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TMNT
3415 Posts
On June 01 2026 07:16 Kraekkling wrote: maybe we can contact them and ask them to do exactly what TMNT would want them to do? Don't need anyone to tell them to put the buildings in the right spots though. That goes without saying. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10627 Posts
On June 01 2026 06:14 jinjin5000 wrote: I mean, then nothing's gonna resolve this then. People were arguing over pulling workers to natural at 1st ling runby ASAP and that's what they did. It's not ideal but it at least resolves question on if FlaSh was very ahead if he pulled to natural or that if he gg'd too early. I guess what we should be asking is: is pulling to the natural better than what FlaSh ultimately did which was to try to fight in the main? Does it give him a higher % chance of winning? The question should be made based on the expected value of the decision. Pulling to the natural is correct if it gives FlaSh a better % chance of winning over fighting in the main. TemuSoma says it's probably 70:30, so we have to ask what is the probability if FlaSh tried to fight in the main? Every pro basically says that you need to fight in the main because losing mining in the main is too detrimental to Terran. But can you even hold the main, is it even possible? Watching the replays, it definitely does seem like it's difficult for Terran if we evacuate because Zerg is saving the 2 drones using the lings to tank, then using like 10 speedlings to really pressure Terran initially until Terran can build a significant force. So I'll concede that I was wrong that Terran is ahead if he pulls to the natural. Mutas are indeed fast and Terran doesn't have a strong enough eco to get everything he needed. I will say that I do agree with TT1 that there's been so much analysis over the position that both players are definitely not going to play in the exact same way as the Soma or FlaSh would've played from that position IF FlaSh had made the call to evacuate to the natural immediately. Good games and experiment though, I'll take the L on my position that Terran would've been ahead. | ||
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TT1
Canada10110 Posts
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GTR
51713 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4203 Posts
On June 01 2026 11:24 GTR wrote: thinking about it now this massive debate people are having takes me back to the huge discourse on "who won between flash vs jaedong after the power outage" situation we had in 2009, what times. I thought that game was pretty clear , like 9.5:1 odds that JD had won that game. | ||
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Vasoline73
United States8203 Posts
On June 01 2026 12:50 Dante08 wrote: I thought that game was pretty clear , like 9.5:1 odds that JD had won that game. At the time it was a huge argument. Tho I agree most said JD had a large advantage, people argued about it for months on TL lol. ————— Also, if that G7 simulation can't even get the rax placement correct why should anyone take its results seriously? You’re supposed to be trying to recreate the game state as it was… having the rax in the wrong spot doubles the gap for run-bys. If they got this obvious detail wrong, what else did they get wrong? | ||
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Malinor
Germany4759 Posts
On June 01 2026 13:21 Vasoline73 wrote: At the time it was a huge argument. Tho I agree most said JD had a large advantage, people argued about it for months on TL lol. ————— It still hurts me to this day. I think it was like 9:1 Jaedong favored, but still I believe a repeat of the map would have been the correct decision. There was just no good outcome after what happened. I basically hate it because it robbed Jaedong of one of his most brilliant victories. That map was so heavily Terran favored, he already lost his 3rd and came back. That was so extremely unlikely. 17 year old wounds, god help me. | ||
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Navane
Netherlands2763 Posts
The next game they do on melee indeed, and there the terran makes the bunker on the wrong spot. Weird. Then they replay the game. I think this is the "first game" jinjin refers to. Then they play a game where both the bunker is too far left and the rax is too far up and zerg gets way more lings into the main. I'm starting to think the guys who are playing these games are mentally on the same level as the people arguing in this thread. So zerg gets 6 lings into the main. Then suicides them to kill an scv or a marine in the nat mineral line. One ling escapes back into the main, so terran opens his wall to chase it, letting six more in. After all this delay, he gets mutad to death in his main. Consequent games are played with bunker too far left and rax too far up, resulting in way more lings getting in. Worse than useless, these games. Goes for a 2rax stim push, without medics. Stims twice. Next game, very similar, but now he has 2 medics to go with his stim push. Except he leaves one at home stuck on some scv. He ggs out once he has a couple of valkyrie but zerg is on 3 gas with defilers. | ||
