EPTStarcraft and Poker
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
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taeWook
United States1367 Posts
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J1
Canada579 Posts
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
People are responsible for their own actions. You can't blame the ad for the buyer of the product, as long as the ads are honest. Personal responsibility > blame games. | ||
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racebannon
Canada1225 Posts
Who started it? when did it come to be? I know poker in general is rising in popularity but most other gaming circles I'm involved with have been untouched by this. It just seems to be a fad to me. and I do agree with most of your sentiments, online poker is pretty much all about taking money from retards | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
I am blaming no one. Nor is my article a blame "game". Just giving good advice and it very unfortunate you should see it as a "balme game". People are responsible for their own actions. Agreed. Even the choice to use online gambling adds. But do not forget also that many of readers of tl.net are not adults, but under aged - this complicates the matter a little more than your simplistic comercial approach. This is not a blame game, it is just a call for improvement in our community. I am an adult with 3 children who all play pc games. I just got fed up when I saw one too many thread fostering online gambling. It is a bad trend and it is wrong for our community. | ||
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Pacifist
Israel1683 Posts
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
I agree that gambling can fuck up people's lives. But it is still those people's fault. And it is the parents' fault if their kids play online poker when they don't want them to. | ||
GTR
51446 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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superlyduper
United States37 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
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draeger
United States3256 Posts
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
On December 22 2004 21:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: at first I was thinking good article but as I read on I can only conclude you are very missinformed about both poker and StarCraft. Enlighten us   | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
I am Entropy ~ a very misinformed guy about the starcraft community. I also have a little experience both in gambling addiction and online gambling fraud both from a medical and legal stance. It has been part of my training. I have always been a very active advocate agaisnt child abuse and gambling. Instead of rejecting my adivce out of the bat and discrediting it, use it. It is not bad advice for this site or any starcraft site at all. | ||
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J1
Canada579 Posts
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Izenra
Canada679 Posts
As you see I don't agree with you , talking for myself, cuz I am not a kid anymore and i know what im doing. But it's true that some kid can be influenced by that, and being talked in a sc site. But again, this is teamliquid, not a community sc-ONLY (like sc gamer :D), i think originially it was a bunch of friend who started the site, and it just grow big. Maybe TL could put something with poker like warning , or not for child, etc | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
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HowitZer
United States1610 Posts
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aBnarf
Bangladesh314 Posts
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
his post in 1/10th the words a) starcraft and poker are gaming b) gaming is ok c) gambling is bad d) poker is gambling e) underage gambling is bad f) tl.net shouldn't promote gambling (audience age) g) poker requires no skill h) blah blah | ||
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Casper...
Liberia4948 Posts
fuckit. most of the people here are grown folks. meat needs funds to run the site. and kids shouldn't gamble. still valid input tho | ||
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KH1031
United States862 Posts
-_- suppose the odd of you winning in a game is roughly 49% (The odd of casino winning would be, by default, 51%) Doesn't really sound that badly ripped for a game in casino. But...let's see... Say you played 10 games. Now the chance of you winning overall would be roughly 47.5% Say you want to try your luck further, and played 100 more games. Now the chance of you winning on that 100 games would be around 42% Okay, if you are truly hardcore, now you played 1000 more games after that. The chance of you winning is now diminished to a little more than 26% Basically, if you are feeling lucky, the very first hand will tell you if it is true or not (In this case, the odds of winning is 49% in the first hand). As the first hand you play you WILL have the best chance of winning some money. And if you DO happen to win on the first bet, mark my word here: GG NO RE Go buy yourself dinner or something...get the heck out of there. Don't be tempted to try out your luck again. You got lucky once, now the more you play, the more odds are AGAINST you (These odds are compounded as well). Bottom line, games in casino are legal rip-offs For the most part...I don't see casinos go bankrupt...they only get bigger and prettier. As a conclusion, The Bible tells us NOT TO BE GREEDY for a reason. On the contrary of the popular belief...God knows how to do math too... *If there is a question or problem with how I come up with those percentages, please PM me* | ||
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aBnarf
Bangladesh314 Posts
btw us playing poker is benefitial to everyone in this forum because there are no pop ups lol | ||
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Izenra
Canada679 Posts
poker required skillz in my opinion. its like bw actually! -always make scv and rally em to min and click as they come out -try to guess what your opponent will do according to what he has -Retreat if you got nothing, come back when you know you will kill the other - be CONSISTENT in order to have a good rec :D edit: to the second post before me, true gambling is idiot. That why smart player play poker. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
On December 22 2004 21:22 Physician wrote: Again it is not about whose fault it is. It is about influence, setting examples and doing the right thing. It is about putting a stop the insidiuos online gaming industry interest in our gamer community, not just Tl.net. It is about improving our community. Online gambling will not improve anyone here, so why foster it in any way? What is your definition of improve? How does BW "improve" any of us here? | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Zorglub1
Denmark532 Posts
I have one question for the poker freaks out there: If there are nine guys at a table playing poker, all nine guys knows the same things about poker i.e. pot odds and so on (poker is not rocket science). If this is the case please tell me how can anything else than the luck of the cards determine who will win? And if this is the case, the only one who will win in the long term is the house because of the rake. (im talking online poker here, but the same thing would be true in real games if every one has the same stone face and reading abilties as the others) | ||
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GTR
51446 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
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After)Eight(
Germany502 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
So true  And hours and hours of fun. That is why we play it, it is a game for most of us. For some they even made it into a job, and as long as they enjoy it I admire them. Thats what games are about ~ enjoying life through play. I was also very careful in my phrasing.. gambling will not ruin everyones life, because very few will become compulsive gamblers.. but a few will and that is my point, fostering it is not good. We are all potential heroine addicts if exposed, but you have to be exposed to it first - and there is a lot of young people prone to influence here. | ||
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FeelTheMoment
89 Posts
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
Also, BW could be considered as bad as gambling. We put so much time into it, and 99% get nothing out excecpt fun. Why not trash BW? Because you are losing time and not money? Time is potential money. | ||
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
I dont really ahve any problems with them advertising it, its all about self control. If you dont have enough of it then you are going to do some bad things in life, better to get it over now when you dont have as much to lose and learn your lesson then to fuck up later. If noone had self control everyone would be going around raping girls, killing ppl and doing moronicly stupid things just because they can. Its a personality flaw that is going to be exploited anyway for those with week self control. Its like when you are a kid, and your dad gives you your first taste of beer and you hate it, it leaves a good impression on you for ages, of course you will go with friends and start drinking when you grow up but it still... damn it i had an awesome point with this but i forgot... fucghadfogihadfg okay i sat here for 3 mins thinking, and i THINK it was something about gradually being introduced to something you are more likely to have more understanding about it and to be ab le to control yourself better. Just think of TL as providing this introductory course into monetary issues for teenagers. Free of charge! hmm my original idea was better though.. damn it. | ||
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yeehaw
San Marino888 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33369 Posts
On December 22 2004 23:19 Casper... wrote: and to that i say fuckit. most of the people here are grown folks. meat needs funds to run the site. and kids shouldn't gamble. still valid input tho well toptalent hosts the site, I dunno what meat is doing with the money  | ||
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
Which is far more interesting Ahhh wax, that makes sense, obviously meat is one of those weak minded fools and needs our money to keep his poker addiction going!!! okay thats it, i'm changing sides we must save meat, if that means to stop everyone else playing poker then so be it! | ||
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Izenra
Canada679 Posts
 . Your whole statement would occure if it was shown to the whole population, because most of the population need guidance and can't control thing by themself. But in the bw community, i think that most player are somehow wiser in general than the rest of the world. Jeez people must learn to have a control over themself True I first start to learn about poker here and the money things. But i didnt start off right away, ive read book and article about it for 2 month, and i began to play like 2 days ago o_O. And i double up my bankroll. I just prepared myself a lot, get information, analyse all of the situation ( hey if im not succesful, what 50 bucks is?). I think that is the a wise attitude you must have toward everything you do. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
How the fuck is that fair? | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
Good read. I really like your POW also leg :p | ||
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Izenra
Canada679 Posts
On December 22 2004 23:56 yeehaw wrote: It's okay here physcian - because the young people do not have access to credit cards and thus cannot gamble. Ug bad thing, im 17 , no crecit card, still play online real money, | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
You do not have children I guess so it will be hard for you to understand. I want to see your disdain for our social problems when it afffects one close to you, such as a son or daughter. I have seen many a brilliant child fall into the wrong path due to poor influence or lack of good parenting. It really annoys me to see more and more threads about where and how to gamble the starcraft community. Even the google adds are all about poker in this site lately. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
On December 23 2004 00:06 Physician wrote: ~ you do not have children I guess so it will be hard for you to understand. I want to see your disdain for our social problems when it afffects one close to you, such as a son or daughter. I have seen many a brilliant child fall into the wrong path due to poor influence or lack of good parenting. It really annoys me to see more and more threads about where and how to gamble the starcraft community. Even the google adds are all about poker in this site lately. If you have children, don't allow them to play. Enforce your feelings on your own kids, not on us. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak aloud and remove all doubt." Keep trying.. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
On December 23 2004 00:10 Physician wrote: ~ Proudcrappy "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak aloud and remove all doubt." Keep trying.. OK, what did I say that was wrong? | ||
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IntoTheWow
is awesome32274 Posts
On December 23 2004 00:07 ProudCappi wrote: Enforce your feelings on your own kids, not on us. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
On December 23 2004 00:14 IntoTheWow wrote: I fail to see what is wrong with that. If he doesn't want to see his kids gamble -- which is understandable -- then don't let them. However, don't ask tl.net to take down the ads because of that. | ||
