EPTStarcraft and Poker - Page 8
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
And if you "get the feeling" that the post I posted was "out of jelousy" you show your nature and part of your personality. You could not be more wrong on that aspect even if you tried. But the comment does fall right in place with placing gambling adds to "your" readers for "your" benefit. The adds pay for what? The news provided in this site, much as in sg.com or any other site is the work of many many starcraft players who volunteer them without asking for anything back - including most if not all your admin writers. And yes it is then "your" resposibilty to foster gambling to some of your underaged readers. It is indeed "your" choice then. You may find any justificiation you want for it, it is "your" site and your free to do what you want. The article was good advice and in no ways a personal attack on anyone, until you brought it upon yourself as such, which is why I was surprised by "your" reaction dismissing it as "misinformation" and now "jelousy". As for me naming a victim of compulsive gambling started after clicking on one of "your" gambling adds do not worry. They will name you one day. Their fault anways, no? If they were fools enough to become compulsive gamblers shame on them, no? I am sorry I stepped over someone's financial interest. For this I apologize. I did not even know your the sole owner of this site. Now I know and now I understand. Anyways sorry it was not my intention to shake your racket. Have a happy holidays. | ||
Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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FakeSteve[TPR]
Valhalla18444 Posts
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
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Liquid`Nazgul
22427 Posts
On December 24 2004 11:57 Physician wrote: I do not work in Starcraftgamers. I left a month ago. I have been reader this forum long before I even posted at SG.com and I am starcraft player long before both - and I have played poker long before that. Starcraft does beat them all in fun. Underaged gambling is bad. Never said poker is bad. I agree. You already said this before and then I agreed as well. And if you "get the feeling" that the post I posted was "out of jelousy" you show your nature and part of your personality. You could not be more wrong on that aspect even if you tried. But the comment does fall right in place with placing gambling adds to "your" readers for "your" benefit. I don't think you know me very well. This site has been online for years now. I have probably put more time in making this site to what it is than anyone else. Why did I do this? For 2 years all this site did for me (*financially*) is that Meat and I (we're co-owners of this site) had to put money in it so that you guys (that includes you) could enjoy what I hoped to become the best and most infuential StarCraft site around. Rarely has anyone ever thanked either of us, and you know what; that's all good. I know there's thousands of visitors enjoying it every day, and knowing this has always been enough. The poker adds do indeed benefit me as well and selfish as I am I'd say that's a good thing. I've already explained why I don't think it is immoral to have them, but you keep circling around my words avoiding any actual confrontation of what I'm saying. Poker has helped alot of people, just like SC has. Both have also done harm (though through TL I don't know any poker case) and yet here we are offering daily SC updates. The adds pay for what? The news provided in this site, much as in sg.com or any other site is the work of many many starcraft players who volunteer them without asking for anything back - including most if not all your admin writers. And yes it is then "your" resposibilty to foster gambling to some of your underaged readers. It is indeed "your" choice then. I guess the adds are going to pay for my new porsche. Is it also my responsibility to make sure none of you play SC too much? Devote too much time to it? Because I guarantee you that SC is doing much more harm to the lifes of this community that that poker is doing. Maybe you should go make a rant against playing SC. You may find any justificiation you want for it, it is "your" site and your free to do what you want. The article was good advice and in no ways a personal attack on anyone, until you brought it upon yourself as such, which is why I was surprised by "your" reaction dismissing it as "misinformation" and now "jelousy". As already said your post brough up an important issue definitely worth discussing, however at the same time YOUR post was horrible and full of missinformation. Now everyone is entitled to their own opinion but it is owed to them that they are provided with CORRECT statements and facts so that they can form and judge everything properly. As for me naming a victim of compulsive gambling started after clicking on one of "your" gambling adds do not worry. They will name you one day. Their fault anways, no? If they were fools enough to become compulsive gamblers shame on them, no? Yes that would be their fault, however I'd feel partially responsible for it at the same time. Just as I would feel partially responsible for crashing into someone with my car, no matter how big of a mistake he made by violating traffic rules that caused the accident to happen. I am sorry I stepped over someone's financial interest. For this I apologize. I did not even know your the sole owner of this site. Now I know and now I understand. Anyways sorry it was not my intention to shake your racket. Yea it indeed is hardly your business. You have not paid for a service and we are what I would think to be something great to the StarCraft community. After puttiing in so much time I still have to deal with shit like this. Meat and I started and own this website. This is a fact that stands even though all decisions are democratically decided among all staff members. | ||
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Physician