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TMNT
3415 Posts
On June 01 2026 19:03 Navane wrote: terran opens his wall to chase it, letting six more in. Goes for a 2rax stim push, without medics. Stims twice. Except he leaves one at home stuck on some scv. He ggs out once he has a couple of valkyrie but zerg is on 3 gas with defilers.  Thanks for the report, as I only watched up to the wall part. 70:30 seems like an understatement from TemuSoma with the Terran player playing like this. TT1 is probably right. This kind of "simulation" relies a lot on the quality of the players, and each time they make a decision, or a mistake, we branch into a new alternative scenario. | ||
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Xenixx
United States553 Posts
On June 01 2026 13:21 Vasoline73 wrote: On June 01 2026 12:50 Dante08 wrote: On June 01 2026 11:24 GTR wrote: The only interesting part of a simulation run like this is to see if the position is playable by the Terran. If it's playable then you can eek out a win, and if you can eek out a win then Flash made a poor decision to bet the entire game on defending the main with just scvs, ergo, he gg'd too early. If you're the type of person who takes low ranked ladder players games' in this position as some set in stone unassailable position then I'm sorry to inform you, you don't know half as much about this game as you think you do. I don't really have a problem with 70:30 from that position, and I have been totally consistent on this issue. Terran is behind here and has to play from behind the entire game, getting lucky with some decisive moves to hopefully eek out a win in this spot. For those of you who have never spoken to real people out in the streets, eek is like, a 10% win rate, it's small. It's game 7 of the last ASL you may ever play, shouldn't you take the hail mary option? For the fans, the viewers, it could make a very interesting game, something we've never seen before regardless of whether or not you're favored to win in this spot. Play the mess you made. | ||
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Jealous
10420 Posts
On June 01 2026 22:39 Xenixx wrote: The only interesting part of a simulation run like this is to see if the position is playable by the Terran. If it's playable then you can eek out a win, and if you can eek out a win then Flash made a poor decision to bet the entire game on defending the main with just scvs, ergo, he gg'd too early. If you're the type of person who takes low ranked ladder players games' in this position as some set in stone unassailable position then I'm sorry to inform you, you don't know half as much about this game as you think you do. I don't really have a problem with 70:30 from that position, and I have been totally consistent on this issue. Terran is behind here and has to play from behind the entire game, getting lucky with some decisive moves to hopefully eek out a win in this spot. For those of you who have never spoken to real people out in the streets, eek is like, a 10% win rate, it's small. It's game 7 of the last ASL you may ever play, shouldn't you take the hail mary option? For the fans, the viewers, it could make a very interesting game, something we've never seen before regardless of whether or not you're favored to win in this spot. Play the mess you made. Brother, I'm sorry, I wasn't going to say anything but you keep repeating the exact same talking point like a parrot which is basically par for the course here but you're also writing "eek" over and over, every time, throughout these posts and it finally broke me. The word you're looking for is "eke". Furthermore, I was curious about your anecdotal social experiment ("...to real people out in the streets, eek is like, a 10% win rate, it's small") and according to AI/Google that number is actually 50% because to "eke out a win" is to "win by a small margin" meaning that it was basically 50/50 leading up to that moment, so basically a one point basketball game where the teams are 120-119, for example. So, not only are you spelling the word incorrectly, you are also misusing it, all while repeating the same subjective-ass opinion every time. Please, have mercy. PS: Terms closer to what you seem to mean would be a comeback, reversal, come-from-behind, turnaround, rally, etc. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands5999 Posts