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HowitZer
United States1610 Posts
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Smurg
Australia3818 Posts
It makes me sad when I see influential Starcraft sites promote online gambling. it was directly in line with the poker ads on this site.:O Co-incidence? | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
On December 23 2004 00:23 HowitZer wrote: ProudCappi would you agree that it's better to remove the influence than to try and remedy it over and over? Especially when the influence is as questionable as explicit poker ads on the front page. Imagine you have a kid and there is something threatening him/her. Do you let them go get hurt or do you remove the threat? "ProudCappi would you agree that it's better to remove the influence than to try and remedy it over and over? Especially when the influence is as questionable as explicit poker ads on the front page." No, it isn't. The world is full of influences. You have to learn how to make your own decisions. And what do you mean "over and over"? If your kid keeps gambling online with your credit, take his computer away. "Imagine you have a kid and there is something threatening him/her. Do you let them go get hurt or do you remove the threat?" Yes. But ads aren't threats. A threat is something that may harm you against your consent. An ad is something entirely different. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On December 23 2004 00:06 Physician wrote: ~ Leg You do not have children I guess so it will be hard for you to understand. I want to see your disdain for our social problems when it afffects one close to you, such as a son or daughter. I have seen many a brilliant child fall into the wrong path due to poor influence or lack of good parenting. It really annoys me to see more and more threads about where and how to gamble the starcraft community. Even the google adds are all about poker in this site lately. Thats exactly it, lack of good parenting, for my children thats not a social problem that would be my problem as a bad parent. Children should be raised to be able to think for themselves so they can choose their paths wisely. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Izenra
Canada679 Posts
On December 23 2004 00:23 HowitZer wrote: ProudCappi would you agree that it's better to remove the influence than try and repeatedly remedy the symptoms? Especially when the influence is as questionable as explicit poker ads on the front page. Imagine you have a kid and there is something threatening him/her. Do you let them go get hurt or do you remove the threat? err... influence are everywhere. Just look at Beer ads. Weither you like beer or not, beer is bad for your health. They always show the good side of it, the ''party'' atmosphere. These ads are EVERYWHERE. Kids are shown from age 11 that beer is fun. As they grew older, they must analyse everything they do, their repercussion in the future, the things around them, etc. If they can't make this thing , then they are what i call ''dumb people'' | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
But alas, how the years change people | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Smurg
Australia3818 Posts
On December 23 2004 00:53 Legionnaire wrote: A few years ago starcraft wasn't an incredibly ancient game, and of course we were all waiting for the almighty blizzard to release the StarCraft killer, warcraftIII ^^ But alas, how the years change people And boy, did it kill SC or what!  | ||
FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
playing limits you can afford and stopping when you've lost too much is dependant on the player, not the game | ||
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thelucas
Slovakia285 Posts
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loztdignity
Sweden176 Posts
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dork
Canada2207 Posts
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
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Liquid`RaSZi
Netherlands2766 Posts
On December 22 2004 21:29 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: at first I was thinking good article but as I read on I can only conclude you are very missinformed about both poker and StarCraft. So very true. Explain my ferrari parked outside if poker was gambling for all. | ||
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LumberJack
United States3355 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
StarCraft has taken alot from peoples lifes. These 'young' people that you do not want to be playing poker are already playing a highly addictive game which brings them nothing substantial in the future (except for FUN which is really, really important but that *also* goes for poker). They are playing this game every day spending many hours of their lifes. This game we promote through our site knowing it might be bad for a few of you out there to stay hooked to it. This is the dark side of the medal. As long as we want to offer you the pleasure of StarCraft information and community we are going to have to accept that there's people among you for who StarCraft is a bad thing rather than a good. I assume you can probably identify with this as most people have broken their CD once or twice themselves. Starcraft is not a kids game anymore. It's the oldest game by threefold at WCG and its gamers have grown up to become adults. It's not a bunch of kids visiting Team Liquid, most of us here are adults and you won't find many Americans who are not allowed to drive a car. As they are adults they can now make their own decisions whether or not they want to play poker. They should be old enough. Also you are not allowed to play poker under 18. And on top of that minors do not have any way to cash in money to pokersites unless permission is asked from an adult (creditcards). They simply can't steal cash in real-life and use it to play online poker. Poker is a dangerous game let there be no doubt, realize whether or not you can master it while staying completely objective. If the answer is no don't think you are going to win by pumping more money in, because it is NOT a game of luck. It is a game of skill and when you do not have this skill you will be consistently losing. It is not a lottery, but just like SC a game where strategy, insight and gut-feeling are very important. In fact StarCraft is a pretty good indicator to show which players will be good and which will not. To end this I would want to ask you to name me 1 person that signed up at poker through Team Liquid that is having the problems you described. | ||
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EAGER-beaver
Canada2799 Posts
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
On December 23 2004 08:15 EAGER-beaver wrote: never understood poker, it's not fun, unless you like the lows and highs of gambling. In that case you should just move to vegas, or lock your bank account cause you might have a problem go away | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
I admit I started an interest in poker because my friends really got into through watching it on TV and I saw alot of people here playing it like Rek and others @ Wcg so I decided to play a few times. It's hard, nothing surprising about that. I won alot so I decided to go online because there wasn't much competition amongst friends. Using play money, I won most of the time there to. Now I was faced with a choice, keep playing poker, or keep playing bw. I don't know how anyone could EVER choose poker over BW. Bw is like part of my personality, it's a part of who I am. I mean, nerdy as it is, I've been playing this game like 6 years. This is like my drug. Sure, I'll get into CS, Halo, Heroes, MTG, etc... but nothing brings me back like Starcraft. I've had many arguments with friends over BW vs MTG. My friend who plays MTG asked me why I quit playing and I should start up again cuz our circle of friends all play MTG semi-competitively. I told him I quit because it takes up too much time and money and you should too. Then he said to me ' It's my money, and it brings me joy, so let me use my money how I want and you use yours how you want ' That's what a lot of you have said in this thread. What my friend failed to realize is that years from now he is going to look back at MTG and say things like ' Yeah man I layed out all my cards on the bed and made new decks each night ' When I look back at BW, I'm going to say. ' Shit, I'm still playing it. ' I told him this. He got angry and started yelling at me. I reminded him that once, he played BW, and since then he has switched around many games. I told him how much fun he had playing with people he knew for free, for much longer, and for even more enjoyment. He then told me he meets people that are even more fun than on BW and that he plays with friends and I was the only friend of his that didn't play BW. I told him to look around [ Cuz we were in a MTG tournament ] I told him to look at the 40 year old fathers who bring their kids and play MTG. I told him to look at the hobo who spends all his money on cardboard cards. And I told him to look at the people who would get stuck in this game and nobody would ever remember them because they can see each other every time they play, and will hold that grudge not only against their opponent, but against MTG itself. Then I told him, you're going to be like that, if you truly like this game as much as you say. Then he digressed to say that he didn't. I told him, that is the way I love BW. Even though I suck, even though I won't make money, even though it's wasting my time, I won't become a sick addict who has no sense of reality. Card games ruin lives much more than computer games. Playing computer games, you never really see your opponent online so they have much less of a personality. It's harder to have the feeling of ' revenge ' If you lose, you quit the program, you don't have to stand there for the rest of the tournament staring at them watching them proceed. BW gave you fun first, not poker. Sure Poker is a more ' grown ' game. But look at all of you who are good at poker. 20s-30s? And what, you still say you love BW. We are becoming a community who now watches/talks about BW more and more and play it less and less. Why? VODs? Reps? No. It's because we are busy with other things. I've discovered a new mod in CS and that's all I play nowadays. But does this mean I forget about BW? I'm going to keep coming back to BW and I will play it faithfully until the day Blizzard shuts down battle.net.The poker players who make any money will forget about BW when it dies and only say they were good at it. Rekrul, you have a chance to become a pro-gamer. Even though I don't know of your poker skills, I'm highly sure that you have little chance to become a pro-poker player. If you do, congratulations and take that path. You will make more money than being a pro-gamer. But remember, you are in Korea. Your love of BW brought you there, and I'm sorry I pointed just you out, but you seem to be a top poker figure around here in our community. That's all. | ||
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Chibi[OWNS]
United Kingdom10597 Posts
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FrinkX
United States958 Posts
It takes a tremendous amount of skill / patience. I also have found that I do not have an addiction to it, infact, i don't like playing poker anymore, it heavily bores me. 95% starcraft, 5% poker | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
btw its gotten to the point where i care so little i play like 1 hour a day average and make a living if that | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On December 23 2004 08:27 Chibi[OWNS] wrote: gambling is both a strength and a weakness of man i dont know how thats supposed to be relevant to quote.. sigh.. rounders "im not playing for the thrill of the game here" | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On December 23 2004 08:36 FrinkX wrote: Entropy i agree with u in many ways, including the advertisement and influence to younger kids... but i disagree. I have made A LOT of money on poker, with only minimum loss. Overall, I'm up a rediculous amount. Poker will always be part of my life / income because it's very controlled and I can continuously make good money playing it, risking the least amount possible to gain the largest amount possible. It takes a tremendous amount of skill / patience. I also have found that I do not have an addiction to it, infact, i don't like playing poker anymore, it heavily bores me. 95% starcraft, 5% poker exactly | ||
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Waxangel
United States33369 Posts
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
Rekrul, you have a chance to become a pro-gamer. Even though I don't know of your poker skills, I'm highly sure that you have little chance to become a pro-poker player. If you do, congratulations and take that path. You will make more money than being a pro-gamer. Way to go being highly sure of something you know nothing about. I am already a pro-poker player. My income already rivals that of the top pro-gamers and we all know I have 0% chance of getting to their level anyways. | ||
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lingwu
Japan321 Posts
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scrapperdog
United States779 Posts
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draeger
United States3256 Posts