United States4146 Posts
Was it, really? No more need be said then. I see that you have understood my point and I am glad it was read by most. | ||
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ProudCappi
United States366 Posts
Do you blame the televisions station that advertise McDonald's for making people fat? | ||
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Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
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scrapperdog
United States779 Posts
On December 23 2004 23:37 Daishi wrote: Poker is only gambling if you are no good at it. I played for a living for a year. I played a third of a million hands, and consistently won. That is not luck. I may not be the best player around, but I'm certainly in the top couple of percent, and I'm there because I know an awful lot about the game, and I understand how to make money at it. 85% of poker players lose. 10% break even. 5% win. Many of the Starcraft players who claim they win are actually breaking even, and some are losing. That's the nature of the game - it's based purely in the long term (so as to avoid statistical variation), and so short term wins can convince you that you can beat the game when you cannot You are responsible for your own actions. I think more than 5% win ... probably 70% lose, 10 % break even and 20% win ,,, the break even point for me was over pretty quick went something like this first 2 months - lost 3rd month - broke even 4th month to present- won In my opinion 1 in 5 players are winners, not 1 in 20 ... ppl do lie about being winners but I have won well over a grand above what i lost when i started and i am not in the top 5% of players, not even close. | ||
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(orky)oTTeR
France180 Posts
On December 22 2004 23:55 Legionnaire wrote: Oh drug users, another section of the populace i like to see throw their lives away! I dont really ahve any problems with them advertising it, its all about self control. If you dont have enough of it then you are going to do some bad things in life, better to get it over now when you dont have as much to lose and learn your lesson then to fuck up later. If noone had self control everyone would be going around raping girls, killing ppl and doing moronicly stupid things just because they can. Its a personality flaw that is going to be exploited anyway for those with week self control. Its like when you are a kid, and your dad gives you your first taste of beer and you hate it, it leaves a good impression on you for ages, of course you will go with friends and start drinking when you grow up but it still... damn it i had an awesome point with this but i forgot... fucghadfogihadfg okay i sat here for 3 mins thinking, and i THINK it was something about gradually being introduced to something you are more likely to have more understanding about it and to be ab le to control yourself better. Just think of TL as providing this introductory course into monetary issues for teenagers. Free of charge! hmm my original idea was better though.. damn it. You're not a very smart person. | ||
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Cresfy
Israel977 Posts
btw i dont think your signature is gonna help much :X | ||
Legionnaire
Australia4514 Posts
On January 20 2005 03:28 (orky)oTTeR wrote: You're not a very smart person. Fortunately for me i dont really give a damn what you think. So, cheers big ears  Oh yeah, dont bring up old topics again, unless you are going to add some substance to it. | ||
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Ghardo
Germany1685 Posts
Over the years I developed a standpoint where I regard things more sober and accept the past as it is and something I chose out of my free will which is after all what makes out individuality.(note: this is only a description of the negative sides of online gaming, the positive ones like making friends, opinion exchange etc. you all know  ) And though it sometimes was just all fucked up, it was what made me come to certain realizations and that's why I also stopped regretting that time, which is pointless after all, as we are living in the present. But ... when I hear that someone preaches how bad gambling is etc. and what it can lead to (which is obviously not wrong - but it's more the "what it can lead to in certain cases" ) and gives starcraft as an alternative I have EXTREMELY MIXED FEELINGS with that. It's of course enjoyable to a limited extent, but it's so easy to overstep the mark and ending up being totally addicted which leads to personal tragedies like the one described above. Being addicted to starcraft and having all the sideeffects of it may be better than to lose a lot of money by gambling, as money is what dominates our society, but it isn't a good advice either if you ask me. If you want to give good advice, say "Don't gamble - Spend time with your family and friends". I don't have the claim to confirm anyone in his/her view of these things or on the contrary indirectly critizising anyone for his way of life with what i wrote. It's just my subjective experience and as I'm a very sensitive person this might affect me more than others who don't have a clue of what i'm talking. | ||
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nullmind
1303 Posts
On December 23 2004 14:03 Izenra wrote: 1- True i just began poker and i read stuff for like 2 month about it. You just gotta be wise when entering something new. So far i made 35 buck in 3 sesion, 2 hour. NL HE 10 entry .05/.1 2- I think that poker is less addictive(for me) than starcraft used to be. After 2 and a half hour it become hard to kept focus ( even tho i tripled my entry at one table and win a little at the other). Gambling suck. Poker is not gambling http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=gambling I have no opinion on this thread but poker is not gambling? Better check the dictionary. I'm pretty sure poker will be much less fun and exciting without the bettings and money involved. | ||
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36374 Posts