I imagine Flash won't talk about this for a long time? How long did it take him to talk about pull the plug FvJ? Did he ever? Since Flash has such bad rep, talking about this will spark new coin talk. He really blew it big time not being able to win it all and donate the ASL prizemoney to wash off some of his bad rep. Previous paragraph also makes me think of a Snow vlog jinjin translated some time ago (I don't even remember which ASL. Previous ASL?) where he doesn't even talk about what ifs and thus doesn't undermine his opponent's achievement. That was very nice sportmanship even though I would have loved him to do otherwise as much as I wanted Flash to not be stubborn about trying to keep the main. If Flash had mined the nat and still lost, would we have had a debate like this? And what would have shoutcasters said then about Flash's decision making? Probably not the to first and to the latter,: it would have been very similar with the majority of the pros saying Flash did the right thing, because they don't dare second guess the guy they got humbled by over and over. Now shall we revisit Effort's reaction? Kinda ironic, isn't it? | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1032 Posts
On June 01 2026 23:05 Peeano wrote: It's hilarious the bad testing and Flash staying quiet just fuel this debate more. I imagine Flash won't talk about this for a long time? How long did it take him to talk about pull the plug FvJ? Did he ever? Since Flash has such bad rep, talking about this will spark new coin talk. He really blew it big time not being able to win it all and donate the ASL prizemoney to wash off some of his bad rep. Do we still think we're getting ASL22 after this scandal? Feels like there's a big, dark cloud looming over the tournament atm... I would hate for the other players to be affected by this. | ||
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Peeano
Netherlands5999 Posts
On June 02 2026 00:26 Freezard wrote: Do we still think we're getting ASL22 after this scandal? Feels like there's a big, dark cloud looming over the tournament atm... I would hate for the other players to be affected by this. Why wouldn't we get ASL22? The coin gate scandal happened years ago, but apparently many Koreans (and foreigners) still hate Flash for it. Why else would Flash even think about donating the prize pool money had he won if it wasn't still a relevant topic after his apology? This is speculation at best, but I would not be surprised if that promised donation by Flash was a condition ASL set for Flash to allow his participation after years of laying low. Anyway Flash can still donate his 2nd place prize money the same. It wouldn't be bad for him to do a nice vlog about it and also credit Soma for his victory and say he hopes people can stop bitching about game 7 and just praise Soma for the win (regardless of what Flash thinks on the matter and thus follow Snow's example). While the prospect of Flash doing that wouldn't give a satisfying closure to the game 7 debate, I think it's about the best move Flash can make now and then focus on recovery and fixing his terrible posture before giving BW another go, if at all. And if Flash still needs more money at this point he could still make decent money coaching/streaming. | ||
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Xenixx
United States553 Posts
On June 01 2026 23:03 Jealous wrote: Brother, I'm sorry, I wasn't going to say anything but you keep repeating the exact same talking point like a parrot which is basically par for the course here but you're also writing "eek" over and over, every time, throughout these posts and it finally broke me. The word you're looking for is "eke". Furthermore, I was curious about your anecdotal social experiment ("...to real people out in the streets, eek is like, a 10% win rate, it's small") and according to AI/Google that number is actually 50% because to "eke out a win" is to "win by a small margin" meaning that it was basically 50/50 leading up to that moment, so basically a one point basketball game where the teams are 120-119, for example. So, not only are you spelling the word incorrectly, you are also misusing it, all while repeating the same subjective-ass opinion every time. Please, have mercy. PS: Terms closer to what you seem to mean would be a comeback, reversal, come-from-behind, turnaround, rally, etc. Is it? I don't think I've ever typed that word out before now, so, good times, that'll happen. But on your other point, so FYI, dictionaries aren't authoritative. I've never heard anyone use the term to describe a coin toss. I think you're way off base with that idea, and, are in desperate need of talking to real people, not AI. When we use the term eke, it means to barely win, which is also covered by the dictionaries and exactly how I was using it. You can also tell by the context. Eke To obtain with difficulty | ||
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Xenixx
United States553 Posts