Now let's move this to poker. Theoretically, the only people who are legally allowed to gamble are people who are over the age of 21. By this age you are either about to graduate college or have already gotten a full-time job in the real world. This full-time job allows you more financial flexibility than a 16 year old who flips burgers for $6/hr for 15 hours a week. The only dangerous part of poker is if you are playing in games that you really cannot afford to lose at. For instance, if I jumped into a $5/$10 game on pokerstars that required a bankroll of $1000 to play properly, I would be playing with money that I could not afford to lose. However, to somebody who makes $150k a year, playing with $1000 is nothing special. It would be equivalent of me playing a $20 buy-in with friends. As long as you are playing with money that you can afford to lose then poker is not only fun and rewarding, but it also gives you a chance to take that money and turn it into even more. As you become financially responsible, you begin to be aware of what money you need to have for your expenses and what money can be spent for entertainment. Playing poker with your entertainment money is not evil or corrupting at all. In fact, it's no different than somebody spending $2000 a year on dvds, car audio, magic cards, comic books, fixing up old cards, or whatever their hobby could possibly be. Also, as others have said: The ads on this site are not really that harmful for the younger audience because in order to deposit money on the website, they are forced to find a credit card. If they do not have a credit card, they have to talk to their parents about it. If they do, then they should be intelligent enough to know that you don't buy something with your card that you cannot afford to pay for. Further, I guarantee that ANYBODY on this forum could be on the telephone and into a home poker game within a couple days of reading this post. Poker is everywhere now and to sit back and call it evil or corrupting is ridiculous. Everybody who plays poker doesn't win money: TRUE, but with even a slight amount of poker knowledge that sets you above your average player, you will generally come out ahead in the proper games. | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
Let's say entropy is very misinformed when it comes to both poker and brood war (in terms of both how you play it and why some people are good at it etc), that does not change the whole point of the article: THE POKER ADS ON THIS SITE MAY BE HARMFUL FOR SOME AND IS NOT NEEDED, WHY KEEP THEM!? That is what some of you fail to read, in between the lines. Now, the last part of that statement I cannot be sure of. Is the money you get from the ads needed, and have you no other client who would like to advertise on this site? Are the poker ads a MUST for this site to survive? If that is the case, they benifit to the community and should be kept. Otherwise I don't understand why they are needed. It is like this, just because you can see the same kind of ads on every other site in the whole web doesn't mean that they have to be here, does it? It is not our (the starcraft players) site but it is our community and we should do everything we can to keep it alive and keep it morally correct also? If the ads can influence young children to play poker (it is not hard as an underage to play poker. Me and my friends registered at expekt.com, played some freerolls and have since then made >1000 dollars), and we all agree on the fact that they shouldn't, why need we keep the ads here? And I think it is better to remain humble, than to claim superiority over others - -V | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
disagreeing with online poker not requiring a high amount of skill agreeing with gambling being inherently bad. im quite certain I could be a good poker player if I put my mind to it and made serious effort at being good. I have most if not all of the common traits among good poker players cept greed for me to make money on poker someone else (who probably needs the money just as much if not more than I do) ends up losing it thats just not cool. I'd rather have a job that actually somehow contributes to society personally. gambling is really, really fun though. and I do occasionally play poker, both irl and online. but I'll never use it as a source of income, at least not a serious one. | ||
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draeger
United States3256 Posts
On December 23 2004 09:48 ParasitJonte wrote: It is like this, just because you can see the same kind of ads on every other site in the whole web doesn't mean that they have to be here, does it? It is not our (the starcraft players) site but it is our community and we should do everything we can to keep it alive and keep it morally correct also? I still haven't seen anyone explain how poker is "immoral." How is advertising poker on this site any different than the advertising done for TLT a while back? Both of them encouraged starcraft players to spend money while neither option guaranteed any sort of profit from doing so. Even if underage players don't play online, they still have access to unlimited numbers of home games. My 17 year old younger brother has practically every poker accessory you can buy as well as a bi-weekly game that he plays in. I guarantee (as I said in my above post) that any underager who visits this site can find the exact same thing without using online poker. As far as whether the advertisements are necessary, I cannot say for certain. However I do know that this website pulls in a LOT of traffic and bandwidth a month. Paying for that is definitely not free or cheap. Advertisements help defer the cost so that Meat is not shelling out a lot of money every month from his own pocket to keep the website alive. Would you rather see poker advertisements or mandatory $1 payments from every person who wants to contribute at the beginning of each month? If the ads can influence young children to play poker (it is not hard as an underage to play poker. Me and my friends registered at expekt.com, played some freerolls and have since then made >1000 dollars), and we all agree on the fact that they shouldn't, why need we keep the ads here? Your last paragraph killed your argument. In fact, it probably did some persuading for the side that you are arguing against. There's quite a contradiction when you say "Underage gambling is bad.. but me and my friends did it anyways and made $1000." Do you think that's going to deter anybody from doing what you deem immoral? | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
If you call Meat immoral or unethical for doing this then you're a total fuck-tard...it's the parent's job to keep their kid off the poker, not ours. | ||
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Keanu_Reaver
Djibouti1432 Posts
you made a good point that advertising gambling in the presence of minors is pretty tactless (even though this is a privately owned website) but it was lost in your complete lack of knowledge on poker. and being upset because another game is taking players away from sc is just silliness | ||
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ParasitJonte
Sweden1768 Posts
Personally, I have no problems with poker NOR the ads. I play it myself as I said. My post was trying to clairify Entropys message and to agree with it to a certain extent. I realise now that it was somewhat poorly written T_T. But I just didn't feel like revising it draeger. I didn't mean that poker was immoral, just that advertising it on such sites as teamliquid may be. And the last quotation, I didn't mean that I was against the ads or poker. My aim was simply to adress all who argue for the ads in an odd way to see it from entropy's perspective which was that "IF we agree that underage gambling is bad, why need we keep the ads here?". Yes I understand that my first whole post seems as one big support to entropy but that wasn't exactly my intention.... Hope it is clear now =O | ||
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draeger
United States3256 Posts
On December 23 2004 10:19 ParasitJonte wrote: draeger. I didn't mean that poker was immoral, just that advertising it on such sites as teamliquid may be. And the last quotation, I didn't mean that I was against the ads or poker. My aim was simply to adress all who argue for the ads in an odd way to see it from entropy's perspective which was that "IF we agree that underage gambling is bad, why need we keep the ads here?". Yes I understand that my first whole post seems as one big support to entropy but that wasn't exactly my intention.... Hope it is clear now =O If underage gambling is bad, it should be the responsibility of the online poker site and the parents of the underage gambler who should be worrying about it. If you open up your weekly newspaper (which anybody can read), you see advertisements for alcohol and possibly tobacco related products. Just because they appear in something that is read by people of all ages does not mean that the newspaper is responsible for kids who are able to purchase alcohol. It's the fault of the store that sells it to them. Finally, if you look at a poll that was taken here a little while back, you will notice that 66% of the community is over 18. I don't know for sure about the other parts of the world, but I know 18+ in Europe allows you to do most things that an adult can. But regardless, anybody over 18 has the right to make their own decisions and in the process of growing up, they need to decide what is right and wrong and in the case of a bad choice, learn from it. If you're going to argue about the morality of exposing people under 18 to gambling, you might as well start filtering the site's content because there are constantly topics on drugs, sex and violence, as well as quite a bit of profanity used within those (and other) topics. If you feel that underagers are being exposed to bad things, you might want to start by arguing for something other than a little 120x60px banner at the bottom of the page. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
On December 23 2004 09:35 draeger wrote: Ack1027, instead of trying to judge your friend on the "quality" of his hobby, why not just accept the fact that people have the right to do whatever they want with their time and money? If he wants to play MTG, let him play. He's spending his own money and is not hurting anybody but himself. . Uh yeah he is hurting others. MTG is cardboard cards. Material possesions. By getting the rest of his friends to play with him and encouraging the whole thing he is hurting people. I'm not saying MTG is a bad game, it's how you play it. And unfortunately many people play it the wrong way. By the way people don't have the ' right ' to do whatever they want if it's their time and money. I don't know what country you live in. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
Perhaps choosing to use the advertised product is, but not the ads. | ||
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mmm.beer
Canada412 Posts
I personally think you are crazy to try to do this for a living without a backup career plan. However, if you want to play it as a hobby (like I do) or more seriously go ahead and buy in with $50 dollars and try the low-limit tables. But there is no reason why you should EVER need to buy in again. If you cannot make money on the low limit tables with your $50 you should not be there. | ||
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
On December 23 2004 10:01 Rekrul wrote: If you call Meat immortal or unethical for doing this then you're a total fuck-tard...it's the parent's job to keep their kid off the poker, not ours. Well i dunno about immortal.. | ||
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draeger
United States3256 Posts
On December 23 2004 11:39 Ack1027 wrote: Uh yeah he is hurting others. MTG is cardboard cards. Material possesions. By getting the rest of his friends to play with him and encouraging the whole thing he is hurting people. I'm not saying MTG is a bad game, it's how you play it. And unfortunately many people play it the wrong way. When you can proclaim that you have no material possessions, you can judge others for theirs. If you can tell me that you only have the bare essentials to get by in life, I'm sure I'll find something else that you have which is material. The computer you're using: If you're not at a public library or at work, it's a material possesion. If you have ever splurged on clothes: material. If you decided to spend an extra $200 on car accessories to make getting from place A to place B more comfortbale: material possession. If you have ever purchased a cd, dvd, vhs, or anything that plays those, you should know that they, too, are material possessions. The truth is, material possessions make people happy. People enjoy to have a long grocery list of items that they can proclaim they own. Why else would people buy huge houses, sports cars, paintings, etc? Who cares if he is attempting to persuade other people to play a game? It's no different than me telling a friend "Wow, you need to buy ___________ because it's really cool." In fact, you're telling people in your other posts that they should be playing BW instead of MTG. You are, in fact, doing the exact same thing you are complaining about, yet you feel it is justified because you enjoy BW more than MTG. I hate to break it to you, but peer pressure exists in all aspects of life. Those who succumb to something that they do not want to do are weak-minded not fucked by the system or the game. By the way people don't have the ' right ' to do whatever they want if it's their time and money. I don't know what country you live in. That was badly worded, but it still is generally correct. As long as your actions are not impeding on the freedom of others, you are allowed to spend your time/money on whatever you want. | ||
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loztdignity
Sweden176 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