not to say that i don't miss the money or have urges to play at times, i'll still play the friendly home games or whatever, but quitting and being online-poker free for a while has made me feel a lot better about life in general. that said, i have concluded that while i was technically able to be successful at it, you have to consider if psychologically able to play and learn for long periods of time. sure there are those few that have the skills and bankroll to play few hours and earn lots of money, but if you're thinking that "gee, poker's so fun to play, wouldn't it be great ot make money on something that's so fun?" you're probably in for a rude awakening, as it stops being fun and starts being work-like very, very fast. | ||
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0x64
Finland4550 Posts
This site pretty much set up the conditions to lure people into playing poker. The intention is not bad as we all know. But the fact remains. The responsability of not having underage gambler is really on the poker site and not teamliquids. Now nobody will ever know if someone who started poker because of teamliquid will have his life distroyed because of this or that and what was the limits and the external factors... Physician is just going too far. But both side are a little bit extrem. | ||
Manifesto7
Osaka27146 Posts
I have read every post and reply here, so bare with me. Entropy: I understand that you are worried about a popular site influencing the young. However, this site is more than just StarCraft now. This site is a community, and a high number of people that visit it and participate in the forums no longer play SC anymore. Please discuss the fact that 66% of people visiting this site over over 18, and thus fall outside of your area of concern. Part of this community is interested in Poker. You have repeatedly said that this is a StarCraft site, however that is your definition that you are applying. I completely disagree with this definition. As I said, this is a comunity. StarCraft brought us here, but as the game has aged, so has this site. It has evolved. I won't deny that the primary focus of the site will always be StarCraft, but the span of intrests covered on this site is immense. If a large segment of the community is interested in poker, than let the threads flow. However I think that your major problem is the site "officially" sanctioning poker through ads. Additionally, you ask "what does it pay for, and who does it benifit". You do not adequately discuss the fact that this is a private site owned by individuals. Could this poker money not pay for the years that it was privately funded? I happen to know Meat, and the meathod on which the site was hosted before toptalent was not pretty. Also, now that toptalent is out of the picture, hostin again costs money. Therefore, does a private site hosted by individuals that charges nothing to its visitors have a right to generate income from its traffic? Absolutely. And, because it is shown that the population of the community is overwhelmingly of legal age, the concept of fostering gambling among young people has less importance than ever. You seem to think that the banner ads here are potential responsible for luring under-age kids to play poker, but the unspoken word that you are really saying is that because top-tier SC players are talking about successes, it is THEY who will be the influence. Not the site. It is no secret that like it or not, this community makes idol's and models out of normal kids. Rekrul, Elky, Nazgul, Tillerman, Grrr... All of these people have been successful at poker and have openly talked about it. It is through THIS influence, and not the influence of the ads that will lead people to poker. Personal testimonials are a powerful motivator. Need an example? Elk and Grrr...'s website created a stir when they promised to export korean BW merchandise. It was far more successful than I would ever be because of their endorsement. The poker ads on this site constitute an endorsement of poker in your eyes, but could only be successful because of the influence of role-model players. So, should these role-model players (they are like it or not) be responsible for their actions and conduct in order to not corrupt young people? Absolutely not. They don't get paid for anything, and they have no moral obligation to control their behaviour. This site has 0 responsibility, and 0 moral obligation to anyone who chooses poker. Should an underage person want to play poker, it is the responsibility of their guardians to talk to them about it. Should an over-age person want to play, they should already recognize the risk. The staggering amount of influence that is placed upon young people today is unbelievable. Everything from smokes to booze to fashion to music to movies to poker... the list is truely endless. Again, I can only stress that the influence you speak of is the influence of BW personalities, not the influence of banner ads. Other advertising is not that successful. Today's youth automatically skips over the banner ads on a site without reading, as I do, and as I am sure you do as well. - - - - - - - Finally, I want you to discuss BW addiction. In my opinion, it is a cause for concern that is 100x more destructive than your topic purpose. In San Francisco you said that passion brought people there, but I believe there is a fine line between passion and fanaticism. Rabbit's story is not a unique one, and I would be willing to bet that 33% of the people on this site wish they had chosen to change their BW habits at one time or another. BW addiction can be a terrible thing, far more destructive for a child than losing the limited resources availible to them at a poker table. You are quoted as saying you want BW to stay alive for another 10 years, so please discuss the impact of your efforts will have on the young people of this community. | ||
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SCFraser
Canada1534 Posts
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