On June 01 2026 23:05 Peeano wrote: It's hilarious the bad testing and Flash staying quiet just fuel this debate more. But if this is what it takes to forget about ZvP balance for some time, and top of that getting a Grudgematch out of it. It ain't all that bad. I imagine Flash won't talk about this for a long time? How long did it take him to talk about pull the plug FvJ? Did he ever? Since Flash has such bad rep, talking about this will spark new coin talk. He really blew it big time not being able to win it all and donate the ASL prizemoney to wash off some of his bad rep. Previous paragraph also makes me think of a Snow vlog jinjin translated some time ago (I don't even remember which ASL. Previous ASL?) where he doesn't even talk about what ifs and thus doesn't undermine his opponent's achievement. That was very nice sportmanship even though I would have loved him to do otherwise as much as I wanted Flash to not be stubborn about trying to keep the main. If Flash had mined the nat and still lost, would we have had a debate like this? And would have shoutcasters said then about Flash's decision making? Probably not the to first and to the latter,: it would have been very similar with the majority of the pros saying Flash did the right thing, because they don't dare second guess the guy they got humbled by over and over. Now shall we revisit Effort's reaction? Kinda ironic, isn't it? To your point, I was just recommended this video, and, didn't watch it but read through a lot of the comments. That's largely the gist of the situation here with Korean fans I'm getting from the comments. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jnVCuLsSBg This discussion has been so tame compared to what's apparently going on elsewhere. | ||
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TMNT
3415 Posts
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Jealous
10420 Posts
On June 02 2026 03:41 Xenixx wrote: Is it? I don't think I've ever typed that word out before now, so, good times, that'll happen. But on your other point, so FYI, dictionaries aren't authoritative. I've never heard anyone use the term to describe a coin toss. I think you're way off base with that idea, and, are in desperate need of talking to real people, not AI. When we use the term eke, it means to barely win, which is also covered by the dictionaries and exactly how I was using it. You can also tell by the context. Eke To obtain with difficulty Yes, my apologies, I'm sure your erudite social environment "on the streets" is the authority on what the English words you can't spell mean. Although, I want to point out that winning 120-119 is "barely winning" and not the 10% chance of winning you're trying to describe. But, let's set semantics aside. Let's get to what I find to be the heart of the issue I have with your opinion: FlaSh has been playing StarCraft for your free entertainment for 20 years, is the undisputed GOAT and "God" of the game, played through numerous surgeries, and found himself in what he thought to be a losing situation. He doesn't owe you 3 more minutes of floundering around when he feels the game is lost, despite what you think you or the fans are entitled to, which could hypothetically bring greater embarrassment down the line. In fact, he doesn't owe you anything at all. | ||
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BaiZhuZhu
19 Posts
On May 31 2026 06:08 KwarK wrote: I think he’s missing the point a lot there on game 7. The rax wasn’t flashing and the CC was. There were zerglings in his main mineral line, he wasn’t mining, he had 150 mins. He spent that 150 on two scvs and an aborted rax, 0 marines. yes; very very weird decision making | ||
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Xenixx
United States553 Posts
On June 02 2026 08:58 Jealous wrote: Yes, my apologies, I'm sure your erudite social environment "on the streets" is the authority on what the English words you can't spell mean. Although, I want to point out that winning 120-119 is "barely winning" and not the 10% chance of winning you're trying to describe. But, let's set semantics aside. Let's get to what I find to be the heart of the issue I have with your opinion: FlaSh has been playing StarCraft for your free entertainment for 20 years, is the undisputed GOAT and "God" of the game, played through numerous surgeries, and found himself in what he thought to be a losing situation. He doesn't owe you 3 more minutes of floundering around when he feels the game is lost, despite what you think you or the fans are entitled to, which could hypothetically bring greater embarrassment down the line. In fact, he doesn't owe you anything at all. Yes, dictionaries only describe how words are used by people, common usage. AKA, you know, on the streets. Why don't you ask your friend Google AI about it instead? Feels like we're back in high school in here but you people are no doubt in your late 20's or early 30's. How embarrassing... | ||
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