unless you put in a lot of work yourself or are taught by someone who is very good, there's no easy way to get good at it. nobody simply "gets it" right away. the main thing is what some people have already said--it's how you manage the money you have. regardless of how good you are if you can't properly risk the money you have in your account you will end up losing. personally, it took me many months to get to a point where i could consistently make a $/hr that was worth it. frankly i believe poker is only fun when you're winning, and even then it consumes a lot of your time. it's hard work and i'm sure everyone who is making $2874984375/hr now has paid his or her dues in hours played, or has lucked out and found extremely good friends. there is something to be said about addictiveness--when i am regularly playing there's not much else i can think about. when you win you want to play more, when you lose you want to play more to make it back. that's why for the vast majority of people it's not healthy to play while you're in school. very much the same as starcraft. | ||
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NonYold
United States2814 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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KH1031
United States862 Posts
I agree with ya. the whole point of this thread is a lil lost after these pages... | ||
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Izenra
Canada679 Posts
On December 23 2004 12:32 Hot_Bid wrote: 1-unless you put in a lot of work yourself or are taught by someone who is very good, there's no easy way to get good at it. 2-there is something to be said about addictiveness--when i am regularly playing there's not much else i can think about. when you win you want to play more, when you lose you want to play more to make it back. that's why for the vast majority of people it's not healthy to play while you're in school. very much the same as starcraft. 1- True i just began poker and i read stuff for like 2 month about it. You just gotta be wise when entering something new. So far i made 35 buck in 3 sesion, 2 hour. NL HE 10 entry .05/.1 2- I think that poker is less addictive(for me) than starcraft used to be. After 2 and a half hour it become hard to kept focus ( even tho i tripled my entry at one table and win a little at the other). Gambling suck. Poker is not gambling | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
On December 23 2004 09:53 Liquid`Drone wrote: I both agree and disagree disagreeing with online poker not requiring a high amount of skill agreeing with gambling being inherently bad. im quite certain I could be a good poker player if I put my mind to it and made serious effort at being good. I have most if not all of the common traits among good poker players cept greed for me to make money on poker someone else (who probably needs the money just as much if not more than I do) ends up losing it thats just not cool. I'd rather have a job that actually somehow contributes to society personally. gambling is really, really fun though. and I do occasionally play poker, both irl and online. but I'll never use it as a source of income, at least not a serious one. That post was so fucking great, most jobs contribute something to the needs of a community, however being a professional poker player does not. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
On December 23 2004 13:43 Physician wrote: But the facts remain. This is a Starcraft site, the majority are underaged not adults according to the poll posted here, 2/3 of the tl.net forum users are 18 years old or older. | ||
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Verbloten
Australia750 Posts
I think it is very sad that many of the SC community are so heavily into Poker but more notably into the gambling kind of poker (ie; stakes). A lot of the people contributing to this debate play poker online with real money and they are not able to admit to us but worse still to themselves that this form of Poker has such a huge potential to damage their lives. You people will learn that life is not so cut and dry. I am quite sure most intelligent people (which we all here are) know what right and wrong is. I am sure that we all know what is good for us and what is not. Unfortunately some of us (and this is not a rare thing) are not able to control ourselves to make the decisions in life which we know are the right ones. Don't assume that everyone has your self control - don't disrepect people like Entropy who are old enough to know better than you. Believe me - with age comes wisdom - you young kiddies think you know everything - but *trust me* you don't! Entropy's point is completely valid. When i was 16 i went to Germany for 3 months on exchange. All us Aussies spent a week together in Berlin before leaving for our respective host families. At 16 we were allowed to go to the pub and drink beer. So we did .. of course! One night some sexy ladies in Lucky Strike outfits walked around the pub handing out free packets of Lucky Strike cigarretes. Now back then (1992) this was OK but smoking was well and truly known as being bad for you. Later on the trip, while now a regular smoker of Lucky Strike we had a school class on the Marlboro man and how he died etc (of Lung Cancer). The students left the class and had our after class smoke like every other lesson - all looking at each other saying "What are we doing"... "Oh stuff it". I smoked for 12 years and have only quit recently. Don't you people ever think that some pretty fucked up seeds can't be planted by playing online (for money) poker! If you do - you are kidding yourselves! Let's not encourage this in a STARCRAFT (ffs) site. Have respect for your elders and be honest to yourself! | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
This website is for this community, and therefore reflects the interests of this community This website is privately owned, and the owners are under no obligation, moral or legal, to halt advertising of poker clients Poker can ruin one's life if one can't limit oneself. It doesn't inevitably lead to disaster. A lack of ability to limit oneself is a failure of character, not an evil game at work A blanket statement like "Poker is gambling and is therefore bad" is indeed the product of misinformation Small ads do not encourage people to throw money away, as you seem to interpret them. They merely represent support of an interest that is so prominent in this community If you don't understand the similarities between StarCraft and Poker, you are indeed misinformed of both The statement "online poker requires no skill" is a joke The statement "You aren't winning money by your poker skills, but rather from other people gambling their money away" makes all manner of tournaments or events which require an entry fee pointless and, in your mind, gambling (and therefore wrong) This is not a good place for a moral crusade against Poker | ||
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Verbloten
Australia750 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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NewbieMcNasty
United States328 Posts
If you are disciplined enough (which is a very big if) you can always make a living playing poker because it won't just die out, just as plenty of people live off of trading stocks because the stock market won't suddenly dissappear. In some ways pro poker is more secure than a regular job because there's no possibility that you will suddenly be fired. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
How does starcraft favor our community? We all waste time playing, getting absolutely nothing from it. Poker, like starcraft, is fun. And, while poker costs more money (starcraft is a $20 activity), at least you have a chance of gaining money. You seem to have something morally against gambling, and feel that you have to make a difference. Why? EDIT: Part of me supports what you are doing, in that you are doing this yourself without trying to get the government involved. Keep it up, I guess.  | ||
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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GogUMagog
United States90 Posts
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baal
10541 Posts
On December 23 2004 17:13 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: implying that poker players are ruining starcraft is pretty outlandish too ofcourse they are not, its backwards BW playesr are ruining poker :p | ||
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
As for the deep complexities of Poker as rek implied ~ it is complex for u rek. As for the claim by Nazgul of me being "misinformed" - why Nazgul? What have I said that is misinformed about Poker or Starcraft? I am misifnormed about starcraft? I am misinformed about poker? It saddens me a little your unfair opinion and the motives behind them. The fact that you would say this shows that you are extremely misinformed about Poker: "You will hear invariably about the skills of being a Poker player and I will not argue that poker in person requires a degree of skill, but mainly in carding memory and reading people. Online poker has very little skill involved and it is basically a discipline of following a set of fixed rules based on probabilities and statistics." What do you mean that "poker is complex for u rek" ....I'm having a hard time understanding ur meaning here. So plz explain it further. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
You did say.. "This website is privately owned, and the owners are under no obligation, moral or legal, to halt advertising of poker clients" Part of my article argues about responsibility and consequences. I do not mention obligations at any momment. In fact I point out everyone if free to do what they please. I never said nor did I imply it.. "Poker is gambling and is therefore bad" I never said nor did I imply it.. "You aren't winning money by your poker skills, but rather from other people gambling their money away" I never implied.. "implying that poker players are ruining starcraft is pretty outlandish too" I did say.. Gambling will ruin some peoples lives. That is a fact. And you did say.. "This is not a good place for a moral crusade against Poker" You also did say.. "If you don't understand the similarities between StarCraft and Poker, you are indeed misinformed of both" Like I wrote in my article, I am not against Poker the game - and I made that clear. The article was not about my understanding of the similarities of Starcraft and Poker. I am quite sure you do not even know what my views are on that specific matter because I have not voiced them. I am against the gambling industry pushing its precense into the gamer community, not just starcraft. I am against pushing gambling adds to the underaged - you can find what ever justifications you want. The article is a far cry from a moral crusade but rather a call for responsibility and good advice was given. I met you at wcg and although you were not the most mature of lads you did not strike me as a liar or dumb. Do not play with words with me or twist my words. Do not discredit my words for I am an honorable person that only has given good advice, with good intention, for the site and to the readers. Think about what your saying and what your standing for. And ask yourself who really benefits from the adds? | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
Why why why why why? We don't have to click the ads! Stop trying to be everyone's parent! | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
About requiring skills well, compared to what, compared to chess nope, compaired to rock papers scissors well yeah. And there are people that say that RockPaperSissors do require skill lmfao... I like gambling, but in something that luck is that involved. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
in each individual hand, the luck aspect is absofuckinglutely huge in one tourney, 30 minutes of ring game or a headsup, the luck aspect is large in the very long run, as in someone who plays poker several hours a day for a couple of years, the luck aspect is well.. tiny. no larger than the luck aspect is for progamers in brood war. | ||
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baal
10541 Posts
anyway i enjoy domino more, its more mentally challenging than poker, it allows more strategy. | ||
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draeger
United States3256 Posts
On December 23 2004 18:53 Liquid`Drone wrote: as for the luck aspect of poker in each individual hand, the luck aspect is absofuckinglutely huge in one tourney, 30 minutes of ring game or a headsup, the luck aspect is large in the very long run, as in someone who plays poker several hours a day for a couple of years, the luck aspect is well.. tiny. no larger than the luck aspect is for progamers in brood war. Luck does play a part at the amateur levels, but once you get to the top levels of play, strategy and skill become so much more important. Take any top player (Lederer, Negraneau, Ivy, Chan, whoever) and put them in a home poker game. On top of that, make it secretly known that they will never have the best hand in the group. I guarantee that these players will still destroy the game, even without ever having a true winning hand. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
there are faaaaaaaaaar less important brood war games played for a progamer than there are hands played for a "professional" poker player. and whether you like it or not, luck is a significant factor in brood war games between players of near equal skill. (luck with getting the right maps against the right players. or maps that favour your race period in tourneys. luck with getting to play against players who fit your style of play. and then ingame luck, like scouting the right direction, making a correct educated guess, being 1-2 seconds late/JUST in time.. ) a really skilled poker player will always make money over the course of a year. you can't have consistently bad luck over that long a duration. with brood war and there being far less tourneys around, I think you can. (extreemely unlikely of course. I just think its more likely than it happening in bw. or at least equally likely. ) | ||
