it further.
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
~ fakesteve
You did say..
"This website is privately owned, and the owners are under no obligation, moral or legal, to halt advertising of poker clients"
Part of my article argues about responsibility and consequences. I do not mention obligations at any momment. In fact I point out everyone if free to do what they please.
I never said nor did I imply it..
"Poker is gambling and is therefore bad"
I never said nor did I imply it..
"You aren't winning money by your poker skills, but rather from other people gambling their money away"
I never implied..
"implying that poker players are ruining starcraft is pretty outlandish too"
I did say..
Gambling will ruin some peoples lives. That is a fact.
And you did say..
"This is not a good place for a moral crusade against Poker"
You also did say..
"If you don't understand the similarities between StarCraft and Poker, you are indeed misinformed of both"
Like I wrote in my article, I am not against Poker the game - and I made that clear. The article was not about my understanding of the similarities of Starcraft and Poker. I am quite sure you do not even know what my views are on that specific matter because I have not voiced them.
I am against the gambling industry pushing its precense into the gamer community, not just starcraft. I am against pushing gambling adds to the underaged - you can find what ever justifications you want. The article is a far cry from a moral crusade but rather a call for responsibility and good advice was given. I met you at wcg and although you were not the most mature of lads you did not strike me as a liar or dumb. Do not play with words with me or twist my words.
Do not discredit my words for I am an honorable person that only has given good advice, with good intention, for the site and to the readers. Think about what your saying and what your standing for. And ask yourself who really benefits from the adds?
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"I am against the gambling industry pushing its precense into the gamer community, not just starcraft. I am against pushing gambling adds to the underaged - you can find what ever justifications you want."
Why why why why why?
We don't have to click the ads! Stop trying to be everyone's parent! 
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If someones life is ruined by a banner on a site, then he DESERVED his life to be ruined.
About requiring skills well, compared to what, compared to chess nope, compaired to rock papers scissors well yeah.
And there are people that say that RockPaperSissors do require skill lmfao...
I like gambling, but in something that luck is that involved.
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Norway28920 Posts
as for the luck aspect of poker
in each individual hand, the luck aspect is absofuckinglutely huge
in one tourney, 30 minutes of ring game or a headsup, the luck aspect is large
in the very long run, as in someone who plays poker several hours a day for a couple of years, the luck aspect is well.. tiny. no larger than the luck aspect is for progamers in brood war.
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Yeah the more you play the luck is less involved still, sayin as much as programers in brood war is ludracris because the more you play bw, the less luck is involved in the overall results also.
anyway i enjoy domino more, its more mentally challenging than poker, it allows more strategy.
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On December 23 2004 18:53 Liquid`Drone wrote:
as for the luck aspect of poker
in each individual hand, the luck aspect is absofuckinglutely huge
in one tourney, 30 minutes of ring game or a headsup, the luck aspect is large
in the very long run, as in someone who plays poker several hours a day for a couple of years, the luck aspect is well.. tiny. no larger than the luck aspect is for progamers in brood war.
Luck does play a part at the amateur levels, but once you get to the top levels of play, strategy and skill become so much more important. Take any top player (Lederer, Negraneau, Ivy, Chan, whoever) and put them in a home poker game. On top of that, make it secretly known that they will never have the best hand in the group. I guarantee that these players will still destroy the game, even without ever having a true winning hand.
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Norway28920 Posts
well
there are faaaaaaaaaar less important brood war games played for a progamer than there are hands played for a "professional" poker player.
and whether you like it or not, luck is a significant factor in brood war games between players of near equal skill.
(luck with getting the right maps against the right players. or maps that favour your race period in tourneys. luck with getting to play against players who fit your style of play. and then ingame luck, like scouting the right direction, making a correct educated guess, being 1-2 seconds late/JUST in time.. )
a really skilled poker player will always make money over the course of a year. you can't have consistently bad luck over that long a duration. with brood war and there being far less tourneys around, I think you can. (extreemely unlikely of course. I just think its more likely than it happening in bw. or at least equally likely. )
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Hey i'm under aged andi love poker and Stsrcraft, bnut i play play money, its just fun!
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EPT