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Dave[9]
United States2365 Posts
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Dave[9]
United States2365 Posts
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Rekrul
Korea (South)17174 Posts
"To be blunt.. Poker is not a complex game. At least not for me and contrary to you perception I know the game. That is one of reasons there are far many more players of poker than chess players, its simplicity. Even proffesional players will tell you the learning curve is short. When you play in casino's carding does take some training but there is nothing complex about that either." Carding? What are you talking about what do you mean by that? This is truly sad. I'm not even going to bother responding to such idiocy but I'll let any other rabid wolf on this forum eat you alive! | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
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nL69)Rabbit
Botswana19 Posts
Its my contention that poker ads and promoting gambling in general is not a serious threat to the starcraft community and its 66% split of adults to underagers. This is assuming the poll Drone quotes when it shows that 2/3 of the visitors to teamliquid.net are of age. I find it ironic that you sir can preach away about the path poker will pave for those who play. "I see more and more threads about online gambling in our Starcraft community and this worries me because I know were it will lead those who follow that path." What about the path that those that play Starcraft go down. What happens to them? To beat an old horse I'm going to say it anyway, the very fact that you say "when our game is Starcraft, not poker, and most of our gamers are children or teenagers. It sets the wrong example and it will even foster some very bad habits in our future." truly shows your blind and misinformed stance on this starcraft vs. poker debacle. To prove my point here is my rebuttal to your short article. To begin with there are a few things everyone needs to understand and assume as high probability's. 1. Starcraft has ruined on a percentage vs. population basis as many underage/young adult lives as poker/gambling has or will. 2. Luck in Starcraft at its moderately above average to highest levels is in direct preportion to that of cash texas hold'em. There is no doubt in my mind as to why similiar groups of progamers show up time after time in the major leagues, or why top level proffesional poker players place and win tournament after tournament. 3. The skills needed to be succesfull in high level Starcraft happen to be ridiculously in tune with the exact skills needed for texas hold'em. For reference sake I will clarify and then go into more detail later on in the rebuttal: Above Average to Genius level intelligence and analytical skills. The ability to notice small details and act quickly according to your encyclopedia of strategies and experience. The ability to read a person based on how they act. The ability to perform under stress. Anyone who says starcraft is not stressful has never played at a high level. The ability to go into "auto-pilot" and instead of thinking just let experience take over and play for you. It is said that any top poker player knows instinctively what he's going to do in the first 5 seconds of a new situation arising just as any Starcraft player does. The ability to multitask and give nine different situations the attention they deserve simultaneously. The drive,dedication and ambition to achieve the highest level possible without letting something like a loss here or there get in your way. So that last point doesn't get thrown in my face it should suffice to say that I'm assuming any starcraft player that loses consistently will end up only playing for fun as will any poker player. There are many more similarities but for simplicity sake the above mentioned should hold. To prove my points I will present different case studies. Case Study #1 1. Starcraft has ruined on a percentage vs. population basis as many underage/young adult lives as poker/gambling has or will. To illustrate this point I present my own life for examination. I played starcraft/broodwars for 7 years straight between the ages of 13 and 20. I'm now 22. Between that time I would lend a guess that I played hard an average of 3-5 hours a day and chatted, watched vods/replays for another 5-7. The math adds up to roughly 7056 hours spent playing actual games and 11 760 hours discussing, strategizing and watching games for a grand total of close to 20 000 hours or 2.2 years straight 24/7 of starcraft play and discussion. Those numbers are calculated only using the low numbers in the average, I'm certain I probably invested more time than that but for simplicity sake it will suffice to say that I spent 35-40% of my time in the starcraft world for my entire teenage period young adult period. In 1995 when I was introduced to Starcraft I was an honours student just about to enter high school in the presigious International Baccalaurette program for Gifted Students. I lived in a semi-broken middle class home. My stepfather and I hated eachother. My mom drank a little too much and smoked too much pot plus we had just moved to a new city. I had the summer before school began to spend as I wished and so saw fit to play 12-16 hours a day. My only goal was to become top 100 in ladder which I did successfully. I was hooked. Right around this time then X'ds~Grrrr... started to profit from his gaming experience, earning him sponsorships and the "life" as most of us at that time would be lead to believe. I had a new goal. Seeing that it could be done, playing the game that I loved for a living, I practiced harder than ever. If a then 17 year old Giyom could do it then why not me? I continued to play 10 hours a day, forsaking all homework and assignments. I managed to pass grade 10 with something like a 65% average using only test scores and what assignments I could finish in the morning before school started. My stepfather and I continued fighting like crazy. My mother continued drinking too much and smoking too much. I was unpopular in school and had joined a small group of people whom are now my best friends but at this time more for survival then anything. The six of us were similar and would end up all growing together from hardcore nerds with fucked up lives into decent tax paying adults. Grade 11 something crazy happened though. 18 year old Grrr went to Korea. There was so much electricity and hype in the air. Everyone thought for sure that they were going to be next, it was only a matter of practicing harder, being in the right place at the right time. Thoughts of sponsorship wafted through everyone I knews dreams making the majority of our screwed up lives that much easier to deal with. I continued playing hard all through grade 11 once again forsaking school. Then my parents dropped a bomb thinking it would be wise for me to get a "real job" for the summer. I instead told them I hated them and escaped to my grandparent's for summer break. My grandparents are easy. I played 16 hours a day no problem with no complaints plus all the pop and munchies I could imagine. Before I left my parents I left a "suicidal poem" in a place my mom would for sure see it. When I returned home they were a lot easier to deal with but only for a short time. I think they were definately afraid of what would happen if we all continued fighting(I never trully was suicidal but faked it a bunch of times). I remember once grade 12 started that we had our class photo's taken. Shortly after someone showed me my grade 11 picture and man had I gained weight over the summer, like 70 lbs. I went from 6'4 210 lbs to 6'5 280lbs and a few months later over 300 lbs. Grade 12. I was still beyond hooked. Everyone I played with was as well. The gifted students program that I was in was funny, we only had to go to school 1/2 the time because it was assumed we were genius's and would make the most of the 1/2 we didn't have to be at school. Whats funny to look back on now was that as a requirement for the program we had to volunteer 75 hours a year and I did my time at the addiction and gambling hotline, talking on the phone to those desperate for help! So back to only being at school 1/2 the time, the other half I played bw's nonstop and a few weeks into grade 12 completely stopped going to class. I showed up only for major tests, without any preparation. I remember the last day of finals in the 1st semester I was called into the principals office and we started going over my absences. 66 in 75 days. WOW. Whats funny is that my high school has a "ZERO TOLERANCE" policy on absenteeism and you were supposed to be expelled after 13 THIRTEEN MISSES!. Whats funnier is that it was totally waived in my case because I was in IB. They had never had anyone drop out in the history of the program or not graduate, so they quietly swept me under the carpet. They called my parents and informed them as to what was happening and guarnteed my graduation as long as I passed my next semester. No repremands, nothing but smiles. My parents banned me from the computer and I rebelled even harder. I started fighting physically with my step dad, staying over at friends house's(so that I could play starcraft all night without hassles) and when possible sneaking into my parents office when they weren't home to use the computer. I remember the day they came home and caught me, I ended up punching my step dad right in the nuts when he tried to grab me from behind at the computer and then running and locking myself in my room. Later that night he knocked on my door showed me a key to a $300 lock system he had installed on the office. It was ok though cause when they went out of town for a funeral a week later I had a locksmith come over and make me a key for $40! So I passed high school barely and graduated. I decided to take time off from going to university, mostly because my grades weren't good enough and to piss my parents off even more. A month after graduation when my parents were supposed to be out town for the weekend I had a party at the house and a bunch of stuff ended up getting broken. Plus for most of the party I was in the office playing Starcraft and a bunch of people had came in and russled stuff around that I hadn't noticed. Being that my parents are anal clean freaks they had noticed the supposed locked office was dirty and that the house was dirty in all the places I hadn't thought to clean(fingerprints on the wall). I was at work when they came home. My stepdad showed up at the Subway I was working with my toothbrush/paste a few other essentials, my wallet and said your out see you later have a good life. So basically I was just turned 18 and fucked. As luck would have it though I had applied for College for the next semester and had a bunch of student loans coming my way. So I went to the bank and applied for mastercard/visa which of course they had no problem giving me since I was now a registered college student! First time on my own, huge credit limit....you do the math. I bought a computer and played starcraft endlessly. Nobody to stop me now. I cut my friends out of my life. When school started up I told myself I wouldn't fuck myself up. I made it halfway through the first semester when all these people started hitting it big in korea. Instead of playing 8-10 hours a day I started ditching school and playing 16-18 hours a day. My life was starcraft. I used all my student loans to finance my lifestyle, living and breathing starcraft. I used what little money I had left to buy nice clothes and make an appearance towards my parents as haha fuck you I'm doing just fine. I continued on like this for a year and a half before I had so many creditors calling me, so many bills due, non-payment on rent for 2 months in a row before I finally got a job. During that year and a half of 24/7 starcraft I did whatever neccessary to scrape buy. I got overdraft at any bank that would have me and I used it all. So after all that, I picked myself up and got a real job. I sold my computer and stopped playing broodwars. I still have never payed anything off. For the last two years I've ran away from reality. Last year I hitchhiked from Calgary all throughout North America and Mexico for 9 months. Then I discovered Tofino on Vancouver Island. I've been here since, surfing and working my ass off to become normal for once. Those nine months of homeless hitching and wandering were really good for me. I saw the absolute bottom of the barrel. I have learned so much about myself, who I am, what I have done and where I'm going that its astounding. Nonetheless I am only in the last year now really getting my life back on track. I'm making good money as a fish farmer, I own a van and live in a very nice house. Fuck I even have a dog and obviously a computer. Whats the conclusion of this 1st case study? I am only a minor case of how fucked up your life can get as a result of Starcraft. I know personally of many more dramatic and shocking cases. Everything I did to myself, I won't argue against that. At least I can fix what I did, all it takes is time. Poker can do these same things true. But at least in poker an above average player will make money. I never saw a single penny from broodwars. Will I play poker? You bet your ass I will. I have been playing hard for the past while and will continue on this course. I have invested 2.2 years of my life into starcraft, the least I can do is take the skills I learned and use them for something profitable. Why did I never become a progamer? I blame it on speed and micromanagement, two things I just could never seem to get my mind around. If I had the speed of Yooi and the micro of Xellos well then things probably would be a lot different. My life would still be fucked but at least I would be in Korea! Life is really to short to play what if's though. I meant to conclude this part by saying I wish that someone had shown poker to me around this time in my life. I do believe things would be a lot different, for better or worse I don't know. I wasn't aware just how addictive my personality was, but broodwars was not getting me anywhere even though I lived on the dream that it would. Case Study #2 2. Luck in Starcraft at its moderately above average to highest levels is in direct preportion to that of cash texas hold'em. There is no doubt in my mind as to why similiar groups of progamers show up time after time in the major leagues, or why top level proffesional poker players place and win tournament after tournament. I definately do not need to go deep into this. Look at Boxer, Grrrr, Yellow or for that fact any progamer. They have all enjoyed continued success. Some on higher levels than others, but the fact is that they are being paid to play Starcraft at a high level. They have all won tournies and will all continue to place and win. On the reverse look at the top WPT poker players. Don't think for a second that these guys are only making money off of poker. Think about book deals, sponsorships, promotional opportunities. That aside, it is guarnteed that they are all profiting off there ring skills as well because they have the skills and the experience. They will all be able to live off there knowledge for the rest of there lives, because it doesn't matter how long the cards go cold for they WILL win in the long run. Texas holdem is that kind of game as is Starcraft. Case Study #3 3. The skills needed to be succesfull in high level Starcraft happen to be ridiculously in tune with the exact skills needed for texas hold'em. For reference sake I will clarify and then go into more detail later on in the rebuttal: Above Average to Genius level intelligence and analytical skills. The ability to notice small details and act quickly according to your encyclopedia of strategies and experience. The ability to read a person based on how they act. The ability to perform under stress. Anyone who says starcraft is not stressful has never played at a high level. The ability to go into "auto-pilot" and instead of thinking just let experience take over and play for you. It is said that any top poker player knows instinctively what he's going to do in the first 5 seconds of a new situation arising just as any Starcraft player does. The ability to multitask and give nine different situations the attention they deserve simultaneously. The drive,dedication and ambition to achieve the highest level possible without letting something like a loss here or there get in your way. So that last point doesn't get thrown in my face it should suffice to say that I'm assuming any starcraft player that loses consistently only plays for fun as will any poker player. There are many more similarities but for simplicity sake the above mentioned should hold. Do I really need to go into more detail. This point was to prove moreso that although poker is a game of chance which Starcraft is as well that the above mentioned skills take a high majority percentage of what is needed to win the game. On a final note I would just like to say thank you Physician for writing your article. It seemed this debate needed to come up sooner or later. I have nothing against pushing gambling from an advertising and discussion standpoint on those that play starcraft. It is my hope that anyone who has also devoted so much time to developing the skills needed to play high level starcraft will make the transition over to poker where the profit for those skills is virtually guarnteed. Someone with top level starcraft experience will make money in poker 9 times out of 10 And for those that don't I believe they are not going to be foolish enough to keep throwing there money away. Be reasonable in your expectations, play hard to meet your expectations and remember that its not only a game its real life. Play Starcraft and Gamble. Play Poker and Gamble. Might as well make a profit. Donnie Gabriel Murray | ||
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TreK
Sweden2089 Posts
Ofcourse poker is some gambling, but its mostly based on % ... and we all know that if u play after % u will win in the long run...and that is what the smart kids does. On starcraft u probably wont earn much $, and in poker u will probably earn some or alot of money after a couple of months if u get learned by someone good and u actually know what u are doing. Simply : BW is nothing u can earn money on and it will never be...earning money is fun and that is what poker is about...nothing else, i dont think the game in itself is much entertaining unless there is money in it...for my own part i still enjoy computer games more than poker but im still practising poker with my friends and such to see if its something for me. right now... Poker > Starcraft in many ways...there are not many ppl who makes money in starcraft...there is not as big of a market as many would think =] | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
 Very good response. ggnore | ||
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VdP]EpiphaNy
United Kingdom992 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
and not all that many koreans either playing starcraft cause its a whole fucking lot of fun is something millions of players has accomplished =] | ||
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nL69)Rabbit
Botswana19 Posts
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20041221/1a_cover21.art.htm Interesting stuff. | ||
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Daishi
United Kingdom106 Posts
I played for a living for a year. I played a third of a million hands, and consistently won. That is not luck. I may not be the best player around, but I'm certainly in the top couple of percent, and I'm there because I know an awful lot about the game, and I understand how to make money at it. There is skill in online poker. If there were not, there would be no professional players. I do not gamble, I have NEVER played any casino games bar poker, and have NEVER placed a bet on any event (except for $5 with friends, about trivialities). 85% of poker players lose. 10% break even. 5% win. Many of the Starcraft players who claim they win are actually breaking even, and some are losing. That's the nature of the game - it's based purely in the long term (so as to avoid statistical variation), and so short term wins can convince you that you can beat the game when you cannot People can choose for themselves whether they play or not. I do not think that poker sites should advertise on battle.net for sure, but anywhere else, and it's the player's choice. Anyone can go to the shop and buy chocolate - it's advertised everywhere. If they get fat, is that their fault or someone elses? If someone becomes an alchoholic because they saw Bud advertised on TV and started drinking out of control, is that their fault or not? You are responsible for your own actions. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28665 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
Rekrul and I were talking about it. A comparison between poker/starcraft/chess: actually I'll just post the msn chat: 12/24/2004 12:33:18 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. To be blunt.. Poker is not a complex game. At least not for me and contrary to you perception I know the game. That is one of reasons there are far many more players of poker than chess players, its simplicity. Even proffesional players will tell you the learning curve is short. When you play in casino's carding does take some training but there is nothing complex about that either. Reply 12/24/2004 12:33:29 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. =] 12/24/2004 12:34:10 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision err 12/24/2004 12:34:20 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision thats a reply to that forum thread, not to me, right? 12/24/2004 12:34:25 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. yeah 12/24/2004 12:34:29 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. well 12/24/2004 12:34:31 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Entropy sent me that 12/24/2004 12:34:33 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. in private message 12/24/2004 12:34:40 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. (entropy is physician on TL) 12/24/2004 12:35:12 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision well hes dumb cuz that isnt relevant at all 12/24/2004 12:35:22 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision its simple in that its easy to learn, not master 12/24/2004 12:35:31 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. yes 12/24/2004 12:35:35 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. i've always said 12/24/2004 12:35:38 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision if it was so easy wed be out of a job 12/24/2004 12:35:48 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. poker is simple to learn complex to master 12/24/2004 12:35:54 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. starcraft is complex to learn but simple to master 12/24/2004 12:36:11 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision hehehe 12/24/2004 12:36:14 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision thats a funny saying 12/24/2004 12:36:20 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision kind of true though 12/24/2004 12:36:51 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision just reply to entropy with 12/24/2004 12:36:59 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision 'if that was true me and alot of people i know would be out of a job' 12/24/2004 12:37:06 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision not much he can say to that, unless hes stupid 12/24/2004 12:37:24 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. lol 12/24/2004 12:38:20 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision and the reason there are more poker players than chess players is because its a more social game/much more fun 12/24/2004 12:38:25 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision u play poker to have a good time 12/24/2004 12:38:28 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision u play chess to win 12/24/2004 12:38:44 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. ya 12/24/2004 12:38:53 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. how can he say chess takes more skill too 12/24/2004 12:38:59 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. that game is hella memorization 12/24/2004 12:39:05 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. well, a lot of it is 12/24/2004 12:39:41 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision ya 12/24/2004 12:39:44 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision to put it simply 12/24/2004 12:40:07 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision its easier to make a computer that can beat top chess players than it is to make one that beats top poker players 12/24/2004 12:40:10 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision wow say that to him 12/24/2004 12:40:15 AM Dan - x-ray vision you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. haha 12/24/2004 12:40:18 AM you think heman ever played recreational frisbee? prolly was too busy. Dan - x-ray vision owned lol | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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TheGreenBeret
United Kingdom548 Posts
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
they are there to have fun and gamble i give it to them, they give me their money. no one is forcing them to play. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
"and I will not argue that poker in person requires a degree of skill..". be good if people read too..still the article is not about poker or skill required for poker ~ its about promoting online gambling through adds and other kick backs in the starcraft community.. yes the gambling industry is heavily promoting it in the different gamer communities, and yes gambling poker adds are everywhere, but they are here due to a choice of the webmasters of this site.. It does not have to be that way, just my feelings about the subject. Why? Because I like this forum and I think the gambling influence is wrong. As for - we are all repsonsible for our own actions - true.. even children and teenagers carry a responsibility for their own actions, and everyone is not inmune for the consequences of them.. Ask yourself who really benefits from the adds? Ask yourself why are they here? | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
On December 24 2004 10:35 Physician wrote: Let me repeat myself.. "and I will not argue that poker in person requires a degree of skill..". be good if people read too..still the article is not about poker or skill required for poker ~ its about promoting online gambling through adds and other kick backs in the starcraft community.. yes the gambling industry is heavily promoting it in the different gamer communities, and yes gambling poker adds are everywhere, but they are here due to a choice of the webmasters of this site.. It does not have to be that way, just my feelings about the subject. Why? Because I like this forum and I think the gambling influence is wrong. As for - we are all repsonsible for our own actions - true.. even children and teenagers carry a responsibility for their own actions, and everyone is not inmune for the consequences of them.. Ask yourself who really benefits from the adds? Ask yourself why are they here? this is a site for people who think for theirselves. | ||
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
So that's how missinformed you are about poker (Rekruls post). Let's move on to the StarCraft part. StarCraft has taken alot from peoples lifes. These 'young' people that you do not want to be playing poker are already playing a highly addictive game which brings them nothing substantial in the future (except for FUN which is really, really important but that *also* goes for poker). They are playing this game every day spending many hours of their lifes. This game we promote through our site knowing it might be bad for a few of you out there to stay hooked to it. This is the dark side of the medal. As long as we want to offer you the pleasure of StarCraft information and community we are going to have to accept that there's people among you for who StarCraft is a bad thing rather than a good. I assume you can probably identify with this as most people have broken their CD once or twice themselves. Starcraft is not a kids game anymore. It's the oldest game by threefold at WCG and its gamers have grown up to become adults. It's not a bunch of kids visiting Team Liquid, most of us here are adults and you won't find many Americans who are not allowed to drive a car. As they are adults they can now make their own decisions whether or not they want to play poker. They should be old enough. Also you are not allowed to play poker under 18. And on top of that minors do not have any way to cash in money to pokersites unless permission is asked from an adult (creditcards). They simply can't steal cash in real-life and use it to play online poker. Poker is a dangerous game let there be no doubt, realize whether or not you can master it while staying completely objective. If the answer is no don't think you are going to win by pumping more money in, because it is NOT a game of luck. It is a game of skill and when you do not have this skill you will be consistently losing. It is not a lottery, but just like SC a game where strategy, insight and gut-feeling are very important. In fact StarCraft is a pretty good indicator to show which players will be good and which will not. To end this I would want to ask you to name me 1 person that signed up at poker through Team Liquid that is having the problems you described. Name me one. Please. Just one. Ask yourself who really benefits from the adds? Ask yourself why are they here? First I just want to say how sad you are for always having something to say about TL. In case some of our readers missed it Physician's aka is Entropy (starcraftgamers admin) taking any opportunity to bash our site. It gives me the feeling the reason of your post is not nobility, but jealousy. However I do think with this topic you have brought up a valid discussion that had to be adressed sooner or later. This is a WEBSITE. And it is not yours. It is mine. When you are watching TV you will see all kinds of adds (TV is a service for which you actually PAY already, this website is for FREE). Casino's, alcohol and whatnot. Do you actually call up the TV station to make complaints about it? 99% of the commercials are meant to make money of people that are easily influenced. Whether it's for a casino or a clothing company their sole goal is to make profit. You buy cloths; you have something to wear, you go to a casino; you go there to have a good time. Just like how you pay for a night of bowling. I do agree that gambling is something that should be kept away from children. But as I already stated I haven't heard of any kiddo depositing (and losing) money into PokerStars because of our adds. As so many have mentioned before me Poker is a game of skill. It's more like playing a strategical game for money than gambling, comparable to a StarCraft tournament with entrance fee. Ask yourself who owns this website which is providing the best possible StarCraft news for free. | ||
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MiniRoman
Canada3953 Posts
But then again he gave me all the money I lost oo~ | ||
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dronebabo
10866 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
And if you "get the feeling" that the post I posted was "out of jelousy" you show your nature and part of your personality. You could not be more wrong on that aspect even if you tried. But the comment does fall right in place with placing gambling adds to "your" readers for "your" benefit. The adds pay for what? The news provided in this site, much as in sg.com or any other site is the work of many many starcraft players who volunteer them without asking for anything back - including most if not all your admin writers. And yes it is then "your" resposibilty to foster gambling to some of your underaged readers. It is indeed "your" choice then. You may find any justificiation you want for it, it is "your" site and your free to do what you want. The article was good advice and in no ways a personal attack on anyone, until you brought it upon yourself as such, which is why I was surprised by "your" reaction dismissing it as "misinformation" and now "jelousy". As for me naming a victim of compulsive gambling started after clicking on one of "your" gambling adds do not worry. They will name you one day. Their fault anways, no? If they were fools enough to become compulsive gamblers shame on them, no? I am sorry I stepped over someone's financial interest. For this I apologize. I did not even know your the sole owner of this site. Now I know and now I understand. Anyways sorry it was not my intention to shake your racket. Have a happy holidays. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 24 2004 11:57 Physician wrote: I do not work in Starcraftgamers. I left a month ago. I have been reader this forum long before I even posted at SG.com and I am starcraft player long before both - and I have played poker long before that. Starcraft does beat them all in fun. Underaged gambling is bad. Never said poker is bad. I agree. You already said this before and then I agreed as well. And if you "get the feeling" that the post I posted was "out of jelousy" you show your nature and part of your personality. You could not be more wrong on that aspect even if you tried. But the comment does fall right in place with placing gambling adds to "your" readers for "your" benefit. I don't think you know me very well. This site has been online for years now. I have probably put more time in making this site to what it is than anyone else. Why did I do this? For 2 years all this site did for me (*financially*) is that Meat and I (we're co-owners of this site) had to put money in it so that you guys (that includes you) could enjoy what I hoped to become the best and most infuential StarCraft site around. Rarely has anyone ever thanked either of us, and you know what; that's all good. I know there's thousands of visitors enjoying it every day, and knowing this has always been enough. The poker adds do indeed benefit me as well and selfish as I am I'd say that's a good thing. I've already explained why I don't think it is immoral to have them, but you keep circling around my words avoiding any actual confrontation of what I'm saying. Poker has helped alot of people, just like SC has. Both have also done harm (though through TL I don't know any poker case) and yet here we are offering daily SC updates. The adds pay for what? The news provided in this site, much as in sg.com or any other site is the work of many many starcraft players who volunteer them without asking for anything back - including most if not all your admin writers. And yes it is then "your" resposibilty to foster gambling to some of your underaged readers. It is indeed "your" choice then. I guess the adds are going to pay for my new porsche. Is it also my responsibility to make sure none of you play SC too much? Devote too much time to it? Because I guarantee you that SC is doing much more harm to the lifes of this community that that poker is doing. Maybe you should go make a rant against playing SC. You may find any justificiation you want for it, it is "your" site and your free to do what you want. The article was good advice and in no ways a personal attack on anyone, until you brought it upon yourself as such, which is why I was surprised by "your" reaction dismissing it as "misinformation" and now "jelousy". As already said your post brough up an important issue definitely worth discussing, however at the same time YOUR post was horrible and full of missinformation. Now everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it is owed to them that they are provided with CORRECT statements and facts so that they can form and judge everything properly. As for me naming a victim of compulsive gambling started after clicking on one of "your" gambling adds do not worry. They will name you one day. Their fault anways, no? If they were fools enough to become compulsive gamblers shame on them, no? Yes that would be their fault, however I'd feel partially responsible for it at the same time. Just as I would feel partially responsible for crashing into someone with my car, no matter how big of a mistake he made by violating traffic rules that caused the accident to happen. I am sorry I stepped over someone's financial interest. For this I apologize. I did not even know your the sole owner of this site. Now I know and now I understand. Anyways sorry it was not my intention to shake your racket. Yea it indeed is hardly your business. You have not paid for a service and we are what I would think to be something great to the StarCraft community. After puttiing in so much time I still have to deal with shit like this. Meat and I started and own this website. This is a fact that stands even though all decisions are democratically decided among all staff members. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
Was it, really? No more need be said then. I see that you have understood my point and I am glad it was read by most. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
Do you blame the televisions station that advertise McDonald's for making people fat? | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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scrapperdog
United States779 Posts
On December 23 2004 23:37 Daishi wrote: Poker is only gambling if you are no good at it. I played for a living for a year. I played a third of a million hands, and consistently won. That is not luck. I may not be the best player around, but I'm certainly in the top couple of percent, and I'm there because I know an awful lot about the game, and I understand how to make money at it. 85% of poker players lose. 10% break even. 5% win. Many of the Starcraft players who claim they win are actually breaking even, and some are losing. That's the nature of the game - it's based purely in the long term (so as to avoid statistical variation), and so short term wins can convince you that you can beat the game when you cannot You are responsible for your own actions. I think more than 5% win ... probably 70% lose, 10 % break even and 20% win ,,, the break even point for me was over pretty quick went something like this first 2 months - lost 3rd month - broke even 4th month to present- won In my opinion 1 in 5 players are winners, not 1 in 20 ... ppl do lie about being winners but I have won well over a grand above what i lost when i started and i am not in the top 5% of players, not even close. | ||
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(orky)oTTeR
France180 Posts
On December 22 2004 23:55 Legionnaire wrote: Oh drug users, another section of the populace i like to see throw their lives away! I dont really ahve any problems with them advertising it, its all about self control. If you dont have enough of it then you are going to do some bad things in life, better to get it over now when you dont have as much to lose and learn your lesson then to fuck up later. If noone had self control everyone would be going around raping girls, killing ppl and doing moronicly stupid things just because they can. Its a personality flaw that is going to be exploited anyway for those with week self control. Its like when you are a kid, and your dad gives you your first taste of beer and you hate it, it leaves a good impression on you for ages, of course you will go with friends and start drinking when you grow up but it still... damn it i had an awesome point with this but i forgot... fucghadfogihadfg okay i sat here for 3 mins thinking, and i THINK it was something about gradually being introduced to something you are more likely to have more understanding about it and to be ab le to control yourself better. Just think of TL as providing this introductory course into monetary issues for teenagers. Free of charge! hmm my original idea was better though.. damn it. You're not a very smart person. | ||
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Cresfy
Israel977 Posts
btw i dont think your signature is gonna help much :X | ||
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Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On January 20 2005 03:28 (orky)oTTeR wrote: You're not a very smart person. Fortunately for me i dont really give a damn what you think. So, cheers big ears  Oh yeah, dont bring up old topics again, unless you are going to add some substance to it. | ||
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Ghardo
Germany1685 Posts
Over the years I developed a standpoint where I regard things more sober and accept the past as it is and something I chose out of my free will which is after all what makes out individuality.(note: this is only a description of the negative sides of online gaming, the positive ones like making friends, opinion exchange etc. you all know ) And though it sometimes was just all fucked up, it was what made me come to certain realizations and that's why I also stopped regretting that time, which is pointless after all, as we are living in the present. But ... when I hear that someone preaches how bad gambling is etc. and what it can lead to (which is obviously not wrong - but it's more the "what it can lead to in certain cases" ) and gives starcraft as an alternative I have EXTREMELY MIXED FEELINGS with that. It's of course enjoyable to a limited extent, but it's so easy to overstep the mark and ending up being totally addicted which leads to personal tragedies like the one described above. Being addicted to starcraft and having all the sideeffects of it may be better than to lose a lot of money by gambling, as money is what dominates our society, but it isn't a good advice either if you ask me. If you want to give good advice, say "Don't gamble - Spend time with your family and friends". I don't have the claim to confirm anyone in his/her view of these things or on the contrary indirectly critizising anyone for his way of life with what i wrote. It's just my subjective experience and as I'm a very sensitive person this might affect me more than others who don't have a clue of what i'm talking. | ||
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nullmind
1303 Posts
On December 23 2004 14:03 Izenra wrote: 1- True i just began poker and i read stuff for like 2 month about it. You just gotta be wise when entering something new. So far i made 35 buck in 3 sesion, 2 hour. NL HE 10 entry .05/.1 2- I think that poker is less addictive(for me) than starcraft used to be. After 2 and a half hour it become hard to kept focus ( even tho i tripled my entry at one table and win a little at the other). Gambling suck. Poker is not gambling http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gambling I have no opinion on this thread but poker is not gambling? Better check the dictionary. I'm pretty sure poker will be much less fun and exciting without the bettings and money involved. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
not to say that i don't miss the money or have urges to play at times, i'll still play the friendly home games or whatever, but quitting and being online-poker free for a while has made me feel a lot better about life in general. that said, i have concluded that while i was technically able to be successful at it, you have to consider if psychologically able to play and learn for long periods of time. sure there are those few that have the skills and bankroll to play few hours and earn lots of money, but if you're thinking that "gee, poker's so fun to play, wouldn't it be great ot make money on something that's so fun?" you're probably in for a rude awakening, as it stops being fun and starts being work-like very, very fast. | ||
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0x64
Finland4553 Posts
This site pretty much set up the conditions to lure people into playing poker. The intention is not bad as we all know. But the fact remains. The responsability of not having underage gambler is really on the poker site and not teamliquids. Now nobody will ever know if someone who started poker because of teamliquid will have his life distroyed because of this or that and what was the limits and the external factors... Physician is just going too far. But both side are a little bit extrem. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27148 Posts
I have read every post and reply here, so bare with me. Entropy: I understand that you are worried about a popular site influencing the young. However, this site is more than just StarCraft now. This site is a community, and a high number of people that visit it and participate in the forums no longer play SC anymore. Please discuss the fact that 66% of people visiting this site over over 18, and thus fall outside of your area of concern. Part of this community is interested in Poker. You have repeatedly said that this is a StarCraft site, however that is your definition that you are applying. I completely disagree with this definition. As I said, this is a comunity. StarCraft brought us here, but as the game has aged, so has this site. It has evolved. I won't deny that the primary focus of the site will always be StarCraft, but the span of intrests covered on this site is immense. If a large segment of the community is interested in poker, than let the threads flow. However I think that your major problem is the site "officially" sanctioning poker through ads. Additionally, you ask "what does it pay for, and who does it benifit". You do not adequately discuss the fact that this is a private site owned by individuals. Could this poker money not pay for the years that it was privately funded? I happen to know Meat, and the meathod on which the site was hosted before toptalent was not pretty. Also, now that toptalent is out of the picture, hostin again costs money. Therefore, does a private site hosted by individuals that charges nothing to its visitors have a right to generate income from its traffic? Absolutely. And, because it is shown that the population of the community is overwhelmingly of legal age, the concept of fostering gambling among young people has less importance than ever. You seem to think that the banner ads here are potential responsible for luring under-age kids to play poker, but the unspoken word that you are really saying is that because top-tier SC players are talking about successes, it is THEY who will be the influence. Not the site. It is no secret that like it or not, this community makes idol's and models out of normal kids. Rekrul, Elky, Nazgul, Tillerman, Grrr... All of these people have been successful at poker and have openly talked about it. It is through THIS influence, and not the influence of the ads that will lead people to poker. Personal testimonials are a powerful motivator. Need an example? Elk and Grrr...'s website created a stir when they promised to export korean BW merchandise. It was far more successful than I would ever be because of their endorsement. The poker ads on this site constitute an endorsement of poker in your eyes, but could only be successful because of the influence of role-model players. So, should these role-model players (they are like it or not) be responsible for their actions and conduct in order to not corrupt young people? Absolutely not. They don't get paid for anything, and they have no moral obligation to control their behaviour. This site has 0 responsibility, and 0 moral obligation to anyone who chooses poker. Should an underage person want to play poker, it is the responsibility of their guardians to talk to them about it. Should an over-age person want to play, they should already recognize the risk. The staggering amount of influence that is placed upon young people today is unbelievable. Everything from smokes to booze to fashion to music to movies to poker... the list is truely endless. Again, I can only stress that the influence you speak of is the influence of BW personalities, not the influence of banner ads. Other advertising is not that successful. Today's youth automatically skips over the banner ads on a site without reading, as I do, and as I am sure you do as well. - - - - - - - Finally, I want you to discuss BW addiction. In my opinion, it is a cause for concern that is 100x more destructive than your topic purpose. In San Francisco you said that passion brought people there, but I believe there is a fine line between passion and fanaticism. Rabbit's story is not a unique one, and I would be willing to bet that 33% of the people on this site wish they had chosen to change their BW habits at one time or another. BW addiction can be a terrible thing, far more destructive for a child than losing the limited resources availible to them at a poker table. You are quoted as saying you want BW to stay alive for another 10 years, so please discuss the impact of your efforts will have on the young people of this community. | ||
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
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pfff
Belgium1352 Posts
ive put a lot of time in video games, but i always followed one important rule, that i will never break: "if i have anything else to do then playing video games, then do that". im not talking about studying btw (heh, i used to give up so much studying for BW in high school, but i always passed easily, so its ok), im talking about NEVER choosing to play a brood war when you could also be going out with friends, doing sports,... this is such an important rule, and so easy to follow. about poker, meh, its a living for some people, so why dont do it, altho i wouldnt want to make my money that way, no social interaction when youre working, a lot of stress and i really think it gets boring fast, but if you dont have an education, its better then nothing. about advertising gambling (for all the lowly skilled players poker is basically gambling), its pretty immoral, but i honestly dont care, its just a freaking brilliant move by meat and nazgul to make money, and everyone still visits this site cuz its still a great site. i honestly doubt kids will get addicted to poker here. they will put in 50$, lose it all, and then just stop doing it, if they dont stop, then its their own dumb fault, and they are probably the same kids who got addicted to SC and are now all writing down their sad life story in this thread. btw, just purely by the nature of poker, and the fact that PS/PP take a rake, there HAVE to be losing players, cuz all the money that you win, you are getting from other players. my guess is that all the money that comes from the people that put in 50$ once and then lose it, goes up the poker chain, Player A loses to B (who is better) B loses to C (who is even better),..., and Z loses the money that came from A in the beginning to peeps like travis and rekrul, and so it eventually ends up in the hands of the pro players. altho i think a lot of people on this site lie about their win/loss ratio. i mean, with a 1000$ buy-in, everyone is going to be really skilled, so you arent going to win that much, youll lose a lot too. | ||
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
And obviously thats not what you've done because from what i hear you're a really solid player. Anyway to completely contradict my previous post I was never addicted to BW. I liked it alot cause its a great game and I was always really good at it. But in retrospect there are other ways that I should have spent some of that time. Kind of like how I post here instead of working. Hmmm.... | ||
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pfff
Belgium1352 Posts
when a friend calls if i want to go play squash, and im in the middle of a game, then im always going to play squash, im not going to keep playing sc. but if i wake up on a saturday, im not going to learn how to play the freakin violin (just an example, no offense to people who actually play violin) instead of playing starcraft, altho you could say thats something better to do. sc is something to fill up dead moments, its not a hobby where you should make extra time for. | ||
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
Just wondering, what do u guys do if a friend calls while you're playing sc? I usually try to multi task, but end up taking like 30 seconds before i respond to what my buddy says. Some of my good buddys actualy say "You're playing starcraft aren't you? I'll talk to you later." to which i just kinda grunt and hang up hahaha TWISTED. from now on I'm gonna use pause alot more. | ||
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LogaiN
Sweden1073 Posts
Besides, I think people who visit Teamliquid and search the internet are pretty aware of all those kinds of banners, see it on a lot of pages throughout the web (its not like its.. "wow, there is something called poker on the internet, whats that?"). I would'nt disagree that poker is a riskful game if you cant control it, but to put a correlation between higher amounts of addicted people because of banners on this site is very exaggerating. If someone has general addiction problems, I would be as much as concerned about him playing bw as with poker, since both of them have a lot in common. Everything in the world can be dangerous in some way. Im sure your intentions are good here, but it's not that black and white you try to put it. Sure, I wouldnt mind these banners off the site, but that's not really my business either. And as manifesto says, im sure these role-models on this site contribues a lot more in increasing the interest of poker, but thats not something wrong either. They don't have the responsibility, they are only more or less discussing one of their interests. | ||
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-_-
United States7081 Posts
I am 16 years old and have never played the game seriously. If I planned on gambling I would do it, but I wouldn't do it because of some ad. I might check out he site, but if the link wasn't there I would just google search it. If I was going to gamble in an unhealthy manner I would gamble even if there were no banners. In addition, if it helps support the best SC site this side of Korea, that's just another plus. Forum's can mean alot to people... and supporting them is good. | ||
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Zer[OX]o
United States42 Posts
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Izenra
Canada679 Posts
Although I confess, TL.net did bring me to play poker, for real money, but I didn't jump on it right away like a jackass. I did some ''own initiative'' and I read a whole bunch of stuff. If you are like most people and say a commercial on TV about party-poker, and dumb 500 Us $ (Max deposite per month where I play, dunno about PP) and lost it all.... ...-----> you suck and you deserved what is happening to you,( but I like you because you bring money to me) | ||
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BadBinky
Finland649 Posts
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AnOther
565 Posts
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lastas
Sweden1219 Posts
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AnOther
565 Posts
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